CaV: Joygirl (Sparx) vs. Sophia89 (Khan) -- JOY WINZ!

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Joygirl

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#1  Edited By Joygirl

Joygirl -- Mercy Sparx

No Caption Provided

vs.

Sophia89 -- Kamala Khan, AKA Miss Marvel

No Caption Provided

------------------

  • Mercy gets 1 day prep with Hank, and her standard angel-killing equipment that she has already used in the past. This prep occurs prior to the battle.
  • Both Kamala and Mercy get 30 minutes of battlefield prep.
  • In character.
  • Battle takes place here, 100 feet apart from each other.
No Caption Provided
  • Win by death/KO/incap.

Ready!

Steady!

Go!

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waezi2

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Looks like Joygirl win, if you ask me.

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Joygirl

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@waezi2 said:

Looks like Joygirl win, if you ask me.

It's a debate, it's not open for votes yet. :O

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SMXLR8

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#6  Edited By mickey-mouse

@joygirl: Why does one character need extra prep?

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Joygirl

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@lukehero said:

@joygirl: Why does one character need extra prep?

Because Mercy actually uses prep and sets traps, she's a gear-based character. Kamela won't benefit from prep since she doesn't use it, it has no purpose for her.

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waezi2

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laflux

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Can Sparx give tailjobs?

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Joygirl

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@waezi2 said:

@smxlr8: What is CAV?

It's an acronym for "Challenge A Viner." Essentially, sophia89 and I set the stage, both choose a character to debate for, and try to prove which one wins. When it's over, the good citizens of ComicVine vote for who put up the best debate.

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mickey-mouse

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@waezi2: You don't hang out in the battle section huh?

It's when two debaters face off in a battle, then voters come and decide the winner of the debate.


Challenge A Viner

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waezi2

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#12  Edited By waezi2

@lukehero: Relatively new. Just recently started making battles.

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Joygirl

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@laflux said:

Can Sparx give tailjobs?

So far she hasn't but her tail is fully prehensile, so it's safe to assume she could if she wanted to.

She actually whipped Vlad's ass with just her tail.

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ShadowX

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This should be exciting I like both of the combatants style of debate :3

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Joygirl

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#20  Edited By Joygirl

@sophia89:

*clapclap* Excellent! So it begins! :3

As you said, our characters are really unknown, and mine is even more unknown than yours (currently sporting like nine or so issues, of which I have read five, as I can neither afford nor pirate the new mini).

That said, my character is Mercy Sparx. She's a demon from Purgatory, and her job is to hunt down fallen angels and take their halos (which effectively kills them). Mercy is very good at what she does, and while angels have a consistent strength and flight advantage over her, she uses her incredible skills and her equipment (created for her by her human friend, Hank) to eventually defeat them.

No Caption Provided

So, what are her powers? Mostly just enhanced physiology, with a dash of prehensile tail, a sprinkling of combat skill, a drizzle of advanced equipment, and floated with just straight up being a badass bitch.

To break it down;

She's Strong.

1) Knocks a grown man out with a flask. 2) Rips a traffic meter out of the ground and throws it like a javelin. 3) Lifts and throws that thing. 4) Dents a concrete wall with a dude's head.

She's Fast, Flexible, and Agile.

1) Dodges automatic gunfire from an angel. 2) Does that. 3) Dodges more gunfire, this time from an actual named character (Cassie Hack). 4) Easily catches Vlad's signature weapon and tosses it back at his feet, unimpressed.

She's Durable.

Tanks a truck.
Tanks a truck.

She was unharmed except for a minor limp that didn't badly hinder her, here. She went the entire rest of the issue and was fine the next day.

Now, since I don't wanna blow all of my feats right away, let's go to...

The Prep Phase

Now, as you can see, Mercy doesn't always look exactly the same -- she has an alternative form, a disguise that she uses when hunting angels. After all, showing up with horns, a tail, and red skin tends to be a dead giveaway. This disguise may not help much given that Kamala isn't entirely sure who she's going up against, but it may do something, considering that Mercy's civilian guise isn't costumed or in any way outwardly inhuman/"super." Given that Kamala is such a geek and fangirl, she may find seeing what appears to be a run-of-the-mill punk chick rather underwhelming for her epic battle.

In addition, Mercy is no stranger to prep. While most of her hunts involve her finding her target, talking to them, luring them away, and then attacking, she has been known to improvise against foes who are already expecting an attack.

Knows how to set traps, and is very patient.
Knows how to set traps, and is very patient.

Will this be enough to catch Kamala? Likely not. Mercy isn't a prep genius. But there's definitely a chance that it will grant her an advantage early in the fight, startling and briefly disorienting her target.

