#1 Posted by ComicStooge (13357 posts) - - Show Bio
Represented by jwalser

VS

Represented by ComicStooge

RULES

-Combatants start 50 metres apart

- Morals off

- Standard gear for both

FIGHT TAKES PLACE

- In a generic city that both have basic knowledge of

- There is plenty of cars etc as cover

- No people are around

- Fight is in mid-day

#2 Edited by ComicStooge (13357 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll start off, if that's OK.

Firstly, while Captain America does have his handy shield, he isn't limited to it, unlike his 616 counterpart.

His standard gear includes grenades. These include standard frag grenades and smoke grenades:

And even what seems to be a tazer:

A well placed grenade or hit with a tazer could certainly turn the tide in his favour.

He's also not shy about using firearms:

Yeah, not shy one bit:

He can easily hold his own at range with DS, considering he can block the bullets coming his way with his shield then respond with a hail of gunfire:

However, as all know, Ult Cap's shield is his greatest asset is obviously his shield:

He's a pretty good shot with it too, in terms of rebounding it off objects:

He's sliced through a helicopter's blade with it:

And taken down many tons worth of steel cylinders by hitting the cable:

He's decapitated Assemble, a cyborg thing with the powers of Hulk, Thor, Cap himself, and Giant Man. Ice-Man and Rouge with Juggernaut's powers couldn't bring him down, yet Cap took him down in one shield swing:

But it's defensive qualities will probably serve him best in this fight. He can block any of Deathstroke's projectiles, his sword strikes etc and respond with a counter attack.

Anyway, I'm just outlining what 'standard equipment' means for Cap.

Anyway, your turn @jwalser3.

#3 Posted by jwalser3 (5148 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by Wolverine08 (43531 posts) - - Show Bio

Now this should be an awesome debate!

#5 Posted by jwalser3 (5148 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Alrighty! Let's get this show on the road! I'll start off by saying I am some knowledge on Ult. Captain America. I've read Ultimates, Ultimates 2, and Ultimate Captain America.

His standard gear includes grenades. These include standard frag grenades and smoke grenades:

And even what seems to be a tazer:

A well placed grenade or hit with a tazer could certainly turn the tide in his favour.

It's all very impressive. Grenades and such shouldn't damage Deathstroke's armor. Deathstroke's armor has tanked explosions before. A few hand grenades shouldn't be to problematic.

Survives a blast that levels a building

Smoke grenades won't be a problem either.

Not only does he tank another explosion, shoots two men in smoke.

Slade should be able to recover from the tazer, I'm not to worried about that.

He can easily hold his own at range with DS, considering he can block the bullets coming his way with his shield then respond with a hail of gunfire:

No doubt. The shield would be a great advantage in a fire fight situation. But like Caps shield, Slade's near bullet proof armor will come in handy again.

He's a pretty good shot with it too, in terms of rebounding it off objects:

If Cap was to bounce it off a car or wall Slade would be able to react and catch it.

Then ounce the shield is out of Cap's hands it will be an even quicker battle.

But it's defensive qualities will probably serve him best in this fight. He can block any of Deathstroke's projectiles, his sword strikes etc and respond with a counter attack

This is true, Deathstroke would be trying to get around it. But the shield only covers 1/3 of Cap's body. If he blocks his torso his head and legs are open for attack. Same with any other position. Deathstroke could easily stun him with a punch or kick. Hell, if Cap blocks a torso shot Slade could quickly pull out a pistol and end the fight there.

So yeah, Deathstroke can counter a majority of what Cap can throw at him. Your turn :P

#6 Edited by ComicStooge (13357 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3: Ugh, CV is being really weird whenever I try to post scans. I'll get back to you in a bit.

#7 Edited by jwalser3 (5148 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Posted by ComicStooge (13357 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@comicstooge: Alrighty! Let's get this show on the road! I'll start off by saying I am some knowledge on Ult. Captain America. I've read Ultimates, Ultimates 2, and Ultimate Captain America.

His standard gear includes grenades. These include standard frag grenades and smoke grenades:

And even what seems to be a tazer:

A well placed grenade or hit with a tazer could certainly turn the tide in his favour.

It's all very impressive. Grenades and such shouldn't damage Deathstroke's armor. Deathstroke's armor has tanked explosions before. A few hand grenades shouldn't be to problematic.

Survives a blast that levels a building

Smoke grenades won't be a problem either.

Not only does he tank another explosion, shoots two men in smoke.

Slade should be able to recover from the tazer, I'm not to worried about that.

Impressive, however, the grenades should succeed in knocking 'Stroke over at least, giving Cap a chance to lay down some offensive.

And Slade's armor is still penetrable:

@jwalser3 said:

If Cap was to bounce it off a car or wall Slade would be able to react and catch it.

