It's a topic that has often been debated over the last 20 or 30 years, and it always provides for interesting debate. To my surprise (and knowledge) there has never been a CAV on this topic, so hopefully we can deliver on the issue. Remember to ask to be tagged! The battle of the high end street level prep masters is underway...
Rules
- Post-Flashpoint (since the 'New-52' is gone, I'm pretty sure post-FP is the proper thing to say) feats only for Batman.
- Watchmen novel and Before Watchmen series feats only for Ozymandias.
- Standard gear and suit for Batman and Ozymandias.
- Each have basic knowledge of each other, and get ONE hour of prep.
- Win by incapacitation/KO/death.
- Morals on.
- In character.
- Characters start at opposite ends of the room.
Location
Building is lit enough so that both characters can see the entire room.
Adrein Veidt is the world's smartest man, and a founding member of the Watchmen. Following the outbreak and masked heroes, Adrien took up the cowl of 'Ozymandias'. Adrien is a world class gymnast and martial artist, and he quickly became the Watchmen's second most powerful team member. After revealing his identity, he used it as a business opportunity and built a multi-million dollar corporation off his own name. He then decided to live a noble life, but that was of course not the reality of his intentions.
Abilities
- World class gymnast.
- Master martial artist.
- Genius level intellect.
- Brilliant strategist and planner.
- Super human reaction speed.
Acrobatics/Reaction Speed
Gallery
Here are a few displays of Ozy's tremendous athletic ability.
- In the first two scans, you can see a broadcast of Adrien performing an acrobat routine for a charity event. Adrien claims he is rusty during the demonstration, and the announcer goes on to say it is one of the most impressive things he has ever seen. Adrien's acrobat career and skill are also referenced many times throughout the novel.
- The third scan is from Before Watchmen: Ozymandias and shows Adrien balancing on a stack of three small balls with one finger. he then holds perfect balance as the ball at the bottom of the stack is blown out of the tower. Just thinking about how difficult that would be is very impressive.
- The final scan (half of one. Sorry, the site I'm getting these from is weird) shows Ozy climbing a glass building. No harness, no suction cups, no nothing. He is just climbing the building like Spider-Man.
Reaction Speed
Gallery
This is the only feat I need to explain this.
- Adrien has super human reaction speed, which gives him a huge advantage over almost any opponent.
- Spectre shoots Adrien from about 2 feet away with almost no warning. The average bullet travels at about 2500 feet/second. You do the math. That's insanely fast reaction time. Not to mention the fact that dodging a bullet is one thing, but maintaining a high level of focus and concentration to be able to snatch the bullet out of the air in the short period of time.
Fighting Ability
Adrien is an incredibly skilled martial artist, and considered to be the best fighter in the Watchmen universe.
Gallery
- In the first panel, you can see Adrien's pure strength. He shatters a boulder by punching it.
The next few scans are probably Ozy's closest fight to Batman. His fight against a peak Comedian from Before Watchmen. (Because Comedian is pretty similar to Batman in size, build, strength, etc.)
- In the first scan, you can see a weapon that not many people know that Ozy has. They are twin stiletto blades that are hidden in his gauntlets. They can be used as hidden blades (like Assassin's Creed) or he can throw them as darts. You can see his accuracy here as he throws one of the blades down the bullet shaft of Comedians gun from 10 feet away. He also was able to do that because he has incredible observation skills. While talking to Blake, he paid attention to all of his slight movements, and threw the stiletto in the exact moment that Comedian was pulling the trigger.
- In the following panels, you can see their fight progress, and it appears as though they are easily matched. And in a panel that I couldn't seem to locate, it seems as though the Comedian actually beats Ozy. But, in the last panel, you can see that Ozy actually held back and let the Comedian win. A move of great restraint demonstrated by Ozy in order to gain further knowledge of his opponent.
Intellect and Strategy
Ozy has a genius level intellect, and is a brilliant strategist.
- In this scan, you can see the pinnacle of his brilliance. In the Watchmen universe, Jon is omnipotent in theory. There is no limit to what is possible for him, and he is also semi-omnipresent, and able to view time as a plane of existence. What that means, is that Jon sees the past, present, and future all at once.
- Adrien was able to develop a tachyon device to beam particles into the time stream. With this, Jon was unable to see the future clearly, and thus kept Adrien's actions out of his vision. Thus, incapacitating the most powerful man in the universe from preventing his plot from taking place.
Now, this was obviously planned out after sometime, but this is also an extremely impressive feat, because Adrien was able to fend off a cosmic level being, when he is only a man. Adrien would be able to set traps and prepare for humans on a much quicker deadline. I mean, let's be honest. He did it 35 minutes ago.
Prep
As stated in the OP, Ozy gets basic knowledge, and an hour of prep before fighting Batman. Now, let's assume that Ozy only knows that Batman is a skilled vigilante that uses gadgets. Ozy will have to be quick with his plans, but he is a prep master. Again, he was able to incapacitate Jon with enough prep. Adrien could use his prep time to study his opponent, similar to what he did while fighting Comedian in BW, or he could use it to survey the room and figure out the best way to strike and take out Mr. Wayne.
Speaking of Mr. Wayne, I think it's likely that Ozy could figure out that Batman is Bruce Wayne in an hour with his high level intellect. Jon has even admitted that he is the smartest man on Earth, and Adrien also has a multi-million dollar empire with resources to research people around the world. Therefore, if Ozy were able to figure out Bruce's identity, he could hold him hostage with that knowledge, or threaten his loved ones. That might not be very relevant, but whatever.
And reverting back to his resources, Adrien is also a brilliant inventor and engineer, and he might be able to create some gadgets or weapons of his own to aid in his fight against the Dark Knight.
Primary Points
These are the points I'll try to argue most for throughout this CaV:
- Ozymandias is more intelligent than Batman, and has better observation skills and instincts WHILE IN COMBAT.
- Ozy is a master martial artist and fighter, similar to batman, and Batman will not be able to overpower him.
- Ozy has superhuman reaction speed, and that will be extremely important, especially when Batman uses gadgets such as batarangs
It is my honor and priviledge to take part in this CaV, representing one of the All-Time greats and personal favorites.
If you don't mind, I will begin addressing several of the points stated in your first post to get the ball rolling.
I promise to do the character and his lore justice in the same way he has inspired me through the years.
As promised, I will limit myself to New 52 appearances ONLY, which is to be honest more than enough for our dance.
Presenting
The Bat-Man
Brief Introduction
Batman is the World's Greatest Detective and current chief strategist for the Justice League. Losing his parents at an early age, spiraled his life down the rabbit hole of insanity to which he fights day and night to give a sense of reason in a mad world and above all bring Justice to all form of evil. Beginning his training from an early age, he has become immensely proficient in detective work and in martial arts. Using his vast resources to transform himself into one of the greatest heroes the Earth Prime has to offer. Decades of immersive training he has built himself into a legend. His cunning and skill in combat has allowed him to survive and even win against top of the food chain bloodlusted metahumans such as Wonder Woman and Superman himself.
Gallery
His sole purpose in life is to work from the shadows in order to serve others and the greater good.
Basic Skill Set
Martial Arts Master
Genius Level Intellect
Master Strategist
Top of the Line Gadgetry
Escape Artist
Master of Stealth
Swift Improvisation
Reaction and Speed in Combat
Note: I will not address your acrobatics sections since they do not pertain very much against to an actual fight. Surely Batman is not going to stand there and watch Ozy spin balls on his finger.
Reaction Speed
Gallery
This is the only feat I need to explain this.
- Adrien has super human reaction speed, which gives him a huge advantage over almost any opponent.
- Spectre shoots Adrien from about 2 feet away with almost no warning. The average bullet travels at about 2500 feet/second. You do the math. That's insanely fast reaction time. Not to mention the fact that dodging a bullet is one thing, but maintaining a high level of focus and concentration to be able to snatch the bullet out of the air in the short period of time.
Why it isn't that impressive...
We can clearly see in the opening panels of the first scan that, Ozzy was well aware where the muzzle of the pistol was aiming at.
This isn't even a reaction feat, it's a solid trajectory predicting feat, which by all accounts and purposes would not give use the inclination to state that he has super human reflexes. By real world standards,that is impressive. But by comic book/street leveler standards? This is just run of the mil.
Batman has done the same and better while going up against a main villain with a high caliber machine gun.
He accurately predicted where the shots would land and defended himself in a far more impressive manner.
No scratch on him.
Batman has made a career of making guns look like play toys against him.
I can sit here and pour scans
upon scans
from different story arcs and by different writers that show more than competent shooters, flat out miss Batman completely despite the fact that he is 4-7 feet away from them and quickly approaching them. This is a hat tip to Batman's ability to react to multiple fire arms.
IN the last scan he was being attacked by different assailants. Despite the fact that his back was turned and he was putting a pounding on one of them, he was still able to react to the enemy behind him and quite literally dance around his bullets.
And stomp the machine gunner.
Reacting to somebody pulling the trigger on him?
He's got it.
In fact he reacted so fast that he was able to bring down the whole shotgun's aim at an almost 90 degree to the ground just in time to have the attacker shoot himself.
Martial Arts Skill
Batman is practically unrivaled in the DC Universe when it comes to this facet.
