#1 Posted by Strider92 (15272 posts) - - Show Bio

Venom, Flash (jashro44):

Vs

Spider-man 2099 (Strider92):

Conditions:

  • Morals On
  • No Prep
  • Random Encounter
  • Flash has two pistols
  • Spider-man has standard gear
  • Win by KO, Death or Incap

Location:

#2 Posted by Strider92 (15272 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 let me know if there is anything you want changed or don't agree with!

#3 Edited by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

It looks good. I'm at my iPhone at the moment so I can't make an opening post at the moment. All though just to make sure the location is unpopulated right?

#4 Posted by Strider92 (15272 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by New_World_Order (11201 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm liking this matchup.

#6 Posted by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be interesting!

#7 Posted by laflux (11085 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Do you even have 2099 feats? Love to see those.

#9 Posted by laflux (11085 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Do you even have 2099 feats? Love to see those.

Dude he has a respect thread for 2099 Spider-Man :P

#10 Edited by Strider92 (15272 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Do you even have 2099 feats? Love to see those.

Yep I got loads. Spider-man 2099, Hulk 2099, Ghost Rider 2099, Daredevil 2099, FF 2099, Dr. Doom 2099 etc... You name it I should have it lol!

#11 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: We should do a 2099 vs Ultimate battle one day lol :P

#12 Edited by Strider92 (15272 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: We should do a 2099 vs Ultimate battle one day lol :P

I'd be up for that at a later date! First i'll need to check they have enough feats. Spider-man being the most popular has a lot, some of the others not so much. I should be able to drum up at least a 3 person team I would think.

#13 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to be spectacular. Definitely keeping my eye on this one.

#14 Posted by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Sorry but school is keeping me a bit busy right now so I wont be able to respond for a few days. Feel free to open up if you want though.

#15 Edited by Strider92 (15272 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Well i'm back!!!! Time to kick this off! Been wanting to debate with Miguel for ages! Good luck!

First of all i'll quickly clear up a few common misconceptions about O'Hara. While Spider-man 2099 is different from 616 his differences are reasonably minor. Granted he doesn't have the wealth of feats 616 Pete has but he does have some very good ones none the less. First off a lot of people believe O'Hara has no spider-sense. Now this is and at the same time isn't true. O'Hara has enhanced senses however these senses are INCREDIBLY good. So good in-fact that they do indeed give him pre-cognition. For example:

As you can see in both circumstances the classic Spider-man spider-sense lines are drawn and in the second scan Miguel knows that missiles are coming at them even before Captain Marvel. So Spider-man 2099 does indeed have a form of spider-sense but his is based on the fact his other senses are so well enhanced he can detect changes in wind movement, color and even radio-waves/electrical impulses.

Now the next thing about O'Hara is that he is no Peter Parker. He has no real qualms about killing. He will try to avoid it from choice but it is always a viable option for him. To illustrate the point he was perfectly prepared to kill Venom 2099:

The only reason he didn't kill Venom then and there was because he saw it was his step-brother. Had it been anyone else Miguel would most likely have gutted him there and then. Another thing to bare in mind is that Venom 2099 killed Miguel's lover (kinda like 616 Gwen Stacy except in place of Green Goblin it was Venom and in place of Gwen it was Dana D'Angelo) suffice to say Miguel hates Venom with a vengeance. History could come into play here vs Flash especially if Miguel recognizes the same traits of a symbiote (which he most likely would being a genetic genius who spent hours studying the Venom 2099 symbiote). When he does recognize Venom he's not going to hold back due to the fact he has a good idea of what it can do and that Venom killed his girlfriend air-go he's gonna go at Flash with everything he has.

Not only does Miguel have a good record fighting Venom 2099 but he also took on 616 Venom (Brock) and gave him a good fight. The Spider-man/Spider-man 2099 crossover is considered cannon and was even acknowledged recently by Dan Slott (who of course is bringing O'Hara back in Superior YAY!!!):

Brock even acknowledged his blows whereas Pete has had a hell of a lot of trouble dealing with Brock in the past. I'm just bringing these up to show that fighting symbiotes especially Venom is something O'Hara has a lot of experience with.

Speed:

Now speed-wise O'Hara is damn close to Pete if not on-par. He dances round gunfire without much trouble on a regular basis:

Given how he can dance round gunfire and move in at the same time Flash's guns aren't going to be a hell of a lot of use.

Strength:

Miguel's strength is quite difficult to determine but it is in the high-end ton range. I would go as far as to say he is stronger than Peter due to the fact he doesn't really hold his strength back. For example he has stopped a punch from Thor 2099 with his hand. Thor even acknowledged he was incredibly strong (Thor 2099 more closely resembles the Ultimate version than the 616 but this is still a good feat given he's still a high level tonner):

To show this wasn't a single outstanding example Miguel then went on to match Thor blow for blow in a sword fight:

Another example of Miguel's strength is decking out Submariner 2099 (Namor) with 1 unrestrained punch:

Suffice to say O'Hara is one strong SOB and doesn't mind cutting loose on people who can take it.