Then ounce the shield is out of Cap's hands it will be an even quicker battle.

Luckily for Ult Cap, he doesn't throw his shield nearly as often as his 616 counterpart.

However, without it he's far from helpless.

As shown here, he dodges gunfire from an automated turret, only getting tagged once on the arm, which was more of a slight cut.

So, with a handy frag grenade to knock Slade over, Steve should stun him long enough to get shield back.

And once he realize the shield throw tactic won't work, he won't do it again. The guy is tactically brilliant and learns as fast as a computer:

@jwalser3 said:

But it's defensive qualities will probably serve him best in this fight. He can block any of Deathstroke's projectiles, his sword strikes etc and respond with a counter attack

This is true, Deathstroke would be trying to get around it. But the shield only covers 1/3 of Cap's body. If he blocks his torso his head and legs are open for attack. Same with any other position. Deathstroke could easily stun him with a punch or kick. Hell, if Cap blocks a torso shot Slade could quickly pull out a pistol and end the fight there.

So yeah, Deathstroke can counter a majority of what Cap can throw at him. Your turn :P

Well, on paper that sounds like a decent tactic, but in reality, I'm not so sure that would work.

For one thing, Cap can react to lightning:

He's done so more than once:

And has deflected shots from Hawkeye:

So if Deathstroke attempts to exploit an opening is Cap's defenses, Cap can react to it.

Even in terms of running speed, he clears 8 or 9 blocks in the time it tales the dust settle from War Machine's attack. This wouldn't have been any longer then 30 seconds at most:

And Cap's durability, while not quite up to scratch with Slade's due to his fancy armor, is still very impressive.

The force of Thor's hit sent him crashing into the side of a building, yet he was relatively fine:

He took quite a beating from Ultimate Hulk and wasn't even KO'd:

And wasn't KO'd when Abomination slammed into him:

He regularly falls from extreme heights and is fine:

Even against cutting damage, he took a slash from behind from Ult Creed and responded by smacking him around:

In short, Cap is fast enough to block whatever Slade attacks him with (given the fact he can easily deflect bullets and deflect lightning multiple times), durable enough to tank his hits and even a few of his cuts/slashes and his gear should at the very least serve to distract Wilson.

I've yet to talk about strength and striking power yet, but I'll get to that in my next response.

#9 Posted by jwalser3 (5148 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Oh boy.

Impressive, however, the grenades should succeed in knocking 'Stroke over at least, giving Cap a chance to lay down some offensive.

And Slade's armor is still penetrable:

I believe the grenades will knock him down, but it's nothing Slade couldn't quickly recover from. As for your scans...

Scans one and two, "there is an obvious reason why Tomo's uncle, and Tomo were able to pierce Slade's armor. Slade says so himself. He says that "it shouldn't be possible because he knows what his armor can withstand. It was a result of extreme accuracy and speed, combined with the knowledge of the armor."

For the third scan, his armor was pierced by a meta human that could lift a submarine and was with his own sword.

And as far I know a shield doesn't have the same cutting or piercing ability has a blade any way.

So, with a handy frag grenade to knock Slade over, Steve should stun him long enough to get shield back.

And once he realize the shield throw tactic won't work, he won't do it again. The guy is tactically brilliant and learns as fast as a computer:

A frag could stun him, but it's not going to daze him that badly were he is unable to react to Cap running towards him.

ALSO, not only does Deathstorke use people's weapons against one another, yes, he could use the shield to his advantage increasing his defenses. But Steve's defenses is cut in half! So something like this can be the result of the fight.

And those blocking feats are impressive. I don't have much to say about it. Only that the Hawkeye was is kind of pointless.

  1. They are darts. Darts < Bullets
  2. Hawkeye fired a dart gun, it's the same as if a S.H.I.E.L.D agent shot it.

The force of Thor's hit sent him crashing into the side of a building, yet he was relatively fine:

Something similar happened to DeathStroke. Also safe to say that wasn't Thor's best shot.

He took quite a beating from Ultimate Hulk and wasn't even KO'd:
And wasn't KO'd when Abomination slammed into him:

Took on a meta human that could lift a submarine.

He wasn't even KO'd
His kick sent him flying to said meta human

So I think it's safe to say the durability level is in Slade's favor.

Your turn baby gurl.

#10 Edited by ComicStooge (13357 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@comicstooge: Oh boy.

Impressive, however, the grenades should succeed in knocking 'Stroke over at least, giving Cap a chance to lay down some offensive.

And Slade's armor is still penetrable:

I believe the grenades will knock him down, but it's nothing Slade couldn't quickly recover from. As for your scans...

