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#1 Edited by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

Today on the tropical islands of Hawaii, Tony Stark, the handsome billionaire will be put against the ruler of Atlantis, Aquaman!

@jwalser3

@lvenger

  • Win by K.O or death
  • No BFR
  • No knowledge
  • Start 20 feet away
  • Morals on
  • No prep
  • Iron Man has extremis armor
  • New 52 Aquaman

You can open this up!

#2 Posted by Lvenger (19121 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3: Funny, I didn't get any notification at all. Ah well, I'll make my opening statement later on today.

#3 Posted by ComicStooge (12439 posts) - - Show Bio

LVENGER, YOU'RE CAV'ING SOMEONE WHO ISN'T ME?!

I THOUGHT WE HAD SOMETHING SPECIAL. :'(

...Seriously though, good luck to both of you! I'm a fan of both characters and both you guys are awesome debaters. I will absolutely be reading through this thread!

#4 Posted by Lvenger (19121 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: IT'S JUST A FLING COMICSTOOGE, IT'S DIFFERENT TO WHAT WE HAD! WE'LL ALWAYS HAVE CAPTAIN AMERICA VS KRAVEN THE HUNTER! :P

But thanks man, I appreciate it :)

#5 Posted by Lvenger (19121 posts) - - Show Bio

OK let me make my opening statement. The debate has now started so no interference with it please.

Now I'll start in an obvious place for this fight. Physical stats. I assert that Aquaman is definitely Iron Man's physical superior. Both are over 100 tonners but Aquaman's gotten something of a boost in the New 52. His physical strength feats are certainly impressive

Here he effortlessly lifts a cruise ship out of the water. Cruise shops nowadays range from 80,000-over 100,000 tons on average

And here he throws another crusier at the Dead King in a recent issue of Aquaman

And here he tugs a ship through the water pretty easily

Of course, it's striking power that matters in a fight and Aquaman has plenty of feats to show that he's more than capable of hurting Tony with his blows

Here Aquaman caves in a massive wall on a collapsing island with ease

And the infamous punch that sent Superman flying. It probably didn't hurt Supes that much and it was a sucker punch but it sent a being of Superman's physicality flying through the air. Also this is a good durability feat.

And he blitzes Wonder Woman right across the battlefield. She retaliates with a punch which Arthur shrugs off

As well as possessing incredible strength, Aquaman has plenty of durability feats to shrug off what Iron Man can throw at him

Tanks Black Manta's laser blasts at close range with barely any scratches. Iron Man's repulsar rays and uni beams should be shrugged off to similar effect

Takes another laser blast that blows up a plane and survives the fall with ease. If Iron Man tries an attack like this, Arthur should be able to handle it

Survives an exploding sub no sweat

OK that's enough for an opener I think. Your turn @jwalser3

#6 Edited by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Thanks! Means a lot!

@lvenger Alright, lets get this moving!

So Tony's Extremis armor.... Let me give you the low down about this suit. Tony has full control over the suit, even when he's not in it. Thanks to the Extremis virus he has implanted in the hollows of his bones. It grants him a small healing factor as well as moving at the speed of thought. The armor has many capabilities of past suits and is stronger, faster, and more durable than any in the past.

Release the feats!

Now I'll start in an obvious place for this fight. Physical stats. I assert that Aquaman is definitely Iron Man's physical superior. Both are over 100 tonners but Aquaman's gotten something of a boost in the New 52. His physical strength feats are certainly impressive

It's true Aquaman is a tough cookie. But that's not to say that Iron man hasn't faced people on such levels. But what Iron Man has over Aquaman in this fight is combat speed.

Speed, durability, and strength feat

Just to give you an idea how fast he is with the Extremis Armor. He was adjusting to attacks in less than a second, then under two seconds was able to speedblitz the foe.

Iron Man combat speed > Aquaman combat speed.

Here he effortlessly lifts a cruise ship out of the water. Cruise shops nowadays range from 80,000-over 100,000 tons on average

And here he throws another crusier at the Dead King in a recent issue of Aquaman

And here he tugs a ship through the water pretty easily

They're impressive. I don't have many strength feats on par with Aquaman's. Besides lifting cars and bull dossers.

Of course, it's striking power that matters in a fight and Aquaman has plenty of feats to show that he's more than capable of hurting Tony with his blows

Here Aquaman caves in a massive wall on a collapsing island with ease

And the infamous punch that sent Superman flying. It probably didn't hurt Supes that much and it was a sucker punch but it sent a being of Superman's physicality flying through the air. Also this is a good durability feat.

And he blitzes Wonder Woman right across the battlefield. She retaliates with a punch which Arthur shrugs off

I'm glad you addressed that sucker punch. Haha, I knew that was going to pop up. They're all great feats but nothing Tony can't handle.

Here he is tanking shots from The Sentry!

These couple of scans are impressive because not only does Sentry note his speed in the first scan, Tony gives him a bloody nose in the 5th scan. Now this isn't to say Iron Man is on Sentry's level. In the end Tony had to hack into the disaster clock to stress out Sentry and give him a break down. I'm sure it's safe to say Arthur isn't on Ben's level. Lol.

Then there was the time he fought Red Hulk.

Speed blitzing him, rockets that phased Red Hulk as well.

So facing some big dogs isn't something Tony hasn't faced before.

