TLSSH; Raditz(Composite DBZ/DBM):
vs
SirFizzWhizz; Invincible and Atom Eve:
Rules:
- Standard CaV rules, only the two debaters may provide arguments/feats.
- In-character.
- Win condition is death.
Location: Cell Games Arena
CaV: Raditz(TLSSH) vs Invincible/Atom Eve(SirFizzWhizz)
@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk: Start this off by saying the obvious. This is a match that will have Invincible start by rushing, and Eve putting up her shields to support however she can.
Your character will have a hard time dealing with Atom Eve once her shields are up, and she can wear it like a armor.
Invincible on the other hand will speed blitz and start the fight right.
As seen from all this, Mark is more than speed wise able to keep up. The real argument now is if Raditz can deal with both foes, and even harm or put down Mark and Eve. Their is also the argument of Marks strength, and Eves piercing attacks that can end Radits pretty quick if he is tag by either. Raditz strength feats are lacking pretty badly, and not sure why you thought he could take a hit from New 52 Superman at all originally.
First, I'd like to get some basic stuff about DBZ out of the way.
- Physical augmentation and Ki "superiority":
As you can see below, A SSJ Goku is able to block all of Trunk's attacks with a sword with one finger(despite Trunks slicing Frieza to bits earlier). This is because they can use their ki(energy) to augment their physical strength. This is why people like Goku and Trunks can injure/kill people like Frieza in H2H combat despite not having that strength at their base level(As currently even Bills found it unbelievable that Goku had defeated Frieza when he saw him in his standard form).:
*Start at 1:50*
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Trunks slicing up Frieza:
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Another thing you need to understand is that people who have more ki are inherently superior to those who have less in practically every way despite not having outside feats to suggest it(E.g. Goku has never destroyed a planet, yet constantly fights people who are on a planetary level). I know people don't like power-scaling and prefer on-panel feats of something happening, but, in DBZ that's just the way it is and is how the series progresses(E.g. Stronger villain appears, training occurs to meet their power, big fight/victory, repeat).
For example, Vegeta meeting Cui on Namek. Before this encounter it was said they were pretty much equals with Vegeta being on the lower side. However, after his fight on Earth, Vegeta got considerably stronger... enough to make Qui incapable of even harming him:
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And then he would go on to do the same to Dodoria:
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Anyway, I really just wanted some like that in the thread for basic understanding. Now, onto Raditz!
I'm going to be talking about Base form Raditz in this post:
As most know, Raditz was easily capable of holding his own with Piccolo and Goku at the same time.
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What you have to remember is that those two were easily the strongest beings on Earth at the time Raditz arrived, and were about equal to each other in power(with Goku being a decent amount stronger). Why am I pointing this out? Because even early DBZ Piccolo had the power to destroy the moon:
*0:28*
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No, but really;
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And as I mentioned with power-scaling above, Goku should easily be able to replicate the feat..and so...:
Raditz catches it with his bare hands. That's right, moon-level destruction might as well be tickling to even DBZ Raditz.:
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**I'd also like to point out that the blast Piccolo had made reached the moon within a few seconds, just for an added speed feat**
Now, lets move on to some DBM, at least base DBM Raditz anyway..~
**I'd like to point out that the below is referring to Raditz in his base form**
Raditz could boast. In his universe, like many others, the last Saiyan's, driven by his brother, had become thousands of times more powerful than what was considered as an elite. His father, who had pushed himself for his whole life to reach the average of the elite, was pathetic in comparison. He decided to take points as of reference that he was sure they understand: Freeza's army. Although reduced to nothing in most of the participants universe, he had understood that the latter was still present fifty years ago in most of them.
But as Raditz knew he was inferior to that of Freeza in final form, he avoided lying, and sought the men who were much weaker.
"My power is way better than Freeza's elite and Ginyu's squad. I can squash you with one finger!" He shouted before correcting himself. "But I am going to take time..."
Novelization Part 13 Chapter 64
http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/fanfic_dbm_en/chapter-64.html
At base, DBM Raditz is stronger than the Ginyu Force. Why is this impressive? Because many people below them are already planet-level:
Examples:
Vegeta:
Destroys Planet Arlia:
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Tries to destroy Earth(However, Goku stops him):
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King Vegeta:
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Yet Recoome alone was enough to handle Vegeta with somewhat ease( he was essentially playing with him the entire time):
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This would make planet busting child's play for even base Raditz.
This Raditz also doesn't play around, unless there's a reason to it(as he was going to to humiliate his father). Here we can see Raditz going straight for the blitz as soon as he saw Goku was going to fight:
Think I'll leave it at that for now, I'll get into his other stuff in the next post~
@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk:
Power Scaling
Alright, lets address the elephant in the room, and I am kinda sad you went this rout. I was hoping this be a feat battle, and not power scaling argument yet again. Well I disagree with the "Casual Planet Busters" argument and here is why.
