CAV ILS (Maul&Savage) vs Pen/Beezle (Revan/Satele)

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i_likes_swords will be representing the middle two. Penderor and Beezlebub will be representing the two beside them on each side.
i_likes_swords will be representing the middle two. Penderor and Beezlebub will be representing the two beside them on each side.

Rules

  • Satele and Revan at their respective primes, no amps, power ups or additional gear.
  • Maul is current, Savage is pre-death.
  • Maul and Savage's prosthetics can't get f*cked with by Sith lightning or anything else. Yeah, deal with it.
  • Teams have no prior knowledge on each other. Revan and Satele know they're related.
  • Standard lightsaber set up for everyone.
  • In character, morals on.
  • Fight to the death, knockout or incapacitation

Location

Teams start at opposite sides
Teams start at opposite sides

Rules For Viewers

  • Don't interrupt the debate by posting your own opinion on the fight, or by posting videos, scans or quotes. Keep that all to yourself until the end, or if you want, PM us with it.
  • Please try to keep off-topic chit chat to a minimum, as to avoid clogging the thread.
  • When casting your vote, do not let personal bias or your own knowledge/opinion on the fight determine who you vote for. You vote based entirely on what we, the debaters, have said in this thread. So if you think Revan wins because he did ______, but Beezle/Pen didn't post ______, then you can't really vote for them based on that.
  • When voting, drop a little reason why so we know you read the debate.

Now, let's begin!

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dondave

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Should be good

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Whirlwind_33

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Should be good.

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Fodder76

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#5  Edited By Fodder76

@i_like_swords: It's perfect. I'll start us off.

Satele Shan Grandmaster of the Jedi Order was a powerful force user and a skilled blademaster. She was the first Jedi in over a thousand years to face a Sith and as a Apprentice was able to fend off attacks from both an apprenticed Malgus and a Sith Master. She held her own surprisingly well and showed her skill in Lightsaber combat by being able to keep up with both Sith. This is an impressive feat as she was only an apprentice at the time and it also shows that she was able to deal with physically powerful and aggressive opponents which puts her in a good position against an opponent like Maul or Savage.

In her second encounter with Malgus they had both ascended from apprentice hood to full knight hood and in Malgus's case mastery. Malgus was in his prime and as an extremely aggressive and powerful Djem So practioner very few Jedi or Sith could face him in combat. It is even more impressive that Satele had not yet achieved master or ascended to head of the order so she was not yet in her prime when she face Malgus. In this battle Satele demonstrated several advanced force techniques and much skill with a Lightsaber. As she made her way to Malgus she cut down several Sith troopers in the process and though they were nameless and featless it is impressive that Satele managed to kill them without even faltering or slowing down. Along with this Satele demonstrated amazing technique during the battle managed to push Malgus back throughout most of the duel until she was overpowered and lost her own saber. Losing her saber she demonstrated proficiency in the force power Tutaminis as she absorbed Malgus's Lightsaber into her hand. This demonstrated incredible power and is a powerful defensive capability that she could potentially use in a fight against Maul or Savage. She also demonstrated advanced proficiency in Telekinesis when she overwhelmed Malgus's force shields and smashed him into the side of a mountain with a force wave. She continued to use force wave on Malgus as she kept him pinned against the wall and as Malgus struggled forward Satele was able to use a force blast so powerful that she shattered the entire mountain side and severely injured Malgus destroying his jaw.

In other novels she demonstrated her proficiency in shatter point and telekinesis by destroying walls and gates with a simple gesture. She was also able to rewrite the programming of various droids use mind trick create illusions and employ many other advanced force maneuvers and abilities. Throughout the years Satele retained the position of Grand Master she improved her capabilities. She was able to use a variety of advanced force powers to great affect and retained her dueling potency throughout the years. She was a master of Ataru an extremely aggressive and flexible form that employed overwhelming offense in its use.

I believe that in comparison to Maul and Savage her capabilities would go like this.

Force Power: Satele > Maul. Satele > Savage.

Dueling Skill: Satele < Maul. Satele = Savage

Experience: Satele > Maul. Satele > Savage.

Who wins?

Satele vs Maul: Satele 6/10.

Satele vs Savage: Satele 8/10.

Overall Maul is the better duelists and Savage is not as skilled as Satele but is strong and aggressive too bad Satele has dealt with strong and aggressive duelists before and as Malgus was a Djem So practitioner he is actually physically stronger then either Maul or Savage despite their Zabraki heritage. I believe Satele should be able to hold out a long time against Maul and maybe even stalemate Savage but once she started losing or saw herself as being disadvantaged by either she would fall back on her superior force powers and beat either of the Zabrak's.

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Pharoh_Atem

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@dondave said:

Should be good

Should be good.

LOL.

Anyway, I'm rooting for the side with Satele; I can't go against my future fictional wife. :p

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@dccomicsrule2011: @jaken7: Before this goes any further, can you guys both not continue a discussion about DC and Revan. DC, just don't reply to him, for the sake of the thread.

@beezlebub: You're up first, bro.

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JakeN7

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Posted!

Hmm...never seen an intro skip straight to the results, but it's really good otherwise.

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#15  Edited By JakeN7

@jaken7: You're not supposed to do that? Oh crap...

It's usually just more appropriate to let your opponent get his points across first. A lot of CaV's don't even propose results, because it all comes down to voting anyways. You're fine though.

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@beezlebub: Alrighty, I'll reply to you, then Penderor can make his case for Revan, I'll reply to that, then we're back to you. We'll keep it in that order.

and as a Apprentice was able to fend off attacks from both an apprenticed Malgus and a Sith Master. She held her own surprisingly well and showed her skill in Lightsaber combat by being able to keep up with both Sith. This is an impressive feat as she was only an apprentice at the time and it also shows that she was able to deal with physically powerful and aggressive opponents which puts her in a good position against an opponent like Maul or Savage.

Fend off? Shows she can deal with physically powerful opponents? I wouldn't quite put it like that. Maybe even the opposite.

She had a couple of exchanges with Malgus, but then essentially got overpowered, put down with a knee, and was as good as dead. She then left the scene soon after. If anything, this fight shows that she can'tcompete with duelists who are strong, and use martial arts techniques.

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And guess what? Maul is renowned for his physical strength, and is one of the best martial artists in Star Wars, who constantly chains unarmed techniques into his fights. Likewise with Savage, who is stronger than both Malgus and Maul, focuses entirely on strength, and often employs hand-to-hand techniques into his fights. Kinda dug yourself a hole here, man.

Maul Strength and Martial Arts Feats

Doing one handed push ups when he was three years old.

The chime sounded again. Maul stopped running, fell back against the floor, and began doing a series of sit-ups and leg lifts. After several minutes, the chime sounded, and Maul rolled over to do his push up exercises, alternating between one- and two handed push-ups. Several more minutes passed before the chime sounded again, signalling the exercise session's end. Maul collapsed against the floor.

Star Wars: The Wrath of Darth Maul

Shatters the lower spine of a Rodian with a strike.

The fight hadn’t lasted long, and only when the blade-bearer had accidentally bumped into him had Maul glanced up long enough to drive an elbow upward and shatter the Rodian’s lower spine. The guards onboard hadn’t even blinked as the Rodian pitched over sideways, wailing and paralyzed, to the deck, where he lay whimpering for the duration of the trip, gazing up through moist and pleading eyes. It was the only time during the entire trip that Maul had moved.

Maul: Lockdown

Here, during a training exercise with droids who have durasteel armor, Maul is striking and breaking through their armor with ease.

Chain charged, its weapon whirling over its head like the propeller of a gyrocraft. The heavy links lashed toward him. Maul spun on his right foot and shot his left leg out in a powerful side kick, slamming his boot into the droid’s armored chest, stopping it cold.

Maul dropped, hooked his left foot around the back of the droid’s ankle, and pulled as he kicked hard at the droid’s thigh with the other foot. The droid fell backwards, unable to maintain its balance, and hit the floor. Maul sprang up, did a front flip, and came down with both boot heels driving into the droid’s head. The metal skull crunched and collapsed inward. Lights flashed and the hard-shell photoreceptors shattered.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Overpowering Komari Vosa using physical strength in a duel after being shot point blank by a blaster bolt, which would have reduced the strength in Maul's right arm somewhat no matter how hard he tried.

Now he gripped the lightsaber in both arms, forcing his damaged right arm into service and gripping the hilt of his saber with his full strength. It was time for Juyo, the Way of the Vornskr— the last of the Seven Forms. He seized upon it eagerly, allowing himself to be swept up in the chaotic frontal assault of thrusts, slashes, and jabs.

“Maul—” A tremor of new fear pulsed across Vosa’s face, disrupting her composure, as if she’d finally recognized the true ferocity of his purpose. Darting backward into a desperate evasive measure, Vosa whirled one of her blades behind her, hacking loose a massive shelf of surgical instruments from its place on the wall, and with a swing of the hand she used a Force push to fire them at him in a glinting storm of steel. Maul ducked the flying instruments and bobbed back up with a silent snarl. In his mind, the duel was all but over— his opponent was now dragging out the inevitable moment of defeat in a series of small humiliations. By turning to such diversionary tactics, Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

As for Maul's martial arts knowledge and ability? He's a master of Teras Kasi, a purely unarmed combat style designed for non-force sensitives to combat Jedi.

Here, for a quick feat, Maul was a master of "numerous" martial arts at the age of thirteen years old. Thirteen.

Maul nodded. Six years had passed since his arrival on Orsis. Taller and stronger, he still did not know his own age, but based on his observations of similar humanoids, he assumed he was about thirteen years old. Although he was already considered a master of numerous martial arts, he still had difficulty working as part of a team.

Star Wars: The Wrath of Darth Maul

Savage Strength and Martial Arts Feats

Savage is nowhere near the unarmed combatant Maul is. But I'd say he's comparable to/better than Malgus, definitely. Savage does have formal martial arts training (which Malgus doesn't, as far as I know), as he shows here where he legitimately takes it to a more experienced, force enhanced Ventress, before he was transformed or had any force powers. Also note that he was cracking stone with his blows.. without any enhancements or the force.. gives an idea of how strong he becomes aftertransformation.

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Savage shows further martial arts ability here, where every single important blow of the fight was an unarmed attack by Savage.

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As for actual physical strength, I think we can agree Savage is the strongest here by a fair margin. However, if you're unconvinced that the gap in strength between Savage and Satele is very high, here is Savage, while performing a force grip, resisting and flat out overpowering Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously. Anakin is already on par, or stronger than Maul, nevermind Obi Wan as well.

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Along with this Satele demonstrated amazing technique during the battle managed to push Malgus back throughout most of the duel until she was overpowered and lost her own saber.

So we're agreed that, again, Malgus used physical strength to overpower Satele, and as a result, came this . close to killing her? Thanks for showing how much of an advantage Maul and Savage have over her.

Losing her saber she demonstrated proficiency in the force power Tutaminis as she absorbed Malgus's Lightsaber into her hand. This demonstrated incredible power and is a powerful defensive capability that she could potentially use in a fight against Maul or Savage.

Eh.. I don't think it's very likely. It's actually bordering on a plot device that she used it to survive another encounter with Malgus, after being overpowered and disarmed again, where most duelists, even those who have used tutaminis before, would have gone on to die. Also, she didn't actually get out of that situation by using Tutaminis. She was obviously going to be overwhelmed, but Jayce interrupted and tackled Malgus before he could kill Satele. Overall, I don't see this ability popping up in the fight for any reason, and if it does, evidently, it's not going to do much to help.

She also demonstrated advanced proficiency in Telekinesis when she overwhelmed Malgus's force shields and smashed him into the side of a mountain with a force wave. She continued to use force wave on Malgus as she kept him pinned against the wall and as Malgus struggled forward Satele was able to use a force blast so powerful that she shattered the entire mountain side and severely injured Malgus destroying his jaw.

Even though this is more part of your intro, and wasn't directly addressing Maul and Savage, I feel like I should address it right now anyway.

