CaV: Jason Todd vs Leon Kennedy

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nickzambuto

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#1  Edited By nickzambuto
The Red Hood, Jason Todd
The Red Hood, Jason Todd
Special Agent Leon Scott Kennedy
Special Agent Leon Scott Kennedy
  • In character - morals are ON
  • Combatants have basic knowledge of their target from word of each others' reputations
  • Most recent versions of each
  • Jason has his standard gear and the All Blades, no venom
  • Leon has his standard gear and an adamantium combat knife
  • Meet 25 feet apart
  • To the die

BATTLEFIELD:

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#2  Edited By nickzambuto
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RolandAlderas

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@nickzambuto: Looks good man. I'll get something up soon so we can get this moving.

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Rick_Grayson

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#4  Edited By Rick_Grayson

Looks interesting, I'll be keeping an eye on this one.

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ComicStooge

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@nickzambuto: I haven't given up on our CAV. I'm waiting for Renchamp's reply to my question, then I'll go from there. :)

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@nickzambuto: Will get something here soon. Bought a new comp for Cyber Monday and in the process of updating my scans. If you wanna go first by all means take the reigns.

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RolandAlderas

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#7  Edited By RolandAlderas

@nickzambuto:

Red Hood

Jason
Jason "One Shot Wonder" Todd

I'll be representing Jason Todd aka the Red Hood. For those of you who don't already know, Jason served as Robin for many years before being killed by the Joker, who savagely beat him with a crowbar before hand. His time as Robin never really stood out to me though. It was his appearance afterwards that really grabbed my attention as a reader and actually brought me into reading comics in general. Ironically, he wasn't the first person to don the Red Hood title. the Joker (Same guy who killed him) was the first.

After being brought back by Ra's Al Ghul, Jason broke free from his grasp and instantly began seeking revenge on Bruce Wayne for not killing the man who had slain him. Jason, after all that time he was dead, was hell bent on making Bruce pay for not killing the Joker. Eventually, he is defeated by Batman after some other heroes come to his aid. In the New 52, this fight is never really shown but it is implied that Jason was able to best Batman and was saved by Nightwing. Following those events, Jason became a mercenary who took justice in his own hands, usually not hesitating to leave a horde of bodies in his wake.

After some time, Jason finds himself as the leader of the Outlaws, along with Arsenal aka Roy Harper and Starfire. His showings in the Outlaws comics is where I will be deriving most of my feats for this character from as it shows Jason in a whole new light. As the story goes on, not only do you find a man who struggles with his own morals and ideals but you find that he is so much more than just a sidekick to Batman. Throughout the series, it is stated and shown that Jason has trained with multiple masters, thus is fighting ability in the New 52 seems to be much greater than his fighting ability previously. Here's a quick run down of who exactly has trained Jason Todd:

  • Bruce Wayne (Batman)
  • The League of Assassins (Lady Shiva, Bronze Tiger, etc)
  • The All Caste (A society who's been around since the dawn of man. Durca, his trainer, is stated to be at least 3000 years old)

Now that last one is the one that really makes Jason who he is today. Combined with all of his talents that he gathered from his trainers, Jason has been able to do some incredible things in the Outlaws comics, usually leading people to think of "One Shot" whenever they see or hear his name. I don't want to ramble on too much about this guy because I could go on for days but he is really not a guy that you want to underestimate.

Now that you know the man, let's learn about what he carries and how he acts. Jason is a man without morals, to say the least. He usually doesn't hesitate to kill someone but has shown at times to have mercy on his opponents and not want to kill everyone who crosses his path. With all of his training under his belt, Jason usually carries similar weapons to Batman, only he has a slight variation on his gear since he usually doesn't have to hold back and did get training from a secret society, the All Caste. Here are the weapons Jason usually carries with him:

  • The All Blades (Mystic blades granted to him after he completed his training with the All Caste)
  • Multiple fire arms, typically using two pistols though the amount he actually carries on his person is never stated
  • Red Batarangs (Batarangs that are red)
  • Grappling Hooks
  • Red Hood (Very durable and provides him with some extra vision)
  • Blade Gauntlets (Deadly gauntlets with blades on them)
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I won't be using Jason on Venom, because we all know that would be unfair for this match. So please, keep that in mind when casting your votes for this match. Also, even though Nick didn't state in the OP, I won't be using any alien tech such as the Starbuster or the teleporter because that would also make it a stomp in Jason's favor. Even with these restrictions, I believe that this match will go to Jason.

I will elaborate more on why later.

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#8  Edited By nickzambuto

@rolandalderas: I've been looking forward to this. Alright, let's go.

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Leon Scott Kennedy is a high ranking agent for the Division of Security Operations (DoS) under the United States Government. He serves as a member of US-STRATCOM, one of nine Unified Combatant Commands of the United States Department of Defense (DoD), taking orders directly from the president himself and having received the highest quality training available. This particular organization is charged with upholding national security by means of space operations, information operations and warfare, missile defense, global command and control, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance, global strike and strategic deterrence (the United States nuclear arsenal), and combating weapons of mass destruction.

In the event of a national crisis, Leon Scott Kennedy IS the Government's countermeasure. Be it a nation of superhumans threatening domination of the United States, a corrupt country instigating civil war, or a bio-terror outbreak right here at home, Leon Kennedy is the man sent in to clean up whatever mess needs cleaning to ensure the safety of the country, and at times, the human race at large.

Pretty elite stuff am I right? I just wanted to shoot down any preconceived notions certain users might have about Leon's abilities, and his limitations, right off the bat; the fact of the matter is, Leon is a real one-man army, and even though he doesn't have the oriental assassin training of Jason Todd, you can't deny that being a member of goddamn US-STRATCOM can't be that far off, if at all. I mean I'd be a fool to say that Jason Todd's training is any less than the creme de la creme of what any aspiring comic book martial artist could possibly ask for, but at the same time, the influence of the United States Government is NOT to be underestimated. The true power and reach this big plot of land we call America has over the rest of the world is truly mind boggling, so my point is that even though the All-Caste has been around for more than thousands of years, to be honest there probably isn't much they know that the U.S. Government doesn't also know, so Jason's training doesn't really give him an edge over Leon, assuming they both received the very best their respective organizations had to offer.

Excuse my mini-rant, I kind of went off topic, but I just needed to get that out of the way. I know that Leon is by far the underdog in this scenario, so before going into actual feats and strategies I just wanted to explain why the belief that Jason should have him automatically outmatched is false. 'Comic book character' does not automatically mean better feats, and oriental does not automatically mean more skilled. Not saying this against you personally Roland, your rather concise and impressive opener is actually what stirred me to get so passionate here, I'm just directing this at certain users who have these beliefs and that might sway their opinion before the match even starts. But I digress, how does Leon specifically stack up against Red Hood is the question here, and I'm here to tell everybody that the answer is "quite well."

They both have pretty similar skillsets; firearms, parkour, heavy weapons, H2H, blades, the list goes on, and while I'll give Jason his dues where he deserves them, I'm a fan of both characters and I'm pretty confident that Leon is overall superior and would win in the end. So let me start with the most pressing matter at hand; range. I am sure that you and I will be arguing speed and H2H and stuff like that until the cows come home, but one area where I'm pretty sure that Jason just doesn't match up is in marksmanship, and if he's not on his A-Game then I'm telling you he could lose the match almost as quickly as it begins. Consider this; Leon has appeared as the main character in at least four video games, two full-length animated movies, and a myriad of quasi-canon comic books and novels, so needless to say he's fired his gun quite a few times, yet not once can I recall him ever missing.

Wait, excuse me, he did miss once during Damnation, but that was when he was up against a Licker in a pitch black parking garage who is way faster than Jason Todd and was literally weaving in between his assault rifle bullets as they were flying out, although with a bit of maneuvering and tactical firing Leon did manage to tag the Licker regardless, and for the rest of the movie he never missed his shots again, so all in all that's a pretty solid record to say the least. But I'll get to that in another minute, first I want to showcase some of Leon's more basic accuracy feats in hopes of proving him more skilled than Jason, then we'll get into actually how Leon will tag Jason (since he's a bullet timer) afterwards. First and foremost, in Resident Evil: Degeneration Leon showed his ability to make accurate headshots from a distance of over 50 yards away, in near total darkness. Notice how he rapid fires one after the other without really taking the time to aim, yet each bullet lands squarely between the eyes of each target.

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In the below gifs, you can see Leon protecting his teammates and carving a path for them through the army of zombies as they make their way through the infected airport. Again, every shot is a kill shot.

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Could Jason make shots at that range, at that speed, with that precision, and in that lighting so effortlessly? Something tells me he'd need to resort to the All-Blades in a situation like that. You might disagree with me, and that's fine, but in return I would say that a pistol is one thing, what REALLY puts Leon over the edge in terms of firearm skill is the fact that thanks to his training in addition to natural talent, he is proficient with virtually every weapon in existence. That's quite a testament to his ability, compare it to Batman being a master of XXX amount of martial arts styles and therefore he's a great fighter. In the below gif Leon is able to make an impeccable precision shot from all the way across the platform into Saddler's mutated eye whilst it's waving back and forth erratically, with a weapon as clunky and inaccurate as an RPG. That's actually pretty amazing.

