'As long as the concept of "winners" exists, there will also be "losers"
VS.
Shao Kahn
'Don't make me laugh.'
Combatant stats
Madara Uchiha
Shao Kahn
Height: 5.8 ft
Height: 7.2 ft
Weight: 71.3 KG
Weight: 181.4 KG
Birthdate: December 24
Birthdate: N/A
Debut: Manga chapter #370
Debut: Mortal Kombat II
Location
Open field.
Rules:
This is a CaV, and as such, it would be best to keep the debating between the two competitors.
Please be civil and try not to start a flame war :)
This is Reborn Madara with Edo feats as well.
This is Shao Kahn at normal power and no amps.
Default gear.
No prep, random encounter.
No knowledge.
Victory is by KO, incap or Death.
No BFR or BFD.
Starting points are at 100 feet, facing each other.
If you want to be tagged, feel free to say so.
If you have something to say to one of the debaters, don't do it on this thread, feel free to PM them if you feel that you ABSOLUTELY must.
There will be a total of four posts each, opening, two middle posts that will hold the bulk of the information, and closing remarks.
Voters must vote on who was the better debater, not which character you personally think would win, also, if your reasons for voting include something not brought up in the debate, it is not relevant for voting.
Voting is open to everyone, (except the debaters) if you're not on the voting list, you can still vote, as long as the reason for picking the winner is valid, it will be counted.
Welcome one, welcome all to this CaV between Madara, the reincarnation of Indra, and Shao Kahn, the emperor of outworld. A quick note before we start, this CaV may take a while to finish as school has just picked up again and I am trying to focus and achieve the best ATAR (it's an Aussie thing.. I think) possible. That being said, I will still attempt to upload consistently whenever I get the chance, now then, where were we.
Ladies and Gentlemen, meet Madara Uchiha:
Madara Uchiha was a legendary leader of the Uchiha clan. He founded Konohagakure alongside his rival, Hashirama Senju, with the intention of beginning an era of peace. When the two couldn't agree how to achieve that peace, they fought for control of the village, a conflict that ended in Madara's death. He rewrote his death and went into hiding to work on his plans to end world conflict. Unable to complete it in his natural life, he entrusted his knowledge and plans to Obito Uchiha shortly before his second death. Years later, Madara would be revivied, only to see his plans foiled before dying one final time. - Narutowikia
Abilities:
As most of you would be well aware, Madara has a plethora of abilities available for use, almost all of which could cause Shao Kahn a great deal of trouble, for starters, I will run a very, very basic overview into his Genjutsu, Taijutsu and Ninjutsu abilities.
Ninjutsu:
Ninjutsu covers basically everything under the sun, from lightning attacks to dropping meteors out of the sky, it really is up to the imagination as to what can be achieved.
Fire Release:
As an Uchiha, Madara is able to use the clan's signature fire style Jutsu, which launches an extremely powerful fireball towards the enemy, Madara is so adept at this that it took 5 separate water style Shinobi's to stop it, even though water is the perfect counter to fire style.
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Madara's attacks quite clearly cover a large area, and should prove difficult to avoid.
Wood Release:
Because Madara is merged with Hashirama's cells, he is able to utilise Wood based Ninjutsu, a skill very few people possess.
Madara is able to almost instantaneously create a forest capable of encompassing an entire battlefield, it also spawns numerous giant flowers all of which release a deadly toxin if breathed in.
As a result of his wood style, Madara is able to create multiple wooden clones of himself capable of fighting in his place, all of these clones are extremely powerful as they are able to use some of Madara's more intense Jutsu's:
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Madara is able to make 25 of these clones, and Madara implies that he is able to make more if he wishes:
"5 vs 1 is the perfect number to have some fun", implying that he could of summoned more had he wished but thought that a 5 vs 1 situation would be entertaining.
Madara also goes ahead and states that only he has the necessary eye techniques to see which one is real and which ones are clones here, I apologise but CV apparently didn't like the scan so it didn't let me upload it. This scan proves that if Madara summoned the clones, then Shao Kahn wouldn't know which ones were clones and which ones weren't, eliminating the possibility that he could just ignore the clones and rush straight at Madara, as he wouldn't know who to rush at.
That should do for his basic Ninjutsu skill, so lets mover on to:
Taijutsu
Taijutsu, literally meaning body technique, is pretty much everything Madara is capable of physically, being speed, durability, strength etc. Pretty much how good Madara is at fisticuffs, the answer? Very.