It was impressive.. but it was only impressive to an extent. Malgus had just tanked a point blank thermal detonator. He was clearly quite injured, unfocused and not combat ready when Satele fired her initial blast. Then being blasted into the mountain would have further injured him on impact. What Satele did to the cliff face was impressive, but the fact is she was not going to pull off that kind of force assault on a fresh Malgus who hadn't just been blown up at point blank. And seeing as neither Maul or Savage have been blown up prior to this fight, I don't see this feat being replicated. Especially since Maul has performed a feat to rival what she did, and both him and Savage are not new to dominating force sensitives in the force.

Scans/Gifs:

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Force Power: Satele > Maul. Satele > Savage.

Actually based on what you've said and I've posted so far I'd be prepared to place it somewhere along the lines of..

Maul/Savage => Satele

I mean yeah, she's shown more force powers than Savage (not Maul), but not more usefulones. Which is what I'm going by.

Dueling Skill: Satele < Maul. Satele = Savage

Ha, well, you got the first part right. However.. I question if she's even more skilled than Savage. Oooh, controversial, I know. But really so far you have only shown Satele losing to Malgus - someone with less H2H skill, physical strength, and unless you can prove it, dueling skill than Savage. And here's my proof of Savage's skill:

While dodging blaster bolts and engaging clones, Savage fights on par with Jedi High Council Member Plo Koon, and even manages to rip his mask off, granting him a quick win. But really, the important part is that he fought on par with such a credible duelist, and was even able to utilize the mask-removing tactic.

Now what makes this impressive is that Darth Maul himself has mused that fighting Plo Koon would be a true test of his skill. And Maul is someone who you have already agreed is a better duelist than Satele (by quite a margin, as I'll prove soon). Not to mention Koon has stalemated Ventress (someone Savage got the better of in a duel) and is one of the best duelists in the Jedi order. This feat alone puts Savage ahead in skill at this stage, but I'll throw up the Ventress one for kicks.

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Experience: Satele > Maul. Satele > Savage.

Who wins?

Satele vs Maul: Satele 6/10.

Satele vs Savage: Satele 8/10.

Overall Maul is the better duelists and Savage is not as skilled as Satele but is strong and aggressive too bad Satele has dealt with strong and aggressive duelists before and as Malgus was a Djem So practitioner he is actually physically stronger then either Maul or Savage despite their Zabraki heritage. I believe Satele should be able to hold out a long time against Maul and maybe even stalemate Savage but once she started losing or saw herself as being disadvantaged by either she would fall back on her superior force powers and beat either of the Zabrak's.

Really.. experience? Maul bested Qui Gon Jinn (60+) and Obi Wan (25) simultaneously at the age of 22. Plus experience doesn't contribute anything anyway because it isn't even an indicator of how someone does in a fight. It's basically just a measurement of time and nothing more and you can't prove that experience =/> feats, unless in the feat itself it is stated or shown that ___ won because they had more experience.

Satele isn't taking a majority over Maul based on what you've shown. Maul is the better duelist, has two massive advantages over Satele (martial arts mastery and physical strength) and is even enough in force power for any attempt at a force assault by Satele to be rendered moot anyway. Now if you want to bring up a better feat for Satele that will actually show she can compete with Maul on a physical or skill level, I'll be happy to counter it by dropping even better ones for Maul :)

She isn't getting a majority over Savage at this point either. I've proven he shares the same advantages Maul has, and that he is of a higher skill level to Satele based on what you've mentioned so far. He is also, again, even enough in force combat to suggest he can resist an attempt at a force assault.

Your last paragraph is just false on far too many levels, so I'll just counter it quickly.

  • Satele has done the exact opposite to dealing with strong and aggressive fighters. She has been overwhelmed and defeated by one. One who is even, if not, weakerthan Maul and Savage, a worse martial artist than them, and not as skilled in lightsaber combat. Also, they aren't strong by merit of being Zabraks. Zabraks are known for durability and insane pain tolerance. Maul is strong because since he learned to walk he's been conditioning his strength under the most brutal Sith Lord in galactic history, and Savage is strong through hugeenhancements at the hands of Mother Talzin, which puts him to a higher strength level than even Maul, nevermind Malgus.
  • As I've covered, Malgus isn't stronger than either Maul or Savage.
  • Satele as of now is not holding on for very long against either brother, due to the fact they are proving to be superior in every physical manner, and she is also weakagainst strong, aggressive, martial arts focused enemies like Malgus. Not only do the Zabraks share these traits, but they actually exceedMalgus in them. They should make shorter work of Satele than he did both times.
  • Her advantage in the force is really not even there at this point and is not enough to justify even a slim majority here.
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You're up @penderor let's see if Revan can do better. After I reply to you, we're back to @beezlebub.

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#34  Edited By Penderor

OKEY.

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Proving Revan skill with the combat abilities. He was far more intelligent than either Maul or Savage and probably even smarter than they are together.

30 years old Jedi knight with the few experience and mostly praised for his leadership and tactical abilities than combat skills defeated battle hardened 40+ (?) Mandalore the Ultimate (arguably one of the best H2H and swordsmen of the current galaxy in the single handed combat similar to Maul vs Pre Vizsla except one difference...

Mandalore the Ultimate >>>>>> Pre Vizsla

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Revan was fighting with the Sith Lord empowered by the ancient factory. He was forced to defeat Malak several times. This definitely shows his durability and very good stamina. Defeating above average Jedi Master is not impressive, but beating him over and over again? Hm.

Revan also shows in game that he was able to wield lightsaber staff and dual swords. That means he had to be skilled with the single blade if he could pick some of these advanced weapons.

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The fight is around 6 minutes long.

Four warriors ( 2 Sith Lords) are fighting with one, exhausted and dark side blinded man and they are still not able to stomp him.

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#36  Edited By Penderor

So if I can go preliminary results: Scale with 1 min regular Jedi Knight and 10 max Windu, Dooku tier with saber and the Force.

Revan vs Savage Opress: Revan Lightsaber 5 / 10, Force 6.5 or 7 / 10 while Savage Lightsaber 4.5 / 10 and Force 3.5 or 4 / 10. Winner Revan in 7.5 / 10.

Revan vs Maul: Revan is up and Maul Lightsaber 9 / 10 and 8.5 / 10. Winner Maul in 8 / 10.

So if Revan goes for Savage and Satele for Maul and they are not trading each other dueling partner then Jedi team win. If Maul goes for Revan or he gets him 1v1 in some part of the dueling he might kill him. Really for now it can go eiter way.

Waiting for you guys.

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@penderor:

Proving Revan skill with the combat abilities. He was far more intelligent than either Maul or Savage and probably even smarter than they are together.

Honestly.. Revan's leadership feats against the Mandalorians are entirely ambiguous. Unless you can actually show me a specific example of Revan using tactical ingenuity to win a fight the feat can't be taken on board for more than what it is right now - an ambiguous feat of Revan raising Republic morale.

Not that leading armies is even relevant to a 2v2 lightsaber duel anyway, but Maul actually has a couple of very impressive army-leading feats which are far less ambiguous than Revans. If you aren't going to prove Revans dueling skill, and rely on this argument that because he can lead armies in an ambiguous manner he's now vastly more intelligent than Maul, I'll just shut that argument down as well.

Maul Leading An Army Better Than Revan (which isn't even relevant to the debate, but it's just to appease the expected "Revan is a tactical genius" argument)

So, in the comic Darth Maul - Death Sentence, Maul ends up in a position where standing between him and his target (Bounty Hunter Ja'Boag), is hundreds of armed, armored and thoroughly trained soldiers. Luckily, Maul stumbles upon a small native civilization of primitives who he transforms into a premier fighting force.

I'm not even kidding. These guys are peaceful, primitive, monk-like cavemen who are still throwing spears and using bows and arrows. They have zero formal combat training and next to no actual fighting experience.

Here, Maul begins the training for his army of spear chuckers.

He turns them from peace-time, neutral, monk-like primitives into bloodthirsty and remorseless warriors in an afternoon.

Here is Maul planning out his attack. He chooses the moment to attack that will be most beneficial for his untrained and ill-equipped fighting force. He then instigates a "heart attack" of the civilizations most respected leader, in order to rally his army and prepare them for battle, even though they are so heavily unmatched it's bordering on a suicide job.

Now for the battle itself. Funnily enough, despite the fact Maul doesn't know any of these people, or knowing anything about them. Despite the fact they are using stone-age weaponry against Star Wars-tech armor and blasters. Despite the fact they were a peaceful race with no combat experience going up against battle hardened soldiers. Maul still managed to train them in one afternoon sufficiently enough to conquer incredibly unfavorable odds.

Still sure Revan with his ambiguous "tactical intelligence" is better than Maul? I haven't even touched on the time Maul became Mandalore himself. I'm actually done debating this topic. Leading armies is completely irrelevant to a 2v2 encounter, but just to prevent you from dragging on such an argument, here's Maul doing it better anyway.

30 years old Jedi knight with the few experience and mostly praised for his leadership and tactical abilities than combat skills defeated battle hardened 40+ (?) Mandalore the Ultimate (arguably one of the best H2H and swordsmen of the current galaxy in the single handed combat similar to Maul vs Pre Vizsla except one difference...

Mandalore the Ultimate >>>>>> Pre Vizsla

1. Just saying someones age and that they have lots of experience in no way helps your argument. Experience doesn't count for anything. Quality of experience matters. Revan could spend 90 years fighting fodder and I wouldn't care, because Maul actually has relevant, impressive combat feats that will outstrip all the "years of experience" Revan and Mandalore the Ultimate have.

2. Mandalore the ultimate is largely featless and you will be hard pressed to justify he is better than some of the people Maul has killed without breaking a sweat. Pre Vizsla is hardly Maul's best feat, and even then, Maul beat him solely through physical combat, whereas Vizsla used his entire arsenal of weapons on Maul and still lost.

Maul is better than both Revan and Satele in lightsaber and martial arts combat.

Maul's superior Lightsaber and Martial Arts Skill

Maul has been stated to be one of the most skilled and deadly Sith Warriors in galactic history (thousands of years), as well as one of the most well trained. This is an accolade that already outstrips anything Revan or Satele have under their belt in terms of combat skill.

One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between Jedi Knight and Sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the Battle for Naboo.

As a Sith devotee, Darth Maul drew his power from the dark side of the Force. He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.

The Official Star Wars Fact File #1

By roughly the age of thirteen, Maul had already mastered numerous martial arts.

Maul nodded. Six years had passed since his arrival on Orsis. Taller and stronger, he still did not know his own age, but based on his observations of similar humanoids, he assumed he was about thirteen years old. Although he was already considered a master of numerous martial arts, he still had difficulty working as part of a team.

Star Wars: The Wrath of Darth Maul

Sidious explains that he taught Maul, again, numerous martial arts that were described as exotic and forbidden.

I took inspiration from the Jedi tradition of indoctrinating Force-sensitive infants when I selected one apprentice, whom I named Darth Maul. I took him from his home world, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side.

Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Here are excerpts from his fight with Jedi Master Anoon Bondara, who was stated to be one of the Jedi's best fighters at that time.

The Jedi was obviously a master of the teräs käsi fighting arts, as well, judging by the smooth way he parried and counterattacked . Still, within the first few moments of the engagement, Darth Maul knew that he himself was the superior fighter. He could tell that the Jedi knew it, too, but Maul also knew that it didn’t matter. The Jedi was committed to stopping the Sith, or at the very least slowing him down enough to let the others get away, even if it meant giving his own life to do so.

Maul bared his teeth. He would not lose his quarry again! He doubled his efforts, pressing the attack hard, hammering away at the Twi’lek’s defenses. The Jedi gave ground, but Maul was still unable to slash through his guard.

Darth Maul had seen the grim realization in the eyes of his foe: the knowledge that the Twi’lek could not defeat his adversary. Once defeat was conceded in the mind, its reality was inevitable. It was only a matter of time.

He pressed his attack to an even higher intensity, driving the Jedi back toward his speeder bike, intending to pin him between the dual-bladed lightsaber and the bike. With his movements thus constricted, it would be mere moments before the Twi’lek’s tentacled head was separated from his neck.