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In terms of firing reflexes, Leon is incredibly skilled, Jason is fast but he's not something Leon can't track and target. One of my FAVORITE feats actually comes from Resident Evil 6 (if I could make that whole game non-cannon with the exclusion of this scene, I would) where the mutated Derek Simmons rips up a piece of metal from the train and hurls it towards Leon and Helena at super speeds. In a flash, Leon is able to slide on the floor and nail two shots on the plate in the exact same place, from the perfect angle, so that is just barely glides over Helena's head, allowing her time to target Simmons directly.

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And on that note, here's the full clip of Leon's fight against the Licker, the only time where he ever missed. To be honest Leon has faced too many Lickers in his lifetime, and at this point he's just messing around with the thing and making jokes. Notice how he's able to easily lure the Licker up into the air with his gunfire, and then blast it while it's vulnerable, and then for the remainder of the fight he has the monster completely on the run before they are interrupted by an explosion.

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While I'm at it, here's the gif showing Leon headshotting two more Lickers in midair later in the film.

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That's not an example of raw accuracy, that's an example of tactical accuracy. Putting the Lickers in positions where they can't dodge, where he wants them to be. To that end, Leon can sacrifice a few bullets and I wouldn't hold it against him (not that he even needed to in the case of the latter two Lickers, his body alone was enough to outmaneuver them at that point)

Which brings me to my next point: actually tagging Jason. I have no doubt in my mind that unless Jason pulls something tricky out of his sleeve, it won't take Leon long to pump his chest full of lead. For one thing, despite being a bullet timer, I don't think Jason has any feats against anyone who isn't cannon fodder. His bullet dodging feats are good, but Leon is a master marksman, there really is no comparison to be made, his sheer accuracy is almost perfect, and therefore Jason will find avoiding his shots to be extremely difficult. By extension, not only is Leon incredibly accurate, but he's also incredibly tactical. Shooting the plate over Helena's head and luring the Lickers around are just minor examples, in Degeneration there's a scene where Curtis Miller infects himself with the G-Virus and mutates into an unstoppable rage monster. He tanks a hailstorm of assault rifle fire from a S.W.A.T. team and then kills every single one of them in a matter of seconds. Right when Angela is about to be killed, Leon suddenly bursts in from nowhere with a goddamn grenade launcher in his hands, and you expect him to have a big battle with Curtis now to show how tough he is, but nope. Instead he launches his grenades straight up into the air, and the camera reveals that he spotted a weakened section of the walkway and was able to target it with pinpoint accuracy (another good feat considering the weapon and the distance) and he had timed his shot so unbelievably perfectly down to the very last second so that the walkway would begin to collapse, just as Curtis ran underneath it.

The full clip isn't anywhere on YouTube, and I wouldn't want to link you to some weird website for the full movie just to watch one scene (although I will if you'd like), so this gif will suffice. It shows Leon blasting the walkway and Curtis underneath it, you can use your imagination and my description to fill in the rest.

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Of course all this skill won't do Leon much good if he gets shot too. Then it's just a stalemate, and as much as it might seem like I was underestimating him in everything above, I know that Jason is a fantastic marksman in his own right. Luckily for me, he's just not quite as good as Leon, meaning it will be much easier for agent Kennedy to dodge Jason's bullets then for Jason to dodge Kennedy's. Leon has a handful of pretty good bullet dodging and timing feats himself.

Leon is able to outrun a hailstorm of fully automatic gunfire from a team of highly trained spec ops soldiers all at once. This is a great feat because 1) Leon was caught off guard and did not move until after the bullets were fired, and 2) despite being cannon fodder, this same group of soldiers was able to take out a Licker in the same scene, making them very skilled. This means that Leon was capable of out-reacting a superhuman, since they failed to tag him but not the Licker.
Leon is able to outrun a hailstorm of fully automatic gunfire from a team of highly trained spec ops soldiers all at once. This is a great feat because 1) Leon was caught off guard and did not move until after the bullets were fired, and 2) despite being cannon fodder, this same group of soldiers was able to take out a Licker in the same scene, making them very skilled. This means that Leon was capable of out-reacting a superhuman, since they failed to tag him but not the Licker.
Leon and Helena were assaulted by a barrage of uzi fire from several of Derek Simmons personal agents. In this gif it's more clear that the guns fired first and then Leon moved, but perhaps even more impressive is not the fact that Leon bullet timed, but that Helena did. Throughout the course of the game it's made abundantly clear that Leon kicks the crap out of Helena in every aspect, he has outreacted her several times and even saved her life, making this feat doubly impressive.
Leon and Helena were assaulted by a barrage of uzi fire from several of Derek Simmons personal agents. In this gif it's more clear that the guns fired first and then Leon moved, but perhaps even more impressive is not the fact that Leon bullet timed, but that Helena did. Throughout the course of the game it's made abundantly clear that Leon kicks the crap out of Helena in every aspect, he has outreacted her several times and even saved her life, making this feat doubly impressive.
Another showing of Leon outreacting a superhuman, he and Sherry are situated on top of a gate when the Ustanak appears out of nowhere and fires two bullets from his minigun. It goes without saying that a weapon of that caliber is going to fire rounds far faster than a normal weapon, and indeed Sherry is unable to move even an inch despite her superhuman abilities. Leon however is able to first dodge the bullet aimed towards him, then push Sherry away from the bullet aimed towards her and put it in between them. Usually in situations like this the character is forced to take the bullet themselves to save their friend, but Leon's reflexes were sharp enough that they both ended up fine. I should address the fact that if you watch closely, Leon might have begun moving before the bullets were fired (it's hard to tell) but honestly if anything that should make it more impressive, the fact that he was able to get moving instantly. No snap reaction at the sound of a gunshot, just immediate action. He still maneuvered around two bullets with Sherry so it's clear he was reacting to them in midair, and let's nor forget the fact that on top of this, Leon made sure that Sherry landed on top of him when they fell.
Another showing of Leon outreacting a superhuman, he and Sherry are situated on top of a gate when the Ustanak appears out of nowhere and fires two bullets from his minigun. It goes without saying that a weapon of that caliber is going to fire rounds far faster than a normal weapon, and indeed Sherry is unable to move even an inch despite her superhuman abilities. Leon however is able to first dodge the bullet aimed towards him, then push Sherry away from the bullet aimed towards her and put it in between them. Usually in situations like this the character is forced to take the bullet themselves to save their friend, but Leon's reflexes were sharp enough that they both ended up fine. I should address the fact that if you watch closely, Leon might have begun moving before the bullets were fired (it's hard to tell) but honestly if anything that should make it more impressive, the fact that he was able to get moving instantly. No snap reaction at the sound of a gunshot, just immediate action. He still maneuvered around two bullets with Sherry so it's clear he was reacting to them in midair, and let's nor forget the fact that on top of this, Leon made sure that Sherry landed on top of him when they fell.
The most important feat so far. Leon is able to outrace automatic gunfire from Jack Krauser and make it behind cover. Call it aim dodging if you want, but Krauser is not a man to be underestimated, he's a highly decorated soldier with a plethora of skills and experience under his belt. See below for an example of his marksmanship.
The most important feat so far. Leon is able to outrace automatic gunfire from Jack Krauser and make it behind cover. Call it aim dodging if you want, but Krauser is not a man to be underestimated, he's a highly decorated soldier with a plethora of skills and experience under his belt. See below for an example of his marksmanship.
Krauser is looking in the opposite direction when suddenly a projectile spike is shot towards him out of nowhere. He immediately spins around, raises his gun, and without even having time to aim fires at the projectile, with his bullet coming close enough to literally scrape along the edge of the spike, which was itself moving at near bullet speeds. That's an insane feat, and Krauser was still human at this time. When he shot Leon he was superhuman. In a nutshell, if Leon can dodge gunfire from Krauser, that proves he'll be able to dodge gunfire from Red Hood. Does Todd have any feats against a marksman of Leon's caliber to even this out? If not, Kennedy has the advantage.
Krauser is looking in the opposite direction when suddenly a projectile spike is shot towards him out of nowhere. He immediately spins around, raises his gun, and without even having time to aim fires at the projectile, with his bullet coming close enough to literally scrape along the edge of the spike, which was itself moving at near bullet speeds. That's an insane feat, and Krauser was still human at this time. When he shot Leon he was superhuman. In a nutshell, if Leon can dodge gunfire from Krauser, that proves he'll be able to dodge gunfire from Red Hood. Does Todd have any feats against a marksman of Leon's caliber to even this out? If not, Kennedy has the advantage.