As well as possessing incredible strength, Aquaman has plenty of durability feats to shrug off what Iron Man can throw at him

Are you sure? BRO? Because Iron Man repulsor >>> Black Manta's optic blasts. Let me show ya!

Not only tanking a Tank Battalion.....
But ripping through them all.

And Arthur was getting brunt up by a Building level+ attack. While Tony has armaments that can hurt class 100 threats...

Arthur should be getting hurt good.

Arthur is a strong guy,I love both characters. But Tony has so much more over him. Such as the following

  • Flight
  • Combat speed
  • Flight speed
  • Projectiles
  • Durability

I will say Aquaman has strength on Iron Man here. :P But they both seem to have the same striking force. Punch a Superman, punch Sentry, eh, what's the difference

. I love Aquaman and have read volume one and two of the new 52. So I know enough about him. If you go to the respect forum I was the first to post the Aquaman vs. Superman and Wonder Woman scans. :P

It'd be a rad fight to see, but in the end Iron Man would come out on top.

Your move buddy. :)

#7 Edited by Lvenger (19121 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

It's true Aquaman is a tough cookie. But that's not to say that Iron man hasn't faced people on such levels. But what Iron Man has over Aquaman in this fight is combat speed.

Speed, durability, and strength feat

Just to give you an idea how fast he is with the Extremis Armor. He was adjusting to attacks in less than a second, then under two seconds was able to speedblitz the foe.

Iron Man combat speed > Aquaman combat speed.

I've already shown you Aquaman bullrushing Wonder Woman who's received flight from Hermes and had already shown superhuman speed in the New 52 so being able to tag her is impressive. Though that's a very good speed feat for Iron Man on land, you forget this is a battle that can take place in the sea as well. For an idea of how fast Aquaman can move in water, here's the plane called The Living Room of Aquaman's former team The Others that can travel at Hypersonic Speeds

Here's the proof of that and hypersonic speeds range from Mach 5 and Mach 10

Yet here, Aquaman is acknowledged as being able to swim at much faster speeds than this plane can achieve

So tell me, can Tony hit that fast moving a target underwater no less? As for land feats, though it isn't much, Aquaman has been shown to be faster than the average Talon which have confirmed superhuman stats

And here he reacts to a falling Mera catching her in mid air easily

Not much to compare to Tony's feat but enough to prove that Aquaman isn't a slouch at speed, particularly if he makes it into the water and becomes a much harder target for Tony to hit.

@jwalser3 said:

I'm glad you addressed that sucker punch. Haha, I knew that was going to pop up. They're all great feats but nothing Tony can't handle.

Here he is tanking shots from The Sentry!

These couple of scans are impressive because not only does Sentry note his speed in the first scan, Tony gives him a bloody nose in the 5th scan. Now this isn't to say Iron Man is on Sentry's level. In the end Tony had to hack into the disaster clock to stress out Sentry and give him a break down. I'm sure it's safe to say Arthur isn't on Ben's level. Lol.

Then there was the time he fought Red Hulk.

Speed blitzing him, rockets that phased Red Hulk as well.

So facing some big dogs isn't something Tony hasn't faced before.

Impressive feats but, first of all, Sentry was clearly not going all out on Tony. He was only trying to capture him and that requires a great deal of holding back on Sentry's part. Secondly, Rulk, when consistently written, is a much lesser character than with the Loeb Force behind him. WWH one shotted him with ease and Thor showed him up easily too. Thirdly, Aquaman has shrugged of his fair share of top tier punches too. I've shown him tank Wonder Woman's assault and now here's one of him shrugging off a massive punch from The Dead King who's shaping up to be a very powerful Aquaman antagonist

So it's fair to see whilst Tony is faster, Aquaman is more than durable enough to withstand what Tony's packing and hit back hard enough to cause a great deal of damage to Tony's armour. It's happened before, healing factor or not.

@jwalser3 said:

Are you sure? BRO? Because Iron Man repulsor >>> Black Manta's optic blasts. Let me show ya!

Not only tanking a Tank Battalion.....
But ripping through them all.

And Arthur was getting brunt up by a Building level+ attack. While Tony has armaments that can hurt class 100 threats...

Arthur should be getting hurt good.

That's taking some low showings of Arthur to suit your argument there. Aquaman tanked an upgraded (it says so in the scans) optic blasts from Black Manta just fine along with tanking an exploding submarine and an exploding plane along with the fall back to Earth. I hardly think that building+ level attacks are enough to KO Arthur. And assuming the repulsar and uni beam rays are a problem, this is how Aquaman can deal with them

Dodges Black Manta's optic blasts which can be replicated with Tony's repulsar/uni beams

Super Leap up to where Tony is. This also accounts for the aerial advantage Tony has given that leapers like Hulk have tagged Tony before

And then take out Tony's Repulsar Rays or uni beam with a well placed trident stab. Look how easily it pierces Manta's armour and it's stated to be an Atlantean weapon of great power. With Arthur using it, it most certainly is

@jwalser3 said:

Arthur is a strong guy,I love both characters. But Tony has so much more over him. Such as the following

  • Flight
  • Combat speed
  • Flight speed
  • Projectiles
  • Durability

I will say Aquaman has strength on Iron Man here. :P But they both seem to have the same striking force. Punch a Superman, punch Sentry, eh, what's the difference

. I love Aquaman and have read volume one and two of the new 52. So I know enough about him. If you go to the respect forum I was the first to post the Aquaman vs. Superman and Wonder Woman scans. :P

It'd be a rad fight to see, but in the end Iron Man would come out on top.

