Quinlan represented by - i_like_swords. Leia represented by ShootingNova.
Rules
Legends and New Canon to be considered, with Legends taking priority.
Standard equipment.
In character, morals on.
Random encounter with no prior knowledge.
Fight to the death, knockout or incapacitation.
Location - A Jedi Temple (Neutral to both combatants)
The fight will start here, with each combatant starting at opposite sides of the pillars. The battle can go anywhere from there except from outside the temple, which is locked by magical omnipotent forces of lockyness.
Note for viewers
- Please don't interrupt or comment a lot before or during the debate. Leaving a short comment or asking to be tagged for votes is alright, I more just mean posting things like gifs, or opinions on the fight.
- When voting, try to vote based on who debated better as much as you can, opposed to which character you think would win. After all, if one of us hasn't made a crucial point to support our argument, then that's on us.
@i_like_swords: The setting gives Quinlan Vos an edge. His knowledge of the Jedi Temple of his time is superior, since Leia is from a different period. I'd prefer an area which really is more neutral.
The plan was actually to solve Count Dooku vs Darth Maul, but we decided to use underused characters to promote them in battle threads and to have fun.
@shootingnova: I'm guessing you read SOD issue 2 or something went down in it? I haven't read yet it so don't spoil it, but that would be the only reason I would see you two sparking up the Dooku vs Maul again.
@i_like_swords: The setting gives Quinlan Vos an edge. His knowledge of the Jedi Temple of his time is superior, since Leia is from a different period. I'd prefer an area which really is more neutral.
*ahem*
Location - A Jedi Temple (Neutral to both combatants)
@i_like_swords: Yes, but I'm not sure what you are suggesting with that. If you mean Leia automatically gets as much knowledge and experience with the Temple, then fine. I thought you meant the temple itself (ie. Force nexus etc.) would be neutral to them.
@shootingnova: I just meant that it's a random Jedi Temple that neither of them know anything about. Consider it an alternate universe Jedi Temple or a randomly generated one. I just think it's a good setting for a battle opposed to overused Petranaki :p
Speed is a fairly important aspect of a fight in Star Wars, and is often determined by power levels. For instance, the mainstream CW characters like Maul, Ventress, Kenobi and Dooku have all fought each other, and are at relatively similar power levels (in the overall sense, not in a fight scenario), so we know the gap isn't large there if there ever was one. However, Vos and Leia are from different time periods and have never fought a common opponent, which makes things tricky. We can only (and should always) try to base their speed on their actual speed feats first, and then supplement that with their power showings. For example, due to her sheer power we can infer that Darth Traya (an exceptionally powerful being) can expend some of this power onto augmenting her Force speed, even if he we haven't necessarily had a practical example of it. Vos and Leia should be relatively even here but I think it's worth finding out in any case.
So for combat speed, I'll begin with Vos fighting too fast for a Republic Clone ARC Trooper to see clearly.
It's true that the trooper had taken a blow to the head prior to this, and that arguably could have made it harder for him to see these two. He said he was dizzy and dazed, and maybe it was the concussion, but he also says that he "forced himself to focus", was able to recognize that these two were "going at it", and was also capable of picking up his rifle and aiming. He was as likely to hit Aayla (his Commander) as he was Quinlan, and he thinks to himself "they moved so fast". So while again, it is arguable the trooper's injuries contributed to this feat, I still see it as completely valid, and obviously moving faster than the human eye can see clearly is not a feat outside the range of capabilities of a Jedi. And what's impressive is this is an ARC Clone Trooper. He not only has the same genes as Jango Fett (which inherently makes him a very capable marksman, as per Blood Ties), but he is one of the elite. He isn't just some mook, he's a soldier with the genetic code ingrained in him which has allowed others to combat Force Users, yet he couldn't see more than a blur between either of these two.
It's also worth noting that these two were leaving very large afterimage trails while fighting.
A few more examples of when Vos has left large streaking afterimages in combat:
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For reaction speed, Vos is capable of deflecting and dodging numerous blaster bolts from many different directions.
Gallery
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As you can see above, Vos has been involved in engagements where his opponents have been in the range of dozens, all blaster-wielding, firing at him, and they've simply been unable to hit him. Although I will admit Vos received help from Aayla in the first set of scans afterwards, and obviously in the second set Kenobi jumps in for him, but I'm more focusing on his ability to react to so many shooters at once.
He's also managed to angle his lightsaber in such a way that he deflected three droideka bolts simultaneously, which is impressive because he would need to recognize the exact trajectory of every bolt and line it up before they reach the target or go past him.
And finally we have travel speed. While I don't know the exact context of Leia's travel speed feats, I do know that at face value they are very impressive. I personally think travel speed very rarely makes an impact on a fight, but just for the sake of it, here's a travel speed feat for Vos which is quite impressive.
A rock is a few feet above a Nightsister's head. At this point Vos is sitting on the ground a few feet away from the Nightsister after some kind of Force Whirlwind. He gets up, ignites his lightsaber, sprints over to her and cuts the rock in half with it barely descending a foot. What's more impressive is that the rock may have actually been thrown at her opposed to falling on her, meaning gravity might not have been the only factor in it's descent.
I think that does it for speed. Strength and durability may not matter too much but if they become a factor I'll drop some of Vos' best feats.
Lightsaber and Martial Abilities
Vos appears to be a primarily physical combatant although has used the Force at times. Lightsaber combat is where he excels, but he also chains in powerful physical kicks as you'll see throughout my posts.
Here while holding back, he manages to stave off a bloodlusted Aayla Secura (who admittedly was very inexperienced at this time). It's mostly impressive due to the fact he was able to meet her strike for strike without the intention of ever hurting her, while she was going straight for blood.
Gallery
Here, Vos duels two Morgukai warriors. The Father Morgukai was able to meet Tholme's blade evenly, while the Son would go on to duel evenly with Master Aayla Secura for a very prolonged period of time (eventually losing). What makes this even more impressive is that Vos was actually severely injured prior to this fight (which he notes), due to being stabbed by numerous thrown shuriken and having no time to really recover (which you'll see later on under Telekinesis).
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He decapitates the Father after showing his skill with an inverted Shien variant of Jar'Kai dual blade swordplay, but is then stunned and incapacitated by the Son after a very long and hard duel. Still, it's a showing of lightsaber and martial skill as well as resiliency and endurance, due to his injuries and also because he no-sold one of their physical strikes at one point.
Vos' most impressive dueling feat is having a very close fight against Sora Bulq, someone who I'd say was approaching Mace Windu. That's not to say Vos would always take the most solid of majorities over Bulq, but in this case he did win the fight, in a scenario where his Master Tholme could not do the same.
Gallery
And it's also worth noting that Vos was emotionally conflicted during this bout, and was yet to redeem himself. In this scenario against Leia he'd be coming in with a clear head and would have no reason to give in to or have his dark emotions provoked, so he should be an even more formidable opponent for her.
For purely martial ability, here is Vos handily stomping Tor Skoll and beating him to the ground with physical strikes.
Gallery
Now just to round off, I'll make note of Vos' various Forms and how he uses them.
Vos is a Master of Ataru, and should pose a challenge for even the most adept lightsaber duelists.
Quinlan Vos is a master of the Ataru form known for his unconventional outlook and sarcastic sense of humour. He skilled and aggressive warrior, Master Vos should prove a challenge for even the most adept lightsaber duelists!
Clone Wars Adventures: Ataru Mastery Pack
Vos can also be inferred to have mastered, or at the very least become proficient in Shien, due to the fact he often holds his lightsaber with an inverted grip and because he is very proficient in blaster deflection and redirection (one of the primary focuses on Shien). He had also learnt the basics of Vaapad under the tutelage of Sora Bulq. He would go on to use a Vaapad maneuver against Mace Windu in a sparring match. Now, we know Bulq at least tested Vos in the basics of Vaapad and apparently went no further (need to find the scan of this), but apparently there is an excerpt in Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force in which Windu notes that Vos could have mastered Vaapad, from his observations. I'm not sure if I'll be able to find it for a little while but I'll try my best to dig it up. In any case, Vos should have the basics of Vaapad down, which has it's uses.
Gallery
As a feat this is also decent. Vos some time before his prime being able to do relatively well against Windu in a sparring match while discussing other matters is good, especially seeing as Vos was years out of practice. He'd likely pose a much greater challenge to Windu in his prime, with a clear head and with recent use of his lightsaber.
It's worth noting that in order to properly use Vaapad, one must have attained a high-end mastery of multiple other Forms, which supports my theory of Vos also mastering Shien on top of Ataru.
Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII.
Insider #62: Fightsaber Credit to ShootingNova (LOL)
Vos tends to attack using Ataru primarily, although when angered or frustrated he will begin dabbling in Vaapad (which I don't see as the most likely scenario here). When facing an opponent with a powerful offence, he will fall back to his Shien for a more defensive approach (like he appeared to do against Bulq). He also makes use of powerful and acrobatic kicks often which makes him that little bit more versatile.
Force Powers
Force Choke/Grip
While Vos was a Dark Jedi he demonstrated proficiency in Force Grip/Choke, being able to telekinetically dominate both Aayla Secura and K'Kruhk.
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Admittedly I can't think of either of their telekinetic feats which would make this more impressive, but I will look into it.
Telekinesis
Vos is a pretty powerful telekinetic who frequently ravages his environment when releasing telekinetic assaults.
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As you can see above he causes a large amount of damage to a portion of a building with a Force Push in the first two scans. In the third, while he telekinetically grips Aayla he also levitates dozens of rocks varying in size as residue of his assault. In the last two he telekinetically launches multiple Anzati (Force Sensitive vampire-like beings) while causing some environmental damage.
Force pushes an ARC trooper hard enough to knock him unconscious, break an arm and give him a concussion:
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Telekinetically pushing a speeder:
(worth noting that this was during Order 66, where Vos had been trying to recover after being shot directly by a tank. Evidently he wasn't at 100% here).
Holding up a large rock/boulder for a prolonged period of time for Aayla to jump on, even after sustaining terrible wounds from thrown shuriken:
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For Force combat that is about all there is to show which is combatively applicable. Vos does have strong showings of Force Concealment but I'm undecided on how much of an indicator of power they would be. In any case I think I've done Vos justice so far.
@i_like_swords: Looks like a solid opener. I've only skimmed through it thus far - I may have to respond tomorrow, but I may be able to buy enough time tonight to respond.
@i_like_swords: Alright. I'll have to respond tomorrow. I'll try to be an extensive and detailed as I can without overwhelming myself and the audience.
Speed is a fairly important aspect of a fight in Star Wars, and is often determined by power levels. For instance, the mainstream CW characters like Maul, Ventress, Kenobi and Dooku have all fought each other, and are at relatively similar power levels (in the overall sense, not in a fight scenario), so we know the gap isn't large there if there ever was one. However, Vos and Leia are from different time periods and have never fought a common opponent, which makes things tricky. We can only (and should always) try to base their speed on their actual speed feats first, and then supplement that with their power showings. For example, due to her sheer power we can infer that Darth Traya (an exceptionally powerful being) can expend some of this power onto augmenting her Force speed, even if he we haven't necessarily had a practical example of it. Vos and Leia should be relatively even here but I think it's worth finding out in any case.
Agreed. Of course you would use Traya as an example - my example in the other thread. :(
I'd say Force speed should not be of consequence in this scenario, to be honest. It's the least of the combatants' concerns.
So for combat speed, I'll begin with Vos fighting too fast for a Republic Clone ARC Trooper to see clearly.
It's true that the trooper had taken a blow to the head prior to this, and that arguably could have made it harder for him to see these two. He said he was dizzy and dazed, and maybe it was the concussion, but he also says that he "forced himself to focus", was able to recognize that these two were "going at it", and was also capable of picking up his rifle and aiming. He was as likely to hit Aayla (his Commander) as he was Quinlan, and he thinks to himself "they moved so fast". So while again, it is arguable the trooper's injuries contributed to this feat, I still see it as completely valid, and obviously moving faster than the human eye can see clearly is not a feat outside the range of capabilities of a Jedi. And what's impressive is this is an ARC Clone Trooper. He not only has the same genes as Jango Fett (which inherently makes him a very capable marksman, as per Blood Ties), but he is one of the elite. He isn't just some mook, he's a soldier with the genetic code ingrained in him which has allowed others to combat Force Users, yet he couldn't see more than a blur between either of these two.
It's also worth noting that these two were leaving very large afterimage trails while fighting.
It was afterglows, not afterimages. The trails themselves are fairly large which makes the showing quite good, but to be honest, the showing is only a notch or two ahead of mediocre Jedi.
As for the clone's inability to properly track their movements, I'd say this is a combination of the Jedi's Force Speed and the mental issues the clone was having. Aayla and Quinlan moving in a blur to an injured clone's eyes is good but honestly probably not that impressive as a whole.
A few more examples of when Vos has left large streaking afterimages in combat:
Again, afterglows, not afterimages. There is a distinction which Silver did cover in his blog some time ago - in short, afterimages are clearer and more precise and tend to reflect greater speed and precision than afterglows, which are just large blurs of color. This isn't to say Quinlan's showings are poor, by any standard, and they aren't, but I simply think that afterimages may be good but not to an overly impressive extent.
Leia has a few decent combat speed showings as well:
Speedblitzing a snake-bird:
On the way down, a cold shiver of danger sense raced along Leia's spine, and she felt something hungry descending on her from above. The hiss of air rushing over wing scales began to rise behind her, and she rolled into a Force flip and ignited her lightsaber, bringing the blade up through the body of something huge, green, and musty smelling.
The snake-bird fell away in two pieces.
Source: Dark Nest III: The Swarm War
Killing a man before Han Solo can straighten up:
Han dragged himself out, catching his scalp on something and cursing. When he straightened up, Leia was standing over what Han could only describe as a dead guy. He was in civilian clothing and looked about thirty. He wouldn’t be seeing thirty-one, that was for sure.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines
Speedblitzing a droid and a man, respectively:
"Your cell door has malfunctioned." The droid planted its foot and began to bring up the heavy stun blaster in its right arm. "Return to your cell and remain-"
Leia flicked her finger at the EverAlert's head and used the Force to flip its primary circuit breaker. The switch lay hidden beneath its neck armor, but that was no hindrance to a Jedi.
"-staaaationaaaar..."
The droid's chin slumped against its chest, and the stun bolt it had been preparing ricocheted harmlessly off the floor.
Source: Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen
"Stang!" the older one said. "She's-"
Leia swept her arm in their direction, using the Force to jerk both guards forward. She slammed them into the blast door, then dropped them across the threshold so the cell block could not be sealed off without crushing them.
Source: Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen
Leia has also formed a shield out of her blade along with Saba Sebatyne, which is impressive because their synergy is sufficient to avoid their blades from ever hindering or coming into contact with the other's:
Leia and Saba activated their lightsabers and began to weave an impenetrable shield of light, synchronizing their movements through the battle-meld so that one blade was always in position to block without interfering with the other.
Source: Dark Nest III: The Swarm War
She also steps out of range of Yaqeel, a Jedi who was turned insane by Abeloth, in order to dodge the attack. It's fairly impressive because Yaqeel actually lands in front of Leia when she falls:
Yaqeel gave a startled cry, her knees buckling as she landed in front of Not-Leia. She activated her lightsaber and flicked her wrist around in a clumsy attack, but Not-Leia had already stepped out of range.
Source: Fate of the Jedi: Abyss
For reaction speed, Vos is capable of deflecting and dodging numerous blaster bolts from many different directions.
This is a good showing, and it also begins to dabble into martial agility, which, as an Ataru practitioner, should be one of Quinlan's strong points, and it is. Quinlan is one of the most agile characters in the Order, which will be of benefit to him against Leia. I am not so certain his raw speed is a match for Leia's, though, but as I said, it is of no consequence, or only limited significance at best.
As you can see above, Vos has been involved in engagements where his opponents have been in the range of dozens, all blaster-wielding, firing at him, and they've simply been unable to hit him. Although I will admit Vos received help from Aayla in the first set of scans afterwards, and obviously in the second set Kenobi jumps in for him, but I'm more focusing on his ability to react to so many shooters at once.
His reaction speeds are strong but I highly doubt reaction levels would be an issue in a fight against Leia and Quinlan.
He's also managed to angle his lightsaber in such a way that he deflected three droideka bolts simultaneously, which is impressive because he would need to recognize the exact trajectory of every bolt and line it up before they reach the target or go past him.
It really depends on whether you believe that the droideka bolts were simply all lined up in plainly linear pattern, or whether Quinlan's Force Senses allowed him to place his lightsaber in the most appropriate position to repel all three bolts at once, or a bit of both. I'd say it was a bit of both.
I suppose I should begin to respond with some feats for Leia. In the Thrawn trilogy, which is 9 ABY (Leia does not become a Jedi until 35-36 ABY in the Dark Nest trilogy), Leia is able to respond to Force Lightning and deflect it on a lightsaber.
Mara winced in sympathetic pain as Solo was thrown backwards into the guardrail at the front of the hologram pit. Through the crackle of the lightning she heard Organa Solo shout her husband's name and jump to his side, dropping her blaster and igniting her lightsaber just in time to catch the third blast of lightning on the green-white blade.
Source: The Last Command (Credit to Silver2467)
As far as I'm concerned, Force Lightning travels at about the same speed as natural lightning or electricity, so to be able to properly react to it is a good showing on Leia's part, especially since this is before her prime by a significant margin.
And finally we have travel speed. While I don't know the exact context of Leia's travel speed feats, I do know that at face value they are very impressive. I personally think travel speed very rarely makes an impact on a fight, but just for the sake of it, here's a travel speed feat for Vos which is quite impressive.
A rock is a few feet above a Nightsister's head. At this point Vos is sitting on the ground a few feet away from the Nightsister after some kind of Force Whirlwind. He gets up, ignites his lightsaber, sprints over to her and cuts the rock in half with it barely descending a foot. What's more impressive is that the rock may have actually been thrown at her opposed to falling on her, meaning gravity might not have been the only factor in it's descent.
Running a few feet in the time it takes for a rock to fall a foot is actually not too impressive as a showing. That really shouldn't be much ahead of any typical Jedi to be honest.
For Leia's feats, she did run several kilometers in what appeared to be and should have been a few seconds:
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I don't think it should be hard to grasp the concept of a Wormhole capable of destroying entire fleets bearing down on the Eclipse taking only a few seconds to destroy the ship. As for the actual length of the ship, which is larger than an entire fleet, it is ten miles from stern-to-stern:
"The Emperor's command vessel, ten miles from stern to stern..."
She also managed to run three levels above Han Solo in the time he took for him to say three short sentences (and I believe Han Solo started out in front of Leia also):
"Jaden, Avinoam, we need backup! Everyone else, get that crate fired up and out of here. We've got peepers across the way."
By the time he had finished, Leia was bounding up the stairs toward the pedbridge three levels above.
Source: Fate of the Jedi: Abyss
I'd say Leia's running speed feats are significantly better, but it's hard to say how much they translate into a fight, since Quinlan and Leia are dueling, not racing. However, running speed should be able to translate to combat speed at all times, but combat speed may not always be able to translate to running speed. For instance, Dooku has remarkable combat speed, but he has no running speed feats (aside from possibly catching up to Quinlan Vos, which is ambiguous), and his style of Makashi is more focused on precise footwork than racing. However, if he did manage any feat of running speed (as with any character), I'd say that should count for combat speed as well, since one should be able to move their hands and arms at least as quickly as their legs, whilst the inverse is sometimes different. Now, of course, this only applies to running speed, and not travel speed in ways such as Superman's flight speeds.
I think that does it for speed. Strength and durability may not matter too much but if they become a factor I'll drop some of Vos' best feats.
I highly doubt these would be of importance.
Vos appears to be a primarily physical combatant although has used the Force at times. Lightsaber combat is where he excels, but he also chains in powerful physical kicks as you'll see throughout my posts.
I do think Vos is primarily a physical combatant, but he does make use of Force attacks and kinetic combat in conjunction with his blade, which does add some flavor into his style, but then, Leia does the same. She also has another edge which I'll discuss later.
Here while holding back, he manages to stave off a bloodlusted Aayla Secura (who admittedly was very inexperienced at this time). It's mostly impressive due to the fact he was able to meet her strike for strike without the intention of ever hurting her, while she was going straight for blood.
It mostly consists of her blocking her strikes which never appeared to be very skilful or refined at all. It seems more like the blows would be painfully obvious, and Aayla is basically featless at this time.
Here, Vos duels two Morgukai warriors. The Father Morgukai was able to meet Tholme's blade evenly, while the Son would go on to duel evenly with Master Aayla Secura for a very prolonged period of time (eventually losing). What makes this even more impressive is that Vos was actually severely injured prior to this fight (which he notes), due to being stabbed by numerous thrown shuriken and having no time to really recover (which you'll see later on under Telekinesis).