Durability:

Miguel's durability to blunt trauma is VERY high having been flown through 4 brick walls by Thor 2099 with absolutely no sign of discomfort:

He even took a direct hit from Thor 2099's Mijolnir and remained conscious:

Spidey 2099 is one hard guy to KO via blunt trauma.

Thats my opening its your move :p

#16 Posted by Sovereign91001 (3367 posts) - - Show Bio

Should be very interesting two characters I've read a lot about and am big fans of. Best of luck to you both.

#17 Posted by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:

Well i'm back!!!! Time to kick this off! Been wanting to debate with Miguel for ages! Good luck!

First of all i'll quickly clear up a few common misconceptions about O'Hara. While Spider-man 2099 is different from 616 his differences are reasonably minor. Granted he doesn't have the wealth of feats 616 Pete has but he does have some very good ones none the less. First off a lot of people believe O'Hara has no spider-sense. Now this is and at the same time isn't true. O'Hara has enhanced senses however these senses are INCREDIBLY good. So good in-fact that they do indeed give him pre-cognition. For example:

As you can see in both circumstances the classic Spider-man spider-sense lines are drawn and in the second scan Miguel knows that missiles are coming at them even before Captain Marvel. So Spider-man 2099 does indeed have a form of spider-sense but his is based on the fact his other senses are so well enhanced he can detect changes in wind movement, color and even radio-waves/electrical impulses.

I agree his senses are an advantage but I don't think I would call it precognition. He has to wait until after there is a change in the air, electrical impulse, etc before he is aware there is a threat. He seems to be aware of the danger after the danger is coming at him.

Now the next thing about O'Hara is that he is no Peter Parker. He has no real qualms about killing. He will try to avoid it from choice but it is always a viable option for him. To illustrate the point he was perfectly prepared to kill Venom 2099:

The only reason he didn't kill Venom then and there was because he saw it was his step-brother. Had it been anyone else Miguel would most likely have gutted him there and then. Another thing to bare in mind is that Venom 2099 killed Miguel's lover (kinda like 616 Gwen Stacy except in place of Green Goblin it was Venom and in place of Gwen it was Dana D'Angelo) suffice to say Miguel hates Venom with a vengeance. History could come into play here vs Flash especially if Miguel recognizes the same traits of a symbiote (which he most likely would being a genetic genius who spent hours studying the Venom 2099 symbiote). When he does recognize Venom he's not going to hold back due to the fact he has a good idea of what it can do and that Venom killed his girlfriend air-go he's gonna go at Flash with everything he has.

Flash is also pretty good with killing. So I don't think Miguel will have a moral advantage over Flash. Off the top of my head he tried to kill kraven (didn't work because kraven is immortal), he snapped deathaddars and he was willing to put a grenade in Jack O'Lanterns mouth. He also tried to decapitate carnage (which didn't work because current carnage can survive without his head attached to his body).

As far as Miguel recognizing venom I don't think he will unless flash "vulks out". As agent venom Flash doesn't look anything like venom 2099 and all though he did study venom 2099 but thing is it had mutated for years. Which is why venom 2099 had an acidic touch. So when Miguel was studying the venom symbiote it was different then when Flash had it.

2:30 it is stated to have mutated.

Not only does Miguel have a good record fighting Venom 2099 but he also took on 616 Venom (Brock) and gave him a good fight. The Spider-man/Spider-man 2099 crossover is considered cannon and was even acknowledged recently by Dan Slott (who of course is bringing O'Hara back in Superior YAY!!!):Brock even acknowledged his blows whereas Pete has had a hell of a lot of trouble dealing with Brock in the past. I'm just bringing these up to show that fighting symbiotes especially Venom is something O'Hara has a lot of experience with.

When he fought venom 2099 there was noise in the area which did help Miguel win so he did use the symbiotes weakness in that fight (unless there is another fight I am unaware of). The location doesn't really offer much noise for Miguel to create.

As for the fight with Eddie that is really impressive however I think Eddie was toying around a bit. His dialogue seems like he is mocking Miguel a little. I think Flash would take things more seriously then Eddie would. He isn't known for toying around. Also if I'm not mistaken Eddie was going to win his fight with Miguel until he got distracted.

Now speed-wise O'Hara is damn close to Pete if not on-par. He dances round gunfire without much trouble on a regular basis:

Given how he can dance round gunfire and move in at the same time Flash's guns aren't going to be a hell of a lot of use.

I think Flashes gun will play a role here. Most street levelers when they dodge gun fire are dodging the aim so the quality of marksmen does make a difference. And then there is the fact that in this fight the person aiming the gun at Miguel also has super human speed the aim of the shooter in this fight is going to be a lot faster.

Here are some accuracy feats for Flash:

Manages to shoot the wheel of a helicopter with his webbing from quite the distance and also manages to snap the neck of a man who Jack O'lantern was carrying away.