There is TONS and TONS of threads why Power Scaling does not work, and is never used after the Frieza Saga, its because it means nothing. Where was the power levels in Cell Saga? Buu Saga? Bills movie? They do not exist nor ever mention again. There is more proof of their inaccuracies.
You claim people with power levels of say 9000 can one shot planets right? Nappa had in the filler.
Yet here Frieza with a power level of over a million cannot one shot Namek. He claims he held too much back, but even then he states he destroyed the core. Why not bust it like Nappa did? Why not bust it like Buu did? How can someone with a power level 1,000,000 fail to do what power level of 9000 less can do? Why aim for the core at all? Aiming for the core suggest alone he cannot blow up the mass of a planet with raw power, he could have blasted the surface of the planet to rubble, thus destroying the atmosphere for the same effect, and call it a day. But instead he target the core which is a structural weak point of any planet.
Add to this, Frieza and Goku by your logic of power scaling are multiple planet busters, yet they hurled every energy attack at each other, and yet.... the planet that was already breaking apart did not become destroyed from the planet busting energies. They themselves where being harmed by mountain level blasts and attacks to boot!
Goku does this attack aimed at harming Frieza, and the damage added up for Frieza look anything Planetary? Multiple Planetary? They are 100 planet busters by power scaling, how does this kick add any damage to Frieza in a dragged out battle?
In short, you cannot really accurately use power scaling, nor state guys well well well below Frieza in power level can blow up a planet the size of earth easy, unless they target say the core. No who else took out a planet by flying through the core? Invincible, Omni Man, and the weak Thaddeus.
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They also tank the planet explosion after hurling their bodies at light speed through the planet. Then continue fighting well after the explosions.
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They also rearrange mountain areas with strength alone. Conquests dragged through the mountains and slammed through the mountains did no damage, Marks choking did.
Heck Marks headbutting > to the mountain that was canaled.
The best part is you relate Ki to strength which is contradicted as well.
Raditz at best is a 40 toner since this far superior Goku by Buu saga is only a 40 toner.
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Mark was benching 400 tons in his weaker days. This was when he first started training, and like Sayain, Viltrumites get stronger the more they are pushed to the edge, which is why they are a warrior like race themselves. Yes, yes, Goku and such can kick mountains apart, its striking damage for sure, but at the same time, thats only striking feats. Their bodies are not tanking something like Invincible whose own strikes can mush planet explosion level beings with his fists alone.
So all in all what does feats tell about Raditz? Energy projection, fast speed on the light level since they react to energy attacks that move at those speeds, I can give ya that one, and durability to tank mountain level hits. But using power scaling when its inaccurate, flawed, and has never been used ever again since the Cell Sage through to the recent canon movies. For good reason it seems, its flawed lol.
Now back to the fight.
I see Raditz being matched completely by Invincible in speed. I showed the speed feats already as that is crucial here. Now the argument is can Mark avoid or tank moon+ level blasts till he gets up close and mushes Raditz body. Its a argument as to what Eve brigs to the table to match or help with.
Invincible can indeed keep up, and Eve while does not have the speed ability, will provide major support in any way when the two stop moving. Whenerver Mark pins or grapples with Raditz is a perfect example for Eve to have a chance to shine with her Viltrumite+ level powers. Either way Mark alone is enough to win, and any help from Eve puts him well over the edge.
There is TONS and TONS of threads why Power Scaling does not work, and is never used after the Frieza Saga, its because it means nothing. Where was the power levels in Cell Saga? Buu Saga? Bills movie? They do not exist nor ever mention again. There is more proof of their inaccuracies.
I'm not using "Power levels". While power-levels are outdated and pretty irrelevant, as even their purpose was to show how unreliable they are, I'm going by the "ABC logic" that is constantly shown throughout the series. It's a common thing in the show and is it's main formula for continuing.
Strong villain appears or is on the move. The heroes, the Z-fighters, train and become more powerful than the villain. Villain is defeated in a drawn out battle or a quick one depending on how powerful they became. New, stronger villain appears. Cycle repeats.
For example, the Andorids Lapus and Lazuli. They dominated the Z-Fighters when they first appeared, but they don't actually show the feats to put them on someone like Frieza's level, who has shown planet busting capabilities. So, if just fighting the Z-Warriors is all they did, how can we compare the obviously stronger character who doesn't have the flashy on-panel feats that someone like Frieza has? Power-scaling. As I said, I'm not talking about power-levels or their ridiculous calculation scaling. I'm talking about who is stronger than who.