No offense to Mr. Veidt, he is a big fish in a small pond. Watchmen-verse<Dc Verse in sheer scope.
Rather than to post a gallery of his competence, I will instead include what I believe to be the most relevant scans that would come into play in a fight between these two.
I would have to disagree. Veidt has never encountered anyone like Batman in hand to hand combat.
Batman is 6'2 and approximately 210. It is very clear here that he holds the size advantage and I will reveal as to why now.
Looking at your scans, it's clear to see that the Comedian was actually able to overpower Ozy to an extent.
Despite the fact that Ozy was able to secure a headlock and initially took him to the ground, both attempts were easily thwarted by the Comedian using simple applications of force. The Comedian by all intents and purposes is leagues below Batman in combat.
Why is that important? Because Batman is not only a swift and evasive opponent go up against. He is also a powerhouse.
This version of Batman has not been timid in abusing his judo and strength to flat out floor opponents even under the precarious conditions of a headlock.
Gallery
It is safe to say that in a hand to hand situation Batman would hold the definite edge and Ozy would probably end up...
Getting ragdolled.
Prep Time
Second to none.
There is a reason he is jokingly referred to as the BatGod. Memes such as "Batman wins with prep." actually have very real foundations.
He has the ability to reinvent the wheel. His one and true super power is how he prepares.
For example, when he went up against Clayface, he had much less time than an hour to formulate a plan that involved chemistry, detective work and strategy.
In the scan above, he uncovered Pamela Isley's plot, her love manipulation with Clayface, identified the cause for Clayface's possession via further understanding of Clayface's genetic makeup, engineer an outfit for the occasion and create a concoction that almost literally oneshotted Clayface back into reality. On top of this he was able to psychologically dissect Clayface and verbally beat him down into running all with much less than an hour of prep time that is allowed here. The possibilities are near endlesss as to what he can come up with for Ozy in an hour.
*more on this later
To make matters worse for Ozy, Batman has the most high-end of high-end resources available to him. This includes the Batcomputer.
With files and records on just about anything in the world. It is very likely that Batman will have the Batcomputer running loops on references about anything that refers to Ozy and his resources. If I am not mistaken Ozy went public with his identity so that will make it even easier for the Batcomputer to feed even more knowledge to his preparation time in seeking weaknesses he WILL exploit.
I am still baffled as to why you would choose that as the "battleground". That's practically Batman's wetdream. But hey, you could surprise me.
@crushyourenemies: Nice rebuttal mate. Let's see what I've got in return...
Why it isn't that impressive...
We can clearly see in the opening panels of the first scan that, Ozzy was well aware where the muzzle of the pistol was aiming at.
This isn't even a reaction feat, it's a solid trajectory predicting feat, which by all accounts and purposes would not give use the inclination to state that he has super human reflexes. By real world standards,that is impressive. But by comic book/street leveler standards? This is just run of the mil.
Batman has done the same and better while going up against a main villain with a high caliber machine gun.
He accurately predicted where the shots would land and defended himself in a far more impressive manner.
How dare you insult the greatest reaction feat in street level history! :o JK...
I wouldn't say that Ozy had much time at all to see where the pistol was aimed... She calls his name and shoots while he is still in the process of turning around.
It's definitely a reaction feat... and much more impressive than run of the mil. The pistol was fired before Ozy was able to even fully turn around, and then he caught the bullet. As stated earlier, bullets move at about 2500 ft/second, and Ozy was probably around 2 feet away. Ozy had to react to something that was moving that fast before he even had enough time to see what was coming at him. But not only does he have time to react to it, he has time to catch it. That requires even more speed, and incredible concentration and perception. Batman has several bullet dodging feats, but that does not equal the same reaction time as Ozy does in that panel.
I'll tackle a pair of those bullet timing scans you laid on me.
Gallery
- In this first scan, we can see something that Batman does on the regular when dealing with fodder enemies. He is able to use his cape to increase his size and strike fear into the eyes of his enemies. They then freak out, and tend to shoot blindly, very often hitting nothing but the cape.
- In the second scan, Batman is simply shielding himself from machine gun fire with his bullet proof gauntlets. It is still a solid reaction feat, but again, he didn't have to be as fast as Ozy, and he is at least faced with his opponent unlike Veidt, who was snuck up on.
In fact he reacted so fast that he was able to bring down the whole shotgun's aim at an almost 90 degree to the ground just in time to have the attacker shoot himself.
Again, I wouldn't say that is as fast as Ozy throwing a dart down Comedians barrel from ten feet away while he is already in the process of pulling the trigger.
Batman is practically unrivaled in the DC Universe when it comes to this facet.
No offense to Mr. Veidt, he is a big fish in a small pond. Watchmen-verse<Dc Verse in sheer scope.
Rather than to post a gallery of his competence, I will instead include what I believe to be the most relevant scans that would come into play in a fight between these two.
I would have to disagree. Veidt has never encountered anyone like Batman in hand to hand combat.
Batman is 6'2 and approximately 210. It is very clear here that he holds the size advantage and I will reveal as to why now.
Looking at your scans, it's clear to see that the Comedian was actually able to overpower Ozy to an extent.
Despite the fact that Ozy was able to secure a headlock and initially took him to the ground, both attempts were easily thwarted by the Comedian using simple applications of force. The Comedian by all intents and purposes is leagues below Batman in combat.
Why is that important? Because Batman is not only a swift and evasive opponent go up against. He is also a powerhouse.
This version of Batman has not been timid in abusing his judo and strength to flat out floor opponents even under the precarious conditions of a headlock.
This is something that will be hard for me... as the Watchmenverse is so much smaller and grounded than the DCU. I won't be able to accurately portray Comedian as being on Batman's level due to the fact that Comedian doesn't tend to fight the caliber of opponent that Batman usually does. That being said, Comedian is still a worldclass fighter, and is much bigger and stronger than Adrien. Eddie Blake is 6''2 225 lbs ;) So Batman's size and strength advantage shouldn't give him any sort of upper hand.
I must reiterate, that in this scan (below) that I posted earlier, Ozy can be seen saying that he held back in order to examine Comedian's fighting style, and take note of it for later. He also said that he intentionally allowed Eddie to win the fight. This was in a monologue, so it is the truth.
This is a pretty classic Ozy move, and it is something that Batman would have to deal with for sure.
Here is another example...
Gallery
Scans are backwards again... Sorry.
In the second scan (which is actually the one that should come first) you can get a look inside what goes through Ozy's brilliant mind before a fight. In the scene, Ozy is faced with a gang of several armed men. Ozy uses his incredible perception ability to take in his surroundings and opponents, and then strike without the other party even knowing what is happening. All of the men are armed, and Ozy is moving so fast and in such a confusing manner that the men are shooting at essentially his shadow. Ozy states that he is 7 steps ahead, and this is how it is in every fight that Ozy takes part in.
So what is to stop Adrien from doing this to Batman? Yes Batman is a great fighter, but Ozy could easily hold back a bit during the beginning of the fight, in order to gain a better understanding of how the dark knight moves and fights. Then, Ozy could turn it up, and exploit any weaknesses that Batman might have to defeat him.
And don't forget the stilettos that Ozy has in his gauntlets. He has deadly pinpoint accuracy, and could easily toss one of those into Batman's neck if he pauses for even a millisecond too long.
There is a reason he is jokingly referred to as the BatGod. Memes such as "Batman wins with prep." actually have very real foundations.
He has the ability to reinvent the wheel. His one and true super power is how he prepares.
For example, when he went up against Clayface, he had much less time than an hour to formulate a plan that involved chemistry, detective work and strategy.
I know that getting into a prep war with the Bat seems mad, but Ozy is a prep master as well. Unfortunately, he only has one feat to go off of, but it is more impressive than anything Batman has accomplished thus far. Ozy was able to incapacitate Jon, who is essentially a cosmic level being. I don't think it is wild to believe that Ozy wouldn't be able to make incredible use of his prep time, in a manner that at least rivals that of Batman.
And while you mentioned that Bat-computer, don't forget that Adrien is a billionaire as well, and has access to the same multitude of resources that Bruce does. For example, it is possible that Adrien could create some sort of EMP device that could counter act any of Batman's electrical gadgets. I think it is reasonable to believe it could be done considering Adrien is the smartest and richest man on the planet (in WM). And yes, Ozy went public with his identity, but he has his abilities and intentions well covered up by several shell corporations and false flags. He is much more intelligent than most foes Bruce is used to tangling with.
I am still baffled as to why you would choose that as the "battleground". That's practically Batman's wetdream. But hey, you could surprise me.
I might change that picture if you don't mind. I just wanted the fight to be in a warehouse, and I thought that picture looked cool. I didn't want it to be at night, as that would greatly favor you.
I also forget to mention in my intro why I even brought up the acrobat stuff. I feel like Batman fighting Ozy would be like Batman fighting Nightwing. I believe Ozy is a much more skilled fighter than Dick though, but Ozy will be able to use that agility and athleticism to avoid and dodge Bruce's attacks and gadgets if need be.
Counter Points
- Ozy DOES have the superior reaction speed, and even has similar feats to those of Batman's plain bullet dodging.
