I did not notice that meany great feats for bats in the games, but i'm sure mosterstomp will proof me wrong.
I win :P
On the real though, I do believe, given Batman's gear, he should take a majority win over Solid Snake.
Lets start with Batman's will to fight, because Batman isn't walking away from the fight flawlessly.
In Arkham Origins, Batman has been able to take Bane's best blows and continue fighting.
At 1:20 we see Bane's famous "Breaking the Bat" move. Batman is still able to fight through.
At 10:15 we see Batman take Bane's toughest blows and he is still able to get up and fight.
In Arkham Asylum, Batman is still very impressive.
At 8:35 Scarecrow states that Batman had just ingested enough toxin to drive 10 men insane and questions what he is.
At 0:25 Batman resists the Titan formula from taking over him.
In the Arkham tie-ins, it should be noted that Batman did fight for his life in the fight with Joker.
Joker clearly notes that he crushed the life out of him and his laughs were louder than the cracks of his bones.
In any fight against this guy, be assured that you'll get all of it. As long as Batman breathes, you'll be fighting.
Batman's detective mode comes very handy in a fight that may come to stealth. It can detect the lasting disperse of alcohol in the atmosphere and has been able to trace Jim Gordon's tobacco. We all know Solid is a heavy smoker, so tracking him through the dark shouldn't be hard at all.
No idea why these scans are showing up out of order. Batman's sonics are enough to shatter glass and drop a group of TYGA guards.
Batman has been able to use his explosive gel for more than just punching holes in walls. He has laced his fists and boots with it on multiple occasions, to boost his damage output.
Batman has been able to dodge a point blank range shot from Deadshot. Keep in mind, Deadshot from the Arkhamverse doesn't hold the same morals with Batman as comic Deadshot does.
Dodging a rocket fired by Joker.
I do have a feeling that Batman will try and bring the fight to hand to hand or close quarters to say the least. Its in character for Batman to evade foes packing heat and go stealth. Smoke Pellets should help with that. Detective mode will be able to spot Snake in the dark room and his disruptor would jam Snake's gun without him noticing. After that, I believe Batman can hold his own formidably in hand to hand.
Owns an army (not literally) of thugs. In the tie-in comics, Robin actually goes undercover. He finds out that a group of entrees are thrown in a pit and the last man standing is hired. I'd assume these are the best of Penguin's thugs.
Batman has also shown massive amounts of skill in his fight with Deathstroke.
However, will power is not the same thing as stamina and pain tolerance.
While this is correct, Batman had broken bones in his fight with Joker and although it was never stated, Batman probably had a broken back after Bane's "breaking the bat" move, considering it has broken his back in many other instances. Batman has massive pain tolerance and for a guy who is seemingly peak human, he has done some pretty inhumanly things.
but the "break the bat" move had him completely incapacitated
I wouldn't say completely. He was temporarily incapacitated until Bane stood on Batman's neck.
You're trying to claim that, so long as Batman is breathing, he'll be fighting, but Solid Snake has actually proven that is true for him, with no exaggeration.
It seems its true for both combatants to say the least. Ocelot whaling on Snake with steel denting punches is very impressive, but what's harder? Denting steel hulls or shattering bullet resistant glass in two hits in which Batman has done in the opening scene of Arkham Asylum. Coupled with that explosive gel which is able to bust holes in concrete walls and Batman has a superior striking power than Ocelot, in my opinion.
If anything, I concede Snake is tougher than Batman.
Basically my point is, David's pain tolerance coupled with actual durability will provide major issues for Batman. I don't see Bruce actually putting him down.
This maybe true, but you haven't suggested anything to do that same for Batman.
With that out of the way, I feel I need to address Solid's stealth.
Detective Mode is more than just infrared and radar. I doubt Solid's camo suit has come across anything as advanced as Batman's detective vision. It's been able to detect alcohol in the atmosphere long after the suspect has left the room. It has detected blood, so if Snake bleeds in this fight, tracking him will be simple. It has some kind of advance sonar vision, capable of seeing through walls, seeing human skeletons and detecting heart rate. It can trace fingerprints etc. It can nullify the blinding effects of smoke pellets. It can calculate trajectory. It can give the most in depth analytical review of Hush's victims. Moreover, it doesn't look like Snake uses the active camo unless under the impression that he is outmatched. Will he think he's outmatched with Batman?
If it can do all that and some, I'm pretty sure it can bypass the effects of mimicking the colour, pattern and texture.
Then there's the sonic batarangs. Easy counter: Snake shoots them.
If he can sniper Cipher drones directly in their turrets which are about the same size as a batarang, then he can shoot a batarang lying on the ground. I doubt it would instantly incapacitate him, what with the feat of spending over 5 minutes in a microwave hallway when it was supposed to evaporate any living organism in seconds.
