#1 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

Leon -

Blacktail

Riot Gun

Chicago Typewriter

Broken Butterfly

Flash Bangs

Frags

Tactical Vest

Combat Knife

Spike -

2 Custom Jericho 941's, four backup clips

3 Remote Detonators

3 Fragmentation Grenades

2 Throwing Knives

Thomson Center Contender with 6 bullets

Trench Coat

Fight here at 20 feet behind cover.

#2 Edited by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll kick us off, starting with some stat comparisons, battlefield overview, etc, keeping it simple.

First thing of note; the battlefield itself. I'm not sure where Spike stands in this regard, but Leon is known for his agility and reaction time, it's become almost a running gag. As such, a shipyard container field fits him perfectly.

There's literally a scene in Damnation of Leon parkouring over containers while fighting off a horde of Lickers, but the darn movie isn't online yet. Still, the above scene from Degeneration should be more than enough to prove without question: Leon has the mobility edge in a battlefield like this. There is no where he cannot reach, and though the same can be said for Spike, Leon will probably reach it faster.

Leon is the number 1 agent the entire U.S. Government has to offer, he's undergone a host of different training from different agencies, and he can be perfectly stealthy when he needs to be (again, displayed in Damnation)

As such, I'm thinking that, in combination with his extreme mobility, Leon might be able to elude Spike and get the drop on him. He's a confirmed bullet dodger (more on that later) and is fast enough to fight on even ground with Krauser, who moved almost faster than the eye can see. In terms of skill, again, referencing Krauser, Leon could fight on even ground with the super soldier in a close quarters knife battle, despite Krauser being a top tier Special Forces Member before joining Wesker, and being a multitonner with speed and endurance to match.

Physically, Krauser was strong enough to do

that. And as you can see, Leon physically held him back two times during that fight, Krauser only gaining leeway when he had the leverage advantage by being on top. Does that mean Leon is a multitonner too? Well... for now, we'll just say he has a couple other feats that might imply it...

Leon (and RE characters as a whole) are vastly underestimated and are easily peak human in all regards, and they can most definately hang with top tier street levelers. Considering a usual cannon fodder enemy for Leon is a 20-30 tonner immortal Mr. X Tyrant, who's fast enough to catch a Licker by it's head from behind (not easy to do when the critters weave through Machine Gun fire) I'd say the agent is pretty elite. Batman's cannon fodder is just random thugs in comparison (admittedly, Tyrants aren't neccesarily cannon fodder, but still, I'd REALLY like to see guys like Bats and Cap try to take them on)

#3 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Fist of all...you should watch Cowboy Bebop. It's easily in the top 10 best animes ever created.

Spike isn't a peak human, but he's definitely in the high athletic human regards. His biggest advantage is his endurance. Spike has a level of pain tolerance that even Frank Castle could respect.

Spike Spiegel Overview

Athletic Human - Spike is in the high athletic human, not peak, but physically fit, pretty strong, and pretty fast.

Enhanced Sight - Spike has one fake cybernetic eye, it is hinted that this may enhance his marksmanship, but never confirmed.

Expert Martial Artist - Spike is a master of Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee's martial arts style. He refers to his style as fluid, like water. He has proven on multiple occasions to be a formidable hand to hand combatant, and in close quarters combat, it's doubtful Leon will be able to defeat him to be completely honest.

Superb Marksman - Spike doesn't have excellent long ranged shots, seeing as he primarily uses a pistol. But his mid to short range is pretty spot on. Over and above this he's very accurate with his throwing knives.

Sleight of Hand - Spike is known for his sleight of hand. He is often seen putting something somewhere, or removing something from somewhere without anyone noticing.

Master Tactician - Spike isn't necessarily a "Master" in this regard, but he's pretty good. He was able to break into a crime syndicates head quarters and fight his way to the top with only sustaining a few gunshot wounds. And these guys weren't cannon fodder jobbers either, they were known for their immense skill and ability, and were quite feared as an organization.

Spike vs. Asimov

Asimov is high on a drug they call Bloody Eye. It enhances his perception to super human levels, and it seems to increase his strength and abilities to peak human levels.

This video has a lot of good feats for Spike. It shows off his sleight of hand, it shows off his martial arts style, and it shows off his ability to handle multiple opponents at once.

As you can see, Spike is about a bullet timer. What I mean by that, is he knows when to take cover, and he can usually take cover before the bullets are fired. He's not so fast that he's untaggable by a bullet, but he's pretty good at moving fast enough to get behind something before the bullets really start flying, and keeping ahead of somebodies aim.