Now on top of all this, Leon's equipment is also going to go a long way in giving him the win over Red Hood. I could be wrong, but I believe that Leon's basic gear is a lot more diverse, and a lot more extensive than Todd's. In the movies Leon is typically seen equipped with an assault rifle and a grenade launcher attachment. Automatic weapons are an advantage in themselves when Todd only uses pistols (a pretty big advantage in fact) but the grenade launcher seals the deal. Jason won't even be able to find respite from Leon's assault behind a wall or a dumpster because Leon can blow away everything in this alleyway with ease. Jason is going to be constantly on the run, and dodging an explosion isn't as easy as it might sound, especially from an already established expert tactician who would probably follow up with a few bursts of perfectly places gunfire to lure you into the exact spot he wants you in to finish you off. On top of that Leon is always using hand grenades of various sorts, ranging from frag, to flash, to even incendiary. Each one has the potential to turn the tides of this fight in an instant, the tactical options at Leon's disposal are endless. And if it counts as standard gear, Leon was also able to use remote explosives in RE6, which can go a long way in trapping Jason. And don't worry about Leon's defense in the midst of all these weapons, he wears a tactical vest plus arm and knee pads when he's fully decked out. In unison with his speed and inhuman pain threshold, Leon should have no problems surviving until the end of the match.

I think this is a good enough battle plan to start, I'm pretty sure Leon has the advantage with his equipment and the skill with which he employs that equipment, and I haven't even gotten to the fun feats yet. I think I'll end by just addressing a few points you made in your opener, then I'll await your counter.

In the New 52, this fight is never really shown but it is implied that Jason was able to best Batman and was saved by Nightwing.

I wouldn't put much stock into Jason beating Batman, the only evidence we have is one panel of Jason's day dream, there was probably loads of context leading to Bruce laying on the ground, and considering Nightwing immediately fended Jason off, it doesn't really prove much.

Combined with all of his talents that he gathered from his trainers, Jason has been able to do some incredible things in the Outlaws comics, usually leading people to think of "One Shot" whenever they see or hear his name.

The whole one shot thing is more of a joke at Jason's expense than praise, at least that's how I saw it. Oneshotting Lady Shiva and nuclear submarines are, after all, kinda laughable.

Jason is a man without morals, to say the least. He usually doesn't hesitate to kill someone but has shown at times to have mercy on his opponents and not want to kill everyone who crosses his path.

Same goes for Leon.

  • The All Blades (Mystic blades granted to him after he completed his training with the All Caste)
  • Multiple fire arms, typically using two pistols though the amount he actually carries on his person is never stated
  • Red Batarangs (Batarangs that are red)
  • Grappling Hooks
  • Red Hood (Very durable and provides him with some extra vision)
  • Blade Gauntlets (Deadly gauntlets with blades on them)

Leon has a grappling hook too and his throwing knife cancels out batarangs. I've already gone over his choice of firearm so he has Jason outmatched there, plus Leon is also known to duel wield pistols rather stylishly in Resident Evil 6. It seems my initial guess was right, Jason's gear is much more tailored towards close quarters what with all those blades, so if Leon keeps him at bay then he should have a large advantage. Admittedly Leon doesn't use any melee weapons besides his knife, which is a bit out of it's depth going against the All Blades and that monstrous gauntlet. But we'll see, I think Leon is much stronger and more skilled than Jason, so he shouldn't be at a complete loss in close quarters.

I won't be using Jason on Venom, because we all know that would be unfair for this match. So please, keep that in mind when casting your votes for this match. Also, even though Nick didn't state in the OP, I won't be using any alien tech such as the Starbuster or the teleporter because that would also make it a stomp in Jason's favor. Even with these restrictions, I believe that this match will go to Jason.

Hey now, slow down. Give Kennedy some credit, venom on it's own wouldn't be an insta-win, and BFR isn't really winning anyway.

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nickzambuto

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@rolandalderas: Bit of an error uploading my post, thankfully I didn't lose it. Just want to make sure you get the alert.

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MonsterStomp

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Leon looks like a worthy opponent for Sam Fisher.

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nickzambuto

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@monsterstomp said:

Leon looks like a worthy opponent for Sam Fisher.

Leon would kick Sam Fisher's old man ass :o

@rolandalderas I don't mean to spam you, can you just confirm for me that you saw my message, so that I know the notifications aren't buggy?

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NeonGameWave

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My favorite RE character vs. one of my favorite Robins..... This debate is epic!

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@monsterstomp said:

Leon looks like a worthy opponent for Sam Fisher.

Leon would kick Sam Fisher's old man ass :o

Based on what I'm seeing so far, no he wouldn't. Lol.

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MonsterStomp

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@rextrapz: This is a CaV debate. Between two users. Any related input should be held off until voting period.

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gumflabica

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#17  Edited By gumflabica

*leans in closer*

This is a winner. Expect me back again soon.

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Sy8000

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Tag me for votes.

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BeaconofStrength

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Tag me, too.

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nickzambuto

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@nickzambuto said:

@monsterstomp said:

Leon looks like a worthy opponent for Sam Fisher.

Leon would kick Sam Fisher's old man ass :o

Based on what I'm seeing so far, no he wouldn't. Lol.

I only made one post so far tho

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RolandAlderas

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@nickzambuto: Looking good my friend. Looking good.

I'll have something up here by tomorrow. Glad I got a good opponent.

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#23  Edited By nickzambuto

@nickzambuto: Looking good my friend. Looking good.

I'll have something up here by tomorrow. Glad I got a good opponent.

Are all the gifs showing up alright for you? If not, click on them and they'll start loading better.

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TrionAce

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#24  Edited By TrionAce

@rextrapz: Its a CAV.....let them finish then give your opinion. In my opinion hedid a good job with Leon's feats

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TrionAce

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@rextrapz: Do you know what a CAV is? He isn't wanking Leon. Its his purpose to debate for Leon and he made good points. Also supposed to hold off comments until the CAV is done.

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#26  Edited By RolandAlderas
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MonsterStomp

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@monsterstomp said:

@nickzambuto said:

@monsterstomp said:

Leon looks like a worthy opponent for Sam Fisher.

Leon would kick Sam Fisher's old man ass :o

Based on what I'm seeing so far, no he wouldn't. Lol.

I only made one post so far tho

Hence the "so far".

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RolandAlderas

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#28  Edited By RolandAlderas

@nickzambuto:

Hey now, slow down. Give Kennedy some credit, venom on it's own wouldn't be an insta-win, and BFR isn't really winning anyway.

Ha I thought you were supposed to be doing that? Leon Kennedy is an impressive opponent and I give him as much credit as I can without hurting my argument that Jason is better all around. Honestly, I just wanted to remind the voters so there was no misconceptions about the match being one sided. You have done an excellent job of representing Leon and hitting on all the weaknesses and strengths of both characters. However, I do find some flaws in your plan and logic. Let's see if I can't bring to light some things that may change how you think Leon would go about fighting Jason.

First of all...

Pretty elite stuff am I right? I just wanted to shoot down any preconceived notions certain users might have about Leon's abilities, and his limitations, right off the bat; the fact of the matter is, Leon is a real one-man army, and even though he doesn't have the oriental assassin training of Jason Todd, you can't deny that being a member of goddamn US-STRATCOM can't be that far off, if at all. I mean I'd be a fool to say that Jason Todd's training is any less than the creme de la creme of what any aspiring comic book martial artist could possibly ask for, but at the same time, the influence of the United States Government is NOT to be underestimated. The true power and reach this big plot of land we call America has over the rest of the world is truly mind boggling, so my point is that even though the All-Caste has been around for more than thousands of years, to be honest there probably isn't much they know that the U.S. Government doesn't also know, so Jason's training doesn't really give him an edge over Leon, assuming they both received the very best their respective organizations had to offer.

Correct. Leon Kennedy is a very powerful character in his own regard with all of his military training and experience. His track record would make any solider in the army look like some third rate trainee who pales in comparison to him. But we are talking about Jason Todd. A man trained by Batman, All Caste, and the League of Assassins. In no way can I imagine that the training Leon has received from the military puts him on Red Hood's level in terms of hand to hand combat. I can bet a penny and a fiddle of gold that the All Caste training is exclusive to those who have trained under Durca or any other All Caste member, as to get into the realm where they reside you have to have been there first.

As you've made quite clear, Leon usually relies on his firearms to get the job done and take out his opponents. Jason uses a combination of both guns and hand to hand abilities making him a very hard opponent for Leon to take up close. Even since a young age, Jason has excelled at hand to hand combat and in some instances has shown to be able to mimic martial arts techniques after seeing them only once.

Able to mimic the technique just from seeing it once. Mind you with no combat training what so ever at this point. It could be noted that Jason seems like he is a natural martial artist.  Granted the guy just stood there and laughed, thinking he wouldn't be hurt, but still impressive considering he just saw the technique a few minutes ago.
Able to mimic the technique just from seeing it once. Mind you with no combat training what so ever at this point. It could be noted that Jason seems like he is a natural martial artist. Granted the guy just stood there and laughed, thinking he wouldn't be hurt, but still impressive considering he just saw the technique a few minutes ago.
Talia wasn't even able to perform the technique, even though she is a trained assassin. She even comments on Jason's raw skill at that time.
Talia wasn't even able to perform the technique, even though she is a trained assassin. She even comments on Jason's raw skill at that time.