1. The fight is in a fairly dark room by the looks of it. Spotting a small batarang that can be imbedded anywhere on the map will be insanely difficult.
2. Batman is a crack shot at throwing Batarangs. I just thought I'd say that before it was brought up. Review the following scans (May not be in order for some effed up reason).
Here he is able to throw 3 batarangs in the hands of 3 different guards.
Not impressive enough? Here Batman throws but one batarang and it knocks three guards down. Lets not forget the feat where Batman actually throws a sonic batarang that ricocheted off a wall and imbedded into the ground.
3. How is Solid suppose to shoot his gun when Batman can jam it with Snake knowing until he tries to fire it?
Skip to 4:20. Batman uses his disruptor to jam Mr Freeze's gun. Which I'd argue is more complex than a standard pistol. In fact, while Solid is trying to fire his weapon, that alone is enough time for Batman to move in.
4. a microwave hallway when it was supposed to evaporate any living organism in seconds. Keyword - "Supposed". Was this actually proven in any other instance? Moreover, sonics and microwave ovens aren't even comparable in terms of effects. I'd still argue that sonics in a feasible tactic that can be used.
Next is the electrical charge... Snake is a bullet timer, simple as that. He's not going to get hit with Batman's stun gun when he's consistently stalemated the likes of Revolver Ocelot, one of the best trickshots in fiction.
While that is fair, Batman has used the gun literally in close quarters against Mad Hatter's bodyguards.
If it does take Snake in close quarters, which is another feasible tactic, I have no doubt Solid can take it, but even still, Solid will be swinging around for enough time so Batman can lay into him.
I had a feeling this'd come up. Arkham Batman is arguably 1-2 ton strength. Although there are limited showings, his standard showings are nothing to ignore.
At 5:00. Here we have Batman outmuscling his way out of Grundy's grasp. If you've ever had someone try to open your hand via thumb, you'd know that naturally you'd squeeze tighter. Same could be said for this particular feat..
In the tie-ins we have Batman hoist a car that's about to drive off, up into the air. Very impressive showing.
One bullet? That he was literally staring straight at and had plenty of time to react to? This is probably Arkham Batman's best speed feat, and while I'm not saying it's unimpressive, it's really nothing in Solid Snake's league.
Excuse me, that same bullet could drop a squad of SWAT in the assassin introduction in Arkham Origins :D. And again, Deadshot has no reason what so ever to pull his shots. Heck in Arkham City, Deadshot was tasked to killing Batman. I really don't think Solid has faced anyone on Deadshot's level.
In fact, Batman has saved a victim from Deadshot, and although it looks kind of iffy because the game developers weren't cinematic experts until Origins, that feat is also impressive. (If you want that video, just holla. I don't want to video spam)
since Batman when caught off guard couldn't even dodge fire from Harley Quinn in "Harley's Revenge" and had to be rescued by Robin.
Never heard of "Harley's Revenge" but by the sound of the title itself, I'd probably consider it PIS.
In the tie-ins Batman has also done the disappearing act multiple times. If you want more scans, I'll have to go back to scan them but here's one to get me started:
In Arkham Asylum Batman jumped in front of Gordon to tank the Titan formula (I've posted the video above).
I'd say Batman is still pretty darn fast for peak human. Though Snake is still probably faster, I'd have to concede.
I didn't know Snake was that formidable, but Batman shouldn't be underestimated either. The only difference between the two combatants is that Snake actually has statements to go along with his skill. Batman just has skill to go along with his skill. In fact, I don't actually think I've seen Batman completely defeated in the games nor comic tie-ins.
Batman has feats ranging from fighting fodder thugs, fodder Titan enhanced thugs, fodder guards, Hammer and Sickle, Killer Croc, Bane (who Batman has killed but brought him back to life with shock gauntlets), Poison Ivy, Grundy, fodder ninja assassins, just people ranging from all over the place.
The real skill is fighting Shiva, Deathstroke, and Copperhead, in my opinion. Black Mask had a 50 million dollar bounty on Batman, I'd say he only hired the best in the business. We know Deadshot is, so I don't see how the others would shy away from being as skilled. Other than that I'd still say Batman has the skill to hold his own formidably if it came to close quarters.
Explosive Gel, Smoke Pellets, Sonics, Electical Charge, heck even Freeze Pellets that were able to incapacitate Clayface in Arkham City would suffice in helping bring down Snake. Batman's greatest assets here is his gadgets, which I'd say are enough to bring Snake down.
While this is correct, Batman had broken bones in his fight with Joker and although it was never stated, Batman probably had a broken back after Bane's "breaking the bat" move, considering it has broken his back in many other instances. Batman has massive pain tolerance and for a guy who is seemingly peak human, he has done some pretty inhumanly things.
I wouldn't say completely incapacitated. He was temporarily incapacitated until Bane stood on Batman's neck.