This is a somewhat good showing, but it's hard to properly quantify the Morgukai's skills. They did beat Tholme, but then, Tholme never impressed me as a combatant, and he really was quite mediocre. Quinlan beating one before being saved by Aayla whilst injured is a good feat, though.
Vos' most impressive dueling feat is having a very close fight against Sora Bulq, someone who I'd say was approaching Mace Windu. That's not to say Vos would always take the most solid of majorities over Bulq, but in this case he did win the fight, in a scenario where his Master Tholme could not do the same.
And it's also worth noting that Vos was emotionally conflicted during this bout, and was yet to redeem himself. In this scenario against Leia he'd be coming in with a clear head and would have no reason to give in to or have his dark emotions provoked, so he should be an even more formidable opponent for her.
This is a circumstantial showing. He was being helped by Aayla at the end, whereas Sora was winning before (mostly via telekinesis, but regardless). For all intents and purposes, before that, I don't think I ever saw Sora actually attacking him with a blade, either, and he was just taunting Quinlan with Dun Moch along with Dooku's hologram. As far as I am concerned, they were trying to goad Quinlan Vos, not outright kill him (at least not until the end). Vos then killing Bulq with Aayla's help is entirely circumstantial.
Quinlan was faring no better than Tholme did anyway. Sora Bulq's mastery of all the lightsaber forms, his capacity to contend with Windu in sheer skill, and his accolade as one of the single best lightsaber duelists in the Order's history should afford him a clear edge over Quinlan Vos.
Regarding his emotions, I'm not entirely sure that really hindered him. His emotions and anger did allow him to beat Tol Skorr.
For purely martial ability, here is Vos handily stomping Tor Skoll and beating him to the ground with physical strikes.
It's Tol Skorr, not Tor Skoll, and Skorr was hardly an impressive combatant anyways. Quinlan beating him with Dark Rage is good but not entirely applicable here.
Now just to round off, I'll make note of Vos' various Forms and how he uses them.
Vos is a Master of Ataru, and should pose a challenge for even the most adept lightsaber duelists.
Quinlan Vos is a master of the Ataru form known for his unconventional outlook and sarcastic sense of humour. He skilled and aggressive warrior, Master Vos should prove a challenge for even the most adept lightsaber duelists!
Clone Wars Adventures: Ataru Mastery Pack
Eh.... not sure if that source is canon, but even if it is, all it says is that Vos should be a challenge for the most adept duelists, not that he would be a challenge to them. We can already say this isn't the case given how Agen Kolar stomped Quinlan Vos with laughable ease:
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By virtue of canonical showings, not ambiguously canon and wishy-washy wording of an accolade, we can identify that Quinlan is in fact multiple tiers behind the most skilful duelists in the Order and would lose handily to them.
Vos can also be inferred to have mastered, or at the very least become proficient in Shien, due to the fact he often holds his lightsaber with an inverted grip and because he is very proficient in blaster deflection and redirection (one of the primary focuses on Shien). He had also learnt the basics of Vaapad under the tutelage of Sora Bulq. He would go on to use a Vaapad maneuver against Mace Windu in a sparring match. Now, we know Bulq at least tested Vos in the basics of Vaapad and apparently went no further (need to find the scan of this), but apparently there is an excerpt in Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force in which Windu notes that Vos could have mastered Vaapad, from his observations. I'm not sure if I'll be able to find it for a little while but I'll try my best to dig it up. In any case, Vos should have the basics of Vaapad down, which has it's uses.
Vos mastering Shien is not confirmed - and this cannot be inferred simply because of a stance or his proficiency in blast deflection, which is one of the primary strengths of Shii-Cho as well, and the basic tenants of Shii-Cho are taught to every Jedi initiate. Vos is skilled in Shien, I suppose, but saying he mastered it would be going too far, especially since it is utterly devoid of conclusive evidence.
As for Vaapad - Quinlan learnt very little in Vaapad and Mace Windu instructed him to not use it again, which Quinlan agreed to do. I highly doubt Vaapad would turn up in this fight. Quinlan displaying one maneuver of Vaapad is hardly going to be of consequence anyway.
As a feat this is also decent. Vos some time before his prime being able to do relatively well against Windu in a sparring match while discussing other matters is good, especially seeing as Vos was years out of practice. He'd likely pose a much greater challenge to Windu in his prime, with a clear head and with recent use of his lightsaber.
It's a decent showing, but this was only a spar where Windu appeared to be having an edge, and Quinlan Vos had to utilize a Vaapad technique (which surprised Windu) in order to delay the fight. We've already seen Quinlan Vos losing and even getting stomped by duelists of inferior quality to Windu, so to suggest Quinlan could properly contend with Windu in a realistic fighting situation is stretching, in my opinion.
It's worth noting that in order to properly use Vaapad, one must have attained a high-end mastery of multiple other Forms, which supports my theory of Vos also mastering Shien on top of Ataru.
Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII.
Insider #62: Fightsaber
Credit to ShootingNova (LOL)
LOL at crediting me. Well, to be honest, Quinlan learning one or two maneuvers of Vaapad are not conclusive of actually achieving or controlling it properly. He never trained in the actual technique.
Vos tends to attack using Ataru primarily, although when angered or frustrated he will begin dabbling in Vaapad (which I don't see as the most likely scenario here). When facing an opponent with a powerful offence, he will fall back to his Shien for a more defensive approach (like he appeared to do against Bulq). He also makes use of powerful and acrobatic kicks often which makes him that little bit more versatile.
I strongly disagree with Vaapad. As I said before, Mace told Quinlan to not utilize Vaapad again and Quinlan agreed.
Now, for some of Leia's showings, and how they compare to Quinlan Vos. Before I post any feats, I do want to preface that you neglected the most realistic showings Quinlan Vos had as a duelist - which were fighting evenly with Aayla Secura and Tholme (I suppose it may be admissible that Quinlan is above Tholme, but only marginally), and these are fights which do not contain circumstances or anything of the sort. These feats are easier to compare to Leia's.
In 13 ABY (again, Leia has some minimal training, but she does not become a Jedi until 35-36 ABY), Leia kills Beldorion in combat (Beldorion is also amped because the fight takes place on Nam Chorios):
In the curtains of sun-glittering dust that filled the open gateway of the launch bay a woman stood, slender and tiny in the moving aura of misty light.Taselda? His old rival, his old enemy, flashed to mind . . . No. The little Jedi woman, the woman Ashgad had brought, the woman Dzym had wanted, a small shining figure in the shadows, with the pale glory of a lightsaber shining like tamed starfire in her hand.
"Don't test me, little Princess." His own blade stretched forth with a deadly thrumming, a pallid and sickly violet. "It has been years. I may be a lazy old slug now, but I am Beldorion still."
Heart beating fast, Leia studied him, remembering how Jabba had moved, sidelong and looping, using the center of the body as a balance point. She recalled the one time Jabba had become displeased with someone at his court--the fat housekeeper who danced or was it his long-suffering cook--and had gone after her or him with a stick. Recalled the deadly speed of even that obese and sluggish bulk. Yet she felt no fear. She didn't reply and could feel that it displeased him. He was the kind, she realized, who liked to expound before he killed. Good.
"You were a sweet little girl. Don't make me--" Leia struck. Step, step, thrust, as Callista had shown her, a hard clean slash like diminutive lightning, and Beldorion, still expounding, barely got out of the way. But his counterstrike was unbelievably fast, the strength of it nearly breaking her wrists as she intercepted it on the blade, the doubled vibration roaring in her head and in her bones. The blades twined, snarled, Leia twisting out from under another descending blow and barely dodging when the descending swerved to lateral an old trick, Callista had said, but it took practice and left you open. Leia dodged back, shaken by the Hutt's sheer, animal strength.
She stepped back in, pressing him, her attention narrowed to nothing but the monstrous thing before her and the shining blades. Nothing else existed in her mind. He had enormous striking range, flinging forward like a serpent, so that she threw herself sidelong, rolled--Thank you for the practice, Callista, Luke--under the paralyzing wallop of his tail and was on her feet again and going in, the blade seeming to stream fire from her hand. Not a second, not a moment, to lose--the plague rising up from this dim-shining world the monster coming toward her again, rutilant eyes staring. He struck with his tail again, hundreds of kilos flashing with the speed of a whip. She barely dodged, wishing she had Luke's acrobatic training, his ability to Force-lift. The blades tangled, parted, Leia panting as she leapt sideways again, sparring for distance, watching the tail, fighting to remain close enough to strike. In and out, Callista had said. It's the only way for a woman to fight.
Like a huge serpent he struck, and she raised her blade to defend, her mind open with the Force, feeling before he did so that he was going to switch to lateral again. He did, and she was in under the blow and slashing a long, streaming, sidelong cut that went through the soft green body like burning wire. She flung herself past him, away from him, fast, for the huge bulk of him burst open, severed clean through, mammoth gouts of fluid and flesh and organs exploding soddenly forth. She heard him bellow with rage, once--saw the hot smoke-colored blade of his lightsaber go whirling, end over end. Then he was collapsing like a punctured balloon, like an empty sack, and Leia stood panting, covered in slime, her own blade burning in her hand, as Luke flung himself out from under the Headhunter and into its cockpit.
Dripping with filth, she saluted him with the blade, and Luke saluted back, their eyes meeting for an instant before he slammed the cockpit shut. Luke knew what it was that he saw. Her first victory. The victory over the shadow of Vader. The victory of acceptance of herself.
Source: Planet of Twilight
There is a fairly notable instance of Leia displaying sufficient precognition to predict exactly where Beldorion would strike, and then launching a preemptive attack. It is similar to the basic precognition used passively by Jedi and Sith, but this is to a greater extent. Anyways, Beldorion is mostly featless, so it lies in the fact that he is amped and that Leia is relatively inexperienced/long before her prime by this period which makes the feat impressive.
She has also beaten Alema Rar in 36 ABY after only a year (likely less) of training and still a Jedi apprentice, by virtue of amputating one of her lekkus:
"Alema Rar!" Leia said. "I've been looking forward to this."
Leia reached back and caught one of the last standing Unu soldiers in a Force grasp, then brought her arm forward and hurled the insect sideways down the corridor. She followed a few steps behind, using its body as a shield, listening to shatter gun pellets drum into its carapace.
A couple of moments later, she heard the snap-hiss of an igniting lightsaber, then a blade so blue it was almost black sliced the insect in half. Leia pressed the attack, leaping between the body halves as they dropped away, hitting Alema with a Force shove and bringing her own blade around in an overhand power strike.
Alema barely got her guard up in time, and sparks filled the air as the two blades met. Leia brought her foot up in a driving stomp kick that rocked the Twi'lek back on her heels, then rolled her lightsaber into a horizontal slash at Alema's limp arm.
Alema had no choice except to pivot away and bring her weapon around in a desperate block that left her sideways and out of position. Leia swung her foot around in a powerful roundhouse kick that caught the Twi'lek behind the knees and swept both legs.
Alema landed flat on her back, her mouth gaping and her green eyes wide with alarm. Leia allowed herself a small smirk of satisfaction-recalling how lopsided the combat had been in Alema's favor the last time they fought-then blocked a desperate slash at her ankles and slipped into a counter, angling the tip of her blade toward the Twi'lek's heart.
Before Leia could drive the thrust home, a thrumming mass of blue chitin hit her in the chest and bowled her over backward. She tried to bring her lightsaber up and found her arms pinned to her chest, then her attacker pressed the muzzle of a shatter gun to her ribs. She used the Force to push the weapon away, but then the insect's mandibles were clamped around her head, its needle-sharp proboscis darting toward her eye.
Leia shot her free hand up between its mandibles, catching the proboscis between two fingers and continuing to shove until it snapped. The Gorog let out a distressed whistle and bore down with its mandibles, and the edge of her face exploded into pain. But by then she was shoving at the insect with the Force, opening enough of a gap so she could bring her lightsaber up and slice her attacker in two.
Leia started to spring up-until a storm of blaster bolts streamed past overhead, tearing into a trio of Gorog at her feet. Half a dozen crew members rushed past and crashed into the wall of insects in a deafening cacophony of blows and small-arms fire, then Bwua'tu appeared at her side, reaching down to help her up.
"Princess! Are you-"
"Fine!" Leia brought her feet under her, automatically raising her lightsaber in a high block. "Get ba-"
Alema charged out of the melee, her lightsaber already descending for the kill. Leia caught the attack on her blade, then delivered a Force-enhanced punch to the Twi'lek's chitin-armored midsection.
It was like hitting a wall. She felt a bone snap in her hand, and she did not even drive Alema farenough away to buy space to stand. The Twi'lek brought her knee up under Leia's chin, snapping her head back with such force that her vision went black for a moment.
Leia lashed out with her free arm, hooking it around the knee that had just struck her, then launched herself into a back roll. Alema had to sprang in the opposite direction, executing a backflip, and they both came up on their feet facing each other. Leia's hand throbbed, but not so badly that it prevented her from grasping her lightsaber handle with both hands.
Bwua'tu and the rest of the crew members were behind Alema, pressing the attack on the Gorog and driving them back toward the capture bay. On the other side of the hatch, Leia sensed Saba and the Noghri, struggling to override the security system so they could join the battle. Coming down the corridor behind her, working their way through the smoke left by the Grendyl's grenade, Leia heard the distant drone of the surviving assassin bugs.
Alema studied Leia with narrowed eyes. "You've been practicing."
Leia shrugged. "A little."
"It won't matter," Alema sneered. "You're too old to start being a real Jedi now."
Leia raised her brow. "I think I need to teach you some manners."
Leia sprang forward, once again attacking the side with Alema's crippled arm. This time, the Twi'lek did not make the mistake of underestimating her opponent. She gave ground quickly, pivoting around so that her crippled side was protected.
Their blades clashed time and again, each Jedi augmenting their lightsaber strikes with Force shoves and telekinesis attacks, each trying to take advantage of the other's weakness. Leia's face had become so swollen that she could barely see out of one eye, and Alema kept circling to find a blind spot. As Alema tried to protect her weak side, Leia kept slipping toward it, forcing the Twi'lek to retreat toward the security hatch. All the time, the drone of the assassin bugs drew nearer.
Then Bwua'tu and the Ackbar 's crew began to overwhelm Alema's company of insect-soldiers, forcing them past her toward the access terminal. Though the Twi'lek's back was now to the main fight, as the admiral and his followers drew closer to the terminal, the knowledge came to her through Gorog's collective mind. Her eyes flashed with alarm, then she sprang back, locked her blade on, and hurled her lightsaber at Leia's legs.
Leia had no choice but to block low and pivot away, and in that second Alema pointed at Bwua'tu's spine and let loose a crackling stream of Force lightning. Leia started to grab the admiral in the Force, intending to jerk him out of the way, but his aide Grendyl was already leaping to protect him.
The lightning caught the woman full in the chest, hurling her back into Bwua'tu and knocking him to the deck. Leia leapt at Alema, striking for the shoulders. The Twi'lek spun away... and launched Leia into a wall with a whirling back kick to the ribs.
The blunt clang of skull against durasteel sounded inside Leia's head. Her mind turned to gauze and she thought for a moment that the bloodcurdling howl assaulting her ears was her own. Then she noticed the meter-long segment of amputated lekku flopping around on the deck like a baagalmog out of water.
Leia looked up and found Alema trembling and screaming in pain, the cauterized stump of one nerve-packed head-tail ending just above her shoulder. But the Twi'lek's pain did not prevent her from releasing another stream of Force lightning-this time into the access terminal itself.
The unit exploded into a spray of sparks, pieces, and fumes. The security hatch gave the telltale hiss of a breaking seal, and Bwua'tu cried out in frustration.
Leia sprang to her feet and started toward Alema.
The Twi'lek was already stretching her arm up the corridor, calling her lightsaber back to hand. Leia heard the sizzle of the blade growing louder behind her and dropped into a deep squat as the weapon spun past overhead, then stabbed for Alema's heart.
The Twi'lek brought her blade down and blocked easily, then brought her foot up in a side-snap kick that caught Leia in the base of the throat. The blow was more painful than harmful, but Leia dropped to her seat, coughing and choking and trying to make it sound as though her larynx had been crushed. She could hear the drone of the assassin bugs only a few meters behind her and knew the time had come to end this fight-and she could see by the unreasoning fury in Alema's eyes that the wounded Twi'lek was primed for a mistake.
Leia rolled her eyes back in her head and let herself collapse to the floor. She heard Alema slide forward, then felt a knot of anticipation form in her stomach as the time approached to bring her blade slashing up through the Twi'lek's abdomen-and that was when Leia felt a surge of relief from Saba and the Noghri. A loud grating sounded from the security hatch, and she knew her Master and bodyguards had finally forced it open.
The pulsing whine of Meewalh's T-21 repeating blaster echoed down the corridor, then Alema's blade began to hiss and sizzle as it batted blaster bolts away. Leia opened her eyes to find the Twi'lek dancing along one wall of the corridor, just beyond reach and retreating into the droning cloud of assassin bugs.
When their eyes met, Alema's brow shot up in surprise. She flicked her lightsaber up in a brief salute, then gave Leia a spiteful sneer and fled out of sight.
Source: Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen
In another rematch, Leia defeats Alema Rar again, this time by using a Spidersloth and displaying considerable tactical fighting ability:
Leia charged, firing her blaster pistol with one hand and activating her lightsaber with the other. There was no question of giving Alema a chance to escape later by working with her now-even if it meant letting the Chiss recover the bomb. Eliminating the Dark Nest was the core of Luke's plan, and the Twi'lek was a big part of that nest.
Alema rushed to meet the attack, igniting her own lightsaber, wielding it with her one good arm and easily deflecting the stream of bolts.They met at a large burl where a smaller limb converged with its parent, their lightsabers coming together in a sizzle of sparks and color.
Leia jolted Alema with a one-handed power attack that hammered the Twi'lek's block down easily, then whipped her blade around in a buzzing backslash at a pulsing span of blue undefended throat. Alema dropped to her haunches and somehow snap-kicked from that impossible position, and Leia's middle exploded into pain.
The Princess exhaled hard, forcing the pain out, and did not yield a centimeter. She swept her blade down to attack the extended leg, but Alema had already drawn her foot back, and she ended up blocking the Twi'lek's blade as it came sizzling in at her knees.
Leia rolled her wrist and sent Alema's lightsaber flying, then brought her blaster pistol around and allowed herself a small smirk as she opened fire.
It was too soon to gloat.
Alema was already twisting away and launching herself backward in the air, her handed extended to recall her falling lightsaber. A pair of bolts burned past the Twi'lek's legs-so close that her flight suit began to smoke-but she rolled into an evasive Force tumble and landed unscathed on the adjacent branch ... and slipped. She inhaled sharply and started to fall, then hooked the back of her knee over the branch and caught herself.
Leia fired at the knee, but Alema was already swinging around, facing her, deep blue lightsaber in hand, batting blaster bolts straight back at her. Leia stopped firing. The Twi'lek slipped back into the branch moss in a seated position, then brought her leg up and stretched it along the branch, staring at her boot.
Leia's earlier slash had not missed after all. The front half of Alema's boot was missing-along with half her foot. The Twi'lek turned toward Leia, her unblinking eyes wide in astonishment and anger, and that was when Leia's comlink earpiece crackled to life.
"How's it going down there?" Han asked.
"Busy!" Leia said into her throat mike.
"Any sign of the bombs?" Han pressed.
"Not really."
Leia watched in alarm as Alema rose and peered over the branch behind her-no doubt plotting an escape route.
"Gotta go," Leia said. "I'm sort of in the middle of something."
Determined not to let her prey escape, Leia Force-jumped from her branch toward Alema's.
The Twi'lek's withered arm swung up, reaching toward Leia. The princess tucked into an evasive somersault - then felt herself rolling the wrong way as her feet were Force-jerked in the opposite direction. She called on the Force to stop her rotation, but by then the back of her head was thonking into the side of the branch.
The moss was not as thick on the sides of the branches. The sound echoed inside her skull so hard that Leia thought she would never hear anything else. Then she felt her feet whipping down from above and sensed the darkness rising up to swallow hers and she knew she had come to one of those terrible instants when everything depended on willpower and the stubborn desire to live.
Fortunately, Saba had prepared her well for such moments. Leia found her arms lashing out behind her, one elbow hooking over the branch to stop her fall. Everything remained dark, but she knew she had to keep fighting, to keep her enemy . . . whoever that was-she was having trouble remembering . . . at bay.
Leia felt the blaster pistol in one hand and her lightsaber in the other . . . another of Saba's lessons ringing inside her head, never, never drop your weapon, die with your weapon sssstill in your hand ... and Leia started to fire the blaster, pointing it down the branch where the trouble-who was it again?-seemed to lie. A familiar voice sounded in her ear.
"Hey, that sounds like blasterfire!"