IN terms of speed Flash doesn't really dodge gun fire often mainly because he doesn't need to. He can tank gun fire pretty easily all though he has dodged gun fire before

Dodging a shot from Kravens sniper while drugged.

Ducks a tank missile
Fighting Kraven at speed greater then eyes can track.

So I don't think he is to far behind in terms of speed and his accuracy is pretty good as well. This will make dodging venoms shots more difficult then dodging from regular people shooting at him.

Miguel's strength is quite difficult to determine but it is in the high-end ton range. I would go as far as to say he is stronger than Peter due to the fact he doesn't really hold his strength back. For example he has stopped a punch from Thor 2099 with his hand. Thor even acknowledged he was incredibly strong (Thor 2099 more closely resembles the Ultimate version than the 616 but this is still a good feat given he's still a high level tonner):

To show this wasn't a single outstanding example Miguel then went on to match Thor blow for blow in a sword fight:

I am not quite sure how strong thor 2099 is but is he class 100? According to his comicvine page he was turnned into thor with nano tech? So he doesn't have the powers of the real thor correct? I am not quite sure how strong this would make Miguel however Venom has been able to lift the back end of a tank. He has also shown he can draw blood from red hulk (at least thats what it looks like to me)

In the blue circle there looks like there is a think line coming from red hulks chin. Seems to be meant to be blood.
Lifting the back end of a tank. Also shows some nice agility and some various other abilities.

Another example of Miguel's strength is decking out Submariner 2099 (Namor) with 1 unrestrained punch:

Suffice to say O'Hara is one strong SOB and doesn't mind cutting loose on people who can take it.

I agree he is strong but in this scan it looks like namor 2099 was weakened by his poison bite. I don't think it will have the same affect on venom. Admittedly Death addar and Kraven have poisoned Venom however I think the symbiote has developed a stronger bond or flash became more experienced because he has resisted poisons recently.

Venom resisting poisons

Miguel's durability to blunt trauma is VERY high having been flown through 4 brick walls by Thor 2099 with absolutely no sign of discomfort:

He even took a direct hit from Thor 2099's Mijolnir and remained conscious:

Spidey 2099 is one hard guy to KO via blunt trauma.

Thats my opening its your move :p

Problem with this is flash doesn't have to use blunt force. He has pistols (which as you can see in the above scan where he dodges the tank missile that he can use his tendrils to fire) and he can also shape shift his arm into a bladed weapon if needed.

So flash does have the means to basically one shot spider-man 2099.

Where as flashes durability is good against blunt force and against stabbing.

VS red hulk and takes a hit from him
Survives being stabbed by toxin who is stronger and has longer blades then spider-man 2099

Tanks a massive explosion and then several slashes from Jack.

Point being I think venom can tank spider-man 2099 hits and slashes and all though Miguel can tank venoms hit he cannot tank his slashes. So venom should have the edge in terms of durability and in terms of damage output.

#18 Edited by Strider92 (15272 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

I agree his senses are an advantage but I don't think I would call it precognition. He has to wait until after there is a change in the air, electrical impulse, etc before he is aware there is a threat. He seems to be aware of the danger after the danger is coming at him.

True but he is still aware of the threat before it makes contact. Which is a form of pre-cog. Yes it isn't as effective as Pete's spider-sense but it does the same job.

@jashro44 said:

Flash is also pretty good with killing. So I don't think Miguel will have a moral advantage over Flash. Off the top of my head he tried to kill kraven (didn't work because kraven is immortal), he snapped deathaddars and he was willing to put a grenade in Jack O'Lanterns mouth. He also tried to decapitate carnage (which didn't work because current carnage can survive without his head attached to his body).

As far as Miguel recognizing venom I don't think he will unless flash "vulks out". As agent venom Flash doesn't look anything like venom 2099 and all though he did study venom 2099 but thing is it had mutated for years. Which is why venom 2099 had an acidic touch. So when Miguel was studying the venom symbiote it was different then when Flash had it.

The signs are still there however. A black living suit covering a human host? Honestly as soon as he see's the suit move or form a stabbing weapon it shouldn't be hard for Miguel to put two and two together especially considered he hates it with a vengeance. Some heroes were able to recognize Gargan as Venom when he was the Sinister Spider-man and Flash uses Venom's abilities more blatantly than he did. I won't deny that Flash's morals aren't laxed because they are however we can't forget that Flash practically worship's Spider-man. granted Miguel doesn't wear the same suit but in a fight where neither has seen the other before Flash is going to hesitate the minute he see's someone dressed in a Spider-man themed suit clinging to walls and spinning webs. He would also most likely think it normal that Spider-man didn't hold back on him considering he knows the history between Spider-man and the symbiote. Granted he would eventually work out that Miguel isn't Pete however this is going to cause him to hold back initially. Miguel won't have this problem.