Now remember...this is actually before Jason has received any training from the All Caste, the League of Assassins, or Batman himself. I can only imagine how strong he became after his training and it's shown time and time again in the comics that he is not to be underestimated in the hand to hand department. After receiving the handful of training and experience needed to become who he is today, I can say with good confidence that Jason is leagues above Leon in hand to hand combat. I won't even bother bringing up the punching through the submarine and outswimming the nuke because I feel that was more for the plot's sake than anything else. Just as confident about Leon's marksmanship abilities as out weighing Jason's, I am equally confident that Jason's hand to hand skill is far above the level that Leon is at from what I've seen of him. He has nice stats but in terms of actual combat, skill and technique usually outweigh everything else. Below are just some of the instances where I feel, if left only to his hand to hand abilities, Leon would not come out alive.

A lot of people take this feat as a showing of Jason's strength. Personally I feel that this feat shows how skilled Jason is simply because he was able to flip such a heavy opponent, using her own movement to disable her and bring her down even though she had a significant size advantage against Jason. He was able to do this with a gun in his hand as well as he usually incorporates them in to his close range fighting game. On a side note, this shows just how ruthless Jason really is as well.
A lot of people take this feat as a showing of Jason's strength. Personally I feel that this feat shows how skilled Jason is simply because he was able to flip such a heavy opponent, using her own movement to disable her and bring her down even though she had a significant size advantage against Jason. He was able to do this with a gun in his hand as well as he usually incorporates them in to his close range fighting game. On a side note, this shows just how ruthless Jason really is as well.
This shows Jason's jumping ability . After his All Caste training it seems that he is able to do things that normal humans just wouldn't have any chance of doing. This is also going to be a good way for Jason to avoid Leon and take a high ground against him.
This shows Jason's jumping ability . After his All Caste training it seems that he is able to do things that normal humans just wouldn't have any chance of doing. This is also going to be a good way for Jason to avoid Leon and take a high ground against him.
This is a great showing of what I was talking about earlier, Jason Todd being a natural martial artist. He comments that he only trained under Shiva for 6 months yet these Manbats have trained under her for years, yet they still aren't on his level of skill and can't even land a punch on him. Not only that but it shows Jason is very good at using his surroundings to aid him in combat, using the chain to grapple around and attack.
This is a great showing of what I was talking about earlier, Jason Todd being a natural martial artist. He comments that he only trained under Shiva for 6 months yet these Manbats have trained under her for years, yet they still aren't on his level of skill and can't even land a punch on him. Not only that but it shows Jason is very good at using his surroundings to aid him in combat, using the chain to grapple around and attack.
This is one of my favorite showings of just how good Jason's All Caste training really is. In this scene, JASON IS FIGHTING BLIND against Tim Drake, a respectable fighter in his own right. Yet, even with being blinded and stunned by his opponent, with his superior martial arts abilities he is able to handle him with his eyes closed. Impressive, to say the least.
This is one of my favorite showings of just how good Jason's All Caste training really is. In this scene, JASON IS FIGHTING BLIND against Tim Drake, a respectable fighter in his own right. Yet, even with being blinded and stunned by his opponent, with his superior martial arts abilities he is able to handle him with his eyes closed. Impressive, to say the least.
Of course, this feat had to come in. It just shows how great Jason really is in hand to hand skill, able to completely mop the floor with Lady Shiva in a matter of panels. Granted, Shiva's feats in the New 52 are few and far between, but that doesn't take away from just how good this showing really is.
Of course, this feat had to come in. It just shows how great Jason really is in hand to hand skill, able to completely mop the floor with Lady Shiva in a matter of panels. Granted, Shiva's feats in the New 52 are few and far between, but that doesn't take away from just how good this showing really is.

Just wanted to clear that up. Jason is the superior combatant when it comes to hand to hand, in my personal opinion. The amount of skill and technique that he is bringing to the table is just too much for Leon's physical stats to make up for. Doesn't hurt to mention that Jason's physicals are probably around the same as Leon's, Leon likely a bit stronger than Todd is.

but one area where I'm pretty sure that Jason just doesn't match up is in marksmanship, and if he's not on his A-Game then I'm telling you he could lose the match almost as quickly as it begins. Consider this; Leon has appeared as the main character in at least four video games, two full-length animated movies, and a myriad of quasi-canon comic books and novels, so needless to say he's fired his gun quite a few times, yet not once can I recall him ever missing.

I'll give you this one. Leon is a fairly good marksman and I cannot take away that from him. You've brought up some excellent points for Leon being a very talented marksman and I don't really have an argument for why Jason is better than Leon. But, he likely is just as talented with his firearms as Leon is. There is one instance that I just cannot find where Jason shoots through bullet proof glass through a scratch in the glass itself, not missing a bullet. I wish I could find the scan, but it is in Death of the Family right after that fight with Tim Drake. I'll try and find it later if I need to.

First and foremost, in Resident Evil: Degeneration Leon showed his ability to make accurate headshots from a distance of over 50 yards away, in near total darkness. Notice how he rapid fires one after the other without really taking the time to aim, yet each bullet lands squarely between the eyes of each target.

This one really doesn't bring much to the table. He is shooting zombies. They move maybe at 1 mph and headshotting them would be a simple task for any street level character in my opinion.

Could Jason make shots at that range, at that speed, with that precision, and in that lighting so effortlessly? Something tells me he'd need to resort to the All-Blades in a situation like that. You might disagree with me, and that's fine, but in return I would say that a pistol is one thing, what REALLY puts Leon over the edge in terms of firearm skill is the fact that thanks to his training in addition to natural talent, he is proficient with virtually every weapon in existence. That's quite a testament to his ability, compare it to Batman being a master of XXX amount of martial arts styles and therefore he's a great fighter. In the below gif Leon is able to make an impeccable precision shot from all the way across the platform into Saddler's mutated eye whilst it's waving back and forth erratically, with a weapon as clunky and inaccurate as an RPG. That's actually pretty amazing.

Basically the same thing here. He is shooting zombies. None of which seemed to be moving very fast at all. I will give you the fact Leon's terms of firepower he has Jason outclassed with his automatic rifle and grenade launcher, but I will get to that in a bit. For now, I want to show you just what Jason is capable of with a gun because he is no slouch when it comes to wielding a pistol.

How many guards do you think are surrounding them? All with automatic weapons and their sights set solely on Arsenal and
How many guards do you think are surrounding them? All with automatic weapons and their sights set solely on Arsenal and "The Preacher" aka Jason Todd. I think they number in the 20's on panel but I'm sure there are more guards there than that.

What I really want to hit on with that showing is one fact: Jason's speed and aim with a small firearm. Before any of those guards with automatic rifles can react, Jason is able to:

  • Bust out of his disguise
  • Throw Roy his quiver
  • SHOOT ROY'S CHAINS OFF
  • With Roy's help, clean out the whole room of guards before they can even lay a shot onto the duo

The bolded part is the most impressive. So, even if the guards somehow didn't see him break out of his disguise, they surely heard the gunfire from Jason's gun to blow not only the hand cuffs holding Roy but the ball and chain attached to his leg. He did all this before firing upon the guards who were surrounding him showing great speed with his firearms that simply can't be written off. Even though they are fodder, they still have automatic weapons which (In my book) buts them above the level of the zombies Leon was so casually taking out. Looks like most of those are headshots as well, as far as I can tell.

And on that note, here's the full clip of Leon's fight against the Licker, the only time where he ever missed. To be honest Leon has faced too many Lickers in his lifetime, and at this point he's just messing around with the thing and making jokes. Notice how he's able to easily lure the Licker up into the air with his gunfire, and then blast it while it's vulnerable, and then for the remainder of the fight he has the monster completely on the run before they are interrupted by an explosion.

Not bad, though he did waste an entire clip before actually hitting the Licker itself and it still wasn't enough to take it down.