Spike shoots Wen

Wen is a child in form, but realistically he's an immortal. I forget how old he is, but he's pretty much unkillable. Spike crafts a special bullet designed to kill him, and from a pretty decent distance, is able to shoot him dead center of his forehead. This is done with Spike's Contender, which is a pretty decent weapon as far as accurate is concerned, and is more suited for longer ranged attacks. Wen could have easily ended Spike, I have no doubts on that, and I won't debate that. But with his huberis, he though himself unkillable, and that Spike wouldn't be able to kill him. This is more of a feat for his distance shot than anything.

Jump to 3:30-4:15 - You can watch the rest, but it's hard to enjoy out of context.

Spike...don't call him Vicious

Spike is tracked down by a group of armed thugs, and he man handles them like nobodies business. This is pretty smart on his part. He knows he can't really outrun them forever, so he instead leads them into an alley way, where their numbers can be used against them. He then proceeds to beat the crap out of them...

This is an all around good feat for him, shows off his strength, martial arts, speed, reflexes, dodging ability, etc.

I've got more, but I'll wait for your response.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#4 Edited by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio
Fist of all...you should watch Cowboy Bebop. It's easily in the top 10 best animes ever created.

You already told me that :P

Wasn't convincing me to buy FF7 enough for you?! Now you're gonna make me watch Bebop as well?!

In all seriousness though, I have been giving it serious thought. It's only a handful of episodes after all, and a break from One Piece might do me good...

Athletic Human - Spike is in the high athletic human, not peak, but physically fit, pretty strong, and pretty fast.

He's at an immediate disadvantage in that case, going up against a guy who's physicals are closer to Batman/Daredevil. Ever since watching Damnation and playing RE6, I've gotten a newfound respect for Chris and Leon, in terms of battles at least.

He's the President's right hand man for a reason. Ganados and Zombies soak bullets, but a properly aimed Leon kick can make their heads explode. He seamlessly executes complex CC throws and counters into combat without breaking stride, and as Damnation displayed, his H2H skill is sufficient to singlehandedly kill a room full of 1 tonner Ganadoes while handcuffed.

Enhanced Sight - Spike has one fake cybernetic eye, it is hinted that this may enhance his marksmanship, but never confirmed.

Leon's a great marksman too, Darkside Chronicles makes it a point to stress how much he excelled both at acrobatics and marksmanship while still at the Police Academy. Chris is an award winning marksman, and Leon is his equal.

Expertly thrown knife straight into Salazar's hand from 100 yards without even aiming, then when the knife is thrown back at him at bullet speeds, he easily dodges.

Assuming Spike is just as good a marksman as Leon, the agent still has the advantage in a gunfight with his bullet dodging speed and reflexes.

Expert Martial Artist - Spike is a master of Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee's martial arts style. He refers to his style as fluid, like water. He has proven on multiple occasions to be a formidable hand to hand combatant, and in close quarters combat, it's doubtful Leon will be able to defeat him to be completely honest.

When was the last time Spike had a close quarters knife fight with a blitzing 5 tonner? Has Spike taken down a room full of superhuman monsters with nothing but a grass trimmer? Leon is not only superior physically, but he's also better trained. In a raw, H2H fight, I still give the edge to Kennedy. You said you still have more for Spike so it's not clear cut yet, but I haven't even scratched the surface for Leon ;)

Superb Marksman - Spike doesn't have excellent long ranged shots, seeing as he primarily uses a pistol. But his mid to short range is pretty spot on. Over and above this he's very accurate with his throwing knives.

Spike is a good shot no doubt, but a gunfight isn't decided by marksmanship alone (which, just for the record, I still thing Leon has). To put it simply: Leon is far better equipped in this scenario. He's an expert shot with a sniper rifle, but I purposely decided against including one of those in my gear because I didn't want a range advantage. But even still, the Blacktail, my weakest weapon, still packs more power than your strongest. The Broken Butterfly is basically a Handcannon, all the pain tolerance in the world, I doubt anyone is gonna fight through a single shot of one of those. Then I still have an Assault Shotgun, plus a Tommy Gun with infinite Ammo. My gear is specialized for long, mid, as well as close range, and it's all far more powerful than your guns.

Sleight of Hand - Spike is known for his sleight of hand. He is often seen putting something somewhere, or removing something from somewhere without anyone noticing.

Leon is known for his hair. That is more than enough distraction for him to hide something without you noticing.

Master Tactician - Spike isn't necessarily a "Master" in this regard, but he's pretty good. He was able to break into a crime syndicates head quarters and fight his way to the top with only sustaining a few gunshot wounds. And these guys weren't cannon fodder jobbers either, they were known for their immense skill and ability, and were quite feared as an organization.