@jashro44 said:

When he fought venom 2099 there was noise in the area which did help Miguel win so he did use the symbiotes weakness in that fight (unless there is another fight I am unaware of). The location doesn't really offer much noise for Miguel to create.

As for the fight with Eddie that is really impressive however I think Eddie was toying around a bit. His dialogue seems like he is mocking Miguel a little. I think Flash would take things more seriously then Eddie would. He isn't known for toying around. Also if I'm not mistaken Eddie was going to win his fight with Miguel until he got distracted.


Miguel did beat Venom 2099 the second time via prep. He created a sonic device to weaken the symbiote. His first fight with Venom 2099 was inconclusive. Initially Venom was shrugging off his attacks until he threw Miguel out of a window causing Miguel to stop holding back. After that Miguel seemed to have the upper hand:

Venom disappeared after that before going on to kill Dana leading to the fight you were referring to with the sonics.

Back to Eddie. Don't get me wrong in a random encounter Miguel isn't wining against classic Brock-Venom. However Eddie did notice his blows when Pete had trouble damaging him. I was just using that to show that Miguel does have experience fighting symbiotes and one of the most durable of them all acknowledge his blows.

@jashro44 said:

I think Flashes gun will play a role here. Most street levelers when they dodge gun fire are dodging the aim so the quality of marksmen does make a difference. And then there is the fact that in this fight the person aiming the gun at Miguel also has super human speed the aim of the shooter in this fight is going to be a lot faster.


Guns only get you so far and are quite easy to disarm or clog with webbing. Especially when O'Hara has this kind of accuracy and reaction:

He manages to snag a spear thrown by someone with super-human stats from a distance centimeters before it hits the guy's eye. Webbing up gun's shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

In terms of physical speed O'Hara is no slouch. For example here. Note how close the train is to hitting the car in the last panel of the second scan:

Despite the fact the train is just about to hit the car Miguel was still able to get to the car, tear off the roof and save both people inside before the train hit it. Thats some pretty impressive speed considering how close the train was and how fast they travel.

Another more impressive feat is fighting Maestro (future Hulk) Hulk was moving as a blur and yet Miguel was still able to keep ahead of him. As Maestro is supposed to be far better than 616 Hulk in almost every aspect (having the mind of Bruce Banner and the sheer force of Hulk combined with their enhancement due to constant exposure to radiation) this is pretty damn good:

@jashro44 said:

I am not quite sure how strong thor 2099 is but is he class 100? According to his comicvine page he was turnned into thor with nano tech? So he doesn't have the powers of the real thor correct? I am not quite sure how strong this would make Miguel however Venom has been able to lift the back end of a tank. He has also shown he can draw blood from red hulk (at least thats what it looks like to me)


Thor 2099 reminded me of Ragnarok. He has all of Thor's powers but they are artificially created rather than granted by magic. He was able to cause and control lightning as well as fly. IIRC he was pretty damn strong not as strong as his 616 counter part but i'm pretty sure he couldn't be far of an 80tonner. Another instance of Spider-man 2099 using his strength was against Maestro:

Yes Captain Marvel hit Maestro too at the same time but Mar-Vell was only capable of lifting 100tons under extreme duress and 50 was a more comfortable mark and given how Maestro is supposed to be far superior to 616 Hulk Spider-man's strength obviously had an impact here.

As Hulk was having trouble with Maestro its no laughing matter to damage him.

@jashro44 said:

I agree he is strong but in this scan it looks like namor 2099 was weakened by his poison bite. I don't think it will have the same affect on venom. Admittedly Death addar and Kraven have poisoned Venom however I think the symbiote has developed a stronger bond or flash became more experienced because he has resisted poisons recently.

It could be argued that is the case however Namor states that the effect is only temporary due to his healing factor so the venom couldn't have weakened him much. You have also brought up my next point for me. Flash has a very bad track record with poisons. As you rightly said both Death Adder and Kraven were able to harm Flash using them:

In your scan the poison in the gas never got directly into his system. He even said the poison was filtered out. In the instances with Death Adder and Kraven the poison was put directly into his body. Miguel's way of putting venom in is via a bite:

It was strong enough to effect the Submariner and even effect a cyborg that didn't have a full human constitution. I'm pretty sure it can effect Flash.

@jashro44 said:

Problem with this is flash doesn't have to use blunt force. He has pistols (which as you can see in the above scan where he dodges the tank missile that he can use his tendrils to fire) and he can also shape shift his arm into a bladed weapon if needed.

So flash does have the means to basically one shot spider-man 2099.

Where as flashes durability is good against blunt force and against stabbing.

True if Flash did stab Miguel in the head or something to that effect it would kill him however he has the speed and experience to prevent that from happening easily. Not to mention we've seen that the symbiote doesn't heal as well as it used too. Penetrative damage can and has effected Flash as seen in his fight with Carnage, Kraven and Death Adder (in the scan I posted you can see him bleeding):

Miguel doesn't shy a way from using his claws:

In my opinion Miguel has the stats to hang with Venom, the willingness to harm him and the means to do it via poison which Venom does have a bad track record with.