Your move buddy. :)

I believe I've dealt with durability as an advantage of Aquaman, particularly blunt trauma durability but everything else goes to Aquaman. Want to hear his advantages in this fight?

  • Physical strength
  • Striking Power
  • Close quarters combat allowing him to take out Tony's ranged weapons and deal plenty of damage to him
  • The environmental edge. Unlike Tony, Aquaman can use the water to his advantage. It strengthens and refreshes him along with giving him the greater swimming speed meaning Tony won't be able to tag him
  • The environment suiting Aquaman's telepathic powers over ocean lifeforms.

I've illustrated the first four in my first two posts but I'll save the last bullet for later on in the debate. Once Aquaman gets in the water, Tony's going to be in for a great deal of trouble.

#8 Edited by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I'll get to this tonight. I got a few more scans I'd like to get ready any way.

#9 Edited by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Alrighty, alrighty. Lets finish this!

I've already shown you Aquaman bullrushing Wonder Woman who's received flight from Hermes and had already shown superhuman speed in the New 52 so being able to tag her is impressive. Though that's a very good speed feat for Iron Man on land, you forget this is a battle that can take place in the sea as well. For an idea of how fast Aquaman can move in water, here's the plane called The Living Room of Aquaman's former team The Others that can travel at Hypersonic Speeds

Yeah it's impressive, but that's the only combat speed feat you have going for you right now. And I thought this was a no BFR deal? Even so, you think Iron Man will just follow him into the ocean?

As for Hypersonic stuff...

He can reach speeds of Mach 8, damn close to Mach 9

As for reacting to foes moving at such speeds.

Johnny has been shown to be fast enough to race along side Quick Silver. Iron Man was able to swat him away easily.

So tell me, can Tony hit that fast moving a target underwater no less? As for land feats, though it isn't much, Aquaman has been shown to be faster than the average Talon which have confirmed superhuman stats

Dodges a lighting attack
Moves in blurs against a enemy with superhuman stats.

So really, again, Iron Man has this in combat speed.

Impressive feats but, first of all, Sentry was clearly not going all out on Tony. He was only trying to capture him and that requires a great deal of holding back on Sentry's part.

  1. Sentry still noted his speed
  2. Iron Man still gave Sentry a bloody nose
  3. Finally, Sentry "holding back" yes it's true. I put it in italic because Bob had no problem throwing him into the ground twice leaving huge craters. The extent of how much he was holding back is unknown.

Secondly, Rulk, when consistently written, is a much lesser character than with the Loeb Force behind him.

What's your point? In Throne of Atlantis Superman needed help from Wonder Woman lifting an air craft carrier....While in Superman he was lifting the weight of the Earth for 5 days straight. Throwing around an inconsistency argument is pretty weak. Red Hulk is still a durable class 100 fighter, and this was in his own book so it's not like when a character shows up in another they look nerfed.

WWH one shotted him with ease and Thor showed him up easily too.

LOL

You really want to try and bring WWH into this?

  1. Iron Man didn't use the same suit, he had the Hulk Buster Mk. II. And he didn't get one shotted.
Wow. Look how he punched WWH over 3 states!

2. Iron Man was the first to face Hulk when he arrived on Earth and held his own for most of the issue. He fell of course, along with most of Marvel's A-list fighters. So it's not a big sham that Iron Man lost. Hell, the Mark. I was holding Hulk at bay until they both agreed to stop fighting.

3. The Thor fight...Let me break it down for you. Tony came to Thor to talk it out with him. When Thor found out about the whole Civil War mess, let's just say he was pretty p!ssed. So right off the get go you have an enraged Thor vs. Iron Man who isn't even trying to fight...That's not good.

Not only does Thor sucker punch him, Tony's armor still tanked it rather well.

And just to make sure you understand that Thor was going all out.

So bringing up both WWH & Thor is silly.

I'd like to see Aquaman do any better against either one....

Thirdly, Aquaman has shrugged of his fair share of top tier punches too. I've shown him tank Wonder Woman's assault and now here's one of him shrugging off a massive punch from The Dead King who's shaping up to be a very powerful Aquaman antagonist

Ugh.

Vs. She-Hulk

Vs. HulkBuster Mk. I (hacked)

Vs. PowerMan and I don't know

I've already shown him fighting Red Hulk and Sentry. I think it's safe to say he can take what Arthur's serving

That's taking some low showings of Arthur to suit your argument there. Aquaman tanked an upgraded (it says so in the scans) optic blasts from Black Manta just fine along with tanking an exploding submarine and an exploding plane along with the fall back to Earth. I hardly think that building+ level attacks are enough to KO Arthur. And assuming the repulsar and uni beam rays are a problem, this is how Aquaman can deal with them

Okay, here is how Tony has it in the durability department.

Tanks a nuke

Plus, lasers, bombs, bullets, class 100 hits, etc. Tony has better durability.

And Black Manta's optic blast. I get that it's upgraded. But has he been shown to have any optic blast feats any were near these?