But then he saw the desperation in the other’s face suddenly give way to realization, and then to triumph. Quickly, before Maul could intuit what was intended, the Jedi whirled toward the speeder bike, raised his lightsaber— and plunged it to the hilt into the bike’s repulsor drive housing.

Maul realized his suicidal intention, but too late . The superheated energy blade melted with lightning swiftness through the housing and sank into the bike’s power cell core. Maul turned and leapt from the platform, reaching for the dark side, enfolding himself in it even as the power cell exploded, the heat and pressure wave vaporizing the Jedi in a microsecond and then expanding, reaching hungrily for him, as well.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

He had slain Master Bondara, one of the Jedi’s best fighters.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Bondara, despite being one of the best fighters the Jedi had, as well as a combat instructor within the order, and also a Master of the Teras Kasi martial art, was no match for Maul. They both realized that within moments of the fight. So he committed solely to defence, and eventually ended up trying to suicide bomb Maul as his last dying act.

Now, if we want to kick this up a notch, let's talk about the fact Maul has then gone on to beat someone better than Anoon Bondara. Qui Gon Jinn. Qui Gon has been explicitly stated as being better than Anoon. Maul drove him off with a leg injury in their first fight, and in their second fight, Maul defeated him and Obi Wan simultaneously, even though Obi Wan became amped by Force Rage at the end of the duel.

Here are the skill-related excerpts from Maul vs Qui Gon round 1, where Maul is injured.

If an opponent can read you, the fight is over. I don't like that the Jedi was perfectly prepared for my first blow. Within seconds, I throw away my usual combinations and strategies. This Jedi seems to know I will move before I do.

I accelerate my pace, calling on my anger to increase my power. My footwork has never been so brilliant. I use the shifting sand as resistance. My lightness and quickness will defeat this man, with his large body, his heavy movements.

But he is graceful, this Jedi. The sand doesn't seem to hamper him. He is never off balance, no matter where or how I strike.

But I must confess that this Jedi is a challenge. If I leap, he is with me. If I turn, he follows me. He swirls and hums, and several times comes closer than I like.
It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best.

This realization sends more rage pumping into my body. I am angry at myself, but I use the anger to fuel the dark side. I feel the Force come from the Jedi and I send it back to him, showing that I, too, have a connection, and it is stronger than his. I launch a furious counterattack. I feel the Jedi beginning to tire, and triumph rises like a red mist before my eyes. I gain the advantage. I am winning. I will defeat him.

I have been surprised at his skill, but now I am confident of victory. I will savor each moment of this battle.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

After this Qui Gon, of course, leaps onto the ship and escapes. But the point is Maul gained the advantage over Qui Gon and nearly killed him even though he had suffered a leg injury that was slowing him down. Also, the fact Maul within seconds completely changed his fighting style in order to avoid being predictable speaks volumes about his versatility in lightsaber combat. Versatility Revan or Satele haven't even approached showing.

Here is the visual representation of the fight, as well as quotes from a novelization of it.

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Maul advanced toward Qui-Gon and spun, deflecting blows from both Jedi as the fight shifted across the hangar deck. Rapidly spinning his lightsaber, he anticipated their moves with ease. Having expected a greater challenge from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he felt even more disgusted by them.

He kicked Qui Gon in the chest so hard that he knocked the Jedi off his feet. He flipped away from Obi-Wan, flinging his body through the air to land before a doorway that lead to Theed City's power generator. With one hand gripping his lightsaber, he reached out with the Force and seized a large piece of debris from one of the ruined destroyer droids, then launched it at the door's opening mechanism. The mechanism exploded in sparks and the door began to slide open.

Maul spun his lightsaber, deflecting his opponents' strikes as he backed through the open doorway. He launched a high kick that connected with Obi-Wan's jaw. As Obi-Wan fell back and rolled across the floor, Maul backed up, luring Qui-Gon toward the power generator. Obi-Wan got up fast and sprinter to rejoin the fight.

That's it. Come to me.

He was still lying on his back as he saw Qui-Gon leaping from above. The Jedi landed close to him, and Maul had to move fast to block the Jedi's blade. Then Maul was up again, moving backward along the central catwalk. In the distance, beyond Qui-Gon's back, Maul sighted Obi-Wan clinging to the edge of a lower catwalk. Maul realized he didn't want Obi-Wan to fall, because that would deprive him of the pleasure of killing the young Jedi.

Maul leered again at Qui-Gon. You think you're driving me back. You have no idea that I'm in control. You don't know where I'm taking you.

Qui-Gon was unrelenting in his ongoing attack, but Maul parried every blow. Qui-Gon swung at Maul's legs, but the blade swept under his feet as Maul jumped backward. Maul continued moving back, leading Qui-Gon into the hallway.

Then you know how it ends.. Maul kills Qui Gon, then bests Obi-Wan even though he is amped by Force Rage. The important thing to note is that Maul was effortlessly parrying both of their blows, and actually directed the duel to his preferred location, luring Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon to the reactor core. Maul's tactical ability as well as lightsaber skill is obviously on another level than both of these Jedi, and I can also confidently say it's on another level to Revan and Satele's. They have shown nothing to suggest they have an equal amount of combat knowledge, tactical ingenuity, versatility or pure skill. Maul trumps both of them.

And let's not even get onto the fact Maul is stronger, faster and more durable than them to boot.

Revan was fighting with the Sith Lord empowered by the ancient factory. He was forced to defeat Malak several times. This definitely shows his durability and very good stamina. Defeating above average Jedi Master is not impressive, but beating him over and over again? Hm.

Revan also shows in game that he was able to wield lightsaber staff and dual swords. That means he had to be skilled with the single blade if he could pick some of these advanced weapons.

This isn't really all that impressive. You've shown me gameplay mechanics. I don't even know any of Malak's feats. Has he even received the type of accolades Qui-Gon and Anoon Bondara have received? If you can show me some form of canon description or visualization of Revan fighting Malak, and prove to me that this feat surpasses Maul's, then I'll concede. But frankly right now it is not even scraping what I've shown.

That's cute.. "in game" Revan gets to use whatever lightsaber the player picks. In canon Maul has won duels with a single lightsaber as well as a saberstaff. He is also a Master of Jar'Kai, the dual blade lightsaber form. In fact, he has actually noticed an opponent using Jar'Kai before and pointed out how predictable it was as a choice of technique.

Gripping the lightsaber’s hilt, he squared his shoulders and swung again, thrusting his blade at her in a series of perfectly angled slashes. Vosa came back at him on the offense, both blades spinning.

“Jar’Kai,” Maul snarled, deflecting her assault on reflex. “Predictable.”

And while Maul doesn't normally use dual lightsabers, he did in his fight with Sidious, and has been documented as proficient in Niman (the dual wielding lightsaber form) and is a master of Jar'Kai. Again, for everything Revan might be kind of okay at, Maul has mastered to a degree Revan isn't even scratching.

Maul's dueling feats, as well as his ability to adapt his style, pick up on the techniques his opponent is using, effortlessly parry blows from two skilled swordsmen simultaneously, and even deliberately lure opponents to certain locations of his choosing, are all evidence enough to show that he far supersedes Revan.

The fight is around 6 minutes long.

Four warriors ( 2 Sith Lords) are fighting with one, exhausted and dark side blinded man and they are still not able to stomp him.

This is gameplay mechanics. Not a canon visualization of how Revan actually did in this fight. We don't even know the capabilities of the strike team because you haven't shown any canon evidence of their abilities. As far as I'm concerned, this is just an ambiguous representation of Revan's death.

As for Savage, I'll just repost his dueling feats from my above post. They can at least rival, if not exceed Revan's showings.

"Here's my proof of Savage's skill:

While dodging blaster bolts and engaging clones, Savage fights on par with Jedi High Council Member Plo Koon, and even manages to rip his mask off, granting him a quick win. But really, the important part is that he fought on par with such a credible duelist, and was even able to utilize the mask-removing tactic.

Now what makes this impressive is that Darth Maul himself has mused that fighting Plo Koon would be a true test of his skill. And Maul is someone who is already a better duelist than Revan (by quite a margin, as I've already shown). Not to mention Koon has stalemated Ventress (someone Savage got the better of in a duel) and is one of the best duelists in the Jedi order. This feat alone puts Savage ahead in skill at this stage, but I'll throw up the Ventress one for kicks.

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So if I can go preliminary results: Scale with 1 min regular Jedi Knight and 10 max Windu, Dooku tier with saber and the Force.

Revan vs Savage Opress: Revan Lightsaber 5 / 10, Force 6.5 or 7 / 10 while Savage Lightsaber 4.5 / 10 and Force 3.5 or 4 / 10. Winner Revan in 7.5 / 10.

Eh, I don't really like your rating system because it's very vague. But let me make it more simple for you.

Dueling Skill: Savage >>> Revan based on what has been shown so far

Force: Savage > Revan considering you haven't even touched on Revan's force feats yet. I posted Savage's in my first post. Go compare.

Savage > Revan

Revan vs Maul: Revan is up and Maul Lightsaber 9 / 10 and 8.5 / 10. Winner Maul in 8 / 10.

So if Revan goes for Savage and Satele for Maul and they are not trading each other dueling partner then Jedi team win. If Maul goes for Revan or he gets him 1v1 in some part of the dueling he might kill him. Really for now it can go eiter way.

Better make that a 10/10 majority for Maul considering you have a lot of work to do in the way of countering why Maul wouldn't treat fighting Revan like a casual sparring match. Seriously.

If Revan goes for Savage he still has his work cut out for him, but even then, Maul will make short work of Satele Shan considering he's better than her in every way physically, is a better lightsaber duelist, and Satele is extremely vulnerable to opponents who are strong and use martial arts techniques, which is exactly what Maul and Savage are, to an even higher degree to Malgus.

And frankly, Revan isn't much more useful. All the feats you posted are entirely ambiguous, represented by non-canon gameplay mechanics and even then aren't scraping what Maul and Savage have done.

Sorry, but you have a lot to prove here. Gameplay mechanics and ambiguous statements of tactical ability are not going to cut it.

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Fodder76

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#38  Edited By Fodder76

@i_like_swords: Responded. You're up man! :P

and as a Apprentice was able to fend off attacks from both an apprenticed Malgus and a Sith Master. She held her own surprisingly well and showed her skill in Lightsaber combat by being able to keep up with both Sith. This is an impressive feat as she was only an apprentice at the time and it also shows that she was able to deal with physically powerful and aggressive opponents which puts her in a good position against an opponent like Maul or Savage.

Fend off? Shows she can deal with physically powerful opponents? I wouldn't quite put it like that. Maybe even the opposite.

She had a couple of exchanges with Malgus, but then essentially got overpowered, put down with a knee, and was as good as dead. She then left the scene soon after. If anything, this fight shows that she can'tcompete with duelists who are strong, and use martial arts techniques.

At the time of her first duel with Malgus she was only an apprentice and managed to hold her own along with her master for quite some time and in her next fight with Malgus she managed to keep up with him and contend with him throughout the entirety of the duel. She wasn't even close to being in her prime there and despite having a smaller build and having an obvious strength disadvantage she managed to keep pace with him throughout the entire fight before defeating him with her superior force powers. As she grew older she only became more experienced, powerful and skilled and I feel confident that if she had met Malgus at any point during her period as Grand Master she could have defeated him in a Lightsaber duel quite handily. This also shows that she has little to no trouble against opponents who are physically more powerful such as Maul and Savage. While it is true that they are physically strong it is debatable if they are even on the same strength level as Malgus as he was a Djem So practioner and Maul practiced Juyo and Savage had an undefined form. So what we have here is a far from prime Satele managing to hold her own against a physically powerful Djem So practioner in their prime. With Satele not only going against possibly physically weaker opponents then Malgus but also being in her prime where she is stronger faster and more skilled I will now change my opinion to her besting Savage in a Lightsaber duel and managing to hold her own against Maul.

