CaV: Nightwing vs Green Arrow VOTING

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TheDandyMan

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#1  Edited By TheDandyMan
Nightwing (New 52) represented by captain_batman_FTW
Nightwing (New 52) represented by captain_batman_FTW
Green Arrow (New 52) represented by TheDandyMan
Green Arrow (New 52) represented by TheDandyMan

Location:

Brownfield site
Brownfield site

Rules:

  • Combatants are in character
  • Combatants have basic prior knowledge but no prep time
  • Combatants have standard equipment (Nightwing gear for Dick and trick arrows and regular arrows for Oliver)
  • Nightwing starts in the blue circle and Green Arrow starts in the red circle
  • Incapacitation, KO or death count as a win
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neat

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captain_batman_FTW

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@thedandyman: Can I make the opener instead? I have time for it, so can I do it? You're going to make your post in about some few days, so I might as well make the first one.

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captain_batman_FTW

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@thedandyman: Ok, let's get this going.

So, Oliver's main thing in this fight is his arrows, which won't even be that much of a problem, and yes, I'm aware of his trick arrows, but that's nothing Dick can't bypass considering his agility. Now, I don't think that Oliver's arrow is going to hit, ever, nor do I think that the trick arrows would work considering Dick's agility and even if it does hit him, it won't knock him out. Hell, even if some of Oliver's normal arrows hits him, he's not going to be damaged a lot.

Here's why I don't think that Oliver's arrows aren't going to hit Dick:

  • Dick was dancing around bullets from assault rifles and bullets from AR travels so much faster than bullets from handguns.
  • Dick was dancing around missiles, which also travels faster than sound.
  • Dick dodged bullets from a chopper. Though he did get tagged after dodging most of them, it was only because he was in mid-air.
  • Dick easily dodges bullets after they're fired.
No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

<--- These are shots from an M16, and bullets from M16s travels twice the speed of sound from what I have researched.

Now that the part of the arrows are gone, I'd like to talk about how Nightwing is going to take out Oliver after he's danced around the arrows.

It's simple really, he punches and kicks the snott out of Green Arrow. His striking power has been good enough to damage Batman badly, and Batman's durability throughout the New 52 is pretty sick. I mean, Batman is the same guy who tanked a shot from a thank and tanked a shot from a bazooka. Both of these as if he wasn't even hurt. New 52 Batman was thrown into buildings by Cobb, but he still tanked it. He was hit through a brick wall by Cobb as well, but he tanked it, but when Nightwing engaged in a fight with Bruce. Bruce got damaged badly. So my strategy is really simple and neat. It's just that Dick beats the crap out of Green Arrow. I know it's a sloppy strategy, but really, it's what he does all the time.

I could go on about equipment as well, but I'll just wait and see what you have to say first.

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captain_batman_FTW

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@thedandyman: Noted. I'll get into equipment if it's needed.

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thedailybagel

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#15 thedailybagel  Moderator

Awesome, tag for votes please.

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DarthAznable

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Tag for votes monsieur

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TheDandyMan

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Tag for votes

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AllStarSuperman

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Tag me as well.

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#25  Edited By TheDandyMan

Oliver Queen AKA. Green Arrow

No Caption Provided

It's Time to Introduce Green Arrow and I Aim to Impress

Oliver Queen was once an ignorant, playboy who liked nothing more than spending time partying on oil rigs (yep, apparently there's no better place to party than oil rigs), getting drunk and generally messing about. However, that was before Oliver's life changed. He became stranded on an island with only a bow used his "natural talent" and previous archery lessons to survive, developing in the process. After escaping from thugs who tortured him, he was rescued by a boat and returned to Seattle a different man. He now fights crime using his skill and technology under the name "Green Arrow".

(I've tried to give his origin without any spoilers in case you want to read Jeff Lemire's run for yourself)

Accuracy

As you'd expect, Green Arrow is an accurate guy and has been able to pull off a number of difficult shots in his time.

No Caption Provided

He was able to shoot off Grifter's mask while being fired at. Grifter is not some random thug, he's a skilled fighter and shooting his mask off is going to require more skill than simply hitting his body. Oliver isn't simply limited to hitting featless enemies, he is able to tag trained fighters.

Here, he manages to hit a device in Count Vertigo's ear which causes intense dizziness. The average ear, according to The Average Body.com, is 6.4 cm. Dick Grayson, according to DC Wikia.com, is around 1.80 m. That's many, many times larger than an ear and, therefore, is many, many times more easy to hit (while standing still bare in mind). And no, I didn't expect to be looking up the average size of an ear while doing a CaV.

More of these feats will come but this should do for now.

Tech/Gadgets

Another thing Green Arrow is known for are his trick arrows. We've progressed a little bit from the "boxing-glove arrow"...

No Caption Provided

The explosive arrow. These trick arrows come in a variety of different power levels, the one above being a more deadly version.

No Caption Provided

The net arrow. Here we see they have the strength to hold multiple enemies.

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The smoke-bomb arrow. Does what it says on the tin.