I'm glad you brought this up. Leon is a top notch Special Forces Agent who excells at hand to hand combat, Firearm Accuracy, and on-set Battle Tactics. Leon is a genius, solving every contrived trap and puzzle the RPD Station had in a single night, whereas an entire Police Force had years to do it and never even realized they were there.

In terms of improv and strategy he's even better. Leon runs in with a Grenade Launcher, you expect him to have a big epic fight scene against the G-Monster, yes?

Mmm, nope, he just shoots the upper platform and crushes the monster in a completely anti-climactic showing of accuracy, and perfect timing.

Faced with a super fast enemy? Knock over Liquid Nitrogen canisters and freeze it! 50 foot tall giant about to stomp on you? Drop a giant boulder on it's head! Big Bug Dude just won't die no matter how much you shoot it? Trick him into absorbing a zombie impaled on a lightning rod, watch as the monster is struck by lightning!

Leon is a very clever fighter, conservation of ammo is vital in his job, and he makes sure every last bullet counts. You gotta think outside the box when fighting 30 tonner Super Monsters, and Leon is perfectly adept at that. Has Spike done anything else of note in terms of intelligence that directly translates to a fight?

This video has a lot of good feats for Spike. It shows off his sleight of hand, it shows off his martial arts style, and it shows off his ability to handle multiple opponents at once.

Leon can handle multiple enemies at once too, except the ones he fought were superhuman ;)

I'd post the scene, but the movie isn't online yet except for a few select scenes.

In any case, Leon has plenty of other skill showings, such as his precision laser dodging, climbing up El Gigante and Simmons (giants), both of which require extreme skill and timing. He's stalemated Chris Redfield, fought evenly with Krauser, had the advantage over Svetlana despite only wanting to subdue her and not fight, and humiliated Ada Wong.

NOT easy to do, considering Ada is one of the most highly trained, best regarded super spies in her world.

#5 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

In case you missed it.

#6 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

All 26 episodes of Cowboy Bebop online:

http://www.animefreak.tv/anime/cowboy-bebop

Unlike most anime, I recommend watching it with the dubs instead of subs.

No offense but many of those examples of tactics just seem like random instances of him luckily being around something that happens to be a key element in defeating his foes. Spike isn't generally rewarded with such luck, he has to rely on other means of defeating his opponents, wearing them out, seeking cover, avoiding them and ambushing them, etc. etc.

As for his 100 yard throw, that wasn't even 100 feet. That was 10-20 feet, max.

Spike's Sleight of Hand is a huge advantage here:

Useless? I think not. Spike has remote detonators, and frag grenades. If Leon pursues Spike he could quite easily meet his demise through the use of remote detonators that he doesn't even know are there. Or when Spike is laying heavy fire on him and he doesn't even kind of see the grenade Spike has kicked in his direction.

Spike's at no disadvantage physically. He can run pretty fast, he knows how to find cover, and he's more than just competent at hand to hand combat.

Spike vs. Mad Pierrot, Round 1

Jump to 2:30 for the fight

Spike has no prep here, this is sort of a random encounter. This guy has every advantage. He's bullet proof, he has a shield, he can fly, he has superhuman speed, strength, and he's almost completely incapable of being harmed. Plus he carries an arsenal of explosives and heavy weaponry.

Things to watch for: Spike is great at sleight of hand, and the art of misdirection. Notice how he draws Pierrot's attention one place and then comes out in another place. And again, he can't dodge gunfire all day, but he knows how to stay ahead of someone's aim to get cover, and can dodge for a little while. Also, notice the precision of his aim, and the distance he's at. 20 Feet is within his wheelhouse to be completely honest.

Spike holds his own, but this is a fight he couldn't win. Pierrot was just too much for someone to defeat in a random encounter. Bullet proof, flight, superhuman stats, actually competent in hand to hand, immense durability, shields, etc.

The Mad Pierrot, Round 2

Spike is a little more prepared and is seeking out the encounter this time. However, it's hard to prepare against someone with the home field advantage. Additionally, Spike is already pretty beat up from their original encounter (hence the bandages). He might not be peak human, but his evasion abilities are pretty impressive. Again, Spike is extremely well trained all around.

Spike can take a lot of punishment, and keep going. He is very dodgy, and hard to pin down. If you notice, almost all of his shots are dead accurate. And yes, at one point Mad Pierrot starts going haywire on a cat, but to be fair, he's using automatic gunfire, though against the cat, in Spike's general direction, and Spike manages to get out of the way. Spike wins, but it's not exactly by sheer superiority here. But to be fair, this guy would stomp around most RE villains all day :P.

