#1 Edited by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio

Solid Snake

Batman

Conditions

  • In character
  • Random encounter
  • Arkham (video game series) Batman
  • Young Solid Snake
  • "City" gear for Batman
  • "GoTP" gear for Snake
  • Win by knock out or kill

Location

  • Both combatants begin face-to-face in the center of this warehouse
  • The location is unpopulated.
  • The lights are off

#2 Posted by MonsterStomp (25832 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Do you want me to throw down first or do you want to go first?

#3 Edited by Wolverine08 (49067 posts) - - Show Bio

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW SH%TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

It's about to go DOWN!

#4 Posted by Wolverine08 (49067 posts) - - Show Bio

I've argued with Nick a few times on regular threads, but have never seen him in a CaV. Wonder I'll be impressed.

#5 Posted by MonsterStomp (25832 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by NeonGameWave (11651 posts) - - Show Bio

I can`t wait!! This is going to be beyond awesome and it will be something special to remember!

#7 Posted by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Do you want me to throw down first or do you want to go first?

I'll post soon enough. If you want to post before then, go right ahead.

#8 Posted by Pierpat (4586 posts) - - Show Bio

I did not notice that meany great feats for bats in the games, but i'm sure mosterstomp will proof me wrong.

#9 Posted by MonsterStomp (25832 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by MonsterStomp (25832 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto

I win :P

On the real though, I do believe, given Batman's gear, he should take a majority win over Solid Snake.

Lets start with Batman's will to fight, because Batman isn't walking away from the fight flawlessly.

Will

In Arkham Origins, Batman has been able to take Bane's best blows and continue fighting.

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At 1:20 we see Bane's famous "Breaking the Bat" move. Batman is still able to fight through.

At 10:15 we see Batman take Bane's toughest blows and he is still able to get up and fight.

Keep in mind that Bane has been able to one shot Titan enhanced thugs.

In Arkham Asylum, Batman is still very impressive.

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At 8:35 Scarecrow states that Batman had just ingested enough toxin to drive 10 men insane and questions what he is.

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At 0:25 Batman resists the Titan formula from taking over him.

In the Arkham tie-ins, it should be noted that Batman did fight for his life in the fight with Joker.

Joker clearly notes that he crushed the life out of him and his laughs were louder than the cracks of his bones.

In any fight against this guy, be assured that you'll get all of it. As long as Batman breathes, you'll be fighting.

Gear

Batman's detective mode comes very handy in a fight that may come to stealth. It can detect the lasting disperse of alcohol in the atmosphere and has been able to trace Jim Gordon's tobacco. We all know Solid is a heavy smoker, so tracking him through the dark shouldn't be hard at all.

Sonic batarangs

No idea why these scans are showing up out of order. Batman's sonics are enough to shatter glass and drop a group of TYGA guards.

Electrical Charge

Is enough to incapacitate a gang.

It should be noted that the big hammer dude (known as "Hammer") has squared off against Killer Croc.

Explosive Gel

Batman has been able to use his explosive gel for more than just punching holes in walls. He has laced his fists and boots with it on multiple occasions, to boost his damage output.

Reflexes

Batman has been able to dodge a point blank range shot from Deadshot. Keep in mind, Deadshot from the Arkhamverse doesn't hold the same morals with Batman as comic Deadshot does.

Deadshot does have feats with his wrist guns too. As seen in the Arkham Origins assassin introduction.

Dodging a rocket fired by Joker.

Skill

I do have a feeling that Batman will try and bring the fight to hand to hand or close quarters to say the least. Its in character for Batman to evade foes packing heat and go stealth. Smoke Pellets should help with that. Detective mode will be able to spot Snake in the dark room and his disruptor would jam Snake's gun without him noticing. After that, I believe Batman can hold his own formidably in hand to hand.

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Owns an army (not literally) of thugs. In the tie-in comics, Robin actually goes undercover. He finds out that a group of entrees are thrown in a pit and the last man standing is hired. I'd assume these are the best of Penguin's thugs.

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Batman has also shown massive amounts of skill in his fight with Deathstroke.

Conclusion

  • Batman has the will to fight until his dying breath. So Snake shouldn't underestimate him for a second, because as long as Batman lives, Snake is still fighting.
  • I specifically put a play on sonics, electrical charge and explosive gel for the time being. If sonics effect Snake, its over. The electrical charge can be used at close quarters (I forgot to post scans, but if you want proof, I have it). The explosive gel can lace in with his fists and boots to pack a devastating punch on Snake.
  • Batman has bullet timing reflexes. He has dodged a point blank shot from Deadshot, who handles far more difficult shots. Batman has also dodged a rocket fired by Joker.
  • Batman has formidable skill to say the least. Although he doesn't have the statements to back up his skill, you can't discount his skill. He has been able to handle Deathstroke, and Ra's (both being swordsmen). He has handled the LoA. He has handled fodder thugs and guards. He has handled highly trained assassins.

#11 Posted by tparks (6635 posts) - - Show Bio

Look at all of those cardboard boxes! This is like Solid Snake heaven!

#12 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

Look at all of those cardboard boxes! This is like Solid Snake heaven!

Solid Snake will have a hard time fighting when he keeps having orgasms.

#13 Edited by tparks (6635 posts) - - Show Bio
#14 Posted by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: If you want to argue that Batman's will gives him an edge in battle, do it against someone other than Solid Snake. This is a no-brainer, but I feel I should still point it out; David is never at a disadvantage when it comes to endurance. It's actually one of his signature skills, having famously resisted Revolver Ocelot's electrical torture on Shadow Moses just to protect Meryl.

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Keep in mind, Snake survived at least five sessions in whole just like the one shown above, and never gave up throughout.

He also resisted the most powerful (not one of the; just THE) telepath on the entire planet.

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4:07 - 4:13 Mantis, a man who can reportedly cause natural disasters on a whim and was an effortless village buster as a child, who's psychic abilities were powerful enough to keep the entire Genome Army under his command, completely enslave Meryl Silverburgh, and mindrape Frank Jaeger despite of the cyborg's impressive psychic resistance (Gene, another telepath, was unable to control Frank, but Mantis nearly destroyed him), and was actually powerful enough to literally will himself back to life during Liquid Ocelot's insurrection, was left in utter shock of his inability to combat Solid Snake. The soldier sums things up quite nicely.

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The comic book goes a bit more in-depth, with Snake breaking free from Mantis's illusions and straight up denying his attempt at mindrape.

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Here's Vulcan Raven talking about Snake's will.

And of course there's the inhuman, sadistic gauntlet that Solid Snake somehow endured known as the entirety of Metal Gear Solid 4. I can post pretty much every cutscene from that game and find feats in each of them. I'll be merciful to the readers and just sum up some cliffs:

  1. Continues fighting long after SOP interference has incapacitated every other soldier in the Middle East, and survives despite most other soldiers dropping dead instantly.
  2. Was able to keep moving and outrace a bunch of Gekkos almost immediately after getting violently tossed around Drebin's van when it crashed.
  3. Survives another major crash off a racing motorcycle and goes on to fight Raging Raven despite Eva's protests.
  4. Endures Liquid's brutal beatdown which included being stabbed three times and receiving fatal electric shocks each time.
  5. Jumps into a pit of fire to save Eva and survives an explosion that leaves horrible burn scars across his face.
  6. Hurts his back leaping from Otacon's helicopter.
  7. Brutal battle against Vamp.
  8. Piloted Metal Gear REX with the cockpit open and survived RAY's kung-fu moves, then chased after Liquid with a broken leg and arm, and while bleeding from the head.
  9. Gets catapulted five stories into the air and into Haven's deck, despite being on an oxygen tank hours before.
  10. FROG gauntlet.

And keep in mind, this is all using a 70 year old body with arthritis that can barely take in oxygen, and while battling constant seizures.

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Everything comes to a head when Old Snake is forced to enter the microwave corridor, still fresh off the effects of his worst seizure thus far (notice how he struggles to walk even before actually entering)

So just to summarize, if Batman is banking on Snake giving up before he does, then the match is already won.

I'll post my full rebuttal in the morning, since this has already gotten pretty long.

#15 Edited by MonsterStomp (25832 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto

That's the point I was getting at. I knew Snake has exceptional will, I was proving that they're at least equal in that respect. I should have added this, but in Arkham City when Batman was heading towards Ra's, Batman literally saw the light to his parents, but he got back up. Very impressive.

I'll wait for your full post before I counter properly.

#16 Edited by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: Then we're in agreement on that front. However, will power is not the same thing as stamina and pain tolerance. Batman is a very strong character, I can not stress that enough, but compared to a Super Soldier, he is at a fundamental disadvantage right from the get-go. Snake down to his DNA was literally created for the purpose of expressing an abundance in genes responsible for resilience, and fighting ability. He's a lot tougher than Batman, to put it bluntly, and if it becomes a drag-out endurance fight, the soldier absolutely wins in my opinion. They might be matched in will power, but Bruce Wayne's body will give out before Snake's does.

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His fight against Liquid Ocelot proves that without a doubt, where a beaten and battered Old Snake defeats overcomes his rival, literally through raw endurance and nothing else (those shots were keeping the SOP seizures at bay and only increased their stamina the bare minimum). Batman surviving those hits from Bane is impressive (even if it was mostly gameplay *whistles*) but the "break the bat" move had him completely incapacitated. By comparison, Ocelot had Old Snake on the ground at 2:40 and savagely wailed on his face nearly two dozen times, but was simply incapable of drawing blood, or really dealing any lasting damage whatsoever. Keep in mind, Ocelot dented the steel hull of Outer Haven with that exact same punch at 1:37, and was probably a lot stronger than Bane without venom to boot.