Ah but the thing is, Bane has only ever broken Batman's back when on Venom. So perhaps Batman's back was injured after that move, but by no means did Bane snap his spine. That said, an injured back is all it took to completely defeat Batman, who was unable to recover and could only whack at Bane's feet from his position on the floor. If it were Snake who took that hit, he'd probably grunt like he always does and then get up, slightly winded. In fact, there's a great scene in MGS4 that perfectly explains my point about Snake's endurance.
Naomi runs some tests on Snake's body to examine his rapid-aging, and blatantly states that a norman man would not be standing by that point. Snake however, isn't just standing. He's globetrotting on secret missions, fighting against militia armies and killer robots all alone, saving the entire planet. It goes to show not just his will power, but also simply how tough his actual body is.
So again, let's say they're matched in will power. Solid Snake is still at a colossal advantage thanks to his durability/stamina, and will most definitely outlast the bat.
As for your statements about Batman's striking power vs Ocelot's, denting the armored hull of Outer Haven is indeed a lot more impressive than shattering bullet proof glass, yet Snake took nearly two dozen of those hits directly to the face without even drawing any blood. To put that into perspective, it's going to take Batman like, 100 punches to the head if he wants to actually KO the soldier. For a guy who relies entirely on hand to hand combat, that is a huge disadvantage.
Detective Mode is more than just infrared and radar.
It's definitely a very advanced vision mode, but as someone who's played all the Arkham games, it really doesn't have any way of locating Solid Snake.
It's been able to detect alcohol in the atmosphere long after the suspect has left the room. It has detected blood, so if Snake bleeds in this fight, tracking him will be simple.
The nanomachines inside Snake's body clot his bloodflow literally within seconds, and break down alcohol almost instantly according to Drebin.
It has some kind of advance sonar vision, capable of seeing through walls, seeing human skeletons and detecting heart rate.
That's just X-Ray.
It can trace fingerprints etc.
Snake wears gloves.
It can nullify the blinding effects of smoke pellets.
More X-Ray.
It can calculate trajectory.
This might come up if Snake tries to shoot Bruce and somehow misses... but the odds of that happening are slim to say the least. Snake doesn't miss.
It can give the most in depth analytical review of Hush's victims.
That's because it's connected with the Batcomputer and can access Batman's databases. It's a testament to the system's technological advancement, but won't aid in tracking Solid Snake.
Moreover, it doesn't look like Snake uses the active camo unless under the impression that he is outmatched. Will he think he's outmatched with Batman?
Snake used it the second he was out of sight, he spent the rest of the cutscene just trying to get away (since going into camo-mode when he's right in front of the enemy wouldn't help). He's not cocky enough to try and engage Batman up-front unless it's his only option, so he will definitely go into stealth-mode as soon as the battle starts (it's kinda his thing after all)
I doubt Solid's camo suit has come across anything as advanced as Batman's detective vision.
Which brings me to my next point. You say that Batman's gear will help him get an edge over his opponent, but it's not like Snake isn't without his own gadgets.
Otacon explains Snake's Solid Eye device, which can pretty much do everything you listed for Detective Mode, plus more. Now, you might think that this puts the two of them at even ground technological, but you need to account for the fact that the Solid Eye goes hand-in-hand with OctoCamo. Basically, Snake will be able to see Batman at all times, whereas Batman will not be able to see Snake through the OctoCamo. I don't need to explain how big of an advantage this is, since they both rely on stealth quite a lot. However once again, Snake comes in ahead on that topic. When Batman fights enemies using firearms, he needs stealth to beat them. Snake of course, uses firearms. And he's a heckuva lot more proficient with them than anyone else Batman has faced save for Deadshot... who again, Batman only beat by using stealth. If he can not use stealth here, then the match is already won, and all Snake needs is his Solid Eye and a rifle.
You can see here that Old Snake was a skilled enough marksman to beat Vamp, a legit superhuman with speed to actually blitz a bullet timer, casually deflect automatic gunfire with a knife, and even run across water. Canonically, Snake killed him with a pistol. This is actually pretty similar to how a Batman vs Snake fight would go: a martial artist limited to close quarters fighting, attempts to close the gap with his speed and agility, but gets gunned down by the master marksman Solid Snake.
Here Solid Snake beats another bullet timer by using guns, Olga Gurlukovich. Now she isn't quite as fast as Vamp, but Snake was majorly handicapped by his singleshot and highly inaccurate tranquilizer pistol, not to mention he had to dodge all her shots at the same time. Yet he still won.
That's two bullet timers Snake has shot. Both are definitely a lot faster than Batman, so he can probably shoot Batman too.
Skip to 4:20. Batman uses his disruptor to jam Mr Freeze's gun. Which I'd argue is more complex than a standard pistol. In fact, while Solid is trying to fire his weapon, that alone is enough time for Batman to move in.
