CaV: Joygirl (Joker) vs. Pyrogram (Iron Fist)

Neither compound was Joker Venom, together they formed a binary version of Joker Venom. If the Meta Human Inhibitor had done its job, the Joker would not have been able to use the powers of those people to facilitate his escape. Without Black Mass being able to use his powers, they get shutdown once Supes and crew arrive. The components for Joker Venom where in both components. Later on, Joker uses Chemo as a mobile Jokerization Platform, yet it does not show him adding anything beyond Joker Venom.

The whole point behind the mentioning of Tower of Babel and War Games is to show that Batman is constantly planning for any number of scenarios all of which can be activated fairly easily. The Joker, as Batman's dark reflection, has the same things running all the time. So all he needed to do was activate it and bam, planet is his. Exactly why would people work for the Joker? Jokerization seems to be a reasonable means of doing the job.

The Alternative Name thing is a pointless observation given that the Joker was never his name. That was a name that the papers came up with and he ran with it. The Clown Prince of Crime is just another way to fill copy.

Anarchist has one definition, one who is opposed to authority. Money, power, are all symbols of authority and would be avoided by all anarchists. All other definitions of anarchy derive from the singular desire to give up on authority whether that be government or order (Also, Order is an Authority especially in DC where they have Lords of Order).

What happened after he killed the guy in the cafeteria?

Money is a waste of time in DC because ultimately manipulating people gets you far further. If he needs money to do something he finds a rich person and makes them give it to him. In a world with Supermen and Wonder Women you find the guy manipulating people to be the least plausible. I can see you have good judgement.

For the last time it mentions in the comic and the synopsis that he mixes that meta-inhibitor for the result, do you know what truly makes this an idiotic plot device the fact that despite it's incredibly useful applications it's never used even referenced never mind being used.

The Joker had only been recently moved to the Slab, there is a massive difference between having a plan and using vast amounts of resources to have that plan in action especially one on this scale. If you agree that he needed this jokerization to get the job done then how does it become plausible on any other occasion.

Regardless of what the name is it was given to highlight his position as a successful thief the same way I am using anarchist to simply imply that he is now destroying simply for the sake of destroying and anarchists still use there own forms of authority means to an end and all that.

After he killed the guy he went back to acting as if nothing happened.

The wealthy aren't atm's that can hand over million's on the spot. Manipulating is fine but it needs to be if not well written at least somewhat believable, if Lex convinces some super powered goons to fight Superman for cash that's a believable form of manipulation and he is unlikely to suffer any harsh repercussions he paid them after all, if the Joker convinces some super powered goons to wreck a building as a distraction so he can poison the water supply with deadly laxatives for the 5th time that just becomes stupid because even the dumbest mook should know better.

It does not, show me a scan. He doesn't need vast amounts of resources to spike the chemicals. He just needs some idiot with a gambling problem or another idiot who beats his wife somewhere along the way to make it happen. I don't agree that he needed the Jokerization to escape, he just needed the Jokerization to escape quickly. Remember, he had just been told he was dying so he activated his quickest escape plan.

Sorry, names are given to people sometimes for no reason. Dexter, for instance, was called the Bay Harbor Butcher which does present some relevant information but ultimately it does not define his character in any meaningful way. Anarchism by definition can have no authority other than the authority one exercises over one's actions. The Joker is not an anarchist, all of his actions seek to undermine Batman. Everything he does is to make Batman a little crazier or push Batman a little farther. The fact that you think the Joker is some mindless killing machine just highlights how little you know of the Joker. He has a singular goal and his focus on it is absolute. Everything he does, no matter how tangential, is related to achieving that goal. Anarchy is not his goal.

I don't mean directly after killing the guy, I mean later on in the story. I assume he escaped. That murder was designed to put him in a position to escape.

Why would he need millions? The Joker is quite the economical villain. The Joker scares the bejeezus out of pretty much every major criminal. Working for him earns you a pretty good amount of street cred so they get paid in credibility. Hundreds of companies and organizations pay people in nothing but experience and no one ever seems to complain.

You seem to have only read golden and silver age Joker and it appears that you will never be able to understand that his character has changed.

Bump.

@DireDrill: It's not up to me to provide scans on the matter, you originally wrote that it was just venom missing the important fact that it was mixed with the local meta gene inhibitor so you are prone to missing the details. All you get on the matter from the comic is I mixed my puke gas with the local meta-gene inhibitor and we got this mixture, no more than that.