That's not an example of raw accuracy, that's an example of tactical accuracy. Putting the Lickers in positions where they can't dodge, where he wants them to be. To that end, Leon can sacrifice a few bullets and I wouldn't hold it against him (not that he even needed to in the case of the latter two Lickers, his body alone was enough to outmaneuver them at that point)

Which brings me to my next point: actually tagging Jason. I have no doubt in my mind that unless Jason pulls something tricky out of his sleeve, it won't take Leon long to pump his chest full of lead. For one thing, despite being a bullet timer, I don't think Jason has any feats against anyone who isn't cannon fodder. His bullet dodging feats are good, but Leon is a master marksman, there really is no comparison to be made, his sheer accuracy is almost perfect, and therefore Jason will find avoiding his shots to be extremely difficult. By extension, not only is Leon incredibly accurate, but he's also incredibly tactical. Shooting the plate over Helena's head and luring the Lickers around are just minor examples, in Degeneration there's a scene where Curtis Miller infects himself with the G-Virus and mutates into an unstoppable rage monster. He tanks a hailstorm of assault rifle fire from a S.W.A.T. team and then kills every single one of them in a matter of seconds. Right when Angela is about to be killed, Leon suddenly bursts in from nowhere with a goddamn grenade launcher in his hands, and you expect him to have a big battle with Curtis now to show how tough he is, but nope. Instead he launches his grenades straight up into the air, and the camera reveals that he spotted a weakened section of the walkway and was able to target it with pinpoint accuracy (another good feat considering the weapon and the distance) and he had timed his shot so unbelievably perfectly down to the very last second so that the walkway would begin to collapse, just as Curtis ran underneath it.

There is only one flaw with this argument that I can see. You assume that the tactical advantages and strategies he uses against zombies and there off spring will work against a trained, certified bullet timer such as Jason. Leon is good, no doubt about it. His skill with a gun is still to be admired and his tactical firing is very impressive but I don't know if that will work against Jason. He is very intelligent and agile fighter, as I showed you above with the jumping feat. He will be able to manuever around better than Leon in the area they are fighting, using his grappling hook to prevent any kind of tactical positioning that Leon is going to try and attempt to hit Jason with. Leon has gone up against his fair share of baddies that aren't just random zombies and has landed shots on them, so I can't say he won't land a shot on Jason....but the fact that he has dodged automatic gunfire from multiple opponents makes me think he will be able to close the gap between him and Leon and utilize his superior hand to hand abilities to overwhelm him.

Here are just a couple of instances where Jason has dodged bullets casually from multiple enemies, closing the gap and taking them down with his superior hand to hand talents:

Now I don't really know if Jason cut the tips of their blades or simply dodged and/or blocked all their bullets. But, the fact remains he was able to defeat them all and was in the air when they all aimed at him. So, my assumption is that he likely did what he always does, dodged the bullets and utlized his abilities to take them down.
Now I don't really know if Jason cut the tips of their blades or simply dodged and/or blocked all their bullets. But, the fact remains he was able to defeat them all and was in the air when they all aimed at him. So, my assumption is that he likely did what he always does, dodged the bullets and utlized his abilities to take them down.
This scene is great because not only does it show Jason defeating a handful of Gotham's Finest but he does this with a curtain hanger and in a towel. Looks as if they hardly were able to pull their triggers before he blitzed and took them all down.
This scene is great because not only does it show Jason defeating a handful of Gotham's Finest but he does this with a curtain hanger and in a towel. Looks as if they hardly were able to pull their triggers before he blitzed and took them all down.

Now on top of all this, Leon's equipment is also going to go a long way in giving him the win over Red Hood. I could be wrong, but I believe that Leon's basic gear is a lot more diverse, and a lot more extensive than Todd's. In the movies Leon is typically seen equipped with an assault rifle and a grenade launcher attachment. Automatic weapons are an advantage in themselves when Todd only uses pistols (a pretty big advantage in fact) but the grenade launcher seals the deal. Jason won't even be able to find respite from Leon's assault behind a wall or a dumpster because Leon can blow away everything in this alleyway with ease. Jason is going to be constantly on the run, and dodging an explosion isn't as easy as it might sound, especially from an already established expert tactician who would probably follow up with a few bursts of perfectly places gunfire to lure you into the exact spot he wants you in to finish you off. On top of that Leon is always using hand grenades of various sorts, ranging from frag, to flash, to even incendiary

I'm going to have to agree with you here. Jason likely won't tag Leon with a bullet and I just can't see Leon tagging Jason either. I also have to agree that Leon does have a better arsenal in terms of ranged equipment. Grenades, automatic firearms, and grenade launchers are for sure going to be a problem for Jason.............

Or so you would think. I actually was waiting for you to bring this point up as I knew it would come up sometime in this debate. The actual amount of damage a grenade can do is for sure going to be a dangerous thing to handle. But, going back to that jumping feat and Jason's grappling hook, he should be able to dodge the majority of the explosion. On top of that....the second that grenade goes off, a lot of things go along with that. The main thing here being the area they are fighting in is going to become a dust filled mess, the grenade likely kicking up a lot of debris and causing both of which to lose sight of each other, if only for a second.

Now....I know you argued that Leon is better in marksmanship. And I argued that Red Hood is better in hand to hand. Both are arguments seem spot on and seem to show the strengths of each character. Yet, one thing that I know for a fact that Jason is better than Leon in is stealth. The second that grenade goes off or any type of explosion, I can see the area they are fighting in being flooded with debris, smoke, and other things that are going to deter Leon's vision. Now, remember all the training from Batman? The Dark Knight? The master of stealth? Jason is easily as good as Batman at disappearing into the fog of war or the darkness....And if said explosions start going off (Which they likely will since both are IC), Jason is going to have an advantage to make use of.

Here is a prime example of what will happen if Leon resorts to explosives and doesn't kill Jason right off the bat:

Now I know Jason is on venom in this scan, but I don't feel like that takes away from the actual part of him sneaking away from Kara. Never once has it been stated that the venom increases Jason's ability to hide and disappear from the scene. This makes me believe that he was simply able to do this on his own,  just as Batman does all the time.
Now I know Jason is on venom in this scan, but I don't feel like that takes away from the actual part of him sneaking away from Kara. Never once has it been stated that the venom increases Jason's ability to hide and disappear from the scene. This makes me believe that he was simply able to do this on his own, just as Batman does all the time.

In theory:

  • Leon uses Explosives, causing debris and smoke
  • Jason uses his impressive agility to dodge and disappears
  • Jason sneak attacks or uses that time to close the gap and take Leon down in hand to hand, where I believe he is better.

Admittedly Leon doesn't use any melee weapons besides his knife, which is a bit out of it's depth going against the All Blades and that monstrous gauntlet. But we'll see, I think Leon is much stronger and more skilled than Jason, so he shouldn't be at a complete loss in close quarters.

This is what I want people to see. The fact that both of our sides have different styles of going at each other. Leon is superior in range and with his ranged weapons but Jason is superior in close combat and with his close combat weapons.

It's my firm believe that the fight will start with a couple of well placed shots by both, before Jason closes the gap via raw speed, agility, distractions, and stealth. At that point, I see Leon simply being outclassed up close due to the weapon advantage Jason has and the amount of training he has received.

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I like this.

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@monsterstomp: Yes they would, How you gon tell me? Neither would die.

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Tag me

There's one instance that I'm waiting to see if nick will mention

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@dajhonmccloud: ...

Eh, I won't derail the thread, but you're wrong, Lol.

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@nickzambuto: Making sure you got this man. Excited to see what you come back with.

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@rolandalderas: I did get it, sorry, I know you're waiting, I'm just really slow :P

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@nickzambuto: Nah it's cool. Take your time. It's the holiday season anyway.

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@rolandalderas:

But we are talking about Jason Todd. A man trained by Batman, All Caste, and the League of Assassins. In no way can I imagine that the training Leon has received from the military puts him on Red Hood's level in terms of hand to hand combat.

Are you so sure? From what I've seen, I'm pretty confident that Leon and Jason are operating on about the same level in hand-to-hand combat. There's no denying that the All Caste is one of the most elite martial arts societies on the face of the globe, but we're comparing it to the whole of the United States of America. As in the whole country, the most powerful superpower in the world. You're saying that with America's vast sphere of influence over the whole Earth, everything it's involved in as a country, and all the citizens it's ever housed, the Department of Defense wouldn't have access to a similar level of knowledge regarding combat and warfare compared to the All Caste?

It's important to remember that Leon isn't just one soldier who was trained among many, he was handpicked by the Government and trained personally in US-STRATCOM to become their ultimate defense against bioterrorism. After Raccoon City was destroyed, the Government threw everything they had into Leon because they knew that his experience and abilities were their best bet at keeping the country safe, meaning that the complete amount of information and knowledge the country had in regards to combat was passed onto Leon so that he could be the very best he could be. No secrets were withheld, so unless you think that the All Caste has access to a wider array of resources than what we already know to be the most powerful organization in the world, then there's no reason to believe Jason's training was any better than Leon's. I would actually say that Jason's training from Batman is more important than his All Caste training, but even then I'm not prepared to put Red Hood over Leon Kennedy. Training is good, but more importantly we must ask what were the fruits of that training? I can basically prove that Leon is highly skilled in or even a master of eight or nine different martial arts styles, so unless Jason can claim the same, we come to the conclusion that Leon did indeed have better training. The list goes:

  • Taekwondo - Jumping Spinning Crescent Kick;
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http://www.blackbeltwiki.com/jumping-spinning-crescent-kick

  • Taekwondo - 540 Roundhouse Kick;
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http://www.blackbeltwiki.com/540-roundhouse-kick

  • · Karate/Krav Maga - Knife hand strike, elbow strikes and hammer blows;
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No need for a link.

