However I do not think he is on par with Bullseye (not that you were claiming he was away).
Agreed, but Nightwing nor Batman were too agile for him to handle in close range, and both characters are disputably more agile than sir Lester.
Now please excuse me while I tell you why context is so damn important :)
Dodging multiple cards thrown by Gambit and getting to the top of a building at the same time as Gambit despite giving him a head-start:
First and foremost, this match began with Gambit already very fatigued. Furthermore, the second immediate factor was it started with Bullseye stabbing Gambit in the chest. Needless to say, he wasn't in the best condition for this match and to top it off, I've always had gripes with this one. I don't understand how he can get wrecked by Lester (in a match where his explosive cards ricochet and don't explode when blocked...) then stalemate Daredevil in hand-to-hand. It's just rather inconsistent in my eyes.
So I don't think you'll argue with me that Bullseye has Bane outclassed in the agility department.
If I thought Bane had superior speed or agility I would have mentioned it in my first post. I didn't ;)
Another good demonstration of speed is kicking Elektra off the top of a building but still arriving at the bottom before she hits the ground. He even comments that she was slow:
This is another fight where there's much more context than what's provided in the panels. Elektra has been held in a facility before this and is in terrible condition. Upon escaping, she bumps into Bullseye -- who proceeds to toss aside his machine gun and toy with her -- further evidence of his arrogance in combat.
Again Bane dodging Batman's projectiles in an impressive display of speed and agility but i'm confident when I say that Bullseye throws his projectiles much harder and faster than Bruce as well as being more accurate:
Indeed. As I stated in my post, it was just showing him dodging projectiles from a confirmed marksman. I never stated Batman is more agile than Bullseye nor did I intent to. Still, there's no disputing Batman's own accuracy and Bane has dodged his projectiles to a handful of times, so it's absolutely worth noting in my eyes.
If you needed anymore convincing about the speed of his projectiles he has been able to tag both Daken and Spider-man. Granted Daken wasn't expecting Bullseye to attack him but given Daken's reaction speeds in the past this is still impressive.
I don't see how tagging Daken while he's sitting in a chair during a meeting is impressive, especially when Daken is purposely manipulating the team and trying to make Lester look like the crazy one. Playing the victim only further supports his goal. Plus, it got him laid ;)
I love the spider tracer feat and shared it immediately when it came out in previews for that issue. It's solid, but like you said, Spidey is tattered and torn. Still, it's nothing I wouldn't expect from Lester.
a tooth-pick from 100 yards a bigger target just makes things easier.
This feat is complete nonsense to me. His non-lethal uses of toothpicks vastly outweigh the one insane feat written by Kevin Smith (the interrogation, Identity Disc, vs Yakuza).
I do agree with this in a certain sense. If the environment was open poor ol Bane would most likely be peppered with projectiles before he knew what was happening.
Indeed. An open environment with ample starting distance would be a match clearly in favor of Lester. Thankfully, that's not the case here ;)
In this environment Bane has cover and won't be forced to run into Bullseye's line of fire. However although it does limit Bullseye's options it does open up another. It is not uncommon for Lester to ricochet his projectiles around in order to his his target:This is something that would most likely catch Bane off guard. He would not expect a knife to fly past him and then come back. It has tricked people in the past so I don't see why this would not be a possibility for Bane too.
It is a possibility. After all, keep in mind I think this is, at best, a stalemate to trivial victory for Bane at best. To say anything else would be vastly under or over estimating either character. However, I hardly see this as a shock to Bane and hopefully my slew of pain tolerance feats support this. I think unless the ricochet shot is going to the head or neck, it's not going to slow him down a significant deal.
Speaking of pain tolerance, I forgot to share his "brick torture" feat (Bane remains conscious after being hit by over 500 bricks). Bullseye generating this amount of damage to Bane seems incredibly unlikely, but I'm sharing it since you said you're doing this primarily to learn about Bane:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture1.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture2.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture3.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture4.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture5.jpg
Regarding his attitude, of course he has examples of immediate kills, but for the most part (and I can say this having read a vast majority of his appearances) Lester is overly arrogant and that's something I always take into account in his battles. Were he always focused on killing, I'd tend to give him at least 2-3 more wins that what I usually offer. But such isn't the case with him. He's toyed with Moon Knight, he's toyed with Elektra numerous times, and hell, he's even toyed with Daredevil on quite a few occasions.
Closing the distance will be very difficult for Bane to manage without getting tagged.
I never stated he would. In fact, I stated it's likely that Bane will be tagged before making it close range. That's precisely why I offered a wealthy amount of Bane's pain tolerance feats, hopefully proving that, unless it's a lethal shot (which isn't common for Lester immediately), Bane can tolerate it and still remain combat effective. Once he makes it in close his superior stats and skill will likely spell game over for Lester.
going into a close combat situation is not his preferred MO.