His casual strength is enough to send a Shinobi flying backwards into his team mates.
As a basis of speed he is easily able to dodge Gaara's sand:
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(this bit went in the wrong way, read from right to left) This doesn't look to impressive, how is dodging sand a good speed feat? Well, when you consider this, it gets pretty interesting:
This is Gaara's sand protecting him from an explosion AFTER the explosion had begun, why is this interesting? Well according to these guys, and these guys, (I know, there isn't too much info on this stuff) the average explosion initially travels at around 8000 m/s, with some people claiming that even the slowest explosions reach 2000 m/s, taking this into account, and the fact the speed of sound is 340 m/s, it is safe to assume that at BARE MINIMUM, Gaara's sand is capable of moving at almost Mach 6, with a more likely estimate being around Mach 23, now it's getting a little more impressive.
Moving on to less number heavy stuff, Skill wise, Madara is up there with the top dogs in the verse, easily. Madara was able to solo nearly an entire division during the great war:
Madara didn't fight all these people, just the ones directly in front of Gaara. Madara came in a little ways through the war, when the division was at about 10-20 thousand members, and he fodderised them, followed immediately by the 5 Kage themselves, who if you are unsure as to who they are, they are the leaders of the 5 villages, the people you don't wanna mess with.
Stamina wise, Madara was able to fight for 24 hours straight without rest:
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So the whole "Chakra will run out eventually, Naruto characters tire quickly" argument doesn't really apply to Madara.
That should do for basic Taijutsu.
Genjutsu
Genjutsu is a very touchy subject among the CV community, with many claiming that Genjutsu wouldn't affect people outside the verse as they don't possess chakra, citing this scan as proof of what they say:
I would love it if MKgod could let Genjutsu=TP for this debate, as it would make everything smoother for the both of us, but if he decides no, then allow me to preemptively defend it:
Meet Kaguya, the first person to have chakra, what's so special about her? Well, she put the entire world under Genjutsu, whilst she was still the only person with chakra. So this means that although the people didn't have chakra to be messed with, she still put them under Genjutsu, so there you have it, wether you have chakra or not, Genjutsu is still a threat.
Madara stops a Shinobi in his tracks with just a glance, fodder feats not your cup of tea? Well, lets move on to this then:
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Stops the Raikage, the extremely powerful leader of the hidden cloud with a single glance.
For the basics of Genjutsu that should do.
Alright, for an opener, that should suffice, if you're asking why I haven't shown any high tier feats yet, don't worry, I will.
I hope you guys will enjoy reading this debate as much as i'll enjoy writing it. I am eagerly await MKgod's reply, i'm sure this will be a fun and interesting debate!
Background info: Shao Kahn is the legendary ruler of Outworld, with his millenia of expericne he has aquired tremendous power and has a fearsome reputation as a brutal being, a conqueror who would have taken over earth realm several times now if not for the intervention of the omnipotent Elder Gods. He has deep knowledge in the black arts which has allowed him the ability to consume souls though to a much higher degree compared to someone like Shang Tsung.
Powers: Shao is by accounts a superhuman, he can tank magical attacks and physical blows that would easily kill a normal human, he is strong enough to rip off limbs and throw people high into the air one-handed and smash throw magical barriers with his mystical hammmer, he is super humanly fast to the point where he has no problems keeping up with teleporters.
Light spears: Kahn can channel energy into a shaft of light which he then launches at his opponent to impale them.
Hammer: kahn can summon his magical hammer out of thin air which he then uses to crush his enemies without remorse.
Fire balls: Kahn can fire green fireballs from his mouth or eyes which explodes on impact, scorching those it hits.
Shield: Kahn can create an enery shield which repels all attacks and renders him invulnerable for a short time.
Telekinesis: He can choke opponents in a telekinetic like manner.
Soul absorption: he can absorb the souls of his enemies, making him stronger in the process.
@mkgod: Alright, long wait but i'm ready to make a post, fair warning in advance this is gonna be an insane scan bomb so i'll try to limit it as much as possible.
Now, without further adieu, let's get on with it
Counters:
I only have one thing to counter since the intro was so short, and this is it:
a conqueror who would have taken over earth realm several times now if not for the intervention of the omnipotent Elder Gods.
The Elder Gods aren't omnipotent.
That is all, moving on.
