#1 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Battle of Spock vs Miles.

Random Battle

In Character

Start 100 feet away.

#2 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2985 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Not gona lie. I thought you meant the Star Trek one.

#3 Edited by jashro44 (23799 posts) - - Show Bio

Everything looks good. I will let you open as I have a few things to respond to first.

#4 Posted by ImmortalOne (3519 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Not gona lie. I thought you meant the Star Trek one.

I was wondering how many would think that lol.

@jashro44 to start with.

Miles only has 20 odd comics. Not a super whole lot. So Its gonna be short.

To start with is Stats and powers.

Stats and Powers

Miles Strength and Durability feats are not yet as close as Peters. Add to that Miles is a solid 3 years younger than Peter was. Age 13 while start fighting crime after Peter turn 16 when he died. As such i do not expect his stats be anywhere near Peters.

Spock on the other hand is as strong as 616 Peter at the age of 25ish. Stats wise is going to Spock. However in a random encounter gives Miles a great chance to win thanks to raw powers.

Spock: Super Strength, Durability, Agility, Speed, Webbing, Spider Sense, Wall Crawl, and some minor things I noticed on his Suit of the Razor Claws.

Miles: Super Strength, Durability, Agility, Speed, Webbing, Spider Sense, Wall Crawl, Invisibility, and Venom Sting.

Skill

As for training, Spock has all Peters memories, however in combat shows very little of the same skill like Way of the Spider and experience of original Pete. Many early fights of Spock were him getting frustrated and re approach the battle with a prep point device. Spock being quite the prep master.

Miles skill in early issues was non. He is a 13 year old boy given powers. his first month is all trial and error. He improved alot when his friend got all the recorded battles of Peter which Miles studied and practiced. Miles also has gotten alot of skill by not only fighting Peter's villains, but from being involved in the worst war America has ever had, fighting on the front line. He also been getting some side training from Captain America and Spider Woman.

Another advantage of Miles and Spock is they have a feel of each other powers already. Thanks to Spider Men crossover.

So with that said and out of the way, we also have In Character. Miles already beaten Peter holding back before when Miles got angry having his mask removed, and I just do not know how Spock morals with kids are. So you can enlighten me. I have a feeling both will not be trying to murder the other in character.

Alright let me throw some examples of that Skill in training out there. Like I said Miles skill and stats are not a huge plot fall. I might learn more of Spock from ya, as I know him now he is not super outclassing Miles.

Miles first encounter with a super human of any kind. it was a very upset Spider woman who was offended by someone posing as Peter right after he dies. As seen, this 13 year old kid had no clue or skill of either his own limits and powers.

So this means Spock win easy right? He will just beat Miles the same way? Lets see.

Miles very first battle is against Electro. Who in this battle was spanking the Ultimates.

His second battle is with Omega Red. Same mutant who gave a season Peter a hard time every time.

Beats the Ringer while learning his own limits still.

Now does this prove Miles so skilled? No. However it shows how well he adapted early on to foes that gave the more experience Peter problems.

I believe Miles has the Power Set and skill enough to win this.

#6 Posted by dondave (38809 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Posted by dondave (38809 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be good

#8 Edited by jashro44 (23799 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Just reminding you I haven't forgotten about this. I should be able to get a response up tomorrow.

#9 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by jashro44 (23799 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Miles Strength and Durability feats are not yet as close as Peters. Add to that Miles is a solid 3 years younger than Peter was. Age 13 while start fighting crime after Peter turn 16 when he died. As such i do not expect his stats be anywhere near Peters.

Spock on the other hand is as strong as 616 Peter at the age of 25ish. Stats wise is going to Spock. However in a random encounter gives Miles a great chance to win thanks to raw powers.

Spock: Super Strength, Durability, Agility, Speed, Webbing, Spider Sense, Wall Crawl, and some minor things I noticed on his Suit of the Razor Claws.

Miles: Super Strength, Durability, Agility, Speed, Webbing, Spider Sense, Wall Crawl, Invisibility, and Venom Sting.

There are a few other things about spock that should be noted.

Here it is shown that Otto has impact webbing and the back of his head is also armored with carbonaridium. Also worth noting how Peter remarks that Otto uses webbing in a way he never considered.

Another advantage Otto has is the ability to call his spider-bots with the press of a button:

There sort of like terrifics T-spheres. Otto made them to patrol the city all though based off the recent arc they do seem to be able to combat.

Uploading this to show how damaging they can be. But here they bust down a roof. Admittedly they were being controlled by someone who isn't suepioer but there still his robots.

Now admittedly they wont show up instantly as there not near him at all times (he designed them to watch the city). And he hasn't used them often for combat. However I can see him calling them for help in 1 or 2 scenarios so they are still a factor. So Miles could possibly find himself getting out numbered in this fight if he drags it on for too long.

So Superior does have a bit more going for him then you would think.

As for training, Spock has all Peters memories, however in combat shows very little of the same skill like Way of the Spider and experience of original Pete. Many early fights of Spock were him getting frustrated and re approach the battle with a prep point device. Spock being quite the prep master.

I wouldn't necessarily say he got frustrated. All though you are right he doesn't have Peters way of the spider. And he isn't as skilled as Peter is.

Miles skill in early issues was non. He is a 13 year old boy given powers. his first month is all trial and error. He improved alot when his friend got all the recorded battles of Peter which Miles studied and practiced. Miles also has gotten alot of skill by not only fighting Peter's villains, but from being involved in the worst war America has ever had, fighting on the front line. He also been getting some side training from Captain America and Spider Woman.

Otto may not be as skilled as Peter per say but he does have some decent showings. I will post them later though.

Another advantage of Miles and Spock is they have a feel of each other powers already. Thanks to Spider Men crossover.

To be honest Spock may not remember the events of spider-men as he did erase Peters memories. All though with that said there wont be any surprises.

Ottos goggles have shown that they can tell him the powers and abilities of other super humans. So with a mere glance he will know Miles powers.
Also he has shown that his goggles can detect bio energy build ups. So Otto can determine when Miles will fire his venom blasts specifically. So even if his spider-sense isn't enough (it should IMO) his goggles will further aid him in avoiding Miles venom sting. He wont get surprised by them like Peter did.

So with that said and out of the way, we also have In Character. Miles already beaten Peter holding back before when Miles got angry having his mask removed, and I just do not know how Spock morals with kids are. So you can enlighten me. I have a feeling both will not be trying to murder the other in character.

You are correct in assuming this admittedly. Otto doesn't go full out on children due to the fact he took abuse as a child from his dad who beat him. However he doesn't need to full out. I showed above that Peter himself remarked Otto was more creative in the use of his webbing and he carries impact webbing with him. Peters regular webbing is a good deal stronger then steel and can hold characters who are as strong or even stronger then him. However Impact webbing was designed to be stronger. So Otto should be able to restrain miles with his webbing.

Alright let me throw some examples of that Skill in training out there. Like I said Miles skill and stats are not a huge plot fall. I might learn more of Spock from ya, as I know him now he is not super outclassing Miles.

Miles first encounter with a super human of any kind. it was a very upset Spider woman who was offended by someone posing as Peter right after he dies. As seen, this 13 year old kid had no clue or skill of either his own limits and powers.

So this means Spock win easy right? He will just beat Miles the same way? Lets see.

Miles very first battle is against Electro. Who in this battle was spanking the Ultimates.

The fight between Electro and Miles doesn't quite show much here to say he can beat Otto. Miles used his invisibility to take down electro. This wont work on Otto due to his spider-sense. He will be able to track Miles while Miles is invisible, unlike electro. He did dodge lightning however Otto has also done this. He did it from an amped up anti-matter electro and he wasn't expecting it either.

We know Otto is faster and unlike electro he will still be able to fight Miles while Miles is using his invisibility.

His second battle is with Omega Red. Same mutant who gave a season Peter a hard time every time.

Otto stomps hob goblin (one of 616 Peters tougher foes), then saves mysterion (a fake mysterio) from a sniper bullet after it was fired, and then stomps punisher.

So Superior has also faced some of Peters foes and he has done very well. He has even stomped some of Peters rogues.

Beats the Ringer while learning his own limits still.

All though Miles does win, he was also tagged by his rings. Otto has all ready faced better marksmen. I showed him above stomping the punisher. He also did dodge machine gun fire fired at him by the punisher as well in the same story.

Otto dodging punishers bullets.

So Otto has all ready dodged attacks from suepioer marksmen.

Superior Spider-man VS Cardiac. Otto was winning quite handily and the only reason he had trouble was because Peter was interfering. He doesn't have that issue anymore as he has removed Peter. I would say Cardiac is also better then Ringer is as well.

Now does this prove Miles so skilled? No. However it shows how well he adapted early on to foes that gave the more experience Peter problems.

I believe Miles has the Power Set and skill enough to win this.

Problem is all though Otto may not be Peter Parker he still better in the use of his powers then Miles is. And he has better physicals so he is likely going to win here.

Otto is simply the suepioer spider-man of this fight.

#11 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

There are a few other things about spock that should be noted.

Here it is shown that Otto has impact webbing and the back of his head is also armored with carbonaridium. Also worth noting how Peter remarks that Otto uses webbing in a way he never considered.