  • Judo - Tomoe Nage;
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http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/tomoenage.htm

  • Judo - Ippon Seionage;
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http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm

  • Krav Maga - Elbow strikes;
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No need for a link.

  • Taekwondo/Karate - High Side Kick to Spinning Back Kick;
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  • Akido - Rokkyo technique (elbow control);
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http://www.blackbeltwiki.com/aikido-rokkyo

  • Muay Thai -Round Kick;
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http://www.blackbeltwiki.com/muay-thai-roundhouse-kick

  • Brazilian Jiu jitsu: Guard techniques;
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http://www.ultimatejujitsu.com/learn-jujitsu-techniques/brazilian-jiu-jitsu-techniques/positions/the-guard/

  • Wrestling - a variation of Body Slam;
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  • Wrestling - Bulldog faceburster;
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  • Wrestling - Belly to belly Suplex;
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  • Taekwondo/Muay Thai/Taekwondo - High side kick to Round kick to Reverse roundhouse kick;
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  • Ninjutsu: Defense against knives - disarming techniques;
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  • Ninjutsu - Kenjutsu (swordmanship);

(Videos don't show up in spoilers tags, here's a link)

  • Ninjutsu - Shurikenjutsu (throwing blades);
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  • Ninjutsu or Aikido - defense against firearms - disarming techniques;
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As you've made quite clear, Leon usually relies on his firearms to get the job done and take out his opponents. Jason uses a combination of both guns and hand to hand abilities making him a very hard opponent for Leon to take up close.

That's a slightly misleading comparison, Leon's usual missions involve taking on hordes of monsters and zombies all at once that surround him in melee. His fighting style also revolves around a combination of weaponry and H2H integrated into close combat, if anything I would say he combines the two even more than Jason does. Leon is an expert at alternating between firearms and bare knuckles (or more accurately, firearms and bare feet) at a moment's notice, as anyone who's played RE4 can attest to. That's what the whole game is about after all.

If Jason comes in close with his weapons, he's at a disadvantage because Leon's ninjutsu training has made him an expert at quickly and efficiently disarming his opponents. He did it regularly against the C-Virus zombies in RE6, which is saying a lot because even though they're not skilled, they're all still immensely aggressive superhumans responsible for wiping out entire populations.

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These are just two examples of the various disarming techniques Leon can utilize in RE6. He's extremely skillful to say the least.

Here's another example of Leon disarming and killing a superhuman opponent of their weapon and then killing them with it. This time, he's handcuffed, and the Ganado (which unlike a zombie is strong AND fast) already has him pinned underneath a knife. But before the Plaga host can react, Leon slides over, somehow having gotten the blade into his own hands at the same time, and kills him.

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Now disarming opponent's with superhuman strength is impressive, but Jason isn't a Ganado or zombie, he's a trained fighter. So if you'd rather see Leon against a character with actual training ON TOP of inhuman strength, then let's not forget that his disarming skills were good enough to swat Chris Redfield's rifle out of his hands like it was nothing during RE6, then when Chris immediately went for his sidearm, Leon reacted by grabbing his wrist and harmlessly forcing it back into it's holster, a rather clever tactic.

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If he could disarm a guy like Chris Redfield of BOTH his weapons, who's WAY stronger than Jason, and has WAY more gun skills, then I don't see why Jason Todd would fair any better, especially when Leon actually has the strength advantage in this case whereas he didn't in any of the above scenarios. I mean like I said, Jason is skilled, but it's not impossible to disarm him. It happens fairly frequently, even Tim Drake did it during Death of The Family, and Leon is way more capable than Tim Drake.

Even since a young age, Jason has excelled at hand to hand combat and in some instances has shown to be able to mimic martial arts techniques after seeing them only once.

I acknowledge that Jason is a natural fighter, but despite all of his technical knowledge, so is Leon when you get down to it. He might not be the number 1 best in any particular area, but what makes him and Chris the best of the best in their universe is that at the end of the day, they're survivors, and that is a very dangerous skill, it makes you unpredictable, a wildcard, you can never know exactly what characters like that are capable of. Don't forget that Leon was one of the, like, 12 civilians who managed to escape the Raccoon City outbreak out of over 300,000 total residents, a heavily armed police force, a private militia, and several highly trained Umbrella spies and mercenaries, on his very firstday as a police officer. I think that speaks higher of Leon's natural talent than anything Jason has ever done.

That statement about Jason being able to mimic techniques just by seeing them is also a pretty big exaggeration. Unless there's a whole different side of Jason Todd that I never knew about, he isn't anywhere near that good. Your sole example is a very faulty one. Let me explain.

Able to mimic the technique just from seeing it once. Mind you with no combat training what so ever at this point. It could be noted that Jason seems like he is a natural martial artist. Granted the guy just stood there and laughed, thinking he wouldn't be hurt, but still impressive considering he just saw the technique a few minutes ago.

Your description is totally misleading, Jason had been in that room getting lectured about the technique for who knows how long. He didn't watch someone do it and then replicate it immediately, he was taught, the old fashioned way, at a normal pace. It's right there in the dialogue. Anyone could learn the technique in that situation -- well maybe not anyone, but Leon probably could have. He's able to adapt very quickly after all.

Talia wasn't even able to perform the technique, even though she is a trained assassin. She even comments on Jason's raw skill at that time.

To be fair, Talia al Ghul doesn't really set the bar for street level martial artists. In the Resident Evil universe she's probably comparable to someone like Ada Wong, only weaker and less agile, and Leon was already on her level during Raccoon City through just his pure natural talent, as I mentioned before. By the time of RE4, he's so far above her in knowledge and skill that it's like a joke.

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Even when he was caught off guard and had a gun pressed directly against his spine, Leon easily turned the situation around and even gave her some tips in the process. I picture him doing the same against Talia, and to his credit Jason probably would too. Keep in mind Ada Wong is:

  • Known for being one of, if not THE most skilled and intelligent spies in the business, to the extent that the main antagonist of RE6 is motivated solely by an obsession he developed towards her after seeing her in action.
  • Capable of nearly inhuman feats of acrobatics and flexibility.
  • Strong enough to wrestle with a creature who can throw people half a mile away.
  • Skilled enough to take on the various BOWs of Resident Evil using nothing but her body and wits.
  • Skilled enough to briefly take on a superhuman in midair combat.
  • Highly keen instincts, bordering on at times clairvoyance.
  • Master of stealth.
  • A bullet timer.

So the question becomes, could Jason incapacitate her as quickly and casually as Leon did?

Now remember...this is actually before Jason has received any training from the All Caste, the League of Assassins, or Batman himself.

That scan of adult Jason Todd wearing the Red Hood outfit and fighting a supervillain took place before his training?

A lot of people take this feat as a showing of Jason's strength. Personally I feel that this feat shows how skilled Jason is simply because he was able to flip such a heavy opponent, using her own movement to disable her and bring her down even though she had a significant size advantage against Jason. He was able to do this with a gun in his hand as well as he usually incorporates them in to his close range fighting game. On a side note, this shows just how ruthless Jason really is as well.

To be honest this feat isn't very impressive. Fat Suze weighs about 600 pounds IIRC and doesn't know anything about fighting, flipping her over wouldn't even really be a big deal for a Judo master in real life. Yet you're using this as an example of a situation where, quote "if left only to his hand to hand abilities, Leon would not come out alive."? As in he would have been helpless and stood still while Suze charged him at a speed of two miles per hour? Not likely, sounds to me like you're due for another run in Resident Evil 4. Literally every gif I showed above had Leon in a far more dangerous situation, and in each, Leon survived with nothing but his H2H abilities. Flipping Suze the way Jason did really is more of a strength feat, I'm no expert martial artist or anything but I can see that his technique is almost non-existent, he literally just grabbed her and threw her over his head. Compare that to Leon snapping his body into a Jumping Crescent Kick at a moment's notice when leaped upon by a Novistador only a few feet away, or catching a Bloodshot in midair and turning it's pounce into a body slam before stomping on their exposed ribcage and snuffing out the exposed organs. Against actual superhumans, not just big fat people, that requires pitch perfect technique as well as some pretty quick thinking. I am positive Leon would think of a way to counter Suzie.

How about I take that scan of Jason getting the better of Suze and compare it to a situation Leon found himself in early on in RE4? In the below clip, Leon had just woken up from being knocked unconscious and found himself handcuffed back-to-back with Luis. They're both almost totally immobile, when suddenly an angry Ganado stumbles in, dragging along an ax with it. Already, Leon is in afar less capable position, what with being stuck on the ground, against a far more dangerous enemy. Yet in the short time it takes the Ganado to make it from the door to their position, Leon is able to form a plan with Luis to spread apart just as the Ganado swings, not only dodging the ax, but also tricking it into freeing them from their bonds in the process. While Leon is still stuck on his back, the Ganado recovers and goes for another swing (and I must stress that lying on your back with an ax aimed at your face is a much more dangerous position than standing up while an unarmed woman waddles towards you) but Leon reacts quickly and catches the Ganado with his foot, using it's own power to do the Yoko Tomoe Nage -- Sideways Circle Throw, a variation of the Tomoe Nage I showed you above -- and flip the Ganado into a wall. The difference between his technique and Jason's is that Leon executed his so perfectly that he was able to make the Ganado snap it's own neck upon landing and die, while all Jason did was get Suze on the ground.

