With the upcoming installment in the MCU, the debate of all time will take place with proof that neither Cap nor Bucky are going down as easy as most of you expect.
Represented by SupremeGenerationRepresented by Spector_Rand
Rules
Morals On
In Character
No BFR
Standard Equipment
Composite suits for Iron Man (No outliers ie. Igor or Veronica)
WS Gets all weapons used in the Highway Fight Scene
No prep
Perfect Teamwork for Team
Map
Challenge A Viner Rules:
Do not start extra arguments, post unnecessary scans/videos or interfere in the debate itself in any way.
Your vote should be decided based on the debating of the participants.
A reason for your voting choice would be greatly appreciated.
Regular posting/commenting is fine.
May the best debater win.
So, what happens when 2 mighty debaters are pit into an arena of multiple scenarios? You tell us!
@supremegeneration: wow glad you guys are doing this. Looking forward to the battle. Is Iron Man only able to use hand to hand and repulsers or can he use all artillery and fly?
@spector_rand Sorry for the longer-than-anticipated wait.
Captain America
Steve Rogers was a small and fragile young man before becoming Captain America. He was rejected from the U.S Army to fight in Europe during World War ll because of his health and physical issues. That is, until he met a German scientist named Dr.Abraham Erskine. Erskine offered Steve to be a patent of Project Rebirth which was an military project to create super human soldiers via the Super Soldier Serum for the U.S Army. Steve agreed to join and he went under the supervision of Colonel Chester Phillips, Howard Stark, and Agent Peggy Carter. Steve would eventually finally test the serum and it was a complete success. Right after the testing ,Abraham was assassinated by an Hydra spy and Steve captured him, but the spy killed himself before spitting out any information. Later ,Steve was used as a tool of propaganda to boost U.S citizens support of the war in Europe. Steve didn't want to be a propaganda tool, and decided to fight in the front-lines of Europe. He foiled many plans of Hydra led by Red Skull, but he would eventually be frozen in ice for 70+ years. He was finally uncover from the ice by SHIELD, and they recruited Captain America as a member of the Avengers.
Gear
Cap is sporting his shield.
That's it people, this is Cap.
A quick note:
Cap is more than capable of taking Iron Man's repulsors
Winter Soldier
"Bucky" Barnes was Captain America's trusted sidekick in WWII, before he fell to his supposed doom during a mission. Instead of meeting his end Bucky was found by Soviet Agents and was turned into The Winter Soldier, a legendary assassin that operated for over 50 years. Bucky has a cybernetic arm, is skilled in H2H combat, & he possess a wide array of tactical gear fit for any sticky situation.
WS sports his cybernetic arm
Sphere grenades
Rocket Launcher
His knives
A rifle
Submachine gun
A pistol
Initial Considerations
If Iron Man even tries to land, he will be taken down in h2h. Both Bucky's arm and Cap's shield are more than capable of denting IM's armor.
Cap and Bucky's perfect teamwork will allow for quick interchanging of the shield. It's not hard to use, even Hawkeye was able to throw it in AoU:
The shield will be both sides main defense. They're most likely to stick together for this. Both their minds are strategically wired, so Cap uses the shield as defense while Buck uses the multiple guns to annoy Stark. If that doesn't work, even while Stark shoots, Buck can use his rocket launcher.
The moment Stark is on the ground he's going to get demolished. Some of his armors have crappy durability anyways:
They definitely have the CQC advantage. A 4x amped IM barely stalemated Thor.
Tony Stark was once a rude, self centred genius, billionaire, playboy and philanthropist. After an extended stay in the wecloming arms of The Ten Rings terrorist organisation (yeah not really so welcoming) he became the hero known as Iron Man.
Powerful beyond measure, he's one of the big daddies of the MCU, having hung with the top dogs like Hulk and Thor (and beating them, depending who you ask ;).
With strength, speed, firepower and base durability all exceeding Cap and Bucky's, this battle will fall in his favour.
Initial considerations
First off, let me be clear I'll be keeping feats to a minimum here in this initial post.
Alright then.
Iron Man has the better striking and strength feats out of the two.
That right there is more impressive than both of the teams striking.
His durability is well above the teams capabilities. He has tanked shots from Thor, other armoured characters, tanked missiles and shredded an airplane wing just by hitting it.