As with accuracy feat, more scans of trick arrows will come.

Speed/Reflexes and Agility

Green Arrow is actually pretty fast which is something people can forget. While it's not his greatest attribute, he can keep up with his opponents.

No Caption Provided

The villain above is named Blood Rose, a cyborg with impressive accuracy. Earlier on, she was able to shock Oliver by firing three bullets around him, barley missing his body, just to show off her skills. He is able to run fast enough to avoid her aim here, demonstrating his speed.

In this instance, Green Arrow is approached from behind by a thug with a gun. Even though Oliver isn't facing the criminal and is a very short distance from him, he is still able to be too fast to hit (he is clipped by the bullet but barley).

Counters

So, normally I would leave it at an introduction. However, seeing as you've gotten right into it I'll just add my opinions on a few pieces of your argument.

if some of Oliver's normal arrows hits him, he's not going to be damaged a lot.

This I doubt. In CaVs, I don't give lower showings of my opponents character. But this is not a low showing, this is, as far as I can remember, Nightwing's only showing against sharp projectiles:

No Caption Provided

We can see that thrown blades are able to get through Dick's armour. In fact, Dick does eventually pass out after being hit. So Green Arrow's arrows will cause injury.

A main point your making is that Nightwing will be too fast to hit, stating things such as:

Dick easily dodges bullets after they're fired.

Dick does not dodge bullets after they're fired. Or at least, I haven't seen this. We generally reserve this right to characters such as Cassandra Cain, those with spectacular speed. What Dick does his dodge the gunman's aim, being too fast for his opponent to fix on rather than being too fast for the actual bullet. None of the examples you've given have included marksmen of Green Arrow's calibre so, while the fact that arrows are slower than bullets does help Nightwing, Queen should be able to hit him. Not every time but hit him none the less.

when Nightwing engaged in a fight with Bruce. Bruce got damaged badly.

Are you talking about the Nightwing #30 battle? Where Bruce and Dick hold a casual conversation while splitting bikes in two? While entertaining, that fights validity should be taken into question...

This is a taster of what we're going to see my man do in the battle. Your turn @captain_batman_ftw.

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I don't do battles very often because it always becomes too nuanced about trivialities for me to care for long, so I'm not acting like my observation should affect the outcome of this battle. I just want or get this off my chest.

In general, I find the concept of human superheroes "dodging bullets" to be patently ridiculous and usually an irrational conclusion to draw from the story. Here is my reasoning.

Bullets travel at various speeds. I have some for my pistol that travel at 2,000 feet per second, and that's far less than the speed of many rifle rounds, but let's just take my bullet speed and cut it in half and say for the sake of discussion that bullets travel at 1,000 feet per second. 1,000 FPS translates to 681 miles per hour. If someone is shooting at you from a distance of fifty feet, that means the bullet would hit you .05 seconds after fired. Even if you only had to move a foot to avoid being hit, that would still require you to move at 14 MPH to avoid a bullet in .05 seconds. People can move that quickly, but only after starting at a slower speed and gaining momentum. Going from one complex motion like punching someone to moving a full fourteen miles and hours is basically impossible.

Furthermore, it takes a minimum of .14 seconds to respond to visual stimuli (and you would have to see the direction the gun was pointed to know which way to dodge) which means a bullet would hit you before you could even register it much less respond to it.

Cut the firing range to closer distances as we often see in comics and things become even more ridiculous. From ten feet, you would have .01 seconds to respond and would need to move at nearly eighty miles an hour to dodge.

All of this is moot in most cases anyway. Usually what people call "dodging fire" in entertainment is not actually avoiding bullets once fired but staying out of the line of fire in the first place. It's still far fetched to believe anyone could consistently move quicker than a gun hand can track, but it is at least possible to move your body quicker than someone else moved their arm, and it is plausible that someone could see where someone is pointing the gun and get out of the way or juke so much that they are difficult to track.

Usually people are wrong when they say human characters dodged bullets anyway. The only time it's logical to assume a character is actually dodging a bullet is when you see the bullet actually closing in on someone in one panel and you see the character move out of the way in the next panel. If this exact scenario does not play out, then it makes infinitely more sense to assume the character shooting simply misaimed due to evasion rather than assume the hero moved out of the way after the bullet was fired. Those few times where this exact scenario does occur and a human truly dodges a bullet should be dismissed as PIS.

End rant.

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@thedandyman:

This I doubt. In CaVs, I don't give lower showing of my opponents character. But this is not a low showing, this is, as far as I can remember, is Nightwing's only showing against sharp projectiles

Yeah, I know. If Oliver hits him rapidly Dick's gonna get hurt, but not when one single arrow hits him. Just fact about the scan so people won't think that Dick got tagged by throwing knifes: Dick thought that he had finished Cobb, because he put one of his escrima sticks through Cobb's eye, so he went to check the others, but when he did, he got hit with throwing knifes.

A main point your making is that Nightwing will be too fast to hit, stating things such as:

Dick easily dodges bullets after they're fired.