That's news to me. While he excels at range, the only time I recall him being above close range combat was his fight with Captain America or Spider-Man on the rooftop --- and that's because it's friggin Captain America with a shield blocking all of his attacks, and with Spider-Man, Lester already tagged his target (same logic holds true for Crossbones encounter). Aside from that, he's always had no gripe engaging with the vast majority of his opponents in close range. I see no reason whatsoever for him to avoid close combat with Bane. His history speaks against thinking that.
In that last scan it also shows that despite Bullseye liking to toy with his prey he does still aim for weak spots like the eyes and if DD hadn't had his club Lester's teeth may well have blinded him.
Not relevant to the debate but adding anyway: Bullseye does that because he knows Daredevil can handle it. Bullseye has no intention of ever quickly or easily killing/defeating Daredevil. IIRC, he plainly states in DD 181 that a headshot would be "too quick" or "too easy." I can go fetch the issue to confirm exact dialogue later. This is also why he walks away (or tries to) from DD in the boxing ring and doesn't take advantage after hitting him with a grenade early on. Hell, after the paper airplane he ties him to a giant crossbow and fires him out to sea! Oh, classic era, you're so funny. Again, not relevant to the debate, just adding that bit of info in case you didn't know :)
I will not contest the fact that Bane is physically stronger.
I'd certainly hope not!
Of course you might say "If Bane does managed to close in whats to stop him beating Lester and breaking him like a twig?"
Please shoot me if I ever say that. :P
The answer is his skeleton. Bulleye's bones have been laced with adamantium so his tolerance to blunt force trauma should be high. "Breaking" Bullseye will be a lot harder to do than breaking the Batman:
I'm pleased you brought up the adamantium lacing (which is only confirmed in his spine, skull and fists). It's something that many people tend to overlook. While Bullseye has some pretty solid pain tolerance feats, he doesn't have anything to prove that Bane would have difficulty knocking him out or incapacitating him given the opportunity. Despite the lacing, Daredevil has still been able to drop Lester (countless times, sadly) with nothing more than his fists and feet. At the 2 ton strength range, Bane will have no issue at all harming Lester. The lacing on the fists does indeed mean he hits harder than before, but this hasn't proven to be enough to justify Bane being significantly fazed by them, especially since Daredevil withstood it.
Due to his speed and agility should this come to a close combat situation Bullseye is perfectly capable of putting some distance between them in order to regain the upper hand. This shows how fast he can react in a confined situation:
Again, I'll cite back to Nightwing for this one. That match was written by Chuck Dixon too, the man who wrote Nightwing's earlier run, so it's not like he lacks knowledge on the character. Wait a tick, just realized I didn't provide those scans, so here ya go in case you've never seen 'em. Again, off venom:
Round 1:
Round 2:
This would indeed be a close fight and I won't try to hide that Lester can be arrogant but also does get his act together as soon as he realizes he's being stupid and goes in for the kill
But in this case, it could be far too late for him (similar to the situation with Crossbones, if you will... except Bane has no reason to try to slowly kill Lester). If Bane gets his hands on him (similarly to above), it could spell certain doom for Bullseye. And frankly, that's not a feat I view as impossible. Difficult? Sure and that's why I think this is a solid match, but absolutely possible and hopefully my scans have proved this (his underestimated speed, agility, skill and absurd pain tolerance).
as I don't see Bane taking Bullseye down in the first round of h2h (due to Bullseye's speed and his re-inforced skeleton)
The skeleton might save his brain from a bullet, but the way he's written, it's not like he has Wolverine's durability to blunt force. I've never seen it render him as more difficult to knock out. Daredevil has tragically even one-shotted him.
Lester should break away, realize he has to stop jerking around and once he breaks away he will most likely try and stay away from Bane in h2h meaning Bane is going to have to try and chase him down and against some of Bullseye's talents this is easier said than done.
Certainly possible, but this is all banking on Lester realizing he's acting stupid and at this point, Bane is already directly on him in close range.
To summarize, this is an incredibly close match. Lester's accuracy is sure to tag Bane, but Bane has dozens of feats proving he's more than durable enough and has the pain tolerance required to take a wealthy amount of damage before dropping. This environment combined with his underestimated speed, agility and combat intellect means he'll be able to close the gap (albeit taking some hits) and engage Lester in close range. Here, his superior skill and strength combined with Lester's arrogance will likely be key for victory. Again, I only see this battle as a stalemate to a minor edge (5-6/10). I honestly think saying either combatant takes more than that would showcase a lack of knowledge on both combatants.
And if all else fails Bullseye can unleash the paper plane of doom!!!!!
I have no regrets introducing that feat to the community :P
Oh, and if we're going to really to bring the lulz, BANE BROKE DA BAT, AND DA BAT BROKE BULLSEYE IN DA CROSSOVER.
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