Han.
"Yeah .. . it is." Leia started to recall the situation - a jungle, a Twi'lek, a fight - Alema Rar. "Now be quiet!"
Leia shook her head - big mistake-then whipped her leg up over the branch, still firing. The darkness faded from her eyes, but her blaster bolts were snaking toward their target in slow motion, while the target-a shimmering blue mirage that seemed to have three heads and six arms-was limping toward her behind a lightsaber moving so fast that it seemed to be weaving a shield of solid light.
Then one of the six blue arms moved. Leia's blaster flew from her own hand and vanished into the billowing greenness of the out-of-focus jungle.
The fight was not going exactly as planned.
Saba always said that planning would be Leia's downfall; that she planned too much and felt too little. She had also said that a shenhit always saves its deepest bite for last.
Leia pushed off the mossy branch and brought her feet up beneath her. The Princess had never met a shenhit, but Saba usually uttered the saying in sparring practice, right before she drove her student into the deck with a flurry of power strikes. Leia began to advance on her three-headed, six-armed opponent, weaving her blade through the frenzied slash-slice-and-rip of a Barabel rage attack.
To Leia's astonishment, the three-headed enemy suddenly stopped advancing, then began to retreat.
"Wait! This is silly!" Again, that beguiling voice and that furtive Force-touch, trying to dampen the negative thoughts and bolster the positive ones. Alema pointed her lightsaber over the side of the branch. "The bomb is right down there."
Leia stopped advancing-more to give her eyes a chance to bring her enemy into focus than because she was considering the offer-and glanced down. There did seem to be a big silver blur lying in a bed of green.
"It would be a shame to let the Chiss recover it," Alema said. "Can't we strike a truce long enough to destroy it-then finish killing each other?"
Leia pretended to consider the offer while her vision finished clearing, then-when Alema's extra heads and arms disappeared-she shook her own head.
"Let's do it now."
Leia started forward ... and instantly regretted her decision when the branch bounced and nearly buckled her knees. She noticed it sagging beneath her weight and realized she was farther out on the end than she had perceived in her foggy-headed state. It was a mistake that would cost her dearly. With such unreliable footing, the Princess would be even worse off than her half-footed foe.
Alema was quick to press her advantage, hobbling forward to attack, launching a flurry of strike and Force-push combinations that drove Leia back even farther toward the tip of the bouncing branch. The Princess parried, but her reactions had been slowed by her head blow, and she had to retreat yet another step. She Force-shoved at Alema's knee, but the nimble Twi'lek - who had spent her youth dancing in the ryll dens of Kala'uun - simply lifted her bad foot and pirouetted forward on the good one, driving Leia back another, even longer step.
The branch sagged so precariously that the Princess had to Force-stick herself in place.
"Hey, those sound like lightsabers!" Han observed over Leia's earpiece.
"They are!" Leia growled. "Can you just hold on?" Now the branch was bouncing even when the Princess wasn't moving, and her danger sense was covering her back with goose bumps. Had Alema launched a power attack-even a weak one-Leia's only choice would have been to drop off the branch and hope she could catch another one with the Force on the way down. Instead, the Twi'lek seemed content merely to hold the Princess in place with defensive swordplay.
Then comprehension finally burned its way through the concussion fog inside Leia's head. The danger she was sensing had nothing to do with Alema. A predator had landed behind her . . . something large enough to weigh down a limb the size of her thigh.
Alema smiled. "Dinnertime, Princess."
Leia's blood began to burn with a very Barabel-like rage. She would not die at the hands of some Twi'lek dancing girl - or at the claws of some jungle flunky. She went on the attack, forgetting her slow reactions and foggy head and uneven footing, and let the battle take her - let her lightsaber block and slash and stab of its own accord, let her feet dance back and forth over the bouncing limb.
Alema came at her just as strongly, kicking with her half foot, stretching out for long lightsaber lunges, pushing constantly through the Force-steadily driving Leia back toward the hungry presence that she could now sense coming up behind her.
Then a wisp of hot breath brushed the back of Leia's neck, and she knew it was time. The Princess tried a throat slash and swung wide, deliberately leaving herself open for a heart thrust. Never having been one to resist temptation, Alema could not help lunging for the kill.
Leia had already flexed her knees and was springing off the sagging branch, bringing her feet up over her head in an open Force flip. She saw the Twi'lek stretched out below her, not quite off balance-but not far from it-her neck craned back as she watched her target fly overhead. Leia brought her lightsaber down, striking for the head. Alema could only whip her lightsaber up in a desperate block. The blades clashed in a growling shower of sparks and light, then the Princess was swinging down behind her, twisting around to plant one foot between the Twi'lek's shoulders and send her stumbling toward the shaggy mass that had been creeping up behind Leia.
There was no time to tell what kind of creature the thing was. All Leia saw was something the size of a bantha taking Alema's sword arm in its jaws. The Twi'lek screamed in pain; then four spiky pedipalps emerged from the side of the creature's mouth and began to feed her in.
Alema's legs were still outside, kicking wildly, when Leia felt the thing's attention fall on her and noticed six beady eyes peering out from beneath the mossy scales that covered its head. Before it could spring, the Princess brought her lightsaber down, cutting the branch away at her feet.
Instead of plummeting toward the jungle floor, the creature swung outward, hanging suspended by a thick, ropy tail that ascended more than ten meters to a branch above. It was even larger than Leia had first imagined, with a long slug-like body that had dozens of tiny feet wriggling on the underside. Alema remained in its mouth, kicking her feet and presumably screaming into its throat. Leia locked her lightsaber blade in the on position, then used the Force to send it spinning through the tail.
The predator - whatever it was - did not open its mouth or roar in pain. It simply plummeted groundward, filling the jungle with a terrific banging and cracking as it crashed through the mogo boughs, then finally splashed into the dark river below.
Leia called her lightsaber back to her hand, and had barely switched it off before Han's voice came over her earpiece again.
Source: Dark Nest III: The Swarm War
Alema Rar is a decent duelist whom is about on par with Aayla as a combatant. Aayla did beat Aurra Sing, who did beat A'Sharad Hett, but Hett is fairly unimpressive anyway. Years later, Hett had an environmental advantage against an older and out of practice Kenobi, yet still lost convincingly. I'd say Aayla beating Aurra Sing is good, but not too impressive. Alema Rar has fought multiple Vong warriors, which is good because Vong warriors are relatively successful against Jedi - for instance, their capacity to hold their own against Mara, Jacen, Kyp, Corran, Kyle etc. makes them skilful warriors, probably at least as good as Aurra Sing. Alema did also fare well enough against Mara Jade and Noghri, as well as having beaten Tresina Lobi with Lumiya's help. So I think we can agree on Alema rivaling Aayla - and where Quinlan has only fought evenly with Aayla, Leia has won in a difficult fight against Alema, possibly before she reached her prime. She should be at least as capable a combatant as Vos, if not marginally superior.
Leia does fight Alema again, in LotF, and I can provide you the quote if you really wish, but the fight is so short and inconclusive that there is really nothing to be said about it, and Alema was just fighting defensively the whole time (she seemed disinterested as a whole), so there's really nothing to be said about that.
Now, she did also fight roughly evenly with Tahiri Veila (and seemingly held the edge) in LotF as well, and I can give you the quote, but it isn't too impressive since Veila has hardly any feats (aside from displaying Trakata against Ben Skywalker, but I don't recall her doing so against Leia anyway). She has one more feat that I can remember, where she beat Querdan Dei fairly quickly by exploiting a mistake he made:
"Care to surrender?"
"No."
"Good." She came at him.
Dei took her first attack, blocking with both skill and sheer strength, a defense meant to look contemptuous, meant to intimidate.
Leia was not intimidated. She retreated a step before he could shove her away, disengaged, kicked. His blade swept through the air where her leg should have ended up, but she hadn't followed through. Sand propelled by her foot spattered against his face - the right side of his face. He grinned. Hers had been a viable tactic, countered by damage he'd already sustained.
Then it was on, a full-speed duel to the death.
Relaxing into the Force, into instinct and muscle memory and training, Dei decided that the moment was one of perfect complementarity. His hot anger against her cool restraint. Male and female. Sith and Jedi. Glowing red against glowing blue. Strength against suppleness. He felt a thrill of delight at the beauty of it.
Complementarity - their blades locked, sizzling, then they spun away from each other, and Dei realized he'd made a mistake. Spinning toward his off-hand as he'd done thousands of times, he lost sight of his opponent a fraction of a second early, betrayed by his missing eye. He felt Leia surge in the Force. He whirled his blade in a defensive, protective pattern, but it encountered nothing.
They came to a stop facing each other. Dei felt a curious sense of detachment.
Then he found himself staring at the sky. He didn't know how, but suddenly he was looking up at the stars. Then at the camp beyond the overlook, and it was upside down. Then at the backs of his own legs and feet. His head hit the sand a moment before his body collapsed. His head rolled a few meters, then came to a stop. The last thing he saw was the nexu, puffed up, blood-spattered, sitting staring at him.
And darkness washed that image away forever.
Source: Fate of the Jedi: Conviction
Dei has no feats to name, but he is considered one of the more skilful amongst the Sith, and if I recall correctly, he was often assigned to difficult missions. He should be about as good as one of the Morgukai.
Now, before I conclude the skill section, I did make note of an edge I believe Leia to have, which is her blaster. She uses her blaster in conjunction with her lightsaber, martial attacks, and Force attacks. This could prove difficult for Vos, because Ataru is poor against blasters. If he switches to Shien, then he is less adept at that form, which is an edge for Leia, and Shien is also suited for multiple opponents rather than one, to memory. I will also include details on Leia's tactical ability displayed mid-duel, once the need arises.
While Vos was a Dark Jedi he demonstrated proficiency in Force Grip/Choke, being able to telekinetically dominate both Aayla Secura and K'Kruhk.
Admittedly I can't think of either of their telekinetic feats which would make this more impressive, but I will look into it.
Aayla has no showings of TK or power in general worth mentioning, as far as I can remember. K'Kruhk is also not very powerful to memory - his survival skills and healing are notable, but I don't recall him being particularly powerful. Also, in the case of Aayla, Quinlan first barraged her with rocks, which repeatedly thwacked her body and may have served to make her more vulnerable to Quinlan's successive Force Grip and Throw.
In general, though, Vos is really not going to be this violent in his telekinetic applications here.
Telekinesis
Vos is a pretty powerful telekinetic who frequently ravages his environment when releasing telekinetic assaults.
As you can see above he causes a large amount of damage to a portion of a building with a Force Push in the first two scans. In the third, while he telekinetically grips Aayla he also levitates dozens of rocks varying in size as residue of his assault. In the last two he telekinetically launches multiple Anzati (Force Sensitive vampire-like beings) while causing some environmental damage.
Force pushes an ARC trooper hard enough to knock him unconscious, break an arm and give him a concussion:
Telekinetically pushing a speeder:
(worth noting that this was during Order 66, where Vos had been trying to recover after being shot directly by a tank. Evidently he wasn't at 100% here).
Holding up a large rock/boulder for a prolonged period of time for Aayla to jump on, even after sustaining terrible wounds from thrown shuriken:
Good showings. Leia should at least be a match for Vos in power, though.
Decades before her proper training as a Jedi, Leia is able to alter her directional course when she is thrown by Streen's winds, causing her to slide to the floor instead of being smashed into a stone wall:
The cyclone struck Luke, buffeted his body, and lifted it into the air. Leia ran toward her paralyzed brother, feet barely touching the ground as powerful winds knocked her sideways. The storm wrenched her off balance, and she found herself thrown through the air, flying like an insect toward the stone walls. She spun around and reached out, calming herself enough to use her own abilities with the Force, to nudge her body away. Instead of being crushed against the stone blocks, she slid softly to the floor.
Source: Champions of the Force (Credit to Whirlwind33)
Note that Streen's Force Winds are extremely powerful - they have destroyed AT-St's and carried their remnants for kilometers, to memory.
Leia directly attacks Alema Rar with a Force shove that knocks her down, causing Alema to only barely get her guard up in time:
Leia pressed the attack, leaping between the body halves as they dropped away, hitting Alema with a Force shove and bringing her own blade around in an overhand power strike.
Alema barely got her guard up in time, and sparks filled the air as the two blades met.
Source: Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen
Leia uses the Force to create a loud creak, possibly by using telekinesis to hit something, and then grabs a clawcraft (which is 7.65 meters in length) and swings it back and forth via telekinesis:
Leia signaled the others to be ready, then used the Force to create a loud creak in the storage gantries directly above the security platoon. The troops immediately looked up, already suspicious enough to raise their charric rifles.
Leia Force-grabbed a clawcraft hanging over their heads and began to swing it back and forth. The troops immediately began to back away from the Falcon-until their female officer started barking commands at them. In the next moment the officer was sliding across the deck with her arms flailing, still screeching orders in a panicked voice and gesturing at the gantries.
Source: Dark Nest III: The Swarm War
Leia violently twists the clawcraft, and it comes free of its mounting, crashing down:
Leia gave the swinging clawcraft a violent twist, and it came free of its mountings. The security platoon shouted the alarm and dived for cover, many of them zinging blind reaction shots into the gantries as they moved. An instant later the starfighter crashed down in their midst, scattering cannon arms and pieces of armor plating in every direction.
Source: Dark Nest III: The Swarm War
Leia and Saba Sebatyne tear half a dozen rifles out of their enemies' hands:
Leia and Saba Force-jerked half a dozen charric rifles out of troopers' hands and sent the weapons skittering across the floor. Han and Tarfang began to lay suppression fire, but that did not prevent the security platoon from launching a counterattack.
Source: Dark Nest III: The Swarm War
Leia holds the severely damaged Millennium Falcon together with telekinesis (albeit with strain), preventing it from being ripped apart, and with the help of Jacen and Jaina, manages to land the ship:
He visualized the Millennium Falcon. In his mind, he could see the plates of her underside and the transparisteel of the cockpit mounted on the starboard flank. He saw her as she should have been, whole and sound. He could feel Leia straining to use Force telekinesis, but he couldn’t sense exactly where she was trying to apply it. He could only hear the tension in her voice and taste her growing anxiety. And he could feel another presence, too: his sister, Jaina.They hardly spoke these days, but twins could never cut themselves off from each other for long. She must have sensed their parents’ crisis, too. Whatever his mother was trying to do, Jacen could only guess. And guessing wasn’t good enough when one was using the physical might of the Force. Still in his Theran sound trance, he heard the bip-bip-bip of a sensor alarm, the kind that announced that a hull had been breached-or worse." . . . drive’s shaking loose and it’s going to take the plates with it . . ."That was what he needed to know. He was certain now that his mother was using the Force to stop the cracks in the drive housing from spreading and ripping the Falcon apart as the ship reentered the atmosphere. It was a massive task. She needed help. Jacen filled his lungs with a long, slow breath and centered himself to try something he had never attempted before.Mom, I hope you can handle this.He pictured Leia sitting in the copilot’s seat. Her emotions and her presence in the Force washed over him and he visualized himself in her place, behind her eyes, seeing what she saw. For a moment he was simply observing; but then a feeling like a sigh drained out of him and it was as if he were exhaling an infinite breath into his mother - no, through his mother. Now he was no longer sitting in the alcove between two topiary bushes, but staring at an array of lights and readouts and at hands that weren’t his. Beyond the console, Coruscant loomed in the viewport.
If Jaina had joined the effort, she was hardly detectable. He had drowned out her presence in his own mind with the sheer strength of the telekinesis he was projecting.
Take this, Mom. Use me. Use the Force I’m channeling through you.
He heard her say "Uh!" as if something had startled her. Then he could feel pressure in his lungs as if he were running hard and fighting for breath. He had no idea how long it lasted. But he had the sense of clutching something tight to his chest, and an awareness somewhere outside his mind and yet at its core showed him the Falcon enveloped in the Force, the hull around her drive assembly compressed instead of expanding catastrophically.
He was sure he wasn’t seeing what his mother was actually looking at, because he had none of the images of entering the atmosphere or landing. The scenes inside the Falcon’s cockpit were being supplied by his memory. He was simultaneously aware both of that rational fact and that his Force power was being funneled through his mother, helping her hold the drive assembly in place by telekinesis.
Then relief swept over him like a wave, making his scalp tingle and his heart pound. The Falcon was down safely. He knew it. Now he could open his eyes. When he did, he was almost surprised to find himself still in the grounds of the Temple in broad daylight.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines
Leia hurls a lieutenant into his own squad, knocking half of them off their feet and causing the other half to stumble for balance:
The lieutenant's face reddened. "Colonel Solo is a great Patriot, perhaps even the savior of the... arrrgggh!"
His voice broke into a scream of alarm as Leia Force-hurled him into the troopers behind him, knocking half the squad off its feet and sending the rest stumbling for balance. She snatched her lightsaber off her belt and started down the corridor in the opposite direction.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Inferno
She rips a blaster from Tarfang's hand and throws it over a porch, then pulls Tarfang toward her before spinning him upside down and hanging him in the air:
Leia's hand flashed up, and the blaster flew from Tarfang's hand and vanished over the side of the porch. She extended her arm, and in the next instant the little Ewok was flying into her grasp, screeching in rage and clawing at the air with all fours.
"Enough!" Leia yelled. She flicked her wrist, spinning Tarfang upside down and leaving him to hang in the air before her.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Inferno
For Force combat that is about all there is to show which is combatively applicable. Vos does have strong showings of Force Concealment but I'm undecided on how much of an indicator of power they would be. In any case I think I've done Vos justice so far.
Hmm... I strongly doubt Vos's Concealment would be an issue here. Leia's Force Sense feats are very strong:
Leia is able to sense Luke's presence nearby, that his mind is imprisoned, and is then able to recognize that he had lost to Palpatine, partially falling to the dark side:
Leia senses everything in a forest, from tiny bloodbats to packs of Ewok-sized spiders, and senses that all of them are waiting for a chance to attack:
The strength of the living Force in the jungle overwhelmed Leia's physical senses. Her ears hummed with its energy, her skin prickled beneath its warm pressure, even her vision had begun to cast the rain in a soft green glow. She found herself perceiving with her spirit rather than with her body, becoming a part of the jungle rather than a visitor to it.
Saba was reacting a little differently. She was creeping along the vine-swaddled mogo branches with all the stealth of a hungry rapard, barely stirring the thick foliage except when she suddenly fell on some hissing rodent or popped out of hiding to snatch a passing buzzbird.
Leia might have been bothered by the trail of death that her Master's predatory instinct was laying behind them had she not felt like half the jungle was trying to eat her. Through the Force, she could sense everything from tiny bloodbats to packs of Ewok-sized spiders-all of them on the hunt, stalking her through the canopy, watching and waiting for an opportunity to attack.
Source: Dark Nest III: The Swarm War
Leia senses Alema Rar's presence despite the latter concealing herself with the Force:
She could hear a large river purling through the jungle somewhere far below, but she had no sense of where this new predator was hiding. She turned in a slow circle. When she saw nothing but clouds of emerald foliage, she reached out in the Force, but she felt only the same hunters as before. This danger was something different-something that could hide itself in the Force.
Leia stilled herself and began to search for an empty place in the gauzy fog of the living Force on Tenupe. It did not take long to find. There was an odd calm where her branch connected to the mogo's trunk, hidden behind a green curtain of strangle-vines. Still holding herlightsaber in one hand, she drew her blaster and began to fire into the vines. The snap-hiss of an igniting lightsaber sounded from inside the mass of vines, then a blade so blue it was almost black sliced through the foliage and began to bat Leia's bolts aide. The tangle of vines quickly fell away, revealing a blue-skinned Twi'lek female with an amputated head-tail and one withered arm hanging useless beneath a sagging shoulder. She wore a StealthX flight suit two sizes too small for her slender figure, her front zipper open down to the navel.
Leia stopped firing and touched Saba through their battle-meld, trying to let her knew she had found something as important as the bombs. "Alema Rar. I should have known you'd crawl out of a hole around here somewhere."
Source: Dark Nest III: The Swarm War
Alema should be just as good as Vos in stealth-based powers, or at least approachable. She has shut down her presence in the Force before.
Leia has other abilities, such as Ionize, Force Bellow, Immovability, Force-flash, Sound Mimicry etc, but none of these will turn up or be an issue in the fight, except perhaps for Immovability, but we can discuss that when the time comes.
As a whole, between noticeably superior Force Speed (how much this will affect the fight is up for determination), marginally greater skill, and at least rivaling, if not superior Force power, I do think Leia should be able to win 6-7/10, but she would have difficulty every time.
Agreed. Of course you would use Traya as an example - my example in the other thread. :(
I'd say Force speed should not be of consequence in this scenario, to be honest. It's the least of the combatants' concerns.