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HigorM

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#21 HigorM  Moderator

@sophia89: @joygirl: nice to see some unusual characters in CaV's. Tag me for votes :)

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deactivated-5dace575ce059

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@shadowx said:

This should be exciting I like both of the combatants style of debate :3

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Joygirl

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deactivated-5dace575ce059

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@joygirl: quick question did she knock out all those angels LOL

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Joygirl

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@killerwasp: Nah that's just a cover, she can't beat that many at once, she takes them down one at a time.

She has killed a friggin' ton of 'em though, she killed like 4-5 within the mini and it was implied she'd been killing them long before that.

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deactivated-5dace575ce059

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@joygirl: Ah just curious is all. i was gonna say i see all their halos still lol.

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Joygirl

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#29  Edited By Joygirl

@sophia89:

The Prep Phase:

So is Kamala going to change to cockroach size, or is she going to sit in a lawn chair with binoculars? :3 She can't do both very efficiently.

In cockroach size, yeah, she'd be able to see the trap -- but there's always the possibility of her being stomped on since Mercy's going to be keeping a lookout. In the time she worked for Sandolphon she took down twelve rogue angels, and it was strongly suggested that she had been doing it for quite some time before that (even telling Mr. Suit that she had taken on bigger than him -- though she may have been lying, as he seemed to be a great deal more powerful than her). She's a hunter to the end, with a lot of skill and experience, and I'm pretty certain that if she sees a bug-sized girl her first instinct's gonna be to stomp it.

If Kamala decides to sit and wait to see how things play out, then we may be at an impasse until one or the other decides to move away from hiding and start something. In which case, it's a matter of who's the more patient and the less impulsive.

As we have both stated with the trap, it's not going to kill or harm Kamala (since all we've seen of Mercy's traps is some kind of spring-loaded net). However, that doesn't mean it won't distract her. Even if she shrinks or grows out of it she's going to have to do so, which will give Mercy the chance she needs to attack and start the beatdown.

Combat:

Grabbing Mercy might... not be a great idea.

Y'see, while she's a bad bad girl on her own, it's her toys that make her really dangerous. And Mercy never goes anywhere without her Hellfire Zippo.

No Caption Provided

Can be used as a regular lighter, or be used to totally barbecue angels/Kamala. >:D

Also, as far as durability goes, I forgot I had a scan of exactly what happened after that truck hit her, and it may give you a better idea of the damage she endured (and then walked away from).

No Caption Provided

As you can see, Mercy's pretty f***ing well totaled in this scan and is in a puddle of her own blood, having crushed the concrete wall with her own face. She gets up, walks away, and immediately proceeds to battle an angel. A little crunching, while she may not like it, isn't going to keep her down.

Also, you say Kamala will crush her with one hand -- besides bending those steel girders, what has she done that suggests she is strong enough? Mercy's strong enough to rip a parking meter out of concrete, ripped what appeared to be a heater or radiator out of a rooftop, and also beats this Slasher to death with a motorcycle.

No Caption Provided

So right off the bat, when Kamala grabs the 'henchman" biker girl and thinks she can act tough, she's gonna have to deal with a pissed-off Mercy who's gonna blast her with a gout of flame, pry herself free, and proceed to start pummeling Kamala into a heap of reconstructing goop.

That, of course, is if the trap doesn't work, if Kamala gets the jump on Mercy (unlikely), and gets the first attack (once more, unlikely, since I find myself doubting that Kamala's "gamer reflexes" can compare to a devilgirl who can evade automatic gunfire and snatch Vlad's machete out of the air.

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Joygirl

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@sophia89 said:

@joygirl: o.k you are getting my reply tomorrow. But first i got to counter this point

So is Kamala going to change to cockroach size, or is she going to sit in a lawn chair with binoculars? :3

why not both

:p
:p

Because cockroaches can't use binoculars. >:3

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oceanmaster21

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#33  Edited By oceanmaster21
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Joygirl

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@sophia89:

So we agree that Kamala will end up falling into Mercy's trap. Excellent.

Now, we also agreed that the trap won't actually hold Kamala for any relevant length of time, since she can just grow or shrink out of it. But that doesn't mean that the trap won't benefit Mercy -- as I showed in my prep scan, Mercy sets a trap, waits patiently, and then springs out like a spider and immediately attacks. Even if Kamala escapes the trap immediately, Mercy gets an artificial ambush on her and can use her far greater speed to start laying a beatdown before Kamala even knows what's happening. While this circumvents the scenario of Mercy tricking Kamala with her civilian guise, it's worth it, and we still have that on back-burner in case you think of a reason Kamala shouldn't fall into the trap. ^-^

To answer your questions about Mercy's weapons:

As you know, she's a very new character (I just got the new issues though and am going to read them today ^-^), so we don't have a lot of very precise knowledge on her weapons. The Jaws of Death are fired from a gun-like apparatus rather than thrown, so it's safe to assume it travels at speeds similar to a harpoon but probably slower than a pistol (due to the weapon's weight).