Now, that's just completely out of context I'm afraid. Batman wasn't using any firearm jammer, the device he used was created by Mr. Freeze himself for the exact purpose of disabling his own blaster.
22:12 - 23:10
A firearm is mechanical, not technological, so I'm pretty sure it'd actually be impossible to create a device that would jam one.
4. a microwave hallway when it was supposed to evaporate any living organism in seconds. Keyword - "Supposed". Was this actually proven in any other instance? Moreover, sonics and microwave ovens aren't even comparable in terms of effects. I'd still argue that sonics in a feasible tactic that can be used.
Well, it's a microwave. Those things are crazy.
I know the effects are a lot different compared to sonics. I was just referencing it as a general endurance feat. If Snake can bare through that hallway, he can bare the effects of a sonic device long enough for his Solid Eye to pick up the source (which it would do automatically before Batman even throws it) and destroy it.
On that note, yet another advantage the Solid Eye has over Detective Mode is it's ability to scan and analyze the gear and weapons held by an enemy. Bruce has a lot of gadgets, but David won't be caught off guard by any of them. He just needs a few seconds to read the display (which won't take long for a guy with a 180 IQ)
Explosive Gel, Smoke Pellets, Sonics, Electical Charge, heck even Freeze Pellets that were able to incapacitate Clayface in Arkham City would suffice in helping bring down Snake. Batman's greatest assets here is his gadgets, which I'd say are enough to bring Snake down.
Like I said, Snake will be prepared for all this, not to mention he has his own counters to everything. Explosive gel? Grenades and C4 are both much more powerful, strategic, and can be used at range. Smoke pellets? Snake has smoke grenades and Solid Eye to see through anything. Electrical gun? A real gun is sure to hurt a lot more, and Solid Snake is packing an entire arsenal. Freeze pellets? Incendiary grenades would get ya right out. The only thing Snake can't directly match is sonics, but those are easily dispatched as I've been over. To be honest, the gear that Snake packs is not only much more powerful than Batman's, but probably more diverse. There goes Batman's number 1 advantage.
While that is fair, Batman has used the gun literally in close quarters against Mad Hatter's bodyguards.
If it does take Snake in close quarters, which is another feasible tactic, I have no doubt Solid can take it, but even still, Solid will be swinging around for enough time so Batman can lay into him.
Solid Snake is THE CQC expert. A style that literally revolves around using firearms in close quarters. Bruce isn't catching him off guard with his own trick!
Regardless, here's another electricity-resistance feat for Snake, where he survives three shocks of his own Stun Knife as it's lodged inside his body. A single slash is enough to KO any SOP enhanced soldier, so it's definitely more powerful than Batman's stun gun. But Snake took the shocks when the knife was stabbed. That's indescribably worse than being slashed! And he took three of them! While getting punched in the face by his brother! As an old man!!! Suffice to say, a Solid Snake in his prime should not be overly affected by a blast from Batman's stun gun, should he get tagged.
At 5:00. Here we have Batman outmuscling his way out of Grundy's grasp. If you've ever had someone try to open your hand via thumb, you'd know that naturally you'd squeeze tighter. Same could be said for this particular feat..
That's true, but Batman was still using his entire body with perfect leverage to overpower just Grundy's one finger. And that version of Grundy wasn't even a 1 tonner, it was an effort for him to toss around those iron balls.
A similar feat that Snake has is getting Vamp into a chokehold.
But Vamp was at least a 10 tonner.
So Snake is still stronger.
In the tie-ins we have Batman hoist a car that's about to drive off, up into the air. Very impressive showing.
It looks to me like he hooked his grapple gun to the roof in the fourth scan and let it hoist the car alone.
And again, Deadshot has no reason what so ever to pull his shots. Heck in Arkham City, Deadshot was tasked to killing Batman. I really don't think Solid has faced anyone on Deadshot's level.
Revolver Ocelot did this.
Didn't even touch Raiden's hand.
In fact, Batman has saved a victim from Deadshot, and although it looks kind of iffy because the game developers weren't cinematic experts until Origins, that feat is also impressive. (If you want that video, just holla. I don't want to video spam)
If you're referring to Jack Ryder, Batman already had him out of the way before Deadshot pulled the trigger.
Never heard of "Harley's Revenge" but by the sound of the title itself, I'd probably consider it PIS.
It was the DLC for Arkham City silly. I don't think it's PIS, Arkham Batman was never much of a bullet timer.
In the tie-ins Batman has also done the disappearing act multiple times. If you want more scans, I'll have to go back to scan them but here's one to get me started:
As has Snake.
It's becoming pretty evident that whatever Batman can do, Solid Snake can do too.
In fact, I don't actually think I've seen Batman completely defeated in the games nor comic tie-ins.
What about Bane? You're the one who posted the clip!!