I actually agree. And I did agree with some of your points regarding Vos' speed feats, such as the afterglow point (I wouldn't mind giving that blog a read actually). The funny thing is, there are times where Vos has made afterimages.. but I was under the impression that the bigger, the better, so I only screenshotted massive afterglows. LOL. To be fair I think there is only so much a comic can really show about things like speed, barring the obvious stuff like blast deflection. So yeah, speed shouldn't matter too much.
It mostly consists of her blocking her strikes which never appeared to be very skilful or refined at all. It seems more like the blows would be painfully obvious, and Aayla is basically featless at this time.
I think you meant *him.
I wouldn't say they were applied without skill. They were just akin to what an angry Ataru user would do (which I believe is what Aayla is although I'm not sure of her form). But really the only important part I was highlighting was that she was fully bloodlusted but Vos had a clear enough head to meet her blows then talk her down, which takes some level of skill and refinement itself.
This is a somewhat good showing, but it's hard to properly quantify the Morgukai's skills. They did beat Tholme, but then, Tholme never impressed me as a combatant, and he really was quite mediocre. Quinlan beating one before being saved by Aayla whilst injured is a good feat, though.
Well we know Dooku used the Son's genes in order to create a shadow army of Morgukai clone assassins, all trained by the Anzati - which is impressive in that Dooku found him impressive enough in overall physical ability to base a clone army on him. The Father had a brief fight with Tholme which was broken up by the Son prematurely, but at least showed that the Father had the skill to combat a Jedi like Tholme even briefly. And the Son fighting for a prolonged time against Secura is impressive. So I'd say Vos fighting two of them simultaneously, while he's wounded severely, managing to decapitate one, is a very impressive feat, although perhaps not his best.
This is a circumstantial showing. He was being helped by Aayla at the end, whereas Sora was winning before (mostly via telekinesis, but regardless). For all intents and purposes, before that, I don't think I ever saw Sora actually attacking him with a blade, either, and he was just taunting Quinlan with Dun Moch along with Dooku's hologram. As far as I am concerned, they were trying to goad Quinlan Vos, not outright kill him (at least not until the end). Vos then killing Bulq with Aayla's help is entirely circumstantial.
Quinlan was faring no better than Tholme did anyway. Sora Bulq's mastery of all the lightsaber forms, his capacity to contend with Windu in sheer skill, and his accolade as one of the single best lightsaber duelists in the Order's history should afford him a clear edge over Quinlan Vos.
Regarding his emotions, I'm not entirely sure that really hindered him. His emotions and anger did allow him to beat Tol Skorr.
While there is circumstance to be explained, it does not actually make the feat any less impressive than I've described it.
1. He wasn't being helped by Aayla in the physical sense, she just talked sense to him telepathically - which could be more distracting than anything else. But even if you did consider it to be some type of physical, momentary amplification of Vos' abilities (which I don't), then it is only fair to note that Vos had both Bulq and Dooku utilising Dun Moch on him simultaneously, which is very distracting to say the least.
2. Sora landed two Force pushes, yes (which is what afforded him the advantage in the fight). However there were quite a few physical blows in the fight (more than your giving credit for Quinlan trading) and a portion of the fight went on for a long time off-panel while Dooku talked. And even while we don't know what happened during that time, it does show that Vos was at least contending with Bulq during that period (since there was no obvious shift in advantage from character dialogue), and when it came back on panel Vos' lightsaber was still sizzling against Bulq's.
3. I believe they were trying to kill him from the offset. Dooku had no real use for Vos at this point. Him and Bulq were using Dun Moch on him, goading him to use the Dark Side, but were still trying to kill him. As Bulq says:
Come on Vos! Admit the truth before you die! Embrace the Dark Side!
And then there is:
Quin move! He is going to kill you!
We can only speculate as to why they were goading Vos, but it remains evident that Bulq was in no way holding back, and for at least 80% was trying to kill Vos. You know, the same way you've argued that Dooku was not holding back against Anakin just because he wasn't ordered to kill him?
4. Mastering x amount of lightsaber forms is good, but knowledge will only get you so far. Your ability to apply it to combat is more important. While I wouldn't place Vos in Windu's skill tier (perhap a tier or two below him), I'm also of the mind that Windu would not destroy him in a duel in his prime. Vos way out of his prime, managed to hold his own against Mace Windu while Windu was holding back.
Gallery
In addition to Vos holding his own during a sparring match.
Gallery
And then fighting evenly with Sora Bulq, eventually defeating him while going through the motions of a deep internal struggle between the light and dark, is enough for me to suggest that Vos is of a higher class of dueling skill than he gets credit for.
5. His emotions certainly were hindering him. He was fighting himself (as in, his own Dark essence) mentally while fighting Bulq, with his Darkness even electrocuting him at one point. In any case he did not have a very clear mind to say the least. His emotions and anger didn't allow him to defeat Tol Skorr - him being vastly better than Tol Skorr allowed him to (due to the fact Skorr is a relatively mediocre combatant who only ever did well against an exhausted Vos).
It's Tol Skorr, not Tor Skoll, and Skorr was hardly an impressive combatant anyways. Quinlan beating him with Dark Rage is good but not entirely applicable here.
It was just a supplementary showing of martial ability - and it's completely applicable here, unless Leia is immune to being punched?
Eh.... not sure if that source is canon, but even if it is, all it says is that Vos should be a challenge for the most adept duelists, not that he would be a challenge to them. We can already say this isn't the case given how Agen Kolar stomped Quinlan Vos with laughable ease:
Gallery
By virtue of canonical showings, not ambiguously canon and wishy-washy wording of an accolade, we can identify that Quinlan is in fact multiple tiers behind the most skilful duelists in the Order and would lose handily to them.
It is canon. All Star Wars games have joined Legends Canon. Would, should - basically the same thing. And evidently he is, judging by his fights with Windu and Bulq.
I honestly see that fight as a low showing on Vos' part more than anything else. Three other fights (with Bulq and Windu) as well as that accolade above contradict Vos being stomped so horrendously by Kolar. However, if I was to go about justifying it, I would say that Vos was not yet in his prime at this point (like years later when he would fight Bulq), may have been suffering from duress, stress and emotional hinderance (to a point) from working as a double agent for so long, and skirting the line between light and dark so frequently. But the fact of the matter is four sources are contradicting one. If Vos really was the tier of duelist that can be disarmed in a moments notice by someone like Agen Kolar, then Windu and Bulq also would have done so, no?
(Also worth noting that Vos hadn't been disarmed while dueling Dooku, and was seen sparring with him briefly with no noticeable advantage either way).
The description of Vos' lightsaber form and that he should be a challenge for even the most adept duelist (which in this context is tantamount to "would"), is completely canon, and just because you want to consider it "wishy-washy" does not make it so. Vos is nowhere near multiple tiers behind Windu and would not lose handily to him. Not in his prime anyway.
Vos mastering Shien is not confirmed - and this cannot be inferred simply because of a stance or his proficiency in blast deflection, which is one of the primary strengths of Shii-Cho as well, and the basic tenants of Shii-Cho are taught to every Jedi initiate. Vos is skilled in Shien, I suppose, but saying he mastered it would be going too far, especially since it is utterly devoid of conclusive evidence.
As for Vaapad - Quinlan learnt very little in Vaapad and Mace Windu instructed him to not use it again, which Quinlan agreed to do. I highly doubt Vaapad would turn up in this fight. Quinlan displaying one maneuver of Vaapad is hardly going to be of consequence anyway.
LOL at crediting me. Well, to be honest, Quinlan learning one or two maneuvers of Vaapad are not conclusive of actually achieving or controlling it properly. He never trained in the actual technique.
I strongly disagree with Vaapad. As I said before, Mace told Quinlan to not utilize Vaapad again and Quinlan agreed.
Agreed and agreed, although I honestly don't think it's implausible that Vos could have mastered two forms (both which he uses very regularly). But alas, there is no source for how proficient he is in Shien. Still, what Forms you have mastered only matters so much. Combat feats tend to be more important.
It's a decent showing, but this was only a spar where Windu appeared to be having an edge, and Quinlan Vos had to utilize a Vaapad technique (which surprised Windu) in order to delay the fight. We've already seen Quinlan Vos losing and even getting stomped by duelists of inferior quality to Windu, so to suggest Quinlan could properly contend with Windu in a realistic fighting situation is stretching, in my opinion.
Windu had the edge, yes, but Vos was years out of practice, which you neglected to address. Vos also was not in his prime here. Also, by Windu's own admission Vos was "holding back" in some manner, until he utilized Vaapad which worried Windu, for Vos' susceptibility to the Dark Side. Vos did not "have" to utilise a Vaapad technique and was not resorting to it in any manner, he was just using his knowledge to his advantage. Windu was pressing him and gaining the advantage so he used a more aggressive technique. Shows intelligence more than anything in my book. If Vos was in his prime, in practice and had free reign to utilise whatever techniques he wanted to, he could definitely pose a challenge to Windu. He has not been stomped by "duelist(s)" of inferior quality to Windu - he was stomped by one, which is contradicted by multiple other sources, and was also before Vos reached his prime.
I wouldn't say I'm stretching at all in all honesty. I'm going by actual showings and consistency.
Now, for some of Leia's showings, and how they compare to Quinlan Vos. Before I post any feats, I do want to preface that you neglected the most realistic showings Quinlan Vos had as a duelist - which were fighting evenly with Aayla Secura and Tholme (I suppose it may be admissible that Quinlan is above Tholme, but only marginally), and these are fights which do not contain circumstances or anything of the sort. These feats are easier to compare to Leia's.
There was nothing unrealistic about the showings I've posted thus far, and the reason I didn't post/expound on his fights against Tholme and Aayla (and others) is because I wanted to start with his better ones. But for the sake of it, here is Vos fighting Tholme:
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As you can see, the fight is relatively short and both combatants' overall effectiveness is being hindered by the chaotic environment. However, Quinlan was the clear aggressor and appeared to have the upper hand. On the whole it was pretty inconclusive due to Vos' usage of Cortosis to get a quick win. Again, not Vos' best feat, but it's nice.
In 13 ABY (again, Leia has some minimal training, but she does not become a Jedi until 35-36 ABY), Leia kills Beldorion in combat (Beldorion is also amped because the fight takes place on Nam Chorios):
There is a fairly notable instance of Leia displaying sufficient precognition to predict exactly where Beldorion would strike, and then launching a preemptive attack. It is similar to the basic precognition used passively by Jedi and Sith, but this is to a greater extent. Anyways, Beldorion is mostly featless, so it lies in the fact that he is amped and that Leia is relatively inexperienced/long before her prime by this period which makes the feat impressive.
Fair enough as a supplementary showing.
She has also beaten Alema Rar in 36 ABY after only a year (likely less) of training and still a Jedi apprentice, by virtue of amputating one of her lekkus:
She didn't defeat her. They dueled pretty evenly for a long time, then Leia accidentally cut off one of her Lekku's when going for her shoulder (as she proceeded to fly into a durasteel wall head first). That's more a result of an inherent weakspot on Twi'lek's than anything else. After the amputation they fought briefly, with Leia being struck in the throat and deciding to play dead until she escaped. It's an alright showing all around.
In another rematch, Leia defeats Alema Rar again, this time by using a Spidersloth and displaying considerable tactical fighting ability:
She defeats her here (through an external factor rather than by virtue of lightsaber skill), but it's worth noting that Alema apparently only had one good arm? Surely this cannot be too impressive as a feat if Leia was fighting someone with one good arm.
Alema Rar is a decent duelist whom is about on par with Aayla as a combatant. Aayla did beat Aurra Sing, who did beat A'Sharad Hett, but Hett is fairly unimpressive anyway. Years later, Hett had an environmental advantage against an older and out of practice Kenobi, yet still lost convincingly. I'd say Aayla beating Aurra Sing is good, but not too impressive. Alema Rar has fought multiple Vong warriors, which is good because Vong warriors are relatively successful against Jedi - for instance, their capacity to hold their own against Mara, Jacen, Kyp, Corran, Kyle etc. makes them skilful warriors, probably at least as good as Aurra Sing. Alema did also fare well enough against Mara Jade and Noghri, as well as having beaten Tresina Lobi with Lumiya's help. So I think we can agree on Alema rivaling Aayla - and where Quinlan has only fought evenly with Aayla, Leia has won in a difficult fight against Alema, possibly before she reached her prime. She should be at least as capable a combatant as Vos, if not marginally superior.
Wait, so what did the Vong warriors do that makes them impressive? The ones Alema killed specifically? I often hear about how impressive it is to do well against Vong warriors but I haven't ever seen an example or any real kind of source for why they're so impressive. All I hear is "Vong warriors have given X, Y and Z problems before so W defeating them is a good feat". I can't really take that without a pinch of salt until I actually see what is impressive about the Vong warriors.
Aayla defeating Aurra Sing is very impressive actually. IIRC Aurra Sing was able to briefly engage Kenobi and Jinn at one point before making a retreat? She also has a fairly large kill resume and was a notorious bounty hunter. But aside from that, Vos and Aayla have not ever had a conclusive fight where a victor was determined by dueling skill, so I think it's hard for you to make the case that her and Vos are close to even. Aayla engaging in a very prolonged duel with the Son Morgukai is a lot less impressive than Vos engaging in a duel with the Son and Father whilst severely injured, and overall has better feats than Aayla, and should be comfortable above her as a duelist.
Not to mention Vos' fights with Aayla are hardly his best dueling feats. His showings against Windu, Bulq and the Morgukai Warriors whilst injured are all more conclusive and impressive. There is also Vos' showing against Volfe Karko a Force User who was so powerful thousands of years ago (before he escaped from Stasis), that it required the Jedi's entire High Council to defeat him. He also evidently had the advantage in Force power, but Quinlan pulled through in the end:
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Overall I would say Vos' dueling track record is superior to Leia's by a noticeable margin.
On the dueling front, I think it's also worth noting that Vos is more martially capable than Leia. In your quotes a couple of times Leia comes to close, or actually does, break sections of her hand/wrist when either blocking powerful strikes or hitting something hard like armor. She has also suffered from receiving physical strikes pretty badly.
The Twi'lek brought her knee up under Leia's chin, snapping her head back with such force that her vision went black for a moment.
Leia's face had become so swollen that she could barely see out of one eye, and Alema kept circling to find a blind spot.
She called on the Force to stop her rotation, but by then the back of her head was thonking into the side of the branch.
The moss was not as thick on the sides of the branches. The sound echoed inside her skull so hard that Leia thought she would never hear anything else. Then she felt her feet whipping down from above and sensed the darkness rising up to swallow hers and she knew she had come to one of those terrible instants when everything depended on willpower and the stubborn desire to live.
Fortunately, Saba had prepared her well for such moments. Leia found her arms lashing out behind her, one elbow hooking over the branch to stop her fall. Everything remained dark, but she knew she had to keep fighting, to keep her enemy . . . whoever that was-she was having trouble remembering . . . at bay.
Comparatively, Vos has no-sold physical strikes from Mace Windu and Morgukai warriors, tanked being thrown into a stone wall by Karkko ect. He has also survived large falls, protected himself and Aayla from dying from a ship crash, supported a boulder with telekinesis while being stabbed by shuriken, going on to fight two Morgukai with these injuries after zero recovery time, and even survived being shot directly by a tank, then going on to fight multiple clones without succumbing to his injuries. He hasn't ever been dazed or physically injured by the same types of impacts Leia has, and appears to be the physically stronger combatant. Not that this is a massive advantage, but being able to take the punch better, and land harder punches is important - especially when both combatants are so prone to going to their martial ability in fights.
Dei has no feats to name, but he is considered one of the more skilful amongst the Sith, and if I recall correctly, he was often assigned to difficult missions. He should be about as good as one of the Morgukai.
Fair enough - although this doesn't surpass the Morgukai feat.
Now, before I conclude the skill section, I did make note of an edge I believe Leia to have, which is her blaster. She uses her blaster in conjunction with her lightsaber, martial attacks, and Force attacks. This could prove difficult for Vos, because Ataru is poor against blasters. If he switches to Shien, then he is less adept at that form, which is an edge for Leia, and Shien is also suited for multiple opponents rather than one, to memory. I will also include details on Leia's tactical ability displayed mid-duel, once the need arises.
Okay I'm sorry but this argument just doesn't work. Vos doesn't need to switch between one form and then the next, and he isn't any better with one form than another. Vos has his own fighting style which encompasses both Ataru and Shien. He can use a Shien technique to redirect blaster fire back at Leia and can then resume using Ataru in melee (where Leia will be hard pressed to use her blaster, since she'll need to focus on an incredibly aggressive and martially superior opponent rushing her). He also used Shien in his fight with Bulq - his best feat - so I don't see why he'd be at a disadvantage using it against Leia. Shien hasn't been noted as being more suited to multiple opponents to my knowledge, but even if that is the case, you could not make the argument that Vos could not duel a single opponent using Shien just because of it's on-paper application - he's used Shien against single opponents plenty of times, and tends to switch between it and Ataru frequently. Unless we're now saying is at a disadvantage against lone opponents because he uses Shii-Cho?
So no, Vos won't need to use Ataru to deflect blaster fire, and he won't need to exclusively use Shien in melee combat, and Leia will not have any kind of advantage over Vos in terms of form. What Form has Leia mastered by the way?
I admit that having a blaster might help Leia somewhat, but it's not going to provide her any wins. Vos is still more skilled and martially superior, is perfectly capable of dodging and deflecting blaster fire, and is such an aggressive fighter that Leia may not even get the chance to really make use of her blaster.
Aayla has no showings of TK or power in general worth mentioning, as far as I can remember. K'Kruhk is also not very powerful to memory - his survival skills and healing are notable, but I don't recall him being particularly powerful. Also, in the case of Aayla, Quinlan first barraged her with rocks, which repeatedly thwacked her body and may have served to make her more vulnerable to Quinlan's successive Force Grip and Throw.
In general, though, Vos is really not going to be this violent in his telekinetic applications here.
Fair points. It's still impressive to a degree that he broke their Force Shields, though.
Good showings. Leia should at least be a match for Vos in power, though.
Decades before her proper training as a Jedi, Leia is able to alter her directional course when she is thrown by Streen's winds, causing her to slide to the floor instead of being smashed into a stone wall:
Note that Streen's Force Winds are extremely powerful - they have destroyed AT-St's and carried their remnants for kilometers, to memory.
Not too sure how to gauge this as a power feat, but it's alright. Being able to slow her descent from powerful winds is good, but in this context I can't see exactly how powerful the winds are. Unless Leia is strong enough to resist winds that can destroy AT-ST's then I wouldn't say this surpasses Vos' power showings.
Leia directly attacks Alema Rar with a Force shove that knocks her down, causing Alema to only barely get her guard up in time:
This is alright but I would say what Vos did to K'Kruhk and Secura was better.
Leia uses the Force to create a loud creak, possibly by using telekinesis to hit something, and then grabs a clawcraft (which is 7.65 meters in length) and swings it back and forth via telekinesis:
Leia violently twists the clawcraft, and it comes free of its mounting, crashing down:
Now this is more impressive, and is enough to suggest Leia is approaching Vos in power. Despite the fact all she did was swing the clawcraft around while it was hanging, and then ripped out it's foundations, it's impressive because of the size of it.
Leia and Saba Sebatyne tear half a dozen rifles out of their enemies' hands:
This isn't too overwhelming.
Leia holds the severely damaged Millennium Falcon together with telekinesis (albeit with strain), preventing it from being ripped apart, and with the help of Jacen and Jaina, manages to land the ship:
Well, she had help with holding it together too from both Jacen and Jaina, and the task was too large for her on her own. So I don't really know how to gauge this feat.
Leia hurls a lieutenant into his own squad, knocking half of them off their feet and causing the other half to stumble for balance:
Not too overwhelming.
She rips a blaster from Tarfang's hand and throws it over a porch, then pulls Tarfang toward her before spinning him upside down and hanging him in the air:
Not too overwhelming, Ewok's aren't very heavy.
I'd be willing to put them as rivals in Force power, but Leia certainly doesn't exceed Vos.
Hmm... I strongly doubt Vos's Concealment would be an issue here. Leia's Force Sense feats are very strong:
No, I didn't mean that Vos could use his Force concealment. I meant that it could be an indicator of overall power. The same way one could infer Sidious or Vitiate's power through their telepathic feats, or Traya's speed through her power feats. Although it's worth noting that Vos was able to disappear from Windu's sight mid-duel through a Force leap, and has gone undetected by every witch on Dathomir including the Shaman pretty casually. They couldn't even find his Force signature never mind realize he was a Jedi. Vos could potentially use the same tactic in this setting by leaping to a higher area and then taking a stealthy approach. With the sense feats you posted, none really involved much resistance on the other party's part barring Alema, who isn't as stealthy as Vos, who has also hidden is Force signature, just from more impressive people.