For example;
Trunks fodderized Frieza with the utmost ease. The same Trunks was effectively fodderized by one of the androids. It's because of this we can see the hierarchy of power despite the lack of feats for a given character. Because really, if we went solely with on-panel feats without reasoning, Frieza would be equal to Buu in terms of power(which he clearly isn't).
You claim people with power levels of say 9000 can one shot planets right? Nappa had in the filler.
Again, I said nothing of power-levels. I'm simply going by who's higher in the food chain.
Yet here Frieza with a power level of over a million cannot one shot Namek. He claims he held too much back, but even then he states he destroyed the core. Why not bust it like Nappa did? Why not bust it like Buu did? How can someone with a power level 1,000,000 fail to do what power level of 9000 less can do? Why aim for the core at all? Aiming for the core suggest alone he cannot blow up the mass of a planet with raw power, he could have blasted the surface of the planet to rubble, thus destroying the atmosphere for the same effect, and call it a day. But instead he target the core which is a structural weak point of any planet.
Honestly I have nothing to say to this, as to me it seems like PIS. We've seen him effortlessly destroy planets as well as other characters. The only reason I can see him not being able to destroy it is because it would have been an easy loss on Goku's part, which Toriyama simply can't have. There is no logical reason to why the planet didn't break.
The best part is you relate Ki to strength which is contradicted as well.
Please don't try to low-ball, you don't see me trying to find the weakest scans I can use to represent a character. Even Kid Goku has done stuff way beyond 40 tons...
For example, moving a decent sized boulder:
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Or the larger boulder:
I could go on, but I hope that you get the idea. Don't go for the absolute lowest scans possible.
Sorry this is all I'm posting for now, I'll try to have some more up later or tomorrow. Also, sorry for being so slow.
@sirfizzwhizz: Okay, lets revive this old guy! Seeing as my last post addressed half of your post(the parts concerning power-scaling/misrepresentation), I'll address the rest of it with this one:
They also rearrange mountain areas with strength alone. Conquests dragged through the mountains and slammed through the mountains did no damage, Marks choking did.
Stuff like this can be said for most of DBZ fights, having the power to casually warp the land with their power output, for example Raditz on Helior shows a simple energy blast can waste the city(This takes place about 6 months after Raditz picks Goku up from Earth):
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They also tank the planet explosion after hurling their bodies at light speed through the planet. Then continue fighting well after the explosions.
That's an impressive one for durability, I'll give you that much. Though, as you said, it required more than just Invincible to accomplish the destructive part of that feat... which I previously have shown, all other planet busts from my side have been solo. Also, can I get some context as to what happened directly after that last scan? From what I see, it seems like they're all, if not most, are knocked out?
Some more showings for Raditz:
Takes multiple blasts from Helior elite:
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Keep in mind, previously it only took one to take on both Raditz and Kakarot(with Kakarot thoroughly beaten down. It's also worthy to note that this was also after months of training since they left Earth):
Another showing for the Helior elite themselves, being able to take on many Saibamen(which were stated by Nappa to be as strong as Radditz was before Earth.
The fact they're as strong as Raditz pre-Earth is backed up by Raditz himself saying they weren't strong enough to control them before he and Kakarot went into training:
So, the Helior themselves are no slouches.
Now onto Raditz's next ability: Oozaru!
After Raditz reclaimed his brother from Earth, Kakarot actually had a good idea... making an easier way to become an Oozaru:
Essentially, they both have miniature lamps inside their eyes that emit blutz waves allowing them to turn into an Oozaru. As with all saiyans, becoming an Oozaru is an incredible increase in power and durability. Some examples:
Takes an Ultrawaver(It's essentially their trump card), and even then it was only enough to bring him back to base(most likely because it damages his tail. This chapter is still ongoing.)
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Strong and fast enough to fight against SSJ Bardock:
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While I admit he wasn't enough to take down Bardock, Bardock himself is near the power of Android 16(as he had a pretty even fight against King Cold, who was stated to be as powerful as 16)So that was still a good showing on Raditz's behalf.
As for Eve, Raditz is no fool(wow, that sounds weird...) as previously shown. He does what it takes to win. When he sees that Eve is providing Invincible shields Raditz will most likely rain down energy blasts that would envelop them both. This would mean Invincible has two options from that point:
- Keep going after Raditz
- Support Eve.
With Even having to defend herself in addition to Invincible, something is bound to mess up which could prove fatal to either of them or at the very least give Raditz the upper hand.
In addition, even if worse came to worse Raditz still has the Oozaru transformation as his trump card to give him an explosive boost in all his abilities which would greatly tip the edge in his favor.
Your turn, sorry about that massive gap in time O:
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