Another advantage Otto has is the ability to call his spider-bots with the press of a button:

There sort of like terrifics T-spheres. Otto made them to patrol the city all though based off the recent arc they do seem to be able to combat.

Uploading this to show how damaging they can be. But here they bust down a roof. Admittedly they were being controlled by someone who isn't suepioer but there still his robots.

Now admittedly they wont show up instantly as there not near him at all times (he designed them to watch the city). And he hasn't used them often for combat. However I can see him calling them for help in 1 or 2 scenarios so they are still a factor. So Miles could possibly find himself getting out numbered in this fight if he drags it on for too long.

So Superior does have a bit more going for him then you would think.

Interesting, Spider Helpers, however I think a Good counter would be the Venom Sting.

It can blow up any kind of machinery with a touch.

It is also Conductive through webbing and other materials.

this could disable Web Shooter, Tech of any kind on Otto, and Spider Bot.

Miles has alot going for thanks to the Venom Sting.

Venom Sting

This is the best power a Spider Man character can ask for. Works by utilizing a undentified energy generated by Miles body that causes immense pain. It has KOed super Human durable beings with a touch. however it also has a second delay reaction at times. This Venom Sting works on anything whether Organic or Non Organic.

1) Blows up a Lego set.

2) Conductive through webbing. This larger Venom sting also KOed 616 Peter for hours.

3) KOes the Super Durable Mutant Omega Red.

4) Destroys the Mech Suit Rhino.

5) KOes the Super Durable and High Pain Tolerance Scorpion.

6-7) One shots Venom.

Anything can be taken down with a touch which makes Miles very dangerous foe for anyone.

What gives him a further edge is his own webbing and Invisibility.

Invisibility

This Spider man has a new power in Stealth. A useful ability he uses in Combat.

1) Goes Invisible on Cops.

2-3) Goes Invisible on 616 Peter, then uses it for a sneak attack.

4) Uses it on Prowler to get some space and counter attack.

Webbing

Miles like Peter does not skimp of the Web Spam.

Miles web spamming SHIELD troops while dodging bullets.

However a big thing to take into account is Spider Sense.

Spider Sense

Just like Peter, Miles has a Spider Sense to warn of general danger.

1-2) Warns him of the Cops ready to shoot.

3-4) This is to show it even works on other Spider Man powered people, like Spider Woman who is a near exact clone of Peter.

Miles has this benefit too., and unlike then knows what it is for now.

To be honest Spock may not remember the events of spider-men as he did erase Peters memories. All though with that said there wont be any surprises.

Really? I though Spock had all of Petes memories.

You are correct in assuming this admittedly. Otto doesn't go full out on children due to the fact he took abuse as a child from his dad who beat him. However he doesn't need to full out. I showed above that Peter himself remarked Otto was more creative in the use of his webbing and he carries impact webbing with him. Peters regular webbing is a good deal stronger then steel and can hold characters who are as strong or even stronger then him. However Impact webbing was designed to be stronger. So Otto should be able to restrain miles with his webbing.

Yes, he could restrain miles in webbing, However, why would the Webbing stick to Miles suit when him own webbing and Spider Womans does not? If webbed up, Miles can go stealth and wiggle out. Otto like wise has to be careful of being webbed up with Webbing strong enough to hold foes stronger than Ultimate Green Goblin.

Both have a Webbing Advantage here. However the biggest advantage is till with the Stealth. Hard to attack or web someone you cannot see.

Also Miles has great reflex against Webbing.

Here he is just trying to talk to Peter and dodges a web easy. He then continues to praise Peter who attacked him. This was also before Miles own training.

Webbing is not a issue.

The fight between Electro and Miles doesn't quite show much here to say he can beat Otto. Miles used his invisibility to take down electro. This wont work on Otto due to his spider-sense. He will be able to track Miles while Miles is invisible, unlike electro. He did dodge lightning however Otto has also done this. He did it from an amped up anti-matter electro and he wasn't expecting it either.

To be fair, the reason Miles won was becuase of the SUPERIOR combo of Venom Sting and Stealth.

You say this will not work on Otto spider Sense, I see no proof why not. It took Peter YEARS to master Spider Sense as a form of precog. To Otto, I see no difference than warning him of being in immediate danger and no evidence where or how a attack will come.

His spider sense is no better than Ben Reilly from what I seen.

So Superior has also faced some of Peters foes and he has done very well. He has even stomped some of Peters rogues.

All though Miles does win, he was also tagged by his rings. Otto has all ready faced better marksmen. I showed him above stomping the punisher. He also did dodge machine gun fire fired at him by the punisher as well in the same story.

Again Ringer has hundred of Rings that are homing in and locking on Miles. Its almost Impossible to dodge. Harder than say gun fire from SHIELDs best, or Warmachine suits.

Speed and Agility

Miles is Proven as Agile and as Peter as well.

1) Miles moving to fast to be hit by multiple trained Hydra, Hydra who are professionally train by Nick Fury himself.

2) Miles dodges the very highly train SHIELD, and you can see moves as fast as the bullets are traveling.

3) Moves faster than the accurate Targeting Computers and fire power of these Warmachine Suits.

Miles skill has improved alot since those scans i showed ya from above.

Problem is all though Otto may not be Peter Parker he still better in the use of his powers then Miles is. And he has better physicals so he is likely going to win here.

Otto is simply the superior spider-man of this fight.

In Stats and Gear yes. Not in powers or skill. Spock does best work as a prepper. As Otto Octavius, he simply is not the great H2H fighter as Pete was.

And even in Stat department, Miles is packing heavy.

Strength

While at the moment Miles does not have the same strength feats as Peter he does have couple of ton strength.

1-2) KOes Giant woman with a punch to the face.

3) Lifts a heavy frame Cop Car over his head with ease.

Durability

Miles Durability as a 13 year old is nothing short of incredible.

1) Miles takes kicks from Batroc who can crush Concrete Roads with his leg power.

2-3) Miles takes a vicious slam from Giant woman that only stuns him. Giant Woman has shown to lify easy 60+ tons, so winding her hand back and slamming Miles with all her strength is a major feat.

4-5) Miles tanks a large Explosion at point blank range.

6) Miles tanks another Large Explosion in his face.

7) Scorpion has Super Human Strength and Durability. As seen he can crush super hard concrete floors with his fist and leave craters. He punches Miles in the face and it just causes Miles to see stars for a second.

So in now way is Spock KOing Miles in a H2H fight which this will be as Spock scans and feats show. Miles most dangerous in H2H because of that dreaded one touch wonder Venom sting and Invisibility making it that much harder. For examples...

This is the battle of Prowler and Scorpion, just to show how skilled Prowler is and how Super Human Scorpion is. After this battle Prowler decides to enlist Miles help. He then gets in a scuffle with Miles to test his nephew out. Miles stats were way too much.

Miles fights the Super Human Scorpion and his little King Pin empire. Once he realize the Durability, Venom Sting.

Here Miles proves that he will do what it takes to put someone down, even his Uncle the Prowler who is the greatest Thief in America and proven quite the skilled fighter with the Tinkerers best toys.

All these feats are still a untrain and new to his powers Miles. I have not touch his best stuff yet.

#12 Posted by jashro44 (23799 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Interesting, Spider Helpers, however I think a Good counter would be the Venom Sting.

It can blow up any kind of machinery with a touch.

It is also Conductive through webbing and other materials.

this could disable Web Shooter, Tech of any kind on Otto, and Spider Bot.

Miles has alot going for thanks to the Venom Sting.

Problem with this is there are literally thousands of spider bots. They wont all show up at once granted but they will show up in numbers. And they can crawl up walls. They can attack from different angles on the bridge. So Miles is going to be venom stinging in all sorts of directions if Otto does call the spider-bots. His spider-sense will be constantly going off as well and Miles has said that this is something that annoys him. Not to mention the bots can distract from the real threat of Otto if it really comes down to it.

Venom Sting

This is the best power a Spider Man character can ask for. Works by utilizing a undentified energy generated by Miles body that causes immense pain. It has KOed super Human durable beings with a touch. however it also has a second delay reaction at times. This Venom Sting works on anything whether Organic or Non Organic.

1) Blows up a Lego set.

2) Conductive through webbing. This larger Venom sting also KOed 616 Peter for hours.

3) KOes the Super Durable Mutant Omega Red.

4) Destroys the Mech Suit Rhino.

5) KOes the Super Durable and High Pain Tolerance Scorpion.

6-7) One shots Venom.

Anything can be taken down with a touch which makes Miles very dangerous foe for anyone.

What gives him a further edge is his own webbing and Invisibility.

The venom sting is powerful however Miles has said that he sometimes forgets he has these cool powers in his fight with prowler. He then specifically stated later on in his fight with venom that he forgets about his venom sting. So I don't see him doing this right off the bat. And as I said above Superior can detect bio energy build up which will allow him to determine when Miles is using a venom sting (since his venom stings are bio electricity) and when Miles is doing something else. This can further help Otto avoid Miles attacks.

Here is Miles stating that he forgets about his venom sting:

Invisibility

This Spider man has a new power in Stealth. A useful ability he uses in Combat.

1) Goes Invisible on Cops.

2-3) Goes Invisible on 616 Peter, then uses it for a sneak attack.

4) Uses it on Prowler to get some space and counter attack.