Dick does not dodge bullets after they're fired. Or at least, I haven't seen this. We generally reserve this right to characters such asCassandra Cain, those with spectacular speed. What Dick does his dodge the gunman's aim, being too fast for his opponent to fix on rather than being too fast for the actual bullet. None of the examples you've given have included marksmen of Green Arrow's calibre so, while the fact that arrows are slower than bullets does help Nightwing, Queen should be able to hit him. Not every time but hit him none the less.

Nope, he actually dodges them after they've been fired. Take this one for example:

Pretty clear that he dodged the missile after it was fired, no?

Here's another example:

It's pretty clear that he dodged it after it was shot, cause I'm pretty sure that a spread of bullets would tag one target, unless said so target managed to dodge them after they were fired.

Also, when it comes to bullet dodging, Dick (at least Pre-52) > Cassandra Cain.

Oliver shouldn't be able to tag him at all. Do you think that arrows (slower than automatic guns) are going to hit Nightwing when bullets with faster speed and way higher RPM can't hit him? Seems illogical to that arrows are going to tag him.

Are you talking about the Nightwing #30 battle? Where Bruce and Dick hold a casual conversation while splitting bikes in two? While entertaining, that fights validity should be taken into question...

I'm only using that as a feat for his damage output, not H2H. Besides, New 52 Batman doesn't even have that good H2H feats. It's mainly physical stats and Bruce's tech that makes him so good.

The explosive arrow. These trick arrows come in a variety of different power levels, the one above being non-lethal (yet still able to cause KO).

This is the one I'm most afraid of. Yes, it is a potential game changer, but it's nothing Nightwing can't tank considering that he tanked an explosion way bigger than this in Death of the Family. I'll get the scans later, but right now, it's unavailable to me since I'm using my brother's PC.

As for the net arrow, that won't be a problem cause it's nothing Nightwing can't get away from before it hits him. He has many bullet dodging feats, so I really doubt Green Arrow is be capable of tagging a bullet timer. Regardless of how accurate Oliver is, an arrow has its limits and the speed of an arrow is so much lesser than a bullet, or bullets that travels twice the speed of sound.

Equipment:

I'd like to talk a little bit about the equipment Dick can use to take out Oliver. The escrima sticks being one of them. I'm not talking about the damage output Dick can use to take out Green Arrow, but rather its stun drive. I'm not very knowledgable on Green Arrow's durability (I let the series go before finishing two issues), but if you can show me feats of Oliver tanking attacks from electric type of stuff, then we could measure wether or not the drive stun would work.

Another thing Nightwing can use in this match is the electricity output from his suit, which is 150.000 volts to Oliver's body, and I really, really doubt he'd be capable of tanking an attack as such. Dick has done this multiple times, so I'd doubt Oliver would be capable of tanking an attack like this, but just so you know; I'm not using this as a go-to tactic, I'm only using this as something someone does before their last resort.

The villain above is named Blood Rose, a cyborg with impressive accuracy. Earlier on, she was able to shock Oliver by firing three bullets around him, barley missing his body, just to show off her skills. He is able to run fast enough to avoid her aim here, demonstrating his speed

Not a bullet dodging feat, and it doesn't help your case for what I'm about to say next. As you yourself said: ''He is able to run fast enough to avoid her aim here.''

Another way Nightwing can take out Oliver with is by throwing one of his escrima sticks at him. Yes, I'm aware of the feat you posted after this one, the one with him leaping up to the air and dodging the bullet. It's still not good enough to say that he can dodge an escrima stick getting thrown at him by Dick. Why? Because in Grayson #2, Dick managed to almost tag a speedster that was so fast that Dick wasn't capable of perceiving her when Dick has been capable of perceiving missiles, bullets, a hit from Midnighter and a knife thrown by Midnighter (he blocked it). I'm not taking this feat as an accuracy feat, but rather a feat of how fast the escrima stick gets thrown by Dick. Dick's aim with the escrima sticks, when throwing it, is pretty good considering that he's capable of always tagging his opponents, unless they dodge it after it was thrown at them.

Sorry for the lack of scans, but I'll get them once I have the chance.

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#30  Edited By TheDandyMan

Round 2

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Accuracy

As promised, here are some more accuracy feats of Green Arrow's.

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Above, Green Arrow is able to take off the ponytails of not one but two martial artists while flying through the air. What does this show? Well, he's able to hit moving targets that are skilled, can fire more than one arrow at a time with great accuracy and is a bit of a bad@ss.

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Another showing of Green Arrow firing at least more than one arrow with precision. This time, he manages to get five non-lethal on this crook. Not once did he miss.

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To finish off the accuracy section, I've chosen this feat. With a barrage of arrows, Oliver is able to hit seven targets. Seven targets, all of which would be difficult on their own and Oliver does this while balancing on a chain.

There is a theme with these examples: they all involve Green Arrow hitting multiple targets near-simultaneously. Nightwing isn't just going to have to dodge single projectiles, multiple arrows will be coming his way at one time.

Tech/Gadgets

Time to showcase a couple more arrows.