His arsenal is really quite above anything the team can face. He has the ability to fire dozens of miniature rockets non lethally, with highly accurate targeting systems. The team simply cannot react to all of them and will be tagged.
Counters
If Iron Man even tries to land, he will be taken down in h2h. Both Bucky's arm and Cap's shield are more than capable of denting IM's armor.
I don't see how. Neither of their striking has an impact force close to a tank or Thor's striking. Tony avoided a tank missile after it was fired. A standard tank shell moves at 4,000 feet per second, and he avoided this after it was fired.
Cap and Bucky's perfect teamwork will allow for quick interchanging of the shield. It's not hard to use, even Hawkeye was able to throw it in AoU:
That may be the case, but Tony has reacted to objects moving faster than the speeds the duo can throw the shield at. On top of this, there is no guarantee the shield will do damage to him. It's unbreakable, that doesn't mean he can cut through any material.
They definitely have the CQC advantage. A 4x amped IM barely stalemated Thor.
The purported power amp has no bearing on his durability. It didn't increase the strength of the metals composing his armour. On top of this, it didn't actually amp his abilities, it just gave him greater power reserves.
Iron Man has the better striking and strength feats out of the two.
That right there is more impressive than both of the teams striking.
I'll take IM having superior striking feats any day, but not strength feats.
"More impressive than both the teams striking"
Motorcycle throw- the average weighing between 500-1100 poundsCap too can throw humans some distanceMultiple times he's shown itConcrete cracking
Now now, what have we learned? Cap and Bucky aren't to be underestimated. Even in terms of striking power, both Cap and Bucky have feats to show they can do a lot of damage.
His durability is well above the teams capabilities. He has tanked shots from Thor, other armoured characters, tanked missiles and shredded an airplane wing just by hitting it.
I wouldn't say it's well above the team's capabilities, but it is a bit above them.
Now, for this part I don't want to get into too much detail just yet especially since above I showed that both Cap and Bucky have the feats to say they can do damage.
His arsenal is really quite above anything the team can face. He has the ability to fire dozens of miniature rockets non lethally, with highly accurate targeting systems. The team simply cannot react to all of them and will be tagged.
One thing:
You say highly accurate systems, not necessarily heat-seeking or anything like that yes?
Cap's shield will have him covered and Bucky's arm has deflected bullets too.
Cap blocking multiple bullets
I couldn't find Bucky's scene of blocking the SHIELD guy's shots but here I have him dodging faster bullets:
Dodging bullets and pulls Falcon up
So really both Cap and Bucky have the potential to dodge (or block), and since Buck's gonna be doing distance shots Cap can always throw him the shield then get it back.
Underlined = Me
Italics = Spector
If Iron Man even tries to land, he will be taken down in h2h. Both Bucky's arm and Cap's shield are more than capable of denting IM's armor.
I don't see how. Neither of their striking has an impact force close to a tank or Thor's striking. Tony avoided a tank missile after it was fired. A standard tank shell moves at 4,000 feet per second, and he avoided this after it was fired.
While neither of us have the impact force of Thor's striking, they can surely be somewhere close to a tank shell... I never liked science as much as my other classes but let me try and see: Buck's arm can break concrete, and a tank shell is meant as a fight against trenches in WWI and other tanks. Tanks are made out of iron/steel. Metal is about as durable if not a little more durable than concrete, while IM was thrown off by metal. IIRC it also exploded, but I'm not going to touch that yet either. As for "tanking", it's a common misconception, he didn't even tank it. Tanking something involves feeling nothing from it, kind of like Cap tanked a bullet in the last WS fight. Tony was blown off course and landed hard, one could use that feat to say he survived a tank shot, but didn't TANK a tank shot. As for the dodge, that was close range and anyone would attempt to do that (though fail, but technically the armor did that via guiding systems since a regular human probably couldn't). I mean seriously, that feat is overwanked. IM has been tagged by slower things/opponents.
Cap and Bucky's perfect teamwork will allow for quick interchanging of the shield. It's not hard to use, even Hawkeye was able to throw it in AoU:
That may be the case, but Tony has reacted to objects moving faster than the speeds the duo can throw the shield at. On top of this, there is no guarantee the shield will do damage to him. It's unbreakable, that doesn't mean he can cut through any material.