I want to address the one with 616 Peter but the reason that worked is because Miles never bothered to threaten Peter while he was invisible. He just stood there and watched him. He attacked Peter after tugging on his rope but Peter all ready knew he was there. So the reason Peter never detected him was because he wasn't in danger until after miles had turned visible. And the reason Peter never bothered to track Miles with spider-sense was because he never knew about his invisibility. In order for Peter to use spider-sense he has to focus it which he never attempted to do because he never knew about Miles invisibility. Something I have all ready shown isn't going to the case for Spcok due to his tech.

As I said above during his fight with prowler he used invisibility to hide from prowler and he told prowler that sometimes he forgets about his powers. Seems like he sometimes forgets about invisibility and the venom sting so all though it is a factor I doubt Miles will start the fight invisible. This gives Otto a chance to end it before it comes down to that.

Webbing

Miles like Peter does not skimp of the Web Spam.

Miles web spamming SHIELD troops while dodging bullets.

However a big thing to take into account is Spider Sense.

Spider Sense

Just like Peter, Miles has a Spider Sense to warn of general danger.

1-2) Warns him of the Cops ready to shoot.

3-4) This is to show it even works on other Spider Man powered people, like Spider Woman who is a near exact clone of Peter.

Miles has this benefit too., and unlike then knows what it is for now.

These are advantages Otto has as well. Only difference is his are better IMO. As I mentioned above he has impact webbing which is suepioer to Miles webbing. I would also say his spider-sense is annoying. Miles stated that because he was able to see the giant woman his spider-sense was pointless which tells me that his spider-sense isn't something that guides his movements and tells him where to dodge or where the threat is coming from. I will go more into this later in the post.

Really? I though Spock had all of Petes memories.

He had to remove them because Peters memories were forming a conscious of there own and were beginning to take over spider-mans body.

Yes, he could restrain miles in webbing, However, why would the Webbing stick to Miles suit when him own webbing and Spider Womans does not? If webbed up, Miles can go stealth and wiggle out.

Your above scans show spider-woman restraining Miles and she releases him. All though I do have evidence that 616 spider-mans webbing will stick to Miles cloths:

Peter using his webbing to remove Miles mask.

Otto like wise has to be careful of being webbed up with Webbing strong enough to hold foes stronger than Ultimate Green Goblin.

When was Miles webbing used to restrain someone stronger then ultimate green goblin? Also keep in mind Otto has claws so he can cut his way out of webbing.

Both have a Webbing Advantage here. However the biggest advantage is till with the Stealth. Hard to attack or web someone you cannot see.

Otto has spider-sense. He will detect Miles while Miles is invisible.

Also Miles has great reflex against Webbing.

Here he is just trying to talk to Peter and dodges a web easy. He then continues to praise Peter who attacked him. This was also before Miles own training.

Webbing is not a issue.

Difference between this and what Miles did with Peter is this fight takes place on an enclosed bridge so there is less room to dodge. Not to mention there will be webbing every which will further limit there room.

Lots of webbing every where...

Not to mention the spider-bots can further limit Miles space:

The spider-bots can generate force fields.

So now Miles can possibly end up entrapped by a force field (or at least have his back against a literal wall).

To be fair, the reason Miles won was becuase of the SUPERIOR combo of Venom Sting and Stealth.

You say this will not work on Otto spider Sense, I see no proof why not. It took Peter YEARS to master Spider Sense as a form of precog. To Otto, I see no difference than warning him of being in immediate danger and no evidence where or how a attack will come.

It does. I all ready uploaded a few example I will reupload with a few more:

Otto gets distracted by Peter....
But because of spider-sense he was able to avoid cardiac despite being distracted.
Otto is in mid conversation with thor.
Electro comes out of no where.
Otto states spider-sense allowed him to avoid the attack.

Otto dodges the avengers and only gets tagged because he gets distracted. Widow even states spider-sense was what was making him hard to tag.
Here is the same scan but with the dialogue.
Otto was looking at Jonah but because of spider-sense he turns to the sewer vent.
Smythe comes out of the sewers.

So as you can see Spider-sense does guide Ottos movements. He should be able to use it to determine where Miles is located just like it told him there was danger coming from the sewer vent or about electros blast or how to angle his body to avoid getting hit by the avengers until he got distracted.

His spider sense is no better than Ben Reilly from what I seen.

IIRC Bens spider-sense also told him where to dodge as well. 616 spider-sense has always been a guidance system. Its why when Peter lost his spider-sense he had issues web slinging because it was revealed spider-sense was sub consciously telling him which parts of the building could support his weight.

Again Ringer has hundred of Rings that are homing in and locking on Miles. Its almost Impossible to dodge. Harder than say gun fire from SHIELDs best, or Warmachine suits.

Are you sure the rings home in on Miles? Some of them seem to pass by him. Like in the scene where he is behind a car there is a ring right behind him and it doesn't seem to follow him....

Speed and Agility

Miles is Proven as Agile and as Peter as well.

1) Miles moving to fast to be hit by multiple trained Hydra, Hydra who are professionally train by Nick Fury himself.

2) Miles dodges the very highly train SHIELD, and you can see moves as fast as the bullets are traveling.

3) Moves faster than the accurate Targeting Computers and fire power of these Warmachine Suits.

Miles skill has improved alot since those scans i showed ya from above.

Not bad but I all ready have scans of Otto dodging cardiacs point blank energy blast, Otto saving Mysterion from a sniper bullet after it was fired at close range, and dodging bullets from punisher who has better accuracy feats then those targeting computers do (it should be noted that his spider-sense was dulled a bit when punisher was shooting at him, he still had it but it wasn't quite as strong).

In Stats and Gear yes. Not in powers or skill. Spock does best work as a prepper. As Otto Octavius, he simply is not the great H2H fighter as Pete was.

And even in Stat department, Miles is packing heavy.

Well if stomping Hob goblin and punisher isn't enough for you here is Otto effortlessly catching taskmasters sword and disarming him. Taskmaster has also given Peter some tough fights yet Otto effortlessly took his sword away from him. He could have beaten him to but he sort of just decided to go after stilt woman and chance. I doubt miles could do the same to taskmaster with such ease.

Strength

While at the moment Miles does not have the same strength feats as Peter he does have couple of ton strength.

1-2) KOes Giant woman with a punch to the face.

3) Lifts a heavy frame Cop Car over his head with ease.

Miles is strong but Otto is still stronger. He has the body of a fully developed 616 Peter Parker.

Knocking out people who are literal giants to him with ease, a little tap breaks through concrete and steel, punches through steel with ease, kicks heavy machinery through a roof, launches scorpion really high up in the air.
Showing some great strength against iron man 2020, lifting a train cart with ease, and stopping a moving truck with a punch.

Durability

Miles Durability as a 13 year old is nothing short of incredible.

1) Miles takes kicks from Batroc who can crush Concrete Roads with his leg power.

2-3) Miles takes a vicious slam from Giant woman that only stuns him. Giant Woman has shown to lify easy 60+ tons, so winding her hand back and slamming Miles with all her strength is a major feat.

4-5) Miles tanks a large Explosion at point blank range.

6) Miles tanks another Large Explosion in his face.

7) Scorpion has Super Human Strength and Durability. As seen he can crush super hard concrete floors with his fist and leave craters. He punches Miles in the face and it just causes Miles to see stars for a second.

I just want to note when he tanked the explosion point blank in scans 4-5 he was knocked out. Not that its not impressive but I feel the need to point it out.

Otto is still more durable. If anything he is more durable then 616 spider-man due to the carboanridium armor.

Tanks colossousnaut throwing doombots that explode with the force of a grenade head on
Tanks an explosion, a trained boxer hurts his hand punching spider-man, he tanks a building fallen on him and the final one he tanks another building.

Keep in mind Otto has carboanridium plating in the back of his head. And Otto can restrain him with webbing so he might not need to bypass Miles durability.

So in now way is Spock KOing Miles in a H2H fight which this will be as Spock scans and feats show. Miles most dangerous in H2H because of that dreaded one touch wonder Venom sting and Invisibility making it that much harder. For examples...

I did mention above that he does sometimes forget these powers. So all though he will probably use them he wont be spamming them around. and I think Otto can avoid him and defeat him in melee.

This is the battle of Prowler and Scorpion, just to show how skilled Prowler is and how Super Human Scorpion is. After this battle Prowler decides to enlist Miles help. He then gets in a scuffle with Miles to test his nephew out. Miles stats were way too much.

Miles fights the Super Human Scorpion and his little King Pin empire. Once he realize the Durability, Venom Sting.

Here Miles proves that he will do what it takes to put someone down, even his Uncle the Prowler who is the greatest Thief in America and proven quite the skilled fighter with the Tinkerers best toys.

All these feats are still a untrain and new to his powers Miles. I have not touch his best stuff yet.

When Prowler fights scorpion and he is sparring with Miles it seems Miles holds back. As Prowler said despite Miles being faster and stronger Prowler was still able to counter Miles moves and block him. Now you have someone who is faster, stronger, and has a sixth sense unlike prowler who is fighting Miles this is going to be tough for Miles to fight spider-man when he is taking this fight seriously.

The fight with scorpion is a good showing of his venom sting. All though suepioer is faster and more agile then him and is likely to get tagged.