And guess what? Maul is renowned for his physical strength, and is one of the best martial artists in Star Wars, who constantly chains unarmed techniques into his fights. Likewise with Savage, who is stronger than both Malgus and Maul, focuses entirely on strength, and often employs hand-to-hand techniques into his fights. Kinda dug yourself a hole here, man.

Maul is renowned for his aggressive style and for overwhelming offense not necessarily his physical strength or martial skill. Savage is a brute its true but with hardly any skill at all I have not often if ever seen Savage use unarmed combat so scans of that would be nice. I don't think I did. Lol.

Maul Strength and Martial Arts Feats

Doing one handed push ups when he was three years old.

The chime sounded again. Maul stopped running, fell back against the floor, and began doing a series of sit-ups and leg lifts. After several minutes, the chime sounded, and Maul rolled over to do his push up exercises, alternating between one- and two handed push-ups. Several more minutes passed before the chime sounded again, signalling the exercise session's end. Maul collapsed against the floor.

Star Wars: The Wrath of Darth Maul

Shatters the lower spine of a Rodian with a strike.

The fight hadn’t lasted long, and only when the blade-bearer had accidentally bumped into him had Maul glanced up long enough to drive an elbow upward and shatter the Rodian’s lower spine. The guards onboard hadn’t even blinked as the Rodian pitched over sideways, wailing and paralyzed, to the deck, where he lay whimpering for the duration of the trip, gazing up through moist and pleading eyes. It was the only time during the entire trip that Maul had moved.

Maul: Lockdown

Here, during a training exercise with droids who have durasteel armor, Maul is striking and breaking through their armor with ease.

Chain charged, its weapon whirling over its head like the propeller of a gyrocraft. The heavy links lashed toward him. Maul spun on his right foot and shot his left leg out in a powerful side kick, slamming his boot into the droid’s armored chest, stopping it cold.

Maul dropped, hooked his left foot around the back of the droid’s ankle, and pulled as he kicked hard at the droid’s thigh with the other foot. The droid fell backwards, unable to maintain its balance, and hit the floor. Maul sprang up, did a front flip, and came down with both boot heels driving into the droid’s head. The metal skull crunched and collapsed inward. Lights flashed and the hard-shell photoreceptors shattered.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Overpowering Komari Vosa using physical strength in a duel after being shot point blank by a blaster bolt, which would have reduced the strength in Maul's right arm somewhat no matter how hard he tried.

Now he gripped the lightsaber in both arms, forcing his damaged right arm into service and gripping the hilt of his saber with his full strength. It was time for Juyo, the Way of the Vornskr— the last of the Seven Forms. He seized upon it eagerly, allowing himself to be swept up in the chaotic frontal assault of thrusts, slashes, and jabs.

“Maul—” A tremor of new fear pulsed across Vosa’s face, disrupting her composure, as if she’d finally recognized the true ferocity of his purpose. Darting backward into a desperate evasive measure, Vosa whirled one of her blades behind her, hacking loose a massive shelf of surgical instruments from its place on the wall, and with a swing of the hand she used a Force push to fire them at him in a glinting storm of steel. Maul ducked the flying instruments and bobbed back up with a silent snarl. In his mind, the duel was all but over— his opponent was now dragging out the inevitable moment of defeat in a series of small humiliations. By turning to such diversionary tactics, Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

As for Maul's martial arts knowledge and ability? He's a master of Teras Kasi, a purely unarmed combat style designed for non-force sensitives to combat Jedi.

Here, for a quick feat, Maul was a master of "numerous" martial arts at the age of thirteen years old. Thirteen.

Maul nodded. Six years had passed since his arrival on Orsis. Taller and stronger, he still did not know his own age, but based on his observations of similar humanoids, he assumed he was about thirteen years old. Although he was already considered a master of numerous martial arts, he still had difficulty working as part of a team.

Star Wars: The Wrath of Darth Maul

Savage Strength and Martial Arts Feats

Savage is nowhere near the unarmed combatant Maul is. But I'd say he's comparable to/better than Malgus, definitely. Savage does have formal martial arts training (which Malgus doesn't, as far as I know), as he shows here where he legitimately takes it to a more experienced, force enhanced Ventress, before he was transformed or had any force powers. Also note that he was cracking stone with his blows.. without any enhancements or the force.. gives an idea of how strong he becomes after transformation.

For many of Maul's strength and martial arts feats he was either fueled by force rage and subsequently had an amp like with the injury to his arm being healed or dulled by Maul's use of the force and others like breaking through durasteel he had leverage that allowed him to penetrated the outer shell or only knock it back. Others are semi impressive feats but nothing another force user with a respectable amount of skill couldn't replicate. The martial art knowledge will mean little to nothing in a Lightsaber duel. Malgus was trained as a Sith Warrior and has had extensive combat and martial training from both his master and his Sith instructors exhibiting kicks punches and head-butts in his fighting techniques while Savage who to my knowledge has never had training in martial arts or combat techniques only managed to even touch Ventress because she allowed him to. Why would somebody who has fought master duelists let herself even managed to be touched by somebody like Savage unless she was testing him and seeing if he had the potential to become an acolyte. When was he cracking stone? Scans please. If he managed to crack stones it is an impressive feat but nothing we haven't seen from a far from prime Anakin.

Savage shows further martial arts ability here, where every single important blow of the fight was an unarmed attack by Savage.

Against a featless and nameless Jedi. He also didn't seem to use any martial skill he only blocked and dodged until he had a chance to strike the killing blow.

As for actual physical strength, I think we can agree Savage is the strongest here by a fair margin. However, if you're unconvinced that the gap in strength between Savage and Satele is very high, here is Savage, while performing a force grip, resisting and flat out overpowering Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously. Anakin is already on par, or stronger than Maul, nevermind Obi Wan as well.

Anakin and Obi Wan were trying to physically restrain him not using the force along with that Savage caught them by surprise and used both the force and his physical strength to surprise and push Anakin and Obiwan off of him neither Anakin or Obi Wan had reached their peaks yet at that time. It is also an unreasonable measure of Anakin's and Obiwan's own strength as they weren't in a good position to hold him down. I agree that he is most likely the strongest one here but I do not believe the gap between Satele and himself is very wide due to Satele improving in strength herself once she became Grand Master and Savage's own strength being circumstantial on force rage his position and his unpredictable uses of the force.

Along with this Satele demonstrated amazing technique during the battle managed to push Malgus back throughout most of the duel until she was overpowered and lost her own saber.

So we're agreed that, again, Malgus used physical strength to overpower Satele, and as a result, came this . close to killing her? Thanks for showing how much of an advantage Maul and Savage have over her.

Malgus used his superior strength to overpower a non prime Satele who was distracted by the battle around here as she was coordinating her own troops and making sure her commander was not severely injured who I believed she shared a close relationship with yes. He did not come close to killing her though as she still had her wide array of force powers both offensive and defensive which she demonstrated with her extremely advanced use of Tutaminis one that I would say even rivals Master Yoda's own when he applied the same technique against Dooku's lightning. Sorry I didn't help you in any way as all I showed was that a non distracted prime Satele would do even better against a potentially less physically strong opponent like Savage or Maul.

Losing her saber she demonstrated proficiency in the force power Tutaminis as she absorbed Malgus's Lightsaber into her hand. This demonstrated incredible power and is a powerful defensive capability that she could potentially use in a fight against Maul or Savage.

Eh.. I don't think it's very likely. It's actually bordering on a plot device that she used it to survive another encounter with Malgus, after being overpowered and disarmed again, where most duelists, even those who have used Tutaminis before, would have gone on to die. Also, she didn't actually get out of that situation by using Tutaminis. She was obviously going to be overwhelmed, but Jayce interrupted and tackled Malgus before he could kill Satele. Overall, I don't see this ability popping up in the fight for any reason, and if it does, evidently, it's not going to do much to help.

She demonstrated her proficiency with the ability which to me means that if she's in a similar situation she would employ it to survive said situation. Also she looked as if she was straining which is understandable as she was absorbing the continuous energy output of a Lightsaber a constant laser hot enough to melt huge amounts of almost any material. She did not look like she was going to be overwhelmed anytime soon and she likely would have absorbed the entire saber before being depleted. Evidently it would help quite a lot in almost any situation absorbing blaster bolts light sabers lightning and even the force of blows and telekinetic blows.

She also demonstrated advanced proficiency in Telekinesis when she overwhelmed Malgus's force shields and smashed him into the side of a mountain with a force wave. She continued to use force wave on Malgus as she kept him pinned against the wall and as Malgus struggled forward Satele was able to use a force blast so powerful that she shattered the entire mountain side and severely injured Malgus destroying his jaw.

Even though this is more part of your intro, and wasn't directly addressing Maul and Savage, I feel like I should address it right now anyway.

It was impressive.. but it was only impressive to an extent. Malgus had just tanked a point blank thermal detonator. He was clearly quite injured, unfocused and not combat ready when Satele fired her initial blast. Then being blasted into the mountain would have further injured him on impact. What Satele did to the cliff face was impressive, but the fact is she was not going to pull off that kind of force assault on a fresh Malgus who hadn't just been blown up at point blank. And seeing as neither Maul or Savage have been blown up prior to this fight, I don't see this feat being replicated. Especially since Maul has performed a feat to rival what she did, and both him and Savage are not new to dominating force sensitive's in the force.

After taking the grenade to the face and coming off from it seemingly uninjured that is just a testament to Malgus's own physical endurance making Satele's feat an even better one. I would argue that if she had used her powers at the beginning of the duel she would have done even better due to the fact that she exerted a lot of power in her use of Tutaminis and was weakened from the duel which she kept up with even though she was up against a physically superior opponent. I feel that both Maul and Savage could be blasted back as a prime Satele is even stronger in the force then the Satele that accomplished this feat against Malgus especially when it was a weakened non prime Satele. What was the feat that Maul did that rivaled Satele's? They never dominated anyone they only surprised or drew on force rage to overwhelm opponents on their own level momentarily while anyone else they "overwhelmed" was far beneath their level.

Force Power: Satele > Maul. Satele > Savage.

Actually based on what you've said and I've posted so far I'd be prepared to place it somewhere along the lines of..

Maul/Savage => Satele

I mean yeah, she's shown more force powers than Savage (not Maul), but not more usefulones. Which is what I'm going by

Are you saying Maul and Savage together are more powerful them Satele or both of them separately are? Because neither are true due to force feats she accomplished later in her life like shattering a blast door with a simple gesture or disassembling a huge gate or being able to use telepathy and precognition in both meditation and mid battle to predict her opponents moves or even her manipulation of hex droids that were more then a match for both Sith and Jedi which she should be able to use to disassemble or at least cause malfunction in Savage or Maul's Lightsaber's. Compared to Satele's numerous and powerful force powers what do Maul and Savage have that even compare in either power or usefulness.

Dueling Skill: Satele < Maul. Satele = Savage

Ha, well, you got the first part right. However.. I question if she's even more skilled than Savage. Oooh, controversial, I know. But really so far you have only shown Satele losing to Malgus - someone with less H2H skill, physical strength, and unless you can prove it, dueling skill than Savage. And here's my proof of Savage's skill:

For the first part she is barely below Maul as she has a higher degree of both skill and experience and because of her growth in speed strength and endurance she would be able to keep up with Maul for a long time in the dueling department. She is indeed more skilled experienced and faster them Savage. She even has comparable endurance and strength to him. Satele did not lose to Malgus either time and he has better H2H skill then Savage because of his own training where Savage has received none and even arguably better strength as Savage's form is undefined I would also argue his better dueling skill being able to overcome faster and more skilled opponents like Ven Zallow the temple blademaster. Along with that it is YOUR job to come up with any type of experience with H2H that Savage has had or if he has even been trained in any combat styles.

While dodging blaster bolts and engaging clones, Savage fights on par with Jedi High Council Member Plo Koon, and even manages to rip his mask off, granting him a quick win. But really, the important part is that he fought on par with such a credible duelist, and was even able to utilize the mask-removing tactic.