The Hellfire Zippo just unleashed a flamethrower as soon as Mercy flicks it open, so it's all about Mercy's hand-speed (which it's safe to guess is very high, considering her other reflexes times and speeds). As for whether or not it's fire or hellfire, it's never explicitly stated besides in the item's actual name (the Hellfire Zippo). However, we can also take into consideration the kind of equipment Hank is capable of making, which is primarily metaphysical or otherwise extremely highly advanced in nature (he's been shown to have unholy water, create sound frequencies capable of distracting/causing pain to angels, and also creating a machine that can be placed over a halo to paralyze an angel by fitting a pentagram inside of it). Considering the things Hank has created, it's very safe to reach the conclusion that the Hellfire Zippo is, in fact, metaphysical in nature, and can also be used during a grapple as Mercy needs only flick it open.

Strength vs. Strength

So Kamala was able to hold up herself and Wolverine with one outstretched arm, with some difficulty. Impressive, though just holding onto something tends to be a lot easier than actually lifting or using it. You showed Kamala holding up 400 pounds -- not bad. She also complained that Wolvie was heavy.

After a quick googling, a motorcycle weighs between 500 and 1,100 pounds. If we lowball Mercy and assume that her bike was as light as they come (500lbs.), that's already heavier than Kamala + Wolverine -- and rather than just holding it, she beat a guy to death with it, seemingly without breaking a sweat and without complaining about how heavy it was. So, Kamala could barely hold Wolverine up with her outstretched arm -- do you think she could lift him up and beat someone with him? Because even if she could, she still isn't as strong as Mercy.

Grappling with Mercy -- not gonna happen

Since Mercy will be aware of Kamala before Kamala's aware of her, and is also significantly faster, more agile, and more skilled, the likelihood of Kamala even getting her hands on the demon is highly unlikely. Even if she does, in all likelihood Mercy's just gonna break out because she's stronger. Even if Kamala grows and becomes stronger than Mercy, the Hellfire Zippo will burn her hand to a crisp and Mercy's gonna get out anyway.

Crushing Mercy, quite frankly, isn't going to work.

Your move.

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Joygirl

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#36  Edited By Joygirl

@sophia89:

Oh, by the way, I got confirmation on the Hellfire, in #4.

No Caption Provided

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Joygirl

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@sophia89: Errr, no. Hellfire. ^_^ Fire from Hell.

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@sophia89: Cute, I'll catch this tomorrowz. :D

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Joygirl

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#43  Edited By Joygirl

@sophia89:

Weaponry

Aw man, you're seriously gonna use the "dodges lasers" argument against me? Do you think I was born yesterday? Look at my post count. I've been around the block! I know that G.I. Joes and random Thundercats have been dodging lasers since the early 80's. Lasers aren't faster than bullets, they seem to be slower. So both Kamala's "dodging lasers shot from laser guns," and her "gamer reflexes," aren't really gonna convince me that she's a bullet-timer. If that were the case, side-characters like Weasel would be the terror of the battles board.

I'm not that crazy about the Jaws of Death anyway, it's used for taking down wings so it won't be of that much use against Kamala anyway besides annoying, distracting, or briefly injuring her. Still, Mercy has her Hellfire Zippo, her Glue Gun, and her Halo Knuckles which appear to amplify Mercy's striking power by several times. Mercy still has the equipment and the toys to really complicate things in this scenario.

Kamala's Growing Ability

If Kamala can grow to building-size at a whim... then why doesn't she? Why did she drop Wolverine when she could have just grown larger/stronger and held him up? Why doesn't she grow to giant-size at the beginning of every fight? Why does she ever even bother being normal size when she can be large or small whenever she wants? If this girl is like Mr. Fantastic + Hank Pym, then why is she still a street leveler? Riddle me this, Batman. Riddle me that.

So what's the trick, what am I not getting? Does she get fatigued from it? Does it strain her powers? What does it do? What's the reason as to why she's only done it once or twice? If it's just that it isn't in character for her, well, this battle is in character. So I'm having a hard time understanding why she'll instantaneously grow to building-size the second anything happens.