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The EMP arrow. This is going to be pretty effective against Nightwing, any gadgets that Dick might think about using that use circuits will become useless after this device has been used.

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The flaming arrow. An arrow that produces flame.

Durability/Pain Resistance

On to a new category now: durability and pain resistance. Oliver has taken quite a beating in his time so is used to injury. The fact that, on the island he became stranded on, he was tortured by criminals means that he can take a lot of punishment.

No Caption Provided

Green Arrow takes punches from the villain Rush, someone with enough super-strength to pull metal posts out of the ground. After Queen falls to the ground from this assault, he is able to pick himself up and take out the bad guy. If Nightwing closes in on Green Arrow, I reckon my man will be able to take some hits.

In the first scan above, we see Green Arrow being shot by the master archer Komodo with five arrows. That's a lot of arrows. He is, however, able to pick himself up and, as we see in the second scan, he would have been able to defeat the opponent if he wasn't interrupted.

As we can see, he's difficult to put down.

Counters

First, I want to have another look at Dick's supposed super speed (no human can dodge bullets from the distance we're talking about after they've been fired).

Pretty clear that he dodged the missile after it was fired, no?

Saiko wasn't aiming for Dick, he was aiming for the car behind Dick in order to provide a distraction so he could get away.

It's pretty clear that he dodged it after it was shot, cause I'm pretty sure that a spread of bullets would tag one target, unless said so target managed to dodge them after they were fired.

This feat would be impossible unless Nightwing is superhuman. If bullets are faster than the speed of sound then Grayson wouldn't even be able to respond to the gunshots, the bullets would hit him before he could even hear the noise. More likely he was dodging the aim.

when it comes to bullet dodging, Dick (at least Pre-52) > Cassandra Cain.

I know a certain viner who would be desperate to come in a contradict that. It's generally accepted that Cassandra Cain is one of the, possibly the, fastest street-leveler around. He would be near-untouchable to most of the opponents he faces if he was faster than her and he isn't untouchable.

show me feats of Oliver tanking attacks from electric type of stuff, then we could measure wether or not the drive stun would work.

Here you go:

No Caption Provided

He's hit by Supercharge and, after being blasted through a wall, stands up again like it's nothing. Also, when your able to get scans, I'd like to see Nightwing's electricity in action.

Another way Nightwing can take out Oliver with is by throwing one of his escrima sticks at him

From the distance they begin with? I doubt that's an effective idea. Look at this:

No Caption Provided

Oliver dodges a thrown shield from point blank range, likely a similar speed to Dick's projectile (don't be immature guys, Dick as in Richard). It could be said he dodges it after it's been thrown. While I don't believe that just because he dodged a goons shield he can dodge Dick's escrima stick, from the distance Nightwing is likely to throw it I believe it won't be a large problem.

Conclusion

This post has been about backing up some of the points I made in my first post as well as questioning some of yours. I've shown that Green Arrows accuracy is great enough to get hits on Dick as well as further questioned Dick's supposed bullet dodging. Queen's arrow versatility means Nightwing's going to have to constantly stay sharp and his durability and pain tolerance should allow him to take damage himself. Overall, I believe Green Arrow will win this battle.

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@thedandyman: Before I start with my third post, I'm just gonna provide scans for my earlier tactics:

1.

The escrima sticks being one of them. I'm not talking about the damage output Dick can use to take out Green Arrow, but rather its stun drive. I'm not very knowledgable on Green Arrow's durability (I let the series go before finishing two issues), but if you can show me feats of Oliver tanking attacks from electric type of stuff, then we could measure wether or not the drive stun would work.

2.

Another thing Nightwing can use in this match is the electricity output from his suit, which is 150.000 volts to Oliver's body, and I really, really doubt he'd be capable of tanking an attack as such. Dick has done this multiple times, so I'd doubt Oliver would be capable of tanking an attack like this, but just so you know; I'm not using this as a go-to tactic, I'm only using this as something someone does before their last resort.

Here's the electricity, and it delivers 150.000 volts.

3.

Another way Nightwing can take out Oliver with is by throwing one of his escrima sticks at him. Yes, I'm aware of the feat you posted after this one, the one with him leaping up to the air and dodging the bullet. It's still not good enough to say that he can dodge an escrima stick getting thrown at him by Dick. Why? Because in Grayson #2, Dick managed to almost tag a speedster that was so fast that Dick wasn't capable of perceiving her when Dick has been capable of perceiving missiles, bullets, a hit from Midnighter and a knife thrown by Midnighter (he blocked it). I'm not taking this feat as an accuracy feat, but rather a feat of how fast the escrima stick gets thrown by Dick. Dick's aim with the escrima sticks, when throwing it, is pretty good considering that he's capable of always tagging his opponents, unless they dodge it after it was thrown at them

I haven't started my third post yet, I'm only providing the scans needed.

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captain_batman_FTW

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@thedandyman:

Saiko wasn't aiming for Dick, he was aiming for the car behind Dick in order to provide a distraction so he could get away.