12:10 The fight scene is implied to have lasted at least a few hours. Old Snake is clearly absolutely exhausted but still keeps fighting. You're trying to claim that, so long as Batman is breathing, he'll be fighting, but Solid Snake has actually proven that is true for him, with no exaggeration.

The scene with Bane on venom putting Bruce through the wall is a lot more impressive, but again, Batman was more or less helpless again and only survived thanks to his gadget (great showing of reflexes though). It doesn't compare with Snake taking hits from the Cyborg Ninja, or surviving getting kicked by Metal Gear RAY.

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Here's one of my favorite feats. Solid Snake, after bursting through a pair of handcuffs through nothing but raw, unadulterated testosterone, dives off Arsenal Gear and into the ocean at a height of over 300 feet, whereas human bones would break at just 90 feet. He proceeds to outswim a giant robot and place a tracking device on Liquid, without being noticed no less, then swim just over 20 miles back to shore, and when he's finally on land, sprints all the way to Federal Hall, all in the time it took Raiden to sword fight Solidus.

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Another outrageous feat that gets overlooked is Solid Snake straight up tanking a sniper rifle round straight through his shoulder.

Basically my point is, David's pain tolerance coupled with actual durability will provide major issues for Batman. I don't see Bruce actually putting him down.

Now as for Batman's gear, an interesting fact has come to my attention. It seems like Solid Snake's gear is pretty much tailor made to counter everything in Batman's arsenal. You probably think you're at some big advantage with your fancy shmancy detective mode; after all, Snake's greatest weapon is his stealth, which would be useless against an opponent who can always see him. Right? RIGHT??... Not right.

Batman's detective mode comes very handy in a fight that may come to stealth. It can detect the lasting disperse of alcohol in the atmosphere and has been able to trace Jim Gordon's tobacco. We all know Solid is a heavy smoker, so tracking him through the dark shouldn't be hard at all.

Fun fact: Snake's cigarettes were designed to cut down on second-hand smoke and be undetectable. Coupled with the fact that Batman could only follow Gordon's trail because the commissioner purposely left a trail of tobacco on the ground for that exact purpose, and it becomes evident that Batman will not be able to track Snake just by his smokes. As for detective mode itself, Snake's OctoCamo suit nullifies that.

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Otacon explains Snake's OctoCamo suit. I'm on clip-overload here so you don't need to watch this if you don't want to; basically the suit that Snake wears is an active camouflage system that mimics the color, pattern, and even texture of whatever surface he's pressed up against, and in addition, renders him completely immune to infrared and radar imaging.

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This is the important video, with Snake fighting Gekkos and dodging machine gun fire. What happens at 2:20 is very important to this match. Not only is the Gekko unable to locate Snake from the cigarette he left behind, but it can not detect Snake's presence with it's vision modes either.

It was a nice strategy you came up with, but Batman is hardly the first person to try and beat the stealth master by tracing his cigarettes, nor is he the first to come equipped with an HUD.

Then there's the sonic batarangs. Easy counter: Snake shoots them.

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If he can sniper Cipher drones directly in their turrets which are about the same size as a batarang, then he can shoot a batarang lying on the ground. I doubt it would instantly incapacitate him, what with the feat of spending over 5 minutes in a microwave hallway when it was supposed to evaporate any living organism in seconds.

Next is the electrical charge... Snake is a bullet timer, simple as that. He's not going to get hit with Batman's stun gun when he's consistently stalemated the likes of Revolver Ocelot, one of the best trickshots in fiction.

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5:00 - 6:30 I don't think this needs any more counter than that. If by any chance Snake does get tagged... well, that's where the Ocelot torture feat comes in.

The DGN has him literally smoking.

And finally, the explosive gel. Now, I'll be honest, coating his fist and punching Snake might be the only way for Batman to actually put David down. It's not a guarantee though. This might sound silly since that move defeated Titan Joker, but I am actually confident that Batman's arm will break before Snake is KOed. He has tanked worse explosions, believe it or not, a prime example being Fatman's C4 bomb that nearly destroyed all of Strut 2 on the Big Shell (beyond building busting basically, and Snake was at ground zero)

The explosion happened off-screen in game, but Raiden actually felt it all the way from Strut A of Shell 1.

That's the comic panel though, if you're curious.

Snake also tanked getting nuked by Liquid's attack chopper.

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Now I know you're thinking that some of these feats are too ridiculous to be true, but Solid Snake has always been more than just peak human. His soldier genes actually put him more in like with Captain America and Black Panther, rather than Batman or Daredevil.

Now, up till this point I've mainly been countering and defending. It's time to get into the meat of things and prove why Solid Snake undoubtedly has what it takes to defeat the Batman. First matter is physicals... where, I'm afraid Arkham Batman has always been lacking.

Batman has been able to dodge a point blank range shot from Deadshot. Keep in mind, Deadshot from the Arkhamverse doesn't hold the same morals with Batman as comic Deadshot does.

One bullet? That he was literally staring straight at and had plenty of time to react to? This is probably Arkham Batman's best speed feat, and while I'm not saying it's unimpressive, it's really nothing in Solid Snake's league. He did more or less the same thing against Olga.

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I can actually argue the Deadshot instance is aim dodging, since Batman when caught off guard couldn't even dodge fire from Harley Quinn in "Harley's Revenge" and had to be rescued by Robin.

Dodging a rocket fired by Joker.

Big deal, Old Snake could do that. Young Snake surfed on them!

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That's really more or less the only two speed feats Arkham Batman has to his name, both of which have been easily replicated by Solid Snake. The soldier on the other hand, has a multitude of feats that I do not see Arkham Batman replicating, not the least of which being that Ocelot battle I posted.

Durability I've gone over. And strength is a no-brainer; Batman looks beefier, but I don't see him beating a Cyborg Ninja half to death with his bare hands or wielding a Rail Gun packing more recoil than a tank turret as if it were a rifle.

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And finally we have the matter of actual combat skill. I believe the clips I've already posted should suffice on that matter. I really don't think Penguin's thug army is a feat Snake couldn't replicate considering the tier he usually fights on, consisting of foes like Gray Fox, a class 100+ Cyborg Ninja that can outrace bullets, and was pulling off crap at the age of 9 that Ra's al Ghul would raise an eyebrow at (Batman fought Deathstroke; Frank Jaeger is Deathstroke x 100) and also Revolver Ocelot, a man who was skilled enough in CQC to stalemate the creator of the style after just watching him do it, and then continued training for another 5 decades before fighting Solid Snake. I've showed clips of Snake defeating them both above.

CQC is really an incredibly powerful and versatile style, taking numerous techniques from a multitude of different martial art disciplines and reworking them to be weapon compatible; as in the user isn't just limited to Hand to Hand, he can shoot you at the same time. Solid Snake has mastered this style.

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However, all that said, this battle will most likely not come down to hand to hand combat, as I will detail in my next post. Until then, I await your rebuttal.

#17 Posted by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Posted by oceanmaster21 (11997 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: i have never played metal gear rising is it worth the hype

#19 Posted by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: i have never played metal gear rising is it worth the hype

Hell yes, especially if you're a fan of the series already. Rising does an extraordinary job of keeping with the tone and themes of past games, which is pretty surprising considering it's obvious deviations.

However if you haven't played the rest of the series and are just looking for a good action game, I still can't recommend anything more than I can Revengeance. The combat is some of the best I've ever seen in a hack n' slash game (coming from a hack n' slash fan) and the story is self contained enough to enjoy, with all it's great characters.

#20 Posted by oceanmaster21 (11997 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Posted by MonsterStomp (25832 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Sorry mate. I should have told you I was away for work. I'll get my counter up.

#22 Edited by MonsterStomp (25832 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto

However, will power is not the same thing as stamina and pain tolerance.

While this is correct, Batman had broken bones in his fight with Joker and although it was never stated, Batman probably had a broken back after Bane's "breaking the bat" move, considering it has broken his back in many other instances. Batman has massive pain tolerance and for a guy who is seemingly peak human, he has done some pretty inhumanly things.

but the "break the bat" move had him completely incapacitated

I wouldn't say completely. He was temporarily incapacitated until Bane stood on Batman's neck.

You're trying to claim that, so long as Batman is breathing, he'll be fighting, but Solid Snake has actually proven that is true for him, with no exaggeration.

It seems its true for both combatants to say the least. Ocelot whaling on Snake with steel denting punches is very impressive, but what's harder? Denting steel hulls or shattering bullet resistant glass in two hits in which Batman has done in the opening scene of Arkham Asylum. Coupled with that explosive gel which is able to bust holes in concrete walls and Batman has a superior striking power than Ocelot, in my opinion.

If anything, I concede Snake is tougher than Batman.

Basically my point is, David's pain tolerance coupled with actual durability will provide major issues for Batman. I don't see Bruce actually putting him down.

This maybe true, but you haven't suggested anything to do that same for Batman.

Stealth

With that out of the way, I feel I need to address Solid's stealth.

Detective Mode is more than just infrared and radar. I doubt Solid's camo suit has come across anything as advanced as Batman's detective vision. It's been able to detect alcohol in the atmosphere long after the suspect has left the room. It has detected blood, so if Snake bleeds in this fight, tracking him will be simple. It has some kind of advance sonar vision, capable of seeing through walls, seeing human skeletons and detecting heart rate. It can trace fingerprints etc. It can nullify the blinding effects of smoke pellets. It can calculate trajectory. It can give the most in depth analytical review of Hush's victims. Moreover, it doesn't look like Snake uses the active camo unless under the impression that he is outmatched. Will he think he's outmatched with Batman?

If it can do all that and some, I'm pretty sure it can bypass the effects of mimicking the colour, pattern and texture.