Scans one and two, "there is an obvious reason why Tomo's uncle, and Tomo were able to pierce Slade's armor. Slade says so himself. He says that "it shouldn't be possible because he knows what his armor can withstand. It was a result of extreme accuracy and speed, combined with the knowledge of the armor."

For the third scan, his armor was pierced by a meta human that could lift a submarine and was with his own sword.

And as far I know a shield doesn't have the same cutting or piercing ability has a blade any way.

Impressive.

Steve's shield worked well enough as a cutting tool to decapitate Assemble and he's slit Sabretooth's throat using it:

So it can indeed slice things. And true, while Cap doesn't have knowledge of the armor, multiple shield swipes to the neck or joint areas should break through it just fine, as Cap has the necessary accuracy, speed and strength to do so.

While Slade can recover and get up quickly, Cap's impressive running speed could still most certainly catch him off guard.

@jwalser3 said:

@comicstooge: Oh boy.

Impressive, however, the grenades should succeed in knocking 'Stroke over at least, giving Cap a chance to lay down some offensive.

And Slade's armor is still penetrable:

I believe the grenades will knock him down, but it's nothing Slade couldn't quickly recover from. As for your scans...

Scans one and two, "there is an obvious reason why Tomo's uncle, and Tomo were able to pierce Slade's armor. Slade says so himself. He says that "it shouldn't be possible because he knows what his armor can withstand. It was a result of extreme accuracy and speed, combined with the knowledge of the armor."

So, with a handy frag grenade to knock Slade over, Steve should stun him long enough to get shield back.

And once he realize the shield throw tactic won't work, he won't do it again. The guy is tactically brilliant and learns as fast as a computer:

A frag could stun him, but it's not going to daze him that badly were he is unable to react to Cap running towards him.

ALSO, not only does Deathstorke use people's weapons against one another, yes, he could use the shield to his advantage increasing his defenses. But Steve's defenses is cut in half! So something like this can be the result of the fight.

Steve isn't really all that prone to shield throwing, as shown in those scans of him reacting to lightning, he's more likely to simply block attacks with his shield, then respond by using his rifle. Either that, or closing the gap and going close quarters.

He doesn't use his shield throw in this fight:

But anyway, is DS tries to use Cap's shield, he'll more then likely get disarmed. Steve knows his shield inside and out. Every possible strike, every trajectory etc. Some guy picking it up (even if it is Slade) won't be nearly as effective with it.

And Steve's fast enough to avoid Slade, considering he can react to lighting and deflect bullets etc.

Steve can use something like a manhole cover as a substitute for the shield, as he was shown to do in his fight against the naked Hank Pym. Sure, it's not exactly his regular shield, but it'll do.

He could charge his tazer through the shield (assuming Slade obtains it) or Slade's sword (metal conducts electricity after all), which would indeed hurt him.

It stunned the Silver Searcher, who was bulletproof and could ram through asteroid belts. Imagine it conducting through the metal armor of a man who's less durable, like Slade:

This would allow him to get his shield back and continue, assuming Slade isn't totally incapacitated.

@jwalser3 said:

The force of Thor's hit sent him crashing into the side of a building, yet he was relatively fine:

Something similar happened to DeathStroke. Also safe to say that wasn't Thor's best shot.

He took quite a beating from Ultimate Hulk and wasn't even KO'd:

And wasn't KO'd when Abomination slammed into him:

Took on a meta human that could lift a submarine.

He wasn't even KO'd
His kick sent him flying to said meta human

So I think it's safe to say the durability level is in Slade's favor.

Your turn baby gurl.

Thor was actually pretty pissed off at the time, so it was a good strike from Thor.

And while I did agree DS had a durability edge, Cap isn't wet paper in comparison.

He took the full force of Nerd Hulk's fists landing right on his head:

While dressed as Black Panther, he took a beating from Juggernaut and wasn't KO'd:

He takes a beating from SHIELD's Captain Britain suited agents, while he was umped full of tranquilizer:

Captain Britain SHIELD agents are roughly as strong as the men in the Liberation suits. Tho of these Liberation suit guys could topple the Statue of Liberty:

One area I think Cap has the edge in is striking power:

He puts Hulk down long enough to attempt to use the Adamantium needle on him:

He's knocked over Giant Man:

Beat the stuffing out of Keiser:

And yet Keiser could take a beating from the Hulk for a decent period of time:

He's (yes, that's Cap dressed as BP) even hurt Ultimate Venom, despite the latter laughing of hits from Ultimate Spiderman and he's even tanked Ult Thor's lightning:

He's taken down Ultimate Juggernaut more then once:

He kicked Juggy through a wall and he wasn't seen again:

And he knocked Juggy out cold with a hit from his shield:

He used strategy to get War Machine in a position where he couldn't fight back, then physically owned him:

Speaking of strategy, Cap's a big fan of manipulating opponents into a location of his choosing, as shown against War Machine.