Batman has feats ranging from fighting fodder thugs, fodder Titan enhanced thugs, fodder guards, Hammer and Sickle, Killer Croc, Bane (who Batman has killed but brought him back to life with shock gauntlets), Poison Ivy, Grundy, fodder ninja assassins, just people ranging from all over the place.
Most of these characters weren't fought with just H2H. I'm not saying that beating Poison Ivy etc aren't very impressive showings of skill - just not raw H2H skill.
The real skill is fighting Shiva, Deathstroke, and Copperhead, in my opinion. Black Mask had a 50 million dollar bounty on Batman, I'd say he only hired the best in the business. We know Deadshot is, so I don't see how the others would shy away from being as skilled.
The best in the world go after Snake too. There's a reason he's known in the Black Ops world as "The Man Who Makes The Impossible, Possible." When there's no hope left and the world is already doomed, that's when you call in Solid Snake and tell him to go kill X to save everybody. And he'll do it too, of course. He's shown his expertise against Gurlukovich's army, the greatest mercenary task force in the world, Genome Soldiers, genetically enhanced peak humans and more highly trained than any other military unit in the world, and of course the PMCs of 2014 enhanced by the Sons of The Patriots system. In terms of canon fodder, I think Snake takes the cake. Gurlukovich>Thugs, Genomes>=League of Assassins, and FROGs>TITAN thugs.
Then of course there's FOXHOUND, Dead Cell, and the Beauty and the Beast Corp, all mythical units of super enhanced soldiers, all eradicated by Solid Snake... and sometimes Raiden.
Those guys serve mainly to show Snake's tactical skill and stealth. If you want raw CQC combat, then Solid Snake still has feats that surpass Batman's: Gray Fox, Ocelot, Liquid Snake, guys easily in Batman's league. I can talk about it all day. However, since I'm still aiming for the stealth-strategy, I won't bother. My basic plan goes like this:
I can't help but notice how you almost completely lowballed everything in my counter.
Ah but the thing is, Bane has only ever broken Batman's back when on Venom. So perhaps Batman's back was injured after that move, but by no means did Bane snap his spine. That said, an injured back is all it took to completely defeat Batman, who was unable to recover and could only whack at Bane's feet from his position on the floor.
Why you consider that a defeat is completely beyond me. Batman was momentarily stunned by Bane's breaking the bat move, at most. Other than that Batman was trying to get out of Bane's hold. I don't see how that's a defeat in your eyes. Batman was still fighting. The fight isn't over until someone stops fighting. If anything Batman beat Bane when he killed him, besides that, they have always stalemated.
Also, I don't know why we keep doubling back to will and the limits they'd go through. I put more spin on how much physical trauma Batman can endure, which evidently is more impressive then what Snake can dish out.
In regards to Ocelot dealing steel denting blows. How is that quantifiable? He did give Snake some sort of sedative so he can fight on even grounds, how far does that type of honour for him go? It makes his blows questionable to say the least. In regards to the "drawing no blood" argument, why are you so sure he didn't draw blood? That could be a cinematic mess up, Batman barely drew blood in his games.
I think you're lowballing how advanced this tool is. You're limiting it to x ray (which btw I haven't even seen a counter to how that wouldn't work on Snake's camo). X Ray doesn't reach that level of range and although this is probably a more advanced version it still doesn't explain the soundwaves you get when people speak or when you throw a sonic batarang into the floor to lure enemies. There are so many other things interfering to just limit it to "X Ray". The cowl is probably influenced by a ton of other things.
Snake used it the second he was out of sight, he spent the rest of the cutscene just trying to get away (since going into camo-mode when he's right in front of the enemy wouldn't help). He's not cocky enough to try and engage Batman up-front unless it's his only option, so he will definitely go into stealth-mode as soon as the battle starts (it's kinda his thing after all)
If this is true, I don't think it'd work anyway. Considering Batman will have tabs on Snake where ever he is. So Snake getting away from Batman is one thing, blending with the environment is another, and I wouldn't even bank on Snake fleeing from Batman considering he'd probably appear around every corner Snake turns.
In regards to the jammer, I don't think its out of context at all. Sure THAT specific jammer was used for Mr Freeze's tech, but come the purchasable upgrades and Batman's updated version can jam normal guns as well as Mr Freeze's gun in his fight with Freeze, which can only work once. The only gun it failed on was Deadshot's (I've tried), who must have some sort of anti-jamming tech.
I'm not too worried about Snake's solid eye device to be honest. Not when Batman has Snake's firearms jammed.
On that note, yet another advantage the Solid Eye has over Detective Mode is it's ability to scan and analyze the gear and weapons held by an enemy. Bruce has a lot of gadgets, but David won't be caught off guard by any of them. He just needs a few seconds to read the display (which won't take long for a guy with a 180 IQ)
Batman can do this too, unfortunately Batman's gear is more advanced than standard c4, frags, AK's or something no other and his deduction feats are far superior than Snake's. So Batman would have Snake's gear figured out long before Snake has Batman's gear figured out.