Gear

Then there's the sonic batarangs. Easy counter: Snake shoots them.

If he can sniper Cipher drones directly in their turrets which are about the same size as a batarang, then he can shoot a batarang lying on the ground. I doubt it would instantly incapacitate him, what with the feat of spending over 5 minutes in a microwave hallway when it was supposed to evaporate any living organism in seconds.

1. The fight is in a fairly dark room by the looks of it. Spotting a small batarang that can be imbedded anywhere on the map will be insanely difficult.

2. Batman is a crack shot at throwing Batarangs. I just thought I'd say that before it was brought up. Review the following scans (May not be in order for some effed up reason).

Here he is able to throw 3 batarangs in the hands of 3 different guards.

Not impressive enough? Here Batman throws but one batarang and it knocks three guards down. Lets not forget the feat where Batman actually throws a sonic batarang that ricocheted off a wall and imbedded into the ground.

3. How is Solid suppose to shoot his gun when Batman can jam it with Snake knowing until he tries to fire it?

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Skip to 4:20. Batman uses his disruptor to jam Mr Freeze's gun. Which I'd argue is more complex than a standard pistol. In fact, while Solid is trying to fire his weapon, that alone is enough time for Batman to move in.

4. a microwave hallway when it was supposed to evaporate any living organism in seconds. Keyword - "Supposed". Was this actually proven in any other instance? Moreover, sonics and microwave ovens aren't even comparable in terms of effects. I'd still argue that sonics in a feasible tactic that can be used.

Next is the electrical charge... Snake is a bullet timer, simple as that. He's not going to get hit with Batman's stun gun when he's consistently stalemated the likes of Revolver Ocelot, one of the best trickshots in fiction.

While that is fair, Batman has used the gun literally in close quarters against Mad Hatter's bodyguards.

If it does take Snake in close quarters, which is another feasible tactic, I have no doubt Solid can take it, but even still, Solid will be swinging around for enough time so Batman can lay into him.

Strength

I had a feeling this'd come up. Arkham Batman is arguably 1-2 ton strength. Although there are limited showings, his standard showings are nothing to ignore.

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At 5:00. Here we have Batman outmuscling his way out of Grundy's grasp. If you've ever had someone try to open your hand via thumb, you'd know that naturally you'd squeeze tighter. Same could be said for this particular feat..

In the tie-ins we have Batman hoist a car that's about to drive off, up into the air. Very impressive showing.

Speed

One bullet? That he was literally staring straight at and had plenty of time to react to? This is probably Arkham Batman's best speed feat, and while I'm not saying it's unimpressive, it's really nothing in Solid Snake's league.

Excuse me, that same bullet could drop a squad of SWAT in the assassin introduction in Arkham Origins :D. And again, Deadshot has no reason what so ever to pull his shots. Heck in Arkham City, Deadshot was tasked to killing Batman. I really don't think Solid has faced anyone on Deadshot's level.

In fact, Batman has saved a victim from Deadshot, and although it looks kind of iffy because the game developers weren't cinematic experts until Origins, that feat is also impressive. (If you want that video, just holla. I don't want to video spam)

since Batman when caught off guard couldn't even dodge fire from Harley Quinn in "Harley's Revenge" and had to be rescued by Robin.

Never heard of "Harley's Revenge" but by the sound of the title itself, I'd probably consider it PIS.

In the tie-ins Batman has also done the disappearing act multiple times. If you want more scans, I'll have to go back to scan them but here's one to get me started:

In Arkham Asylum Batman jumped in front of Gordon to tank the Titan formula (I've posted the video above).

I'd say Batman is still pretty darn fast for peak human. Though Snake is still probably faster, I'd have to concede.

Hand to hand

I didn't know Snake was that formidable, but Batman shouldn't be underestimated either. The only difference between the two combatants is that Snake actually has statements to go along with his skill. Batman just has skill to go along with his skill. In fact, I don't actually think I've seen Batman completely defeated in the games nor comic tie-ins.

Batman has feats ranging from fighting fodder thugs, fodder Titan enhanced thugs, fodder guards, Hammer and Sickle, Killer Croc, Bane (who Batman has killed but brought him back to life with shock gauntlets), Poison Ivy, Grundy, fodder ninja assassins, just people ranging from all over the place.

The real skill is fighting Shiva, Deathstroke, and Copperhead, in my opinion. Black Mask had a 50 million dollar bounty on Batman, I'd say he only hired the best in the business. We know Deadshot is, so I don't see how the others would shy away from being as skilled. Other than that I'd still say Batman has the skill to hold his own formidably if it came to close quarters.

Conclusion

Explosive Gel, Smoke Pellets, Sonics, Electical Charge, heck even Freeze Pellets that were able to incapacitate Clayface in Arkham City would suffice in helping bring down Snake. Batman's greatest assets here is his gadgets, which I'd say are enough to bring Snake down.

#23 Posted by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp

While this is correct, Batman had broken bones in his fight with Joker and although it was never stated, Batman probably had a broken back after Bane's "breaking the bat" move, considering it has broken his back in many other instances. Batman has massive pain tolerance and for a guy who is seemingly peak human, he has done some pretty inhumanly things.

I wouldn't say completely incapacitated. He was temporarily incapacitated until Bane stood on Batman's neck.

Ah but the thing is, Bane has only ever broken Batman's back when on Venom. So perhaps Batman's back was injured after that move, but by no means did Bane snap his spine. That said, an injured back is all it took to completely defeat Batman, who was unable to recover and could only whack at Bane's feet from his position on the floor. If it were Snake who took that hit, he'd probably grunt like he always does and then get up, slightly winded. In fact, there's a great scene in MGS4 that perfectly explains my point about Snake's endurance.

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Naomi runs some tests on Snake's body to examine his rapid-aging, and blatantly states that a norman man would not be standing by that point. Snake however, isn't just standing. He's globetrotting on secret missions, fighting against militia armies and killer robots all alone, saving the entire planet. It goes to show not just his will power, but also simply how tough his actual body is.

So again, let's say they're matched in will power. Solid Snake is still at a colossal advantage thanks to his durability/stamina, and will most definitely outlast the bat.

As for your statements about Batman's striking power vs Ocelot's, denting the armored hull of Outer Haven is indeed a lot more impressive than shattering bullet proof glass, yet Snake took nearly two dozen of those hits directly to the face without even drawing any blood. To put that into perspective, it's going to take Batman like, 100 punches to the head if he wants to actually KO the soldier. For a guy who relies entirely on hand to hand combat, that is a huge disadvantage.

Detective Mode is more than just infrared and radar.

It's definitely a very advanced vision mode, but as someone who's played all the Arkham games, it really doesn't have any way of locating Solid Snake.

It's been able to detect alcohol in the atmosphere long after the suspect has left the room. It has detected blood, so if Snake bleeds in this fight, tracking him will be simple.

The nanomachines inside Snake's body clot his bloodflow literally within seconds, and break down alcohol almost instantly according to Drebin.

It has some kind of advance sonar vision, capable of seeing through walls, seeing human skeletons and detecting heart rate.

That's just X-Ray.

It can trace fingerprints etc.

Snake wears gloves.

It can nullify the blinding effects of smoke pellets.

More X-Ray.

It can calculate trajectory.

This might come up if Snake tries to shoot Bruce and somehow misses... but the odds of that happening are slim to say the least. Snake doesn't miss.

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It can give the most in depth analytical review of Hush's victims.

That's because it's connected with the Batcomputer and can access Batman's databases. It's a testament to the system's technological advancement, but won't aid in tracking Solid Snake.

Moreover, it doesn't look like Snake uses the active camo unless under the impression that he is outmatched. Will he think he's outmatched with Batman?

Snake used it the second he was out of sight, he spent the rest of the cutscene just trying to get away (since going into camo-mode when he's right in front of the enemy wouldn't help). He's not cocky enough to try and engage Batman up-front unless it's his only option, so he will definitely go into stealth-mode as soon as the battle starts (it's kinda his thing after all)

I doubt Solid's camo suit has come across anything as advanced as Batman's detective vision.

Which brings me to my next point. You say that Batman's gear will help him get an edge over his opponent, but it's not like Snake isn't without his own gadgets.

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Otacon explains Snake's Solid Eye device, which can pretty much do everything you listed for Detective Mode, plus more. Now, you might think that this puts the two of them at even ground technological, but you need to account for the fact that the Solid Eye goes hand-in-hand with OctoCamo. Basically, Snake will be able to see Batman at all times, whereas Batman will not be able to see Snake through the OctoCamo. I don't need to explain how big of an advantage this is, since they both rely on stealth quite a lot. However once again, Snake comes in ahead on that topic. When Batman fights enemies using firearms, he needs stealth to beat them. Snake of course, uses firearms. And he's a heckuva lot more proficient with them than anyone else Batman has faced save for Deadshot... who again, Batman only beat by using stealth. If he can not use stealth here, then the match is already won, and all Snake needs is his Solid Eye and a rifle.

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You can see here that Old Snake was a skilled enough marksman to beat Vamp, a legit superhuman with speed to actually blitz a bullet timer, casually deflect automatic gunfire with a knife, and even run across water. Canonically, Snake killed him with a pistol. This is actually pretty similar to how a Batman vs Snake fight would go: a martial artist limited to close quarters fighting, attempts to close the gap with his speed and agility, but gets gunned down by the master marksman Solid Snake.

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Here Solid Snake beats another bullet timer by using guns, Olga Gurlukovich. Now she isn't quite as fast as Vamp, but Snake was majorly handicapped by his singleshot and highly inaccurate tranquilizer pistol, not to mention he had to dodge all her shots at the same time. Yet he still won.