- Ozy is a master of perception and taking in his surroundings. Every second that Batman stands in front of Adrien, Ozy will slowly gain the upperhand.
- Bruce does have more gadgets, but they both have very similar resources.
I am afraid that my previous analysis of this feat still stands.
I wouldn't say that Ozy had much time at all to see where the pistol was aimed... She calls his name and shoots while he is still in the process of turning around.
It's definitely a reaction feat... and much more impressive than run of the mil. The pistol was fired beforeOzy was able to even fully turn around, and then he caught the bullet. As stated earlier, bullets move at about 2500 ft/second, and Ozy was probably around 2 feet away. Ozy had to react to something that was moving that fast before he even had enough time to see what was coming at him. But not only does he have time to react to it, he has time to catch it. That requires even more speed, and incredible concentration and perception. Batman has several bullet dodging feats, but that does not equal the same reaction time as Ozy does in that panel.
It is irrelevant how fast a bullet travels when Ozy was already in full position to catch it BEFORE it was even fired.
If we follow the CORRECT order of how the events were shown to us, then we can see that what you are saying just did not happen in that sequence.
First she warns him ahead of time and Ozy starts to move his hand into place. There is no sign of fire or even that she was already squeezing the trigger in fact a clear warning was issued. She finishes a complete whole sentence after having paused previously(notice the ellipsis after she calls his name obviously signaling a short pause/a life time given to move for any street leveler) calling his name. If anything Ozy was able to deduce what her clear intentions were and sprung into action.
Then and only then was when the shot was fired in the same spot where Veidt moved his hand.
Another piece of evidence is that Veidt himself starts speaking right before she shoots him. Are you trying to tell me that he can talk faster than the speed of a bullet in the same fashion Superman and Flash can? Nonsense. The writer's intentions are made clear in the illustrations. Veidt is brilliant enough to detect the trajectory of a bullet in the same fashion Batman and his family have done with ease in the past.
Even the director of the film adaptation agrees with this.
Ozy uses his perception to anticipate where the bullet would land.
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He is nowhere near fast enough to perceive a bullet AFTER it has been fired and then move fast enough to catch it like you are trying to make it look like he can.
Otherwise he would have flat out stomped the Comedian based on speed alone and they were both fighting evenly, countering each others moves in the same speed frequency. Regardless of whether he let him win or not is not evidence that Ozy would have won if he wanted. Obviously Ozy considers Comedian to be close to his equal if he felt the need to straight up sand bag the fight in order to get intel on him so he could beat him in a next encounter.
I'll tackle a pair of those bullet timing scans you laid on me.
Gallery
- In this first scan, we can see something that Batman does on the regular when dealing with fodder enemies. He is able to use his cape to increase his size and strike fear into the eyes of his enemies. They then freak out, and tend to shoot blindly, very often hitting nothing but the cape.
- In the second scan, Batman is simply shielding himself from machine gun fire with his bullet proof gauntlets. It is still a solid reaction feat, but again, he didn't have to be as fast as Ozy, and he is at least faced with his opponent unlike Veidt, who was snuck up on.
Actually, he wasn't dealing with fodder enemies in that first scan. 2 of the red hood gang were actually main characters in the story arc and he did that to them all the same.
Funny that you bring that up since in that same battle he actually dodges a couple of bullets while acrobatically twirling himself on a railing. This feat alone is too much for Ozy.
Here, he is in pure day light. They can all see him. They are not afraid and are aiming for killshots. Batman is still fast enough to react to their attacks while holding his whole body up in a modified handstand on a railing. This is as good as it gets. Batman displays a high level of acrobatics and bullet dodging that Ozy cannot simply compete with. Evading bullets from multiple assailants not just one while acrobatically moving in a precarious position and still be good enough to take them down. He didn't need to feint and trick them into thinking he was dead. He simply has the better reactions.
I like how you chose those scans in an attempt to pass off Batman's reaction as pure trickery by completely neglecting this one.
As if the latter scan wasn't enough let me further dissect this one for consistency's sake.
Here, his cover is blown. No shadows. Cape's already been reduced to drapes so he cant use it to make himself a harder target like you've described.
Let's compare the two feats and I'll show you how this one alone blows yours away.
Batman not only has his back turned but he is also subduing an opponent.
Regardless he is able to track the opponent behind him aiming a machine gun at him and moves accordingly to dance around the bullets and subdue him too.
Not only is Batman dodging fire from a foe just a couple of feet away, he is also dodging machine gun fire NOT a handgun like Ozy.
Batman is left relatively unscathed after the encounter.
I know that Ozy's only chance in this game is his reactions. But as you can see, Batman has simply done the same thing and better.
Advantage: Batman
Me: In fact he reacted so fast that he was able to bring down the whole shotgun's aim at an almost 90 degree to the ground just in time to have the attacker shoot himself.
You: Again, I wouldn't say that is as fast as Ozy throwing a dart down Comedians barrel from ten feet away while he is already in the process of pulling the trigger.
This feat is also overblown. And now I will tell you why.
Any expert marksman will tell you that pulling a trigger is actually not as easy as it sounds. Doing it properly anyway.
For example, a target from 10 feet away is actually very easy to miss if you simply 'pull' on the trigger. Marksmen will tell you that you have to SQUEEZE the trigger if you want any hope at having your bullet land where you intend it to.
vs just yanking on it which will cause you to flat out miss especially with a machine gun
Why does that matter? Simple.
Assuming Comedian is a decent marksman, we also have to assume that he squeezed the trigger. Backing this is the writer's choice to use the word "tightening". To tighten is closer related to "squeezing" than it is to "pulling" or "yanking". Again why is this relevant? Because squeezing takes more time than simple pulling.
Properly squeezing a trigger would take you approximately 2-4 seconds which is ample time to react by either of these men.
This is something that will be hard for me... as the Watchmenverse is so much smaller and grounded than the DCU. I won't be able to accurately portray Comedian as being on Batman's level due to the fact that Comedian doesn't tend to fight the caliber of opponent that Batman usually does. That being said, Comedian is still a worldclass fighter, and is much bigger and stronger than Adrien. Eddie Blake is 6''2 225 lbs ;) So Batman's size and strength advantage shouldn't give him any sort of upper hand.
I must reiterate, that in this scan (below) that I posted earlier, Ozy can be seen saying that he held back in order to examine Comedian's fighting style, and take note of it for later. He also said that he intentionally allowed Eddie to win the fight. This was in a monologue, so it is the truth.
And I must reiterate that it doesn't matter if he let him win or not. The fact that he let him win tells us that he sees him as a threat that he would rather deal with at a later time and with the aid of prep. In no way does it tells us if he would have won but only that he would have tried to win leaving us with a very inconclusive "what if" moment.
The Comedian being a world class fighter means nothing since Batman ends fights with world class ASSASSINS in seconds.
Observe as not only is he able to easily battle an assassin from the league, he is also using his detective mind to dissect his moves, pin point the location of their technique and adapt/prepare himself on the fly to see the opening he needs.
To land a final blow.
If Batman gets one hit in (and he will) Ozy is going down. He easily destroyed a Membo in one blow. Membo's are usually made out of metal and were used in feudal times to protect from sharp steel such as a Samurai Sword. Not only did he destroy the mask, he also knocked out the assassin and left him bleeding on the floor. ONE PUNCH.
ONE PUNCH from Batman was able to break through metal and take his enemy out. Ozy does not have the durability to stand a blow from Batman.
So, it does matter that Batman is bigger than him because he knows how to use his size and weight to gain the advantage. He can also modify his fighting on the fly to take out Ozy as shown in the scan before.
It's a classic move for Ozy to sandbag fights? I don't see how that helps him at all in this encounter.
Batman's superior grappling (as showcased in the first post), superior reaction speed (as shown in both instances where he dances around bullets), coupled with his devastating striking should give him more than enough to finish him quick.
Scans are backwards again... Sorry.
In the second scan (which is actually the one that should come first) you can get a look inside what goes through Ozy's brilliant mind before a fight. In the scene, Ozy is faced with a gang of several armed men. Ozy uses his incredible perception ability to take in his surroundings and opponents, and then strike without the other party even knowing what is happening. All of the men are armed, and Ozy is moving so fast and in such a confusing manner that the men are shooting at essentially his shadow. Ozy states that he is 7 steps ahead, and this is how it is in every fight that Ozy takes part in.
So what is to stop Adrien from doing this to Batman? Yes Batman is a great fighter, but Ozy could easily hold back a bit during the beginning of the fight, in order to gain a better understanding of how the dark knight moves and fights. Then, Ozy could turn it up, and exploit any weaknesses that Batman might have to defeat him.
And don't forget the stilettos that Ozy has in his gauntlets. He has deadly pinpoint accuracy, and could easily toss one of those into Batman's neck if he pauses for even a millisecond too long.
I'll throw the same argument you threw at me in different lettering. He did that to fodder. Batman did the same but more impressively reacting to multiple bullets, in a horribly disadvantageous position and to top it all of he didn't have to stop and perceive anything he simply did it on the fly. That's pure reaction on the fly.
I don't see how the stilettos would pose a threat. He surely didn't use them to hit Comedian. Batman has more than enough feats of him evading groups of machine gunners to be hit by a much slower stiletto.