The fight with prowler is also pretty impressive but more so as a durability showing IMO. He was tagged a lot in that fight.

How much better is Miles with training? Because I think Otto is more skilled with effortlessly disarming taskmaster, taking down hob goblin and punisher with ease, and also another good feat of his is stomping deathshead a robotic bounty hunter from the future.

I think Otto has the advantage in terms of stats, hand to hand, gear, and the way he uses his webbing. The only advantage I think Miles has on Otto is is the venom sting. Invisibility can be countered with spider-sense. And Miles himself sometimes forgets about the venom sting so all though it is an advantage its not an immediate one. Not to mention Ottos goggles can detect the bio energy build up which will allow Otto to tell when he is using a venom blast which will help him dodge and will better prepare him. This will also make it harder to catch Otto off guard with the venom sting which is how he beat Peter. I think otto has all the advantages needed to win. Miles just doesn't have the experience needed to take someone like Otto on.

#13 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Problem with this is there are literally thousands of spider bots. They wont all show up at once granted but they will show up in numbers. And they can crawl up walls. They can attack from different angles on the bridge. So Miles is going to be venom stinging in all sorts of directions if Otto does call the spider-bots. His spider-sense will be constantly going off as well and Miles has said that this is something that annoys him. Not to mention the bots can distract from the real threat of Otto if it really comes down to it.

Yes, the Spider Sense will continue to go off if Miles is in immediate danger. That is how it works like Peters. Should he gain distance or go Invisible, it will tune of unless he is in immediate danger again.

Also I already shown the Venom sting being conductive through Metals and Webbing. I see no reason why he cannot take groups of Spider Bots at a time.

The venom sting is powerful however Miles has said that he sometimes forgets he has these cool powers in his fight with prowler. He then specifically stated later on in his fight with venom that he forgets about his venom sting. So I don't see him doing this right off the bat. And as I said above Superior can detect bio energy build up which will allow him to determine when Miles is using a venom sting (since his venom stings are bio electricity) and when Miles is doing something else. This can further help Otto avoid Miles attacks.

You say he forgets and listed One Example (Proweler) where Miles was still learning his powers and the Venom one where he forgets for Plot Device, if they had him Venom Sting Venom off the bat, there been no fight. It was purely PIS comment. Miles has Venom Sting Electro, Omega Red, Rhino, and Spider Man early in the fights.

I want to address the one with 616 Peter but the reason that worked is because Miles never bothered to threaten Peter while he was invisible. He just stood there and watched him. He attacked Peter after tugging on his rope but Peter all ready knew he was there. So the reason Peter never detected him was because he wasn't in danger until after miles had turned visible. And the reason Peter never bothered to track Miles with spider-sense was because he never knew about his invisibility. In order for Peter to use spider-sense he has to focus it which he never attempted to do because he never knew about Miles invisibility. Something I have all ready shown isn't going to the case for Spcok due to his tech.

As I said above during his fight with prowler he used invisibility to hide from prowler and he told prowler that sometimes he forgets about his powers. Seems like he sometimes forgets about invisibility and the venom sting so all though it is a factor I doubt Miles will start the fight invisible. This gives Otto a chance to end it before it comes down to that.

Wow, Again your using Miles 4th Fight in his entire life as a example? Really? Miles is way more adept and trained, and been in many more fights since the Prowler. Prowler fight was literally in the first 2 weeks of Miles career and his 4th fight. he has close to 3 months and training now.

Its a weak argument to keep bringing up prowler as examples.

Miles has used Stealth to beat Electro, Prowler, Hydra, Giant Woman, and Peter Parker himself.

These are advantages Otto has as well. Only difference is his are better IMO. As I mentioned above he has impact webbing which is suepioer to Miles webbing. I would also say his spider-sense is annoying. Miles stated that because he was able to see the giant woman his spider-sense was pointless which tells me that his spider-sense isn't something that guides his movements and tells him where to dodge or where the threat is coming from. I will go more into this later in the post.

Thats kinda hard to prove when Miles spider Sense allows him to dodge hundreds of bullets from 6 SHIELD guys who were firing 10 feet away!

So obviously his Speed reaction and spider sense plays a role.

Here he is dodging Hydra who are personly trained by Nick Fury and are mostly ex soldiers.

Look at this to finaly prove Spider sense usefulness. Miles was in danger this whole fight, yet his sense goes off allowing him to dodge at the exact moment Mini Guns from the Warmachines fired.

So to say the spider Sense is limited and annoying base on one scan of Giant Woman is simply not enough.

Yes, he could restrain miles in webbing, However, why would the Webbing stick to Miles suit when him own webbing and Spider Womans does not? If webbed up, Miles can go stealth and wiggle out.

Your above scans show spider-woman restraining Miles and she releases him. All though I do have evidence that 616 spider-mans webbing will stick to Miles cloths:

in that same evidence Miles does not stick the the Massive Webbing Net.... so...... Double Standard?

When was Miles webbing used to restrain someone stronger then ultimate green goblin? Also keep in mind Otto has claws so he can cut his way out of webbing.

Miles webbing is the same Webbing peter had left behind, given to him by Aunt May. So yes.

Otto has spider-sense. He will detect Miles while Miles is invisible.

Can you show me proof of Otto detecting peter while he is invisible? Proof at all of any Perfect Invisible being being tracked by otto Spider Sense?

Other wise it is assuming on your part. In know way has Otto use Spider Sense with that accuracy like Peter.

Difference between this and what Miles did with Peter is this fight takes place on an enclosed bridge so there is less room to dodge. Not to mention there will be webbing every which will further limit there room.

Not to mention the spider-bots can further limit Miles space:

So now Miles can possibly end up entrapped by a force field (or at least have his back against a literal wall).

The spider Bots is still very iffy, Miles is not going to limit himself in enclosed area without using his stealth. Furthermore this enclosed space works to Miles advantage in 3 ways.

1) Miles is physically smaller and will have a easier time of maneuvering in the area. that is a fact.

2) Miles has stealth coupled with tiny space. Easier to sneak on with surprise attacks.

3) Venom sting is that much more dangerous.

4) Spider Bots will be far way and this battle will be over quick.

It does. I all ready uploaded a few example I will reupload with a few more:

So as you can see Spider-sense does guide Ottos movements. He should be able to use it to determine where Miles is located just like it told him there was danger coming from the sewer vent or about electros blast or how to angle his body to avoid getting hit by the avengers until he got distracted.

well I shown how it works for Miles as well. so I see how either one is a big changer. It might Warn Otto of a incoming attack, but still no scan of where that attack is exactly is. Look if Miles can tag Peter in full view! Then Miles can tag Otto Invisible.

IIRC Bens spider-sense also told him where to dodge as well. 616 spider-sense has always been a guidance system. Its why when Peter lost his spider-sense he had issues web slinging because it was revealed spider-sense was sub consciously telling him which parts of the building could support his weight.]

As above.

Again Ringer has hundred of Rings that are homing in and locking on Miles. Its almost Impossible to dodge. Harder than say gun fire from SHIELDs best, or Warmachine suits.

Are you sure the rings home in on Miles? Some of them seem to pass by him. Like in the scene where he is behind a car there is a ring right behind him and it doesn't seem to follow him....

Yes I am sure. Examples.

1) Ultimate Spidey does have Spider Sense to utilize his speed and agility best.

2-3) Spidey dodges bullets after they are fired and less than 20 feet away. Just dances around them.

4) Spider Man dances around Chain Guns from Weapon X soldiers.

5) Spidey easily dodges Assault Rifles fired by Swat Teams.

Spider Man vs Spot. Spider Sense saves the day here for peter. Yet...

The rings still manage to snag and nail peter with all his awesome feats of Dodging and Spider Sense.

So is it really debatable these things have no Homing, they even Constrict Peter's Breathing by getting tighter once they hook on. The only other way they could Tag Peter is they move faster than Bullets and they are giant rings with a shotgun affect.

Either way they are near impossible to dodge as shown. So not a low showing for Miles at all as your trying to make it seem.

Also unlike Peter who needed saving from kitty, Miles uses his speed to blitz and kick Ringer, winning the battle for himself.

Well if stomping Hob goblin and punisher isn't enough for you here is Otto effortlessly catching taskmasters sword and disarming him. Taskmaster has also given Peter some tough fights yet Otto effortlessly took his sword away from him. He could have beaten him to but he sort of just decided to go after stilt woman and chance. I doubt miles could do the same to taskmaster with such ease.

I think Miles can beat Task Master easy. most Super Power and Stats beings do beat Task Master easy. Task Master is a great Martial artist and can Mimic to a degree the Speed or strength of a person. He is still peak human in Speed and Strength. Miles would decimate him quicker than Prowler packing all the Tinkerers toys.

Its not a great feat.

Now Miles Beating 616 Mysterio with No prep while 616 Mysterio has prep is a feat!

Ultimate Mysterio is 616 Mysterio with a super Android Suit.

Miles and the mainstream Peter team up against Mysterio who turns out to be mechanical suits operated by the Mainstream Mysterio the whole time.

Miles second encounter with Mysterio. Mysterio was pulled into the Ultimate universe and it was Miles who proceed to beat the snot out of him while everyone else was suffering from illusions.

Miles is strong but Otto is still stronger. He has the body of a fully developed 616 Peter Parker.