Like I said, Snake will be prepared for all this.
Yeah because he has seen freeze pellets, explosive gel, sonics, and charge guns are right?
Not to mention he has his own counters to everything. Explosive gel? Grenades and C4 are both much more powerful, strategic, and can be used at range. Smoke pellets? Snake has smoke grenades and Solid Eye to see through anything. Electrical gun? A real gun is sure to hurt a lot more, and Solid Snake is packing an entire arsenal. Freeze pellets? Incendiary grenades would get ya right out. The only thing Snake can't directly match is sonics, but those are easily dispatched as I've been over. To be honest, the gear that Snake packs is not only much more powerful than Batman's, but probably more diverse. There goes Batman's number 1 advantage.
I'd agree that Snake packs more lethality, but other than that, its nothing Batman hasn't faced before. In comparison, Snake hasn't seen any of Batman's gear before. I chuckled at Snake's counter for freeze pellets though, Snake is going to intentionally set himself ablaze to negate the freezing effects?
Regardless, here's another electricity-resistance feat for Snake, where he survives three shocks of his own Stun Knife as it's lodged inside his body. A single slash is enough to KO any SOP enhanced soldier, so it's definitely more powerful than Batman's stun gun. But Snake took the shocks when the knife was stabbed. That's indescribably worse than being slashed! And he took three of them! While getting punched in the face by his brother! As an old man!!! Suffice to say, a Solid Snake in his prime should not be overly affected by a blast from Batman's stun gun, should he get tagged.
Impressive, but Batman's electrical stun gun has incapacitated Hammer long enough for Batman to make a run. Hammer has the durability to tank hits from Killer Croc without a drop of blood.
This too is enough charge to power elevators, open doors, etc. Doesn't change the fact that Snake isn't completely immune to the electrical effects. He's going to have a reflex or tightening of muscles or something.
It was the DLC for Arkham City silly. I don't think it's PIS, Arkham Batman was never much of a bullet timer.
Batman has reacted to bullets more times than not, I've shown plenty of instances of this.
Add to that the other feats I've posted. Pretty much makes Harley's Revenge feat PIS (IMO). So even though Snake is a formidable shooter, he hasn't really replicated those feats in pitch black against someone like Batman. Keep in mind, I'm just saying that if Batman doesn't use his gun jammer device. (Which would work).
Even if Snake does happen to shoot Batman, his armour protects him well enough.
6 bullets without a scratch.
In regards to Snake's strength, I didn't see Vamp resisting that grapple move Snake did. So how exactly does that make him stronger than Batman.
In regards to Batman's car hoisting feat, that little black rectangle thing was the grappling gun? Doesn't look like it. Looks like something that Batman latched the cable on to but other than that I don't see much else on the roof that would give Batman a strength boost.
CQC isn't a martial arts style. It's just fighting in close proximity with an opponent using whatever you need to do to win. I've already shown Batman dodging a point blank range shot from Deadshot (assuming Batman's disarming device fails for some unknown reason). Batman is also well adept in CQC, I've shown the feat where Batman uses his Electrical Charge against Mad Hatter's foes. Bruce has fought ninja's while completely unarmed.
Owns a room full of trained ninja flawlessly in very little time. Batman also makes short work of thugs as stated in Arkham Asylum. Batman is just as formidable in CQC in my opinion. Except, Batman has an array of equipment he can use in close quarters, whereas Snake has the possibility of a gun.
Snake starts shooting Batman.
Batman either tanks, deflects or dodges.
Batman smartly retreats.
Maintaining tabs on Snake and visa versa.
Both go into stealth mode.
Meanwhile Batman analyses Snake's standard everyday gear and jams Snake's gun.
Solid Eye detects Batman no matter where he's hiding. Detective Mode struggles to locate Snake.
I'll play along (Even though I'm still convinced Batman's detective mode can spot Snake).
David snipes Batman before he can react.
I say Batman takes a tough win 6/10 times.
The only advantage is David's questionable "steel denting" durability feat. Other than that, I'm not entirely convinced with your argument.
I'll make this quick and straight to the point. This maybe my last counter. I have a lot to do in the coming days.
Why would Ocelot hold back? He wanted an even fight with Snake, which is why he gave him the injection, but he didn't want to lose.
Sure he didn't want to lose. I just say they're questionable because he wanted to fight on even grounds. Plus the punches looked like they were probably getting progressively weaker. He looked rather tired out toward the end of that sequence. By the way, what does that injection do?
To be honest, I don't have a counter for Snake's offensive blows. They're impressive. Though Batman has taken his share of explosive force.
1:52:40 - Joker blows up the TV set in close proximity of Batman. The explosion arguably has more damaging effects of a grenade. Moreover, Batman lacing his own boots and gloves with explosive gel (which can bust through thick concrete walls) is also an impressive feat on his behalf. Both are going to have to go all out but I'd concede that Snake has better offensive punch.