I know that getting into a prep war with the Bat seems mad, but Ozy is a prep master as well. Unfortunately, he only has one feat to go off of, but it is more impressive than anything Batman has accomplished thus far. Ozy was able to incapacitate Jon, who is essentially a cosmic level being. I don't think it is wild to believe that Ozy wouldn't be able to make incredible use of his prep time, in a manner that at least rivals that of Batman.
I don't see how you can even conceive Ozy on the same level of prep effectiveness as Batman based solely on one FAILED feat.
I fail to see how he is "omnipotent" when he has a very tangible weakness to tachyon. That's no different than Batman exploiting Superman's weaknesses (except Batman actually won).
I also fail to see how he incapacitated Jon.
Because it looks to me like he was pretty much powerless when he faced him and would have been destroyed if Jon wished it.
His victory was more abstract than anything and it holds no bearing in this fight.
All you have going for him at this point are assumptions of what you believe that he can possibly do and nothing that shows us that he can actually do it.
Points
Batman holds the more impressive bullet dodging feats under worst conditions.
It is irrelevant how fast a bullet travels when Ozy was already in full position to catch it BEFORE it was even fired.
If we follow the CORRECT order of how the events were shown to us, then we can see that what you are saying just did not happen in that sequence.
First she warns him ahead of time and Ozy starts to move his hand into place. There is no sign of fire or even that she was already squeezing the trigger in fact a clear warning was issued. She finishes a complete whole sentence after having paused previously(notice the ellipsis after she calls his name obviously signaling a short pause/a life time given to move for any street leveler) calling his name. If anything Ozy was able to deduce what her clear intentions were and sprung into action.
Then and only then was when the shot was fired in the same spot where Veidt moved his hand.
Another piece of evidence is that Veidt himself starts speaking right before she shoots him. Are you trying to tell me that he can talk faster than the speed of a bullet in the same fashion Superman and Flash can? Nonsense. The writer's intentions are made clear in the illustrations. Veidt is brilliant enough to detect the trajectory of a bullet in the same fashion Batman and his family have done with ease in the past.
Even the director of the film adaptation agrees with this.
Ozy uses his perception to anticipate where the bullet would land.
He is nowhere near fast enough to perceive a bullet AFTER it has been fired and then move fast enough to catch it like you are trying to make it look like he can.
Otherwise he would have flat out stomped the Comedian based on speed alone and they were both fighting evenly, countering each others moves in the same speed frequency. Regardless of whether he let him win or not is not evidence that Ozy would have won if he wanted. Obviously Ozy considers Comedian to be close to his equal if he felt the need to straight up sand bag the fight in order to get intel on him so he could beat him in a next encounter.
I'm sorry, but Ozy was NOT in "full position to catch the bullet". Yes, Spectre alerted him by speaking, but Adrien was still in the process of turning around when the bullet was fired. Regardless of how set you thought he was, he wasn't. He was in the process of getting set to deal with the threat that was behind him, and even then, he didn't know it was a bullet until she was in his peripheral vision. Based on ONLY what we can see in the panels, She calls his name, says he is an asshole, then Adrien starts to turn, then, while he is half way to three quarters of the way turned around she fires. You can see that in the final panel, where Adrien is still relatively parallel to Spectre. And no, I'm not saying that he talks faster than the speed of a bullet. That is absurd. The only thing he says in the time that Sally calls his name to the time the bullet is fired is "hughhhhh". Based on the art style and lettering, you can deduce that that panel is in slow motion. After she says he is an asshole, he says "hughh" while turning, then she shoots.
The fact is this: Adrien's reaction time is quick enough to catch a bullet after hearing Sally say his name, and call him an ass hole. He didn't see she had a gun until he was half way turned around, and she shot the gun when he has 3/4 of the way turned around.
The movie clip is irrelevant. This is not the film version of Ozy.
He is fast enough to do that, but it says more about his brain processing speed. He is able to perceive the gun, the projection, and trajectory in the time it took him to turn around 1/4 of the way before she shot him. If you refuse to acknowledge it as the strong reaction feat it is, then you can understand it is a superhuman brain speed/perception feat. Batman has dodged bullets, but he hasn't caught one, because his brain can't function at that high of a speed. That will make a huge difference when they are fighting, and Ozy is gaining intel quicker than Bats.
Also, Ozy did stomp Comedian the second time... Yes, Ozy surprised Comedian, but he was going all out, and murder stomped Comedian in his home.
Actually, he wasn't dealing with fodder enemies in that first scan. 2 of the red hood gang were actually main characters in the story arc and he did that to them all the same.
Funny that you bring that up since in that same battle he actually dodges a couple of bullets while acrobatically twirling himself on a railing. This feat alone is too much for Ozy.
To a high end street-leveler like Batman, Red Hood gang members are fodder.
That feat is DEFINITELY not too much for Ozy.
Here, he is in pure day light. They can all see him. They are not afraid and are aiming for killshots. Batman is still fast enough to react to their attacks while holding his whole body up in a modified handstand on a railing. This is as good as it gets. Batman displays a high level of acrobatics and bullet dodging that Ozy cannot simply compete with. Evading bullets from multiple assailants not just one while acrobatically moving in a precarious position and still be good enough to take them down. He didn't need to feint and trick them into thinking he was dead. He simply has the better reactions.
Yeah, that isn't much more impressive than this feat that I showed earlier...
Ozy is the one with the cape, and you can follow him. Ozy is being shot at by several armed thugs (like Batman) and he is dodging them by performing several incredible acrobatic feats (like Batman). He is doing backflips, hurdles, climbing, and shooting around like he was on a trampoline. Plus, when did I say Ozy feinted and played dead to defeat an opponent?
Here, his cover is blown. No shadows. Cape's already been reduced to drapes so he cant use it to make himself a harder target like you've described.
Let's compare the two feats and I'll show you how this one alone blows yours away.
Batman not only has his back turned but he is also subduing an opponent.
Regardless he is able to track the opponent behind him aiming a machine gun at him and moves accordingly to dance around the bullets and subdue him too.
Not only is Batman dodging fire from a foe just a couple of feet away, he is also dodging machine gun fire NOT a handgun like Ozy.
Batman is left relatively unscathed after the encounter.
I know that Ozy's only chance in this game is his reactions. But as you can see, Batman has simply done the same thing and better.
Advantage: Batman
Yeah, no. Ozy has a feat that is better than that. I saved it.
Ozy was investigating the dock, and then (without even turning around) he noticed something behind him, and (without turning around) dodged machine gun fire from the Comedian (a very skilled marskman). Ozy doesn't get hit once. Even in the cape.
Advantage: Ozy
Ozy's only chance in this fight definitely isn't his reaction speed. It is one of his strongest abilities, but his perception, brain function, fighting ability, and acrobatics give him just as good a chance against Bats.
Holy sh*t your post was long...
This feat is also overblown. And now I will tell you why.
Any expert marksman will tell you that pulling a trigger is actually not as easy as it sounds. Doing it properly anyway.
For example, a target from 10 feet away is actually very easy to miss if you simply 'pull' on the trigger. Marksmen will tell you that you have to SQUEEZE the trigger if you want any hope at having your bullet land where you intend it to.
Assuming Comedian is a decent marksman, we also have to assume that he squeezed the trigger. Backing this is the writer's choice to use the word "tightening". To tighten is closer related to "squeezing" than it is to "pulling" or "yanking". Again why is this relevant? Because squeezing takes more time than simple pulling.
Properly squeezing a trigger would take you approximately 2-4 seconds which is ample time to react by either of these men.
I must disagree again. First of all, I think 2-4 seconds is extreme, unless you are doing target shooting or something. Comedian IS an expert marksman, and was using a machine gun, which means that he didn't need to pay as much attention to aiming and precise trigger pulling. From that distance, he would have been able to pull the trigger much quicker (especially since he is a talented marksman, skilled gunman, and overall very strong individual). The examples you showed, were of pistols. That would require a whole different technique. Not to mention the second one was of a revolver. That is practically like firing a shotgun.
And going back to your feat of Batman catching and pulling the shotgun down, he was up against a marksman that wasn't nearly as talented as Comedian.
And I must reiterate that it doesn't matter if he let him win or not. The fact that he let him win tells us that he sees him as a threat that he would rather deal with at a later time and with the aid of prep. In no way does it tells us if he would have won but only that he would have tried to win leaving us with a very inconclusive "what if" moment.
The point of me stating that he let him win was just to display his perception and computation skills of enemies in combat. If the fight had continued, Ozy could have used this information to wipe the floor with Comedian, but he didn't, because he didn't want to or need to defeat him for any reason. In this scenario, he would have a reason.
Yes Batman broke that guys mask, but I showed earlier Ozy breaking a boulder by punching it. Not much difference in those feats of strength.
And when you say that Ozy doesn't have the durability, we don't know that for sure, because NO ONE has ever landed a clean hit on Ozy. And you can check any fight he has ever been in for that.
It's a classic move for Ozy to sandbag fights? I don't see how that helps him at all in this encounter.
I was stating that it was a classic move for Ozy to give the opponent the illusion that they have the upper hand.