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All in all, Leon displayed 1) leadership, 2) the ability to think quickly and clearly in dangerous situations, 3) perfect timing, 4) perfect precision, and 5) great technique, while Jason displayed 1) strength and 2) rather amateurish technique. And the best part -- this is aNOTHING feat for Leon, I wouldn't have even posted it if that scan of Jason wasn't so similar. So tell me again, why exactly wouldn't Leon be able to survive against Suze if he was limited to just his H2H abilities?

This shows Jason's jumping ability . After his All Caste training it seems that he is able to do things that normal humans just wouldn't have any chance of doing. This is also going to be a good way for Jason to avoid Leon and take a high ground against him.

Leon was able to jump almost as high while carrying a several hundred pound lightning rod in his hands.

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Once again I think Agent Kennedy comes away looking superior. Leon wouldn't be surprised by Jason's jumping since he's faced creatures who can do far more, and in the worst case scenario he can match and surpass Jason wherever he goes.

This is a great showing of what I was talking about earlier, Jason Todd being a natural martial artist. He comments that he only trained under Shiva for 6 months yet these Manbats have trained under her for years, yet they still aren't on his level of skill and can't even land a punch on him. Not only that but it shows Jason is very good at using his surroundings to aid him in combat, using the chain to grapple around and attack.

Jason was only trained by Shiva for 6 months, but beforehand he was trained by Batman for years, so I don't really think this instance serves as much of an example of raw natural talent so much as just general skill. Manbats are nearly mindless and in that scan they only attempt fly-bys at Jason, he even says in the scan that they can't throw a simple punch, so I don't really think the feat is as awesome as you do. I mean don't get me wrong, it's impressive, Man-Bats are still superhuman after all, but I think Leon can match it. There's a section of Damnation where Leon is handcuffed and imprisoned by rebel soldiers, and when the real military strolls in Leon is quick enough and smart enough to save one of his kidnappers when the door is suddenly blown open. Then he takes down two armed soldiers with nothing but a kick and a headbutt and escapes the scene. Immediately after (this is the important part) he's ambushed by a group of Ganado, and while still handcuffed mind you, he's able to take them all on while also protecting the aforementioned kidnapper using nothing but improvised weaponry that he took from the Ganados themselves.

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While Jason was very agile in that scan, I think Leon displayed far more resourcefulness and actual technique in his fight. I'll let you decide which is more impressive.

This is one of my favorite showings of just how good Jason's All Caste training really is. In this scene, JASON IS FIGHTING BLIND against Tim Drake, a respectable fighter in his own right. Yet, even with being blinded and stunned by his opponent, with his superior martial arts abilities he is able to handle him with his eyes closed. Impressive, to say the least.

Jason and Tim were just stalling long enough for Tim to figure out a way to escape from Joker, neither of them wanted to fight. The feat is still impressive, but if anything it should serve as more of a disadvantage against Jason since it confirms what I mentioned earlier. He's all instincts and reflex, he wasn't careful, and thus Tim was able to blind him almost immediately after the match started. Like Tim, Leon is also equipped with flash grenades as well as a plethora of other, far more lethal gear, so if Jason slips up again, he'll be in a lot of trouble.

Of course, this feat had to come in. It just shows how great Jason really is in hand to hand skill, able to completely mop the floor with Lady Shiva in a matter of panels. Granted, Shiva's feats in the New 52 are few and far between, but that doesn't take away from just how good this showing really is.

Definitely Jason's best feat, but let's slow down for a second before we proclaim Red Hood as the greatest martial artist in DC. There's a lot of context to take into consideration. First and foremost, Jason knows Shiva. They trained together for a long time, Jason knew her moves, and he knew how dangerous she was, hence his admittance that it would be impossible for him to take her down in hand to hand on his own. But since Jason knew Shiva, he was able to get in his one hit - the shortcut, as he referred to it, which was enough to paralyze Shiva instantly. It's a great showing of technical knowledge, but it doesn't prove that Jason is anywhere near Shiva's tier, in fact it proves the opposite, and since Leon is definitely a lot smarter than Lady Shiva plus Jason doesn't know him as well, the odds of Jason ending this fight the same way are slim.

Doesn't hurt to mention that Jason's physicals are probably around the same as Leon's, Leon likely a bit stronger than Todd is.

Leon's stats are actually way higher than Jason's. Generally speaking, the limitations of Resident Evil peak humans are much looser than they are in Marvel and DC comic books, I mean even Steve Burnside of all people could dodge sniper rifle fire at point blank range. Leon himself has even proven that he is a step above the average peak human, in fact it's made abundantly clear during RE6 that he and Chris are simply in a league of their own. The fact that they can both support several tons of weight with just their own bodies leads me to believe that Leon would actually be closer to Jason while on venom than off it, only difference is that Leon can do it without pumping himself full of steroids (and yes I know Jason was able to surprise Supergirl with his venom strength).

This is a good example of Leon supporting weight that puts him in a different league from what characters like Red Hood and Batman are capable of. In Resident Evil 4, after Del Lag is defeated and starts sinking into the lake, Leon's foot suddenly gets caught in a rope that had been attached to the monster and he starts getting pulled down along with it. But despite being in excruciating pain, Leon is able to resist the pull of Del lago long enough to grab his knife and free himself by cutting the rope binding them together.

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You'd be hard pressed to argue that Jason wouldn't be sucked into the water as soon as Del Lago went limp, the monster was over 65 feet long and almost as wide. There's no way a comic book peak human could support that amount of weight for more than a fraction of a second, but Leon was able to and at the same time think clearly enough to free himself.

If that doesn't prove Leon's peak human is a step above Red Hood's peak human, than consider the fact that he's consistently able to wrestle with actual superhumans using nothing but pure muscle power. Below is a good example, with the Rasklapanje (an extremely powerful miniboss enemy) ambushing Leon from the ceiling and trying to push him into a razor edged fan. Immediately Leon is thrown into an extremely awkward position with almost no leverage, but he's still able to overpower the monster and throw it off.

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Add to that the fact that I question whether or not Jason can even injure Leon at all without the use of weaponry, and we have a clear winner in a hand-to-hand combat scenario. Leon regularly tanks blows not just from superhumans, but from Tyrants, monsters that have more in common with a calm Hulk than a zombie. Despite the fact that Mr. X and the G Monster can be seen oneshotting armored soldiers and bulletproof Lickers left and right with ease, in the same scene they are unable to kill Leon, even when their attacks send him flying like a ragdoll.

The G Monster backhands Leon 50 feet away headfirst into a metal box, he immediately gets back up and continues fighting.
The G Monster backhands Leon 50 feet away headfirst into a metal box, he immediately gets back up and continues fighting.
Leon is blasted off his feet by an RPG and is unable to avoid getting pounded by Mr. X and then thrown into a concrete pillar, he immediately regains his composure and is more angry than injured.
Leon is blasted off his feet by an RPG and is unable to avoid getting pounded by Mr. X and then thrown into a concrete pillar, he immediately regains his composure and is more angry than injured.

These same monsters never had any trouble oneshotting everything else in their path. Leon and Chris Redfield are the only characters in the series who regularly tank hits from these and similar monsters, everyone else dies.

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Even Ada Wong, a high tier peak human in her own right who's probably much stronger than Jason Todd, was knocked out cold after one hit from Derek Simmons, yet when Leon was hit with the same attack he was still completely conscious and was even quick enough to grab hold of the ledge to avoid falling to his death.

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All that said, strength still isn't Leon's specialty. Chris is the tank of the series, Leon's power is his inhuman reflexes. The fact that he regularly takes on Tyrants should be enough to prove that, they're all fast enough to match speed with Albert Wesker and speedblitz bullet timers. Specifically the Tyrant Leon fought in the Eastern Slav Republic, which was able to deflect assault rifle bullets off it's arm, spin around and catch a Licker by the head mid-pounce, and catch a speeding rocket in between it's fingers. All-in-all, these monsters are consistently portrayed as capable of moving at near-supersonic speeds, yet Leon is able to continuously dodge and outmaneuver them even in close quarters combat.

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This quote from the Resident Evil: Code Veronica novel should give you an idea of how fast Tyrants actually are, they're not just lumbering oafs like some people think.

The creature was still almost twenty feet away. Claire held onto the wall, waiting for it to draw closer before running again. She was watching the creature, could see it clearly... but what happened next was like some optical illusion. It dropped its silvery head slightly-

-and was suddenly five feet away, the distance closed in a fraction of a second, and it was bringing its right arm down, parting the air with an audible whoosh.