Gallery
On another note, Vos has manipulated torpedos with electronic manipulation (I believe) while inside a ship before, which is pretty impressive in terms of precision and somewhat power. As well as range.
Gallery
As a whole, between noticeably superior Force Speed (how much this will affect the fight is up for determination), marginally greater skill, and at least rivaling, if not superior Force power, I do think Leia should be able to win 6-7/10, but she would have difficulty every time.
I wouldn't say there is any huge gap in combat or reaction speed. Leia hasn't deflected or dodged near the same amount of blaster fire Vos has. Vos also had no issue keeping up with the speed of someone like Windu or Bulq. As I said - there is only so much a comic can show, opposed to a novel anyway. Although for combat speed we do have Vos pulling out his lightsaber before Villie realizes, and also states that due to his precognition he would know when Villie thinks about firing, allowing Vos to ignite his saber:
In a novel this type of feat would probably be described like "before Villie could react" or "before Villie realized" or "faster than Villie could see". But alas, we can only take what is on panel.
Vos is the better duelist because he has contended with, and in Bulq's case, defeated better opponents than Leia. He is also more martially capable, being able to take more damage while also dealing out his own frequently. Leia is not exceeding Vos in power, and is at the very best even to him, but even if she was superior to him, which she isn't, Vos has shown in his fights with Bulq and Karkko that he can overcome an opponent who is stronger in the Force than him through physical means. Leia's only edges are her pistol and travel speed, which are only so useful and could not provide an extra win out of ten.
Just a side note which I forgot to mention, actually. Another edge for Vos is his advantages in agility. Unless Leia has shown the ability to compensate for an opponent as agile as Vos combatively, then it should be yet another edge for him in this fight.
I actually agree. And I did agree with some of your points regarding Vos' speed feats, such as the afterglow point (I wouldn't mind giving that blog a read actually). The funny thing is, there are times where Vos has made afterimages.. but I was under the impression that the bigger, the better, so I only screenshotted massive afterglows. LOL. To be fair I think there is only so much a comic can really show about things like speed, barring the obvious stuff like blast deflection. So yeah, speed shouldn't matter too much.
Fair enough.
I think you meant *him.
I wouldn't say they were applied without skill. They were just akin to what an angry Ataru user would do (which I believe is what Aayla is although I'm not sure of her form). But really the only important part I was highlighting was that she was fully bloodlusted but Vos had a clear enough head to meet her blows then talk her down, which takes some level of skill and refinement itself.
Yes, I did.
Aayla uses Ataru and knows Shien, but this is mostly irrelevant because the Aayla from this time had no showings, and she her blows appeared sluggish and clumsy - applied with power, not skill.
Well we know Dooku used the Son's genes in order to create a shadow army of Morgukai clone assassins, all trained by the Anzati - which is impressive in that Dooku found him impressive enough in overall physical ability to base a clone army on him. The Father had a brief fight with Tholme which was broken up by the Son prematurely, but at least showed that the Father had the skill to combat a Jedi like Tholme even briefly. And the Son fighting for a prolonged time against Secura is impressive. So I'd say Vos fighting two of them simultaneously, while he's wounded severely, managing to decapitate one, is a very impressive feat, although perhaps not his best.
It's a fair showing, and one of the more accurate ones on his behalf.
While there is circumstance to be explained, it does not actually make the feat any less impressive than I've described it.
1. He wasn't being helped by Aayla in the physical sense, she just talked sense to him telepathically - which could be more distracting than anything else. But even if you did consider it to be some type of physical, momentary amplification of Vos' abilities (which I don't), then it is only fair to note that Vos had both Bulq and Dooku utilising Dun Moch on him simultaneously, which is very distracting to say the least.
2. Sora landed two Force pushes, yes (which is what afforded him the advantage in the fight). However there were quite a few physical blows in the fight (more than your giving credit for Quinlan trading) and a portion of the fight went on for a long time off-panel while Dooku talked. And even while we don't know what happened during that time, it does show that Vos was at least contending with Bulq during that period (since there was no obvious shift in advantage from character dialogue), and when it came back on panel Vos' lightsaber was still sizzling against Bulq's.
3. I believe they were trying to kill him from the offset. Dooku had no real use for Vos at this point. Him and Bulq were using Dun Moch on him, goading him to use the Dark Side, but were still trying to kill him. As Bulq says:
Come on Vos! Admit the truth before you die! Embrace the Dark Side!
And then there is:
Quin move! He is going to kill you!
We can only speculate as to why they were goading Vos, but it remains evident that Bulq was in no way holding back, and for at least 80% was trying to kill Vos. You know, the same way you've argued that Dooku was not holding back against Anakin just because he wasn't ordered to kill him?
1. So what if it wasn't physical? Aayla's intervention, if anything, was the catalyst for his victory.
2. As far as I'm concerned, Sora seemed to be fighting defensively. Quinlan Vos has the first strike, which can be considered an element of surprise, but we really never see Sora attacking Vos with his blade until the end, and possibly the one scan in the middle. The entire premise of Form VII is to finish a fight quickly, not to delay a fight by fighting defensively. Also, Vos appeared to have been entering a state of Dark Rage.
3. Dooku told Quinlan Vos to complete the tasks he was given, which indicates he did have use. They were not trying to kill him until the end, evidently.
4. Not a valid analogy. Dooku had to make the fight realistic and he was clearly pushed to his limits - nothing suggests the same for Sora Bulq.
This feat is really circumstantial, and Vos never won by virtue of being more skilful in the first place. He won because Bulq was making a stupid finishing move which left him prone to counterattack, because he likely believed Vos was beaten. This is similar to Maul's defeat at Kenobi's hands - it has its differences, but ultimately, Quinlan's victory really was not pertinent to his combative skill, because he was certainly not capable of gaining any edge beforehand, even with Dark Rage, and even when Sora Bulq never really seemed to devote himself to the aggression of Form VII.
It is canon. All Star Wars games have joined Legends Canon. Would, should - basically the same thing. And evidently he is, judging by his fights with Windu and Bulq.
Not all games, such as Kinect or whatever it was, and TFU was declared non-canon before that.
Should and would are certainly not the same thing. Should only implies possibility, not certainty, whereas would can tell us how he fights.
Windu and Bulq are not the most adept of lightsaber duelists. Dooku, who has stomped characters of Quinlan's class before, is not the most adept duelist either. The most adept duelists are Luke Skywalker, Palpatine, Caedus and Yoda, all of whom could beat Vos by blinking.
These accolade really has no value. I could just as easily bring up quotes for Shaak Ti being one of the best duelists in the Order and a match for Mace Windu and Obi-Wan, yet was stomped by Grievous twice, lost to Anakin without much of a fight, etc. I could bring up Luminara being "easily a match for Count Dooku", but she lost to Ventress. I could bring up Galen Marek's skills being described as "near-perfect", and yet he is an abhorrent duelist who has basically never won a single fight by virtue of skill, and even paltry Shadow Guards have assumed edges over him. I could bring up Anoon Bondara being "nearly unparalleled" in combat, yet losing handily to Maul, repeatedly being outsparred by Qui-Gon, etc, whom, while are good duelists, are only tier 8's at best, and therefore Anoon Bondara is likely only a tier 7 - nowhere near "nearly unparalleled". I could bring up Grievous being unrivaled by any Jedi, yet he lost to Obi-Wan and couldn't beat Windu, much less Yoda. In fact, if I recall correctly, Saba Sebatyne called Leia a "match for any Jedi Knight".
As I said, these accolades are pointless. We know that the best duelists would completely and utterly cream Quinlan Vos, and duelists who are not the most adept such as Agen Kolar and Count Dooku can already stomp him - Kolar having done so himself, Dooku having stomped Sora Bulq and Tholme, beings of Vos's class (and this is without regard to the circumstances around Bulq's defeat anyways).
I honestly see that fight as a low showing on Vos' part more than anything else. Three other fights (with Bulq and Windu) as well as that accolade above contradict Vos being stomped so horrendously by Kolar. However, if I was to go about justifying it, I would say that Vos was not yet in his prime at this point (like years later when he would fight Bulq), may have been suffering from duress, stress and emotional hinderance (to a point) from working as a double agent for so long, and skirting the line between light and dark so frequently. But the fact of the matter is four sources are contradicting one. If Vos really was the tier of duelist that can be disarmed in a moments notice by someone like Agen Kolar, then Windu and Bulq also would have done so, no?
You can't just dismiss this as an inconsistent feat. Agen Kolar is one of the single best duelists in the entirety of the Order's 25, 000 year history, and he has no other feats to bring this up as inconsistent.
Neither Windu nor Bulq were trying to attack him, even if Bulq was, he is probably not on par with Kolar, and Windu wasn't really trying in their spar anyways.
(Also worth noting that Vos hadn't been disarmed while dueling Dooku, and was seen sparring with him briefly with no noticeable advantage either way).
I have no idea how this can be constructed as a combat feat. You're grasping at straws if you think this means anything. Very clearly, Dooku was exerting no effort at all, and virtually never attacked Vos with his blade - all he did was parry Vos's blows with absolutely no difficulty whatsoever, and then hit him with kicks, Force attacks etc because the damage would be superficial, as opposed to a lightsaber hitting him. We know Vos is only roughly around the class of Tholme or Sora Bulq, both of whom Dooku has humiliated before. Dooku is vastly more skilful than Quinlan Vos, and in any realistic situation would have stomped him just as quickly as he did Bulq and Tholme. So no, this is not worth mentioning.
The description of Vos' lightsaber form and that he should be a challenge for even the most adept duelist (which in this context is tantamount to "would"), is completely canon, and just because you want to consider it "wishy-washy" does not make it so. Vos is nowhere near multiple tiers behind Windu and would not lose handily to him. Not in his prime anyway.
Not really. "Should" is weak writing, and as I said, I can bring up countless accolades for even unimpressive duelists such as Shaak Ti or Galen Marek. None of this indicates anything.
Vos is certainly multiple tiers behind Windu. Windu is on par with Dooku, a character who wrecks duelists Vos is only equal to at best. Mace is also superior to Agen Kolar, whom has directly stomped Vos.
Windu had the edge, yes, but Vos was years out of practice, which you neglected to address. Vos also was not in his prime here. Also, by Windu's own admission Vos was "holding back" in some manner, until he utilized Vaapad which worried Windu, for Vos' susceptibility to the Dark Side. Vos did not "have" to utilise a Vaapad technique and was not resorting to it in any manner, he was just using his knowledge to his advantage. Windu was pressing him and gaining the advantage so he used a more aggressive technique. Shows intelligence more than anything in my book. If Vos was in his prime, in practice and had free reign to utilise whatever techniques he wanted to, he could definitely pose a challenge to Windu. He has not been stomped by "duelist(s)" of inferior quality to Windu - he was stomped by one, which is contradicted by multiple other sources, and was also before Vos reached his prime.
I wouldn't say I'm stretching at all in all honesty. I'm going by actual showings and consistency.
Vos being out of practice or not in his prime is not a valid excuse - the same would apply to almost all of Leia's dueling feats. By plainly obvious inference, we can see that Windu was holding back vastly - as I said in my response to the Bulq feat, Form VII is a form designed to finish combat quickly. Windu was clearly being extremely casual for even a Jedi spar, he blocked most of Vos's blows without much effort at all and responded with kinetic hits because, again, the damage would be superficial, as opposed to a lightsaber hitting Vos. Windu himself was never the aggressor with the blade, until at the end, when Vos used Vaapad and was clearly strained to the maximum. Mace only attacked with his hilt and other physical blows, but not with his lightsaber, which he used to parry only. This is something which reflects Dooku's fight with Vos - a showing which really has little merit because the opposition was very clearly holding back. As for Vos holding back, I'm not entirely sure. Vos was sweating hard, whereas Windu was extremely lax and casual, enough so to simply explain to Vos the current weaknesses in his fighting. Mace even deflected a blow casually whilst turned away. Really, this says nothing about Quinlan being a contender for Windu.
Yes, you are stretching. Agen Kolar stomped Vos, Dooku has stomped Bulq and Tholme - characters who encompass Vos within his tier (one at least slightly superior and one slightly inferior), and Mace is, by multiple sources, an equal for Dooku. Mace also defeated Ventress within a few panels, and Ventress is a notch or two ahead of Quinlan Vos. Your sources contradict nothing - the accolade is more than likely just hype for Vos, just as with Shaak Ti, Galen Marek, Luminara etc, and the feats all contain context which you neglected to address. Windu and Dooku were evidently not trying at all, and Bulq was also seemingly fighting defensively, but even if he wasn't, which you have yet to prove, Quinlan Vos appeared to enter Dark Rage and still couldn't beat him - the fact is that Vos's victory is entirely circumstantial and not at all reflective of his dueling skill in comparison to Bulq. You can claim Agen Kolar stomping Vos as an inconsistent showing - I could just as easily claim Sora Bulq vs Quinlan Vos was also an inconsistent showing, and that would completely make sense - Vos was losing to Windu and Dooku who weren't trying, got stomped by Agen Kolar, and his fight with Bulq doesn't reflect his natural skill with a blade. I won't call Vos's feat with Bulq inconsistent, but I expect admission of Kolar stomping Vos to be a valid showing.
There was nothing unrealistic about the showings I've posted thus far, and the reason I didn't post/expound on his fights against Tholme and Aayla (and others) is because I wanted to start with his better ones. But for the sake of it, here is Vos fighting Tholme:
As you can see, the fight is relatively short and both combatants' overall effectiveness is being hindered by the chaotic environment. However, Quinlan was the clear aggressor and appeared to have the upper hand. On the whole it was pretty inconclusive due to Vos' usage of Cortosis to get a quick win. Again, not Vos' best feat, but it's nice.
The feats themselves are not unrealistic - but it's your interpretation of them which is unrealistic. Dooku and Mace weren't trying - a Dark Rage-amped Vos couldn't beat Sora Bulq who was fighting defensively, and he won by virtue of something tantamount to cheap-shotting a vulnerable target, etc.
As I said - Vos's most realistic and indisputable feats are fighting evenly with Aayla, fighting evenly with Tholme, and, whilst injured, beating one Morgukai before being saved from the other. The other showings are riddled with circumstances - mostly in relation to the opponent not going all out - this is very clear and utterly indisputable in the case of Windu and Dooku, whereas Bulq's effort levels are more unclear.
They were mostly roughly even - Vos should be a better duelist based on his superior showings against the two Morgukai, but Tholme is at the very least a close contender for him. Vos did get the first attack, after all, which, in fights, can be tantamount to gaining a free aggression for the rest of the fight, or at least part of it.
Fair enough as a supplementary showing.
To be honest, the fact that she was nowhere near her prime makes this feat at least as good as, say, rivaling Tholme.
She didn't defeat her. They dueled pretty evenly for a long time, then Leia accidentally cut off one of her Lekku's when going for her shoulder (as she proceeded to fly into a durasteel wall head first). That's more a result of an inherent weakspot on Twi'lek's than anything else. After the amputation they fought briefly, with Leia being struck in the throat and deciding to play dead until she escaped. It's an alright showing all around.
You missed the part where Leia gained the edge earlier on, and lost it due to extra enemies attacking her:
Leia allowed herself a small smirk of satisfaction-recalling how lopsided the combat had been in Alema's favor the last time they fought - then blocked a desperate slash at her ankles and slipped into a counter, angling the tip of her blade toward the Twi'lek's heart.
Before Leia could drive the thrust home, a thrumming mass of blue chitin hit her in the chest and bowled her over backward. She tried to bring her lightsaber up and found her arms pinned to her chest, then her attacker pressed the muzzle of a shatter gun to her ribs. She used the Force to push the weapon away, but then the insect's mandibles were clamped around her head, its needle-sharp proboscis darting toward her eye.
Source: Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen
Leia clearly had the edge, so much so that Alema's slash at her (Leia's) ankles was a "desperate slash", and Leia was preparing to strike home. Insects attacked her and she was unable to deliver the death blow. So yes, she was winning, until Killeks took that advantage away from her. It's also worth noting that she was only a Jedi Apprentice by this time, not in her prime - this is only 36 ABY, whereas the iteration we are using, at her prime, is 44-45 ABY.
She defeats her here (through an external factor rather than by virtue of lightsaber skill), but it's worth noting that Alema apparently only had one good arm? Surely this cannot be too impressive as a feat if Leia was fighting someone with one good arm.
Leia was also getting distracted by the ignorant Han Solo's incessant messages, and again, this is Leia from 36 ABY, almost a decade before the iteration we are using in 44-45 ABY. She only just became a Jedi Knight.
Wait, so what did the Vong warriors do that makes them impressive? The ones Alema killed specifically? I often hear about how impressive it is to do well against Vong warriors but I haven't ever seen an example or any real kind of source for why they're so impressive. All I hear is "Vong warriors have given X, Y and Z problems before so W defeating them is a good feat". I can't really take that without a pinch of salt until I actually see what is impressive about the Vong warriors.
I'm not sure what you're asking for, here. Are you asking for Yuuzhan Vong feats? Yuuzhan Vong in general are impressive because they aren't just fodder troopers like battle droids and clones - they were immune or at least resistant to most Force attacks, and couldn't be sensed by the Force, which, as memory serves, extends to the point of eliminating or at least lessening a Jedi's precognition and clairvoyance, which makes the Vong more dangerous. As I said, Vong warriors are not slouches and are able to present trouble for duelists who approach, rival or supersede Quinlan Vos, such as Kyle Katarn, Kyp Durron, Corran Horn, Mara Jade, Jacen Solo etc.
Aayla defeating Aurra Sing is very impressive actually. IIRC Aurra Sing was able to briefly engage Kenobi and Jinn at one point before making a retreat? She also has a fairly large kill resume and was a notorious bounty hunter. But aside from that, Vos and Aayla have not ever had a conclusive fight where a victor was determined by dueling skill, so I think it's hard for you to make the case that her and Vos are close to even. Aayla engaging in a very prolonged duel with the Son Morgukai is a lot less impressive than Vos engaging in a duel with the Son and Father whilst severely injured, and overall has better feats than Aayla, and should be comfortable above her as a duelist.
That was TPM Kenobi, if I recall, and she had the element of surprise. She is a fairly resourceful fighter, but not very overwhelming without predisposed edges. For instance, Plo Koon stomped her at one point.
Not to mention Vos' fights with Aayla are hardly his best dueling feats. His showings against Windu, Bulq and the Morgukai Warriors whilst injured are all more conclusive and impressive. There is also Vos' showing against Volfe Karko a Force User who was so powerful thousands of years ago (before he escaped from Stasis), that it required the Jedi's entire High Council to defeat him. He also evidently had the advantage in Force power, but Quinlan pulled through in the end:
The Morgukai are the only showings out of these which is indisputable. Mace was hardly trying in his fight, which was evident, and he exceeds the likes of Kolar, whom have stomped Vos, and rivals the likes of Dooku, whom would stomp Vos by virtue of stomping Vos-class characters, such as Tholme, who is approachable to Vos, and Sora Bulq, whom is, at the very least, equal to Vos - and likely equal to Vos with Dark Rage.
For Karkko, this is a decent feat, but wasn't Vos being helped by several other Jedi through the Force? And Karkko may be powerful, but not skilful (he is featless in that regard, if I remember correctly). As for the High Council beating him, this doesn't really make him an overwhelmingly formidable opponent because we have no idea who those High Council members are. We have characters like Coleman Trebor ascending to the Council, and the Council's members are chosen based on wisdom and similar things, not power or skill. We've had Grand Masters who were killed by Bounty Hunters.
So beating Karkko is mostly evident of one thing: that Vos can circumvent greater power. It's a nice showing, but not really an impressive skill feat.
Aayla has very few other feats aside from rivaling Vos and beating the one Morgukai, and beating Aurra Sing, to my memory. However, even if you do regard Vos as her superior (which I'm not too sure of, since he did have to fall back on the Force to beat her, which may be an indication of being unable to do so with a blade, or at least not conveniently), she is very close to Vos's level.
Overall I would say Vos' dueling track record is superior to Leia's by a noticeable margin.
Not true. I'd be willing to rescind my earlier statement and put them as equals as a duelists, but not superior. Leia beating Alema Rar years before her prime should be as good as any feat Vos has ever accomplished.
On the dueling front, I think it's also worth noting that Vos is more martially capable than Leia. In your quotes a couple of times Leia comes to close, or actually does, break sections of her hand/wrist when either blocking powerful strikes or hitting something hard like armor. She has also suffered from receiving physical strikes pretty badly.
We'll see.
The Twi'lek brought her knee up under Leia's chin, snapping her head back with such force that her vision went black for a moment.
This only lasted for a moment, and it's the same with any Force user around your class hitting you with a physical blow. We might as well say Ventress or Obi-Wan sucks in physical combat due to Dooku one-shotting them with kicks in TCW and the RotS comic/novel, respectively.