I don't see how the stilettos would pose a threat. He surely didn't use them to hit Comedian. Batman has more than enough feats of him evading groups of machine gunners to be hit by a much slower stiletto
He didn't use them on Comedian because he didn't want to kill Comedian. And Ozy can still use the Stilettos as hidden blades if he doesn't want to throw them. So if Batman slips up on one block, Ozy could stab him in the neck.
I don't see how you can even conceive Ozy on the same level of prep effectiveness as Batman based solely on one FAILED feat.
I fail to see how he is "omnipotent" when he has a very tangible weakness to tachyon. That's no different than Batman exploiting Superman's weaknesses (except Batman actually won).
I also fail to see how he incapacitated Jon.
Uhh... have you read Watchmen? He succeeded... Ozy was able to prevent the only person on Earth who could stop him from stopping him. And the Tachyon's aren't really a weakness, they just blur his future vision. That isn't anything like Superman, who when exposed to his weakness, is the equivalent to a cancer patient. And again, Jon is WAY above Superman. He only has two prep feats, but their impressiveness is what gives them merit.
Other than preventing Jon from stopping him, he was also able to engineer an alien and a teleportation method that would result in an explosion that kills half the population of New York City. My point is that Batman doesn't have a New-52 prep feat that is impressive as this.
Obviously Jon would destroy Ozy, but his goal was already finished by that point. The same could be said of Batman. If batman met Superman (without Justice Buster/kryptonite) he would get destroyed. Batman also has wiki-page knowledge of the entire Justice League, and he only has basic knowledge of Ozy.
Summary
Ozy STILL has more impressive reaction feats. As displayed by a further explanation of the bullet catch, and the machine gun fire he dodged from Comedian.
Ozy has the most impressive prep feat of the two, even if he only has two feats to go off of.
Batman has never fought anyone that has both the brain knowledge AND fighting skill of Ozymandias. Of course, the same could be said of Ozy... He has fought people with similar fighting ability, but not brain capacity. Except for Nite Owl (who he stomped in two seconds) but that fight was extremely short.
Batman will have a hard time hitting Ozy, and Ozy will use that time to deduce a method in which to defeat him with.
I'm sorry, but Ozy was NOT in "full position to catch the bullet". Yes, Spectre alerted him by speaking, but Adrien was still in the process of turning around when the bullet was fired. Regardless of how set you thought he was, he wasn't.
I wasn't thinking anything. I quite literally showed you the order the panels were set up in a way any person can see them.
And here they are
again.
There's no sign of Ozy moving at the same exact time a shot's been fired. No sign at all. If anything we see that the panel ends with his hand in position to take the projectile that's shot on a completely different panel.
You can see Ozzy well aware of her intentions by the shocked look on his face and then swiftly moving his hands into place. There is not a single sign in that panel, that can give us the inclination to conclude that Ozy is fast enough to beat an already fired bullet. Especially when he has trouble with an adversary like Comedian.
The order the panels are set up in a comic book, dictates the time progression of the events.
Essentially you are trying to violate that rule by saying that two events happened at the same exact time when they happened in two different panels in an attempt to buff your character's speed.
He was in the process of getting set to deal with the threat that was behind him, and even then, he didn't know it was a bullet until she was in his peripheral vision. Based on ONLY what we can see in the panels, She calls his name, says he is an asshole, then Adrien starts to turn, then, while he is half way to three quarters of the way turned around she fires. You can see that in the final panel, where Adrien is still relatively parallel to Spectre. And no, I'm not saying that he talks faster than the speed of a bullet. That is absurd. The only thing he says in the time that Sally calls his name to the time the bullet is fired is "hughhhhh". Based on the art style and lettering, you can deduce that that panel is in slow motion. After she says he is an asshole, he says "hughh" while turning, then she shoots.
If you were basing anything of what we were seeing in the scans, you wouldn't be having such a hard time with this argument.
It's irrelevant whether the panel is in slow motion or not. The end result is still the same.
You are trying to add pseudo-meaning to a scan that is VERY clear in its depiction.
The fact is this: Adrien's reaction time is quick enough to catch a bullet after hearing Sally say his name, and call him an ass hole. He didn't see she had a gun until he was half way turned around, and she shot the gun when he has 3/4 of the way turned around.
But that's just it. He isn't fast enough to catch a bullet. Much like any common street level character out there, he is sharp enough to know where the bullet was going to land. All he did essentially was put his hand in front of the trajectory of the bullet. He didn't snatch it out of thin air like you are trying to make it seem like he did.
His hands are cupped open like baseball gloves ready to receive.
Some food for thought: If it is true that he only realized that she had a gun when he was half way turned around then why oh why was he already on the move guiding his hand way before then as depicted by the "slomo" visuals. :/
The movie clip is irrelevant. This is not the film version of Ozy.
Funny enough, the clip is VERY relevant to my point because it mirrors the same opinion of the event from two different beings (mine and the director) vs yours which seems almost concocted in order to give Ozy some sort of Neo status.
Ozy is simply very good at perceiving object displacement. But this skill is common place in comic book fiction as I am about to show you, AGAIN.
He is fast enough to do that, but it says more about his brain processing speed. He is able to perceive the gun, the projection, and trajectory in the time it took him to turn around 1/4 of the way before she shot him. If you refuse to acknowledge it as the strong reaction feat it is, then you can understand it is a superhuman brain speed/perception feat.
You are adding nouns in order to garnish your character.
The only thing he has to do is look where the muzzle of the gun is pointing in order to know its trajectory. No need to add three different nouns that probably do not even exist in the novel.
If those few feats are enough for you to conclude that Ozy has superhuman brain speed/perception then surely you must believe Batman to have whatever you feel is above that.
Batman has dodged bullets, but he hasn't caught one, because his brain can't function at that high of a speed. That will make a huge difference when they are fighting, and Ozy is gaining intel quicker than Bats.
What? I fail to see this supposed superior processing power. It surely didn't help him when he had to throw his fight against Comedian so that he could have PREP time. I guess his superior processing power only works when it wants to.
Also, you keep harping on this one single feat and still fail to realize how common place it is. To put it bluntly, for a guy like Batman it's EASY.
Pre 52 Batman has his share of truck load of feats that eclipse it.
Even New 52 Batman.
But here, let me show you yet ANOTHER "bullet" feat that blows Ozy's completely out of the water by sheer volume of obstacles encountered and ease displayed in doing the same thing with much better effect.
Different writers, different story all together still view Batman this way.
Scenario: Batman and Catwoman are battling a squad of super augmented humans.
Nevermind how easy he is dispatching these metas, simply observe the positioning of the man in the dark on the lower right corner. He is essentially holding a hostage and is armed with a gun.
Batman is obviously distracted and focused on the team of super powered villains. Outmaneuvering and taking them down in spectacular fashion.
Batman lands and his back is quite literally turned to the man with the gun. Very low probability of even noticing a man in the background when you have a few monsters in front of you who are trying to rip your head off.
Not only is Batman preoccupied maneuvering this set of foes, he is also worried about Catwoman's safety.
To put the cherry on top of all the distractions his "brain" is currently handling, one of the meta's explodes to create even more pandemonium.
Just as he is doing so, the man behind him in the dark shoots several rounds at him without hint or warning.
Problem? No problem at all.
His reactions are still sharp enough and he is fast enough to block a small barrage of bullets from the man standing several feet away from him without the slightest warning.
Like I said, common place.
Also, Ozy did stomp Comedian the second time... Yes, Ozy surprised Comedian, but he was going all out, and murder stomped Comedian in his home.
He beat him with prep after he sandbagged their first fight because he obviously considered him a threat to him. The fact that he felt the need to surprise him further cements this fact.
To a high end street-leveler like Batman, Red Hood gang members are fodder.
That feat is DEFINITELY not too much for Ozy.
Of course. But Ozy is no Batman. (Didn't I mention earlier that a few of those very members were not fodder? Just checking.)
You were trying to pass Ozy's "processing power" as superior based on one overblown high end feat and I just went and took that down with more feats for consistency's sake. Ozy's one high end feat cannot compete with Batman's normalcy.
I am not saying that Ozy is slow. I am saying that Batman has been there and done that and better and with far more ease.
I must disagree again. First of all, I think 2-4 seconds is extreme, unless you are doing target shooting or something. Comedian IS an expert marksman, and was using a machine gun, which means that he didn't need to pay as much attention to aiming and precise trigger pulling. From that distance, he would have been able to pull the trigger much quicker (especially since he is a talented marksman, skilled gunman, and overall very strong individual). The examples you showed, were of pistols. That would require a whole different technique. Not to mention the second one was of a revolver. That is practically like firing a shotgun.
And going back to your feat of Batman catching and pulling the shotgun down, he was up against a marksman that wasn't nearly as talented as Comedian.
LOL. No.
ANY marksman will tell you that it takes just about that amount of time to properly squeeze a trigger on a target.
You still don't get it. It does not matter how strong you are. The whole point of "tightening" (as described in the scan itself) or squeezing the trigger is to allow for that shot to actually surprise you as you squeeze it because your intent is in having your gun aimed at the target the which is why you don't simply just pull it which will cause a few inches of sway in the trajectory which keeps multiplying the further away you are from the target (in this case 10 feet according to what you told me).