Blasting through a horde of enemies, getting out a tank battalion, then he takes out a team busting cyborg
Plus he can reach over 10,000 k

Black Manta's blasts have nothing on Tony's. I'm sorry to tell you this. Also, what's the feats for Manta's helmet? *cough* None *cough*

And if his trident proves to be a problem.

Seriously. Hahaha.

I believe I've dealt with durability as an advantage of Aquaman, particularly blunt trauma durability but everything else goes to Aquaman. Want to hear his advantages in this fight?

  • Physical strength
  • Striking Power
  • Close quarters combat allowing him to take out Tony's ranged weapons and deal plenty of damage to him
  • The environmental edge. Unlike Tony, Aquaman can use the water to his advantage. It strengthens and refreshes him along with giving him the greater swimming speed meaning Tony won't be able to tag him
  • The environment suiting Aquaman's telepathic powers over ocean lifeforms.

I've illustrated the first four in my first two posts but I'll save the last bullet for later on in the debate. Once Aquaman gets in the water, Tony's going to be in for a great deal of trouble.

Boy oh boy. I still see Iron man with

  • Combat speed (I'd like to point out he was trained by Captain America in h2h)
  • Flight
  • Projectiles
  • Durability

While Aquaman has raw strength, IMHO both have equal striking power. Yes Aquaman has the field advantage, but why will Tony just rush into the water. He's faced people like Namor and knows to get out of the water.

Gotta say this is really fun and challenging, haha.

#10 Posted by ComicStooge (12439 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy guacamole.

#11 Edited by Lvenger (19121 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said

Yeah it's impressive, but that's the only combat speed feat you have going for you right now. And I thought this was a no BFR deal? Even so, you think Iron Man will just follow him into the ocean?

As for Hypersonic stuff...

He can reach speeds of Mach 8, damn close to Mach 9

As for reacting to foes moving at such speeds.

Johnny has been shown to be fast enough to race along side Quick Silver. Iron Man was able to swat him away easily.

I never said anything about BFR in the ocean mate. I said that once Arthur gets into the ocean, he's going to have a massive edge against Iron Man. That's a nice reaction feat but I'd like to point out that Johnny wasn't going all out at the speeds he was keeping up with Quicksilver at. And the other feat is a travel speed feat. You haven't shown he can tag a fast swimming Aquaman who will be diving deeper into the ocean if he has any trouble with Tony's ranged attacks. As such, I can say that Tony will be following him into the ocean because how else is he going to land a hit on Arthur? And therein lies Iron Man's downfall which I will expand on later.

@jwalser3 said:

What's your point? In Throne of Atlantis Superman needed help from Wonder Woman lifting an air craft carrier....While in Superman he was lifting the weight of the Earth for 5 days straight. Throwing around an inconsistency argument is pretty weak. Red Hulk is still a durable class 100 fighter, and this was in his own book so it's not like when a character shows up in another they look nerfed.

He didn't need help mate, but if Superman used his planet lifting for 5 days strength on a falling aircraft carrier, it would have broken under the stress. Having Wonder Woman there increased the chances of catching the carrier safely and ensuring the safety of those on board. As for the Rulk consistency, the deal here is that without the Loebforce behind him, Rulk has been placed on a much lower level than Hulk to the point that Iron Man had a much better chance against him and Thor showed him up. Now I would like to note that the Rulk feat uses the Bleeding Edge armour which is superior to the Extremis suit no? In that case, I say it's not a good feat to use given that it isn't the armour with which Iron Man is fighting Aquaman with here.

@jwalser3 said:

LOL

You really want to try and bring WWH into this?

First, let me stop you right here. When I said "WWH one shotted him with ease and Thor showed him up easily too" I was talking about RED HULK. This quote is referring to Red Hulk's more consistent showings as being below Hulk and making a much lesser foe for Iron Man and Thor to face. This is what I meant by the quote. Having said that, let's go through your examples shall we?

@jwalser3 said:
  1. Iron Man didn't use the same suit, he had the Hulk Buster Mk. II. And he didn't get one shotted.
Wow. Look how he punched WWH over 3 states!

2. Iron Man was the first to face Hulk when he arrived on Earth and held his own for most of the issue. He fell of course, along with most of Marvel's A-list fighters. So it's not a big sham that Iron Man lost. Hell, the Mark. I was holding Hulk at bay until they both agreed to stop fighting.

This feat can instantly be discarded since it isn't the Extremis suit that Tony is using in this fight. It's a specially prepped suit Tony made for fighting Hulk and isn't the suit used in the fight. Thus, this is irrelevant to what we are discussing

@jwalser3 said:

3. The Thor fight...Let me break it down for you. Tony came to Thor to talk it out with him. When Thor found out about the whole Civil War mess, let's just say he was pretty p!ssed. So right off the get go you have an enraged Thor vs. Iron Man who isn't even trying to fight...That's not good.

Not only does Thor sucker punch him, Tony's armor still tanked it rather well.

And just to make sure you understand that Thor was going all out.

So bringing up both WWH & Thor is silly.

I'd like to see Aquaman do any better against either one....