All the Ninjutsu:
Since Madara has so many feats, i'll do Ninjutsu in this post, and Gen and Tai jutsu together in the next, but to be completely honest, i'm finding it difficult to imagine needing to prove his Gen and Tai jutsu prowess in order to beat Shao, but I guess we'll see what he can bring to the table.
Last warning, beyond here is a scan bomb the likes of which is not seen often.
Fire Release Prowess:
Madara's fire release is a heck of a lot better then the measly feat I showed in the intro, the true strength of the fireball is thus:
There are two separate fireballs created by Obito and Madara. They are so large that they aren't even visible in the midst of the battle, showing the sheer scale of their power. The fire was sending back many amped Jonin's, as well as a KCM Naruto.
Madara also has shown the capability to release burning ash in a large scale attack, which is pretty much AoE ash.. That burns.
Wood:
Prepare yourself for a lot of bad puns and suggestive language, so please not that when I say "Madara's wood" I mean the wood he uses in his Jutsu's.
Madara's wood is powerful enough to block an attack and almost instantly crush Onoki's wood golem. As a note of scale, Onoki's Golem was massive, easily, easily greater then 50 foot, probably pushing closer to 100.
Madara reveals he has the ability to use the wooden dragon:
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The wooden dragon is a Jutsu/summon powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with Kurama, the 9 tails, one of the most formidable creatures in the show.
The wooden dragon has been able to overpower both Kurama by himself and also Killer Bee in Bijuu mode.
We'll come back to wood style a bit later, namely, the wooden clones.
Sharingan/Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan
The Sharingan eyes are the reason Madara looks so cool. But that isn't the only thing they do, they grant the Uchiha very interesting, and OP, abilities.
Susanoo:
The Susanoo (or Susano'o, whatever you wanna use) is a mysterious warrior made out of energy that encompasses skilled members of the Uchiha. Not much is known about it, other then only the best Uchiha can wield it and that it is really, really OP.
It is a powerful ability of both attack and defence with many different forms.
The weakest form of the Susanoo, which is just the spine, is able to withstand a massive Rasengan from Naruto with no ill effects.
Madara then proceeds to effortlessly fodderise the Battalion.
Gallery
Susanoo blocks blows from the Raikage and the Mizukage's lava at the same time unaffected.
Remember the Wood clones I talked about in the intro? And how he can make 25+ of them at a whim? Well:
Gallery
Every single one of them is capable of equipping the Susanoo, which quite frankly I find a little unfair.
If you thought these feats were good, you'll be amazed by what is yet to come.
Gallery
Madara's Suasanoo is able to fully protect him from an explosion by the 10 tails so large it created a massive crater (later filled by the Divine tree) and caused multiple Tornado's to form.
Madara's Susanoo is also able to protect him from a combined sand coffin from Gaara and Shukaku and then break out of it.
Perfect Susanoo:
You thought that was all the Susanoo could offer? My my, how wrong you were.
The normal Susanoo has very few weaknesses, one of which is that the user is still grounded, thus meaning he can be attacks from the ground beneath him (not that Shao could do that anyway) but the Perfect Susanoo get rid of that weakness by growing legs and putting the user right at the head of the monstrosity.
Madara's PS is so strong that just the shockwave from a casual swing of his sword is enough to bisect 2 distant mountains.
Here is almost The PS' full power, but still. The air pressure caused from his swing is able to bisect as many as 5 nearby mountains with enough force that they are propelled into the air. Could you imagine the damage this thing could do if it actually fully connected with something?
This is starting to reach the upper limits of the PS' durability, it's able to protect Madara from a GIANT explosion point blank. See those lumps in the background? Yeah, they're mountains.
The Susanoo, if it wasn't OP enough, is capable of throwing giant Shuriken's and its own sword if need be.
Izanagi:
Madara has the ability to rewrite his own death at the cost of one eye.
Madara showed the ability to do this pre-death, and through his revival got both eyes back, so he can use this if he sees it fit. So, assuming Shao somehow does put him down, Madara can teleport behind him back to full health, just minus one eye, tough break, Shao.
Hax XP + 50
Level up
Eye upgrade unlocked
The Rinnegan:
Through the fusing with Hashirama's cells, Madara acquired the Rinnegan, the natural follow on from the Sharingan.
This grants him obscenely OP and unfair abilities.
These include the Preta path, which is the ability to absorb attacks, much like Shao's energy attacks.