Spike....not taking the situation very seriously...at all

This is a good feat of Spike's because of how obvious it is that he's not considering his life in danger AT ALL. It has a lot of good parkour feats for him, and a pretty good showing of his martial arts style. Again, he'll be serious against Leon, but this is just him having fun!

Spike explains Jeet Kune Do to someone (Roco)

To explain how Spike's martial arts style works, here is his own explanation (a parody of Bruce Lee's explanation)

Spike - Ballad of the Fallen Angels

My favorite all time episode, shows off Spike's abilities against extremely well trained henchmen. These guys aren't jobbers, and aren't fodder. They are trained gunman and are feared by all.

Jump to 3:00-4:00

WARNING!!!! DO NOT WATCH MORE THAN THAT IF YOU PLAN ON WATCHING THE SHOW!!! MAJOR SPOILERS!!!

It's the 5th episode out of 26, I recommend you watch the first five episodes, because this is the one that'll get you hooked.

Spike - Final Episode

Spike does a one man invasion against his former crime syndicate at their head quarters. Declaring all out war to hunt down a one man.

Watch the first 3 minutes

WARNING!!! DO NOT WATCH MORE THAN THAT IF YOU PLAN ON WATCHING THE SHOW!!! MAJOR SPOILERS!!!

Final Episode, seriously, it's a 26 episode show, and they are only 23 minutes per episode (including the credits, and the opening theme), you could watch the entire show in a couple days, and I'd recommend it.

Spike has a lot going for him in this fight. He might not be Leon's equal physically, but he's not trailing far behind. In hand to hand I'd give this to Spike any day of the week, his fighting style is too universal. In long range, Leon has the edge, but with this much cover, it'll come down to mid to short range. This is where Spike excels, and it'll only take one explosive, or a couple well placed bullets to take Leon down.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#7 Edited by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio
No offense but many of those examples of tactics just seem like random instances of him luckily being around something that happens to be a key element in defeating his foes.

And is luck not the single most desirable trait to have in any life or death encounter?

Leon's luck and ingenuity work side by side, allowing for quick, split-decision tactical thinking. He's a puzzle solver, analyzing and exploiting his opponents weaknesses, even when there is only one way to possibly win. Leon always keeps an eye on the environment, making the best of whatever he has offered to him, and edging out a victory every time. As Ada said, "Leon, ever the survivor."

This isn't the whole scene (it actually cuts off just before the most important part x_x) but it's enough to show Leon's incredible tactical skills. When attacked, Leon instantly on the spot thinks up a plan to utilize the Lickers to lure Mr. X across the city, and towards a gas tanker. Then, with superhuman accuracy (I REALLY wish the shot he makes was shown, as the distance pretty much trumps everything shown thus far) Leon lands three shots on the exposed gas, engulfing his immortal opponent in a blazing explosion.

The Tyrant is of course, left unfazed by the monumental explosion.

But as you can see, Leon's got it covered either way.

In terms of physicality and strategic ability, I don't think Spike has anything to counter what Leon does after this scene. Immediately as Mr. X falls, two more Tyrants come to take his place. Ammo and supplies exhausted, Leon can drag himself, along with Buddy's half dead corpse, around the city, outmaneuvering the two Tyrants for hours before help arrives. Mr. X is already proven to run faster than Leon, so the fact that the agent managed to survive until sunset while protecting another person is an incredible showing of athleticism and endurance, not to mention the ability to trick and out think his opponent.

Mr. X is fast enough to catch a Licker mid-leap by it's head from behind and B slap a Cerberous out of the air. Lickers weave through Machine Gun fire, so for Mr. X to do that, he'd have to be moving his hands at velocities exceeding bullet speeds. For Leon to dodge Mr. X's strikes (as he does above, as well as in an earlier fight scene) he'd have to be moving faster than that.

Leon has only dodged bullets once (more on that later). However, he doesn't need to, because his other speed feats are better than bullet dodging. Evading a knife thrown by the Verdugo above, as well as strikes from Mr. X, are both well above bullet speed. But besides that, Leon easily kept up with Krauser during both their fights; the boss fight showed that when his blood gets pumping, the agent pretty much sees the world in slow motion. A necessary ability, for what comes next.

People often mistake this for an agility showing, and though it is (a pretty good one at that) it's also something more.