Once again, you bring up unreliable feats. I've actually read this issue, it was my first ever Thor comic so let me break it down to you. Despite what Thor was saying, he was still holding back I can assure you. A no holds barred Thor would be one in Warrior's Madness that amps his strength tenfold and who actually uses Mjolnir constructively delivering attacks like the wind of a thousand worlds or the Godblast. That's when Thor isn't holding back. Here, he's still holding back clearly. No full on lightning blasts, no significantly different feats of strength, just a pi$$ed off Thor showing Iron Man who's boss. He's more lax in this fight because of what Tony's done in the Civil War along with making the Ragnarok clone but he's not going all out I can assure you. Plus there's this statement to consider

So unfortunately for your feats here, I've proven this was far from a no holds barred Thor fighting Iron Man. He had the Odinforce here so a no holds barred Thor wouldn't have been as the fight was in that issue.

@jwalser3 said:

Ugh.

Vs. She-Hulk

Vs. HulkBuster Mk. I (hacked)

Vs. PowerMan and I don't know

I've already shown him fighting Red Hulk and Sentry. I think it's safe to say he can take what Arthur's serving

Not if you factor in the environmental advantage along with Arthur's aquatic telepathy providing many sea creatures for distractions and extra annoyances. I'll make a separate post on this for examples on how Aquaman can use the sea for an extra strategic edge over Iron Man

@jwalser3 said:

Okay, here is how Tony has it in the durability department.

Tanks a nuke

Plus, lasers, bombs, bullets, class 100 hits, etc. Tony has better durability.

And Black Manta's optic blast. I get that it's upgraded. But has he been shown to have any optic blast feats any were near these?

Blasting through a horde of enemies, getting out a tank battalion, then he takes out a team busting cyborg
Plus he can reach over 10,000 k

Black Manta's blasts have nothing on Tony's. I'm sorry to tell you this. Also, what's the feats for Manta's helmet? *cough* None *cough*

And if his trident proves to be a problem.

All you prove with the first set of scans is that Iron Man has the better ranged durability. Not the better blunt force trauma durability that Aquaman has in spades from tanking Wonder Woman, the Dead King and a fall from an exploding plane. And I've acknowledged that Iron Man's ranged advantage is an issue for Arthur but you forget that Aquaman is no fool. He's served as King of Atlantis twice in the New 52, has drawn up strategies to attack the surface world and has displayed his improvisational tactician prowess on more than one occasion.

Here he quickly comes up with a plan to take down Cheetah which involves Barry and Wonder Woman distracting her and knocking her into

So it's clear that Arthur is no fool. He's going to know that Iron Man's repulsar rays and uni beams will be a problem and that at a distance, Tony has the edge. Hence my offer for his strategy on dealing with it and bringing the fight into close quarters.

@lvenger said:

Dodges Black Manta's optic blasts which can be replicated with Tony's repulsar/uni beams

Super Leap up to where Tony is. This also accounts for the aerial advantage Tony has given that leapers like Hulk have tagged Tony before

And then take out Tony's Repulsar Rays or uni beam with a well placed trident stab. Look how easily it pierces Manta's armour and it's stated to be an Atlantean weapon of great power. With Arthur using it, it most certainly is

See here for it. And in my separate water environment post, I'll outline a second way Arthur can disable Tony's ranged capabilities. Finally, your magnetism feat is sound but I believe Arthur will have disabled Tony's repulsars and damaged his systems before Tony will think to disarm Aquaman's trident.

@jwalser3 said:

Boy oh boy. I still see Iron man with

  • Combat speed (I'd like to point out he was trained by Captain America in h2h)
  • Flight
  • Projectiles
  • Durability

While Aquaman has raw strength, IMHO both have equal striking power. Yes Aquaman has the field advantage, but why will Tony just rush into the water. He's faced people like Namor and knows to get out of the water.

Gotta say this is really fun and challenging, haha.

I'd also like to note that Aquaman is a trained Atlantean warrior and the Atlanteans were shown to be a skilled warrior race in the Thrones of Atlantis. Only ranged projection durability goes to Tony, blunt force trauma is squarely on Aquaman's side. Regardless of whether Tony's faced people like Namor before, Aquaman will play to his strengths and stay close to the water. In the water, Tony's going to face a whole load of surprises as I shall show in the next post So here are Aquaman's advantages

  • Physical strength
  • Striking Power - Sorry this ball is still in Aquaman's court. He's sent heavy hitters flying, caved through islands with ease and can toss ships like frisbees. This kind of striking power gives Aquaman superiority here.
  • Blunt Force Durability - He'll be able to withstand Tony's hits fairly handily
  • Environmental Advantage
  • Aquatic Telepathy playing into environmental advantage
#12 Posted by Lvenger (19121 posts) - - Show Bio

Now for how the environment gives Aquaman a huge advantage over Aquaman. Cue obligatory "Aquaman is badass despite what everyone says about him meme!"

But jokes aside, Aquaman's aquatic telepathy and adaption to a watery environment will give him a big edge over Iron Man here. Tony won't be confronting Arthur in the air for the most part as if Tony takes to the skies to rain repulsars and uni beams on him, Arthur will take to the seas and dodge and weave through Tony's attempts to blast him. I've already shown he can travel at hypersonic speeds underwater and that you haven't shown Tony can tag a fast moving aquatic bound foe. Eventually, Tony will have to come in after him. And underwater, Arthur is the King. Literally. If Aquaman keeps diving and diving, he could take the battle to a place shrouded in darkness if he wants. And Aquaman can see in total darkness

Iron Man's suit can probably withstand the pressures but one must see a foe to be able to hit him. And if only Aquaman can see his foe, he's the one that can deal more damage.