Yeah, I forgot about this. Regardless, he even danced around three of Saiko's missiles in Nightwing #2.

All faster than sound, so I doubt arrows would hit him.
All faster than sound, so I doubt arrows would hit him.

If you doubt that he dodges the aim of people, then take a look at this scan where Dick dodges an energy blast from someone:

No Caption Provided

Another feat is that he blocked something thrown by Midnighter:

This feat would be impossible unless Nightwing is superhuman. If bullets are faster than the speed of sound then Grayson wouldn't even be able to respond to the gunshots, the bullets would hit him before he could even hear the noise. More likely he was dodging the aim.

Yeah, but the thing is, peak humans in comics are superhumans in real life. Dick managed to dodge them after it was fired, and another thing I think might support this is that New 52 is just a continuation of Post Crisis, and Dick, in Post Crisis, was able to perceive sniper shots, so I doubt it makes any difference. Even so, the SWAT team shot the bullets first and then he dodged it, in the scan I showed when Dick danced around bullets from an assasult rifle while the gunman was in a helicopter.

I know a certain viner who would be desperate to come in a contradict that. It's generally accepted that Cassandra Cain is one of the, possibly the, fastest street-leveler around. He would be near-untouchable to most of the opponents he faces if he was faster than her and he isn't untouchable.

Pre-52 Dick is a faaaar better bullet timer than what Cassie is, New 52 dick is inferior to Cassandra when it comes to that area, but Post Crisis Dick is a superior bullet timer to Cassandra Cain. Lol at this, though:

I know a certain viner who would be desperate to come in a contradict that.

As for this:

Here you go:

No Caption Provided

He's hit by Supercharge and, after being blasted through a wall, stands up again like it's nothing. Also, when your able to get scans, I'd like to see Nightwing's electricity in action.

How good is Supercharge's electricity? I doubt that Oliver would be capable of taking 150.000 volts to the face, unless he has some kind of resistant suit or some resistant tech against electricity.

From the distance they begin with? I doubt that's an effective idea. Look at this:

No Caption Provided

Oliver dodges a thrown shield from point blank range, likely a similar speed to Dick's projectile (don't be immature guys, Dick as in Richard). It could be said he dodges it after it's been thrown. While I don't believe that just because he dodged a goons shield, he can dodge Dick's escrima stick, from the distance Nightwing is likely to throw it I believe it won't be a large problem.

How fast has this said guy thrown his shield before? Dick almost tagged someone who was imperceivable to him and he can perceive bullets, so that means that the lady was running faster than twice the speed of sound. So if Dick is capable of throwing his escrima stick that fast, I'm 100% sure it will tag Oliver, and if the escrima stick flies that fast, it will gather enough momentum to take out Oliver. Besides, that isn't even the tactic I'm gonna start with. It will be something Dick does further into the match.

As for how much damage output the escrima stick can put out when Dick casually throws it is good enough to say that it can at least hurt Green Arrow.

Scan 1: He easily breaks the front window of a car. Scan 2: While weakend, he puts his escrima stick through Cobb's eyes, and let me tell you something about Cobb. He is the same guy who survived getting thrown of off Wayne Tower and he didn't have a single hole in his body.

Hell, he's been capable of knocking people out by throwing guns at them.

This post has been about backing up some of the points I made in my first post as well as questioning some of yours. I've shown that Green Arrows accuracy is great enough to get hits on Dick as well as further questioned Dick's supposed bullet dodging. Queen's arrow versatility means Nightwing's going to have to constantly stay sharp and his durability and pain tolerance should allow him to take damage himself. Overall, I believe Green Arrow will win this battle.

He'd dodged bullets after they've been shot. I've backed that up by showing that he dodged an energy blast point blank and easily blocked an object thrown by Midnighter. If this helps, Dick being Batman is canon, and when Dick was Batman, he was dancing around bullets from the JLA's Watchtower's AI turrets. I know I'm not allowed to use those Post Crisis feats, but what I'm saying is that it doesn't make any difference wether or not the bullet(s) was/were shown to be shot in the same panel Dick dodged them. Regardless, Green Arrow's not tagging him with arrows, but Green Arrow can be tagged with the Escrima sticks and get hurt by them.

I still stand by these points:

  • Dick's not getting tagged by GA's arrows.
  • Dick's escrima sticks can hurt Green Arrow if he throws it at him.
  • Dick's drive stunners can hurt Green Arrow, or at least throw him of off his game a little giving Dick that little hole to exploit.
  • Dick can beat Green Arrow to a knockout considering that he managed to badly hurt someone who can do this:

Hell, I'm pretty sure that Green Arrow won't even tag Dick in H2H due to some of these feats I've shown and to showcase that Dick won't be tagged very often by Green Arrow in H2H, I'll show this scan from Grayson #6, I believe it was from:

No Caption Provided

The fact that Dick even defeated Midnighter is PIS, in my opinion, but I'm not counting that he dodged a punch from Midnighter PIS considering that he's dodged stuff faster (N52 Midnighter isn't so good, IIRC).