That's two bullet timers Snake has shot. Both are definitely a lot faster than Batman, so he can probably shoot Batman too.

Skip to 4:20. Batman uses his disruptor to jam Mr Freeze's gun. Which I'd argue is more complex than a standard pistol. In fact, while Solid is trying to fire his weapon, that alone is enough time for Batman to move in.

Now, that's just completely out of context I'm afraid. Batman wasn't using any firearm jammer, the device he used was created by Mr. Freeze himself for the exact purpose of disabling his own blaster.

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22:12 - 23:10

A firearm is mechanical, not technological, so I'm pretty sure it'd actually be impossible to create a device that would jam one.

4. a microwave hallway when it was supposed to evaporate any living organism in seconds. Keyword - "Supposed". Was this actually proven in any other instance? Moreover, sonics and microwave ovens aren't even comparable in terms of effects. I'd still argue that sonics in a feasible tactic that can be used.

Well, it's a microwave. Those things are crazy.

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I know the effects are a lot different compared to sonics. I was just referencing it as a general endurance feat. If Snake can bare through that hallway, he can bare the effects of a sonic device long enough for his Solid Eye to pick up the source (which it would do automatically before Batman even throws it) and destroy it.

On that note, yet another advantage the Solid Eye has over Detective Mode is it's ability to scan and analyze the gear and weapons held by an enemy. Bruce has a lot of gadgets, but David won't be caught off guard by any of them. He just needs a few seconds to read the display (which won't take long for a guy with a 180 IQ)

Explosive Gel, Smoke Pellets, Sonics, Electical Charge, heck even Freeze Pellets that were able to incapacitate Clayface in Arkham City would suffice in helping bring down Snake. Batman's greatest assets here is his gadgets, which I'd say are enough to bring Snake down.

Like I said, Snake will be prepared for all this, not to mention he has his own counters to everything. Explosive gel? Grenades and C4 are both much more powerful, strategic, and can be used at range. Smoke pellets? Snake has smoke grenades and Solid Eye to see through anything. Electrical gun? A real gun is sure to hurt a lot more, and Solid Snake is packing an entire arsenal. Freeze pellets? Incendiary grenades would get ya right out. The only thing Snake can't directly match is sonics, but those are easily dispatched as I've been over. To be honest, the gear that Snake packs is not only much more powerful than Batman's, but probably more diverse. There goes Batman's number 1 advantage.

While that is fair, Batman has used the gun literally in close quarters against Mad Hatter's bodyguards.

If it does take Snake in close quarters, which is another feasible tactic, I have no doubt Solid can take it, but even still, Solid will be swinging around for enough time so Batman can lay into him.

Solid Snake is THE CQC expert. A style that literally revolves around using firearms in close quarters. Bruce isn't catching him off guard with his own trick!

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Regardless, here's another electricity-resistance feat for Snake, where he survives three shocks of his own Stun Knife as it's lodged inside his body. A single slash is enough to KO any SOP enhanced soldier, so it's definitely more powerful than Batman's stun gun. But Snake took the shocks when the knife was stabbed. That's indescribably worse than being slashed! And he took three of them! While getting punched in the face by his brother! As an old man!!! Suffice to say, a Solid Snake in his prime should not be overly affected by a blast from Batman's stun gun, should he get tagged.

At 5:00. Here we have Batman outmuscling his way out of Grundy's grasp. If you've ever had someone try to open your hand via thumb, you'd know that naturally you'd squeeze tighter. Same could be said for this particular feat..

That's true, but Batman was still using his entire body with perfect leverage to overpower just Grundy's one finger. And that version of Grundy wasn't even a 1 tonner, it was an effort for him to toss around those iron balls.

A similar feat that Snake has is getting Vamp into a chokehold.

But Vamp was at least a 10 tonner.

So Snake is still stronger.

In the tie-ins we have Batman hoist a car that's about to drive off, up into the air. Very impressive showing.

It looks to me like he hooked his grapple gun to the roof in the fourth scan and let it hoist the car alone.

And again, Deadshot has no reason what so ever to pull his shots. Heck in Arkham City, Deadshot was tasked to killing Batman. I really don't think Solid has faced anyone on Deadshot's level.

Revolver Ocelot did this.

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Didn't even touch Raiden's hand.

In fact, Batman has saved a victim from Deadshot, and although it looks kind of iffy because the game developers weren't cinematic experts until Origins, that feat is also impressive. (If you want that video, just holla. I don't want to video spam)

If you're referring to Jack Ryder, Batman already had him out of the way before Deadshot pulled the trigger.

Never heard of "Harley's Revenge" but by the sound of the title itself, I'd probably consider it PIS.

It was the DLC for Arkham City silly. I don't think it's PIS, Arkham Batman was never much of a bullet timer.

In the tie-ins Batman has also done the disappearing act multiple times. If you want more scans, I'll have to go back to scan them but here's one to get me started:

As has Snake.

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It's becoming pretty evident that whatever Batman can do, Solid Snake can do too.

In fact, I don't actually think I've seen Batman completely defeated in the games nor comic tie-ins.

What about Bane? You're the one who posted the clip!!

Batman has feats ranging from fighting fodder thugs, fodder Titan enhanced thugs, fodder guards, Hammer and Sickle, Killer Croc, Bane (who Batman has killed but brought him back to life with shock gauntlets), Poison Ivy, Grundy, fodder ninja assassins, just people ranging from all over the place.

Most of these characters weren't fought with just H2H. I'm not saying that beating Poison Ivy etc aren't very impressive showings of skill - just not raw H2H skill.

The real skill is fighting Shiva, Deathstroke, and Copperhead, in my opinion. Black Mask had a 50 million dollar bounty on Batman, I'd say he only hired the best in the business. We know Deadshot is, so I don't see how the others would shy away from being as skilled.

The best in the world go after Snake too. There's a reason he's known in the Black Ops world as "The Man Who Makes The Impossible, Possible." When there's no hope left and the world is already doomed, that's when you call in Solid Snake and tell him to go kill X to save everybody. And he'll do it too, of course. He's shown his expertise against Gurlukovich's army, the greatest mercenary task force in the world, Genome Soldiers, genetically enhanced peak humans and more highly trained than any other military unit in the world, and of course the PMCs of 2014 enhanced by the Sons of The Patriots system. In terms of canon fodder, I think Snake takes the cake. Gurlukovich>Thugs, Genomes>=League of Assassins, and FROGs>TITAN thugs.

Then of course there's FOXHOUND, Dead Cell, and the Beauty and the Beast Corp, all mythical units of super enhanced soldiers, all eradicated by Solid Snake... and sometimes Raiden.

Those guys serve mainly to show Snake's tactical skill and stealth. If you want raw CQC combat, then Solid Snake still has feats that surpass Batman's: Gray Fox, Ocelot, Liquid Snake, guys easily in Batman's league. I can talk about it all day. However, since I'm still aiming for the stealth-strategy, I won't bother. My basic plan goes like this:

  1. Snake starts shooting Batman.
  2. Batman smartly retreats.
  3. Both go into stealth mode.
  4. Solid Eye detects Batman no matter where he's hiding. Detective Mode struggles to locate Snake.
  5. David snipes Batman before he can react.
#24 Posted by MonsterStomp (25832 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto Hang on WWZ is on and has me hooked (I haven't seen it). Nice response. I'll reply in a bit.

#25 Edited by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@nickzambuto Hang on WWZ is on and has me hooked (I haven't seen it). Nice response. I'll reply in a bit.

No rush. I couldn't reply again tonight anyway :P

#26 Posted by MonsterStomp (25832 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto

I can't help but notice how you almost completely lowballed everything in my counter.

Ah but the thing is, Bane has only ever broken Batman's back when on Venom. So perhaps Batman's back was injured after that move, but by no means did Bane snap his spine. That said, an injured back is all it took to completely defeat Batman, who was unable to recover and could only whack at Bane's feet from his position on the floor.

Why you consider that a defeat is completely beyond me. Batman was momentarily stunned by Bane's breaking the bat move, at most. Other than that Batman was trying to get out of Bane's hold. I don't see how that's a defeat in your eyes. Batman was still fighting. The fight isn't over until someone stops fighting. If anything Batman beat Bane when he killed him, besides that, they have always stalemated.

Also, I don't know why we keep doubling back to will and the limits they'd go through. I put more spin on how much physical trauma Batman can endure, which evidently is more impressive then what Snake can dish out.

In regards to Ocelot dealing steel denting blows. How is that quantifiable? He did give Snake some sort of sedative so he can fight on even grounds, how far does that type of honour for him go? It makes his blows questionable to say the least. In regards to the "drawing no blood" argument, why are you so sure he didn't draw blood? That could be a cinematic mess up, Batman barely drew blood in his games.

Gear

Detective Mode

I think you're lowballing how advanced this tool is. You're limiting it to x ray (which btw I haven't even seen a counter to how that wouldn't work on Snake's camo). X Ray doesn't reach that level of range and although this is probably a more advanced version it still doesn't explain the soundwaves you get when people speak or when you throw a sonic batarang into the floor to lure enemies. There are so many other things interfering to just limit it to "X Ray". The cowl is probably influenced by a ton of other things.

Snake used it the second he was out of sight, he spent the rest of the cutscene just trying to get away (since going into camo-mode when he's right in front of the enemy wouldn't help). He's not cocky enough to try and engage Batman up-front unless it's his only option, so he will definitely go into stealth-mode as soon as the battle starts (it's kinda his thing after all)

If this is true, I don't think it'd work anyway. Considering Batman will have tabs on Snake where ever he is. So Snake getting away from Batman is one thing, blending with the environment is another, and I wouldn't even bank on Snake fleeing from Batman considering he'd probably appear around every corner Snake turns.