Now what makes this impressive is that Darth Maul himself has mused that fighting Plo Koon would be a true test of his skill. And Maul is someone who you have already agreed is a better duelist than Satele (by quite a margin, as I'll prove soon). Not to mention Koon has stalemated Ventress (someone Savage got the better of in a duel) and is one of the best duelists in the Jedi order. This feat alone puts Savage ahead in skill at this stage, but I'll throw up the Ventress one for kicks.

No the important part of that duel is that Savage only managed to take the win because he got lucky and managed to remove Koon's mask. I had not heard of the fight between before you told me so scans of it would be appreciated. They were Maul's own musing and since he had never fought him before or had much knowledge on him his musings are baseless. I agreed that he was slightly better but that Satele is comparable and could hold her own against him for quite a while. She also managed to beat Darth Baras a highly competent duelist and one who was on a much higher tier then the already highly skilled Malgus. A duelist who I believe is far above Savage in terms of skill and power and is comparable to Maul himself in dueling. When has Savage got the better of Ventress and where? When has Koon fought Ventress and where? It doesn't put Savage ahead at all as I'm sure if he did stalemate or best Ventress it was circumstantial and if Ventress did stalemate or best Koon it was circumstantial. Also beating either of these doesn't mean anything as they would not be comparable with GM Satele's own dueling level. And you can't use ABC logic because of the effectiveness of different Lightsaber forms on each other.

Experience: Satele > Maul. Satele > Savage.

Who wins?

Satele vs Maul: Satele 6/10.

Satele vs Savage: Satele 8/10.

Overall Maul is the better duelists and Savage is not as skilled as Satele but is strong and aggressive too bad Satele has dealt with strong and aggressive duelists before and as Malgus was a Djem So practitioner he is actually physically stronger then either Maul or Savage despite their Zabraki heritage. I believe Satele should be able to hold out a long time against Maul and maybe even stalemate Savage but once she started losing or saw herself as being disadvantaged by either she would fall back on her superior force powers and beat either of the Zabrak's.

Really.. experience? Maul bested Qui Gon Jinn (60+) and Obi Wan (25) simultaneously at the age of 22. Plus experience doesn't contribute anything anyway because it isn't even an indicator of how someone does in a fight. It's basically just a measurement of time and nothing more and you can't prove that experience =/> feats, unless in the feat itself it is stated or shown that ___ won because they had more experience.

I was referring to experience as skill.

Satele isn't taking a majority over Maul based on what you've shown. Maul is the better duelist, has two massive advantages over Satele (martial arts mastery and physical strength) and is even enough in force power for any attempt at a force assault by Satele to be rendered moot anyway. Now if you want to bring up a better feat for Satele that will actually show she can compete with Maul on a physical or skill level, I'll be happy to counter it by dropping even better ones for Maul :)

Martial arts mastery will mean little in a Lightsaber fight and the physical strength is not enough to make a marginal difference he is also what the lesser duelist if you're talking about it skill wise. You're up. :P

She isn't getting a majority over Savage at this point either. I've proven he shares the same advantages Maul has, and that he is of a higher skill level to Satele based on what you've mentioned so far. He is also, again, even enough in force combat to suggest he can resist an attempt at a force assault.

Read above. Also you have shown nothing that proves he has a higher skill level and I would actually say that Satele is massively more skilled then Savage especially when you see how unskilled Savage is compared to the likes of Maul which Satele can contend with and exceed in that area. Along with that you have not show that he can resist or even survive an overwhelming force attack especially from prime Satele who shatters blast doors palace gates has shattered mountains when she was younger and weakened and affected huge Sith Dreadnaughts.

Your last paragraph is just false on far too many levels, so I'll just counter it quickly.

  • Satele has done the exact opposite to dealing with strong and aggressive fighters. She has been overwhelmed and defeated by one. One who is even, if not, weakerthan Maul and Savage, a worse martial artist than them, and not as skilled in lightsaber combat. Also, they aren't strong by merit of being Zabraks. Zabraks are known for durability and insane pain tolerance. Maul is strong because since he learned to walk he's been conditioning his strength under the most brutal Sith Lord in galactic history, and Savage is strong through hugeenhancements at the hands of Mother Talzin, which puts him to a higher strength level than even Maul, nevermind Malgus.
  • As I've covered, Malgus isn't stronger than either Maul or Savage.
  • Satele as of now is not holding on for very long against either brother, due to the fact they are proving to be superior in every physical manner, and she is also weakagainst strong, aggressive, martial arts focused enemies like Malgus. Not only do the Zabraks share these traits, but they actually exceedMalgus in them. They should make shorter work of Satele than he did both times.
  • Her advantage in the force is really not even there at this point and is not enough to justify even a slim majority here.

  • She has contended and survived against someone who was massively stronger and arguably more skilled then her at the time and she improved massively in all areas as she grew older. Someone who is even if not stronger then Maul and Savage a better martial artist and someone who is even more skilled in Lightsaber combat. Maul did not focus on strength solely throughout his training and Savage wouldn't even be comparable with nameless force users without the enhancements which may or may not put him around the level of Malgus.
  • That's debatable with Malgus probably winning that debate. ;)
  • Satele should be able to beat Savage in a good duel or failing that stomp him epically in the force while she should be able to hold out for a good amount of time before employing her force powers in her dueling and overwhelming Maul. She has never been shown to be weak against any kind of form or combat style and she has actually shown she is especially resilient to strength forms. Along with that it is debatable whether either of them match Malgus let along exceeds him. He did not make short work of her either time. In fact it can be argued that she had the advantage over him in both encounters.
  • Her advantage in the force is what makes her not only able to stomp Savage but also make short work or Maul.
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@beezlebub: Before I continue.. Pen isn't up next. I am.

You post. I reply. Pen posts. I reply.

Repeat

Edit: Nvm

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@beezlebub:

At the time of her first duel with Malgus she was only an apprentice and managed to hold her own along with her master for quite some time and in her next fight with Malgus she managed to keep up with him and contend with him throughout the entirety of the duel.

You keep saying "she was only an apprentice" like she was a different person at that point in time, which she wasn't. I mean, if you actually have feats of her in her "prime" that demonstrate her ability to cope with strong, martial arts focuses duelists, then I advise you post them. Because just saying "she was just an apprentice then" or "she wasn't in her prime then" like we're all to assume she gets a sufficient skill increase/compensation without the feats to back it up, isn't going to cut it.

She didn't hold her own. Watch the fight. The fight starts at 2:51ish. Malgus has her in a kill-position by 3:01. She lasted 10 seconds against him. That is not holding your own.

Granted she does a bit better in her second fight against him, but the fact is, she still lost to him in a similar manner to how she lost her first fight against him, and would have died in both fights if she hadn't had help. These are not good feats. Especially considering you haven't even proven that Malgus is as strong or skilled as Maul and Savage...

She wasn't even close to being in her prime there and despite having a smaller build and having an obvious strength disadvantage she managed to keep pace with him throughout the entire fight before defeating him with her superior force powers. As she grew older she only became more experienced, powerful and skilled and I feel confident that if she had met Malgus at any point during her period as Grand Master she could have defeated him in a Lightsaber duel quite handily.

Most of this is countered above, but there's still some stuff.

She didn't compensate for her smaller build and strength disadvantage. She succumbed to it. She didn't defeat Malgus with superior force. She force blasted a stunned and injured Malgus who had just been hit by a point blank thermal detonator. Did you actually watch the fight?

Are there any feats to support that she improved with age or are you just expecting us all to assume that?

This also shows that she has little to no trouble against opponents who are physically more powerful such as Maul and Savage. While it is true that they are physically strong it is debatable if they are even on the same strength level as Malgus as he was a Djem So practioner and Maul practiced Juyo and Savage had an undefined form.

Right..... so Malgus is now stronger than Maul and Savage because he has a strength based form? That's tantamount to saying Qui Gon Jinn is more agile than Anakin Skywalker because Ataru is a more agile form than Djem So.

I'll cover why Maul and Savage are stronger than Malgus later so I'm not repeating myself (although.. I think I'll be doing a lot of that in this thread).

So what we have here is a far from prime Satele managing to hold her own against a physically powerful Djem So practioner in their prime. With Satele not only going against possibly physically weaker opponents then Malgus but also being in her prime where she is stronger faster and more skilled I will now change my opinion to her besting Savage in a Lightsaber duel and managing to hold her own against Maul.

No, what we have is the same Satele Shan in her twenties as the one in her fourties, lasting 10 seconds against Malgus in her first fight before being put into a kill position, then in her second fight, lasting about 30 seconds longer, before again, being put into a kill position, and again, being saved from certain death.

Satele is not going against "weaker opponents" because you haven't even dropped a strength feat for Malgus. You're just assuming that because he uses Djem So he must be stronger than Maul and Savage and that's just disregardable to say the least.

Maul is renowned for his aggressive style and for overwhelming offense not necessarily his physical strength or martial skill. Savage is a brute its true but with hardly any skill at all I have not often if ever seen Savage use unarmed combat so scans of that would be nice. I don't think I did. Lol.

This is just plainly false. So is the part about Savage which I will again, explain to you later since you're making a habit of neglecting to read my posts or just ignoring them altogether.

Strength:

Maul using a combination of physical strength and speed to overwhelm Komari Vosa, after he had been shot in the right arm point blank with a blaster.

Now he gripped the lightsaber in both arms, forcing his damaged right arm into service and >gripping the hilt of his saber with his full strength.< It was time for Juyo, the Way of the Vornskr— the last of the Seven Forms. He seized upon it eagerly, allowing himself to be swept up in the chaotic frontal assault of thrusts, slashes, and jabs.

“Maul—” A tremor of new fear pulsed across Vosa’s face, disrupting her composure, as if she’d finally recognized the true ferocity of his purpose. Darting backward into a desperate evasive measure, Vosa whirled one of her blades behind her, hacking loose a massive shelf of surgical instruments from its place on the wall, and with a swing of the hand she used a Force push to fire them at him in a glinting storm of steel. Maul ducked the flying instruments and bobbed back up with a silent snarl. In his mind, the duel was all but over— his opponent was now dragging out the inevitable moment of defeat in a series of small humiliations. By turning to such diversionary tactics, Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

Maul: Lockdown

Musing that Qui Gon could not meet his strength in their first duel (Maul also had an injury in this duel, aswell, which is how later on in the duel Qui-Gon was able to "meet" his strength):

But he cannot match my strength. I sense this. And I feel surprise at this.

Our blows send shudders through my body. He meet's my strength.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul "hammering away at the defences" of Anoon Bondara in their fight.

Maul bared his teeth. He would not lose his quarry again! He doubled his efforts, pressing the attack hard, hammering away at the Twi’lek’s defenses. The Jedi gave ground, but Maul was still unable to slash through his guard.

Martial Arts:

As for proof of Maul being renowned for using martial arts (like you couldn't already tell by the fact he uses martial arts techniques in all of his fights, including in Episode bloody 1)

Maul had mastered "numerous" by the time he was thirteen years old.

Maul nodded. Six years had passed since his arrival on Orsis. Taller and stronger, he still did not know his own age, but based on his observations of similar humanoids, he assumed he was about thirteen years old. Although he was already considered a master of numerous martial arts, he still had difficulty working as part of a team.

The Wrath of Darth Maul

Sidious explains that he trained Maul in, again, numerous martial arts, described as "exotic" and "forbidden."

I took inspiration from the Jedi tradition of indoctrinating Force-sensitive infants when I selected one apprentice, whom I named Darth Maul. I took him from his home world, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side.

Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

An explanation of Teras Kasi (an unarmed martial art designed for non-force users to fight Jedi), and that Maul had been trained in this form from a very young age.

Maul’s entire existence had consisted of training, of exercise and instruction. Early in his life, before his voice had deepened, Maul had learned the intricate movements and forms of the teräs käsi fighting style, the patterns of movements based on the hunting characteristics of various beasts throughout the galaxy: Charging Wampa, Rancor Rising, Dancing Dragon-snake, and many more.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Do you honestly need any more proof that Maul utilizes both strength and martial arts in his dueling?