Well X-Ray is definitely a big part of it. It has a lot of functions, but unless you can name something specific that counters the OctoCamo, we can't assume it will work on Snake.
Well you still haven't countered X-Ray. I might suggest Snake's heart rate giving him away and his trajectory.
That wouldn't be a good idea for Batman since he's the one on the defensive hear. He can't pursue Snake as strongly as you're implying because he can not stand up to Snake's firepower.
You're implying Snake fires right off the bat in every fight he's in? Do you have more proof of this? I want to see how in character Snake is.
Wouldn't that be considered gameplay mechanics though? Like I said, it's not really possible to remotely jam a firearm when they aren't electronic. And regardless, Batman needs to get within close range to lock onto his enemy's gun, and then it takes several seconds to charge. Snake would shoot him before his gun locks.
Its a little hard to read but I was going by in-game description.
"Remotely disables enemy firearms without the enemy being aware that the gun they are carrying has become jammed."
Then it goes on to say;
"This gadget can also be used to disable TYGA sentry guns and temporarily disable TYGA machine guns."
I'd hardly bring in the possibilities of Batman's gear into the debate. You might as well question the entirety of his gear. Lol.
And don't underestimate Solid Snake's intelligence. He's not "the world's greatest detective", but was still able to deduce the ambush Liquid had planned for him in the elevator, the fact that Psycho Mantis was casting an illusion, and even masterminded a plot to gain access to Arsenal Gear right under Solidus' and Ocelot's noses.
Just because Snake can deduce an ambush (which Batman has also done on multiple occasions), doesn't make him an expert in observation. Batman has cracked several cases within a nights work (Yes, this includes side missions).
Yeah, right. Don't underestimate the craziness of the MGS Universe.
That doesn't say much. Half of Batman's gear was literally crafted on the field. Unless Snake has crossed something LIKELY, I'm not sure how he's figuring out Batman's gear until Bruce utilizes it.
Yes. It wouldn't be the first time. After Metal Gear D's explosion, Snake was set on fire and all his gear was reduced to ashes, but he himself remained fine.
He can take the burn, doesn't mean he'd alight himself on purpose just to negate a freezing effect. Was this feat performed in his prime? Just curious.
Assuming he can't dodge it all together.
I've already shown scans of Batman using it on Walrus with the gun virtually touching him with the gun.
In regards to Vamp and Olga. Have you any scans of them dodging unexpected fire? It seems the majority of their scans are of them dodging bullets that their expecting. Being a better shooter doesn't make the bullet any faster. Batman has timed bullets on a consistent basis. Expected or unexpected. Being a skilled and tactical shooter like Deadshot > Solid Snake's marksmanship feats (in my opinion).
He's visibly grimacing as the bullets hit, and then states that it hurt a lot. In game it only takes a short burst of gunfire to down him; considering the firepower Snake packs, he can definitely get threw the armor eventually.
He said it hurts, but he never exaggerated how much. In game, yeah it takes Batman out easy, but that's gameplay mechanics. You even put the argument up that he'd rather avoid frontal confrontation with armed foes, which contradicts that.
He sure as hell didn't just let it happen.
Well he sure as hell didn't show signs of struggle lol.
I don't know about real life, but in MGS, CQC is considered the single most effective fighting styles in the world. It's a collection of different techniques taken from multiple forms of martial arts and reworked to integrate gunplay. Naked Snake and The Boss created it together during the Cold War, and Solid Snake is currently considered THE master of the art, along with CQB and a couple other militaristic fighting styles.
Well if that's MG lore, then fair enough. In real life, its just fighting in close proximity with the other opponent using anything around you to your advantage. Jason Bourne would acknowledge that XD. But fair enough.
If I can be honest, most of Batman's feats seem to be against canon fodder. Even the assassins of Arkham Origins don't have many feats on their own to justify a level of skill equivalent to their comic counterparts. I think Solid Snake's opponents are definitely a little higher on the food chain than Batman's. He's beaten Vamp twice in H2H; Vamp, one of the best blade fighters in the world and master of multiple forms of ninjitsu such as shadow binding, and muscle reading, and was able to fight on even ground with Cyborg Raiden through sheer martial arts.
I'm not going to lie, fighting fodder does hurt Batman here. But he takes them almost flawlessly. The LoA have proven to be rather strong (one being able to bust out of thick glass in the museum in Arkham City), rather agile and stealthy (following the blood trail), adept at ambush (shown when Batman is deciphering the robotic cameras, he is ambushed multiple times) and have shown to move with quick speed bursts. Batman takes four with little effort without his suit. In regards to Black Mask's hires, I'm just going off common sense. Deadshot has proven himself to be formidable and so has Bane. Shiva has commented on Batman's skill. I said it before, Batman doesn't have a lot of statements to go along with the skill he has showcased, but we can hardly ignore the feats he's performed. Batman has shown to be quite proficient in CQC himself and the sheer versatility he's faced shouldn't go unnoticed. In nearly everyone of Batman's boss battles, he's had to fight against more people such as additional thugs, Titans, Clayface soliders or is under the effects of hallucinates, poisons or seeing illusions. Batman has also faced armoured thugs and enhanced guards that nearly par Batman as well.