In regards to the jammer, I don't think its out of context at all. Sure THAT specific jammer was used for Mr Freeze's tech, but come the purchasable upgrades and Batman's updated version can jam normal guns as well as Mr Freeze's gun in his fight with Freeze, which can only work once. The only gun it failed on was Deadshot's (I've tried), who must have some sort of anti-jamming tech.

I'm not too worried about Snake's solid eye device to be honest. Not when Batman has Snake's firearms jammed.

On that note, yet another advantage the Solid Eye has over Detective Mode is it's ability to scan and analyze the gear and weapons held by an enemy. Bruce has a lot of gadgets, but David won't be caught off guard by any of them. He just needs a few seconds to read the display (which won't take long for a guy with a 180 IQ)

Batman can do this too, unfortunately Batman's gear is more advanced than standard c4, frags, AK's or something no other and his deduction feats are far superior than Snake's. So Batman would have Snake's gear figured out long before Snake has Batman's gear figured out.

Like I said, Snake will be prepared for all this.

Yeah because he has seen freeze pellets, explosive gel, sonics, and charge guns are right?

Not to mention he has his own counters to everything. Explosive gel? Grenades and C4 are both much more powerful, strategic, and can be used at range. Smoke pellets? Snake has smoke grenades and Solid Eye to see through anything. Electrical gun? A real gun is sure to hurt a lot more, and Solid Snake is packing an entire arsenal. Freeze pellets? Incendiary grenades would get ya right out. The only thing Snake can't directly match is sonics, but those are easily dispatched as I've been over. To be honest, the gear that Snake packs is not only much more powerful than Batman's, but probably more diverse. There goes Batman's number 1 advantage.

I'd agree that Snake packs more lethality, but other than that, its nothing Batman hasn't faced before. In comparison, Snake hasn't seen any of Batman's gear before. I chuckled at Snake's counter for freeze pellets though, Snake is going to intentionally set himself ablaze to negate the freezing effects?

Regardless, here's another electricity-resistance feat for Snake, where he survives three shocks of his own Stun Knife as it's lodged inside his body. A single slash is enough to KO any SOP enhanced soldier, so it's definitely more powerful than Batman's stun gun. But Snake took the shocks when the knife was stabbed. That's indescribably worse than being slashed! And he took three of them! While getting punched in the face by his brother! As an old man!!! Suffice to say, a Solid Snake in his prime should not be overly affected by a blast from Batman's stun gun, should he get tagged.

Impressive, but Batman's electrical stun gun has incapacitated Hammer long enough for Batman to make a run. Hammer has the durability to tank hits from Killer Croc without a drop of blood.

This too is enough charge to power elevators, open doors, etc. Doesn't change the fact that Snake isn't completely immune to the electrical effects. He's going to have a reflex or tightening of muscles or something.

Speed

It was the DLC for Arkham City silly. I don't think it's PIS, Arkham Batman was never much of a bullet timer.

Batman has reacted to bullets more times than not, I've shown plenty of instances of this.

Deflects bullets from Black Mask by the looks of it. This is at close range.
Dodges and deflects unexpected rubber bullets.
He's able to outpace fire from a chopper momentarily.

Add to that the other feats I've posted. Pretty much makes Harley's Revenge feat PIS (IMO). So even though Snake is a formidable shooter, he hasn't really replicated those feats in pitch black against someone like Batman. Keep in mind, I'm just saying that if Batman doesn't use his gun jammer device. (Which would work).

Even if Snake does happen to shoot Batman, his armour protects him well enough.

6 bullets without a scratch.

Strength

In regards to Snake's strength, I didn't see Vamp resisting that grapple move Snake did. So how exactly does that make him stronger than Batman.

In regards to Batman's car hoisting feat, that little black rectangle thing was the grappling gun? Doesn't look like it. Looks like something that Batman latched the cable on to but other than that I don't see much else on the roof that would give Batman a strength boost.

Close Quarter Combat

CQC isn't a martial arts style. It's just fighting in close proximity with an opponent using whatever you need to do to win. I've already shown Batman dodging a point blank range shot from Deadshot (assuming Batman's disarming device fails for some unknown reason). Batman is also well adept in CQC, I've shown the feat where Batman uses his Electrical Charge against Mad Hatter's foes. Bruce has fought ninja's while completely unarmed.

Owns a room full of trained ninja flawlessly in very little time. Batman also makes short work of thugs as stated in Arkham Asylum. Batman is just as formidable in CQC in my opinion. Except, Batman has an array of equipment he can use in close quarters, whereas Snake has the possibility of a gun.

  • Snake starts shooting Batman.

Batman either tanks, deflects or dodges.

  • Batman smartly retreats.

Maintaining tabs on Snake and visa versa.

  • Both go into stealth mode.

Meanwhile Batman analyses Snake's standard everyday gear and jams Snake's gun.

  • Solid Eye detects Batman no matter where he's hiding. Detective Mode struggles to locate Snake.

I'll play along (Even though I'm still convinced Batman's detective mode can spot Snake).

  • David snipes Batman before he can react.
  • David risks exposing himself to find out that Batman jammed his weapon.
  • Batman drops a sonic batarang giving him enough time to lace his gauntlets and boots with explosive gel.
  • Snake recovers, meanwhile Batman closes the gap.
  • Batman begins whaling into David with a force that drops Titans and busts through thick concrete walls.
  • David begins fighting back, impressing Batman.
  • Batman uses his charge gun to temporarily stun David.
  • Batman keeps whaling into Snake with forces enough to shatter bullet resistant glass.
  • David keeps coming back for more.
  • Batman begins utilizing more of his equipment such as freeze pellets to incapacitate him.
  • The fight comes down to whether Batman will eventually knock him out or will he have to resort to killing him and reviving him thereafter.

I say Batman takes a tough win 6/10 times.

The only advantage is David's questionable "steel denting" durability feat. Other than that, I'm not entirely convinced with your argument.

#27 Posted by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp

Why you consider that a defeat is completely beyond me. Batman was momentarily stunned by Bane's breaking the bat move, at most. Other than that Batman was trying to get out of Bane's hold. I don't see how that's a defeat in your eyes. Batman was still fighting. The fight isn't over until someone stops fighting. If anything Batman beat Bane when he killed him, besides that, they have always stalemated.

I really don't think I was lowballing. The "break the bat" move put Bruce into so much pain that he couldn't even get out from under Bane's foot, (which isn't exactly a full proof hold maneuver) and needed to rely on his shock gauntlets. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to deny it as an impressive durability feat. If you were up against anybody else, it'd be a solid argument. However, against Solid Snake, it really just is not up to par when the guy has tanked missiles and tank blasts and survived hits from 100 tonners. The most impressive thing though, is that his durability is consistent against street level characters.

For example, Deathstroke can tank hits from Superboy, yet get his bones broken by Batman. Snake on the other hand, can survive getting kicked by Metal Gear RAY, and then later on go unfazed by Liquid Ocelot pounding at his face. I think your "cinematic mess up" excuse for not drawing blood is kinda silly, we can't question how the canon cutscene went down. I seriously doubt Kojima just forgot to add in blood. The most you can claim is PIS, but even that is not so because it's consistent.

In regards to Ocelot dealing steel denting blows. How is that quantifiable? He did give Snake some sort of sedative so he can fight on even grounds, how far does that type of honour for him go? It makes his blows questionable to say the least.

Why would Ocelot hold back? He wanted an even fight with Snake, which is why he gave him the injection, but he didn't want to lose. That's like me claiming that since TITAN Joker didn't use his gun against Batman, that means he held back his punches.

Basically my point is this: Snake can take more damage than Batman before falling, which is definitely a big advantage.

Also, I don't know why we keep doubling back to will and the limits they'd go through. I put more spin on how much physical trauma Batman can endure, which evidently is more impressive then what Snake can dish out.

If we're talking Snake's strength vs Batman's durability, that is a no-contest advantage for the soldier. His striking strength is ridiculous, and has affected characters much more durable than Batman.

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I already posted the Cyborg Ninja clip, where Snake is able to injure Frank Jaeger through his steel/CNT exoskeleton that withstood being stomped on by a Metal Gear.

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Then there's Liquid Snake, Solid Snake's twin clone and legit genetic super human. Liquid's durability borders on a running gag; he begins by tanking a 500 foot freefall to Earth inside of a destroyed helicopter, which then exploded into a fireball so massive that Snake could see it all the way from the roof of the comm tower, and later on went unfazed by multiple Stinger Missiles going off right in his face, and immediately afterwards survived Metal Gear REX's explosion from inside it's cockpit. He goes on to fall off REX's head, a height which he had just moments ago deadpanned himself that he could not survive! ... but still survives anyway... and is fine enough to engage Meryl Silverburgh in a high speed jeep chase whilst taking multiple bullets to the chest, and on top of that, when his jeep is run off the road and violently flips through the air, he still crawls out, alive and well.

Now keep all that in mind, and factor in the fact that Solid Snake nearly beat him to death bare handed.

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Even his fight with Ocelot is a testament to his strength, where the C4-explosion tanking Russian ends the fight with a broken body and massive internal bleeding. Snake's strikes actually went so far as to damage the nanomachines inside Ocelot's body.

One of the more lulzy moments in the series is when Snake was imprisoned in Outer Heaven, he escaped by just punching the wall down. I don't think Batman is as durable as concrete, steel, or Liquid Snake's soldier gene enhanced skin.