Those feats are great and all, however we both know Otto is holding back on this very young kid.

Meanwhile all the stats of strength did not help Peter Parker beat Miles at all.

The whole fight of the Mainstream Peter vs Miles. In this both are holding back, however it is a great showing of Miles advantage of his added powers in both Invisibility and Venom sting that allow Miles to beat the way more skilled Mainstream Spider Man.

So Peter Parker with better stats, Spider Sense and Skill to Otto, gets beaten flat out to Miles Powers of Invisibility, near stats, and Venom Sting twice.

Again this is all before Miles official training from cap and Spider Woman!

I just want to note when he tanked the explosion point blank in scans 4-5 he was knocked out. Not that its not impressive but I feel the need to point it out.

Otto is still more durable. If anything he is more durable then 616 spider-man due to the carboanridium armor.

Keep in mind Otto has carboanridium plating in the back of his head. And Otto can restrain him with webbing so he might not need to bypass Miles durability.

To be fair Miles tanked a larger explosion from Prowler and was fine. So Low Ball < High End.

Cabonadium armor matters here? Miles already knows he cannot win with stats, he already has knoweldge of his last battle.

He will go to the venom sting, there is no reason miles will engage in a fist fight he knows he cannot win.

I did mention above that he does sometimes forget these powers. So all though he will probably use them he wont be spamming them around. and I think Otto can avoid him and defeat him in melee.

I did mention that was as silly argument becuase of Plot point for Venom (Who he one shotted, not much of a battle to use that off the bat is it?) and was just learning with his fight with Prowler?

I did show scans of Peter being EASILY venom Sting twice into Koes?! Im sure I did.

Why would Otto avoid melee? In all his fights he uses Melee, why does he not just Web KO or Spider Bot KO all his enemies while staying out of Melee? He simply never shows that in character in 90% of his fights.

When Prowler fights scorpion and he is sparring with Miles it seems Miles holds back. As Prowler said despite Miles being faster and stronger Prowler was still able to counter Miles moves and block him. Now you have someone who is faster, stronger, and has a sixth sense unlike prowler who is fighting Miles this is going to be tough for Miles to fight spider-man when he is taking this fight seriously.

Except Miles already fought a superior Peter and won... so....

The fight with scorpion is a good showing of his venom sting. All though suepioer is faster and more agile then him and is likely to get tagged.

Peter was also faster and more agile to Otto with Peter skill.... so....

How much better is Miles with training? Because I think Otto is more skilled with effortlessly disarming taskmaster, taking down hob goblin and punisher with ease, and also another good feat of his is stomping deathshead a robotic bounty hunter from the future.

I think Otto has the advantage in terms of stats, hand to hand, gear, and the way he uses his webbing. The only advantage I think Miles has on Otto is is the venom sting. Invisibility can be countered with spider-sense. And Miles himself sometimes forgets about the venom sting so all though it is an advantage its not an immediate one. Not to mention Ottos goggles can detect the bio energy build up which will allow Otto to tell when he is using a venom blast which will help him dodge and will better prepare him. This will also make it harder to catch Otto off guard with the venom sting which is how he beat Peter. I think otto has all the advantages needed to win. Miles just doesn't have the experience needed to take someone like Otto on.

Miles during the events of United We Stand was forced to battle on the front line of the worse war in america. Major players like Hawkeye, Giant Woman (Good One), Captain america, and Iron Man were severly harmed and damaged. Miles held his own with those top tier heroes through the whole battle.

After this the Divided We Fall and United We Stand event happens.

Miles vs Batroc, a being with legit Super Strength and Agility.

Miles comes across a battle between Cap and Rhino. He intervenes and quickly ends the battle. Rhino was tossing around Cap of all people, and miles ends it with a Touch!

Miles battles for his life when Hydra sneak attacks the Ultimates home base. Proving himself capable to Cap he becomes part of the Ultimate Team.

Miles is part of the massive final battle of SHIELD and the Ultimate vs Modi and Hydra. Miles saves Captain America by destroying a group of Warmachines, but gets knocked far away from the main battle. Trying to make his way back, he comes across a Giant Woman who is loyal to Hydra. Already tired and fatigue, he battles the SHIELD train traitor and comes out on top.

Miles faces one of Peters greatest foes, Venom. He wins with one touch once he uses the Venom Sting.

So bring it on Superior Spider Man. Miles at the Age of 13 is as capable of winning this battle with Spock holding back in character.

Im ready for votes after this. Out of scans.

#15 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#16 Posted by jashro44 (23799 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: bump.

I will try to post a closing post later today, if I don't have one up by the end of today then just call out people to vote. Sorry for being gone so long but somethings came up.

#17 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@jashro44: bump.

I will try to post a closing post later today, if I don't have one up by the end of today then just call out people to vote. Sorry for being gone so long but somethings came up.

It happens, I just liked this debate and did not wanted it to go unfinished.

#18 Edited by jashro44 (23799 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Just a heads up but I am tired as I am typing this so this might not be my best post. Apologies.

Yes, the Spider Sense will continue to go off if Miles is in immediate danger. That is how it works like Peters. Should he gain distance or go Invisible, it will tune of unless he is in immediate danger again.

Also I already shown the Venom sting being conductive through Metals and Webbing. I see no reason why he cannot take groups of Spider Bots at a time.

He can sting multiple spider-bots but thats not the issue. He will be venom stinging in all sorts of directions and fighting suepioer spider-man at the same time. Can avoid having the spider bots attacking him and the webbing of suepioer spider-man all at the same time?

You say he forgets and listed One Example (Proweler) where Miles was still learning his powers and the Venom one where he forgets for Plot Device, if they had him Venom Sting Venom off the bat, there been no fight. It was purely PIS comment. Miles has Venom Sting Electro, Omega Red, Rhino, and Spider Man early in the fights.

Its not PIS if a character states it. If its something the character thinks to themselves then its part of who they are. Same with Miles. He has stated twice that he forgets to use venom sting and invisibility right off the bat. So that would be CIS as this is a character trait of Miles.

He does use those powers but even in the fight you listed he didn't use them right away which is my point. He seems to like melee combat which is where suepioer has a huge upper hand.

Wow, Again your using Miles 4th Fight in his entire life as a example? Really? Miles is way more adept and trained, and been in many more fights since the Prowler. Prowler fight was literally in the first 2 weeks of Miles career and his 4th fight. he has close to 3 months and training now.

Its a weak argument to keep bringing up prowler as examples.

Miles has used Stealth to beat Electro, Prowler, Hydra, Giant Woman, and Peter Parker himself.

You say Miles has had more experience yet he said the same thing against venom. And that was like 4-6 issues ago. Yes the Prowler fight was early on but I am mainly bringing it up to show it is consistent.

I don't doubt Miles wont use these powers I just don't see him using them immediately. He isn't beating Spock in melee who has suepioer stats and better melee feats as well.

Thats kinda hard to prove when Miles spider Sense allows him to dodge hundreds of bullets from 6 SHIELD guys who were firing 10 feet away!

So obviously his Speed reaction and spider sense plays a role.

Here he is dodging Hydra who are personly trained by Nick Fury and are mostly ex soldiers.

Look at this to finaly prove Spider sense usefulness. Miles was in danger this whole fight, yet his sense goes off allowing him to dodge at the exact moment Mini Guns from the Warmachines fired.

So to say the spider Sense is limited and annoying base on one scan of Giant Woman is simply not enough.

Not really he could just be aim dodging in the first scan. The second scan looks like blitzing. The last scan might show spider-sense playing a role but I don't know. It could have just been that Miles heard buzzing so he knew it wasn't safe to stand there, so he leaped off. If it was a guidance system I sort of feel like it would have told him to leap onto one of the hydra iron men.

We also have him getting surprised by mysterios bomb. Peter has used his spider-sense to diffuse bombs in the past. It would tell him which cord to pull to avoid the city blowing up. Where as Miles didn't listen just went ahead and touched the bomb. I feel like in the examples posted in this thread show Miles spider-sense isn't as sharp as the Ottos.

in that same evidence Miles does not stick the the Massive Webbing Net.... so...... Double Standard?

He didn't stick to Peters web net because it was a web net. No one sticks to web nets. Your not suppose to. For example when Otto shot a web net to save Mary Jane she was able to move along the web net. Doesn't mean she is immune to webbing.

Miles webbing is the same Webbing peter had left behind, given to him by Aunt May. So yes.

When did Peter web down ultimate green goblin? IIRC Ultimate Kingpin snapped his webbing? Or is that a low showing for his webbing?

Can you show me proof of Otto detecting peter while he is invisible? Proof at all of any Perfect Invisible being being tracked by otto Spider Sense?

Other wise it is assuming on your part. In know way has Otto use Spider Sense with that accuracy like Peter.

I all ready showed you him using it to track smythe. Why do I need to show him use it for tracking someone who is invisible? What is the difference between Miles being invisible and smythe hiding? Not only that but I showed he can use his visor for tracking. He can track the bi energy that Miles will leave out due to his venom sting. He has detected bio energy build ups before.

The spider Bots is still very iffy, Miles is not going to limit himself in enclosed area without using his stealth. Furthermore this enclosed space works to Miles advantage in 3 ways.

1) Miles is physically smaller and will have a easier time of maneuvering in the area. that is a fact.