Tony may have reacted to items faster, but has also been tagged by slower opponents. "On top of this" the shield can damage Iron Man.
It completely decimated this Iron Legion drone, which Stark designed as his 2ndary "Iron Legion"
Stark's drones are based off his Iron Man armors, and this here shows Cap's shield coupled with his strength completely shattering said drone.
They definitely have the CQC advantage. A 4x amped IM barely stalemated Thor.
The purported power amp has no bearing on his durability. It didn't increase the strength of the metals composing his armour. On top of this, it didn't actually amp his abilities, it just gave him greater power reserves.
Cap and Bucky still have the CQC advantage. Once more "on top of this" it didn't amp his strength/durability but more power reserves means he had amped Repulsors/thrusters. He had 400% so he could add more power to both aforementioned utilities.
To the argument:
Both Cap and Buck are a lot more agile than IM, not necessarily faster. One of the scenarios I see happening is Buck shooting IM's boots while he's shooting lasers at Cap (whom skillfully blocks them/tanks them like in AoU). This causes IM to attempt h2h and gets decimated.
Another thing that could happen is, since in-character, IM tries to bullrush. With most of his actual opponents (not fodder like Ultron Bots or Chitauri) he engages h2h/bullrushes (Thor, Killian, etc) and will usually get decimated. He tries that with Cap and Bucky together, and he gets owned.
Yet another thing that could happen is IM, for once, tries to play it smart and keep to the air. Cap and Buck can take cover behind the shield, or just give it to Buck since Cap has already been shown to take the repulsors. IM's arsenal is large but nothing neither Buck nor Cap couldn't take/taken before.
My main argument is since it's in character for IM to engage in CQC (Thor, Killian, Monger) then he will be decimated much like Killian broke most of his old Iron Legion suits.
I'm down with that bro. You ready for it though haha?
I'll take IM having superior striking feats any day, but not strength feats.
Strength doesn't play as much of a factor as striking does, and these two having greater strength isn't really correct. Tony pushed the turbine of the helicarrier at speeds so fast he was blurring.
Now, finding the exact weight for this will be hard to ascertain since we don't have concrete specs for the helicarrier.
So, I'm going to have a rough guess based on the rotor size of a helicopter. The average mass for a helicopter rotor is around a 1,500 (sourced below). The rotors on the Heicarrier are a good deal larger than those on a normal chopper.
Note* The composition of these rotors is going to be a bit vague. However, the rotors on tech much less expenxive and nowhere near as important are made of components like this:
The core structure of each blade consists of five stainless steel arms, called spars, which are surrounded by a fiberglass skeleton. The trailing edge of each blade is covered with a sturdy graphite composite material, while the leading edge is made of titanium. The titanium is strong enough to withstand brushes with trees and other minor obstacles, which is helpful in "nap-of-the-earth" flying (zipping along just above the contours of the ground). Apaches need to fly this way to sneak up on targets and to avoid attack. The rear tail wing helps stabilize the helicopter during nap-of-the-earth flight as well as during hovering.
Looking at this video here it appears that each individual rotor is around 2m high, at least 20m long and half a meter thick. Assuming they are made of the same material as a helicopter rotor, as the structure looks identical in form and in its internal workings, then we can scale them effectively. The average size for a helicopter is around 7-10m long, 30-50cm wide and around 10-20cm thick. So you can fit around 24-30 standard helicopter blades into one Helicarrier rotor. However, thats not an exact figure. The structure of the rotor means that there will not be exactly the same weight that would be equivalent to that many helicopter rotors. For the sake of fairness, cutting them down to half would be appropriate. This, at its worst, comes to 36, 000 pounds and at its best 45, 000 pounds. I'll use the bare minimum value here, so lets stick with 36, 000. Now, that equates to 18 tons. With around 20 of these rotors in there, Tony is looking at pushing 360 tons.
This could seem like a lot, but its actually consistent with other tech. The weight of an aircraft carrier is around 97, 000 tons. Imagine the size and weight of rotors in tandem with that.
A lot of this is conjecture and guesswork, but it shows that Tony is at least pushing a 100 tons at the worst.
He must also over come the inertial force to get it moving.
That puts him in a realm well above the duo here.