For many of Maul's strength and martial arts feats he was either fueled by force rage and subsequently had an amp like with the injury to his arm being healed or dulled by Maul's use of the force

...what? Where was it indicated in those quotes that Maul was amped beyond his normal capabilities? Maul "drawing on the dark side of the Force" is the type of phrase that is used dozens of times per novel. If Maul wants to apply more speed-based attacks he'll draw on the dark side. If he wants to fire off some strength-based blows he'll channel his anger into every strike. If he has an injury, like in his fight with Komari Vosa, he'll use the force to make his arm functional (not healed, functional, as in still working, but still injured), and will use his personal pain tolerance to ignore the screaming pain coming from his arm.

Stuff like that is not uncommon in the slightest, because it is what Maul does in near enough every fight. He will draw on the dark side to accommodate for whatever it is he needs at that time, whether it be a speed, strength or endurance increase.

and others like breaking through durasteel he had leverage that allowed him to penetrated the outer shell or only knock it back.

Yeah, he wasn't kicking the bloody droids in half with every kick, but he was stopping them cold and putting them down with regular kicks which is exceptional considering durasteel is one of the only metals capable of causing significant friction when a lightsaber hits it. And Maul getting through the durasteel armor at all is impressive, and is still not something I have seen Malgus do. You also didn't address Maul breaking a spine with one strike or really any of the feats I presented.

Others are semi impressive feats but nothing another force user with a respectable amount of skill couldn't replicate.

No.. that's not how this works. I have given you feats of Maul and Savage's strength. Now it is your job to prove Malgus can match them. Basically all of your argument is going on assumptions at the moment.

The martial art knowledge will mean little to nothing in a Lightsaber duel. Malgus was trained as a Sith Warrior and has had extensive combat and martial training from both his master and his Sith instructors exhibiting kicks punches and head-butts in his fighting techniques while Savage who to my knowledge has never had training in martial arts or combat techniques only managed to even touch Ventress because she allowed him to. Why would somebody who has fought master duelists let herself even managed to be touched by somebody like Savage unless she was testing him and seeing if he had the potential to become an acolyte. When was he cracking stone? Scans please. If he managed to crack stones it is an impressive feat but nothing we haven't seen from a far from prime Anakin.

Martial arts knowledge obviously counts for quite a lot in a fight considering Satele has lost both of her fights against Malgus because he has used martial arts in combination with physical strength to defeat her. Something Maul and Savage both quite clearly do as well.

Malgus was trained in combat by a Master and Instructors?! Really? He must be one of the select few trillions of force sensitives who get to do that! /sarcasm Come on.. I've posted numerous sources stating Maul is a master martial artist and you're trying to tell me Malgus is in his ballpark because he got "extensive training" from a "master" like every other bloody force sensitive in history does?

Savage quite obviously does have martial arts training in order for him to fight Ventress using such intricate martial art techniques. He's a Nightbrother. They are trained from infancy in physical, martial combat.

No... nowhere is it stated, shown or even vaguely hinted at that Ventress was taking Savage lightly and letting him hit her. That is pure convenient speculation on your part. I'm sorry but are you really trying to call PIS on this feat? The whole reason Ventress and Savage were fighting in the first place was to determine if Savage was worthy for Talzin's transformation, in order to train under Dooku. If Savage had done sh*tly and gotten his ass beat by Ventress like you think he should have, then he wouldn't have gotten transformed. Ventress was the benchmark for Savage and he reached it. That's blatantly not PIS. Not to mention Savage fights evenly with her later on, on the Turtle Tanker later on anyway.

He was cracking stone in the video... watch it again. I'm not going to keep reposting videos, scans and arguments because you are overlooking them, can't be bothered to go back and check, or are just flat out ignoring them.

A "far from prime Anakin" aka TCW Anakin, who was approaching his "prime" (which didn't improve significantly in strength anyway), is still stronger than Malgus and rivalling Maul in strength. Savage pre-transformation matched Anakin's arguably best strength feat of cracking stone. Now do the math and account for Savage post-transformation.

Against a featless and nameless Jedi. He also didn't seem to use any martial skill he only blocked and dodged until he had a chance to strike the killing blow.

Now you're just blatantly posting misinformation. I don't even know how to debate against you. If you look at the video you will see Savage using unarmed combat on his opponent. I am seriously refusing to clutter this thread with videos every time you overlook something as basic as a 30 second fight sequence.

Anakin and Obi Wan were trying to physically restrain him not using the force along with that Savage caught them by surprise and used both the force and his physical strength to surprise and push Anakin and Obiwan off of him neither Anakin or Obi Wan had reached their peaks yet at that time. It is also an unreasonable measure of Anakin's and Obiwan's own strength as they weren't in a good position to hold him down. I agree that he is most likely the strongest one here but I do not believe the gap between Satele and himself is very wide due to Satele improving in strength herself once she became Grand Master and Savage's own strength being circumstantial on force rage his position and his unpredictable uses of the force.

Wow. Where was there any indication anyone in that video was using the force? Savage certainly didn't.

What is your fixation with discrediting my arguments by posting "they weren't at their peaks yet"? How does that statement make a difference to anything. Anakin as of that episode was the same Anakin who had cracked stone under the weight of his lightsaber strikes and was wrecking spider droids with his hands. And having Obi Wan there, and accounting for the huge distance he launched them, makes the feat even more impressive.

They were right on top of him. They couldn't have gotten into a better position to hold him down.

Savage is the strongest one here and he's blatantly stronger than Malgus. Someone who has bowled over Satele twice. And do not reply to that with your "she wasn't in her prime" nonsense because it isn't validated by feats of her strength increasing.

Savage, as well as just about every other dark sider, fight angrily. Just because Savage grunts whenever he does something involving strength, doesn't mean he's instantly amped by force rage. Instead of continuing this crusade of discrediting every feat I post with arguments that don't work at all, why not post some feats of your own?

Malgus used his superior strength to overpower a non prime Satele who was distracted by the battle around here as she was coordinating her own troops and making sure her commander was not severely injured who I believed she shared a close relationship with yes. He did not come close to killing her though as she still had her wide array of force powers both offensive and defensive which she demonstrated with her extremely advanced use of Tutaminis one that I would say even rivals Master Yoda's own when he applied the same technique against Dooku's lightning. Sorry I didn't help you in any way as all I showed was that a non distracted prime Satele would do even better against a potentially less physically strong opponent like Savage or Maul.

From here on out I'm going to ignore any mention of the phrase "non-prime" or anything to do with Maul or Savage being weaker than Malgus, because I've already covered why it's nonsense.

She was not distracted at all and to say she was is reaching to the absolute max. What the f*ck else was she focusing on when Malgus was pushing her to the brink of her abilities? Are you now trying to say that in a life or death situation Satele likes to take a minute to focus on something different as someone is trying to cut her in half? Because that would certainly help my argument.

Yes.. he.. did. The strain on her face when she was applying tutaminis made her look like she had three lifetimes worth of unpaid rent and final notice letters piled up in her living room. She was clearly just about to lose grasp of the lightsaber. And if she had tried to move, or use another force ability, that would be mean surrendering her position, letting her tutaminis dissipate, and eating a lightsaber. If Jayce hadn't been there she'd have been dead.

A "non distracted prime Satele" would last approximately 45 generously given seconds against Savage based on what you've shown thusfar, nevermind Maul.

She demonstrated her proficiency with the ability which to me means that if she's in a similar situation she would employ it to survive said situation. Also she looked as if she was straining which is understandable as she was absorbing the continuous energy output of a Lightsaber a constant laser hot enough to melt huge amounts of almost any material. She did not look like she was going to be overwhelmed anytime soon and she likely would have absorbed the entire saber before being depleted. Evidently it would help quite a lot in almost any situation absorbing blaster bolts light sabers lightning and even the force of blows and telekinetic blows.

I'm nearly done with this whole thread. The amount of reaching...

Right. Let's say Satele, very coincidentally, manages to get into the same position she was in with Malgus-

You know what, no. I'm not even doing this. This is ridiculous. No she wouldn't have absorbed the whole f*cking lightsaber and there's nothing you can post to suggest she's even capable of doing that. Malgus would have killed her if she hadn't had help. You have only shown that Maul and Savage have extremely huge advantages over Satele. And instead of countering my posts with feats with your own feats, you've spent this whole time trying to misinterpret my feats in the least impressive way possible while hopelessly reaching all the way up to f*cking Mount Olympus to show how impressive it is that Satele got destroyed by Malgus twice. I'm sorry.. but I cannot keep going over this without frying my damn brain.

AND SINCE WHEN DID TUTAMINIS ABSORB FORCE PUSHES OR PHYSICAL BLOWS? OH MY DAYS

After taking the grenade to the face and coming off from it seemingly uninjured

No Caption Provided

I feel that both Maul and Savage could be blasted back as a prime Satele is even stronger in the force then the Satele that accomplished this feat against Malgus especially when it was a weakened non prime Satele. What was the feat that Maul did that rivaled Satele's? They never dominated anyone they only surprised or drew on force rage to overwhelm opponents on their own level momentarily while anyone else they "overwhelmed" was far beneath their level.

Wow. You're actually lowballing now. This is ludicrous.

Er.. the one where he ripped a cliff face off? Do you read my posts or are am I just talking to myself here?

Maul blatantly used a force choke on Kenobi when he was combat ready with his lightsaber out. Maul could have pulled his robot d*ck out and it wouldn't have surprised Kenobi. Stop reaching with every opportunity you get and just debate the points I'm making.

Funnily enough Savage doesn't actually draw on force rage every time he does something. Pretty crazy right? That someone on my team actually has consistent feats that contend with Satele's? Oh but I suppose there'll be some other reason for why nothing I say is impressive but everything Satele does is tantamount to oneness with the force.

Also, you entirely contradicted yourself there. In order to dominate someone in the force they have to be far beneath your level. If they were on the same level they wouldn't be able to dominate eachother. Hence why Maul is far better than Obi Wan in the force.

Savage isn't as good as Maul in the way that he can dominate people in the force, although he could do it to someone like Kenobi, but as my scans clearly showed, even if you did ignore them, Savage's force blasts are very powerful.

No Caption Provided

Are you saying Maul and Savage together are more powerful them Satele or both of them separately are? Because neither are true due to force feats she accomplished later in her life like shattering a blast door with a simple gesture or disassembling a huge gate or being able to use telepathy and precognition in both meditation and mid battle to predict her opponents moves or even her manipulation of hex droids that were more then a match for both Sith and Jedi which she should be able to use to disassemble or at least cause malfunction in Savage or Maul's Lightsaber's. Compared to Satele's numerous and powerful force powers what do Maul and Savage have that even compare in either power or usefulness.

Separately, I said they're equal, if not, superior to her.

I'll give Satele the advantage in telekinesis but my whole point was - Savage and Maul have both done more than enough to establish they wouldn't get stomped in the Force.

Telepathy? Well, Maul was clouding the mind of Obi Wan during TPM, and he has put a telepath in a coma before when he tried to scan his mind. I'm sure Satele's telepathy will be very useful here.

Are you aware precognition is something that every single force sensitive is able to use when they get to like two, maybe three years old?

No.. reworking a droid's electrodrivers to make it do something else is something Maul is capable of doing, and is also something you cannot do to a lightsaber in the same way. Show me Satele doing that to a lightsaber then I'll concede. Oh wait, she's never done it before...

Savage is very good at blasting things. Namely Obi Wan and Anakin, 60 soldiers worth of an army, a dozen soldiers in a gesture, Adi Gallia.. the list really does go on.

For the first part she is barely below Maul as she has a higher degree of both skill and experience and because of her growth in speed strength and endurance she would be able to keep up with Maul for a long time in the dueling department.

No she isn't. Let me know when, out of 5000-7000+ years worth of Sith, she is considered one of the most skilled in lightsaber combat. Let me know when she easily parry's the blows of Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan simultaneously while being able to direct a duel to a specific location. Let me know when she knows within seconds of fighting one of the Jedi order's best fighters, that she had already won the duel. Let me know when Darth Plagueis considers her speed astonishing. Let me know when Darth Sidious describes her as elegant and precise, or the perfect weapon. Let me know when she dominates someone in a lightsaber duel after being shot in the right arm and losing part of it's functionality. Let me know when she's done losing to people like Malgus who cannot even scrape someone like Maul in dueling skill, strength, speed or martial arts mastery.