He did it against Hank Pym:

And against Vampire Hulk:

He could use his tactical skill and intelligence to lure Deathstroke to a situation of his choosing to get the edge.

Another area I think Rogers has the edge in, is raw physical strength.

Here he is lifting a whole lot of weight, just in a workout session:

He held up a massive tree without too much difficulty:

He's caught a punch from Valkerie, who can hold her own in a physical contest of locking weapons with Thor:

And he's matched Ultimate Spidey in a grappling/pushing contest:

When do you want to get voting?

#11 Posted by jwalser3 (5148 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

o it can indeed slice things. And true, while Cap doesn't have knowledge of the armor, multiple shield swipes to the neck or joint areas should break through it just fine, as Cap has the necessary accuracy, speed and strength to do so

Yes organic things. Slashing at his armor will prove to be foolish. Because slicing through skin isn't the same as slicing through armor.

Steve can use something like a manhole cover as a substitute for the shield, as he was shown to do in his fight against the naked Hank Pym. Sure, it's not exactly his regular shield, but it'll do.

He could charge his tazer through the shield (assuming Slade obtains it) or Slade's sword (metal conducts electricity after all), which would indeed hurt him.

I like the strategy. As for the man hole, it will not do :{

And he knocked Juggy out cold with a hit from his shield:

Yes. After being weakened from fighting the X-men.

I'm pretty much done. And if you want to start voting we can.

#12 Posted by darkbeam (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: @jwalser3: so are you guys voting are not.I really want to place my vote on this one, great debating guys.

#13 Posted by jwalser3 (5148 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkbeam: I guess. It seemed like Stooage was ready.

#14 Edited by Pope052 (3331 posts) - - Show Bio

This was a fantastic debate,

@comicstooge defended his points and countered his opponent's better than vice versa. While @jwalser3 put up a great debate, I feel that @comicstooge prevailed with his well formatted posts, and remarkable defense of his own points.

@comicstooge you have my vote.

#15 Posted by jwalser3 (5148 posts) - - Show Bio

Jwalser3 - 0

Comicstooage - 1

@pope052 I'm not mad, but I did counter the armor piercing issue and smoke grenade argument. :P

#16 Posted by darkbeam (2375 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Edited by Cable_Extreme (9599 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: @jwalser3:

Great debate guys, I felt like there was a lot more that could have been argued in favor of DS. As for the Debate, I felt that Comicstooge presented his case a little better. Both arguments were solid, however my vote tentatively goes to Comicstooge. Both well done though!!!

#18 Posted by jwalser3 (5148 posts) - - Show Bio

Jwalser3 - 1

Comicstooage - 2

#19 Edited by Pope052 (3331 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3:

Never said you didn't, but @comicstooge defended his points, and countered yours better in my opinion. That's nothing on you, you still did better than I ever could.

#20 Edited by ComicStooge (13357 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks for the votes, guys!

@jwalser3 even if I'm leading on by votes, you REALLY made me work for it.

#21 Posted by Iragexcudder (5115 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by jwalser3 (5148 posts) - - Show Bio

Jwalser3 - 1

Comicstooage - 3

@comicstooge thanks I appreciate it. Maybe next time you want to do a Witchblade(anime) vs ABC?

#23 Posted by ComicStooge (13357 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

Jwalser3 - 1

Comicstooage - 3

@comicstooge thanks I appreciate it. Maybe next time you want to do a Witchblade(anime) vs ABC?

Maybe. We'll see, dude.

#24 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

Free of any personal bias to Ult. Cap, I give this to @comicstooge

I think both of you came with solid arguments, and there was a nice back-and-forth there, but I think CS won many over with his final post where he made good use of scans, plus highlighting Ult. Cap's tendency to turn the battlefield to his advantage. So good showing there.

But nice work on both sides, if a little short.

#25 Posted by MonsterStomp (19195 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll give my vote to @jwalser3

I was actually siding with Ultimate Captain America when this thread first opened up. Both arguments were pretty evened out to be frank. I think both parties could have added more to the battle at hand, but I was able to follow the path you fella's were heading in. jwalser3 had a good first counter argument and I liked the idea he got to about Captain America not knowing about the nth metal armour. Just goes to show that the number of feats is invalid when there are so many other things factoring in the fight, and I could agree with jwalser3 more times than not.

Overall, nice debating guys!

#26 Posted by jwalser3 (5148 posts) - - Show Bio

Jwalser3 - 2

Comicstooage - 4

#27 Edited by SheenLantern (6787 posts) - - Show Bio
#28 Edited by ComicStooge (13357 posts) - - Show Bio

Jwalser3 - 3

Comicstooage - 4