#19 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck to you both,

Gonna be a great battle

#20 Posted by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:

True but he is still aware of the threat before it makes contact. Which is a form of pre-cog. Yes it isn't as effective as Pete's spider-sense but it does the same job.

I can agree with this.

The signs are still there however. A black living suit covering a human host? Honestly as soon as he see's the suit move or form a stabbing weapon it shouldn't be hard for Miguel to put two and two together especially considered he hates it with a vengeance. Some heroes were able to recognize Gargan as Venom when he was the Sinister Spider-man and Flash uses Venom's abilities more blatantly than he did.

Well Miguel has seen a lot of stuff so he might not assume it is the symbiote initially. Every symbiote he has encountered has had a really long toung and such. He may just assume it is some military war suit or something. Spider-man himself has seen Flash when he isn't vulked out and he didn't even recognize the symbiote IIRC.

I won't deny that Flash's morals aren't laxed because they are however we can't forget that Flash practically worship's Spider-man. granted Miguel doesn't wear the same suit but in a fight where neither has seen the other before Flash is going to hesitate the minute he see's someone dressed in a Spider-man themed suit clinging to walls and spinning webs. He would also most likely think it normal that Spider-man didn't hold back on him considering he knows the history between Spider-man and the symbiote. Granted he would eventually work out that Miguel isn't Pete however this is going to cause him to hold back initially. Miguel won't have this problem.

I don't think Flashes hero worship for spider-man will get in the way. Miguel doesn't really look like Peter at all. He is spider-themed but besides that and a little bit of red in there costumes Peter and miguel don't look anything alike. Flash should know Miguel isn't Peter. I just don't think they are very similar except in terms of abilities but in terms of look and the way they act they are very different. Also I don't think Miguel will cut loose at the start of the fight. He actually did hesitate against venom 2099 because there was an innocent person in there.

Miguel did beat Venom 2099 the second time via prep. He created a sonic device to weaken the symbiote. His first fight with Venom 2099 was inconclusive. Initially Venom was shrugging off his attacks until he threw Miguel out of a window causing Miguel to stop holding back. After that Miguel seemed to have the upper hand:

Venom disappeared after that before going on to kill Dana leading to the fight you were referring to with the sonics.

I think Venom 2099 is a bit different from Flash. If I'm not mistaken he wasn't really experienced with the symbiote. So he didn't know how to shape shift his body, increase his size, use his tendrils the same way as flash, etc. He did have an acidic touch all though Miguels costume did give him limited protection against that. I think Flash will be a tougher fight due to being more skilled/versatile in the use of his symbiote.

Back to Eddie. Don't get me wrong in a random encounter Miguel isn't wining against classic Brock-Venom. However Eddie did notice his blows when Pete had trouble damaging him. I was just using that to show that Miguel does have experience fighting symbiotes and one of the most durable of them all acknowledge his blows.

Fair enough.

Guns only get you so far and are quite easy to disarm or clog with webbing. Especially when O'Hara has this kind of accuracy and reaction:

He manages to snag a spear thrown by someone with super-human stats from a distance centimeters before it hits the guy's eye. Webbing up gun's shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

Impressive. However it seems like Flash can form guns with the symbiote. So I don't think this would work.

In terms of physical speed O'Hara is no slouch. For example here. Note how close the train is to hitting the car in the last panel of the second scan:

Despite the fact the train is just about to hit the car Miguel was still able to get to the car, tear off the roof and save both people inside before the train hit it. Thats some pretty impressive speed considering how close the train was and how fast they travel.

Another more impressive feat is fighting Maestro (future Hulk) Hulk was moving as a blur and yet Miguel was still able to keep ahead of him. As Maestro is supposed to be far better than 616 Hulk in almost every aspect (having the mind of Bruce Banner and the sheer force of Hulk combined with their enhancement due to constant exposure to radiation) this is pretty damn good:

I don't doubt O'haras speed I just think that there speed is pretty even. And because Flash himself is pretty fast the aim of his gun is going to be moving faster then that of people who Miguel is use to dodging bullets from. So its going to be more difficult.

About mastero he isn't actually better then hulk. IIRC he is only smarter and he is stronger then professor hulk. His most recent fight with 616 savage hulk ended with him getting BFR'd with a thunder clap in A+X #1

Thor 2099 reminded me of Ragnarok. He has all of Thor's powers but they are artificially created rather than granted by magic. He was able to cause and control lightning as well as fly. IIRC he was pretty damn strong not as strong as his 616 counter part but i'm pretty sure he couldn't be far of an 80tonner.

All right. I think in the first scan where he punched Miguel he may have not been using his full strength? He seems surprised that Miguel has super human strength and you uploaded a scan where Miguel seems to be punching thor 2099 and he stands there and tanks his hits so I think its fair to say thor 2099 is stronger by a decent amount. Parrying his hits is also pretty good all though he does get disarmed eventually. I don't think Miguel is quite as strong as thor 2099. Its still very impressive however.