2) Miles has stealth coupled with tiny space. Easier to sneak on with surprise attacks.

3) Venom sting is that much more dangerous.

4) Spider Bots will be far way and this battle will be over quick.

What I mean to say is if Miles gets enclosed in a force field he is incapacitated. Thing is if this is in an enclosed space it limits Miles range and this would be a melee encounter which Spock is just better at. His melee showings are all around better. Disarming taskmaster, stomping deathshead, He recently was seen beating the snot out of daredevil, etc. And the closer they are the easier it is for Otto to tag Miles with webbing. I would say Otto has better accuracy feats considering he was able to tag hob goblins glider while falling (which isn't to shabby). He was also able to tag chance who if you look above at the taskmaster seen again deadpool had issues tagging. So an enclosed space means it is easier for Otto to tag Miles.

well I shown how it works for Miles as well. so I see how either one is a big changer. It might Warn Otto of a incoming attack, but still no scan of where that attack is exactly is. Look if Miles can tag Peter in full view! Then Miles can tag Otto Invisible.

Again it did tell him where the danger was. It told Otto how to dodge electros blast, where Smythe was, and that cardiac was shooting at him. Spider-sense tells him exactly where the attack is.

As for your scan of the Peter vs Miles fight the thing is Peter wanted to talk to Miles. He wasn't trying to knock him out he wanted Miles conscious so Miles would tell him what was going on (Because he thought he could get answers that way). The second he got remotely serious he webbed off MIles mask so fast that Miles couldn't even react. Really if Peter wanted to knock him out I think he could have without much trouble.

Yes I am sure. Examples.

1) Ultimate Spidey does have Spider Sense to utilize his speed and agility best.

2-3) Spidey dodges bullets after they are fired and less than 20 feet away. Just dances around them.

4) Spider Man dances around Chain Guns from Weapon X soldiers.

5) Spidey easily dodges Assault Rifles fired by Swat Teams.

Spider Man vs Spot. Spider Sense saves the day here for peter. Yet...

The rings still manage to snag and nail peter with all his awesome feats of Dodging and Spider Sense.

So is it really debatable these things have no Homing, they even Constrict Peter's Breathing by getting tighter once they hook on. The only other way they could Tag Peter is they move faster than Bullets and they are giant rings with a shotgun affect.

Either way they are near impossible to dodge as shown. So not a low showing for Miles at all as your trying to make it seem.

Also unlike Peter who needed saving from kitty, Miles uses his speed to blitz and kick Ringer, winning the battle for himself.

I still don't think the rings follow people. You can see some of the rings pass by the intended target in both his fight with Miles and his fight with Peter. All though I will admit ringer has some decent accuracy. Still he is a different character then Otto is and Otto has all ready stomped a Superior marksmen (punisher).

I think Miles can beat Task Master easy. most Super Power and Stats beings do beat Task Master easy. Task Master is a great Martial artist and can Mimic to a degree the Speed or strength of a person. He is still peak human in Speed and Strength. Miles would decimate him quicker than Prowler packing all the Tinkerers toys.

Its not a great feat.

I disagree with this. Taskmaster has given good fights to 616 Peter, he blitzed venom (flash), he has caught a bullet, given captain america hell, etc. Yet he was basically stomped by suepioer. You uploaded these scans earlier in this thread:

Notice how Prowler does very well in hand to hand and even seems to have the upper hand on Miles until venom sting? Not just to clarify the reason I am using this showing is that this and Miles showing against batroc seem to be his only two showings against skilled fighters. Anyways point being is all though taskmaster is only a peak human on paper he has given a tough fight to powerful metas before and Miles has had a hard time with a peak human before. So I think saying Miles could stomp taskmaster because taskmaster is human is false.

I think Otto disarming someone as fast and skilled as taskmaster is pretty impressive.

Now Miles Beating 616 Mysterio with No prep while 616 Mysterio has prep is a feat!

Ultimate Mysterio is 616 Mysterio with a super Android Suit.

Miles and the mainstream Peter team up against Mysterio who turns out to be mechanical suits operated by the Mainstream Mysterio the whole time.

Miles second encounter with Mysterio. Mysterio was pulled into the Ultimate universe and it was Miles who proceed to beat the snot out of him while everyone else was suffering from illusions.

Thing is Superior isn't going to use illusions or gas attacks....Mysterio is deadly but thats mainly because of his gadgets. He uses different methods then suepioer so mysterio vs miles and suepioer vs miles is a completely different fight. Besides Otto Octavious is smarter and physically better then mysterio. There is a reason he led the sinister 6.

Those feats are great and all, however we both know Otto is holding back on this very young kid.

Meanwhile all the stats of strength did not help Peter Parker beat Miles at all.

The whole fight of the Mainstream Peter vs Miles. In this both are holding back, however it is a great showing of Miles advantage of his added powers in both Invisibility and Venom sting that allow Miles to beat the way more skilled Mainstream Spider Man.

So Peter Parker with better stats, Spider Sense and Skill to Otto, gets beaten flat out to Miles Powers of Invisibility, near stats, and Venom Sting twice.

Again this is all before Miles official training from cap and Spider Woman!

  1. Peter doesn't have better stats. There stats are even.
  2. I all ready addressed this fight above
  3. Honestly this is Miles best showing. If we are using high end feats then I will bring up suepioer spider-man stomping wolverine effortlessly. Wolverine has also given Peter lots of difficult fights and yet he was humiliated by Otto. Now I don't think Spider-man (Otto or Peter) should beat wolverine this way but I don't think Miles should beat Peter either. Point being is both characters have really high end feats.

Yet:

Point is I can up play suepioer with high end feats as well. I don't think Miles should be able to beat Peter any more then I think Otto should effortlessly stomp wolverine.

To be fair Miles tanked a larger explosion from Prowler and was fine. So Low Ball < High End.

Cabonadium armor matters here? Miles already knows he cannot win with stats, he already has knoweldge of his last battle.

He will go to the venom sting, there is no reason miles will engage in a fist fight he knows he cannot win.

I know. I was just pointing that out.

Miles always starts off with melee though. I don't think he has started any fight with venom sting. He did fight Peter sure but he never fought Peter who was going full out only a severely holding back Peter who was trying to get Miles to explain what was going on. Here he is fighting a spider-man who is trying to knock him out or incapacitate him. And I all ready addressed the spider-man fight.

I did mention that was as silly argument becuase of Plot point for Venom (Who he one shotted, not much of a battle to use that off the bat is it?) and was just learning with his fight with Prowler?

I did show scans of Peter being EASILY venom Sting twice into Koes?! Im sure I did.

Why would Otto avoid melee? In all his fights he uses Melee, why does he not just Web KO or Spider Bot KO all his enemies while staying out of Melee? He simply never shows that in character in 90% of his fights.

Addressed the difference between CIS and PIS all ready.

All ready addressed the fight with Peter as well.

I never said he wouldn't, I said he can beat Miles in melee. He doesn't use incapacitation or spider-bots because of how rarely he needs them. Honestly he has handled pretty much every fight he has been in without much trouble. The only problems he really had were the new sinister 6 (or the suepioer foes of spider-man) and also vulture. Aside from that he basically has either stomped or brutally beaten everyone else. If he needs spider-bots he will call them. And he did try to incapacitate vulture, scopon, boomerang, hob goblin, chance, and I think there are a few more.

Except Miles already fought a superior Peter and won... so....

Peter was also faster and more agile to Otto with Peter skill.... so....

Read above.

Miles during the events of United We Stand was forced to battle on the front line of the worse war in america. Major players like Hawkeye, Giant Woman (Good One), Captain america, and Iron Man were severly harmed and damaged. Miles held his own with those top tier heroes through the whole battle.

After this the Divided We Fall and United We Stand event happens.

Miles vs Batroc, a being with legit Super Strength and Agility.

The batroc fight seems even with batroc having the upper hand until the end where he seems to get a bit distracted. Batroc was no longer focusing on Miles and was about to shoot his henchmen in the face when Miles lifts the car underneath them and tosses it. Thing is suepioer has far better stats. Not only this but in this fight Miles didn't use either cloaking or venom sting once which seems to be what the main trump card he has in this fight.

Miles comes across a battle between Cap and Rhino. He intervenes and quickly ends the battle. Rhino was tossing around Cap of all people, and miles ends it with a Touch!

In this showing Rhino was more focused on ultimate cap IMO. Miles came in saw rhino who charged at him, sent him flying across town, Miles came back attacked him, hurt his hand, and got thrown aside again. Then while rhino was fighting cap he jumped on rhinos back and venom stinged him. Yes Miles does win but he was tagged by someone much slower then Spcok and also had Cap to distract rhino.

Miles battles for his life when Hydra sneak attacks the Ultimates home base. Proving himself capable to Cap he becomes part of the Ultimate Team.

Impressive.

Miles is part of the massive final battle of SHIELD and the Ultimate vs Modi and Hydra. Miles saves Captain America by destroying a group of Warmachines, but gets knocked far away from the main battle. Trying to make his way back, he comes across a Giant Woman who is loyal to Hydra. Already tired and fatigue, he battles the SHIELD train traitor and comes out on top.

Miles faces one of Peters greatest foes, Venom. He wins with one touch once he uses the Venom Sting.