Leia's face had become so swollen that she could barely see out of one eye, and Alema kept circling to find a blind spot.
Terribly out of context. This is because insects' mandibles bore down on one of her eyes whilst she was trying to kill Alema. It was something of a surprise attack anyways. I could just as easily cite Vos being distracted by Cad Bane's little droid and then getting knocked down by Bane - as abhorrent of a fight as it was.
She called on the Force to stop her rotation, but by then the back of her head was thonking into the side of the branch.
This was TK, not a physical strike.
The moss was not as thick on the sides of the branches. The sound echoed inside her skull so hard that Leia thought she would never hear anything else. Then she felt her feet whipping down from above and sensed the darkness rising up to swallow hers and she knew she had come to one of those terrible instants when everything depended on willpower and the stubborn desire to live.
Again, this was due to TK, not a physical strike.
Fortunately, Saba had prepared her well for such moments. Leia found her arms lashing out behind her, one elbow hooking over the branch to stop her fall. Everything remained dark, but she knew she had to keep fighting, to keep her enemy . . . whoever that was-she was having trouble remembering . . . at bay.
This was a consequence of the above two quotes, which, again, was TK. Not a physical blow.
Comparatively, Vos has no-sold physical strikes from Mace Windu and Morgukai warriors, tanked being thrown into a stone wall by Karkko ect. He has also survived large falls, protected himself and Aayla from dying from a ship crash, supported a boulder with telekinesis while being stabbed by shuriken, going on to fight two Morgukai with these injuries after zero recovery time, and even survived being shot directly by a tank, then going on to fight multiple clones without succumbing to his injuries. He hasn't ever been dazed or physically injured by the same types of impacts Leia has, and appears to be the physically stronger combatant. Not that this is a massive advantage, but being able to take the punch better, and land harder punches is important - especially when both combatants are so prone to going to their martial ability in fights.
LOL. Come on, now. Vos was no-selling Windu's strikes? Based on what? He was never shrugging off the blow, which was a very casual one anyways, and then he got dominated by TK. The Morgukai is a good showing, and so are a number of his other ones. I'll concede that Vos has more durability, but not necessarily more resilience.
Really, Leia is hardly lackluster in taking blows. She has withstood blows from Alema Rar without budging, as well:
Alema dropped to her haunches and somehow snap-kicked from that impossible position, and Leia's middle exploded into pain.
The Princess exhaled hard, forcing the pain out, and did not yield a centimeter.
Source: Dark Nest III: The Swarm War
Fair enough - although this doesn't surpass the Morgukai feat.
It rivals it, though.
Okay I'm sorry but this argument just doesn't work. Vos doesn't need to switch between one form and then the next, and he isn't any better with one form than another. Vos has his own fighting style which encompasses both Ataru and Shien. He can use a Shien technique to redirect blaster fire back at Leia and can then resume using Ataru in melee (where Leia will be hard pressed to use her blaster, since she'll need to focus on an incredibly aggressive and martially superior opponent rushing her). He also used Shien in his fight with Bulq - his best feat - so I don't see why he'd be at a disadvantage using it against Leia. Shien hasn't been noted as being more suited to multiple opponents to my knowledge, but even if that is the case, you could not make the argument that Vos could not duel a single opponent using Shien just because of it's on-paper application - he's used Shien against single opponents plenty of times, and tends to switch between it and Ataru frequently. Unless we're now saying is at a disadvantage against lone opponents because he uses Shii-Cho?
So no, Vos won't need to use Ataru to deflect blaster fire, and he won't need to exclusively use Shien in melee combat, and Leia will not have any kind of advantage over Vos in terms of form. What Form has Leia mastered by the way?
I admit that having a blaster might help Leia somewhat, but it's not going to provide her any wins. Vos is still more skilled and martially superior, is perfectly capable of dodging and deflecting blaster fire, and is such an aggressive fighter that Leia may not even get the chance to really make use of her blaster.
1. Where was that stated? His form encompasses both, but he can only use one at a time, and as I said, it would not be convenient for him to utilize any single one form when Leia is using both her blaster and lightsaber at once.
2. I never intended to insinuate that Vos would be prominently or exponentially hindered, only that his forms are less suited for combat against Leia.
3. As far as I know, Leia's form has never been stated, but based off her fighting style and occasional willingness to integrate Force attack, as well as her diplomatic heritage, it is likely she used Form VI: Niman.
4. Vos is martially capable, but not more skilful. You've been relying on his holding his own against Windu and Bulq, but both of these feats are riddled with circumstances - Windu certainly didn't seem like he was trying at all, and Bulq was fighting more defensively than he should have, not to mention Vos seemingly used Dark Rage and had the first strike, which could have been an element of surprise. Vos's victory was entirely circumstantial, achieved with Aayla's help, and speaks nothing of his lightsaber skill. He just struck down a vulnerable Bulq because Bulq was using a stupid finishing maneuver and likely thought Vos was already down. His other showings do not eclipse Leia's, especially since Leia accomplished her feats against good opponents as an apprentice or a newly christened knight, years before her prime.
As for Leia's blaster, it should help her noticeably. Quinlan Vos is a Jedi with a lightsaber, as with a vast majority of duelists, and that is something Leia is accustomed to. Quinlan, however, is certainly not accustomed to facing both blaster and lightsaber at once from a single Force-sensitive, which is an inherent edge for Leia and should be able to counter Vos's martial edge.
Not too sure how to gauge this as a power feat, but it's alright. Being able to slow her descent from powerful winds is good, but in this context I can't see exactly how powerful the winds are. Unless Leia is strong enough to resist winds that can destroy AT-ST's then I wouldn't say this surpasses Vos' power showings.
They were cyclones, as far as I'm concerned, and yes, I have no reason to believe they would be inconsistent to Streen's other Alter Environment showings, which have not only thrown AT-ST's for hundreds of meters to kilometers (to memory), but also crushed those AT-ST's. There's nothing to indicate these winds were anything less, and Streen is simply extremely powerful. Leia accomplishing this feat before her Jedi training, decades before her prime, should eclipse any of Vos's showings - not by much, but still noticeably.
This is alright but I would say what Vos did to K'Kruhk and Secura was better.
Alema is markedly more powerful than either of them by virtue of her talents displayed in other areas, since you considered Force Concealment showings a valid power feats for Quinlan Vos.
Now this is more impressive, and is enough to suggest Leia is approaching Vos in power. Despite the fact all she did was swing the clawcraft around while it was hanging, and then ripped out it's foundations, it's impressive because of the size of it.
As a showing, it should rival Vos's feats, I would say. Again, she accomplished this feat in 36 ABY, as opposed to the 44-45 ABY prime Leia were are using here, and she did this feat relatively casually - as with a vast majority of her TK feats. Most of them required moderate, minimal, or no effort at all.
This isn't too overwhelming.
Not too overwhelming.
Not too overwhelming, Ewok's aren't very heavy.
She accomplished these (by logical inference) effortlessly, and this was also before her prime by almost a decade, so I do think it's not too shabby. Now, it doesn't eclipse Vos's showings in any way, but then, most of Leia's TK feats are simple and based on affecting people moreso than the environment.
Well, she had help with holding it together too from both Jacen and Jaina, and the task was too large for her on her own. So I don't really know how to gauge this feat.
The Millennium Falcon is much larger than the 20m x roughly 5m x 7-8m Eta-class shuttle Maul pulled down, for reference. By statistics, it is 34.37 x 25.61 x 8.27 meters - more than 7279 cubic meters. While it is true that Jacen and Jain aided her, this was mostly because the Falcon was actually descending and preparing to land, which was what Leia needed Jacen and Jaina's help with (since Leia's levitational powers are relatively lackluster in comparison to her other telekinetic abilities). The task itself was deemed "too large", but that referred to landing the ship along with just holding it together, and although it is a showing done with a lot of strain, it was still done - and Leia was never overwhelmed, and the cracks were rapidly spreading as well. I'd still say that holding the Millennium Falcon together and preventing it from being ripped apart, which she was able to maintain before she had any help, is a noticeably superior power feat to any of Vos's ones. Also, she did this in LotF, which is about four-five years prior to FotJ and Crucible, which is, by reasonable inference, when she reached her prime. She should have been at least very close, though, so the difference should be marginal at best.
I'd be willing to put them as rivals in Force power, but Leia certainly doesn't exceed Vos.
No, Leia rivals Vos at worst. Her first and last showings that I posted are plainly superior to Vos's showings - just because you can't properly gauge them doesn't mean they are to be dismissed. DC tells me that Kyp Durron did once say Leia was as powerful as he was.
No, I didn't mean that Vos could use his Force concealment. I meant that it could be an indicator of overall power. The same way one could infer Sidious or Vitiate's power through their telepathic feats, or Traya's speed through her power feats. Although it's worth noting that Vos was able to disappear from Windu's sight mid-duel through a Force leap, and has gone undetected by every witch on Dathomir including the Shaman pretty casually. They couldn't even find his Force signature never mind realize he was a Jedi. Vos could potentially use the same tactic in this setting by leaping to a higher area and then taking a stealthy approach. With the sense feats you posted, none really involved much resistance on the other party's part barring Alema, who isn't as stealthy as Vos, who has also hidden is Force signature, just from more impressive people.
Alema has entirely shut down her presence in the Force before, and she has better TP feats with which to influence other people's minds. Her Concealment powers are just as good as Vos's.
But then, if you are allowed to use Concealment as a symptom of his overall power, then I can do the same for Leia using non-combative Force powers as well.
Before she received any training in the Force - in fact, before she even learnt of her Force-sensitivity - Leia is capable of preventing Vader from manipulating her mind with the Force to extract knowledge of the Rebel base's location, and also resists mind probes and truth drugs, showing mental resiliency and control that rivals that of a Jedi despite her having no training in the Force (this is ANH Leia):
Behind him, the interrogator droid followed. It was a crude tool, a blunt instrument compared with the subtlety and precision possible with the Force; however, Princess Leia's mind was too strong to easily manipulate, even with the power of the dark side at his beck and call. It was possible that he could wrest the knowledge from her, but he might end up destroying the very information he sought. She would force him to burn her brain to a husk before she would willingly part with the data - of that he had no doubt.
Source: Death Star
But, after half an hour, despite the truth drugs, electrical shocks, and other inducements he had administered, it was evident that her resistance had not been lowered enough for him to probe her mind. That was surprising.
She was physically weakened and in considerable pain, but her mind remained shielded. She had revealed nothing.
Most unusual for anyone except a Jedi to have such control, he mused.Source: Death Star
Vader said, "Her resistance to the mind-probe is considerable. It will be some time before we can extract any information from her."Source: Death Star
Leia is able to sense Luke's presence nearby, that his mind is imprisoned, and is then able to recognize that he had lost to Palpatine, partially falling to the dark side:
Leia uses Force Harmony in unison with Luke and the unborn Anakin to cut off Palpatine from the dark side, causing him to lose control of his Wormhole:
Gallery
Despite being heavily drugged, she appears to be able to resist an amped Beldorion's telepathic powers, where she doesn't suffer anything in contrast to Liegus suffering from migraines:
He raised Leia to her feet and led her back to the door. Beldorion made no move to stop them, but as Liegeus reached to touch the opener plate Leia saw the Hutt gesture pettishly in his direction. Liegeus gasped as if struck, half-doubled over in agony, his free hand going to his temple. He was ashen with shock and pain as Leia slapped the opener plate with the backs of her fingers. The door sliced open, and she led him through, stumbling blind and clinging to the wall for support.
They were halfway down the corridor, opposite the blast doors that led into the docking bay, before Liegeus straightened up and drew a shaky breath. "Migraine," he managed to say through lips drained of color and blood. "He does that-sometimes-when I beat him at ho-logames, too. Sometimes-worse than that."
He shook his head, his hand stealing to his throat, cast a quick glance at the open blast doors, and putting a hand behind her elbow led her rather rapidly toward the stairs. "Did he try to influence your mind? Don't trust him, my dear."
Source: Planet of Twilight
Leia Force-flashes all the security cameras in the Jedi temple, which prevents Corran Horn from identifying where she is:
When no one answered his question, Luke said, "Forget I asked. Where are they now?"
All eyes turned to Corran, who was monitoring the Temple security channels over an ear comm.
"We don't know, "he said. "They escaped into Fellowship Plaza, and Leia's been Force-flashing the security cams."
Source: Legacy of the Force: Inferno
Leia disables a droid with the Force faster than it can finish say a word:
"Your cell door has malfunctioned." The droid planted its foot and began to bring up the heavy stun blaster in its right arm. "Return to your cell and remain-"
Leia flicked her finger at the EverAlert's head and used the Force to flip its primary circuit breaker. The switch lay hidden beneath its neck armor, but that was no hindrance to a Jedi.
"-staaaationaaaar..."
The droid's chin slumped against its chest, and the stun bolt it had been preparing ricocheted harmlessly off the floor.
Source: Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen
Her Force showings as a whole are superior to Vos's. In fact, since we use power to determine Force Speed levels at times, we can do the inverse and use Force Speed levels to determine power levels, and Leia is just faster.
I wouldn't say there is any huge gap in combat or reaction speed. Leia hasn't deflected or dodged near the same amount of blaster fire Vos has.
This is mostly agility, not combat or reaction speed. And Leia has deflected blaster fire from several Mandalorians whom possessed reflexes of a Jedi's class, reacted to Lightning decades before her prime, etc.
Vos also had no issue keeping up with the speed of someone like Windu or Bulq. As I said - there is only so much a comic can show, opposed to a novel anyway. Although for combat speed we do have Vos pulling out his lightsaber before Villie realizes, and also states that due to his precognition he would know when Villie thinks about firing, allowing Vos to ignite his saber:
Since when did Bulq have impressive speed feats?
Windu never fought offensively with Vos, and wasn't really trying. In one of their spars, it clearly says Windu fights only defensively, which basically goes against the premise of Form VII, which is to finish a fight as quickly as possible. This isn't said in their other spar, but Windu appears even more casual, and still only defends rather than attacks. And Windu is certainly not faster than Leia - whom, if anything, has better speed feats than Windu.
In a novel this type of feat would probably be described like "before Villie could react" or "before Villie realized" or "faster than Villie could see". But alas, we can only take what is on panel.
Not really impressive. Leia has consistently speedblitzed men and creatures.
Vos is the better duelist because he has contended with, and in Bulq's case, defeated better opponents than Leia.
No, he hasn't. He contended with a Dooku who never tried to attack him with his blade, was smiling the whole fight, and whom only blocked Vos's blows with seemingly laughable ease and then responded to casually hitting him with kicks and Force attacks. He contended with a Mace Windu who only fought defensively/casually and clearly never tried despite Quinlan Vos sweating hard, and he defeated Bulq in a way that is not reflective of combat skill at all - and he was unable to beat Sora Bulq in a semi-realistic fight at best despite getting the first strike and seemingly tapping into Dark Rage. He also got stomped by Kolar, a character of Mace's and Dooku's class. His indisputable feats are fighting evenly with Aayla and Tholme on separate occasions, and his showing against the Morgukai. This does not exceed Leia beating Alema Rar before her prime. You're overrating Quinlan Vos.
He is also more martially capable, being able to take more damage while also dealing out his own frequently.
Agreed, but these aren't his most pertinent edges in a duel against other Force-users.
Leia is not exceeding Vos in power, and is at the very best even to him, but even if she was superior to him, which she isn't, Vos has shown in his fights with Bulq and Karkko that he can overcome an opponent who is stronger in the Force than him through physical means.
Leia is most certainly exceeding Vos in power. Her telekinetic feats are superior, her showings with the Force in general are superior, and her status as a direct descendant of Anakin, the character with the most potential in SW lore and who was vastly more powerful than Vos, should all reflect superiority in power.
Leia's only edges are her pistol and travel speed, which are only so useful and could not provide an extra win out of ten.
Her blaster, which, in synonymous use with her lightsaber, will surprise Vos and potentially give him trouble, can compensate for any martial edge Vos has, since Vos is utterly unprepared for such unorthodox tactics.
As I said, her running speed is not the same as something like flight speed, so it should be translatable to speed in general, and she is superior in this regard. But it won't likely do much.
Just a side note which I forgot to mention, actually. Another edge for Vos is his advantages in agility. Unless Leia has shown the ability to compensate for an opponent as agile as Vos combatively, then it should be yet another edge for him in this fight.
This edge has never really surfaced in duels with other Force users, and Leia has an edge in speed, which should be enough to cancel this out since speed is more pertinent than agility (although neither would really be worth much in this fight).
Leia also seems to have better tactical capacity in duels. Quinlan Vos using his cortosis gauntlets against Tholme is good, for instance, but then, he doesn't have them here. Leia has also displayed tactical capacity which at least rivals Quinlan Vos's:
Kicking sand into Querdan Dei's face, which is taking advantage of the environment:
Leia was not intimidated. She retreated a step before he could shove her away, disengaged, kicked. His blade swept through the air where her leg should have ended up, but she hadn't followed through. Sand propelled by her foot spattered against his face - the right side of his face. He grinned. Hers had been a viable tactic, countered by damage he'd already sustained.
Source: Fate of the Jedi: Conviction
Noticing a minor mistake Querdan Dei made and then capitalizing on it to decapitate him immediately (which shows good awareness and responsive speed):
Complementarity - their blades locked, sizzling, then they spun away from each other, and Dei realized he'd made a mistake. Spinning toward his off-hand as he'd done thousands of times, he lost sight of his opponent a fraction of a second early, betrayed by his missing eye. He felt Leia surge in the Force. He whirled his blade in a defensive, protective pattern, but it encountered nothing.
They came to a stop facing each other. Dei felt a curious sense of detachment.
Then he found himself staring at the sky. He didn't know how, but suddenly he was looking up at the stars. Then at the camp beyond the overlook, and it was upside down. Then at the backs of his own legs and feet. His head hit the sand a moment before his body collapsed. His head rolled a few meters, then came to a stop. The last thing he saw was the nexu, puffed up, blood-spattered, sitting staring at him.
And darkness washed that image away forever.
Source: Fate of the Jedi: Conviction
Playing along with Alema Rar and taking advantage of the situation to clear her vision:
Leia stopped advancing-more to give her eyes a chance to bring her enemy into focus than because she was considering the offer-and glanced down. There did seem to be a big silver blur lying in a bed of green.
"It would be a shame to let the Chiss recover it," Alema said. "Can't we strike a truce long enough to destroy it-then finish killing each other?"
Leia pretended to consider the offer while her vision finished clearing, then-when Alema's extra heads and arms disappeared-she shook her own head.
"Let's do it now."
Source: Dark Nest III: The Swarm War
Baiting Alema Rar:
Then a wisp of hot breath brushed the back of Leia's neck, and she knew it was time. The Princess tried a throat slash and swung wide, deliberately leaving herself open for a heart thrust. Never having been one to resist temptation, Alema could not help lunging for the kill.
Leia had already flexed her knees and was springing off the sagging branch, bringing her feet up over her head in an open Force flip. She saw the Twi'lek stretched out below her, not quite off balance-but not far from it-her neck craned back as she watched her target fly overhead. Leia brought her lightsaber down, striking for the head. Alema could only whip her lightsaber up in a desperate block. The blades clashed in a growling shower of sparks and light, then the Princess was swinging down behind her, twisting around to plant one foot between the Twi'lek's shoulders and send her stumbling toward the shaggy mass that had been creeping up behind Leia.
Source: Dark Nest III: The Swarm War
As a whole, I don't think this should make much of an impact or difference on the fight though.
As far as I'm concerned, I may be willing to retract for former point and take this to a 5/10 split either side. Leia and Vos are just as skilled as one another - Leia's blaster countering Vos's martial ability, her greater speed and tactical applications mid-duel countering his greater agility, and she does have greater power, but it shouldn't make much of an impact on the fight, and she would win no more than 5.5-6/10 at best. I'm still willing to call this an even split if you wish.
@shootingnova: I'm going to go over all of Vos' fights with Windu-class opponents and then give my verdict on how Vos' skill level stands in relation to them at the end.
Vos vs Sora Bulq
Dooku and Bulq's combined Dun Moch, as well as Vos' completely evident emotional hinderance could have been catalysts for his defeat, so Aayla talking sense into Vos, allowing him to focus like a normal combatant allowing him to kill Bulq isn't a massive advantage by any means. Not to mention she only focused him properly at the end of the fight, not during the majority of it where Vos was fighting evenly with Bulq, and not before Bulq openly said he was going to kill Vos. I don't see why you're electing to ignore this.