Another instance of Spider-man 2099 using his strength was against Maestro:

Yes Captain Marvel hit Maestro too at the same time but Mar-Vell was only capable of lifting 100tons under extreme duress and 50 was a more comfortable mark and given how Maestro is supposed to be far superior to 616 Hulk Spider-man's strength obviously had an impact here.

I think they mainly just knocked him off balance. I am not sure if he was really hurt. Mastero does only weigh about 600 pounds I think so sometimes if bricks aren't bracing themselves and tightening there muscles they can be knocked down by characters weaker then them for example Peter knocked down the real hulk before but I don't think he was hurt:

It could be argued that is the case however Namor states that the effect is only temporary due to his healing factor so the venom couldn't have weakened him much. You have also brought up my next point for me. Flash has a very bad track record with poisons. As you rightly said both Death Adder and Kraven were able to harm Flash using them:

In your scan the poison in the gas never got directly into his system. He even said the poison was filtered out. In the instances with Death Adder and Kraven the poison was put directly into his body. Miguel's way of putting venom in is via a bite:

It was strong enough to effect the Submariner and even effect a cyborg that didn't have a full human constitution. I'm pretty sure it can effect Flash.

The effects may have been temporary but he had only been just bitten. So he didn't really have much time to recover. And all though he does state it is temporary he doesn't state how long it will affect him. It could take him minutes or maybe even hours to recover for all we know.

As for flashes record against poisons Kraven poisoned him off panel and death addar got him by surprise. Its possible if Flash and the symbiote were prepared the symbiote would have thickened in the area where he was scratched or poisoned and the poison wouldn't have gotten into flashes system and it would have been filtered out with the symbitoe. The symbiote has shown to protect flash on instinct in the deathaddar fight (when he was being chocked) later when flash was more prepared. So I think if Flash did see death addar coming the symbiote would thicken in the area it got slashed in and then filter the poisons out so it doesn't reach flashes system.

True if Flash did stab Miguel in the head or something to that effect it would kill him however he has the speed and experience to prevent that from happening easily. Not to mention we've seen that the symbiote doesn't heal as well as it used too. Penetrative damage can and has effected Flash as seen in his fight with Carnage, Kraven and Death Adder (in the scan I posted you can see him bleeding):

Miguel doesn't shy a way from using his claws:

In my opinion Miguel has the stats to hang with Venom, the willingness to harm him and the means to do it via poison which Venom does have a bad track record with.

The main point is Flash can take a lot more damage from Miguel then Miguel can from him. I think with flashes comparable speed, and the fact that not only is Miguel going to have to dodge flashes slashes but his bullets as well, thrown in with the fact that when flash does create blades with his arm his reach increases, its going to be hard for Miguel to avoid getting hit.

#21 Edited by Strider92 (15272 posts) - - Show Bio

First off sorry its taken so long for me to reply i've been pretty busy recently.

@jashro44 said:

Well Miguel has seen a lot of stuff so he might not assume it is the symbiote initially. Every symbiote he has encountered has had a really long toung and such. He may just assume it is some military war suit or something. Spider-man himself has seen Flash when he isn't vulked out and he didn't even recognize the symbiote IIRC.

Really? When was this? I didn't think Pete had ever seen Flash un-Vulked and considering the reaction the symbiote had to seeing Kaine (instantly Vulking due to its hatred for Peter) it seems unlikely or else Spidey would have been arguing with the Avengers about having Venom on the team.

@jashro44 said:

I don't think Flashes hero worship for spider-man will get in the way. Miguel doesn't really look like Peter at all. He is spider-themed but besides that and a little bit of red in there costumes Peter and miguel don't look anything alike. Flash should know Miguel isn't Peter. I just don't think they are very similar except in terms of abilities but in terms of look and the way they act they are very different. Also I don't think Miguel will cut loose at the start of the fight. He actually did hesitate against venom 2099 because there was an innocent person in there.

He hesitated after beating Venom not prior. Before the host was revealed Miguel was quite prepared to kill it and even continued after the human host was shown but yes I guess as Flash was quite prepared to attack Scarlet Spider that the whole hero-worship is a mute point.

@jashro44 said:

I think Venom 2099 is a bit different from Flash. If I'm not mistaken he wasn't really experienced with the symbiote. So he didn't know how to shape shift his body, increase his size, use his tendrils the same way as flash, etc. He did have an acidic touch all though Miguels costume did give him limited protection against that. I think Flash will be a tougher fight due to being more skilled/versatile in the use of his symbiote.

While he wasn't as experienced Venom 2099 was able to make quite complex piece of equipment like bolas's, stabbing weapons and tendrils. Yes Flash will be a tougher fight due to the reasons you've stated however I think Miguel could pull it off.