The Great Grapple of this Age

So, I'm already not convinced that it's in-character or even possible for Kamala to grow that large on a whim. She may get a bit larger (or, just as likely, a bit smaller) to escape the trap Mercy laid. Now, right off the bat, you're discounting the fact that Mercy's faster than Kamala and will be attacking before Kamala even knows what's happening. Immediately, she has plenty of options:

  • Fusing Kamala to the ground with her Glue Gun
  • Just outright torching her with the Hellfire Zippo
  • Beating her to a pulp with her halo knuckles and leaving "A.S.S." stamps all over Kamala's face.
  • Or even clamping the Jaws of Death around Kamala's face while she's still squirming to get out.
No Caption Provided

Even once Kamala grows/shrinks to escape, provided she lives that long (Mercy has no qualms about killing), she has to catch Mercy who actually is a proven bullet-timer, as I have shown. Using the "big hand" trick is going to lead to that hand getting turned into pork cracklins by the Hellfire Zippo.

Even provided that Kamala does get hold ofMercy, which I have given several reasons why she should not, all Mercy has to do is flick her hand or tail and the Zippo will set off, totally frying Kamala but not affecting Mercy at all, since she cannot be burned.

No Caption Provided

Also, stating what Mercy is and isn't expecting is a bit presumptuous. Even before she became an angel-hunter (after which she has fought far more than just angels), Mercy lived in Sheol which was filled with demonic creatures. Hell, her ex-boyfriend was a seven-foot-tall green spider-creature. Mercy also has an alternative form of her own -- shape-shifting is nothing new to her and as soon as she sees that Kamala has the ability to morph, she'll adapt to it.

I don't see how Miss Marvel can win this. She's too slow, too unskilled, and her powers are too inconsistent. Mercy has the strength, the speed, the skill, the adaptability, the experience, the intelligence, and the equipment required to take the win here.

Your move.

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#45 thedailybagel  Moderator
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Joygirl

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#47  Edited By Joygirl

@sophia89:

It also shows her reaction time is faster than average humans.

Sure. But I've shown Mercy dodging gunfire casually and moving far faster than someone like Vlad can react (and while Vlad may look big and slow, he's really not). You've also already admitted that Mercy has superior combat speed.

Square goes to Mercy.

Why doesn't she grow at the start of every match.

for the same reason wally doesn't blitz at the start of every match.

In other words, "because it's out of character." Which it still is for Kamala. And this is an in-character match. :)

So, more likely, she'll start to shrink, rather than immediately growing. This will leave her vulnerable to an attack right away, which brings me to this:

Also if you recall Mercy set a trap and she is waiting on her prey to be trapped before attacking. So she wont attack that fast,kamla will know and be ready for the fight.

In the scan I posted, Mercy attacked the instant that the trap was set off, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that she won't attack that fast. The trap will spring, Kamala will shrink to escape, and proceed to be glued into place/burned to a crisp/stomped on.

  • "kamala's enlargement can make her too big for the glue,it will also backfire on Mercy if Kamela grabs her with her stick hands(guess mercy will have to stick around)"

The Hellfire Zippo burns the glue off. So Mercy's not in danger of collateral from her own weapons.

No Caption Provided

Not to mention the fact that it's more likely Kamala will shrink, not grow. In which case the glue gun is going to completely cover her.

  • "once she gets grabbed mercy wont be able to flick her lighter."

Once again, you seem to be under the impression that Mercy will let Kamala grab her. While, no, she isn't a blur, she's dramatically faster than an average human and is fast enough to swat arrows out of the air with her tail. Speaking of her tail, that's prehensile as well so she can use that to open her lighter -- if, by some miracle, Kamala manages to grab Mercy before she's able to react.

You've admitted that Kamala lacks experience, that her healing factor is not infinite, that she's not as fast, and that she's specifically inexperienced with the one tactic that might win her this fight (increasing her size). For every way that Kamala has of winning, Mercy has three or four different ones that are all equally viable, and is versatile, experienced, and intelligent enough to keep trying different things until one works.

My Conclusions:

  • Kamala (can get) stronger than Mercy, using her powers in a way that she only occasionally does.
  • Mercy's combat speed and combat skill is significantly higher than anything Kamala has shown.
  • Mercy has greater durability and a superior healing factor (shown when she was able to heal from repeated no-holds-barred beatdowns and was just as sassy afterward).
  • Mercy has the experience, adaptability, and gear to take the win in various ways. Kamala's only chance at winning is by using brute strength.

I think I'm ready to go to votes on this if you are (or if you wanna write up a closer), we've left our readers/voters waiting for quite a long time already. :P

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Joygirl

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@sophia89: Hmm, while I do have some counters for those, I'ma let it slide and start tagging. I'll start with the peeps who asked for it and maybe toss on a couple others.

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