I think you're lowballing how advanced this tool is. You're limiting it to x ray (which btw I haven't even seen a counter to how that wouldn't work on Snake's camo). X Ray doesn't reach that level of range and although this is probably a more advanced version it still doesn't explain the soundwaves you get when people speak or when you throw a sonic batarang into the floor to lure enemies. There are so many other things interfering to just limit it to "X Ray". The cowl is probably influenced by a ton of other things.

Well X-Ray is definitely a big part of it. It has a lot of functions, but unless you can name something specific that counters the OctoCamo, we can't assume it will work on Snake.

If this is true, I don't think it'd work anyway. Considering Batman will have tabs on Snake where ever he is. So Snake getting away from Batman is one thing, blending with the environment is another, and I wouldn't even bank on Snake fleeing from Batman considering he'd probably appear around every corner Snake turns.

That wouldn't be a good idea for Batman since he's the one on the defensive hear. He can't pursue Snake as strongly as you're implying because he can not stand up to Snake's firepower.

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"Attacking armed thugs head on is suicide."

Snake can elude Batman just as easily as Batman can elude Snake. The winner is determined by who finds the other first. With that, OctoCamo + Solid Eye > Body Armor + Detective Mode.

In regards to the jammer, I don't think its out of context at all. Sure THAT specific jammer was used for Mr Freeze's tech, but come the purchasable upgrades and Batman's updated version can jam normal guns as well as Mr Freeze's gun in his fight with Freeze, which can only work once. The only gun it failed on was Deadshot's (I've tried), who must have some sort of anti-jamming tech.

I'm not too worried about Snake's solid eye device to be honest. Not when Batman has Snake's firearms jammed.

Wouldn't that be considered gameplay mechanics though? Like I said, it's not really possible to remotely jam a firearm when they aren't electronic. And regardless, Batman needs to get within close range to lock onto his enemy's gun, and then it takes several seconds to charge. Snake would shoot him before his gun locks.

Batman can do this too, unfortunately Batman's gear is more advanced than standard c4, frags, AK's or something no other and his deduction feats are far superior than Snake's. So Batman would have Snake's gear figured out long before Snake has Batman's gear figured out.

The Solid Eye automatically scans the gear of whoever is in Snake's line of sight, and then displays all the info to Snake on a virtual HUD. It'll only take him a second to figure out what Batman is equipped with.

And don't underestimate Solid Snake's intelligence. He's not "the world's greatest detective", but was still able to deduce the ambush Liquid had planned for him in the elevator, the fact that Psycho Mantis was casting an illusion, and even masterminded a plot to gain access to Arsenal Gear right under Solidus' and Ocelot's noses.

Yeah because he has seen freeze pellets, explosive gel, sonics, and charge guns are right?

Yeah, right. Don't underestimate the craziness of the MGS Universe.

I'd agree that Snake packs more lethality, but other than that, its nothing Batman hasn't faced before. In comparison, Snake hasn't seen any of Batman's gear before.

What makes you think that? Snake has encountered some VERY advanced technology.

I chuckled at Snake's counter for freeze pellets though, Snake is going to intentionally set himself ablaze to negate the freezing effects?

Yes. It wouldn't be the first time. After Metal Gear D's explosion, Snake was set on fire and all his gear was reduced to ashes, but he himself remained fine.

Impressive, but Batman's electrical stun gun has incapacitated Hammer long enough for Batman to make a run. Hammer has the durability to tank hits from Killer Croc without a drop of blood.

Croc actually didn't land a single hit on Hammer during their entire fight, besides that little headbutt.

Doesn't change the fact that Snake isn't completely immune to the electrical effects. He's going to have a reflex or tightening of muscles or something.

Assuming he can't dodge it all together.

So even though Snake is a formidable shooter, he hasn't really replicated those feats in pitch black

Solid Eye has night vision.

against someone like Batman.

What about Vamp and Olga?

Batman has reacted to bullets more times than not, I've shown plenty of instances of this.

As have I, but I think Snake's showings (timing a ballistic knife, outracing Olga's fire, and outmaneuvering Revolver Ocelot, whereas Batman needed stealth to beat Deadshot) are superior. Most of the Batman scans are kind of iffy, to say the least. They're nothing to Vamp and Olga, both of who Snake has tagged.

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Vamp blitzes a group of trained SEALS and toys with their bullets, deflects automatic gunfire with his knife, and moves faster than a bullet timer Raiden can even perceive.

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Ninja Olga deflects a hailstorm of bullets (her suit is a disguise, it didn't enhance her like Frank's did)

Even if Snake does happen to shoot Batman, his armour protects him well enough.

6 bullets without a scratch.

He's visibly grimacing as the bullets hit, and then states that it hurt a lot. In game it only takes a short burst of gunfire to down him; considering the firepower Snake packs, he can definitely get threw the armor eventually.

In regards to Snake's strength, I didn't see Vamp resisting that grapple move Snake did.

He sure as hell didn't just let it happen.

So how exactly does that make him stronger than Batman.

I'm still not seeing any Batman strength feats besides Grundy's finger and the glass, both of which are impressive, but aren't up to par with Old Snake absorbing the recoil of a tank turret into his shoulder when firing the Rail Gun, as I showed in my first post.

CQC isn't a martial arts style. It's just fighting in close proximity with an opponent using whatever you need to do to win.

I don't know about real life, but in MGS, CQC is considered the single most effective fighting styles in the world. It's a collection of different techniques taken from multiple forms of martial arts and reworked to integrate gunplay. Naked Snake and The Boss created it together during the Cold War, and Solid Snake is currently considered THE master of the art, along with CQB and a couple other militaristic fighting styles.

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Bruce has fought ninja's while completely unarmed.

Like, four. :P

Owns a room full of trained ninja flawlessly in very little time. Batman also makes short work of thugs as stated in Arkham Asylum.

If I can be honest, most of Batman's feats seem to be against canon fodder. Even the assassins of Arkham Origins don't have many feats on their own to justify a level of skill equivalent to their comic counterparts. I think Solid Snake's opponents are definitely a little higher on the food chain than Batman's. He's beaten Vamp twice in H2H; Vamp, one of the best blade fighters in the world and master of multiple forms of ninjitsu such as shadow binding, and muscle reading, and was able to fight on even ground with Cyborg Raiden through sheer martial arts.

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Speaking of Raiden, here's Snake totally stomping him without effort.

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Raiden keep in mind, was a child soldier, and under the Sears Program was made to be the ultimate warrior. He slaughtered countless Arsenal Tengu with his H/F Blade, much in the same way that Batman takes on countless thugs. The only difference is, Arsenal Tengu are super soldiers equipped with enhanced power suits, whereas thugs are thugs.

Now, I'm not saying Snake will beat Batman as easily as he beat Raiden, but it's still a darn good feat that definitely affects the outcome of this debate.

Batman is just as formidable in CQC in my opinion. Except, Batman has an array of equipment he can use in close quarters, whereas Snake has the possibility of a gun.

What's your point? Snake can tank most of Batman's gadgets for awhile, but one bullet and it's over for Bruce. Seems like Snake has the advantage in that department.

The only advantage is David's questionable "steel denting" durability feat. Other than that, I'm not entirely convinced with your argument.

That single feat is Solid Snake's only advantage in this entire match? What about his genetic enhancements and superhuman soldier genes? What about the fact that he was trained and conditioned since birth to be the world's ultimate warrior? His strength feats are not only far more plentiful, but show more power even if we average everything out. I mean, Batman can punch through bullet proof glass in a few hits, but Solid Snake has reduced a Cyborg Ninja to it's knees. A Stinger Missile would absolutely demolish that glass pane, and if Liquid Snake is any indication, Solid Snake's fists pack more of a punch than said missiles. As for speed, that's a no contest, especially combat wise considering Snake has dropped a room full of soldiers before any of them knew what was happening, and was described as a human whirlwind by Gary McGolden in the passage below.

The island of Shadow Moses lies due north of Alaska's Fox Islands, deep in the Arctic Circle. Above one of its rocky cliffs stands a cabin normally used for meteorological surveys, and it was here that I found myself, seated on a chair with my hands bound behind my back and a burlap sack covering my entire head. A blizzard rages outside, and the cabin was a dark, silent patch somewhere inside the storm. I could sense at least four men around me.

They had been interrogating me for what felt like hours now. The burlap sack is pungent with the traces of coffee beans. In the biting cold of the cabin, images of Brazil come to me unbidden; alleys coiled through with vivid, untended profusion of flowers, children with skin like frothy chocolate, sunshine capable of burning out the cornea, erupting between palm fronds.

I can feel my sense starting to fail.

The man in the front of me asks for the second, or the hundredth, time. "I'm going to ask you again. What's in the optical disc?" "Told you, I don't know. I just found it, okay?"

"You're lying, you bastard!"

A fist explodes into the pit of my stomach, bringing up a peanut butter sandwich of many hours ago along with the rusty taste of blood. The relentless beating and numerous knife cuts of the past hour have my whole body screaming with pain, but I refuse to tell them what they wanted. I had too much invested at this point, too many days of dangerous investigation into the story of a lifetime. There was no way I was going to give it all up at this point.

"That's enough."

A voice spoke up from somewhere in the back of the cabin.

"We have the disk back. Just get rid of him so we can get out of this place."

Even in my current sorry state, I was still a journalist. He had said, "We have the disc back." That meant that my hosts were the original owners of that optical disc. The last piece of the puzzle was in it's place; I knew beyond a shadow of doubt that everything recorded on the disc was true, and that the conspiracy I had suspected did in fact exist.

At that moment, I heard a window shatter.

The raging storm outside seemed to gain entry to the cabin in an instant, and I heard thin screams from the captors that encircled my chair. The next second, they had already fallen heavily onto the floor.