@jashro44 said:

I don't doubt O'haras speed I just think that there speed is pretty even. And because Flash himself is pretty fast the aim of his gun is going to be moving faster then that of people who Miguel is use to dodging bullets from. So its going to be more difficult.

About mastero he isn't actually better then hulk. IIRC he is only smarter and he is stronger then professor hulk. His most recent fight with 616 savage hulk ended with him getting BFR'd with a thunder clap in A+X #1

I could be wrong so correct me if thats the case but doesn't Flash rely more on his ability to take damage than his ability to avoid it? He may have the stats but he seems to shy away from using them.

With regards to Maestro I could be wrong but i'm pretty sure he was stronger and more durable than Hulk in general. I'm pretty sure Hulk thunder-clapping him is PIS. Would you be opposed to me calling in AcidSkull to answer the question because I think he will know more about him than both of us combined lol.

@jashro44 said:

Impressive. However it seems like Flash can form guns with the symbiote. So I don't think this would work.

I don't think the symbiote is creating them so much as holding all the pieces of the weapon inside itself and reassembling them when Flash commands it. So disarming him enough should work.

@jashro44 said:

All right. I think in the first scan where he punched Miguel he may have not been using his full strength? He seems surprised that Miguel has super human strength and you uploaded a scan where Miguel seems to be punching thor 2099 and he stands there and tanks his hits so I think its fair to say thor 2099 is stronger by a decent amount. Parrying his hits is also pretty good all though he does get disarmed eventually. I don't think Miguel is quite as strong as thor 2099. Its still very impressive however.

Agreed I don't think he is as strong as Thor 2099 but from what i've seen of Miguel he's a decent amount stronger than Pete without straining and Pete without his spider-sense looked quite impressive Vs Vulked Venom.

@jashro44 said:

I think they mainly just knocked him off balance. I am not sure if he was really hurt. Mastero does only weigh about 600 pounds I think so sometimes if bricks aren't bracing themselves and tightening there muscles they can be knocked down by characters weaker then them for example Peter knocked down the real hulk before but I don't think he was hurt:

And yet Pete has still gone all out on Hulk other times and been unable to get him to budge as have stronger opponents. Also in that scan Hulk is perched in quite precarious position. I think that was mainly balance more than strength. For example someone who can't normally even make you budge can still throw you of balance if you are in a position that slightly unsound. Pretty sure the tip of a giant boulder or whatever that is qualifies.

@jashro44 said:

As for flashes record against poisons Kraven poisoned him off panel and death addar got him by surprise. Its possible if Flash and the symbiote were prepared the symbiote would have thickened in the area where he was scratched or poisoned and the poison wouldn't have gotten into flashes system and it would have been filtered out with the symbitoe. The symbiote has shown to protect flash on instinct in the deathaddar fight (when he was being chocked) later when flash was more prepared. So I think if Flash did see death addar coming the symbiote would thicken in the area it got slashed in and then filter the poisons out so it doesn't reach flashes system.

It is possible however its something very hard to predict in Miguel's case. The last thing Flash is going to expect is for Miguel to bite. He can even poison via using his saliva:

Granted I don't see Flash attempting to kiss Miguel (at least I hope not) the point is that even on a cyborg that isn't even fully human a simple kiss was enough to put her out of the running. Meaning that Miguel's venom is damn potent.

@jashro44 said:

The main point is Flash can take a lot more damage from Miguel then Miguel can from him. I think with flashes comparable speed, and the fact that not only is Miguel going to have to dodge flashes slashes but his bullets as well, thrown in with the fact that when flash does create blades with his arm his reach increases, its going to be hard for Miguel to avoid getting hit.

He can take more damage than Miguel however Miguel has a much easier way of hurting him due to the fact Flash tanks damage and has quite a poor track record against poisons that don't have the same feats putting down foes as Miguel's ones. Not to mention Miguel being physically more imposing than Pete throws him another advantage and as I said earlier Pete without his spider-sense looked pretty impressive Vs Flash.

#22 Posted by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: sorry this has taken me so long to reply. I will try and get back to you tonight.

#23 Posted by Strider92 (15272 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Don't worry we've all got other priorities :) take your time i'm in no hurry.

#24 Edited by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Again I would like to apologize that this took me so long.

Really? When was this? I didn't think Pete had ever seen Flash un-Vulked and considering the reaction the symbiote had to seeing Kaine (instantly Vulking due to its hatred for Peter) it seems unlikely or else Spidey would have been arguing with the Avengers about having Venom on the team.

IIRC it was during carnage USA. I never read the whole series because my comic store messed up and didn't get issues 3 and 4 for me (the issues spider-man sees Flash....) however I have seen the scans. Spider-man didn't seem to recognize the symbiote.

Again I haven't read this issue admittedly all though I did read the last issue (it was a while ago so I would have to double check to make sure I am recalling things correctly) but I don't recall Peter really mentioning anything about venom so I guess he never really recognized him (or heard venom tell the base that he was venom). I think he would have said something about it especially since he thought venom was responsible for kidnapping Betty and tying her to a bomb.