Incorrect there are lots moments where the Joker wants more than simply annoying the Batman the very arc we are talking about was about him leaving a lasting mark on the world.

The event was witnessed by one of his ex sidekick's and was to highlight how far gone the Joker was, there was no grand plan to his killing this guy.

The Joker is far from economical he has his minions wear matching and fits out everything in a them outfits for crying out loud and villains don't work for him to gain street cred all your points about him are heavily romanticized he is not the master mind you give him credit for he is the trope namer for plot armour.

That is not how Burden of Proof works my friend. You made the initial claim that it wasn't Joker Venom, so Burden of Proof is still on you. You made the first claim, you provide the proof. I have already provided more than enough proof to the contrary. You either come up with the scans or you drop your claim. The Puke Gas was the prison's puke gas. Your post precipitated my mine.

The Joker did want to leave his mark on the world, by finally making Batman kill him. He knew he didn't have time for all the games and pulled out all the stops that limit him. Considering his plan almost succeeded in getting Batman to kill him, I would say it was a pretty good plan. On top of getting Batman to save him, he drove a wedge between he and Nightwing. This, combined with Zatanna's mindwiping, led Bruce to deploy Brother Eye.

What story is this from? You have not provided context.

I guess no organization in history has ever dressed and outfitted their people in the same stuff have they? Oh wait, every organization worth their salt has done this. It not only allows instant IFF but it promotes unity. Also, he could stockpile costumes easily in any one of his random properties.

If you survive working with the Joker, you can pretty much join any organization. Think of working for the Joker like working for Miranda Priestly in the Devil Wears Prada, it is awful and it will try your sanity but the experience will open doors later on.

The Joker is indeed the mastermind I claim him to be. I assume you mean Joker Immunity from TvTropes? If you read further, you would find that he is in quite good company. Magneto was also considered for the trope name as well. I have provided instances that prove everything I am saying and provide a more than consistent picture of Joker. You have fervently turned your nose up at the evidence due to some ridiculous dislike of one of the greatest villains in comics.

@DireDrill: You made the claim that he is using some chemical concoction to mind control people, I made a claim saying he simply used chemicals that where already there a method he has never used before or again, the burden of proof falls on the person with the less realistic claim.

Different story and of course Joker is going get to Batman, his unequaled plot armour ability to avoid being killed or properly sentenced means that he can keep coming back to kill people. If a police man keeps capturing a serial killer only for him to keep getting out he is clearly going to wonder why he simply doesn't kill him, beyond being allowed to be a mass repeat offender there is nothing that set's him aside.

http://www.comicvine.com/gaggy/29-51451/

Criminal's normally don't and that requires lots of money.

Of course Magneto belongs on the list he come's back from the dead and consistently fights or aggravate's people willing to kill him, Magneto is not good company they butchered they made the ending of X-Men's best run ever nonsensical by saying that the guy Magneto was pretending to be was actually pretending to be Magneto on top of that.

The fact that the Joker is the trope namer for plot armour over Magneto must show you that something's off

You made the claim that it was not Joker Venom. Your claim precipitated mine. No, Burden of proof falls to the person who first made a claim. When the police pick you up for speeding, burden of proof is always on them this is why if the cop does not show up at the hearing, the charges are dismissed. You made a claim, I made a counterclaim. Burden of proof is on the claimant not the counter-claimant.

Magneto's Plot Armor is far superior to the Joker so I don't see how the Joker's Plot Armor is unequaled. He can't be properly sentenced because he has been deemed incompetent to stand trial by not just the courts but by the Presence itself, the highest Authority in DC. The Joker also has an entire team of attorneys to ensure that no one questions his insanity defense should his incredible displays of seeming insanity not be enough to support it alone. He doesn't need money to obtain the blackmail needed to ensure their loyalty.

Killing those six inmates earned him an audience with Harleen Quinzel and you can guess how that fit into his plan.

The Joker is a greater showman than Magneto, this is why he is the Trope Namer.

Joker regularly redesigns and alters his venom for different purposes. He outright says he makes different kinds in Death of the Family. He is a master chemist and knows how the stuff works at a fundamental level. He decides of it jokerizes or kills, as a way to excuse him in "lighter" or "darker" stories.

/argument

@DireDrill: Bad example if someone claims I've been speeding but his no proof that I've even been in the area then I get off because it's more likely I wasn't speeding, your claiming something less likely.