It is pretty irrelevant whether he is using a machine gun or hand gun. In fact, it's more imperative that you follow the squeezing method with a machine gun since your gun WILL recoil from the initial burst which means your other shots will be well far off from target.
Judging by the way Comedian was holding that machine gun (hip fire), he would have to bet on hitting him with his first burst which explains the choice of the word "tightening" utilized by the author.
Regarding the Shotgun/Batman Comment: A man that clearly wanted to kill him. Even if he has normal human reactions, it is still hell of impressive.
Imagine aiming a gun at somebody pointblank and as you think that you are pulling the trigger on them, you end up shooting your own foot because of how fast they were in bringing that muzzle down 90 degrees to your foot. Batman's also kneeling in that post coming from a full standing position about a few feet away. That means he actually traveled that distance and went on to a crouch position while bringing down that shotgun before a grown bloodlusted man's finger could pull a trigger.
The point of me stating that he let him win was just to display his perception and computation skills of enemies in combat. If the fight had continued, Ozy could have used this information to wipe the floor with Comedian, but he didn't, because he didn't want to or need to defeat him for any reason. In this scenario, he would have a reason.
Yes Batman broke that guys mask, but I showed earlier Ozy breaking a boulder by punching it. Not much difference in those feats of strength.
And when you say that Ozy doesn't have the durability, we don't know that for sure, because NO ONE has ever landed a clean hit on Ozy. And you can check any fight he has ever been in for that.
What? Just a second ago, you said Ozy will be getting intel on Batman on the fly thanks to his "super duper computation skills". Now you are telling me that this brain has an extended loading time? You either have a superbrain that preps on the moment or you don't. Giving me that feat proves that he needs to give his brain time to formulate a plan to take down someone like Comedian.
Ozy breaking a boulder? Also overblown and common place.
Here's Batman's recent fight against an opponent that is stronger than Ozy and even Batman put together via Venom.
A man that can pick up a fully grown man up by his head like a puppy.
And break him with ease.
Bane had just finished juicing and was out for blood.
You think breaking a boulder is impressive in this world?
Currently in the New 52 Bane has gotten an upgrade close to a 10 tonner (some say 20).
This is put on display on various occasions where he tosses bigger than human sized boulders around at leisure.
This version of Bane also destroyed Killer Croc by overpowering him. A monster that is agile and bulletproof. Bane broke him in their first fight.
Bane ripped several tons of equipment with incredible ease as he lashed out at Batman.
This is the type of guy Batman routinely tanks hits from.
Gallery
He has even tanked getting hit by a half a ton piece of equipment and straight through a brick wall. Then got smashed again by said equipment.
Batman was still at 100% by the end of the bout.
No doubt a credit in great part to his suit.
Batman has simply tanked far more damage from far more powerful foes than Ozy (has even conceived) and came back to win those fights and still be in top peak condition to do it all over again.
And when you say that Ozy doesn't have the durability, we don't know that for sure, because NO ONE has ever landed a clean hit on Ozy. And you can check any fight he has ever been in for that.
Ummmmmm...
Elbow to the face. Ozy screams in pain. Yup, looks like a hit to me.
Comedian is several echelon's below Batman in just about every department even if they share a similar build. The feats that I have posted are testament to that claim.
Comedian was able to overpower Ozy, which plays right into Batman's judo/grappling game and he was also able to land a hit on him, Batman (as shown above in just about every scan) has got the speed in spades to land as he wants when he wants.
The only thing going for Ozy is his ability to be nimble. (which as you can see is not going to help him against someone with more impressive reaction feats than him)That one hit from Comedian was enough to bring him down. So we actually DO know that Ozy cannot stand a blow from Batman who has done far more damage which less powerful appendages.
He didn't use them on Comedian because he didn't want to kill Comedian. And Ozy can still use the Stilettos as hidden blades if he doesn't want to throw them. So if Batman slips up on one block, Ozy could stab him in the neck.
Yes, because Batman has never ever faced anyone with blades before like ever...
Oh wait.
Pretty common.
For example in the scan above, he is fighting an entire gang. Fodder? Sure. But he has to keep track of 7 plus blades that are all coming to take his life in a VERY CLOSE quarters situation where he can't simply just flip away from all of them. Ozy only has two stilettos and is still just ONE man. That is too easy for Batman to track.
He has even dealt with assassins that have pin point accuracy with their blades.
Not just pin point accuracy but know exactly where to throw their knives in order to incapacitate you. And they carry a hell of a lot more than just 2 blades. :/
Uhh... have you read Watchmen? He succeeded... Ozy was able to prevent the only person on Earth who could stop him from stopping him. And the Tachyon's aren't really a weakness, they just blur his future vision. That isn't anything like Superman, who when exposed to his weakness, is the equivalent to a cancer patient. And again, Jon is WAY above Superman. He only has two prep feats, but their impressiveness is what gives them merit.
Other than preventing Jon from stopping him, he was also able to engineer an alien and a teleportation method that would result in an explosion that kills half the population of New York City. My point is that Batman doesn't have a New-52 prep feat that is impressive as this.
Obviously Jon would destroy Ozy, but his goal was already finished by that point. The same could be said of Batman. If batman met Superman (without Justice Buster/kryptonite) he would get destroyed. Batman also has wiki-page knowledge of the entire Justice League, and he only has basic knowledge of Ozy
Actually, he does. But I see absolutely no point in mentioning them here since they have no pertinence to this scenario. You have been giving prep feats that are heavily based on context and hold absolutely no relevance to this scenario. You are pretty much making huge leaps in assumption land as to what you think your character can do with prep.
I doubt it very seriously that Ozy is going to try to beat Batman with a remote control.
I mentioned the JL feat because those members that came after Batman were all BLOODLUSTED.
Batman survived them based on his prep. Ozy on the other hand would NOT have survived Jon if he wanted to kill him.
Batman does not need the prior knowledge, it's pretty much just adding salt to a wound at this point. With the prep given, Batman will easily build a box around Ozy's plan in the same way he has done so to genius level villains such as Lex, Joker and Riddler.
Ozy is just a man, and Batman knows how to disable any man and most meta humans. He is stronger than him, arguably faster and is more resourceful.
Recap
Batman has a much larger number of reaction feats that make Ozy's seem elementary in nature.
Batman is too durable for Ozy to take on with his base strength.
Batman has got too much experience fighting foes with blades.
Batman is a lot faster and stronger than Comedian who has been able to tag and knock Ozy down in one blow.
There's no sign of Ozy moving at the same exact time a shot's been fired. No sign at all. If anything we see that the panel ends with his hand in position to take the projectile that's shot on a completely different panel.
You can see Ozzy well aware of her intentions by the shocked look on his face and then swiftly moving his hands into place. There is not a single sign in that panel, that can give us the inclination to conclude that Ozy is fast enough to beat an already fired bullet. Especially when he has trouble with an adversary like Comedian.
The order the panels are set up in a comic book, dictates the time progression of the events.
Essentially you are trying to violate that rule by saying that two events happened at the same exact time when they happened in two different panels in an attempt to buff your character's speed.
I think you are confusing what I'm trying to say about this feat. I'm not suggesting that the second and third panel occurred at the same time. I'm just assuming that the third panel happens immediately after the second panel, and in the second panel, he is just turned around far enough to see that Spectre is holding a gun to him. Right after this moment, the gun is fired.
Even if he was able to get his hand into position, that is extremely impressive. Ozy was only turned around far enough to see Spectre and her gun right before the shot was fired. That means he only had a fraction of a second to register the scenario, analyze the threat, and determine a course of action. That speaks to his brain processing speed.
But that's just it. He isn't fast enough to catch a bullet. Much like any common street level character out there, he is sharp enough to know where the bullet was going to land. All he did essentially was put his hand in front of the trajectory of the bullet. He didn't snatch it out of thin air like you are trying to make it seem like he did.
His hands are cupped open like baseball gloves ready to receive.
Some food for thought: If it is true that he only realized that she had a gun when he was half way turned around then why oh why was he already on the move guiding his hand way before then as depicted by the "slomo" visuals. :/
Do you think there isn't any speed factor to catching a bullet? You're suggesting that as long as you know where the bullet will go, that you can just catch it like a baseball. If you are off by even a fraction of a millisecond, that bullet is going right through your hand. This feat isn't as easy as you're making it sound.
When he is turning around he is just putting his hands up in a defensive stance, because he is unaware of what the threat is.
The only thing he has to do is look where the muzzle of the gun is pointing in order to know its trajectory. No need to add three different nouns that probably do not even exist in the novel.
Again, based on your logic, I could catch a bullet as long as I saw where it was coming from. Why aren't all street leveler's catching bullets if it is so easy?
What? I fail to see this supposed superior processing power. It surely didn't help him when he had to throw his fight against Comedian so that he could have PREP time. I guess his superior processing power only works when it wants to.
Also, you keep harping on this one single feat and still fail to realize how common place it is. To put it bluntly, for a guy like Batman it's EASY.
Pre 52 Batman has his share of truck load of feats that eclipse it.
Even New 52 Batman.
But here, let me show you yet ANOTHER "bullet" feat that blows Ozy's completely out of the water by sheer volume of obstacles encountered and ease displayed in doing the same thing with much better effect.