He was constantly tagging Batman as well in Nightwing #30, and Batman himself is a bullet timer in the New 52. Hell, Batman in the New 52 blocked bullets from Wrath and dodged bullets from his plane (Wrath Plane?).

So all in all, Dick should basically be too fast for Green Arrow.

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so much out of context scans

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@serrure: Like when? PM me and point me out to where I've posted out of context scans.

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T4V please

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#39  Edited By TheDandyMan

Round 3

No Caption Provided

Hand-to-Hand Combat

While Green Arrow primarily focuses on range, he's a pretty decent fighter up close too.

No Caption Provided

He is able to injure and knock down Dynamix who has basic levels of superhuman strength and durability. Despite his opponents physical advantage, he's still able to draw blood.

No Caption Provided

Another durable enemy, this time Brick. Even though the guy's skin is thick enough to barley allow arrows through, Queen is able to punch him so hard that multiple teeth come flying out. I guess Brick didn't know that when he was offered "free dental" for joining the villains anaesthetic wasn't included.

As we see in both case, Green Arrow is able to cause some major pain with those fists.

Counters

Ok, this is the final time I'm going to discuss Nightwing's bullet dodging in the counters section.

No Caption Provided

We all know who the hero above is. Spiderman, a character who's speed is known for being above any street-leveler (excluding anyone who's powers only/mainly consist of super-speed). We see that in the scan, Kraven fires a bullet at Spiderman with accuracy. However, the bullet misses and the conclusion is made that Peter Parker has the speed to dodge bullets after they're fired. But we see Kraven saying "[Peter's] not supposed to be that fast" so this is a high-showing for Peter. If dodging a bullet after it's been fired is a high-showing for Spiderman, it's going to be impossible for Nightwing.

I doubt that Oliver would be capable of taking 150.000 volts to the face, unless he has some kind of resistant suit or some resistant tech against electricity.

As far as I remember, the only time Dick has used his costume's electricity on a human being is against Saiko and, even though there was a puddle of water below the two and Saiko's suit wasn't insulated, it didn't put him down. There will be no puddle of water in this case and Oliver's suit does appear to have some electricity resistance otherwise he would likely have stayed on the ground for longer after he had been zapped by Supercharge.

I'm pretty sure that Green Arrow won't even tag Dick in H2H

I disagree. Green Arrow has to be quick-thinking in order to aim quickly so he should be able to keep up with Dick.

Strategy

Now we get to my strategy. As you can see, the two start a fairly large distance between each other. This is, in my opinion, plenty of time for Oliver to tag Dick as Dick is a aim dodger not a bullet dodger. I've yet to see Nightwing dodge anyone near Green Arrow's level of accuracy and while not all arrows will hit some will. However, in order to make this easier I will start off with a flash-bang arrow:

As I've shown above, this arrow has been used in different story arcs and is not some gadgets that's only be used on one occasion. This tech will leave Nightwing blind long enough for Green Arrow to get a few shots on his body, perhaps to the kneecaps. These arrows lodged in Grayson's body are going to slow him down, making him easier to hit. As more and more arrows become lodged in Nightwing, he will become weaker and weaker. When becomes injured enough, Green Arrow can go in with the net arrow and win with incapacitation.

It is quite possible that Dick could reach Oliver before he becomes weakened enough for the net arrow. However, I do have a plan for this. Using the EMP arrow I showed earlier (which does not have to make contact with the target), Green Arrow can shut down a variety of gadgets Nightwing could use in hand-to-hand. Still, my man will have to contend with Grayson's greater martial arts ability. Can Queen win against a regular Nightwing? No. Can Queen win against an injured Nightwing? Still questionable. Can Queen hold his own against an injured Nightwing for a bit? I believe so. Using his impressive striking ability, Green Arrow can hit any point where Dick has been shot which will already be tender so this is going to hurt. While Nightwing is stunned, Green Arrow can dash to a safer distance and continue his ranged assault.

Conclusion

This post was mainly about introducing my strategy of winning the fight. And, while it may not work out sometimes, I think it will be effective a majority of the time. Unless he's as fast as Spiderman, it really should be taken into question whether Nightwing can dodge bullets. He has never taken on an opponent with as much accuracy as Green Arrow and it's this accuracy that will lead Oliver to victory.

@captain_batman_ftw, final post.

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@thedandyman: You have one more post, so have I. After that votes will be available as we agreed earlier in a PM.

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@thedandyman: Thought that you meant that, that post was your final one.

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@thedandyman:

We all know who the hero above is. Spiderman, a character who's speed is known for being above any street-leveler (excluding anyone who's powers only/mainly consist of super-speed). We see that in the scan, Kraven fires a bullet at Spiderman with accuracy. However, the bullet misses and the conclusion is made that Peter Parker has the speed to dodge bullets after they're fired. But we see Kraven saying "[Peter's] not supposed to be that fast" so this is a high-showing for Peter. If dodging a bullet after it's been fired is a high-showing for Spiderman, it's going to be impossible for Nightwing.