Vos was battling a darkness within himself which was manifesting itself as a Dark Side Quinlan Vos, and was actively tempting him to give in to the Dark Side. Meanwhile Aayla is telepathically contacting him and he's telling her "Get away". I just don't see how you can reasonably bend this fight in such a way that Vos was not affected negatively in any way, but only positively, and that Bulq was holding back and only fighting defensively (when he himself said he was trying to kill Vos). I mean you're even insinuating that Vos drew on Dark Rage despite the fact there is nothingto prove this. As I said, I agree there is plenty of circumstance behind this fight, but your argument is relying on this notion that the circumstances were completely in favour of Vos when they evidently weren't. Him and Bulq were on an even playing field at best - at worst Bulq was trying to kill him halfway through the fight while Vos was emotionally hindered from an internal struggle.
As for Bulq supposedly not trying to kill Vos, or only fighting defensively/holding back in any way (Which would make the feat less impressive):
Both fighting aggressivelyBulq stating his intention to kill Bulq while lunging downard at him with an aggressive strike.Khaleen expressing her concern that Bulq is going to kill Vos if he does not move.Bulq preparing to strike Vos down.
And right after the first scan I posted, the comic cuts to this fight:
The comic then cuts back to Vos vs Bulq, starting with the second scan I posted with Bulq lunging for Vos. Meaning during the time period where Secura had a reasonably long conversation with the Morgukai and then fought him, Vos at least did enough to contend with Bulq and not lose the duel, get disarmed ect, and potentially fought evenly with him there like he did in previous panels. And this was without any help from anyone or any circumstance. This was an aggressive and arguably lethal Sora Bulq, that Vos held his own against. Even if you discredit the rest of the fight, this portion of it is void of any circumstance and can therefore be used as a feat irrefutably.
In any case, my argument is that Vos was not under favourable circumstances, that Bulq wasn't holding back at the start of the fight, and later on fully intended to kill him, and that this is a feat which should put Vos above Leia in dueling skill.
On another quick note before I move on: I do agree about the accolade thing.
DC tells me that Kyp Durron did once say Leia was as powerful as he was.
Going by feats, this isn't the case. So this, like Vos' accolade, shouldn't matter too much. Also, it's Deronn now :p
Vos vs Windu - The Fight
I believe this fight took place prior to the sparring match between Vos and Windu. Let's take a look at how Vos does.
Windu rushes at Vos to subdue him.
Vos kicks Windu in the face, then they lock sabers evenly.
The lock sabers evenly again.
Vos disappears, and it is confirmed that Windu was only fighting defensively.
Vos reappears, and it is confirmed that he is seeking to kill Windu.
They lock blades evenly once again.
What we can take away from this is that Vos well out of his prime was able to fight relatively evenly with Mace Windu, while Mace was holding back a very large amount. This isn't too impressive for Vos but it shows that he can, at this point in time, at least hold his own against a Windu who only seeks to block his attacks.
Vos vs Mace Windu - The Sparring Match
This is how I break it down.
Vos has not held a lightsaber for months (and has instead been using a blaster), and Mace says that one should keep one's skills honed, which would evidently be the intention of the sparring match - to keep Vos' skills honed, since they had degraded somewhat from being out of practice. Add in the fact this sparring match took place 3 months after the Battle of Geonosis, which was the best part of 3 whole years prior to Vos' duel with Bulq (where he was emotionally hindered and distracted no less), and it's pretty certain to say that this is not Vos at his best, with a clear head and honed fighting skill. Fair to say?
They trade a blow evenly and then distance is created, while Windu comments that Vos has to work on fighting more loosely. Vos being out of practice does reinforce the notion that Vos would be a little bit tense or less fluid in his dueling.
Vos is off-balance because he has fear and anger inside of him. He also begins to sweat, but does continue to clash blades with Windu.
Vos is fighting tentatively and therefore Windu can anticipate his moves. Vos is thinking too hard and feeling too much. Yet still, he trades two more blows with Windu.
Windu finally gains the advantage by landing a strike. He also observes that Vos has been holding back and hasn't been focusing on the fight. This would explain Vos' difficulty earlier. He had fear and anger inside of him, and had not held a lightsaber in months, therefore not only was he fighting hesitantly and without focus, but he was fighting less aggressively and fluidly than he usually does, where he would normally be demonstrating strength and acrobatics.
Vos is visibly completely fine after being struck in the face, even somewhat smirking (which backs up my point that he no-selled the strike, although no-selled may be exaggerating slightly, he still took the shot unphased for the most part).
Vos then agrees that he will no longer hold back on him. He strikes Windu with a Vaapad maneuver which causes Windu noticeably more difficulty to defend from than previous blows in the fight. Windu then ends the fight through a Force push.
What can we take away from this? That there were several factors hindering Vos' overall performance against Windu, which allowed Windu to gain the advantage while holding back (although Vos did trade multiple strikes with Windu throughout the fight and wasn't stomped by any means). Then things briefly even up when Vos stops holding back, and the fight ends prematurely. Based on this, I think it is safe to say that Vos would do much better if he wasn't holding back his anger or aggression, was in-practice, and in his prime. You know, like against Bulq?
Anyway, my overall point at this point in time is that without the circumstances in both of these fights, Vos would be able to do somewhat better against Windu and Bulq even if they were not holding back, and while he would not defeat them, he would do enough to hold his own. And without these circumstances, he should be able to defeat Leia in a lightsaber duel.
Vos vs Kolar
I don't think it's too necessary to point out what happens in this fight. Kolar basically stomps Vos. However this is prior to the Bulq fight, so it's not out of the question to suggest that Vos improved between the time he fought Kolar (while he was a Dark Jedi, with ongoing training) and Bulq (had finished Dark Jedi training, rejoined the Jedi, fought in the Clone Wars ect). I would say also that this fight is in fact consistent with Vos' two prior engagements with Mace Windu, however as we see, Vos' fights later on clearly show that Kolar is not his ceiling after he improves. So, I will agree that at this point in time, Vos would have been stomped by a trying Mace Windu-tier opponent.
Vos vs Dooku - The Sparring Match and The Fight
In their sparring match they trade two lightsaber blows, and Dooku lands one kick. He then abuses his advantage in Force power to gain the victory. Dooku ends by remarking "better" (and seeing as this fight takes place after Vos' fight with Kolar, it only proves my theory that Vos improved in skill after fighting Kolar, through his training). Overall nothing too upsetting here.
Now for their fight, which takes place after the sparring match.
Dooku initiates the duel.Either they clash blades or Dooku is just approaching Vos at this point. The art makes it hard to tell.Vos and Dooku continue dueling although it's not clear if they have clashed sabers at this point. Still, neither has an obvious advantage.Dooku shows some level of strain as he clashes blades with Vos.Dooku deactivates his saber.Dooku stomps Vos with telekinesis.
What can we take away from this fight? That Vos going all out, without circumstances hindering or aiding him (and before his prime) was able to engage in a short duel with Dooku, where neither had an obvious advantage and Dooku did not appear to be having an easy time. This coincides with my point that Vos, after some improvement and a better mindset, would have faired better against Mace Windu in that sparring match, and Kolar in their fight.
And, well, if we want to take it a step further, I could use an argument like this:
However, even if you do regard Dooku as his superior (which I'm not too sure of, since he did have to fall back on the Force to beat him, which may be an indication of being unable to do so with a blade, or at least not conveniently), he is very close to Dooku's level.
An excerpt from ShootingNova, with a few words changed here and there.
Since Dooku has used the Force to gain an advantage over Vos in duels twice where neither had a glaring advantage, although one was the clear aggressor (much like Vos vs Secura), I don't see how you can disagree with me if we were to use your logic.
Now, another part of your argument was that Dooku should be able to stomp Vos because he "stomped" "Vos-class characters", aka Tholme and Bulq (Bulq still being a Jedi, before his additional training with Dooku and before he had shown the ability to duel evenly with Windu). Let's take a look at that fight.
Dooku vs Bulq and Tholme
Dooku throws Tholme away with telekinesis while he disarms Bulq.Dooku takes Bulq out with lightning.Dooku and Bulq lock blades.Dooku and Tholme continue dueling.Dooku lands the match-winning strikes.Dooku takes Tholme down.
At first glance you would say "well Vos dueled evenly with Tholme but Dooku stomped Tholme, so Dooku should stomp Vos" Sound logic, no? No!
This duel in particular took place only a few months after Geonosis - almost exactly the same time as Vos' duel with Mace Windu. As we can see here, at this particular moment in time, Vos and Tholme are not capable of contending with the likes of Windu and Dooku. Then we fast forward to when Vos and Tholme duel to a premature end, with neither one really being declared better. How at this point can you show that Vos is not only better than equal to Tholme, but capable of contending with the likes of Windu and Dooku where Tholme can't?
Ladies and gents, I present to you..
Tholme Losing Handily to Sora Bulq Right Before Vos Duels Evenly With Him
Bulq and Tholme lock blades twice.Bulq quickly gains the advantage with two more moves.Bulq has Tholme on his death bed.
And before you say "Bulq was trying to kill Tholme but not Vos, that's why Vos held his own" - not true. If Bulq could have so easily replicated this type of victory over someone supposedly close to equal to Tholme, he could have done it without making extensive use of superior Force power, and he still could have Vos in the same position, just alive. Yet, he had no such success with Vos, even with his Force power advantage. I mean, it took a significantly longer period of time for Bulq to get Vos on the ground (which only happened through a telekinetic attack, not a physical one) and he didn't even land a physical blow on Vos. I find it hard to see Vos and Tholme as equals at this point, seeing as Vos has done considerably better against common foes.
Not to mention it's evident that Vos did not wish to kill Tholme anyway, seeing as he set Tholme up to be defenceless just so he could propose an offer.
Now credit where credit is due, they did fight evenly and Vos was obviously aggressive and not holding back too much in this fight, but I would still argue the point that he put more into his fight with Bulq than against Tholme, based on what I posted above and the fact it is his former Master.
So, I've covered Vos' fight with Sora Bulq, his fights with Windu-class characters, and Tholme's fights and why he isn't equal to Vos. Now here is my verdict on Vos' skill overall as a duelist.
He should be skilled enough to pose someone like Mace Windu or Dooku a challenge for something like three to five exchanges before losing the duel. He should have enough skill to challenge someone of Kenobi's class but still, wouldn't defeat them or ever gain any advantage. And he should be a skilled enough duelist to be proclaimed marginally more skilled than Leia in lightsaber combat, which is most important of all in this thread.
Force Power
After reviewing Leia's feat of barely holding together the Millennium Falcon with telekinesis, I'm willing to proclaim her as marginally more powerful than Vos. However, it is my view (and yours apparently), that Vos has what it takes to circumvent greater power, as seen in his fights against Volfe Karkko.
So beating Karkko is mostly evident of one thing: that Vos can circumvent greater power.
A wise man.
In the event Leia does attempt to press her power advantage (however marginal it may be), Vos should be able to take it, power through and close the gap between them, making this fight a physical one, which is where Vos' victory lies.
Martial Arts
I think here it is fair to say that both Vos and Leia are capable hand-to-hand fighters. At this point in time, I would argue that Vos being IMO somewhat stronger and more durable, combined with the acrobatic leverage he puts on his physical blows, should have the upper hand when it comes to landing and receiving physical blows in terms of damage inflicted and received, although this advantage is still only marginal.
Leia's Blaster
I'm going to put it out there that it won't have very much bearing on the fight for a few reasons.
As I've shown, Vos is more than capable of perceiving, deflecting and dodging blaster fire.
Vos' precognition, as I've shown, let's him know when an opponent thinks about firing their blaster before they do it, therefore he should be able to pre-emptively avoid her blaster fire.
Leia has not tagged anyone as agile or acrobatic as Vos, and her blaster becomes somewhat of a liability once Vos closes the gap, since a shot could be redirected back at her.
I just haven't seen enough of Leia's blaster-lightsaber related feats to suggest she can effectively use her blaster to gain wins over Vos. It's also worth noting that Vos can possibly throw Leia's aim off in this setting by throwing objects at her telekinetically, like he did against Aayla Secura. He is also very proficient in Saber throw, so it's not like he is out of projectiles himself. A quick saber throw coupled with an acrobatic advance could give him the opening he needs to draw Leia's fire away and then close the gap.
(Prepare for multiple stacked scans of awesome saber throweyness)
As far as I'm concerned, I may be willing to retract for former point and take this to a 5/10 split either side. Leia and Vos are just as skilled as one another - Leia's blaster countering Vos's martial ability, her greater speed and tactical applications mid-duel countering his greater agility, and she does have greater power, but it shouldn't make much of an impact on the fight, and she would win no more than 5.5-6/10 at best. I'm still willing to call this an even split if you wish.
My view is that Vos is a better duelist by a noticeable but not massive extent, while Leia is more tactically capable and more powerful (although not by much. I mean, it's not combat-related entirely, but Vos showed a lot of intelligence when playing as a double agent for Dooku and the Jedi, for example, when he used Rancisis' battle meditations to garner his forces the advantage in the battle against the CIS, while he used it as a gateway to get closer to Dooku and Bulq). However I'd say dueling skill is more pertinent here. Then there is the fact that when the time comes when they both trade blows martially, Vos is coming off better through his strength and durability. And finally, Vos has the means to avoid and offset Leia's aim with a blaster, to the point that it becomes a bit of a liability in close quarters. There is a reason the Jedi don't use blasters - they're easily avoided by other capable Jedi.
I am more leaning towards a 5/10, however I don't see it as out of the question that Vos could conceivably obtain a 6/10 through his dueling skill, should you choose to interpret him it that way.
At this point I think I've said all there is to be said on this fight from my viewpoint, but if there's anything new to discuss in your reply I'll certainly make a response. Although I'm somewhat happy with this as a closing post. In any case it's been a good platform for me to express my views on Vos as a duelist, and I've been enjoying the debate. So, as usual, I look forward to your reply Nova.
@i_like_swords: I'll respond now. You can start the voting after this, if you want any votes at all.
Vos vs Sora Bulq
Dooku and Bulq's combined Dun Moch, as well as Vos' completely evident emotional hinderance could have been catalysts for his defeat, so Aayla talking sense into Vos, allowing him to focus like a normal combatant allowing him to kill Bulq isn't a massive advantage by any means. Not to mention she only focused him properly at the end of the fight, not during the majority of it where Vos was fighting evenly with Bulq, and not before Bulq openly said he was going to kill Vos. I don't see why you're electing to ignore this.
Vos was battling a darkness within himself which was manifesting itself as a Dark Side Quinlan Vos, and was actively tempting him to give in to the Dark Side. Meanwhile Aayla is telepathically contacting him and he's telling her "Get away". I just don't see how you can reasonably bend this fight in such a way that Vos was not affected negatively in any way, but only positively, and that Bulq was holding back and only fighting defensively (when he himself said he was trying to kill Vos). I mean you're even insinuating that Vos drew on Dark Rage despite the fact there is nothingto prove this. As I said, I agree there is plenty of circumstance behind this fight, but your argument is relying on this notion that the circumstances were completely in favour of Vos when they evidently weren't. Him and Bulq were on an even playing field at best - at worst Bulq was trying to kill him halfway through the fight while Vos was emotionally hindered from an internal struggle.
As for Bulq supposedly not trying to kill Vos, or only fighting defensively/holding back in any way (Which would make the feat less impressive):
1. I don't recall anything in the scans indicating his emotions directly hindered him - they could have just as easily fueled a dark usage of the Force. Regardless of Aayla's form or extent of aid, it is aid nonetheless, and Vos would not have won at all due unless she had been there.
2. Vos fighting the darkness within him reflects emotional turmoil, but the depiction of it in the comic is vague. The illustrations of Vos's inner demons only appeared toward the end of the fight, after we saw his fairly physical duel with Bulq. We only see this after we see the duel with Bulq, so I am not convinced Vos's demons were plaguing him during the duel. Regarding Dark Rage, it's not a certainty, but then, you can see the way in which Vos screams as he duels which may be a reflection of Dark Rage. Certainly, it is entirely as valid as Vos being hindered mid-duel before the illustrations of his inner demon had yet to take place. There is an instant where Dooku claims "all is red", which is a very common depiction of anger, and in the same scan, you see Vos absolutely screaming, which seemingly signifies Dark Rage, if anything.
3. I misspoke before when I referenced Bulq fighting "defensively", for lack of better wording, but I meant in a less than typically efficient manner. To be honest, the maneuvers he displayed in the fight hardly seemed like Form VII to me.
Both fighting aggressively
I'm not sure how this can be interpreted as both being aggressive. It could have been one being aggressive and the other defending - and we have no idea who the aggressor is. We'll dismiss this for now.
Bulq stating his intention to kill Bulq while lunging downard at him with an aggressive strike.
No, Bulq told Quin that he would die, not that Bulq would kill him. Perhaps the two are synonymous, perhaps not. All Bulq really did was told Vos to admit the truth before he died.
Also, Bulq stated his intention to kill himself? Interesting motive for a Dark Jedi.
Khaleen expressing her concern that Bulq is going to kill Vos if he does not move.
Khaleen had no idea how the fight was progressing - she probably couldn't see even see the fight, she likely just assumed the blurs of motion would amount to lethal intent? She didn't even know what Tholme was doing when he connected with Aayla - she thought he died.
Bulq preparing to strike Vos down.
Again, this was something I already admitted to - and it happened at the end.
The comic then cuts back to Vos vs Bulq, starting with the second scan I posted with Bulq lunging for Vos. Meaning during the time period where Secura had a reasonably long conversation with the Morgukai and then fought him, Vos at least did enough to contend with Bulq and not lose the duel, get disarmed ect, and potentially fought evenly with him there like he did in previous panels. And this was without any help from anyone or any circumstance. This was an aggressive and arguably lethal Sora Bulq, that Vos held his own against. Even if you discredit the rest of the fight, this portion of it is void of any circumstance and can therefore be used as a feat irrefutably.
There was a scan where Bulq explicitly stated he would kill Vos, but only if Vos refused the dark side. Whilst my wording was poor beforehand, I'd like to rephrase it and say Bulq's primary goal was not to kill Vos, but to lure him into the dark side which he believed Vos was already lost to - and his secondary goal was to kill Vos if he plainly rejected the darkness, which I'm not entirely convinced of since you see him screaming and raging which is more tantamount to giving into the dark side to amp himself than anything else.
In any case, my argument is that Vos was not under favourable circumstances, that Bulq wasn't holding back at the start of the fight, and later on fully intended to kill him, and that this is a feat which should put Vos above Leia in dueling skill.
I'd argue that if there were any circumstances (which there likely were), they'd be in Vos's favor moreso than Bulq's. Also, is this feat really above Leia in dueling skill? Bulq's mastery showings and accolades are good (although the accolade has been deemed outdated before, which it could be), and his capacity to beat Tholme fairly easily is good, but then, Tholme was unimpressive - very unimpressive, to be frank. He lost to two Morgukai, was seemingly losing to Vos or at least was only a rough equal at best, got stomped by Dooku, etc - in fact, Sora himself got stomped by Dooku. Sora's performance against Mace is good, but I would argue this is similar to Obi-Wan vs Anakin - that the two had been masters of Form VII, and so would have known each other's fighting styles, appropriate counters and approaches etc. as well as the back of their hands - would allow him to duel Mace on a much more even footing than if it were a contest of pure skill. So really, where Bulq lies is interesting. I'd argue that Leia beating Alema Rar whilst still a Jedi-in-training rivals Vos's showings. Alema is better than Tholme for sure - by quite a noticeable margin, in fact.
On another quick note before I move on: I do agree about the accolade thing.
Alright.
Regarding the first fight with Mace, I agree. The comic itself said Mace was fighting defensively - not really something that can be juxtaposed with Vaapad.
Vos then agrees that he will no longer hold back on him. He strikes Windu with a Vaapad maneuver which causes Windu noticeably more difficulty to defend from than previous blows in the fight. Windu then ends the fight through a Force push.
This was the only one thing where Windu was strained, and likely because he was surprised at Vos knowing Vaapad, which he wasn't meant to know.
What can we take away from this? That there were several factors hindering Vos' overall performance against Windu, which allowed Windu to gain the advantage while holding back (although Vos did trade multiple strikes with Windu throughout the fight and wasn't stomped by any means). Then things briefly even up when Vos stops holding back, and the fight ends prematurely. Based on this, I think it is safe to say that Vos would do much better if he wasn't holding back his anger or aggression, was in-practice, and in his prime. You know, like against Bulq?
Anyway, my overall point at this point in time is that without the circumstances in both of these fights, Vos would be able to do somewhat better against Windu and Bulq even if they were not holding back, and while he would not defeat them, he would do enough to hold his own. And without these circumstances, he should be able to defeat Leia in a lightsaber duel.
You're addressing the anti-Vos circumstances, but you don't recognize Mace holding back. Just look at some of the scans you posted yourself:
Who in the world would give their back to an opponent? Nobody, unless they were confident they were much more skilful. Mace casually blocked a blow from Vos whilst entirely turned away, and was still able to comment on Vos's flaws, and we see Vos sweating, whereas Mace's maneuver was obviously effortless and he blocked Vos's attack without even looking at him.