Joker's the trope namer for a reason, if he is not responsible for his actions he has no free will, that Specter moment ruined the Joker as a character simply and is another perfect example of plot armour. It was introduced so they could explain why the Specter simply doesn't kill him.

That was long before he even knew of Quinzel's existence, Joker had being going to Arkham for a years before she even started working there. Now your trying to attribute future events as some sort of master planning.

@Joygirl: NHe says himself someone else created the venom in Last Laugh and the example you gave was Lex's handiwork, he was the one that researched Firestorm's weaknesses and for the final time it's never Jokerized before or again.

@Dextersinister: One of the scans I posted shows him jokerizing an entire city. In DotF it jokerizes the Bat-family. It has jokerized before. it jokerizes when he decides it jokerizes.

@Joygirl said:

@Dextersinister: One of the scans I posted shows him jokerizing an entire city. In DotF it jokerizes the Bat-family. It has jokerized before. it jokerizes when he decides it jokerizes.

You didn't post scans you posted links, I won't vote on this since I'm bias but it would help your point if you posted scans.

@Dextersinister: They were just scans to pictures because I didn't feel like waiting for the images to load. Uploading entire pages takes ages.

@Joygirl said:

@Dextersinister: They were just scans to pictures because I didn't feel like waiting for the images to load. Uploading entire pages takes ages.

Do you have a link for this scan and remember Jokerisation is where they follow along with the Joker's plans not just go green and laugh, the entire point was the mind control element.

@Dextersinister: Oh, sorry, we are talking about something different then. They didn't follow any plans, they just went giggly and berserk.

@Joygirl said:

@Dextersinister: Oh, sorry, we are talking about something different then. They didn't follow any plans, they just went giggly and berserk.

NP

@Dextersinister said:

@Joygirl said:

@Dextersinister: They were just scans to pictures because I didn't feel like waiting for the images to load. Uploading entire pages takes ages.

Do you have a link for this scan and remember Jokerisation is where they follow along with the Joker's plans not just go green and laugh, the entire point was the mind control element.

This is outright wrong. Jokerization makes them see things like the Joker. In the aforementioned Grayven Jokerization, he was blowing up a comedy club because they didn't think he was funny. Ion stopped him as this was after the Last Laugh had been resolved. Jokerization is exactly as Joygirl suggested. The Joker only appeared to be in charge because he has been dealing with Jokerization for far longer having been Jokerized himself years before.

Have you never received a speeding ticket? Burden of proof is always on the accuser or claimant not the defender or counter-claimant. You made the claim, you made the accusation. Burden of proof is on you. I had assumed that you had seen all of Joygirl's scans but apparently you had not. His scans prove you wrong.

@DireDrill: This is going to go on forever, I challenge you to one of those debate tournaments Lex vs Joker.

@Dextersinister: That seems like it would go badly, since there is recorded evidence of Joker lording over Lex....

This is only going to go on forever because you are wrong and refuse to admit it.

@Joygirl: Lex has never needed to go after the Joker

@DireDrill said:

This is only going to go on forever because you are wrong and refuse to admit it.

Do the scans show the people acting like the Joker or simply going hysterical?

You say it was cooked up in a lab I say it was simply thrown together with existing supply's, this is not a court of law and we go with hard defined rules, burden of proof is a technical term this is not a court of law. You are asking for a scan where he says he has made this chemical, it's up to you to show that he has done something I'm right simply by proof of it's inexistence.

I take it that's a no.

@DireDrill: @Dextersinister: Confused why you guys are posting in this thread and debating. I don't believe this is a make a match and everyone join in ... this is 1 on 1 debate match of joygirl vs pyrogram. I voted Joygirl not because I believe joker wins (although I might not telling) but because she out debated pyrogram.

The debate was already over by the time we started debating.

@joygirl: does iron fist get his chi?

@killerwasp: I don't recall, this is a billion years old. I think he did.

@joygirl: ah well that makes it tougher, joker aint no joke with prep. I think ill go with the mad clown prince of Gotham. although there has been some good pointers for bothsides though.

Really random bump lol.

Jmarshmallow

I linked it for the Joker vs. Bane thread to show that, if I can prove Joker could beat Danny Rand, Bane shouldn't be much of an issue.

@jmarshmallow: got it from the good old 100th bane vs joker thread. LoL

@killerwasp: @joygirl: Ooooh....I'll have to give that a look then.

Jmarshmallow

Edit: My face when I saw that the thread wasn't as hip as I thought it would be ---->

@jmarshmallow: you should its a close call HUEHUE lol

iron fist wins for sure