I haven't properly covered speed yet so, I'm going to drop lot's of Maul's speed feats, and you're going to wriggle your way out of explaining why he isn't dominating her in this category aswell.

Moves faster than the eye can see.

“You— you don’t understand ,” he said. “You can’t be here. He thinks you’re dead.” Zero started to stand up, and Maul’s hand moved faster than the eye could see, grabbing Zero’s fork and slamming it down so that it impaled the Twi’lek’s sleeve, pinning his arm to the table.

Maul: Lockdown

Activates his lightsaber just in time to deflect seven blaster bolts from a bounty hunter at close range, his hands moving in a blur.

He thumbed on both blades as the next blaster bolt and half a dozen more came his way in rapid succession. The Sith apprentice’s hands were a blur as he let the dark side take him over completely, giving in to its power and allowing it to control and manipulate him. Blaster bolts struck the lightsaber’s spinning blades and were deflected into the walls, the ceiling, the floor. No time to aim, though a bolt or two did hit the bounty hunter without apparent effect.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Dodges a wrist-launcher rocket after it was fired at extremely close range, disappearing in a blur before the bounty hunter's eyes.

Desperate, she reached for her wrist launcher. Her only chance was to hit the horned one squarely and hope that the explosion would be contained enough by the other’s body to allow Lihnn to survive. But as she triggered the launcher the tattooed man seemed to disappear in a blur. All of a sudden there was a hole in the wall where an instant ago it had been solid.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

He sidesteps blaster bolts.

Maul opened the door and stepped into the office. Trezza was seated behind his massive desk. Kilindi stood before him. And Meltch Krakko stood on the far side of the room, near an open fireplace.

Kilindi gasped at the sight o Maul's blood-soaked body. Maul fixed his gaze on Krakko and walked straight toward him. Even though Maul was not carrying any weapons, Krakko drew his blaster and fired at him. Maul jerked his body to the left, dodged the blaster bolt, and kept walking toward Krakko. Krakko fired two more shots. Maul dodged those too before he grabbed Krakko's gun arm with one hand, and his neck with the other.

The Wrath of Darth Maul

Maul running five times faster than a human can travel.

But there was an even quicker way to overtake them. He called upon the Force, moving easily five times faster than a human could travel at a dead run. There was no way they could escape him now.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul spins a web of light out of his lightsaber blades during a fight.

He pressed the attack viciously, blocking and thrusting, the twin radiant blades spinning a web of light about him.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Dodges a freight train coming at him at over 100km/h (or, over 60mph).

He landed lightly. The entire tunnel was shaking as with the roar of some titanic beast. Maul looked up to see a driverless freight transport bearing down on him at better than one hundred kilometers an hour. Anyone else, even a trained athlete raised in a heavier gravity field, would have been crushed to paste. But Maul seized the Force, let it whip him up and to the side as if he were attached to a giant elastic band. The metal behemoth missed him by millimeters.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Spins his blade during combat, so fast, it forms a shield.

But they did not prevent her from deflecting his strikes as he again moved within range, his twin blades spinning so fast they seemed to merge into a crimson shield.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

This one is veryimpressive. Maul is fighting so fast, that his blows seem to be coming from everywhere, being delivered all at once. That's alright on it's own, but Maul just moments prior to this fight had been shot in the right arm at point blank by a blaster. He didn't even have full use of his right arm and he was capable of moving at such speeds.

In his mind, the duel was all but over— his opponent was now dragging out the inevitable moment of defeat in a series of small humiliations. By turning to such diversionary tactics, Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Moves so fast that recording equipment needs to be slowed down to see him.

When he was satisfied that he had committed the results of his reconnaissance to memory, he shrugged out of his cloak and leapt straight up over the fence, landing precisely where some of the rocks he had tossed rested. Then he sprang to a series of other sites that ultimately carried him to the wall of the principal building, moving with such speed the entire time that whatever holorecordings were being made wouldn't show him unless they were played in slow motion.

Episode I Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul

Moves faster than a droid can see.

Maul delivered a sharp kick to the droid's spherical underside. The droid soared toward the ceiling but regained control before impact and flew back toward the Sith. Maul leaped aside, moving faster than the droid's photoreceptor could follow. The droid raced past him and smashed hard against the cell wall.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

During a training exercise, Maul is facing a droid that can throw blows imperceptibly fast. Despite this, he still perceives his surroundings as if time had slowed down.

Rapier lunged at full extension, its metal knee joint bent almost to the floor. The needle point flickered toward Maul's heart, almost too fast to see.

The dark side blossomed in Darth Maul, the power of it resonating in him like black lightning, augmenting his years of training, guiding his reactions. Time seemed to slow, to stretch.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

States he can kill four or five beings in the flicker of an eyelash.

The Raiders shake their gaderffii and begin to surround me. There are just too many of them. I can take out four or five in the flicker of an eyelash, but that will just infuriate the rest. Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Slashes a droid twice, so fast an onlooker couldn't even see either blow delivered.

Anger rises in me, which is good. The darkness crests and roars. I twist in the air, my lightsaber twirling, revolving. Its balance is perfect in my hand. I strike one hard blow to the left flank of the droid. I feel the power of the move reverberate all the way to my shoulder. It gratifies me. The other blow to the right follows a fraction of an instant later, so close that an observer would not be able to tell which blow came first.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul speedblitzes multiple squads of battle droids. A squad is made up of 8 droids. He would of been deflecting dozens of blaster bolts from numerous angles while doing this.

Calling his long lightsaber to his hand, he made short work of the squad, decapitating them with his blade or exploding them by deflecting blaster bolts back at them. The brief altercation drew several more patrols, the members of which he similarly dismembered.

End Game

Maul clearing through a 20 meter line's worth of Gungan soldiers, decapitating and slicing in half all of them, while dodging their spears and bombs.

Some of the Gungan riders saw him coming and took aim. Maul twisted his body, either evading flights of energy lances and spheres or fending them off with the lightsaber. Letting go of the STAP when he was still twenty meters from Ganne and the general, he called on the Force to send himself tearing through a score of mounted Gungans. It was clear that they had never seen anything like him. But then, who had? What Sith in the past thousand years had been allowed to wield a lightsaber in open battle? Was that in itself not enough to qualify him as atrue Sith?

The rubbery Gungans all but disintegrated at the touch of the twin blades Maul had hoped to reserve for the Jedi. Their billed heads flew in all directions. His slashes halved them down the middle or through the midsection, and they squawked as they died. Their nostrils flared and their eyes bulged from their heads, and the white sand beach grew puddled with their blood. Maul maneuvered closer to Ganne, cutting the legs out from under the Gungans’ mounts or impaling them on his lightsaber. He launched himself into the air when he was still five meters from the Boss and the general. The latter lost his head to one of the blades, and Ganne was knocked from his mount by Maul’s extended left hand.

End Game

Catches four arrows and returns them to sender.

The Bartokks scurried across the corridor and jammed twin-bolt crossbows down through the floor's open slots. They aimed their weapons at Maul and fired. Four poison-tipped, armor-piercing arrows sped toward the Sith Lord. Maul's hands moved like lightning as he plucked each arrow from the air and flung them back at the assassins. The arrows shot up through the grated floor and struck the two snipers. Their arms reflexively reached to remove the arrows, but the poison worked rapidly. Now there were four Bartokks lying on the corridor floor above Darth Maul.

Episode I Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul

She is indeed more skilled experienced and faster them Savage. She even has comparable endurance and strength to him. Satele did not lose to Malgus either time and he has better H2H skill then Savage because of his own training where Savage has received none and even arguably better strength as Savage's form is undefined I would also argue his better dueling skill being able to overcome faster and more skilled opponents like Ven Zallow the temple blademaster. Along with that it is YOUR job to come up with any type of experience with H2H that Savage has had or if he has even been trained in any combat styles.

Before I go any further.. are you f*cking kidding with the last part? I blatantly posted instances of Savage using unarmed combat in my post, against Ventress and others. All you have done, is told me, that Malgus has received "training". Are you actually aware that just about every single force user that has ever joined the Sith or Jedi, has received "training" before? I mean come on.

Yes, Savage has martial arts training. It's clearly demonstrated in his fight with Ventress.

How is she more skilled than Savage? Savage has gotten the better of Plo Koon while simultaneously fighting clones, gotten the better of Asajj Ventress, killed Adi Gallia in a duel, and has even pushed back Obi Wan and Anakin for a time. Satele has lost decisively to Malgus twice. Those dueling feats are not comparable in the slightest.

She isn't faster either, unless she can do any of this:

Creates very large after-images with his blade.

He has ignited and hurled his lightsaber faster than a room full of guards, or anyone else, could react, decapitating five people at once.

Before anyone could react, Savage had ignited both blades of his saber and hurled the weapon, sending a spinning sheet of scarlet plasma knifing through the gloomy hall. The lightsaber returned to Savage's hand, it's circuit of the room complete, and he deactivated the blades. The soldiers of the Black Sun and the Death Watch stood there, momentarily stunned. Then all heard five thumps from behind the thrones, and the five headless bodies of the Black Sun leaders collapsed where they stood.

Star Wars The Clone Wars: Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Has moved in the blink of an eye.

"In an eyeblink, Maul and Savage had their lightsabers drawn and ignited, and were sending laser blasts ricocheting all around the chamber.."

Star Wars The Clone Wars: Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Temporarily deflected omni-directional blaster fire.

Loading Video...

AND SHE'S COMPARABLY DURABLE? ARE YOU KIDDING. Let me know when she's blaster-proof.

She has comparable strength to Savage? You are seriously, seriously overreaching now. I can actually see your arm coming out the computer screen trying to reach my f*cking face right now. That's how much you're reaching.

I'm not even going to address such a completely baseless and ludicrous statement.

No the important part of that duel is that Savage only managed to take the win because he got lucky and managed to remove Koon's mask. I had not heard of the fight between before you told me so scans of it would be appreciated.

I. Posted. The. F*cking. Scans. And since they take ages to upload I'm not doing it again.

Are you even reading my arguments anymore?

How is it a case of luck if Savage is able to remove Koon's mask? What, was Koon sleep walking during that duel or something? Because last time I checked, him and Savage were dueling, then Savage removed his mask, getting the win. Now it's your turn to show Satele doing something better otherwise we have nothing to discuss.

They were Maul's own musing and since he had never fought him before or had much knowledge on him his musings are baseless.

What a load of crap. Are you aware that Sidious gave Maul an outside tour of the Jedi temple regularly as he was growing up, and familiarized him with every single High Council member and otherwise notable Jedi? Maul learned all he could about them and about Jedi in general because Sidious bred him to kill Jedi, and to kill those particular Jedi. I'd say Maul's musings of thinking Plo Koon is a worthy match for him are very notable considering he would then go on to decisively beat Qui Gon Jinn twice, once while injured (and especially considering he name-dropped Mace Windu alongside Koon).

I agreed that he was slightly better but that Satele is comparable and could hold her own against him for quite a while. She also managed to beat Darth Baras a highly competent duelist and one who was on a much higher tier then the already highly skilled Malgus. A duelist who I believe is far above Savage in terms of skill and power and is comparable to Maul himself in dueling.

It doesn't matter what you believe. It matters what Baras has done. So tell me, what has Baras done to make her a more worthy opponent than Plo Koon, Qui Gon Jinn, Asajj Ventress, Anoon Bondara? All people Maul and Savage have bested or even killed.

When has Savage got the better of Ventress and where? When has Koon fought Ventress and where? It doesn't put Savage ahead at all as I'm sure if he did stalemate or best Ventress it was circumstantial and if Ventress did stalemate or best Koon it was circumstantial.

And you can't use ABC logic because of the effectiveness of different Lightsaber forms on each other.

On the Turtle Tanker when him and Maul fought Obi Wan and Asajj. Yeno, that time they fought fair and square and Asajj and Kenobi were explicitly stated as being "outmatched" and had to escape?