The brief confusion ended before I regained enough presence of mind to even panic. Whoever was now here, whatever had happened, my tormentors were obviously out of commission. But now I could hear measured footsteps approaching across the floor.

Who was this human whirlwind? I was ready to lose my lunch from the curiosity and the terror. I could taste the peanut butter in my mouth, I could hear the enigma walk up to me, and lift the burlap sack off my head. I concentrated on the hammering of my heart for a moment, then slowly looked up.

There was nobody there.

I could see nothing, sense nothing. But someone was untying the ropes biting into my wrists. Invisible hands place themselves on either side of my head in a strange parody of a coronation. They deftly removed the bandanna I had earlier fashioned into a clumsy bandage for my bruised head; the faded piece of cloth was not my own, but a flotsam found on the beach. I reached for the unseen figure with my shaking hands, but with one quick flick of the bandanna, it was gone.

But there were more surprises to come. As I gingerly moved my stiff body, I felt an unfamiliar bulk against my chest, and discovered the precious optical disc, miraculously recovered. Not only that, but there were enough backup copies to fill me with awe and pop the stitches on my flimsy pocket.

I thought of my mysterious savior: possessed of superhuman fighting ability, invisible, and capable of burning discs in an instant. There was only one possible explanation.

He had to be an alien, probably the little gray kind.

Speed, skill, and stealth for Snake from "The Shocking Conspiracy Behind Shadow Moses."

Then there's the matter of endurance. You seem to agree that Batman will have a few issues putting Snake down, doubly so considering he isn't as strong as guys like Liquid and Ocelot. The "explosive gel on fist" tactic is a good idea, but Batman only tried it once, and that was at his most desperate moment. I think Snake's feats vs explosives prove that Bruce will break his arm doing that before he breaks Snake. And then there's Batman's other gadgets, which frankly, don't give him as much of an advantage as Snake's guns give him. Explosives, sonics, freeze pellets - all these things will bring David's endurance to it's absolute limit, but one gunshot is all it takes to kill Batman. Martial arts is the only debatable topic since Arkham Batman is basically more or less comic Batman, but considering all of Snake's other advantages by this point, I think "even skill" is more than enough to warrant a win.

And all that is assuming Snake fails to shoot Batman. The guy might be a bullet timer, but he's a very low level bullet timer, similar to the Arsenal Tengu who could deflect bullets to an extent. Snake killed entire leagues of them during his storming of Arsenal Gear.

#28 Posted by MonsterStomp (25832 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto

I'll make this quick and straight to the point. This maybe my last counter. I have a lot to do in the coming days.

Why would Ocelot hold back? He wanted an even fight with Snake, which is why he gave him the injection, but he didn't want to lose.

Sure he didn't want to lose. I just say they're questionable because he wanted to fight on even grounds. Plus the punches looked like they were probably getting progressively weaker. He looked rather tired out toward the end of that sequence. By the way, what does that injection do?

To be honest, I don't have a counter for Snake's offensive blows. They're impressive. Though Batman has taken his share of explosive force.

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1:52:40 - Joker blows up the TV set in close proximity of Batman. The explosion arguably has more damaging effects of a grenade. Moreover, Batman lacing his own boots and gloves with explosive gel (which can bust through thick concrete walls) is also an impressive feat on his behalf. Both are going to have to go all out but I'd concede that Snake has better offensive punch.

Gear

Well X-Ray is definitely a big part of it. It has a lot of functions, but unless you can name something specific that counters the OctoCamo, we can't assume it will work on Snake.

Well you still haven't countered X-Ray. I might suggest Snake's heart rate giving him away and his trajectory.

That wouldn't be a good idea for Batman since he's the one on the defensive hear. He can't pursue Snake as strongly as you're implying because he can not stand up to Snake's firepower.

You're implying Snake fires right off the bat in every fight he's in? Do you have more proof of this? I want to see how in character Snake is.

Wouldn't that be considered gameplay mechanics though? Like I said, it's not really possible to remotely jam a firearm when they aren't electronic. And regardless, Batman needs to get within close range to lock onto his enemy's gun, and then it takes several seconds to charge. Snake would shoot him before his gun locks.

Its a little hard to read but I was going by in-game description.

"Remotely disables enemy firearms without the enemy being aware that the gun they are carrying has become jammed."

Then it goes on to say;

"This gadget can also be used to disable TYGA sentry guns and temporarily disable TYGA machine guns."

I'd hardly bring in the possibilities of Batman's gear into the debate. You might as well question the entirety of his gear. Lol.

And don't underestimate Solid Snake's intelligence. He's not "the world's greatest detective", but was still able to deduce the ambush Liquid had planned for him in the elevator, the fact that Psycho Mantis was casting an illusion, and even masterminded a plot to gain access to Arsenal Gear right under Solidus' and Ocelot's noses.

Just because Snake can deduce an ambush (which Batman has also done on multiple occasions), doesn't make him an expert in observation. Batman has cracked several cases within a nights work (Yes, this includes side missions).

Yeah, right. Don't underestimate the craziness of the MGS Universe.

That doesn't say much. Half of Batman's gear was literally crafted on the field. Unless Snake has crossed something LIKELY, I'm not sure how he's figuring out Batman's gear until Bruce utilizes it.

Yes. It wouldn't be the first time. After Metal Gear D's explosion, Snake was set on fire and all his gear was reduced to ashes, but he himself remained fine.

He can take the burn, doesn't mean he'd alight himself on purpose just to negate a freezing effect. Was this feat performed in his prime? Just curious.

Assuming he can't dodge it all together.

I've already shown scans of Batman using it on Walrus with the gun virtually touching him with the gun.

In regards to Vamp and Olga. Have you any scans of them dodging unexpected fire? It seems the majority of their scans are of them dodging bullets that their expecting. Being a better shooter doesn't make the bullet any faster. Batman has timed bullets on a consistent basis. Expected or unexpected. Being a skilled and tactical shooter like Deadshot > Solid Snake's marksmanship feats (in my opinion).

He's visibly grimacing as the bullets hit, and then states that it hurt a lot. In game it only takes a short burst of gunfire to down him; considering the firepower Snake packs, he can definitely get threw the armor eventually.

He said it hurts, but he never exaggerated how much. In game, yeah it takes Batman out easy, but that's gameplay mechanics. You even put the argument up that he'd rather avoid frontal confrontation with armed foes, which contradicts that.

He sure as hell didn't just let it happen.

Well he sure as hell didn't show signs of struggle lol.

Hand to hand

I don't know about real life, but in MGS, CQC is considered the single most effective fighting styles in the world. It's a collection of different techniques taken from multiple forms of martial arts and reworked to integrate gunplay. Naked Snake and The Boss created it together during the Cold War, and Solid Snake is currently considered THE master of the art, along with CQB and a couple other militaristic fighting styles.

Well if that's MG lore, then fair enough. In real life, its just fighting in close proximity with the other opponent using anything around you to your advantage. Jason Bourne would acknowledge that XD. But fair enough.

If I can be honest, most of Batman's feats seem to be against canon fodder. Even the assassins of Arkham Origins don't have many feats on their own to justify a level of skill equivalent to their comic counterparts. I think Solid Snake's opponents are definitely a little higher on the food chain than Batman's. He's beaten Vamp twice in H2H; Vamp, one of the best blade fighters in the world and master of multiple forms of ninjitsu such as shadow binding, and muscle reading, and was able to fight on even ground with Cyborg Raiden through sheer martial arts.

I'm not going to lie, fighting fodder does hurt Batman here. But he takes them almost flawlessly. The LoA have proven to be rather strong (one being able to bust out of thick glass in the museum in Arkham City), rather agile and stealthy (following the blood trail), adept at ambush (shown when Batman is deciphering the robotic cameras, he is ambushed multiple times) and have shown to move with quick speed bursts. Batman takes four with little effort without his suit. In regards to Black Mask's hires, I'm just going off common sense. Deadshot has proven himself to be formidable and so has Bane. Shiva has commented on Batman's skill. I said it before, Batman doesn't have a lot of statements to go along with the skill he has showcased, but we can hardly ignore the feats he's performed. Batman has shown to be quite proficient in CQC himself and the sheer versatility he's faced shouldn't go unnoticed. In nearly everyone of Batman's boss battles, he's had to fight against more people such as additional thugs, Titans, Clayface soliders or is under the effects of hallucinates, poisons or seeing illusions. Batman has also faced armoured thugs and enhanced guards that nearly par Batman as well.

Notice that despite having similar physicals to Batman, not one soldier pulled the trigger on him.

What's your point? Snake can tank most of Batman's gadgets for awhile, but one bullet and it's over for Bruce. Seems like Snake has the advantage in that department.

I'm still iffy on if the gun will even work. Even if it does, Snake has to aim for the head. Body shots will cost him.

A Stinger Missile would absolutely demolish that glass pane, and if Liquid Snake is any indication, Solid Snake's fists pack more of a punch than said missiles.

So if Batman can severely crack bullet resistant glass in a single strike, he packs more force than a bullet? If explosive gel can pack similar force to a bit of c4 or dynamite to bust through thick walls, and can incapacitate a room full of guards, Batman with laced gauntlets can pack as much force as that?

As for speed, that's a no contest, especially combat wise considering Snake has dropped a room full of soldiers before any of them knew what was happening, and was described as a human whirlwind by Gary McGolden in the passage below.

Batman has also appeared all over the place in plenty of battles and has been described by both Joker's and Penguin's thugs as an uncontrollable animal, vicious, brutal, quick and efficient. He has disappeared in the blink of an eye etc. Its not like Batman couldn't react to him. I mean he looks rather slow in the cutscenes you've posted, but I shouldn't downplay that. It's not like Snake moves faster than bullets.