Note that this was Tony at max. His suit bombed out after this and he was paying no heed to energy reserves. A lot of this would have also come as a result of his speed, however he stil clearly outclasses them in strength.
"More impressive than both the teams striking"
Motorcycle throw- the average weighing between 500-1100 poundsCap too can throw humans some distanceMultiple times he's shown itConcrete cracking
Now now, what have we learned? Cap and Bucky aren't to be underestimated. Even in terms of striking power, both Cap and Bucky have feats to show they can do a lot of damage.
Sufficiently countered.
I wouldn't say it's well above the team's capabilities, but it is a bit above them.
Now, for this part I don't want to get into too much detail just yet especially since above I showed that both Cap and Bucky have the feats to say they can do damage.
To do damage? Not likely. Iron Monger was throwing cars around. Tony tanked the explosion of a bus. He's really been shown to take more than the team can dish out.
Two things
You say the rockets aren't lethal so why would they hurt the team?
You say highly accurate systems, not necessarily heat-seeking or anything like that yes?
Cap's shield will have him covered and Bucky's arm has deflected bullets too.
I stress the fact that the rockets are non lethal because Tony isn't going to casually kill his friends. However, non-lethal just means they wont kill them. The rockets have the potential to be lethal, but Tony can fire them so they hit areas that will not kill the duo.
(However, it should be noted that Tony would most likely kill the Winter Soldier).
Now, these missiles have been shown to having homing style accuracy. They can fire at multiple angles and there will be close to 30 of them coming at the duo. Their reaction time isn't good enough to block them all. Cap is hown in the gif you posted to fail at blocking more than three bullets fired at him and they were coming from a frontal assault. This missiles will be targeting areas designed to incap the duo, from multiple angles. There is no way they block them all.
I couldn't find Bucky's scene of blocking the SHIELD guy's shots but here I have him dodging faster bullets:
Dodging bullets and pulls Falcon up
So really both Cap and Bucky have the potential to dodge, and since Buck's gonna be doing distance shots Cap can always throw him the shield then get it back.
Both guys can dodge/block bullets coming at them from a fronatl assault, its true. However, Bucky had to get to cover while Steve failed at blocking that last bullet. He doesn't have casual bullet time reaction speed.
And the missiles won't coming from one direction. They'll be firing from every angle all at the same time.
While neither of us have the impact force of Thor's striking, they can surely be somewhere close to a tank shell...
Not at all. Thor's striking is well and truly above that of a tank shell.
In the above two images, Thor is hitting frost giants and sending them hundreds of feet. This means Thor's striking>>Tank Shell>>Winter Soldier's Metal Arm>Cap's strikingThor hits a car and sends it tumbling two dozen meters until it stops and hits another car, ceasing its momentum. Thor hits Hulk nearly 40 meters away with one strike, with enough force to destroy a fighter Jet. This is the same Hulk who no sold a helicopter crashing into him and took RPG's with less impact. Thor totally shatters a massive area with the shockwave of his attack. This pretty much shows how strong the dude is. I mean, he physically outclasses your team by such a massive margin. He did this casually.
And your trying to say strikes of this Calibre will hurt him?
Tony has without a doubt taken strikes that totally eclipse this.
The tensile strength of Concrete is 2-5 MPA.
The tensile strength of Titanium is 246-370 MPA, while Gold is 100 MPA. His suits are an alloy of the two, with lowest grade Titanium allow having a tensile strength of around 1000 MPA.
I never liked science as much as my other classes but let me try and see: Buck's arm can break concrete, and a tank shell is meant as a fight against trenches in WWI and other tanks. Tanks are made out of iron/steel. Metal is about as durable if not a little more durable than concrete, while IM was thrown off by metal.
The tensile strength of Steel is from 400-550 MPA and Iron is around 200 MPA, so they really aren't comparable.
IIRC it also exploded, but I'm not going to touch that yet either. As for "tanking", it's a common misconception, he didn't even tank it. Tanking something involves feeling nothing from it, kind of like Cap tanked a bullet in the last WS fight. Tony was blown off course and landed hard, one could use that feat to say he survived a tank shot, but didn't TANK a tank shot.
He was knocked off course by the tank shell and smashed into the ground. He gets up immediately and climbs out of the crater with no damage to the suit, let alone himself. It scratched the paint though. In my eye's thats tanking it.