Koon fought Ventress on Khorn in a comic called Star Wars The Clone Wars 8: In Service of the Republic Part 2

Oh yeah, right. God forbid I actually listed a feat that you couldn't discredit as unimpressive somehow. There was nothing circumstantial to either duel.

Lightsaber forms? Was it not you who earlier stated "Savage has no defined form"????? Seriously stop reaching. There were no conflictions in form in either duel. Accept it.

Also beating either of these doesn't mean anything as they would not be comparable with GM Satele's own dueling level

Plo Koon isn't comparable to Satele as a duelist? Plo f*cking Koon?

... moving on.

I was referring to experience as skill.

Why? Experience isn't the same as actual feats of lightsaber/martial arts skill, and frankly, is far less useful when determining a winner of a fight.

Martial arts mastery will mean little in a Lightsaber fight and the physical strength is not enough to make a marginal difference he is also what the lesser duelist if you're talking about it skill wise. You're up. :P

How the hell do you draw that conclusion when Malgus has landed unarmed blows on Satele in fights before? Seriously.. he nearly ended her life with a knee to the stomach that put her in a kill position and he landed numerous unarmed blows in their second fight.

The gap in physical strength is even bigger than it was for her against Malgus, and you've shown nothing to disprove that. Maul has amplified versions of the advantages Malgus has over Satele, as does Savage.

Did you just say Maul is a "lesser duelist skill wise" to Satele? Next joke.

Read above. Also you have shown nothing that proves he has a higher skill level and I would actually say that Satele is massively more skilled then Savage especially when you see how unskilled Savage is compared to the likes of Maul which Satele can contend with and exceed in that area. Along with that you have not show that he can resist or even survive an overwhelming force attack especially from prime Satele who shatters blast doors palace gates has shattered mountains when she was younger and weakened and affected huge Sith Dreadnaughts.

So basically your argument is.

"No, your feats don't show that!"

"Satele is better but I'm not going to provide evidence to prove it!"

"Baseless statements for the win!"

  • She has contended and survived against someone who was massively stronger and arguably more skilled then her at the time and she improved massively in all areas as she grew older. Someone who is even if not stronger then Maul and Savage abetter martial artist and someone who is even more skilled in Lightsaber combat. Maul did not focus on strength solely throughout his training and Savage wouldn't even be comparable with nameless force users without the enhancements which may or may not put him around the level of Malgus.
  • That's debatable with Malgus probably winning that debate. ;)
  • Satele should be able to beat Savage in a good duel or failing that stomp him epically in the force while she should be able to hold out for a good amount of time before employing her force powers in her dueling and overwhelming Maul. She has never been shown to be weak against any kind of form or combat style and she has actually shown she is especially resilient to strength forms. Along with that it is debatable whether either of them match Malgus let along exceeds him. He did not make short work of her either time. In fact it can be argued that she had the advantage over him in both encounters.
  • Her advantage in the force is what makes her not only able to stomp Savage but also make short work or Maul.

She did not contend, and was on the brink of death twice, against someone who she only survived against because she got help twice. That someone is not even stronger than Maul or Savage, and you're yet to prove he's even close to them in the feats I've posted. He is nowhere f*cking near a better martial artist or lightsaber combatant than Maul and again you've shown nothing to prove that. Same with Savage. You keep saying things that sound good but have not yet been proven. No, Maul didn't focus solely on strength in his training. He incorporated strength and speed, into an aggressive and overwhelmingly powerful and unpredictable style developed over countless years of nothing but training and fighting tougher opponents than Satele. Saying Savage is tantamount to a no-name without enhancements is f*cking stupid because

  1. He gave Asajj Ventress, a very credible force user and combatant, an extremely close fight without enhancements, when she had the force
  2. He was not even force sensitive pre-enhancements

Nothing is debatable about Malgus at this moment in time.

You know what I'm done. If you don't change the way you're debating in your next post I'm just going to ignore you and debate Penderor until votes arrive. I am not sitting going through another one of those...

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I think I already know who I'm voting for.....if this keeps up.

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#43  Edited By Intrepid37

LOL at this:

You know what I'm done. If you don't change the way you're debating in your next post I'm just going to ignore you and debate Penderor until votes arrive. I am not sitting going through another one of those...

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#44  Edited By Penderor

Bastila: "The fact that you are so strong in the Force and have had such relatively little training could have terrible consequences. For you, and for everyone around you."

Revan was able to persuade dozens or maybe hundreds of Jedi to join him and then he led ENTIRE Republic into the war. Already lost war was becoming a victorious one.

When Maul will change the fate of the known Galaxy three times with his leadership ability highly involved let me know, ok?

Zhar Lestin, the Jedi Master and member of the Jedi Council said that Revan was the best pupil he ever had as a student and aslo called him the future Champion of the Order. And it was in time when his other than combat abilities were not known.

Revan also defeat in H2H combat the best Echani warrior and general in his times Yusannis.

At the far end of the hall, another half a dozen of the Imperial Guard rounded the corner. Revan reached out with the Force and ripped the vaulted

stone archway in the ceiling above them free from its setting. A shower of dust and debris rained down on the reinforcements, sending them into

temporary retreat.-Revan

An alarm began to ring out in the hall, triggered by one of the other three soldiers. Before they could join in the fight, Revan thrust his hand, palm

up, in the direction of the sealed durasteel doors, blasting them wide open with the power of the Force.-Revan

This clearly shows that Revan had completely no TK problem with the blast. Doors could have weight easily from 500kg to 1000kg and they were sealed. Do you know what are sealed doors? Thats like blasting through the Stone wall at least half a meter strong. Maybe even comparable to Maul blast against Obi-Wan in the season 5, episode 1 that made collapse of the tunnel.

Later Revan blasted two times the Sith Emperor with the Force

As Meetra and Scourge battled the Guard, Revan charged toward the Emperor.

His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward. Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time. The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn’t even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready. Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form. There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward. He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him. The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy. Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks. The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source. It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan’s spine. The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head. Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack. A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been. Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him. Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan. The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp. Almost too weak to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech. A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid. T3 never stood a chance. The little droid exploded into a million pieces, internal circuits and external casing obliterated in a single instant.“No!” Revan screamed from the ground as bits of his friend rained down on him in the form of unrecognizable shrapnel.He tried to rise, but his injured body refused to respond. Instinctively, he called on the Force to give him strength and heal his wounds.

Taken from the Revan Novel. With the Force Revan fought against Sith Emperor.

Sith Emperor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maul (In the Force)

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@penderor:

Bastila: "The fact that you are so strong in the Force and have had such relatively little training could have terrible consequences. For you, and for everyone around you."

This isn't a feat. This is an entirely ambiguous statement of raw power that isn't leading anywhere.

Revan was able to persuade dozens or maybe hundreds of Jedi to join him and then he led ENTIRE Republic into the war. Already lost war was becoming a victorious one.

When Maul will change the fate of the known Galaxy three times with his leadership ability highly involved let me know, ok?

Oh right now I get it. So Revan is going to persuade Maul and Savage to let him win this fight?

He can lead the "ENTIRE" Republic all he wants. His leadership feats are entirely ambiguous and we don't know enough about them to suggest he showed any tactical ability that transfers over to a lightsaber duel.

When Revan actually has feats instead of ambiguous statements and stories that lead nowhere let me know, ok?

Zhar Lestin, the Jedi Master and member of the Jedi Council said that Revan was the best pupil he ever had as a student and aslo called him the future Champion of the Order. And it was in time when his other than combat abilities were not known.

Maul was stated as being one of the most skilled Sith lightsaber duelists in history. Their accolades do not even begin to compare.

One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between Jedi Knight and Sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the Battle for Naboo.

As a Sith devotee, Darth Maul drew his power from the dark side of the Force. He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.

The Official Star Wars Factfile #1

Anything else?

Revan also defeat in H2H combat the best Echani warrior and general in his times Yusannis.

Are you going to explain how this feat is impressive.. or what? Am I to now go away and research the Echani because you couldn't be bothered to expand on a feat? As far as I'm concerned this sentence is a bug on the windshield of what Maul is capable of.

This clearly shows that Revan had completely no TK problem with the blast. Doors could have weight easily from 500kg to 1000kg and they were sealed. Do you know what are sealed doors? Thats like blasting through the Stone wall at least half a meter strong. Maybe even comparable to Maul blast against Obi-Wan in the season 5, episode 1 that made collapse of the tunnel.

Great. Blasting doors open. This only really makes him comparable in TK to Maul who has ripped off a cliff face, or Savage who has destroyed a prison cell made of Mandalorian Iron (Beskar, a nigh-indestructible lightsaber resistant metal)

No Caption Provided

Next? You're also yet to cover how Revan even p*sses near the combat skill level of Maul and Savage.

Later Revan blasted two times the Sith Emperor with the Force

You should really read what you're quoting.

The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.

The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source. It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor.

The first time he blasted him, most of his strength was focused on attacking Revan's mind (IIRC, Revan was having help from Meetra in resisting mind assault at the time), and he was unprepared for the attack. Not impressive at all. If these kinds of feats were impressive I'd already have dropped Savage force choking Count Dooku while he was unprepared.

The second feat was a tutaminis feat where Revan deflected lightning. Yippee. Shame neither Maul or Savage use lightning. How does this help your argument?

Sith Emperor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maul (In the Force)

Not when he isn't paying attention lmao.

Anything else?..

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#47  Edited By Penderor

@i_like_swords: Yes i know what I am quoting. First blast was with the Force and then he sended him back with the lightsaber he deflected and redirected lightning bolt. Tell me when Maul will do something like that.

If its ambiguous statement with his leadership skill then I am going to the White House and I will tell Obama that I can crush whole Russia only with my brilliant brain and nice charisma. He sends with me all of USA army ? Why? Because I am a teenager that said to him that can win a war. Ambiguous?

He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.- Ok thats cute. But there is not said which Order they ment. This is most likely just the Rule of Two Order. Its not proof that they ment a ENTIRE Sith Order across its history.

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@penderor said:

@i_like_swords: Yes i know what I am quoting. First blast was with the Force and then he sended him back with the lightsaber he deflected and redirected lightning bolt. Tell me when Maul will do something like that.

It was explicitly stated that Vitiate was "unprepared" and "using much of his power" assaulting the mind of Revan. I'm sure Maul or Savage who have better telekinetic displays than Revan blowing a door open could Force push an unprepared and weakened target.

What.

Let me repeat myself. The actual details surrounding Revan leading the Republic forces are entirely scarce and we don't know how much he contributed to battles, if his tactics were even really called into use, how proficient his tactics were, or really much of anything because none of it was touched upon. And aside from that leading an army is in no way the same thing as engaging in a lightsaber duel. For some reason Revan supporters constantly bring up his army leading feats as some kind of proof of his personal martial ability and it just doesn't work. Not to mention I provided a more specific, detailed and impressive example of Maul leading an army anyway so Revan doesn't even have that advanage.

He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.- Ok thats cute. But there is not said which Order they ment. This is most likely just the Rule of Two Order. Its not proof that they ment a ENTIRE Sith Order across its history.

The quote doesn't even say "in the history of the order". It says this:

One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between Jedi Knight and Sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the Battle for Naboo.

As a Sith devotee, Darth Maul drew his power from the dark side of the Force. He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.

The Official Star Wars Factfile #1

The Sith Order has always been one order. The Banite Sith weren't a new order, they were just operating differently to how the Sith had always operated in order to avoid dying out.

So please tell me how this is "cute" when this alone completely outstrips anything Revan has been accoladed with in dueling skill?

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@i_like_swords: I never said he has really comparable lightsaber skills to Maul but dont try to compare him as a leader with Revan because its completely different class.

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@penderor said:

@i_like_swords: I never said he has really comparable lightsaber skills to Maul but dont try to compare him as a leader with Revan because its completely different class.

So what was the point of all the ambiguous story telling about Revan leading an army?

No, actually.. Revan's leadership and tactical feats are all ambiguous and off-panel, whereas Maul's are on-panel and detailed. Revan's big claim to fame of being a great leader is even outmatched.

Anything else?