IKeep in mind Claire Redfield is fast enough to dodge sniper rifle rounds after they're fired and from point blank range. Jason isn't even that fast, so he wouldn't be able to perceive a Tyrant any better than Claire can. That really puts Leon's speed into perspective, the fact that he can run around these things for prolonged periods of time and not get hit (keep in mind that he WAS hit once, as I showed above, but that's because he was knocked off his feet by an RPG and didn't have any time to move).

Although Leon's best showing of reaction time is still the RE4 laser room. It's amazing when you think about it, these erratic beams are racing towards him at high speeds and waving around in every random direction, yet with almost no time to react Leon is able to analyze their paths and figure out just the right way to slip his body through the beams so that they pass by within inches of hitting him.

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I'm positive that this combination of reflexes and agility is out of Jason Todd's ability. When Batman himself was confronted with a field of laser beams that weren't even moving, he needed to take several minutes to plan out each move he would make in order to get through. Leon on the other hand reacted instantly.

There is one instance that I just cannot find where Jason shoots through bullet proof glass through a scratch in the glass itself, not missing a bullet. I wish I could find the scan, but it is in Death of the Family right after that fight with Tim Drake. I'll try and find it later if I need to.

Here you go.

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Your description isn't really what happened. Tim broke or damaged the glass and then Jason just shot a bunch of bullets through it randomly, you can see the rounds are impacting all over Joker's body, not just in one area.

Even if your description was apt, the feat still wouldn't be nearly as impressive as Leon sliding on the ground and landing two precision shots on a speeding metal plate to make it just barely glide over his partner's head.

This one really doesn't bring much to the table. He is shooting zombies. They move maybe at 1 mph and headshotting them would be a simple task for any street level character in my opinion.

Could Jason make shots at that range, at that speed, with that precision, and in that lighting so effortlessly? Something tells me he'd need to resort to the All-Blades in a situation like that. You might disagree with me, and that's fine, but in return I would say that a pistol is one thing, what REALLY puts Leon over the edge in terms of firearm skill is the fact that thanks to his training in addition to natural talent, he is proficient with virtually every weapon in existence. That's quite a testament to his ability, compare it to Batman being a master of XXX amount of martial arts styles and therefore he's a great fighter. In the below gif Leon is able to make an impeccable precision shot from all the way across the platform into Saddler's mutated eye whilst it's waving back and forth erratically, with a weapon as clunky and inaccurate as an RPG. That's actually pretty amazing.

Basically the same thing here. He is shooting zombies. None of which seemed to be moving very fast at all.

There was an army of zombies and Leon was able to carve a path through them for his whole team in near pitch black darkness. Regardless, the instance where he's headshotting them from 50 yards away is the really impressive part.

What I really want to hit on with that showing is one fact: Jason's speed and aim with a small firearm. Before any of those guards with automatic rifles can react, Jason is able to:

Bust out of his disguise

Throw Roy his quiver

SHOOT ROY'S CHAINS OFF

With Roy's help, clean out the whole room of guards before they can even lay a shot onto the duo

Impressive, but there's a few things I'd like to point out. First and foremost, Jason didn't kill all those soldiers before they could react, you can clearly see most of them shooting back, and I guess they simply missed while Jason and Roy picked them all off one by one. Secondly, if you look at the panels, Jason only killed two or three soldiers, the rest have arrows in them.

If you wanna talk speed, Leon was able to match Chris Redfield on the draw after getting thrown through the air. Chris himself is skilled enough with his pistol to beat Albert Wesker on the draw, so I doubt Jason could match pistols with him.

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Leon was also fast and accurate enough to toss his grapple hook a great distance, straight into the muzzle of Krauser's gun, knocking him off aim before he could react. Keep in mind Krauser has superhuman speed and perception, and a grapple hook isn't the most efficient of projectiles.

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I do think that Leon's combination of speed and accuracy outweigh Jason's.

but the fact that he has dodged automatic gunfire from multiple opponents makes me think he will be able to close the gap between him and Leon and utilize his superior hand to hand abilities to overwhelm him.

As impressive as those feats of Jason beating up fodder are, neither of them show him actually dodging any bullets, so I'm still wondering why Leon can't just end this fight as soon as possible with a few bursts of machine gun fire?

Now in the scenario that Leon does let loose a grenade and Jason manages to dodge it, I really don't think this alleyway is packing as much dirt and dust as you seem to think. An explosion will set off a lot of debris, but the idea of the alley becoming a smoke-filled battlefield where Leon can't see at all is just silly. Maybe if they were fighting in a desert filled with black sand, then the explosion would obscure his view, but in this location there's really not going to be much debris in the air.

Now as for the matter of stealth itself, disappearing from Supergirl is impressive, but let's not get carried away. First of all, venom does increase the user's speed just as much as their strength, which would obviously be a factor in escaping an area. Second of all, Supergirl was in the middle of a big paragraph and not even paying attention to Jason while he slipped away. Instead of vanishing feats, I'd be more interested in seeing Jason use stealth offensively against a trained fighter. Training can be just as effective at detecting stealthy opponents as super human senses, that's why Batman can sneak around the JLA but his stealth becomes almost useless when faced with a martial artist of a similar caliber to himself. Leon himself is shown to have exceptionally keen instincts throughout the RE series. At two points during RE4 he was able to anticipate his enemies planning an ambush and prepare for it ahead of time, despite having no actual indication that they were. Most notably, right before his famous knife fight with Krauser, Leon was able to sense the former soldier when he appeared behind him, despite the fact that Krauser didn't actually make any noise.

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So even if Leon doesn't hear or see Jason coming, he's proven that he can dodge and anticipate sneak attacks through nothing but simple intuition in the past. I don't see stealth being much of a factor, especially when Leon has better feats than Jason when it comes to using stealth offensively and against characters with training (sneak attacking Chris Redfield, getting the drop on Ada Wong, sneaking past a group of Lickers)

You assume that the tactical advantages and strategies he uses against zombies and there off spring will work against a trained, certified bullet timer such as Jason. Leon is good, no doubt about it. His skill with a gun is still to be admired and his tactical firing is very impressive but I don't know if that will work against Jason. He is very intelligent and agile fighter, as I showed you above with the jumping feat.

Leon has fought against way more than just brainless zombies. Obviously Jason is intelligent in his own right, but the fact of the matter is, Leon is much smarter. Going against a nation of superhumans alone isn't your typical street level peak human fair, but Leon does it constantly. He's regularly forced to rely on his tactical awareness and survival skills much more than Jason is, and as a result, his abilities are superior. Even when he was still a rookie cop, Leon was taking on situations far outside of Jason's depth and coming out in one piece by constantly thinking on his feet and using whatever options are available to him. Below are excerpts from the RE2 novel where Leon is still on his first day as a police officer, and already has a bullet in his chest and almost no supplies left, then he fights a dinosaur sized crocodile in a narrow sewer, and the immortal William Birkin as the facility they're in is moments away from self destruction.

Right to left
Read from right to left

Jason doesn't have the consistent tactical abilities to say he would have survived in either situation. He can jump around and flip and shoot and use martial arts, but he can't think on his feet in a desperate situation and come up with a plan. I can list off all the impossible situations Leon has survived through his tactical awareness for the rest of the night, but I think it would be better if I just let Ada explain.

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Leon is a highly elite fighter in his own right, but where he and Jason differ is in his constant reliance on his brain to escape situations beyond his pay grade. Jason might know more pressure points techniques and he might have been trained by ninjas, but at the end of the day, he hasn't done what Leon has done. Raccoon City, the Los Illuminados, Tall Oaks, and Langshiang -- impossible situations that no street leveler has the right to take on by himself, and Leon has survived them all. Jason couldn't, whereas I don't think Red Hood has been in many situations that Leon couldn't think of a way out of, so therefore Leon is better.

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nickzambuto

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#39  Edited By nickzambuto
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deactivated-5e291995a18d6

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@nickzambuto: Sorry to nitpick, but in that Batman scan the lasers actually are moving, in a sequence that repeats every 30 seconds.

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MonsterStomp

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#41  Edited By MonsterStomp

Tag me for this please.

Not like it works anyways.

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RolandAlderas

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Ohhhhhhh I totally forgot about this one. Whew....Thank you Monsterstomp. I will get to this when I have more time. I'm sure Nick wants to continue even though it's been a couple of months.

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This is very interesting.

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#45  Edited By AllStarSuperman
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@rolandalderas: bump......again

Lol I know it's been a couple of months but I'm only on a mobile usually. Been meaning to get around to this eventually though.

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Jason Todd beats the snot out of Leon; he may have had training from special forces or from whatever but Red Hood has better training from Batman and others plus has experienced super powered being that could wipe out the Resident Evil world.

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#49  Edited By Lenzo-

There was no need to CaV this.

Jason Todd would beat him handily be it PC or N52. The likes of Kennedy can't simply compare.