So bring it on Superior Spider Man. Miles at the Age of 13 is as capable of winning this battle with Spock holding back in character.

Im ready for votes after this. Out of scans.

These are also impressive but I think the combat showings I posted for suepioer are better.

IMO Miles has the potential to win this but I think he simply lacks the experience at this point. He hasn't mastered spider-sense, and he isn't as skilled at avoiding attacks as Otto. Otto has better gear and stats over all.

#19 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Opening for Votes!

#20 Posted by dondave (38809 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

Too close really, going with Jashro44.

BTW CadenceV2 hold off on scans bit man, only put one where its needed :p you literally go scan spammage every-time you get :p

I think the spiderbots do give him advantage, that being said apart from scans i have seen in thread i know absolutely squat about Miles.

#22 Edited by ComicStooge (13771 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote for @jashro44.

I'd also like to say it doesn't look like Miles won anything against Peter.

Peter was sick, holding back A LOT and generally underestimating Miles, so he got a few lucky shots in (that Peter recovered from pretty quickly).

In a straight up fight with a serious, more vicious version of Spiderman with some pretty serious gear, he's going to lose badly and @jashro44 convinced me of this fact.

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#23 Posted by nick_hero22 (7090 posts) - - Show Bio

Jashro44

#24 Posted by dondave (38809 posts) - - Show Bio

Too close really, going with Jashro44.

BTW CadenceV2 hold off on scans bit man, only put one where its needed :p you literally go scan spammage every-time you get :p

I think the spiderbots do give him advantage, that being said apart from scans i have seen in thread i know absolutely squat about Miles.

I agree

#25 Posted by nick_hero22 (7090 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@killemall said:

Too close really, going with Jashro44.

BTW CadenceV2 hold off on scans bit man, only put one where its needed :p you literally go scan spammage every-time you get :p

I think the spiderbots do give him advantage, that being said apart from scans i have seen in thread i know absolutely squat about Miles.

I agree

I have to second that! I don't understand why this is becoming a new trend on this board.

#26 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: @nick_hero22: @dondave: Sorry, my debate style. Too many times I see scans out of context, So i try to post it all for the big picture which helps more IMO when I read a match.

Just my style and will not go away soon whether it wins me votes or not :p

#27 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Also Peter lost his fight vs Miles. Make all the excuses you guys want, he lost on panel and was KOed long enough for Miles to drag him to Nick Fury.

It happen. ;p

#28 Edited by ComicStooge (13771 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

Also Peter lost his fight vs Miles. Make all the excuses you guys want, he lost on panel and was KOed long enough for Miles to drag him to Nick Fury.

It happen. ;p

He only lost because he was cheap shoted by Miles when he was only trying to talk with him. Peter could have followed up with an attack on Miles after he fell into that web net to KO him, but he chose not to.

Even if Otto holds back, if he registers Miles as a threat he's just going to knock him out the first opportunity he gets.

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#29 Posted by VeganDiet (1091 posts) - - Show Bio

Can anybody vote on these? If so, I'm gonna throw my vote to CadenceV2. The points about SpOck's spider sense not being as well utilized, point about SpOck's problem with fighting children, and Miles' ability to Venom Sting Peter were well utilized.

#30 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Can anybody vote on these? If so, I'm gonna throw my vote to CadenceV2. The points about SpOck's spider sense not being as well utilized, point about SpOck's problem with fighting children, and Miles' ability to Venom Sting Peter were well utilized.

Anyone can vote and thanks :)

He only lost because he was cheap shoted by Miles when he was only trying to talk with him. Peter could have followed up with an attack on Miles after he fell into that web net to KO him, but he chose not to.

Even if Otto holds back, if he registers Miles as a threat he's just going to knock him out the first opportunity he gets.

Ho ho ho, Peter threw the first punch at Miles starting the fight. Miles was the guy trying to talk Peter down till Peter took his mask off! Do not try to give me that crap Peter just wanted to talk. I posted the whole fight. Peter was the instigator and one wanted to fight.

#31 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@vegandiet: Problem with fighting children? The dude beat 2 teen age pranksters to near death :p

#32 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

@vegandiet: Problem with fighting children? The dude beat 2 teen age pranksters to near death :p

Except even Jashro conceited this point.

You are correct in assuming this admittedly. Otto doesn't go full out on children due to the fact he took abuse as a child from his dad who beat him. However he doesn't need to full out.

So are you ignoring his debate and making a bias decision on who you think wins? 0_0

#33 Edited by ComicStooge (13771 posts) - - Show Bio

@vegandiet said:

Can anybody vote on these? If so, I'm gonna throw my vote to CadenceV2. The points about SpOck's spider sense not being as well utilized, point about SpOck's problem with fighting children, and Miles' ability to Venom Sting Peter were well utilized.

Anyone can vote and thanks :)

@comicstooge said:

He only lost because he was cheap shoted by Miles when he was only trying to talk with him. Peter could have followed up with an attack on Miles after he fell into that web net to KO him, but he chose not to.

Even if Otto holds back, if he registers Miles as a threat he's just going to knock him out the first opportunity he gets.

Ho ho ho, Peter threw the first punch at Miles starting the fight. Miles was the guy trying to talk Peter down till Peter took his mask off! Do not try to give me that crap Peter just wanted to talk. I posted the whole fight. Peter was the instigator and one wanted to fight.

That doesn't change the fact that Miles only won when Peter stopped fighting and tried talking.

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#34 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

Except even Jashro conceited this point.

I am not basing my vote on that, i said when i voted, my vote is based on i am more convinced the spiderbot will be a big factor and that venom sting wont be able to take them all out at once, because in doing so Miles would have to contend with Spock simultaneously and there are literally 1000s of them, pretty much what Jashro pointed as well.

#35 Posted by VeganDiet (1091 posts) - - Show Bio

@vegandiet: Problem with fighting children? The dude beat 2 teen age pranksters to near death :p

I don't believe Jester or Screwball are teenagers. Screwball looks to be in her early twenties to me.

#36 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

Except even Jashro conceited this point.

I am not basing my vote on that, i said when i voted, my vote is based on i am more convinced the spiderbot will be a big factor and that venom sting wont be able to take them all out at once, because in doing so Miles would have to contend with Spock simultaneously and there are literally 1000s of them, pretty much what Jashro pointed as well.

Alright then. For a second there I thought you believed the argument was Spock going all out on the kid.


That doesn't change the fact that Miles only won when Peter stopped fighting and tried talking.

He tried talking because he thought he had the Upper hand.

He was arrogant, and underestimated Miles. Miles won on 3 factors!

1) He is still Spider Man level being, nowhere as skilled or strong as Peter, I think as a kid he may be faster like average Kids are to average Adults.

2) This was a Random Battle and the 2 extra powers of Invisibility and Venom Sting were deciding factors in the battle. Like it would be against Spock here.

3) Nowhere in this battle Peters Precog Spider Sense go off or help him avoid the worse hits. I think Miles does not register at all to it.

You are flatly ignoring the obvious facts of that battle.

Also in no way am I arguing to change your vote, I just want people to stop ignoring Miles feat of a Legit win over golden child Peter.

#37 Edited by nickzambuto (14456 posts) - - Show Bio

I am actually going to go ahead and say Miles beat Peter Parker, fair and square, which is damn impressive (and surprising!) People try to justify it as Peter only wanted to talk and was underestimating Miles - seems like the exact opposite to me. Am I the only one actually reading? Miles says it right there in the fourth scan, "I just wanted to talk to you! You don't have to freak out."

Perhaps if it was a life or death serious battle, Peter would have been a bit more focused and won, but as it stands, Miles versatility won the day. This was a very even debate, neither side really performed much better than the other. In that case I think I'll give @cadencev2 a pity vote.

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#38 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

Whilst Cadence did make use of Miles' more unique powers such as invisibility and the Venom Sting along with Ock's aversion to hurting children due to childhood trauma, I don't think the outcome from the Spider-Men fight is a proper way to judge Miles' performance against SpOck. @jashro44 showed that SpOck has Peter's stats, less morals and makes better use of his spider bots in battle. Despite Miles' apparent skill and experience increase recently, jashro replied to Cadence's arguments very well so my vote goes to him.

#39 Posted by jashro44 (23799 posts) - - Show Bio

I am actually going to go ahead and say Miles beat Peter Parker, fair and square, which is damn impressive (and surprising!) People try to justify it as Peter only wanted to talk and was underestimating Miles - seems like the exact opposite to me. Am I the only one actually reading? Miles says it right there in the fourth scan, "I just wanted to talk to you! You don't have to freak out."

And yet Peter was just standing there in the 4th scan and let Miles get up asking "who are you?"....He wanted to know what was going on and he himself stated in the 6th scan he was off his game anyways. They were literally talking the whole fight and were both trying to figure out what happened. The fight literally ends with Peter removing Miles mask so fast that he cannot stop Peter from removing the mask. He wasn't expecting that Miles venom sting could conduct on webbing. Miles got mad and stopped holding back and caught Peter off guard it has been stated and shown numerous times that Peters mind can override his body which is why he was caught off guard.

He did win that I wont deny but I really don't see it as a showing of him being on Peters level. Miles has potential but I don't think he has the feats yet.