For Leon to dodge those erratic moving lasers with such skill and precision, he'd need to instantly predict their trajectory (not easy to do when they move horizontally and vertically) then mentally plan out how to contort his body so as to just barely avoid contact. Then, to actually execute that plan in real time, is downright superhuman. Leon would need either ungodly reaction time, or a superhuman thought process to pull off a stunt like this.

For reference, Leon is displayed as the quick one, while Chris is the brutish one. Considering the brutish one can weave through Harrier Jet Machine Gun Fire, evade strikes from a weakened Albert Wesker, and not to mention do this,

Leon should be considered an X-Man with superhuman perception with the level he must be on.

Speed and reflexes go to Leon, by a wide margin, no question about it. Durability? When caught off guard, Leon just tanked Mr. X's 30-ton hyper combo move right to the face. He shrugs off point blank explosions, doesn't even notice falling onto his face from several stories up, and people have literally complained about how invincible he is in RE6.

Even when suffering through crippling pain as a result of the Plaga inside him, Leon can still think clearly enough to place a tracer on Ashley before she leaves.

Can Spike replicate those same feats? (Most notably the "30 ton hyper combo move")

And of course there is strength. Contrary to popular belief, Leon is very strong. Almost superhumanly so. We've already established that he's close to Krauser in that regard, who for all intents and purposes was about a 5 tonner. Does that make Leon a 5 tonner? Well, he's also physically overpowered a Rasklapanje despite being at a severe leverage disadvantage, has broken free from El Gigante's grip, held open a giant monster shark's mouth (VERY strong jaws), and never seemed to have much trouble bodily tossing Helena around in RE6.

Hell, Leon is almost as strong as Chris, which just being that is one of the best strength feats a guy can have.

Boulder aside, Chris can literally rip J'ava into apart with his bare hands, then murder them with their own dismembered limbs. He's shown capable of ripping through the Ogreman's skin and tearing out it's back spike, then impaling said spike on the beasts weak point, and considering Assault Rifle bullets bounce off the Ogreman's skin, ripping it apart like that is an incredible showing of power.

Now let's see how all that compares to Leon. We'll break down a few notable feats as scene from this brief altercation.

1) Chris attempts to whip out his pistol. Leon literally grabs his hand and force-holsters is (strength/skill)

2) Ducks under Chris's punch (speed)

3) Stops Chris's elbow strike dead, despite Chris using momentum to help fuel the attack (strength)

4) Tanks Chris's knee combo - the same combo Chris used to beat a dinosaur BOWs to death (durability)

5) Chris tackles Leon; Leon uses the attack to force Chris to his knees (strength/skill)

6) Breaks free from Chris's grip (strength)

7) Counters Chris's hold with his own (skill)

Wow, 7 noteworthy feats from a 20 second fight. Leon's a boss (Chris did his own fair share of impressive things during that fight, but we're not debating for him)

Speed - Check

Endurance - Check

And now strength - Check

Leon seems to be wracking up the points in the stats department - until you give some more insight on Spike at least. But I still have plenty more to say for Leon's physicality as well, so stay turned.

And again, he can't dodge gunfire all day, but he knows how to stay ahead of someone's aim to get cover, and can dodge for a little while.

To be fair, Pierrot couldn't even shoot a cat.

Spike holds his own, but this is a fight he couldn't win.

If I'm allowed to be blunt, Spike did as good as anyone could of in that situation, but the brief moments of CC between those two, Spike quite literally got dominated.

But to be fair, this guy would stomp around most RE villains all day :P.

I severaly disagree. He seems to posses none of the skill bolstered by Svetlana, none of the speed shown from the Verdugo, none of the strength displayed by Mr. X, and none of the intelligence from Saddler. Krauser, of course, possesses all these traits by himself, and look what happened to him.

Of course there's William Birkin, who is similar to Pierrot in that it was a fight Leon couldn't win. But then look what Leon did. He won. Booyah.

This is a good feat of Spike's because of how obvious it is that he's not considering his life in danger AT ALL.

Leon went through an entire game with that attitude, so no biggy :P

It has a lot of good parkour feats for him,

Not as good as Leon's.

In long range, Leon has the edge, but with this much cover, it'll come down to mid to short range. This is where Spike excels, and it'll only take one explosive, or a couple well placed bullets to take Leon down.

It's the exact same case for Spike, though. Leon's uncanny accuracy has gotten him through an entire City of the undead. Might not seem like much, but keep in mind - Raccoon City had a population of 200,000, about 9 people survived.

Another showing of Leon's accuracy, and another showing of his superhuman perception.

From the other side of the platform, Leon can hit Saddler in the dead center of his eye with an RPG; hardly the most accurate weapon, nor the fastest, as would be a problem when his target is moving so erratically.