He hesitated after beating Venom not prior. Before the host was revealed Miguel was quite prepared to kill it and even continued after the human host was shown but yes I guess as Flash was quite prepared to attack Scarlet Spider that the whole hero-worship is a mute point.

Well yes but wasn't the only reason he cut loose on venom 2099 in the first place because he was mad his girlfriend died? I am sure Miguel will go all out eventually but I am unsure abot him doing it right off the bat.

While he wasn't as experienced Venom 2099 was able to make quite complex piece of equipment like bolas's, stabbing weapons and tendrils. Yes Flash will be a tougher fight due to the reasons you've stated however I think Miguel could pull it off.

Fair enough.

I could be wrong so correct me if thats the case but doesn't Flash rely more on his ability to take damage than his ability to avoid it? He may have the stats but he seems to shy away from using them.

Yea he doesn't use his speed as much as Peter does. He does use it to an extent though but he does sometimes tank stuff that he should probably be able to avoid. However the main point is that Flash is capable of keeping up and tagging Miguel if needed.

With regards to Maestro I could be wrong but i'm pretty sure he was stronger and more durable than Hulk in general. I'm pretty sure Hulk thunder-clapping him is PIS. Would you be opposed to me calling in AcidSkull to answer the question because I think he will know more about him than both of us combined lol.

IIRC Mastero really only fought professor hulk. Professor hulk has a higher base level strength then savage hulk does but he doesn't increase his strength with anger. I think Savage hulk could beat him. All though yea it is probably a better question for acidskull.

I don't think the symbiote is creating them so much as holding all the pieces of the weapon inside itself and reassembling them when Flash commands it. So disarming him enough should work.

Yea your probably right. All though I don't think disarming him will be easy.

Agreed I don't think he is as strong as Thor 2099 but from what i've seen of Miguel he's a decent amount stronger than Pete without straining and Pete without his spider-sense looked quite impressive Vs Vulked Venom.

My main issue with the thor 2099 feat is trying to determine how much strength thor 2099 was using. We agree he is stronger and he wasn't using his full strength initially against Miguel? So its hard to determine how much strength he was using.

As for the spider-man vs venom battle in venom 3 and 4 Flash was still recovering from his fight with Kraven and he also wasn't fighting back for a large portion of the fight IIRC. He was letting spider-man hit him around and when he decided to fight back he almost one shotted Peter but then stopped himself from ending the fight. He then tossed a car which Peter tanked and ran away in order to save Betty. So I think Flash got the better of Peter in that showing.

And yet Pete has still gone all out on Hulk other times and been unable to get him to budge as have stronger opponents. Also in that scan Hulk is perched in quite precarious position. I think that was mainly balance more than strength. For example someone who can't normally even make you budge can still throw you of balance if you are in a position that slightly unsound. Pretty sure the tip of a giant boulder or whatever that is qualifies.

I agree Spider-man cannot hurt hulk. What I meant to say was I think its similar to what Miguel did to Mastero. He webbed up his eyes which distracted Miguel and then hit Mastero while he was distracted.

I usually just assume when a street leveler knocks down a class 100 that they are just knocking them off balance unless there is blood. All though even when there is blood I still find it a bit questionable as artists have been known to get carried away from time to time.

It is possible however its something very hard to predict in Miguel's case. The last thing Flash is going to expect is for Miguel to bite. He can even poison via using his saliva:

Granted I don't see Flash attempting to kiss Miguel (at least I hope not) the point is that even on a cyborg that isn't even fully human a simple kiss was enough to put her out of the running. Meaning that Miguel's venom is damn potent.

Well Miguels poisons maybe potent but even in the Kraven showing Flash did state he should have been dead so Kravens poisons are lethal as well. So even if they do work they might slow Flash down but I don't think they will stop him. And thing is if Miguel uses poisons he has to get in close, and if Flash turns his hand into a blade that involves getting in close and within Flashes reach which is risky IMO.

He can take more damage than Miguel however Miguel has a much easier way of hurting him due to the fact Flash tanks damage and has quite a poor track record against poisons that don't have the same feats putting down foes as Miguel's ones. Not to mention Miguel being physically more imposing than Pete throws him another advantage and as I said earlier Pete without his spider-sense looked pretty impressive Vs Flash.

I disagree that Miguel has a easier way of hurting venom. Flash can shape shift his arms into blades that are pretty long so this should allow him to bypass Miguels durability without much trouble. He shouldn't have any moral issues using it on Miguel considering he doesn't know Miguel. And the fact that venom will be taking more damage could lead Miguel to think that the speed edge (if he has a speed edge) is more significant then it is, which increases the likely hood of him being tagged. I did all ready talk about the spider-man fight above however its also worth noting that Flash did very well against Kaine who is a physically superior version of spider-man without spider-sense.