Madara is able to absorb Onoki's particle style as well as the Mizukage's Jutsu simultaneously, and mentions that the clones can absorb attacks as well, albeit a little slower.
Madara has also been shown to be able to absorb Naruto's Rasenshuriken, but this feat is better imo.
Through the Rinnegan Madara can summon the Gedo Mazo, the incredibly powerful shell of the 10 tails. But in this fight it's ridiculously unfair so unless I really, really need to bring it out for whatever reason we can all just forget I mentioned it :)
The Rinnegan also allows Madara to summon giant Meteors out of nothing to reek havoc to his opponents.
These meteors are massive, completely dwarfing mountain ranges below, and it doesn't make it better to know that Madara can summon 2 of these, one on top of the other, and with the ease at which he can summon them, it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine that he can summon more if he wishes.
Limbo clone(s)
Limbo is a very special ability that Madara possesses, it's difficult to explain, so i'll allow the wiki to do it for me.
Using his Rinnegan, Madara is able to project shadows of himself into the invisible world known as Limbo (輪墓, Rinbo,Literally meaning: Wheel Grave), which is generally impossible to detect or visually perceive. The shadows can operate independently of the user, attacking and restraining target(s) or defending the original body from harm. With both his Rinnegan, Madara was shown producing up to five shadows. Madara's shadow was strong enough to repel all nine tailed beasts in a single instance, he is also capable of switching places with his shadows at any time. While to the naked eye, it appeared to be the act of an invisible force.[2]However, Naruto Uzumaki gained the ability to sensethe shadows' presence using his Six Paths Sage Mode, while Sasuke Uchiha was able to see the shadows perfectly with his Rinnegan.[3] Even when detected, the shadows are immune to most forms of attacks apart from attacks that include Six Paths chakra. Madara prioritises keeping the technique's mechanics a secret, to enable him to use it as his trump card.
So there you have it, invisible, powerful clones.
Sasuke confirming that physical attacks will not work on a Limbo clone.
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Here Madara uses this ability to knock around all the tailed beasts at the same time.
The instance Madara used thisLimbo clone he only had one eye, and thus, only had the necessary eye power to summon one of these clones, but through Madara's own admission, two eyes are much stronger then one, so we can safely assume that with two Rinnegans, as Madara would have in this scenario, he could summon 2, or perhaps even 3.
Alright, this has been an awful long break but hopefully everyone is still interested in this :)
Read up one MK lore before you make wrong statements like this, moving on
Ways for Kahn to counter all of your listed abilities for Madara:
Fire Release Prowess:
Shao kahn will tank it, less durable characters have taken fire balls to the chest without injury (Kintaro, Raiden)
Wood:
Wtf is wood going to do to Shao Kahn, ruler of Outworld, supreme conqueror of beings, the being who defied the Elder Gods? I question whether you are taking this thread seriously
Sharingan/Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan
I have read up on this and it seems as though this can be countered by someone skilled or fast enough. Shao Kahn is skilled in WAY more martial arts than Madara and since he can beat up Raiden who teleports at lightning speed and shoots lightning, he can out speed the sharingan like Lee did
Perfect Susanoo:
Shao Kahn can destroy it with his magic hammer, he has harmed a god with that hammer, Madara is no god
Izanagi:
Shao Kahn kills him again then and when he's blind, Madara will get rekt
The Rinnegan:
Hardly any of that is relevant, and Kahn has better soul stealing
Read up one MK lore before you make wrong statements like this, moving on
I honestly don't care for it, they're not omnipotent, I also don't care if it says they are on the wiki, because by the very definition of omnipotence, they are not.
If they were omnipotent, they wouldn't be scared of the one being, as they would be infinitely more powerful then it, in fact, they wouldn't even need to fight it. They could just erase it from existence. Also, the Elder Gods amped an attack and yet that attack was still unable to defeat the person who was attacked, that goes against omnipotence.
The Elder gods aren't omnipotent.
Shao kahn will tank it, less durable characters have taken fire balls to the chest without injury (Kintaro, Raiden)
To the chest. They "tanked" a small fireball to the chest. That is nothing compared to what Madara is capable of doing, as I have shown. Take that small fireball to the chest and times it by a thousand.
Wtf is wood going to do to Shao Kahn, ruler of Outworld, supreme conqueror of beings, the being who defied the Elder Gods? I question whether you are taking this thread seriously
Completely crush him. I take it you just read the title and didn't bother acknowledging the scans, so allow me to explain. Madara's wood summons/jutsu is/was capable of completely crushing a 75+ feet tall rock golem. I'd hazard a guess and say a giant creature made entirely out of stone has more durability then Shao Kahn does.