#8 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Post an argument either at the end of the weekend or early next week. Kind of tired and it's hard to find Bebop videos that aren't the entire episode.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#9 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@nickzambuto:

Post an argument either at the end of the weekend or early next week. Kind of tired and it's hard to find Bebop videos that aren't the entire episode.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Go ahead and link the entire episode, just point out the specific time of whatever feat.

#10 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

Seems appropriate,

#11 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Alright, I should make a final rebuttal here.

It's been awhile since I've seen the show, and it's harder to google the fight scenes than I thought.

Spike vs. Vincent Round 1

Spike knows how to seek cover, and his fighting style uses his opponent's strength against them. As you can see, he unleashes a flurry of attacks in a moment's time. Vincent is strong enough to crush ribs with one hand though, and dig his hand through someone's skin and muscle. Spike SURVIVES this encounter, being thrown through glass, having his ribs broken, his muscles torn, and dropped from over a dozen meters into the water...his durability is dang near unmatchable. Oh, and he was shot through the chest.

Spike vs. Vincent Round 2

Shows off Spike's tolerance for pain, and his reaction time. Was able to to move his hand in position to shoot Vincent, and was able to shoot him before Vincent had a chance to hit the ground. Pretty impressive. I've already proven Vincent is clearly superhuman in terms of strength. Spike is still pretty beat up from his previous encounter, yet he still drags on like a champ. Plain and simply, Spike's tolerance for pain and ability to take punishment is amazing.

Spike Spiegel vs. Andy the Cowboy

Remarkably accurate, considering he doesn't really wanna kill the guy, he just hates him. Shows off his running speed, his balance, and some more durability. A bit of bullet dodging here as well.

Spike and Jet vs. Thugs

Shows off some more of Spike's martial arts, and his tactical awareness. Uses the headphones to catch his opponents offguard, as well as some of the items in the store. Then proceeds to stomp the crap out of them. A good showing is his ability to shoot a gun out of someone's hand from 5 meters away or so.

Realistically, what Spike has going for him here is the environment.

Leon may be great at hunting and fighting. But Spike knows how to set up an ambush, and knows how to predict his opponents.

In a melee fight, Spike has a bit of an edge in martial arts. Leon is strong, and competent. But he uses a very stiff fighting style, where Spike uses a fighting style that turns his opponents strength against them, which is something that doesn't bode well for Leon.

However, this will likely be a ranged fight. Long ranged weaponry is great, but in this environment it'll be short to medium range that wins the battle. Which is Spike's wheelhouse. Over and above this, I have remote detonators, meaning that if Leon follows Spike, he's likely to meet an explosive end. However, Leon can't rely on hiding in one area, because Spike can use his grenades to either damage him, or create a distraction to help him get the drop on Leon.

Leon's automatic weapons will be counter productive, because with cover they'll provide a lot of noise, and much ricochet. This will likely give Spike more than enough time to escape and change location.

Again, Leon could probably take Spike in a more open environment, but in this scenario, Spiegel has a lot of advantages.

Parkour goes to Leon, but Spike isn't a slouch in that department.

Long range weaponry goes to Leon, but in this environment with Long Range doesn't win the battle.

Pain Tolerance and ability to take punishment goes to Spike. Which is a mild advantage at best.

Explosives goes to Spike, and there's a huge advantage here. Frag Grenades and Remote Detonators give him a lot more options than automatic weapons and rifles to be completely honest.

Melee goes to Spike, again, the two are pretty close in reflexes, and agility. But combat speed goes to Spike and strength goes to Leon. However, Spike's fighting style uses his opponents strength against them, and with a stiff fighting style like Leon's against a fluid style like Spike's, Leon's fighting with a martial arts style that Spike's is designed to counter. Plus he uses much more kicks, which are much more devastating than a punch most of the time. And again, he's a lot faster in martial arts.

Short ranged and Medium range are about even here, both are dead accurate with their weapon of choice.

I think tactics go to Spike. With the equipment at hand, the use of explosives, the art of misdirection, the ability to tracks one's opponents (he is a professional bounty hunter, and a former crime syndicate tracker), and his ability to play against his opponent perceptions are going to be a huge benefit here.

Ready for voting.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#12 Edited by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't say Leon's fighting style is stiff at all. Ada Wong is an incredibly agile character, yet Leon pinned her in a single motion. Krauser was a bullet fast super soldier, but Leon kept him on his toes by keeping with momentum and staying nimble, using the superhuman strength of Krauser's attacks against him to gain greater distance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6In_iYopZIA

2:42 for an amazing showing of agility for Ada, how nimble and acrobatic she is.