He didn't throw the fight with Comedian so he could have prep time and beat him later. He had no idea he would ever have to fight him again, but he didn't want to or need to kill him, and they were once team mates. Ozy just wanted to gain intel on Comedian, and keep it in case he would ever need it later. He didn't decide mid-fight that he was going to sandbag and gain intel on Comedian. He decided that before they started fighting.
If the feat was so common place, then you would've shown me something that is equally impressive. You keep showing me these bullet timing feats, but not bullet catching feats. It is obvious that my opinion on this issue differs from yours, and there is no further point in arguing it. We will just have to let the voters decide which they think is more impressive.
You also never mentioned the feat I provided where Ozy dodged machine gun fire that was coming from directly behind him, when he didn't know anyone was there. That is because Batman doesn't have a bullet reaction feat that impressive.
ANY marksman will tell you that it takes just about that amount of time to properly squeeze a trigger on a target.
You still don't get it. It does not matter how strong you are. The whole point of "tightening" (as described in the scan itself) or squeezing the trigger is to allow for that shot to actually surprise you as you squeeze it because your intent is in having your gun aimed at the target the which is why you don't simply just pull it which will cause a few inches of sway in the trajectory which keeps multiplying the further away you are from the target (in this case 10 feet according to what you told me).
It is pretty irrelevant whether he is using a machine gun or hand gun. In fact, it's more imperative that you follow the squeezing method with a machine gun since your gun WILL recoil from the initial burst which means your other shots will be well far off from target.
Judging by the way Comedian was holding that machine gun (hip fire), he would have to bet on hitting him with his first burst which explains the choice of the word "tightening" utilized by the author.
Regarding the Shotgun/Batman Comment: A man that clearly wanted to kill him. Even if he has normal human reactions, it is still hell of impressive.
Imagine aiming a gun at somebody pointblank and as you think that you are pulling the trigger on them, you end up shooting your own foot because of how fast they were in bringing that muzzle down 90 degrees to your foot. Batman's also kneeling in that post coming from a full standing position about a few feet away. That means he actually traveled that distance and went on to a crouch position while bringing down that shotgun before a grown bloodlusted man's finger could pull a trigger.
Don't you think Comedian is experienced enough with a gun that he knows what the hell he is doing? And that he knows how long to pull a trigger before firing it to allow for his accuracy to be on point? He isn't going to need much time at all to get a solid shot off from a hip-fire point of view. You're treating him like he hasn't killed hundreds of people, and has enough experience to pull that trigger quickly.
And regarding the Batman shotgun feat... You mean something like this?
How about Ozy being in virtually the same situation, and having enough time to disassemble the gun.
What? Just a second ago, you said Ozy will be getting intel on Batman on the fly thanks to his "super duper computation skills". Now you are telling me that this brain has an extended loading time? You either have a superbrain that preps on the moment or you don't. Giving me that feat proves that he needs to give his brain time to formulate a plan to take down someone like Comedian.
It looks like you are misinterpreting me again. Ozy has never fought Batman, and he wouldn't underestimate him. He would nerf himself to fight Batman in order to gain intel, as much intel as he would need, then he would figure out a way to defeat him. I don't understand how that isn't clear. It's not like after Batman throws 1 punch, Ozy will think "OK, now I know how to beat him." He would need to determine his technique, and any weaknesses he might notice. Then, after that, he could execute a plan to defeat him. That is exactly what I said about the Comedian fight. He sandbagged to learn how Comedian fights, and how he could beat him, then he could have used that knowledge to make short work of Comedian, but he didn't need/want to.
This is the type of guy Batman routinely tanks hits from.
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That's PIS. If Bane is a 10-20 tonner, then smashing heavy pieces of equipment like that into a normal human would absolutely kill him. Batman's armor doesn't provide much protection, and he is still just a normal human.
Elbow to the face. Ozy screams in pain. Yup, looks like a hit to me.
Comedian is several echelon's below Batman in just about every department even if they share a similar build. The feats that I have posted are testament to that claim.
Comedian was able to overpower Ozy, which plays right into Batman's judo/grappling game and he was also able to land a hit on him, Batman (as shown above in just about every scan) has got the speed in spades to land as he wants when he wants.
The only thing going for Ozy is his ability to be nimble. (which as you can see is not going to help him against someone with more impressive reaction feats than him)That one hit from Comedian was enough to bring him down. So we actually DO know that Ozy cannot stand a blow from Batman who has done far more damage which less powerful appendages.
Ozy was sandbaggingggggg. You know that! Ozy clearly states afterwards that he LET him win. If he didn't LET him win, he wouldn't have gotten hit or knocked down by him.
He has even dealt with assassins that have pin point accuracy with their blades.
Not just pin point accuracy but know exactly where to throw their knives in order to incapacitate you. And they carry a hell of a lot more than just 2 blades. :/
In Batman's fight with Talon, he only throws 1 knife at Bats (which hits him in the arm). Then Batman gets stomped by Talon, and only by luck is he able to survive. (The luck being that the fight was in a location he had extensive knowledge of, and yes I know that Batman was sandbagging at the beginning of the fight, but once he says "playtimes over" he still gets stomped).
Actually, he does. But I see absolutely no point in mentioning them here since they have no pertinence to this scenario. You have been giving prep feats that are heavily based on context and hold absolutely no relevance to this scenario. You are pretty much making huge leaps in assumption land as to what you think your character can do with prep.
I doubt it very seriously that Ozy is going to try to beat Batman with a remote control.
I mentioned the JL feat because those members that came after Batman were all BLOODLUSTED.
Batman survived them based on his prep. Ozy on the other hand would NOT have survived Jon if he wanted to kill him.
Batman does not need the prior knowledge, it's pretty much just adding salt to a wound at this point. With the prep given, Batman will easily build a box around Ozy's plan in the same way he has done so to genius level villains such as Lex, Joker and Riddler.
It is relevant in mentioning because it is his only prep feat, but it is so impressive that it is worth noting to see what his prep potential is. You saying that it is heavily based on context means nothing. All of Batman's prep feats against the league are based on context too. It works both ways.
Saying that Ozy wouldn't use a remote to beat Batman is nonsense. He didn't beat Jon with a remote either. He just showed Jon on TV why his plan needed to happen.
Batman wouldn't have survived against Jon either with prep. We don't know if Ozy could've survived against the league with prep, but Jon is WAY above any of the league, and would stomp Ozy and Batman even with prep.
Batman has built plans around those geniuses, but AGAIN, Ozy built a plan around an omnipotent being. Batman's prep feats don't match that. Even if Ozy only has 1, Bats doesn't have one that matches it.
That's all I got on this rebuttal. I'm running out of things to say since I have limited material to work with. Not sure how many more posts you want to do. It's just getting tough for me because I only have 1 novel and 6 issues to work with. While you have like... 120 issues to work with.
I think you are confusing what I'm trying to say about this feat. I'm not suggesting that the second and third panel occurred at the same time. I'm just assuming that the third panel happens immediately after the second panel, and in the second panel, he is just turned around far enough to see that Spectre is holding a gun to him. Right after this moment, the gun is fired.
Even if he was able to get his hand into position, that is extremely impressive. Ozy was only turned around far enough to see Spectre and her gun right before the shot was fired. That means he only had a fraction of a second to register the scenario, analyze the threat, and determine a course of action. That speaks to his brain processing speed.
And I have been telling you that it isn't impressive when compared to Batman's various feats when faced in similar and worst situation. I have already shown them.
What you also fail to realize is that it is actually A LOT harder to move a full human body out of the way of the trajectory of a bullet that it is to simply move your hand in front of the object to stop it. Anyone who has ever played dodge ball knows this principle. It's just physics.
Same applies in fighting. It's a lot harder to move out of the way of incoming blows than it is to simply put up your arms to defend.
I have quintessentially consistently demonstrated scans were Batman dodges barrages of machine gun fire, most of them coming from behind him where most humans would not be able to even perceive that threat.
Do you think there isn't any speed factor to catching a bullet? You're suggesting that as long as you know where the bullet will go, that you can just catch it like a baseball. If you are off by even a fraction of a millisecond, that bullet is going right through your hand. This feat isn't as easy as you're making it sound
Of course not. I sure as hell can't catch a bullet. I am telling you why it isn't impressive compared to Batman's numerous other feats.
When he is turning around he is just putting his hands up in a defensive stance, because he is unaware of what the threat is.
Wait what? So now you are saying that he caught that bullet based on pure luck?
Why would he even put his hand up and dive if he has no idea what the threat is? Surely he wasn't spooked by her looks.
BTW: I just defended your character against yourself.
Again, based on your logic, I could catch a bullet as long as I saw where it was coming from. Why aren't all street leveler's catching bullets if it is so easy?
Ummm...
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Trolling bullets has been done by lesser street levelers since the beginning of time.
Batting groups of bullets with a sword is even harder and it's been done before by lesser characters than Batman.
He didn't throw the fight with Comedian so he could have prep time and beat him later. He had no idea he would ever have to fight him again, but he didn't want to or need to kill him, and they were once team mates. Ozy just wanted to gain intel on Comedian, and keep it in case he would ever need it later. He didn't decide mid-fight that he was going to sandbag and gain intel on Comedian. He decided that before they started fighting.