Of course, this is something Arthur isn't highly likely to do. But there are so many more ways for Arthur to gain an edge. For instance,

Here Aquaman shows off his swimming speed against all these other divers and Atlanteans

And here Aquaman speed blitzes underwater before anyone can react. Tony may speedblitz on land but Aquaman is the king of underwater speedblitzes

And finally, my piece de resistance. Aquaman's ability to communicate with aqauatic life. Let me show you with some examples how this can come into play against Iron Man underwater

So Iron Man's charging towards Aquaman who's bobbed out of the water to attract Tony's attention. Then all of a sudden SURPRISE SHARK ATTACK! Those beasts could pull this on Iron Man and give him some unwanted distractions whilst Arthur goes for the repulsars with his trident

Or how about if Tony gets close enough, he gets him in a lock and summons some flesh eating fish to tear through Tony's armour or even mask making him more susceptible to a KO

These next two feats are about the extent and type of aquatic life Aquaman can summon. Here he telepathically sends out a summons to fish across a wide area. And in this second scan, he sends some seahorses to King Orm

Here he summons loads of fishes and sends out a telepathic message to all the fish that he won't fail to protect them again. Look at all the fish, just look! How will Tony fend off a slam from a whale or being restrained by a squid whilst Arthur takes out vital parts of his armour. Obviously I'm not saying Aquaman's fish solo Iron Man but they can provide crucial distractions for Aquaman to seize the opportunity to take a critical blow against Iron Man and take out his repulsar rays or other vital parts of his armour. Surely this would spell the end for Tony if he's distracted by the fish and other aquatic animals whilst Aquaman moves in for a serious blow?

Well that's Aquaman's telepathy and environmental edge done. Reply if you dare @jwalser3

#13 Edited by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger

I never said anything about BFR in the ocean mate. I said that once Arthur gets into the ocean, he's going to have a massive edge against Iron Man. That's a nice reaction feat but I'd like to point out that Johnny wasn't going all out at the speeds he was keeping up with Quicksilver at. And the other feat is a travel speed feat. You haven't shown he can tag a fast swimming Aquaman who will be diving deeper into the ocean if he has any trouble with Tony's ranged attacks. As such, I can say that Tony will be following him into the ocean because how else is he going to land a hit on Arthur? And therein lies Iron Man's downfall which I will expand on later.

Well I assumed the battle was saying on the island. If you really want to try and use such a strategy. Tony might as well blitz Aquaman and fly in to the atmosphere.

He didn't need help mate, but if Superman used his planet lifting for 5 days strength on a falling aircraft carrier, it would have broken under the stress. Having Wonder Woman there increased the chances of catching the carrier safely and ensuring the safety of those on board. As for the Rulk consistency, the deal here is that without the Loebforce behind him, Rulk has been placed on a much lower level than Hulk to the point that Iron Man had a much better chance against him and Thor showed him up. Now I would like to note that the Rulk feat uses the Bleeding Edge armour which is superior to the Extremis suit no? In that case, I say it's not a good feat to use given that it isn't the armour with which Iron Man is fighting Aquaman with here.

Loebforce isn't real. I didn't know that was Bleeding Edg, my bad.

This feat can instantly be discarded since it isn't the Extremis suit that Tony is using in this fight. It's a specially prepped suit Tony made for fighting Hulk and isn't the suit used in the fight. Thus, this is irrelevant to what we are discussing

I only brought it up because you mentioned WWH. So...

And even if Thor was holding back, Tony still tanked the first shot form a p!ssed off Thor.

Not if you factor in the environmental advantage along with Arthur's aquatic telepathy providing many sea creatures for distractions and extra annoyances. I'll make a separate post on this for examples on how Aquaman can use the sea for an extra strategic edge over Iron Man

I guess those sharks and fish are going to be a huge factor I didn't see coming. Who knew?

Here he quickly comes up with a plan to take down Cheetah which involves Barry and Wonder Woman distracting her and knocking her into

Truly a genius move! *cough* *cough*

See here for it. And in my separate water environment post, I'll outline a second way Arthur can disable Tony's ranged capabilities. Finally, your magnetism feat is sound but I believe Arthur will have disabled Tony's repulsars and damaged his systems before Tony will think to disarm Aquaman's trident.

But magnets are so powerful ICP can't even understand it.

But in all seriousness I'm ready to open votes. I had fun with this match, but it's become us going back to back about striking power. Both have their fair share of feats on that level. The only thing you haven't dissproven is Tony's combat speed... But in the end it's up to the viners to decide who will stand, and who will fall.

#14 Edited by Lvenger (19121 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3: So do you want to open votes or shall we make one last concluding post on why we think our characters win? Up to you as I'm more than happy to go to votes if you want.

EDIT: I thought you'd be aware that the environment could be moved into the water? It wouldn't count as BFR and it wouldn't go against the rules for Aquaman to use the water to his advantage to allow him to dodge Tony's ranged attacks and summon aquatic life to help him. Aquaman's far more likely to do that than Tony will blitz him into the atmosphere IMO.

#16 Edited by Lvenger (19121 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7017 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 My vote goes to you. I personally think Iron Man is heavily underrated on the battle forums. You did a great job going over how fast, strong, and durable Iron Man is in modern times. I also enjoyed how you showed scans of Iron Man's more esoteric abilities, like magnetism. Luckily you didn't use Bleeding Edge because that would have been a stomp.