She's unbelievably fast, but Leon still stomped her.

President Svetlana was the premier military instructor her country had to offer, making her one of the greatest combatants on the planet. Leon was easily keeping pace with her, despite the fact that he wasn't even trying to fight and only wanted to subdue her. If this was a serious life or death battle, Leon would most definitely be the ultimate winner.

I have to disagree when you say Spike has the edge in combat speed; considering Leon pretty much blitzed Ada and matched Krauser hit-for-hit, he should be the quicker combatant. When his blood really gets pumping, Leon pretty much sees the world in slow motion, as displayed at several points through RE4.

Strength, again, goes to Leon by a wide margin. Spike's best feats in that regard are throwing goons around and denting that steel pipe. Comparatively, Leon has physically overpowered BOWs, matched Chris Redfield, and wrestled against a giant shark's jaws. Going with that, durability is another thing that Leon has in spades I think. The G-Monster is a 20-30 tonner, and Leon took absolutely no damage from being slapped 30 yards away by it. Mr. X is just as if not stronger, and Leon walked off a haymaker recieved by him in his mutated form.

Chris beat a dinosaur to death with the knee combo he used against Leon, but the agent wasn't even stunned. Point blank explosions and a bullet being shot inches from his heart are both shrugged off, and his stamina is pretty much unlimited.

If this stays at a range, Spike is in even more trouble, as Leon specializes with guns. Headshots one after the other from long range with just a pistol, every bullet dead on the mark without even aiming.

Leon won't miss. Spike's only chance is to dodge. Same can be said for Leon, but I'm confident Leon will be better at it, securing his survival over the bounty hunter.

Strength - Leon by a lot. The dude is pretty much a multitonner in his own right, some might say he can't be because that's not peak human, but fact of the matter is - Leon isn't a Marvel of DC. If Capcom's idea of "peak human" is multitonner, so be it. Tien is technically peak human, does that mean we should discredit everything he's ever done just because Batman can't replicate it?

Speed - Spike is visibly quick and a good aim dodger, but Leon's superhuman perception and reaction time edge him out, not to mention he matches superhuman foes hit for hit. Leon's intense agility also factors into this, which I don't think Spike can match. The agent by a slim margin.

Endurance - I'm pretty sure Leon can take more hits, but in addition, he also has unlimited stamina, the Spain mission having lasted several days straight with little to no rest for Leon. Spike has good pain tolerance, but midway through RE2 Leon took a bullet and was just like "whatevs".

Accuracy - Again, I'm pretty sure Leon has the edge. Spike pulled off a lot of great distance shots, but Leon did the same. In addition, his targets (such as Salazar and Saddler) are constantly waving around, moving erratically rather than standing still.

Intelligence - Ada deadpans that Leon is a strategic genius, but Spike can probably think up a better strategy, so I'll admit he gets the edge here... until Resident Evil 7 at least ;)

Overall, Leon just has too many advantages. Far better firepower, not to mention the few bullets he doesn't dodge, he can tank with his tactical vest. "Space Bounty Hunter" will soon be added to Leon's kill list, which as of now includes zombies, mutants, hulking monsters, giants, cultists, and... fish. Big fish. Which he killed with just a harpoon. Yet another accuracy feat to add ;)

#13 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

Got us an epic match here!

#14 Posted by YoungJustice (6794 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for NickZ.

His final rebuttal took me over.

#15 Posted by Sherlock (7255 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Ill red through it though i would like to say you havnt responded to our match as far as I'm aware.You also spelt Spiegel wrong in the OP.Its got a P in it.The a isnt as big a deal and as Floopay has said you should check out the show its wicked good.Easily top ten action animes (I say action because i am in fact a sucker for a good drama)

#16 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sherlock said:

@nickzambuto: Ill red through it though i would like to say you havnt responded to our match as far as I'm aware.You also spelt Spiegel wrong in the OP.Its got a P in it.The a isnt as big a deal and as Floopay has said you should check out the show its wicked good.Easily top ten action animes (I say action because i am in fact a sucker for a good drama)

Ugh, I know I spelt his name wrong and I feel terrible for it lol. I remember once someone got Chris and Leon mixed up and I raged on them, so I give Floopay props for not even mentioning it lol.

If it's any consolation, I already watched the first two episodes and it seems pretty solid.

As for our match... no, I probably won't ever reply xD

I'm sorry, just burnt out on Snake after making that MASSIVE respect thread for him. If you're still on Link, we can make a new thread, vs Vamp, Gray Fox, or Wesker, I'm up for any.