I have read up on this and it seems as though this can be countered by someone skilled or fast enough. Shao Kahn is skilled in WAY more martial arts than Madara and since he can beat up Raiden who teleports at lightning speed and shoots lightning, he can out speed the sharingan like Lee did
Sorry what? Did you just compare Madara's EMS to Sasuke's non developed base Sharingan? That is ridiculous. And even if that was a fair comparison (which it isn't) Madara still has a massive speed advantage over Shao Kahn. So he's not getting past the tracking that way.
Shao Kahn can destroy it with his magic hammer, he has harmed a god with that hammer, Madara is no god
It seems as though you need a reality check. Titles in different universes don't mean anything in other universes. Take, for example, God of War. Where almost every boss in the game is a "god", yet they are so weak it's laughable. Hermes, the "god" of commerce, transitions and boundaries, the messenger for the gods best feat was a house buster. A HOUSE BUSTER. That is what a GoW "god" can do. Raiden is in the same boat, just because he's a god in one verse, doesn't mean he's even close to that in another.
Shao Kahn kills him again then and when he's blind, Madara will get rekt
If by some miracle Kahn can take out Madara, forcing him to use Izanagi, I don't see how he'll take him down again. Tell me, how would Kahn expect Madara to appear behind him after he had just died? I'll let you think about it.
Hardly any of that is relevant, and Kahn has better soul stealing
So you're saying Meteors and Limbo clones are irrelevant? Okay then, whatever you say :)
No seeing how this helps your case really
You're not seeing how an invisible, hypersonic being that can't be hit by Kahn and has enough power to one shot all of the tailed beasts at once is helping my case? Okay then.
Taijutsu:
Now that that's out of the way, time to move onto some Taijutsu.
While blind, Madara was easily fast enough to Blitz Hashirama as well as Sage Mode Naruto. Sage mode Naruto is faster then KCM Naruto and was easily fast enough to dodge even the third Raikage's attacks, yet Madara easily manages to blitz him.
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Madara easily reacts and outmanoeuvres a sucker punch FTG from Tobirama and even calls him slow afterwards. In case you don't know what the FTG is, it's teleportation.
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Madara is able to tank a Rasenshuriken from Naruto, he's also been unaffected by blows from the Raikage as well as the Hokage.
Madara was also able to blitz a full battalion worth of Shinobi with no effort at all.
Genjutsu:
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Madara has Genjutsu powerful enough to basically create an entire world in it to fit his choosing. It resembles the Tsukuyomi in power and is very deadly if you fall to it.
Just one glance from Madara has the potential to end the fight.
Madara isn't a huge user of Genjutsu as he feels like he doesn't need to use it so this coupled with the Genjutsu he set on the Raikage and Kurama (9 tailed fox) are pretty much all he has.
Overview:
So all in all, it should now be known that Madara is at least Mach 29+ in terms of speed, which should be more then enough to outpace Kahn. He also has a multitude of Jutsu that is capable of downing Kahn, including but not limited to; Wooden dragon, fireball jutsu, deep forest emersion, hidden ashes and dust, Jukai koutani (wood release), Wood clone spam, Susanoo, Perfect susanoo, Susanoo shuriken, Izanagi, Meteor summons, Chibaku tensei, and Limbo clones. He can also just speed blitz him or put him into a Genjutsu then do whatever he wants to him.
So that's 29+ ways that Madara has of taking out Kahn. I wonder how many different ways Kahn has of taking out Madara?
So, basically, if Madara takes this fight seriously, it will be him with a perfect susanoo, 25+ clones all with Susanoo, a wooden dragon and a few limbo clones take Kahn, sounds like fun :)
@just_banter: Bruh, LOL!, I love MK more than I do Naruto by far (I love Naruto a lot, I'm just saying), but you need to end this thread. LOL! This isn't a fair CAV, as it seems that @mkgod doesn't know how to make a clear case with feats and such, so I'd say you win by default.
To all of you MK haters out there, this isn't over, I still have a couple of posts left which will remove all doubts that Kahn wins. Tomorrow s judgement day for @just_banter
To all of you MK haters out there, this isn't over, I still have a couple of posts left which will remove all doubts that Kahn wins. Tomorrow s judgement day for @just_banter
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