I don't think you realize that you have inadvertently agreed with me. You simply changed the wording.
If the feat was so common place, then you would've shown me something that is equally impressive. You keep showing me these bullet timing feats, but not bullet catching feats. It is obvious that my opinion on this issue differs from yours, and there is no further point in arguing it. We will just have to let the voters decide which they think is more impressive.
I believe I already showed you plenty of instances of Batman actually blocking HIGHER caliber bullets without being slammed by the sheer force of them to the ground much like Ozy did in his one feat.
You also never mentioned the feat I provided where Ozy dodged machine gun fire that was coming from directly behind him, when he didn't know anyone was there. That is because Batman doesn't have a bullet reaction feat that impressive.
I am just going to pretend you didn't see the scans I provided for you.
*cough*
Don't you think Comedian is experienced enough with a gun that he knows what the hell he is doing? And that he knows how long to pull a trigger before firing it to allow for his accuracy to be on point? He isn't going to need much time at all to get a solid shot off from a hip-fire point of view. You're treating him like he hasn't killed hundreds of people, and has enough experience to pull that trigger quickly.
No. I am treating him like he belongs in a more "grounded" universe as you have described the Watchmen to be.
And regarding the Batman shotgun feat... You mean something like this?
How about Ozy being in virtually the same situation, and having enough time to disassemble the gun.
What? My whole point in showing the shotgun feat was to demonstrate how fast Batman is able to move just as someone is pulling the trigger on him from several feet away.
What you showed me pales in comparison. The man's gun is quite literally at arms length from Ozy.
Nevermind whether he disabled the weapon or not. From the moment Ozy grabbed the gun the man was already impaired from firing it.
He didn't just disable it before the man pulled a trigger since it would have been quite impossible to even try to do so once he had his hand on that gun and in that pose.
It looks like you are misinterpreting me again. Ozy has never fought Batman, and he wouldn't underestimate him. He would nerf himself to fight Batman in order to gain intel, as much intel as he would need, then he would figure out a way to defeat him. I don't understand how that isn't clear.
It's clear to me that Ozy won't be able to stand up to a blow from Batman.
It's not like after Batman throws 1 punch, Ozy will think "OK, now I know how to beat him." He would need to determine his technique, and any weaknesses he might notice. Then, after that, he could execute a plan to defeat him. That is exactly what I said about the Comedian fight. He sandbagged to learn how Comedian fights, and how he could beat him, then he could have used that knowledge to make short work of Comedian, but he didn't need/want to.
Except that is completely irrelevant here. Once Ozy is knocked out or disabled, the fight ENDS.
Batman is not going to leave him there and walk away to wait for Ozy to retaliate. Ozy ends up getting cuffed or restrained, left to the police to take care of.
That's PIS. If Bane is a 10-20 tonner, then smashing heavy pieces of equipment like that into a normal human would absolutely kill him.
I don't know if you haven't figured it out by now, but neither of these characters is even remotely close to being human. They are both fictional for a reason.
Batman's armor doesn't provide much protection, and he is still just a normal human.
Batman's armor provides a CRAP TON of protection. Enough to stop bullets without even stunning him. Batman is a fictional character and not a normal human.
And no, it is not PIS. It probably would be PIS if that were Ozy taking those hits and not Batman. This type of damage is pretty normal for Batman to absorb.
He has been thrown through brick walls again and again and gotten up just fine.
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He has seen explosions go off in his face and been fine to run afterwards.
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He has even taken blows from a being that stomped Superman.
Ozy on the other hand, is limited to obstacles that are closer to our reality.
Ozy was sandbaggingggggg. You know that! Ozy clearly states afterwards that he LET him win. If he didn't LET him win, he wouldn't have gotten hit or knocked down by him
He was trying to dodge and evade the Comedian's blows before then so your assumption makes no sense in nature. He got hit because he is very touchable.
In Batman's fight with Talon, he only throws 1 knife at Bats (which hits him in the arm). Then Batman gets stomped by Talon, and only by luck is he able to survive. (The luck being that the fight was in a location he had extensive knowledge of, and yes I know that Batman was sandbagging at the beginning of the fight, but once he says "playtimes over" he still gets stomped)
You are taking it out of context. The fact is, Batman would have "won" that fight once he did say that playtime's over if he had been fighting a living man (like Ozy).
Talon's altered physiology provided the opening he needed to kick him from the perch.
Ozy on the other hand will be easily taken out by Bruce if he gets him in a headlock.
Far as I know, Ozy is very mortal unlike The Talon who is practically a zombie.
Stomped how? Did you even read the comic?
Seems like he won to me.
Bruce Wayne was ambushed without his gear and zero prior knowledge about this opponent.
All he had was the environment to go of off which he used to survive and watch his opponent plummet to his "end".
It is relevant in mentioning because it is his only prep feat, but it is so impressive that it is worth noting to see what his prep potential is. You saying that it is heavily based on context means nothing. All of Batman's prep feats against the league are based on context too. It works both ways.
Prep potential means NOTHING if you cannot even at the VERY LEAST link it to an event in any story where he did something similar. Unfortunately for you, you can't.
All of Batman's prep feats against the league are based on context too. It works both ways.
Which as I stated in my original post, that was simply there to warn you that feats against beings that are classified as "gods" by comparison have been defeated under the preparation of Batman.
I brought up another prep feat into play that fits the scenario and explains in detail the sheer speed and refinement of his prep when he practically oneshotted Clayface.
Saying that Ozy wouldn't use a remote to beat Batman is nonsense. He didn't beat Jon with a remote either. He just showed Jon on TV why his plan needed to happen.
Batman wouldn't have survived against Jon either with prep. We don't know if Ozy could've survived against the league with prep, but Jon is WAY above any of the league, and would stomp Ozy and Batman even with prep.
Batman has built plans around those geniuses, but AGAIN, Ozy built a plan around an omnipotent being. Batman's prep feats don't match that. Even if Ozy only has 1, Bats doesn't have one that matches it.
LOL. Jon is not omnipotent. He is no more powerful than current Cap. Atom or even Current Darkseid by tells of the tape.
Had he been omnipotent he would not have been embarrassed by Ozy.
The point I was getting at is that this feat has NO correlation when fighting Batman. You have failed to explain how it is even relevant here. Not to mention he was able to do what you describe, with a hell of a lot more prep time than the time allotted here while I provided for you a feat that fits the general idea of the scenario.
That's all I got on this rebuttal. I'm running out of things to say since I have limited material to work with. Not sure how many more posts you want to do. It's just getting tough for me because I only have 1 novel and 6 issues to work with. While you have like... 120 issues to work with.
I was planning on posting more attributes for Batman but I can understand your predicament.
Closing Statements
Batman has been there, done that and better.
Batman is still too durable for Ozy.
Batman's headlock would have taken out any other mortal man.
Ozy's one bullet catching feat has been upstaged by Batman and others in the past.
@crushyourenemies: I don't really have anything else to say that I haven't said already. I'll just go to closing remarks and open for voting.
Closing Statements
- Ozy is one street leveler that Batman can't handle.
- He has incredible brain processing speed, and situational awareness. Batman's common tricks will not work on him.
- Ozy has superior reaction speed. He has caught a bullet, and dodged machine gun fire.
- Ozy will be able to allow Batman to fight him evenly in order to gain intel on him, and once he has the information he needs to defeat him, he will be able to force Batman to make a mistake, and take the victory.
- Ozy might not have the feats that Batman does against higher-level opponents (because very few exist in Watchmen) but based on what we've seen, I don't see any reason to think that he wouldn't be able to take them down as well.
Uff... Great match for both of you... @eyedcyou Great job at representing the awesome that is Ozy. But you havent shown us what he is able to do with only ONE HOUR of prep. And while you have shown he has the agility and even a strength edge @crushyourenemies has given us proof of Batmans armor quality and you didnt counter that point. Also, you could have pushed the bullet catching feat for a durability feat as well. CYE focused too much on trying to counter the speed feat. OFC. Dont get any of this wrong, you were both great.
Now CYE had better formatting, but he oversaturated with scans so it gets cumbersome to scroll and is tyring to eye, while Eye is kinda plain. I give a minimal level of importance to that, but should be taken into consideration when you are making these mile long responces.
this is a tough one but I'll narrowly give my vote to eyedcyou putting up a great fight with limited material at his disposal and still managing to hold on. crushyourenemies did great too. kudos to both
I vote for Batman and CRUSH. The feats that the Bat has available are simply too abundant. They were able to accurately portray Wayne's fighting ability, while I felt Ozy's limited feats didn't allow him to display the breadth of his combat prowess. Additionally, I thought Batman's suit was more impressive. Both debaters made good arguments, but in the end, it was simply the lack of Ozy comics that sank him.
I vote for Batman and CRUSH. The feats that the Bat has available are simply too abundant. They were able to accurately portray Wayne's fighting ability, while I felt Ozy's limited feats didn't allow him to display the breadth of his combat prowess. Additionally, I thought Batman's suit was more impressive. Both debaters made good arguments, but in the end, it was simply the lack of Ozy comics that sank him.
Usually I try not to quote on these as I like to give my own written opinion. But you took the words right out of my mouth, so I hope you don't mind me quoting you. And to be clear I cast my vote for CRUSH.
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