#17 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

Almost forgot about you.

#18 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting for Floopay. He proven thru very impressive fight clips of Spike Martial arts and taking on Future Super humans with his own meager load out and superhuman (Punisher like) durability.

Leon has a slight Range Accuracy advantage but Spike unlike Leon fights nothing but competent Gunmen and knows how to use cover as well distractions and is a damn good shot himself.

#19 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

Voting for Floopay. He proven thru very impressive fight clips of Spike Martial arts and taking on Future Super humans with his own meager load out and superhuman (Punisher like) durability.

Leon has a slight Range Accuracy advantage but Spike unlike Leon fights nothing but competent Gunmen and knows how to use cover as well distractions and is a damn good shot himself.

#20 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

#21 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@nickzambuto:

Epic Grammar.

#22 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:


Got us an epic match here!

Vote dammit.

#23 Posted by God_Spawn (37710 posts) - - Show Bio

Floopay for reasons Cadence stated in a decent debate.

Moderator
#24 Edited by XImpossibruX (5171 posts) - - Show Bio

NickZ had the advantage here, with his 4 section debate vs Floopay's 3 he was able to put out more information and explain more evidence. Also I felt his argument was much better organized. He divides his sections into Strength, Speed, Endurance, Accuracy, Intelligence in his final argument which gives a clear summary on the key factors we address .

That being said Floopay argument brings out the evidence in the video's and scans he posts much better, as he even has the courtesy to include "Things to watch for:" and "Jump to" then explains the why and how of the video.

@YoungJustice said:

His final rebuttal took me over.

Agreed Nick not only started the argument, but ended it with a clear cut conclusion.

Voting for NickZ, definitely didn't like voting against Floopay though, no one deserved to lose this one.

#25 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

@XImpossibruX said:

NickZ had the advantage here, with his 4 section debate vs Floopay's 3 he was able to put out more information and explain more evidence. Also I felt his argument was much better organized. He divides his sections into Strength, Speed, Endurance, Accuracy, Intelligence in his final argument which gives a clear summary on the key factors we address .

That being said Floopay argument brings out the evidence in the video's and scans he posts much better, as he even has the courtesy to include "Things to watch for:" and "Jump to" then explains the why and how of the video.

@YoungJustice said:

His final rebuttal took me over.

Agreed Nick not only started the argument, but ended it with a clear cut conclusion.

Voting for NickZ, definitely didn't like voting against Floopay though, no one deserved to lose this one.

#26 Posted by jashro44 (20810 posts) - - Show Bio

I go with nick. All though this was tough.

Online
#27 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

3-2

#28 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

A mere TASTE of what is to come in our soon-to-be match. Read on and prepare... also, dropping a vote would be appreciated.

#29 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

A mere TASTE of what is to come in our soon-to-be match. Read on and prepare... also, dropping a vote would be appreciated.

Bwaargh, I've been two thirds of the way through for, like, a week. I'll vote soon.

#30 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto said:

A mere TASTE of what is to come in our soon-to-be match. Read on and prepare... also, dropping a vote would be appreciated.

Bwaargh, I've been two thirds of the way through for, like, a week. I'll vote soon.

*soon*

#31 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Okay, so here's how I see things. Leon wins this. Honestly, Spike gets shot in almost every single video, and Nick showed plenty of evidence to put Leon above most anyone Spike went up against. However, I feel like Floopay's was a more effective debate. Maybe it's because I've seen Nick's Leon spiel like 5 times, but I just didn't find his argument as compelling. So in a random encounter, Leon takes a majority. But as a debate? I have to edge this one to Floopay.

#32 Posted by nickzambuto (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto:

Okay, so here's how I see things. Leon wins this. Honestly, Spike gets shot in almost every single video, and Nick showed plenty of evidence to put Leon above most anyone Spike went up against. However, I feel like Floopay's was a more effective debate. Maybe it's because I've seen Nick's Leon spiel like 5 times, but I just didn't find his argument as compelling. So in a random encounter, Leon takes a majority. But as a debate? I have to edge this one to Floopay.

Admittedly my Leon arguments are often the same - but as of replaying RE4 I've been finding numerous miscellaneous feats left and right. Not gonna throw em all out at once though, once I pwn Storm Shadow I'll bring them out at a steady pace, always keeping everyone on their toes for another showing of Leon's great strength or athleticism...

Resident Evil 4 is such a good game. Like, really really solid, most solid game on the last gen even. I've literally completed it dozens upon dozens of times, so in my current playthrough whenever I stumble upon a new feat, I always slap myself for not remembering it when I needed it.