Online
#18 Posted by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Thanks! I never see him on CAVs and thought it'd be cool. Any who :P

Jwalser3 1

Lvenger 0

#19 Posted by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Also I just want to say that I didn't mean that Thor was using his maximum power. Just that he wasn't playing around. :P

#20 Posted by Pr0metheus (5085 posts) - - Show Bio

Lvenger debated better.

For who wins?

Really depends if Aquaman is allowed to go in the water.

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#21 Posted by Lvenger (19121 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3: That's what I was clarifying.

Jwalser - 1

Lvenger - 1

#22 Posted by theviperrko (369 posts) - - Show Bio
#23 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#24 Posted by i_like_swords (13861 posts) - - Show Bio

This was one of the few debates I followed right from the beginning, and was short enough for me to actually have the effort of reading.

I really like both characters.. and I saw strong points from both debaters.

So, I think the main point was - Aquaman was strong in water, while Iron Man had a huge range advantage.

In terms of Iron Man following Aquaman into the water, I think J was right in saying that Iron Man has dealt with Namor before and would know not to sacrifice his ranged advantage. On the flipside, Iron Man can't wait in the sky forever. He has a power source, however long it may be. He would eventually have to get closer to the water to fight Aquaman.

Ah.. this is so tough.

I'm not voting. Not yet anyway.

#25 Edited by Pr0metheus (5085 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: Hmm?

Well all im saying is if Aquaman cant get in the water hes at a serious disadvantage.

Telling Aquaman he cant go into the water is like telling Superman he cant use the Sun

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#26 Edited by Joygirl (19307 posts) - - Show Bio

Pffff. This is a really hard one.

*transforms thread into the board setting from The Apprentice*

Lvenger, you really impressed me with Aquaman. I had no idea he was that powerful and I was really astounded at how close this was, despite having no preconceptions for either character or debater coming in. I think you did an amazing job pointing out how tough Aquaman is.

But, Jwalser3 had the better debate here I think. I was more convinced when all was said and done that Iron Man will get the win here (despite not liking Iron Man at all). You stuck to your chosen armor (whereas I think Lvenger may have dipped a bit behind the new 52, given Aquaman's stubble in a few scans) as far as I can tell and really impressed me with Iron Man's flat-out statistics and feats, as opposed to performance against comparable/featless characters, or fighting valiantly, yet losing against, superior characters.

Lvenger, you did a great job, but I have to say -- you're fired.

Voting for @jwalser3.

#27 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: Hmm?

Well all im saying is if Aquaman cant get in the water hes at a serious disadvantage.

Telling Aquaman he cant go into the water is like telling Superman he cant use the Sun

okay, I gotta re-read this

#28 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

Good job, my vote is for Jwalser3. Used scans better for his arguments imo, didn't employ ABC logic nor try to low ball everything his opponent has done, stayed on topic.

#29 Posted by Pr0metheus (5085 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl: I'd just like to say he provided a scan of Ironman in different armours.

One was bleeding edge and didnt he say the other one was Thorbuster?

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#30 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, this one is really hard. I read through the debate and really both of you did a very good job. I was going to vote for @jwalser3 but I cahnged my mind toward the end. My vote goes to @lvenger. I think the enviromental advantage is the biggest edge Aquaman has here, and Lvenger did a great job showing it. It's a very close call though.

#32 Posted by Joygirl (19307 posts) - - Show Bio

@pr0metheus: I am pretty sure that's because a certain feat was contested... I forget. Don't feel like re-reading.

#33 Posted by Parallax_Hal_Jordan (863 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: If i can vote,you have mine...you convince me that Aquaman has a good chance against I.M.

#34 Posted by i_like_swords (13861 posts) - - Show Bio

I've come to a decision - @jwalser3 has my vote after a really tough debate. Both guys did well!

#35 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 My vote goes to you. I personally think Iron Man is heavily underrated on the battle forums. You did a great job going over how fast, strong, and durable Iron Man is in modern times. I also enjoyed how you showed scans of Iron Man's more esoteric abilities, like magnetism. Luckily you didn't use Bleeding Edge because that would have been a stomp.

I myself agree with this. I was convinced the near equal stats of IM as well his vast versatility wins this match.

#36 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@jwalser3: That's what I was clarifying.

Jwalser - 1

Lvenger - 1

I vote for Lvenger!

#37 Posted by BOdinson (224 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for @lvenger, really good argument from boths sides.

I think one of the bigger reasons behind me voting for Lvengers has to do with the fact that jwalser couldn't properly read and understand a statement made made Lvenger, he then went on and discussed, showed scans etc from fights that doesn't have anything to do with what Lvenger said.

Perhaps not the biggest issue for sure but it honestly was to a degree a turning point in the debate for me. I know it's small and perhaps inconsequential but it's honest though.

Great debate guys.

#38 Posted by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

@bodinson said:

I think one of the bigger reasons behind me voting for Lvengers has to do with the fact that jwalser couldn't properly read and understand a statement made made Lvenger, he then went on and discussed, showed scans etc from fights that doesn't have anything to do with what Lvenger said.

Uhhmm when you say

WWH one shotted him with ease and Thor showed him up easily too.