If Spiderman can't do it, then that means that Nightwing can't do it either? That's very weird to say, but just because Spiderman can't do it, it does not mean that Dick can't do it. It doesn't work like that if Dick has his own fair share of bullet-dodging feats.

As far as I remember, the only time Dick has used his costume's electricity on a human being is against Saiko and, even though there was a puddle of water below the two and Saiko's suit wasn't insulated, it didn't put him down. There will be no puddle of water in this case and Oliver's suit does appear to have some electricity resistance otherwise he would likely have stayed on the ground for longer after he had been zapped by Supercharge.

That's a feat for Saiko, not Oliver. Regardless, Dick has used it two times, I believe. Even so, I only used this as a tactic if Oliver was gaining the advantage, which he did exactly why he used it against Saiko.

I disagree. Green Arrow has to be quick-thinking in order to aim quickly so he should be able to keep up with Dick.

I doubt it considering that Dick has dodged stuff way faster than arrows. Regardless, Oliver is already going to have a hard time tagging Dick in H2H, but it won't be a problem for Dick to tag Oliver with his fist considering that he was tagging Batman many times in Nightwing #30. Dick dodged a punch from Midnighter, dodges bullets on a usual day and managed to avoid some of Batman's hits, so I doubt Green Arrow would be capable of tagging him with his fists or arrows, but Dick's escrima sticks can tag Oliver, and I've shown why in one of my previous posts.

Now we get to my strategy. As you can see, the two start a fairly large distance between each other. This is, in my opinion, plenty of time for Oliver to tag Dick as Dick is a aim dodger not a bullet dodger. I've yet to see Nightwing dodge anyone near Green Arrow's level of accuracy and while not all arrows will hit some will. However, in order to make this easier I will start off with a flash-bang arrow:

As I've shown above, this arrow has been used in different story arcs and is not some gadgets that's only be used on one occasion. This tech will leave Nightwing blind long enough for Green Arrow to get a few shots on his body, perhaps to the kneecaps. These arrows lodged in Grayson's body are going to slow him down, making him easier to hit. As more and more arrows become lodged in Nightwing, he will become weaker and weaker. When becomes injured enough, Green Arrow can go in with the net arrow and win with incapacitation.

I don't know why you suddenly wanted to change your strategy, but whatever. This strategy won't work for Oliver if he's planning on using arrows to hit Dick, because a team of SWAT already tried this. They used a flash bang and Dick managed to dodge bullets from assault rifles:

Your strategy will fail before it has even been initiated.

It is quite possible that Dick could reach Oliver before he becomes weakened enough for the net arrow. However, I do have a plan for this. Using the EMP arrow I showed earlier (which does not have to make contact with the target), Green Arrow can shut down a variety of gadgets Nightwing could use in hand-to-hand. Still, my man will have to contend with Grayson's greater martial arts ability. Can Queen win against a regular Nightwing? No. Can Queen win against an injured Nightwing? Still questionable. Can Queen hold his own against an injured Nightwing for a bit? I believe so. Using his impressive striking ability, Green Arrow can hit any point where Dick has been shot which will already be tender so this is going to hurt. While Nightwing is stunned, Green Arrow can dash to a safer distance and continue his ranged assault.

I countered the start of this strategy, so this whole part right here won't work. The only thing Oliver's going to shut down is Nightwing's night vision and electricity, not the force the escrima sticks have when thrown at people or objects.

So to sum it up:

Dick will be capable of dodging Green Arrow's arrows, and the flashbang strategy won't work. Dick can take out Oliver by throwing an escrima stick to Oliver's face (which is in character) and it will tag him considering the speed it carries with it. It probably won't knock out Oliver, but it's not even going to be Nightwing's first move. At the start he'll just dodge all of his arrows and proceed to H2H where Oliver will have a very hard time tagging Dick due to what he's done before and what I've shown. I've shown that he dodged a punch and blocked a throwing object faster than Oliver's fist. Even if one of Oliver's hits happens to connect in H2H, it won't do much considering that he tanked many hits from Batman in Nightwing #30, and Batman has been capable of kicking people through concrete. Batman has punched his way out through brick walls before, so his striking power should be above Green arrow. Not to mention Dick's own striking power can finish Oliver within some few hits considering that he did this:

He hurt Bruce. This is enough to say that he'll take out Olvier with some few hits considering that this is how good Bruce's durability is:

Oliver's speed won't be a problem for Dick either. He managed to consistently tag Batman, who himself is a bullet timer.

We can call in for votes when you're finished with your post.

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#47  Edited By TheDandyMan

Final Post

No Caption Provided

Counters

Ok, I know I said I was going to stop talking about Dick's bullet dodging but...meh.

If Spiderman can't do it, then that means that Nightwing can't do it either? That's very weird to say, but just because Spiderman can't do it, it does not mean that Dick can't do it. It doesn't work like that if Dick has his own fair share of bullet-dodging feats.