So no, this fight is not really valid. Mace was clearly holding back tremendously during this fight, between endlessly lecturing Vos about his flaws and effortlessly blocking Vos's attacks, even whilst turned away and giving up his back. You might also notice Mace himself never once attacked with his blade - once with the hilt, but that was, as I said, because the harm would be superficial as compared to the blade hitting Quin.
Really, this fight is not indicative of anything at all. Yes, Vos was hardly in his prime - and Mace hardly tried. We have no idea how a realistic fight would go.
Addressing Dooku's fight with Vos now:
Dooku initiates the duel.
Either they clash blades or Dooku is just approaching Vos at this point. The art makes it hard to tell.
Vos and Dooku continue dueling although it's not clear if they have clashed sabers at this point. Still, neither has an obvious advantage.
Nothing really happens here - so we might as well say they were just readying to clash blades.
Dooku shows some level of strain as he clashes blades with Vos.
LOL @ this. Dooku is strained because you can see him gritting his teeth? That could have just as easily been him opening his mouth to talk - and even if he was grimacing, we might as well say Yoda had difficulty manipulating the X-Wing on Dagobah because of his expression, despite the novel stating it was effortless. We might as well say Yoda in AotC was clearly strained to manipulate the boulders that Dooku collapsed on him, or he was strained to move the collapsing crane because of his grimacing expressions. Not even close. Dooku never grimaced when he fought Anakin in RotS, despite Anakin using a more strength-based form and being significantly faster, stronger and more skilful than Vos - he was clearly described in the novel as forcing Dooku back and to his limits - and even in the film, when he drove Dooku back, we never saw Dooku grimacing. I guess that just means Dooku had no trouble with the Force Rage-amped Anakin that cut his hands off a few seconds later at all.
I could similarly grimace whilst typing out these words. I guess that means I'm strained to press the individual keys down.
What can we take away from this fight? That Vos going all out, without circumstances hindering or aiding him (and before his prime) was able to engage in a short duel with Dooku, where neither had an obvious advantage and Dooku did not appear to be having an easy time. This coincides with my point that Vos, after some improvement and a better mindset, would have faired better against Mace Windu in that sparring match, and Kolar in their fight.
No, like the spar with Mace, this is conclusive of absolutely nothing. They clashed blades once and only once, and your entire argument rests on Dooku being strained because he showed teeth. How in the world does that make sense? This fight means absolutely nothing. Dooku never once attacked Vos with a blade, he only defended with his blade, and blocked the one attack that was ever made in the entirety of the fight.
And, well, if we want to take it a step further, I could use an argument like this:
However, even if you do regard Dooku as his superior (which I'm not too sure of, since he did have to fall back on the Force to beat him, which may be an indication of being unable to do so with a blade, or at least not conveniently), he is very close to Dooku's level.
An excerpt from ShootingNova, with a few words changed here and there.
Since Dooku has used the Force to gain an advantage over Vos in duels twice where neither had a glaring advantage, although one was the clear aggressor (much like Vos vs Secura), I don't see how you can disagree with me if we were to use your logic.
And since Ventress attacked Yoda, the latter of whom only used the Force to beat Ventress, we might as well say Ventress is a better duelist than Yoda is. Your ability to cherry-pick isolated sections of my posts and take them out of context is noted, but how about common sense? Dooku's dueling feats vastly outstrip Vos's. The end. There's really no need for selective quoting just to make me look hypocritical.
Dooku never required the Force to beat Vos. He could have just as easily beaten Vos with a blade, but he chose not to. Nothing really shows any effort on Dooku's part as with Mace's fight, and you're reaching considerably if you think this means Vos could contend with Dooku or Mace. Again, all Dooku did was parry the one stroke that was ever thrown in the fight, and then he deactivated his lightsaber and ragdolled Vos.
Now, another part of your argument was that Dooku should be able to stomp Vos because he "stomped" "Vos-class characters", aka Tholme and Bulq (Bulq still being a Jedi, before his additional training with Dooku and before he had shown the ability to duel evenly with Windu). Let's take a look at that fight.
Actually, you're stretching if you assume Bulq still being a Jedi or shortly being before his fight with Windu has anything to do with... anything, at all. Dooku was just as skilful as a Sith as he was as a Jedi, since he had nothing more to learn from the Sith in respects to dueling. He only had anything to learn from the Sith in respects to the Force. Dooku has nothing to teach Bulq in combat. Bulq mastered all the forms already.
At first glance you would say "well Vos dueled evenly with Tholme but Dooku stomped Tholme, so Dooku should stomp Vos" Sound logic, no? No!
This duel in particular took place only a few months after Geonosis - almost exactly the same time as Vos' duel with Mace Windu. As we can see here, at this particular moment in time, Vos and Tholme are not capable of contending with the likes of Windu and Dooku. Then we fast forward to when Vos and Tholme duel to a premature end, with neither one really being declared better. How at this point can you show that Vos is not only better than equal to Tholme, but capable of contending with the likes of Windu and Dooku where Tholme can't?
Ladies and gents, I present to you..
1. No, that's not my logic.
2. The duel took place immediately after Geonosis, but the time really has little to say. Tholme never had the capacity to contend with Windu or Dooku, which is why he lost to Sora Bulq within one or two pages.
3. Vos is better than Tholme, only that his capacity to beat Tholme easily was not apparent. He can beat Tholme, that much is apparent (refer to Tholme losing to two Morgukai, where Vos fights the two and takes down one whilst injured), but his capacity to do so with the same level of ease that Bulq defeated Tholme with is not there.
And before you say "Bulq was trying to kill Tholme but not Vos, that's why Vos held his own" - not true. If Bulq could have so easily replicated this type of victory over someone supposedly close to equal to Tholme, he could have done it without making extensive use of superior Force power, and he still could have Vos in the same position, just alive. Yet, he had no such success with Vos, even with his Force power advantage. I mean, it took a significantly longer period of time for Bulq to get Vos on the ground (which only happened through a telekinetic attack, not a physical one) and he didn't even land a physical blow on Vos. I find it hard to see Vos and Tholme as equals at this point, seeing as Vos has done considerably better against common foes.
Vos is not equal to Tholme, but not far ahead of him.
Not to mention it's evident that Vos did not wish to kill Tholme anyway, seeing as he set Tholme up to be defenceless just so he could propose an offer.
And Dooku knocked out Sora Bulq/took out Tholme's eye just to propose an offer as well.
That hardly means they weren't trying.
Now credit where credit is due, they did fight evenly and Vos was obviously aggressive and not holding back too much in this fight, but I would still argue the point that he put more into his fight with Bulq than against Tholme, based on what I posted above and the fact it is his former Master.
I'd say he gave it his all against Bulq, not sure about Tholme - he could have been trying to his best, but then, he could have been otherwise.
So, I've covered Vos' fight with Sora Bulq, his fights with Windu-class characters, and Tholme's fights and why he isn't equal to Vos. Now here is my verdict on Vos' skill overall as a duelist.
I know Tholme isn't equal to Vos, but he isn't that far behind. Vos never beat Tholme as quickly as Bulq did, which is proof of how Bulq is superior.
Also, using the same logic you attempted to use on me earlier in your post with Dooku and Vos, Vos's usage of cortosis to beat Tholme might be proof of how he couldn't beat Tholme with a blade, but we know he can.
He should be skilled enough to pose someone like Mace Windu or Dooku a challenge for something like three to five exchanges before losing the duel. He should have enough skill to challenge someone of Kenobi's class but still, wouldn't defeat them or ever gain any advantage. And he should be a skilled enough duelist to be proclaimed marginally more skilled than Leia in lightsaber combat, which is most important of all in this thread.
LOL. He can pose a challenge to Dooku because their blades clashed once and Dooku showed teeth whilst blocking Vos's one attack? He can pose a challenge to Mace because Mace was fought him for multiple pages (in spite of clearly not trying at all)? Not even remotely true. The two would stomp Vos. Mace is an equal to Dooku, whom has very much proven is capacity to be leagues ahead of Quin. Even if you take Quin for being an equal to Sora Bulq, of which I am not even entirely convinced of, Dooku already stomped Bulq. Nothing indicates Bulq improved afterwards - he fought few battles, and he had nothing to learn from the Sith with respects to dueling.
Vos's showings are not really above Leia's at all.
Force Power
After reviewing Leia's feat of barely holding together the Millennium Falcon with telekinesis, I'm willing to proclaim her as marginally more powerful than Vos. However, it is my view (and yours apparently), that Vos has what it takes to circumvent greater power, as seen in his fights against Volfe Karkko.
So beating Karkko is mostly evident of one thing: that Vos can circumvent greater power.
A wise man.
In the event Leia does attempt to press her power advantage (however marginal it may be), Vos should be able to take it, power through and close the gap between them, making this fight a physical one, which is where Vos' victory lies.
Leia should be noticeably more powerful than Vos, not just marginally. Telekinesis is one of her weakest displayed areas - her showings in other areas, such as TP, where she outstrips Vos by a considerable, if not vast margin, should indicate that she is ahead of him by a noticeable degree in respects to overall power - not exponentially, but still noticeably.
If you're referencing being telekinetically more powerful, I'd still afford her a slightly greater edge over Vos than just "marginally superior".
Regarding Vos circumventing it - I said Vos can circumvent power, not that he will. He can, but not every time. There will be times where power will play a part - Vos circumvented power against Karkko because Karkko himself has absolutely no skill showings. Against somebody who did have more skill, such as Sora Bulq, Vos could not circumvent Bulq's power edge, and against Dooku, Vos was absolutely stomped. Leia has skill, speed and versatility in addition to her power. It will not be a rehash of Vos's fight with Karkko.
Martial Arts
I think here it is fair to say that both Vos and Leia are capable hand-to-hand fighters. At this point in time, I would argue that Vos being IMO somewhat stronger and more durable, combined with the acrobatic leverage he puts on his physical blows, should have the upper hand when it comes to landing and receiving physical blows in terms of damage inflicted and received, although this advantage is still only marginal.
This is really negligible. Vos hasn't really exploited this in fights against other Force-users and it wouldn't really mean much in a fight.
Leia's Blaster
I'm going to put it out there that it won't have very much bearing on the fight for a few reasons.
As I've shown, Vos is more than capable of perceiving, deflecting and dodging blaster fire.
Vos' precognition, as I've shown, let's him know when an opponent thinks about firing their blaster before they do it, therefore he should be able to pre-emptively avoid her blaster fire.
Leia has not tagged anyone as agile or acrobatic as Vos, and her blaster becomes somewhat of a liability once Vos closes the gap, since a shot could be redirected back at her.
I just haven't seen enough of Leia's blaster-lightsaber related feats to suggest she can effectively use her blaster to gain wins over Vos. It's also worth noting that Vos can possibly throw Leia's aim off in this setting by throwing objects at her telekinetically, like he did against Aayla Secura. He is also very proficient in Saber throw, so it's not like he is out of projectiles himself. A quick saber throw coupled with an acrobatic advance could give him the opening he needs to draw Leia's fire away and then close the gap.
1. He does, but he has never been shown to be skilful at both blaster deflection and lightsaber combat at once.
2. Sure, but that was only from fodder who had blasters in their hands. Leia also has precognition and clairvoyance, and her Force senses are more developed than Vos's. She could use the Force to predict where Vos would dodge, and use a combination of her lightsaber and blaster accordingly. Also, Leia's vastly faster than any of the shooters Vos has faced.
3. She won't use her blaster at close range. She never has. I'm also not sure she would be willing to take out her blaster every round, but it could be helpful in the rounds where it does get taken out.
Most of your points only address Leia's blaster, not also with her lightsaber. Whilst its true Vos doesn't have much issue with blasters, you're neglecting to mention that Leia also has the same Force senses as Vos, to an even greater degree, and she might be able to predict his movements with such, on top of already being faster than Quin. Leia has at least used her blaster against other Force users mid-duel - Vos has never encountered one from a Force user mid-duel, so he would be surprised which might allow Leia to get the edge. It won't be as easy to avoid her blaster fire; certainly not with her lightsaber slashing at him at the same time as well.
And I actually don't believe Saber Throw would be in his best interests here. He would deprive himself of his weapon, which would lower his defenses and allow Leia to shoot him whilst blocking his lightsaber with her own.
My view is that Vos is a better duelist by a noticeable but not massive extent, while Leia is more tactically capable and more powerful (although not by much. I mean, it's not combat-related entirely, but Vos showed a lot of intelligence when playing as a double agent for Dooku and the Jedi, for example, when he used Rancisis' battle meditations to garner his forces the advantage in the battle against the CIS, while he used it as a gateway to get closer to Dooku and Bulq). However I'd say dueling skill is more pertinent here. Then there is the fact that when the time comes when they both trade blows martially, Vos is coming off better through his strength and durability. And finally, Vos has the means to avoid and offset Leia's aim with a blaster, to the point that it becomes a bit of a liability in close quarters. There is a reason the Jedi don't use blasters - they're easily avoided by other capable Jedi.
I am more leaning towards a 5/10, however I don't see it as out of the question that Vos could conceivably obtain a 6/10 through his dueling skill, should you choose to interpret him it that way.
At this point I think I've said all there is to be said on this fight from my viewpoint, but if there's anything new to discuss in your reply I'll certainly make a response. Although I'm somewhat happy with this as a closing post. In any case it's been a good platform for me to express my views on Vos as a duelist, and I've been enjoying the debate. So, as usual, I look forward to your reply Nova.
In my opinion, Vos is not a better duelist. The showings with Mace and Dooku don't indicate anything, really, and the showing with Bulq is a mixed showing. Leia's slight edge against Alema Rar as a Jedi apprentice should rival Vos's showings. Alema Rar is a capable combatant who has fared well enough against varying Jedi, as well as Vong warriors, whom typically fare well against other Jedi themselves - including Corran Horn, Kyle Katarn, Jacen Solo, Kyp Durron, Mara Jade, etc - duelists of Vos's class. Mara is probably at least as skilful as Vos, and Kyle and Kyp are also as skilful as Quin is. Jacen is more skilful than Vos is. So Vos warriors are hardly slouches, and Alema's performances against them is impressive. In fact, Alema did well against and surprised Mara Jade as well, and Mara is about skilled as Vos, between fighting quite well against Vong warriors, and being remarked by Corran Horn to be his superior whilst they were sparring. Leia's ability to hold a slim edge over her, whilst only a Jedi apprentice, in my book, should suffice to match Vos's skill feats, perhaps even affording a miniature edge over him, but I don't want to push it so I'll call them equals for now.
Also, if you want quotes for Alema's skill feats, and for Mara's etc, I can provide them, but at the moment I'd prefer not to because we're already clogging up the thread with walls of text.
Leia does have greater speed to match Vos's greater agility, and can match him in a duel. Martial abilities should be negligible, to be honest. Now, even if you believe Quin is the more skilful duelist, which I disagree with, I'd argue that her tactical abilities, noticeably superior power, and blaster should be sufficient to compensate for that, not to mention her raw speed transcends Vos's by a noticeable degree (speed tends to be more pertinent than agility in most fights, and Quinlan doesn't exploit his agility against other Force users very much anyway). So really, the worst scenario should at least present a stalemate for the two.
But again, I am of the belief Leia is a match for Quinlan Vos, on top of being faster, more powerful, more tactically efficient, and more capable of surprising her opponent (via her blaster). Vos is more agile and physically stronger (not sure if he's necessarily more resilient, Leia's mental resilience is certainly superior to his, and her physical resilience shouldn't be far behind), but I don't think he would be able to get a majority via those. Leia gets 5-6/10 for me.
I'm just about done here. If you want voting, you can start it if you wish, or you can make another response and I'll respond to that one.
@dccomicsrule2011: ikr? i normally follow this, but afterwards after both of them giving out their reasons as to who and why their person would win i stopped i mean i skimmed but holy smokes so many walls XD
I'm just about done here. If you want voting, you can start it if you wish, or you can make another response and I'll respond to that one.
Same here. I think we've both made a fair case, and this CaV has actually gone a little better than our previous ones IMO, in terms of debate quality. I'll send it up to votes.
@shootingnova: I definitely would've given it to Quinlan in the beginning(only cause of personal preference) but I totally agree with literally 99% of everything you have said, especially the outcome.
And I liked the jab at the end about Nova being 3-0 against me. He's been debating Star Wars for two years and is far more experienced and knowledgeable than me. I've only been into the EU in any capacity for a couple of months, and I only debate for fun. And you couldn't exactly do any better, if as well to any capacity. I'm actually getting tired of whirlwind taking any opportunity that comes his way to bash me in debates where it isn't called for in the slightest.
@i_like_swords: What the hell man? Why are you getting so defensive? I never made an agressive nor offensive remark towards you in the slightest. None of what I said was tripe, I was giving an unbiased and to my best ability analysis of the debate.
If anything my bias in fight outside this CaV would be in favor of Vos because I like him better and I believe he even approaches Kenobi and rivals Katarn, in skill and I don't feel the same way about Lei. However, I felt, Nova performed better in elaborating why Lei takes the advantages, and you failed to do so because you relied to heavily on Vos' circumstantial showings against Dooku and Mace and then wrote off him getting stomped by Kolar as inconsistent and then you ran away from that argument in the latter of the debate.
And I like how you only acknowledge the joke, I made about Nova being 3-0(which is my own recordings not you or Nova's). I also admitted that no one was taking score and that saying so was my misbegotten attempt at humor while trying stirring a future by debate between you and Nova(Dooku vs Maul) because I find you guys to be very impressive and enjoyable debaters.
I also apologized in that same paragraph if either one of you were took offense. No need for the hostility and I don't believe it was intentionally provoked
@whirlwind_33: I'm not getting defensive. I'm just sick of debating against you or hearing from you in any debate in general at this point. You just spent your entire analysis misinterpreting the argument I put forth while wanking the hell out of Nova, took several subtle jabs at me, and have a history of getting seriously overagressive/insulting with me. For example, my argument towards the end of the debate wasn't that Kolar stomping Vos was inconsistent. After rethinking Vos' overall showings and discussing it with Nova, I came to the conclusion that Vos would not be stomped by Kolar in his prime, seeing as he improved as a duelist considerably after that (by Dooku's own admission, and by his ability to duel on even terms with someone like Sora Bulq for a decent amount of time). But instead of paying attention to that part of my argument you claimed I "ran away from the debate", which is a completely disrespectful way to phrase it and also entirely inaccurate.
I was clearly the butt of the "joke", and it's just another example of you trying to get your sly digs in against me where you can. You constantly do it, and it's pathetic. Every time you've attempted to discredit me or insult me in previous debates I've shut down your argument and you've failed to respond. Yet as soon as Nova or someone else makes a potentially agreeable argument against me you jump right on the bandwagon, wank off the other debater and start throwing drivel around about me "running away from this", "misinterpreting that". I mean it's more than clear in your analysis that the main focus was to discredit me, and whatever arguments I put out. I didn't see one good point of my debate highlighted.
@i_like_swords: And you couldn't exactly do any better, if as well to any capacity. I'm actually getting tired of whirlwind taking any opportunity that comes his way to bash me in debates where it isn't called for in the slightest.
Was supposed to be some type of insult? I could care less of how I perform against Nova or how you would expect to perform. Evidently I'm not a scrub or whatever low rated skill debater you're implying I am. If you or Nova never saw me as a worthy debater or at least some type of challenge then for 1) Why did you accept my challenge in a 2v2 CaV? and 2) Why has Nova agreed to be on my team in a CaV against JXM and DC. and why have there been countless times when I've argued and provided impressive showings and arguments in my own right; that many notable users in regards to Star Wars have have debated and conceded to, and same applies for me doing so their arguments/analysis as well.
My credibility as a debater does not need validation from you or anybody(SN, JXM, DC included) and if you question my skill or my opinion then fine, I don't care. I know what I am, I know what I can do and only me.
And if you think for one second that I actually care that much go out of my to intentionally bash you, then you think way too highly of yourself bro.
I know I get frustrated and take things a bit to aggressively on these forums out of frustration and boredom(mainly due to stuff going on with me IRL), but this site is not my life. I come here to have just as much fun as anyone else because I too just came on this site almost a year ago after observing it for a long time, When I read how debaters on this site displayed so much skill and knowledge on these forums in comparison to trash forums like YouTube, it inspired and taught me more about Star Wars and comics then I ever dreamed to know. It taught me a knew found respect for the mysthos and users like @ShootingNova, @JediXman, @Silver2467 and @Dccomicsrules2011, @Static Shock, @Wolverine08 @Godspawn and even @I_like_swords(you) and have inspired me to want to learn more and join in on the discussion.
I have a life outside this site, but this is a part of my life/hobbies, where I come to enjoy the fictional and yet fantastical world of Comics and Star Wars. And if you can't it accept then so be it.
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