As for the dodge, that was close range and anyone would attempt to do that (though fail, but technically the armor did that via guiding systems since a regular human probably couldn't). I mean seriously, that feat is overwanked. IM has been tagged by slower things/opponents.
You don't know if the armour used guiding systems or not. We only see him dodge the tank shell casually after it was fired.
The speed of a Sabot tank shell is roughly 4,000 feet per second. The speed of the average bullet is 2,500 feet per second. Dodging a projectile is more impressive than blocking it.
Tony may have reacted to items faster, but has also been tagged by slower opponents. "On top of this" the shield can damage Iron Man.
It completely decimated this Iron Legion drone, which Stark designed as his 2ndary "Iron Legion"
Stark's drones are based off his Iron Man armors, and this here shows Cap's shield coupled with his strength completely shattering said drone.
The drones however are not an Iron Man suit. They don't have his durability feats nor are they really relevant here. They are just stark tech. Their capabilities were clearly lesser than that of an Iron Man suit and were used exclusively for crowd control in the film.
In fact, the Iron Legion suits were damaged by an acid attack. If they were composed of the titanium alloy used in an Iron Man suit, they would not have been nearly as damaged as titanium is highly resistant to corrosives (source).
Cap and Bucky still have the CQC advantage. Once more "on top of this" it didn't amp his strength/durability but more power reserves means he had amped Repulsors/thrusters. He had 400% so he could add more power to both aforementioned utilities.
Yes he could have. However, he still tanked Thor's blows and he still threw him around using base physicals only. Tony doesn't need those other features to win, but he'll use them.
Counters to you argument
Both Cap and Buck are a lot more agile than IM, not necessarily faster. One of the scenarios I see happening is Buck shooting IM's boots while he's shooting lasers at Cap (whom skillfully blocks them/tanks them like in AoU). This causes IM to attempt h2h and gets decimated.
Yep, they are agile. However, that will make no difference. The sheer number of miniature incapping projectiles coming at the team and the many directions said explosives will coming from means they will get tagged and injured. Cap and Bucky can both be hurt by bullets. Miniature explosives will damage them.
You have shown nothing to indicate why Tony gets decimated in H2H. He's tanked shots from more powerful opponents. They literally can't hurt him. He, on the other hand, hits harder than either of them, and they've both been hurt by strikes from each other.
Another thing that could happen is, since in-character, IM tries to bullrush. With most of his actual opponents (not fodder like Ultron Bots or Chitauri) he engages h2h/bullrushes (Thor, Killian, etc) and will usually get decimated. He tries that with Cap and Bucky together, and he gets owned.
Ok a few things.
One, Iron Monger and Thor are above both these guys physically, so however well they fared is no indicator that the team will do the same.
Two, the bullrush Tony did on both of them actually let him damage them both and control the fight, so yeah. His bullrushes work on opponents more physically powerful than your team.
Tony will probably bullrush one of them. He'll fly them away while punching them, which will KO them. He then repeats the process on the other one.
Yet another thing that could happen is IM, for once, tries to play it smart and keep to the air. Cap and Buck can take cover behind the shield, or just give it to Buck since Cap has already been shown to take the repulsors. IM's arsenal is large but nothing neither Buck nor Cap couldn't take/taken before.
Neither of them have tanked missiles. Bucky hasn't tanked a repulser even.
My main argument is since it's in character for IM to engage in CQC (Thor, Killian, Monger) then he will be decimated much like Killian broke most of his old Iron Legion suits.
Iron Man totally outclasses them in all categories except agility and H2H. They cannot even come close to hurting him, let alone decimate him.
Side Note* You seemed really hung up on my use of the phrase "On top of this". Did this offend you in some way? If so my apologies it was not my intent.
My Tactics
Tony starts the fight by firing targeted miniature missile swarms at the team, aimed to incap. In this confusion, he bullrushes Winter Soldier (who he would have no issue killing) and puts him down via any of these options:
Punches him to death
Uni Beam through the chest
Tank missile
Lethal missile swarm
Lasers him in half
Breaks his neck
Drops him from a great height
He then returns and fires repulsers at Cap. Cap will use his shield to block them or he will take them head on.Tony will use this distraction to bullrush him and knock him out.
The team can't hurt him and he has too many ways to hurt them.
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