Notice that despite having similar physicals to Batman, not one soldier pulled the trigger on him.
What's your point? Snake can tank most of Batman's gadgets for awhile, but one bullet and it's over for Bruce. Seems like Snake has the advantage in that department.
I'm still iffy on if the gun will even work. Even if it does, Snake has to aim for the head. Body shots will cost him.
A Stinger Missile would absolutely demolish that glass pane, and if Liquid Snake is any indication, Solid Snake's fists pack more of a punch than said missiles.
So if Batman can severely crack bullet resistant glass in a single strike, he packs more force than a bullet? If explosive gel can pack similar force to a bit of c4 or dynamite to bust through thick walls, and can incapacitate a room full of guards, Batman with laced gauntlets can pack as much force as that?
As for speed, that's a no contest, especially combat wise considering Snake has dropped a room full of soldiers before any of them knew what was happening, and was described as a human whirlwind by Gary McGolden in the passage below.
Batman has also appeared all over the place in plenty of battles and has been described by both Joker's and Penguin's thugs as an uncontrollable animal, vicious, brutal, quick and efficient. He has disappeared in the blink of an eye etc. Its not like Batman couldn't react to him. I mean he looks rather slow in the cutscenes you've posted, but I shouldn't downplay that. It's not like Snake moves faster than bullets.
The "explosive gel on fist" tactic is a good idea, but Batman only tried it once, and that was at his most desperate moment.
He's done it a few times actually. Once on Joker, on TYGA guards with enhanced armour and on Titan enhanced foes. By the way, what's Snake's answer to tranquilizer's?
I think Snake's feats vs explosives prove that Bruce will break his arm doing that before he breaks Snake.
Batman can clearly withstand such forces.
Both combatants clearly have some advantages over the other, which makes the fight all the more interesting and entertaining. Snake's durability is better, while Batman's arsenal is better. Hand to hand combat is debatable. Batman has more versatility when it comes to CQC.
I'm not convinced David's camo can blanket itself from X-Ray let alone Batman being able to detect his heart rate. Batman's gear gives him a slight edge, and whilst I think Snake can take the punishment, I think it'll take a lot out of him. If tranqs work, Batman should win. So that's another counter on your behalf.
I'm done. I think I've covered pretty much everything Arkham Batman has to offer.
WILL - Arguably better. He has taken toxins, formulas, poisonous blood, and resisted them. He has had the life crushed out of him and has gotten back up to fight. He has fought through illusions and hallucinations. He has gotten back up from literally seeing his mother and father (Not sure how dead you have to be there but its still very impressive). And the dude is peak human.
STRENGTH - Debatable.
SPEED - Also debatable.
DURABILITY - I'd give the edge to David.
OFFENSIVE PUNCH - I'd give a slight edge to David here.
HAND TO HAND COMBAT - David is arguably better, I have to concede. Fighting near featless fodder does hurt Batman's argument.
GEAR - Batman clearly has the edge imo.
STEALTH - I believe no one here has the definitive edge.
In terms of the willpower comparison—MonsterStomp might as well hand Solid Snake a Green Power Ring for marriage proposal. Nickzambuto made it very clear that the will of a Snake is superior to a Bat, being able to resist the most powerful telepath on Earth. Batman in Arkham Asylum could hardly handle Scarecrow's fear gas.
Nick additionally established that Solid Snake is harder, better, faster, stronger. I've been convinced that Snake is just overall tougher, and perhaps superior even in stealth. What gave MonsterStomp's argument a major boo-boo was admitting to Batman's lack of noteworthy combat feats, fighting mostly fodder. It was proven that Snake is the master of CQC a couple other militaristic fighting styles, so he'd likely whoop Batman's butt. I also disliked that MonsterStomp brushed off Nick's point about Batman failing to dodge gunfire from Harley Quinn.
since Batman when caught off guard couldn't even dodge fire from Harley Quinn in "Harley's Revenge" and had to be rescued by Robin.
Never heard of "Harley's Revenge" but by the sound of the title itself, I'd probably consider it PIS.
☝This is rather lazy. Just because the DLC title involves Harley- he brushes it aside, hastily calls it PIS (without reason), and simply doesn't acknowledge the point. This leads me to believe Batman will NOT avoid Solid Snake's marksmanship, and will be taken down in a few shots. In the natural world, it seems the food chain favors the Snake over the Bat.
I vote for @Nickzambuto.
Sincerely,
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