#40 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Damn right about Spider Men and thanks for the Pity! X)

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

I am actually going to go ahead and say Miles beat Peter Parker, fair and square, which is damn impressive (and surprising!) People try to justify it as Peter only wanted to talk and was underestimating Miles - seems like the exact opposite to me. Am I the only one actually reading? Miles says it right there in the fourth scan, "I just wanted to talk to you! You don't have to freak out."

And yet Peter was just standing there in the 4th scan and let Miles get up asking "who are you?"....He wanted to know what was going on and he himself stated in the 6th scan he was off his game anyways. They were literally talking the whole fight and were both trying to figure out what happened. The fight literally ends with Peter removing Miles mask so fast that he cannot stop Peter from removing the mask. He wasn't expecting that Miles venom sting could conduct on webbing. Miles got mad and stopped holding back and caught Peter off guard it has been stated and shown numerous times that Peters mind can override his body which is why he was caught off guard.

He did win that I wont deny but I really don't see it as a showing of him being on Peters level. Miles has potential but I don't think he has the feats yet.

Its not meant to be a showing he is on Peters level. people just are ***holes about it and state its PIS or that Miles could never stand a chance vs Peter. Miles has the powers and skill enough to beat Peter, who was acting in character, in a random battle.

#41 Edited by nickzambuto (14456 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

I am actually going to go ahead and say Miles beat Peter Parker, fair and square, which is damn impressive (and surprising!) People try to justify it as Peter only wanted to talk and was underestimating Miles - seems like the exact opposite to me. Am I the only one actually reading? Miles says it right there in the fourth scan, "I just wanted to talk to you! You don't have to freak out."

And yet Peter was just standing there in the 4th scan and let Miles get up asking "who are you?"....He wanted to know what was going on and he himself stated in the 6th scan he was off his game anyways. They were literally talking the whole fight and were both trying to figure out what happened. The fight literally ends with Peter removing Miles mask so fast that he cannot stop Peter from removing the mask. He wasn't expecting that Miles venom sting could conduct on webbing. Miles got mad and stopped holding back and caught Peter off guard it has been stated and shown numerous times that Peters mind can override his body which is why he was caught off guard.

He did win that I wont deny but I really don't see it as a showing of him being on Peters level. Miles has potential but I don't think he has the feats yet.

Because it's a comic book, everyone talks as they fight. That doesn't mean Peter wasn't serious. Miles was turned around when Peter pulled off his mask, and the reason he was turned around is because he was recovering from saving Peter's life!

Yes, Peter didn't know Miles venom blast would conduct on webbing, but isn't that the point of a "no knowledge" fight? I don't really think that's an adequate excuse for Parker, Miles has won in a random encounter. Perhaps if they fought again Peter would win, but as it stands, Miles took him down with versatility. Peter's in-character morals made his superior stats a nonfactor.

On paper, of course Peter Parker would beat Miles Morales. However, there are multiple factors that need to be taken into considering, such as the two characters different personalities (like you said, Miles got mad, Peter held back. This is an advantage to Miles) and how that affects their different power sets. Both of these points were taken into considering during their actual fight.

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#42 Edited by jashro44 (23799 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: What I don't like about the use of the showing is everyone who uses it seems to ignore the fact they were both just talking until the end. Peter wasn't trying to KO Miles because he was confused with what was going on and Miles wanted to know why Peter was alive. And everyone ignores the fact Peter states right there and then that he was off his game. I don't consider it a showing he can beat Peter in character because honestly there was a lot of plot involved.

#43 Posted by nickzambuto (14456 posts) - - Show Bio

In a Comic Vine debate, Peter is going to beat Miles every time. In an actual fight though, different factors can affect the battle that don't show up on paper. People justify Peter losing as he was holding back. Yes, exactly, Peter Parker holds back and that is his disadvantage. We can make up our own scenarios and change around characters personalities, "bloodlusted" and whatnot, but then what's the point of the match when the characters aren't even themselves anymore?

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#44 Posted by jashro44 (23799 posts) - - Show Bio

In a Comic Vine debate, Peter is going to beat Miles every time. In an actual fight though, different factors can affect the battle that don't show up on paper. People justify Peter losing as he was holding back. Yes, exactly, Peter Parker holds back and that is his disadvantage. We can make up our own scenarios and change around characters personalities, "bloodlusted" and whatnot, but then what's the point of the match when the characters aren't even themselves anymore?

I'm not saying it was an issue of holding back.

I am saying they both wanted to talk until Peter removed Miles mask which made Miles angry which led to him surprising Peter with a venom sting. If Peter had knocked Miles out he wouldn't have gotten any answers. He needed Miles conscious in order to get him to talk. Thats why he removed his mask instead of punching him unconscious.

#45 Posted by jashro44 (23799 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Sorry but I missed this comment. I will agree to disagree after this I just want to try and explain things because I am not sure if I am being completely clear.

Because it's a comic book, everyone talks as they fight. That doesn't mean Peter wasn't serious. Miles was turned around when Peter pulled off his mask, and the reason he was turned around is because he was recovering from saving Peter's life!

Peter saved Miles life when he pulled the mask. He couldn't figure out who Miles is if he had knocked him unconscious.

Yes, Peter didn't know Miles venom blast would conduct on webbing, but isn't that the point of a "no knowledge" fight? I don't really think that's an adequate excuse for Parker, Miles has won in a random encounter

Well thats because Peters mind was overriding his body...Again what people don't realize with spider-mans powers is that he has to listen to spider-sense. However sometimes Peters thoughts distract from that. This usually happens when something is happening like something is wrong with Aunt May or in this case he is sucked into another universe. Because he was more focused on figuring out what had happened to him he wasn't listening to his spider-sense (because he was trying to figure out where he was, who Miles is, etc) which led to Miles surprising him with the venom sting. In a battle forum Peter doesn't need to worry about figuring out who Miles is, or where he is,-because there is no plot in the battle boards-so that venom sting wouldn't surprise him normally.

I am not sure if this makes sense but this is the main thing I want to be clear in this post. Thats my biggest pet peeve with the fight to be honest.

Perhaps if they fought again Peter would win, but as it stands, Miles took him down with versatility. Peter's in-character morals made his superior stats a nonfactor.

Its not an issue of character....Its an issue Peter needed Miles to be conscious in order to question him.

On paper, of course Peter Parker would beat Miles Morales. However, there are multiple factors that need to be taken into considering, such as the two characters different personalities (like you said, Miles got mad, Peter held back. This is an advantage to Miles) and how that affects their different power sets. Both of these points were taken into considering during their actual fight.

Yes but we need to take into consideration the context of the fight...Like Peter trying to figure out what happened, him being off his game, and his mind overriding his spider-sense.

As I said I am done now as I feel like I said everything that I think needs to be said. I will just agree to disagree with both you and @cadencev2 if you guys don't agree. Unless I need to clarify the part about Peters mind overriding his body...That's always something tricky to explain and as I said I really want that part to be clear.

#46 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

In a Comic Vine debate, Peter is going to beat Miles every time. In an actual fight though, different factors can affect the battle that don't show up on paper. People justify Peter losing as he was holding back. Yes, exactly, Peter Parker holds back and that is his disadvantage. We can make up our own scenarios and change around characters personalities, "bloodlusted" and whatnot, but then what's the point of the match when the characters aren't even themselves anymore?

I'm not saying it was an issue of holding back.

I am saying they both wanted to talk until Peter removed Miles mask which made Miles angry which led to him surprising Peter with a venom sting. If Peter had knocked Miles out he wouldn't have gotten any answers. He needed Miles conscious in order to get him to talk. Thats why he removed his mask instead of punching him unconscious.

You forget this part as well.

Here Miles is holding back and not fighting serious at all. He surprise Peter here as well with a Minor Venom sting that dropped Peter. this is a Venom Sting of Miles holding back. Peter was dropped. If miles was serious, he could win with one Venom sting like he did to Peter when he was serious.

Miles straight up won due to his powers over Peters stats and skills in this no knowledge random encounter that was in character.

Peter was dropped twice.

also spider woman easily beaten Miles when she wanted to talk.

Why didnt Peter do this if he simply wanted to talk? He was attacking Miles but never though of a obvious way to win? Or maybe Miles improved alot in that month when he learns his powers better.

Miles skill and ability improved alot and he won fair and square.

#47 Posted by jashro44 (23799 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I all ready stated they were both just talking...Neither wanted to really KO the other until Peter made Miles mad because of the plot. Thats what I have been saying. I think if they both wanted to KO each other off the bat Peter would have beaten him without too much trouble. As I said there were a lot of factors in the fight.

As for why Peter didn't trap him in a web cocoon I have no idea. But its pretty clear after Peter removed the mask he isn't fighting anymore. "I'll give it back when you--" "Dude I'm out in the open where everyone can see" "Then you best start talking". I guess that part was to move the plot forward. He wanted Miles to talk. He said so himself.

#48 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: We will agree to disagree. With both holding back, Miles dropped peter once with a Venom Sting, Surprised attack Peter with his invisibility, dodged Peters webs easy, and KOed Peter with Venom Sting.

Clear to me Miles Versatility and Venom Sting > Peters Character and Stats.

#49 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2985 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: narrowly gets my vote. Although I think SpOck would win I think he did better.

#50 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

5-3 Jashro44. Told ya this was a great match :)