I don't think it's an absurd notion to believe that because a superhuman with a number of impressive feats of speed throughout his time has a tough time being too fast for bullets, a non-powered character will find it near-impossible. If you had shown captions where it implies Dick is not completely human then I would consider the idea but I haven't seen anything to suggest that. Spiderman is someone who has been almost too fast for Daredevil to keep up with and, in my opinion, Daredevil has better reactions than Nightwing (although I suppose this is debatable). I don't think I'll be able to convince you that Grayson doesn't dodge bullets but I suppose all I have to do is convince the voters which I hope I've done.

Now to my view that Green Arrow can keep up in hand-to-hand.

I doubt it considering that Dick has dodged stuff way faster than arrows. Regardless, Oliver is already going to have a hard time tagging Dick in H2H, but it won't be a problem for Dick to tag Oliver with his fist considering that he was tagging Batman many times inNightwing #30. Dick dodged a punch from Midnighter, dodges bullets on a usual day and managed to avoid some of Batman's hits, so I doubt Green Arrow would be capable of tagging him with his fists or arrows, but Dick's escrima sticks can tag Oliver, and I've shown why in one of my previous posts.

Honestly, I don't think speed is one of Batman's greatest assets. In the New 52, he seems to be able to rely on his bullet-proof suit to keep him from harm rather than being too fast to see all the time. Not that he's slow but he's not the fastest either. Midnighter does not seem to be at full strength in the Grayson series and, while I'm not an expert on the character, pre-52 he was on a whole different level to Dick. In terms of a thrown escrima stick hitting Queen, it's plausible although Oliver could possibly dodge it. Almost hitting a speedster isn't really that a great feat, the key word being almost.

As for my flash-band strategy, you've made a fair point.

This strategy won't work for Oliver if he's planning on using arrows to hit Dick, because a team of SWAT already tried this.

This is something I thought you might point out. I think, however, that Green Arrow will be able to use his flash-bang more effectively than some random cops. In order to dodge what he thinks is a standard arrow, Nightwing will probably be directly facing the flash-bang unlike when the police used flash-bangs as Nightwing was facing at a slant in that instance. If this doesn't convince you, an explosive arrow could be used as a distraction instead. It can be fired behind Dick (Green Arrow wouldn't fire it directly at him in character) causing him to be tossed into the air and become an easier target.

Finally, I will sum up my points against your conclusion.

Dick will be capable of dodging Green Arrow's arrows, and the flashbang strategy won't work.

Dick will be capable of dodging some of Green Arrow's arrows but not all and the flash-bang strategy may not work every time but the same thing can be achieved with an explosive arrow.

Dick can take out Oliver by throwing an escrima stick to Oliver's face (which is in character) and it will tag him considering the speed it carries with it.

So you believe that while Dick will be able to dodge a large amount of Green Arrow's arrows, he'll be able to tag Green Arrow even though he only has one (or two, depending on whether he throws both his escrima sticks) chance to do so? Nightwing doesn't have a large enough amount of accuracy feats to do this and, although I think an escrima stick could make contact a few times out of ten, Oliver is most likely being tagged for the majority. Even if he is, I think he can take it considering his durability/pain tolerance.

Oliver will have a very hard time tagging Dick due to what he's done before and what I've shown. I've shown that he dodged a punch and blocked a throwing object faster than Oliver's fist. Even if one of Oliver's hits happens to connect in H2H, it won't do much considering that he tanked many hits from Batman in Nightwing #30

Dick will be slower in this instance considering he's been hit by multiple arrows (although you may think otherwise, I'm sticking with my opinion here) and Green Arrow has been able to injure durable opponents before. Added to this, he can aim for weak points where Dick has been hit. And, like I said before, that Batman vs Nightwing fight is dubious.

Conclusion

Alright guys, it's my conclusion now. I'm going to make this short and sweet.

Green Arrow will be able to hit Nightwing. Dick is not a bullet dodger, he's an aim dodger (or, at least, New 52 Dick is an aim dodger) and Green Arrow has been able to tag experienced fighters such as Grifter before and these arrows will be able to hurt him as throwing knives have pierced his armour before. From what's been showcased, Green Arrow seems to have better gadgets as well and, although Nightwing has better hand-to-hand combat skills, Green Arrow's durability is high enough to take hits from those with super-strength and his striking power is enough to injure those with superhuman durability. I believe, considering all this, Green Arrow will win the battle.

@captain_batman_ftw,time for voting man.

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@serrure:

@serrure said:

so much out of context scans

Can you explain now that the votes are open?

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@captain_batman_ftw: yes Nightwing is not a bullet dodger... he has never shown the speed capability of that, nor does he have the enhanced reaction speed needed to comprehend the bullet trajectory and such.

he aim dodges, and while he is incredibly agile, his overall speed is at best on par with batman and even batman cant bullet dodge. He aim dodges... so that logic that because Nightwing dodges bullets he can dodge arrows is false.

if Nightwing doesnt see where the Arrow is fired from then its going to be insanely hard to dodge it, and he'll have to get lucky

that being said ill need to read through the rest of this debate before i vote