Low balling my fighter, I'm going to bring up those battles. Sooo.

@joygirl: I'd just like to say he provided a scan of Ironman in different armours.

One was bleeding edge and didnt he say the other one was Thorbuster?

I brought up Hulk Buster because he was saying WWH oneshotted him in their fight. I didn't know the Red Hulk fight was Bleeding Edge, and I apologized for it.

#39 Edited by Pr0metheus (5085 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@bodinson said:

I think one of the bigger reasons behind me voting for Lvengers has to do with the fact that jwalser couldn't properly read and understand a statement made made Lvenger, he then went on and discussed, showed scans etc from fights that doesn't have anything to do with what Lvenger said.

Uhhmm when you say

WWH one shotted him with ease and Thor showed him up easily too.

Low balling my fighter, I'm going to bring up those battles. Sooo.

Thats actually what you should do to prove there were certain circumstances he probably didnt address,which IMO should actually help.

@pr0metheus said:

@joygirl: I'd just like to say he provided a scan of Ironman in different armours.

One was bleeding edge and didnt he say the other one was Thorbuster?

I brought up Hulk Buster because he was saying WWH oneshotted him in their fight. I didn't know the Red Hulk fight was Bleeding Edge, and I apologized for it.

I understand,i'm just trying to say you both made mistakes,everyone does it :P

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#40 Posted by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

Jwalser3 - 6

Lvenger - 4

#41 Posted by BOdinson (224 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@bodinson said:

I think one of the bigger reasons behind me voting for Lvengers has to do with the fact that jwalser couldn't properly read and understand a statement made made Lvenger, he then went on and discussed, showed scans etc from fights that doesn't have anything to do with what Lvenger said.

Uhhmm when you say

WWH one shotted him with ease and Thor showed him up easily too.

Low balling my fighter, I'm going to bring up those battles. Sooo.

That's the thing though...he didn't low ball your character, well not directly that is.

Here is what was said in the entire context:

Secondly, Rulk, when consistently written, is a much lesser character than with the Loeb Force behind him. WWH one shotted him with ease and Thor showed him up easily too.

He was talking about Rulk being 1 shotted and Thor beating him(Rulk) up easily too. He was not talking about Iron man vs WWH, nor was he referring to the Thor upstaging Iron man(At any time).

All of what he stated in that sentence was part of "point 2" during his argument. He was talking about the Rulk not being as great as he was with the so-called loeb force backing him up.

Now you go and effectively misinterpret the same sentence twice in the same thread? That is what turned the debate for me. You didn't properly read what he said, you only saw what you wanted to see(so-called lowballing your character) and went on about nothing.

I'm not saying you didn't debate good, it was a great debate and no doubt Iron man can beat Aquaman, I just think Aquaman can take him at least 6/10 times all depending in circumstances. As we're all aware off, circumstances is what decides a win in these battles, hence why some have certain specific rules and others(Even with the same combatants) have different rules...all about circumstances, but even then you definitely put up a very good argument for why Iron man can win against Aquaman in some battles and even perhaps stalemate him.

Take it for what it is...The debate itself was pretty much equal for all intents and purposes, it's just that small thing that stood out(misinterpreting statements and takings things out of context).

If that is not a legitimate reason behind a vote, then who cares, I'll retract my vote then, that's not a problem, but like I said, I was just being honest in stating that THAT was the TURNING point in the argument for me.

#42 Edited by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

@bodinson: Okay, I'll just study argument/counter arguments better next time. Thanks for the constructive criticism. :)

#43 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@bodinson: Okay, I'll just study argument/counter arguments better next time. Thanks for the constructive criticism. :)

I bet you never thought they'd be more debate after the debate than the actual debate itself!

#44 Posted by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@bodinson: Okay, I'll just study argument/counter arguments better next time. Thanks for the constructive criticism. :)

I bet you never thought they'd be more debate after the debate than the actual debate itself!

Debateception.

#45 Posted by GodTriggerHulk (1998 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3:

I'm gonna give my vote to jwalser3.

#46 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11987 posts) - - Show Bio
#47 Posted by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

Jwalser3 - 7

Lvenger - 5

#48 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger @jwalser3

Jwalser3 has my vote.

Lvenger, you made a solid start breaking out various high-end feats regarding Arthur's physicals. You also made a strong clarification in the Thor bit that I actually thought was one of this debate's most memorable moments. But there were some bits in your argument that I didn't quite agree with (Diana holding back in her punch should be mentioned, Arthur's Room swimming feat is more travel than combat speed), and I felt Aquaman's advantages weren't as convincing as Iron Man's.

Jwalser3, you had some shaky bits in your argument like the Rulk feat, as well as your later scans for IM's reaction speed (Human Torch, Mallen), which I thought were stretching a bit. That being said, you won me over with the durability part of IM's argument, making good use of the nuke feat. But what really cinched my vote were the advantages in combat speed, projectiles, and durability. You proved that IM has a wider variety of combat options. I thought that you should've put up a tougher fight in your closing argument before going to votes, though.

Overall, good job to the two of you. Fun and enjoyable to read :)

#49 Posted by jwalser3 (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

Jwalser3 - 8

Lvenger - 5

#50 Posted by Blackdog2009 (1820 posts) - - Show Bio

AQUAMAN ftw