The "explosive gel on fist" tactic is a good idea, but Batman only tried it once, and that was at his most desperate moment.

He's done it a few times actually. Once on Joker, on TYGA guards with enhanced armour and on Titan enhanced foes. By the way, what's Snake's answer to tranquilizer's?

I think Snake's feats vs explosives prove that Bruce will break his arm doing that before he breaks Snake.

Batman can clearly withstand such forces.

Conclusion

Both combatants clearly have some advantages over the other, which makes the fight all the more interesting and entertaining. Snake's durability is better, while Batman's arsenal is better. Hand to hand combat is debatable. Batman has more versatility when it comes to CQC.

I'm not convinced David's camo can blanket itself from X-Ray let alone Batman being able to detect his heart rate. Batman's gear gives him a slight edge, and whilst I think Snake can take the punishment, I think it'll take a lot out of him. If tranqs work, Batman should win. So that's another counter on your behalf.

I'm done. I think I've covered pretty much everything Arkham Batman has to offer.

WILL - Arguably better. He has taken toxins, formulas, poisonous blood, and resisted them. He has had the life crushed out of him and has gotten back up to fight. He has fought through illusions and hallucinations. He has gotten back up from literally seeing his mother and father (Not sure how dead you have to be there but its still very impressive). And the dude is peak human.

STRENGTH - Debatable.

SPEED - Also debatable.

DURABILITY - I'd give the edge to David.

OFFENSIVE PUNCH - I'd give a slight edge to David here.

HAND TO HAND COMBAT - David is arguably better, I have to concede. Fighting near featless fodder does hurt Batman's argument.

GEAR - Batman clearly has the edge imo.

STEALTH - I believe no one here has the definitive edge.

#29 Edited by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: I've said all I needed to regarding a head on fight. Countering your post again would just be going around in circles. There's just a few things I want to go over real quick.

  1. I really hate to nitpick all your points like this, but the wall took almost all the force of the explosion in that clip you posted, Batman was shielded from the brunt of it.
  2. All the injection did was prevent them from succumbing to the seizures caused when Snake took SOP offline. I know you probably have no idea what that means (lol) but just keep in mind, any stamina increase would be minimal at best.
  3. Solid Snake isn't a superhero, he's a soldier. Of course he'll use his gun right off the bat, CQC is always a last resort when he has no other option.
  4. You're asking for feats of Vamp and Olga dodging bullets fired by surprise, but I should be asking you for the exact same thing! Like I said, almost all of the bullet timing feats you posted for Batman can be attributed to aim dodging. Deflecting a full clip of machine gun rounds with a tiny knife (or slightly-larger sword in Olga's case) at close range, and weaving through automatic fire just by spinning around, are feats well out of his league. I am sure that Snake can tag Batman.
  5. The gun jamming device still has too many variables to be a guaranteed successful strategy. Every gun in Metal Gear is equipped with nanomachine reading ID chips, so that only the person who owns the gun can fire it. I wouldn't be surprised if this interfered with Batman's device. There's also the matter of range and time; Bruce needs to get, like, right behind the guy for his gadget to take effect. A guy with senses as acute as Solid Snake, who can determine the exact model of a helicopter just by the sound of it's rotor blades in the distance, will surely detect Batman if he were to get so close.

Lastly, I think Snake has definite advantages in the areas of strength, speed, endurance, and stealth. Gear is a tossup; personally, I think the soldier has the advantage when all it takes is a SINGLE gunshot to end Batman. Sure Bruce has a lot of versatility, but most of that equipment is either non-applicable to this fight, or won't effect Snake nearly as much as a gunshot will effect Batman. The fact that utilizing and countering weaponry at close-range is literally Solid Snake's forte also helps.

In terms of will power, I really don't think Batman has any feats that can compare with Snake resisting Psycho Mantis's mental assaults. You say Bruce withstood enough fear toxin to "drive 10 men insane". Well, a mere 10 men isn't anything compared to an entire ARMY. Psycho Mantis was powerful enough to hold thousands of men under his command, all at once, yet was not powerful enough to affect Solid Snake.

Anyway, the real matter I want to discuss is speed. You said it's debatable who's faster; honestly I couldn't disagree more. Besides Snake's consistent bullet timing feats, which include stalemating Revolver Ocelot, a marksman of equal caliber to Deadshot whom Batman could NOT stalemate (he was forced to use stealth), Snake's combat speed is also insane, having fought on even ground with various Cyborg Ninjas, defeated Vamp arguably twice with just CQC, danced around Raiden, who keep in mind was fast enough to speedblitz a soldier from across the room before he could pull the trigger of his gun, and of course that excerpt from "The Shocking Conspiracy Behind Shadow Moses" speaks for itself. Batman's can't compare.

As for stealth, you likewise claimed that no one has an edge in that area, but to be honest, that might only be because I never bothered to go into that scenario. I really think Snake's stealth skill trumps Batman's, who's sneaking feats consist of surprising scared-out-of-their-mind thugs in dark rooms. However, even if we assume their sneakiness is equal, stealth depends entirely on situational awareness. My point is, whereas Snake can get the drop on Batman, I do not think Batman can get the drop on Snake.

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Here's the helicopter feat I mentioned before. Safe to say, Snake will probably hear Batman's footsteps. Can the same be said for Bruce? I don't think so.

Anyway to summarize, there's a reason Solid Snake is heralded as the man who makes the impossible, possible. In a world filled with mutants, monsters, cyborgs, psychics, mystics, and giant fighting robots, he is the one referred to as "the legendary soldier." A mere human, with nothing but his wits, and his skills. David should hold a firm edge over Bruce in just about every physical aspect. Batman does have body armor capable of resisting bullets, but the game makes it clear that the ballistics protection is separate from the blunt force protection. A few thugs with bats wailing on Batman is all it takes to defeat him, so basically, the armor won't serve to help the dark knight much.

Going hand in hand with Snake's physical might is his lethality. In his fight with Batman, Deathstroke mocked the detective for not taking his opportunities (there were multiple) to end the battle when he had the chance. The same does not apply to Snake. He will not hesitate to snap Batman's neck, or brutally strangle him.

In particular of Snake's lethality is his guns. Batman doesn't have a very good record against marksman. Ignoring the common thugs that can gun him down in an instant, he's also been tagged by Harley Quinn, Black Mask, and of course Deadshot. None of these characters have any of the skill or training of Solid Snake, not even Deadshot. Add in the fact that Snake can shoot in the midst of hand to hand combat, and I don't see Batman dodging.

#30 Posted by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by MonsterStomp (25832 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Go for it man. Sorry I got a ton of notifications. Your message must have gotten lost in the stampede.

#32 Posted by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio

In terms of the willpower comparison—MonsterStomp might as well hand Solid Snake a Green Power Ring for marriage proposal. Nickzambuto made it very clear that the will of a Snake is superior to a Bat, being able to resist the most powerful telepath on Earth. Batman in Arkham Asylum could hardly handle Scarecrow's fear gas.

Nick additionally established that Solid Snake is harder, better, faster, stronger. I've been convinced that Snake is just overall tougher, and perhaps superior even in stealth. What gave MonsterStomp's argument a major boo-boo was admitting to Batman's lack of noteworthy combat feats, fighting mostly fodder. It was proven that Snake is the master of CQC a couple other militaristic fighting styles, so he'd likely whoop Batman's butt. I also disliked that MonsterStomp brushed off Nick's point about Batman failing to dodge gunfire from Harley Quinn.

since Batman when caught off guard couldn't even dodge fire from Harley Quinn in "Harley's Revenge" and had to be rescued by Robin.

Never heard of "Harley's Revenge" but by the sound of the title itself, I'd probably consider it PIS.

☝This is rather lazy. Just because the DLC title involves Harley- he brushes it aside, hastily calls it PIS (without reason), and simply doesn't acknowledge the point. This leads me to believe Batman will NOT avoid Solid Snake's marksmanship, and will be taken down in a few shots. In the natural world, it seems the food chain favors the Snake over the Bat.

I vote for @Nickzambuto.

Sincerely,

#33 Edited by nickzambuto (19774 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Edited by Fetts (5215 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto@jokergeist

I also disliked that MonsterStomp brushed off Nick's point about Batman failing to dodge gunfire from Harley Quinn.

I think you're both silly seeing as Batman purposely dived into that shot to save the cop.

As for the debate itself, I'm kinda torn. Nick definitely had me in the beginning. I think he was making a solid argument that Snake is simply physically superior. But as he got towards the end, his counters became weaker. At the beginning Solid Snake was at one level, and then all of the sudden nick put him on a completely different level. He made statements that quite frankly seemed absurd (like Snake surviving hits from a 100 toner for example), that really needed actual proof. Furthermore, nick started to exaggerate again several times. Like that tranq ricocheting off something and getting a lucky hit on that bullet-timer (you'll notice how the tranq was twirling in the air instead of traveling in a linear path like a regular projectile from a gun would do), and that's somehow considered skill. And a couple of his counters weren't convincing really. Like how he said "Snake never misses" and then showed a video of him hitting Vamp in the head, but then immediately afterwards he was missing canon fodder guards.

Now, I know it seems like I'm laying down the law on nick with a lot of flaws in his argument. But I'm actually going to vote for nick. Reason being is that @monsterstomp didn't make these points that I would have called out on. He took much of what nick said for granted, and that cost him. He did make some points that I would have made. Like how just because OctoCamo was able to hide from the vision modes of the Gekkos doesn't mean it'd be able to hide from Batman's Detective Mode, which seems a lot superior in every way.

All in all, I give this to @nickzambuto simply because @monsterstomp took a lot of what nick said for granted.

#35 Posted by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump?