Information
- Win is by death, KO, or incap
- No preparation
- Basic knowledge on each other
- Please refrain from posting your opinion on the match until it's done
Fight takes place in New York
CaV HTTK (Loki) VS Claymore1998 ( Doctor Strange)
Alright so the first thing we shall do is, get the game face on. ^_^
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Opening Move
Now that's done let's begin.
Stephen Strange, the master of the mystic art, is a formidable opponent as well as an extremely accomplished mystic user. While within the confines of his stories there are occasions where most of his powers are forgotten for the sake of the story itself, in a thread where he is allowed to fight to his best potential and not be bound by such crutches , he becomes an incredibly formidable opponent.
Rather than listing his individual stats I would jump straight to the point.
The first thing in the battle I'll have Stephen do is temporarily rob you of your eye sight. This will be a useful tactic because deprived of your sight Stephen gets an inherent advantage.
While this enchantment is temporary in nature and would only last for few minutes it would give Stephen a huge advantage from whence to dictate the battle.
What comes next is easy, speed.
One of the most important attribute in a battle is speed, while Stephen isn’t inherently slow and has fought vastly faster opponents than Loki and even have had them helpless in the battle like Silver Surfer, a few minutes of blindness allows Stephen to vastly increase his speed to a point Loki is going to have hard time even seeing him let alone mount a successful attack.
Say hello so Dr. Flash, erm, sorry I meant Dr. Strange with hyper-speed. ^_^
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Just to hammer in the advantage in speed, Stephen at this point was capable of moving and talking freely when it would normally take Captain America 100 years to even take a footstep. That's a very respectable speed regardless of what tier character you are debating.
This is also not the first time Stephen has demonstrated the said ability but merely the latest instance of him doing so.
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The Killing Blow
Now once Stephen has the inherent speed advantage there is a lot he could do against Loki.
Option # 1: Trap him inside the crimson bands of Cyttorak which would count as win via incapacitation as he did against hulk
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Option # 2: Attack Loki's mind through eye of Agamatto similar to what was done against Wanda, which would count as win via knock out.
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Option # 3: Stephen could simply summon the Old Ones like he did against marvel's version of pseudo justice league. The old one would simply suck the life force out of Loki thereby killing him, which would count as win via death.
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I'll end my turn here. I have no doubt you will have arguments against these and arguments for your character, but that's what CAV is all about.
Let's just have fun and may the best debater win.
Your turn buddy, hopefully the opening post wasn't disappointing ^_^
End Turn
I'll counter your argument (Which was quite impressive), and go into some things of my own,
First of all, Doctor Strange may be the sorcerer supreme, but Loki is every bit as skilled as he is, sometimes completing tasks which puts him above Strange. He's cast spells that have surprised beings like Odin in the past, so Stephen is going to be on his heels this whole fight. He's fighting someone who uses magic in a very tricky and dangerous way not caring on how he wins, as long as he achieves it. Loki also doesn't fight to his full potential, but when he does let's just say he is fully capable of matching or defeating Stephen like he has done in the past I believe.
That tactic would work on amateur sorcerers, but against someone like Loki, I doubt that will work, I mean he's very experienced and has done things to suggest that wouldn't work, but let's it did, do you not think Loki can easily counter that spell and reverse it's effect. I mean I don't have a scan of Loki actually reversing a blinding effect, but based off the amazing feat's he has done in his history, it shouldn't be even slightly troublesome.
I mean the guy can literally take off his head without even casting a spell that's how powerful his sorcery skills are, blindness isn't going to slow him down whether it's been cast or in him stopping it.
I'll even go an extra mile though.
Loki has cast spells which allowed him to silence Thor, and another time a spell which allowed Hemidal to not hear. If he can do stuff like silence people, I believe he can take away a blindness spell too.
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Heck Loki has even broke Seth (The Skyfather level God) spell which turned him into wood, so that blindness spell isn't going to be even a slight problem.
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Now you plan on speeding up Doctor Strange so you can proceed to do a magical speed-blitz to take down Stephen easily, although Stephen wouldn't do this as he's not even fighting someone who's really fast or relies heavily on speed, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he does. All Loki has to do is go intangible. Not even Doctor Doom's doombots could detect him when like this.
Being insanely fast isn't so nice when your opponent is untouchable, am I right? Your whole strategy kind of just went down the drain, but i'll still counter your "killing blows."
#1-The Crimson Band of Cyttorak have been broken multiple times, and I don't think Loki will even have to waste his energy (Not that it would take much) to get out of it. He can simply just teleport out if it's grip. Let's make this more fun though, Loki can even go as far as swapping locations with whoever he desires, here he simply swaps places with Thor. He can switch places with Stephen and put him in his own Crimson Bands of Cyttorak.
#2- Wanda has an extremely fragile mind, it's been entered far too often. Loki actually has done telepathic things too, like torment Norman Osborn in his own mind or show Thor show a horrible future.
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What's stopping him from going way further against Stephen?
#3 That is a possibility, and although Loki probably can't do anything to thing summoned, but he can still easily take Stephen out who was taken out by Iron Man's repulsor beam. Loki can easily do the same.
Now I think i'll get into some things of my own, and let me say they will cause Stephen trouble. One thing I would like to bring up is the massive durability difference between Stephen and Loki. I've always seen Stephen as like a Franklin Richards, loads of power, but can't really take a hit. Loki has gone on to take hits from Thor, yet Stephen while I believe amplified? Was taken out by a repulsor beam from Iron Man. Let's just say he better hope Loki goes easy on him with his magical/energy blasts as he's going to go down fairly quickly then.
Here Loki takes Thor's physical and Mandarin's energy blasts. This is something Stephen could never do. An advantage Loki has.
Two things that can come into play here is Loki's spells which can easily allow him to overpower Strange or keep him at a disadvantage. One of those would be summoning multiple clones at Strange causing him to go on the defensive side, and allowing Loki the time to cast whatever he wants.
He's used them against Thor.
Seeing Strange's durability, they can probably take him out given the opportunity.
Another way would be to increase his size to gigantic proportions, this could be from the effect of a spell or because of his Frost Giant background, but either way it's happened. With his gigantic size he's been capable of throwing Thor around, so I would think a strike upon Strange would knock him unconscious or kill him.
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Strange would be at a bad standpoint there, I think that's enough for now, your turn.
Round 2
He's cast spells that have surprised beings like Odin in the past, so Stephen is going to be on his heels this whole fight.
Impressive but Strange does fight beings like Dormammu, Nightmare, and Shuma Gorath on occasions. Odin isnt too high on the totem pole but lets continue with things that are relevant here ^_^
That tactic would work on amateur sorcerers, but against someone like Loki, I doubt that will work
Sorry but that doesn’t seem like an adequate argument and nothing in the spell suggests it only works on amateur sorcerer. Furthermore, it wasn’t the first time the spell was cast by Stephen Strange; to crank it up a notch he did the same against Mephisto who was likewise unable to see through the blinding spell.
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I think you would need something more concrete argument than saying Loki is an accomplished mage, so he could counter the spell. You'd need evidence i would think.
Now you plan on speeding up Doctor Strange so you can proceed to do a magical speed-blitz to take down Loki easily, all Loki has to do is go intangible.
Intangibility means very little against Stephen Strange ^_^
He has never had problem seeing or even manipulating intangibles, i.e. Astral Essence.
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Going back to a more recent event, Stephen fought the soul of the Ancient One, he defeated him and put his soul into a bottle.
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Intangibility means very little in the face of magic ^_^
Being insanely fast isn't so nice when your opponent is untouchable, am I right? Your whole strategy kind of just went down the drain, but i'll still counter your "killing blows."
It totally helps if your opponent is so very touchable ^_^
The Crimson Band of Cyttorak have been broken multiple times, and I don't think Loki will even have to waste his energy
Depends on how skill the person casting the spell is. In the instance presented the bands clearly holds Hulk in place without Hulk being able to breach it, and Hulk himself is not at all a weak character. That also wasnt the only instance Crimson Bands have been used to contain someone as powerful as the Hulk. Here is another instance.
The same Crimson Band was actually used to capture Galactus alongside his ship so its not always a given that crimson bands are easy to breach.
Loki can even go as far as swapping locations with whoever he desires, here he simply swaps places with Thor. He can switch places with Stephen and put him in his own Crimson Bands of Cyttorak.
This however is an excellent counter, I cant argue against this.
Stephen himself could easily teleport to so that's not a big deal for Stephen himself.
Wanda has an extremely fragile mind, it's been entered far too often. Loki actually has done telepathic things too, like torment Norman Osborn in his own mind or show Thor show a horrible future.
I was more hoping you'd come up with telepathic defense feat because Wanda isnt the only person Stephen has used TP against.
Another example Demonicus
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Or to an entire mass of people.
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An already weakened Stephen was able to fight and beat (or should i say stalemate because Stephen temporarily collapses himself 3 pages) Moondragon.
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He as also able to enter Sentry's mind
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I think I am going a bit overboard with Stephen's telepathy, I shall rather wait for your response to this ^_^
That is a possibility, and although Loki probably can't do anything to thing summoned, but he can still easily take Stephen out who was taken out by Iron Man's repulsor beam. Loki can easily do the same.
Here Stephen is already much faster than Loki for him to even hit him, or did you forget the speed part?
Furthermore, you really think blocking Loki's attack would be a problem to Stephen who can block attacks from:
Silver Surfer
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Galactus
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Dormammu
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And a lot more, but this should get the point across ^_^
Here Loki takes Thor's physical and Mandarin's energy blasts. This is something Stephen could never do.
He doesnt have to take it on his body, he can block them. He's fought godlikes all the time. While there are a lot more instance we've already got few above that would suffice for now ^_^
One of those would be summoning multiple clones at Strange causing him to go on the defensive side, and allowing Loki the time to cast whatever he wants.
Stephen himself can do so, or at least something similar. He was able to create multiple copies of his astral self.
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So if Loki multiples, and Stephen massive speed doesn't help him, he has ways around it.
Another way would be to increase his size to gigantic proportions, this could be from the effect of a spell or because of his Frost Giant background, but either way it's happened. With his gigantic size he's been capable of throwing Thor around, so I would think a strike upon Strange would knock him unconscious or kill him.
Strange would be at a bad standpoint there, I think that's enough for now, your turn.
There is an easy solution to that problem, reduce Loki down to size ^_^
Stephen can do that.
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Pocket size if you like em ^_^
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Your turn.
but Strange does fight beings like Dormammu, Nightmare, and Shuma Gorath on occasions. Odin isnt too high on the totem pole but lets continue with things that are relevant here ^_^
Hmm, only Shuma Gorath is more powerful than Odin, Nightmare is inferior and Dormammu is around the same power level. I don't see why Odin isn't seen as that powerful. Also Strange fights beings of that level usually by invoking power from beings much more powerful than himself, while Loki does so with his own power, remember that.
Sorry but that doesn’t seem like an adequate argument and nothing in the spell suggests it only works on amateur sorcerer.
That may be true, but the idea was to show that Loki wouldn't go down so easily to a spell so simple, he is vastly more experienced than Strange is with magic. (Loki's been alive for thousands of years)
Furthermore, it wasn’t the first time the spell was cast by Stephen Strange; to crank it up a notch he did the same against Mephisto who was likewise unable to see through the blinding spell.
Mephisto isn't someone who utilizes magic in the same way Loki does. I'm not even sure if he has magical powers in such a way, hardly a good counter just because he's more powerful than Loki.
I think you would need something more concrete argument than saying Loki is an accomplished mage, so he could counter the spell. You'd need evidence i would think.
I literally showed Loki breaking Seth's spell while being unable to move or talk. I think that's more than enough to show he can deal with a blindness spell, I mean the guy was turned into wood and he came back from it. That should have very well be enough to show such a spell is below Loki.
The man broke a spell which was caused to Bor many millennia's ago, a blindness spell is below Loki.
Although Loki hasn't directly been effected by such a thing, so I can find an exact counter to that.
Intangibility means very little against Stephen Strange ^_^
He has never had problem seeing or even manipulating intangibles, i.e. Astral Essence.
Cool, so has Loki. Seems intangibility won't be a problem for either of them.
It totally helps if your opponent is so very touchable ^_^
Loki can block himself from Mephisto, good luck with Stephen seeing him. Mephisto could only detect a presence, but didn't know who or where he was.
Depends on how skill the person casting the spell is. In the instance presented the bands clearly holds Hulk in place without Hulk being able to breach it, and Hulk himself is not at all a weak character. That also wasnt the only instance Crimson Bands have been used to contain someone as powerful as the Hulk. Here is another instance.
Hulk is using physical strength to break the Crimson bands of Cyttorak, Loki would be using magical blasts which I believe can do better than strength. Loki has extremely powerful energy/magical blasts, which are capable of sending the whole Thor Corps scrambling. Thing is he doesn't even seem to be trying all too much here either.
Strange may be able to call forth some powerful bands, but nothing Loki can't eventually break, his blasts are incredibly powerful and if I might add they hit Stephen he may get knocked flat out. He's not going to be able to block every single thing tossed in his direction as he's not going to be aware of it all. A blast has even sent Seth pain, Stephen's constructs aren't going to last long against the power Loki possesses.
The same Crimson Band was actually used to capture Galactus alongside his ship so its not always a given that crimson bands are easy to breach.
I believe that was Classic Doctor Strange who accomplished such a feat, not the more recent of years one. Power levels are vastly different.
This however is an excellent counter, I cant argue against this.
Stephen himself could easily teleport to so that's not a big deal for Stephen himself.
Yes it was well planned out :P
Although that's true.
I was more hoping you'd come up with telepathic defense feat because Wanda isnt the only person Stephen has used TP against.
Loki has never been affected by telepathy, I don't really have the scans, but I believe he's resisted it every single time, or it just plain out didn't work. How is Stephen's telepathy resistance though because was he not the one who was recently possessed by Thanos's henchman? Or when Xavier shut down all the Avengers and X-Men's mind? Also no offense, but you shouldn't use Classic Strange feats as he was vastly more powerful than he was from like the 2000s +. Even that Sentry feat, I remember Sentry allowing him into his mind, and than he pushed him out afterwards too. Not too impressive. Although if it's impressive you want, it's what you shall get. Loki was capable of going into Odin's subconscious.
Here Stephen is already much faster than Loki for him to even hit him, or did you forget the speed part?
Let's take into account the fact that it's extrememy unlikely Strange wouldn't amplify his speed when he's not facing a speedster.
Furthermore, you really think blocking Loki's attack would be a problem to Stephen who can block attacks from:
So your telling me that Stephen is capable of blocking every single attack Loki conjures up on him. I mean I agree he can block some, but the range of attacks Loki has, along with his numbers, and Illusions, and overall power will allow him to land some, and he doesn't need much to down Stephen who has poor durability.
Stephen isn't the only one who can avoid attacks.
He doesnt have to take it on his body, he can block them. He's fought godlikes all the time. While there are a lot more instance we've already got few above that would suffice for now ^_^
You've only shown him blocking with force-fields or using magical powers to counter. Let's seem take on a full on blast or strike to his body.
Stephen himself can do so, or at least something similar. He was able to create multiple copies of his astral self.
Well I mean Astral versions are impressive, but that won't help him in his physical form much, will it? Loki can summon his clones to subdue Stephen, or give him time to plot, or cast a spell.
So if Loki multiples, and Stephen massive speed doesn't help him, he has ways around it.
Not really from what you've shown thus far.
There is an easy solution to that problem, reduce Loki down to size ^_^
Stephen can do that.
Just like how Stephen can teleport out of Loki's swapping teleportation, Loki can grow in size if Stephen shrinks him down.
Pocket size if you like em ^_^
That will be Stephen's body when Loki is finished with him.
Your turn.
That's an awesome reply and the debate is going round smoothly. It's been fun lets continue. You are pretty good at this aren't you ^_^
I am relatively new to battle forum but this has been pretty fun so far, lets keep it this way ^_^
Hmm, only Shuma Gorath is more powerful than Odin, Nightmare is inferior and Dormammu is around the same power level. I don't see why Odin isn't seen as that powerful.
I fear you misunderstand my intent. Argument wasn’t necessarily to suggest Nightmare or Dormammu are Odin's superior but produced in a vein to retaliate that just because Loki's magic affect Odin does not mean much against Stephen given he himself fighting being on this level quite frequently.
Also Strange fights beings of that level usually by invoking power from beings much more powerful than himself, while Loki does so with his own power, remember that.
While this is true I do not see why this would be relevant. Invoking powers from mystical principalities is the core of Stephen ability and something he has in every battle he is a part of. This duel should be no different.
That may be true, but the idea was to show that Loki wouldn't go down so easily to a spell so simple, he is vastly more experienced than Strange is with magic. (Loki's been alive for thousands of years)
This is another part of your reply that I disagree with. Loki might be older than Stephen but that does not inherently suggest he is a more powerful magic. In fact given the list of people Stephen has fought throughout the year he should be clearly more powerful than Loki and I shall try my level best to try and enforce this in our debate.
Mephisto isn't someone who utilizes magic in the same way Loki does. I'm not even sure if he has magical powers in such a way, hardly a good counter just because he's more powerful than Loki.
Evidence against Mephisto was brought forward against the argument that Loki is a powerful mage or than he is older.
I literally showed Loki breaking Seth's spell while being unable to move or talk. I think that's more than enough to show he can deal with a blindness spell, I mean the guy was turned into wood and he came back from it. That should have very well be enough to show such a spell is below Loki.
I disagree because the two spell are vastly different in nature. At least to the best of my knowledge concealment spell has never been bypassed by anyone.
But I do not think we are going to agree on this and we should wait for the voters to decide.
Loki can block himself from Mephisto, good luck with Stephen seeing him. Mephisto could only detect a presence, but didn't know who or where he was.
There is an easy counter to this, the all seeing eye of Agamatto.
Furthermore, Stephen has an inherent ability to see and track magic which would make it impossible for Loki to even hide from his gage.
Doctor Strange – The Other further shows that it's not possible to either run or hide from Stephen given his ability to track magic.
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The idea is even further enforced during Infinity Abyss where Stephen demonstrates that he can see through any illusions.
"Dispelling even a masterfully induced false perception is a simple matter."
Given Stephen's possession of mystic eye of Agamatto and his inherent abilities makes it almost impossible for even Loki to hide from his gaze.
We had more or less a consensus in regards to crimson bands of Cyttorak not working on Loki so I will not directly try and counter your reply in that regards.
his blasts are incredibly powerful and if I might add they hit Stephen he may get knocked flat out. He's not going to be able to block every single thing tossed in his direction as he's not going to be aware of it all.
I disagree.
Stephen is fast enough and skill enough to match and tank every single mystical attack for Loki regardless of how long the battle last. It is also something he has consistently done throughout his career.
Let's look at few examples. Since you agree on Dormammu's mystic proficiency lets use him as the primary example.
The new 3 scans per issue rules makes it hard for me to post the entire battle so I shall try and showcase it with 3 scans and explanation.
Stephen fights Dormammu on Earth after Dormammu defeats the Ancient One. Stephen is able to match, tank and retaliate against Dormammu attack and eventually overpower and banishes Dormammu.
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Stephen against fights Dormammu for a prolonged period, matches every of Dormammu's attack and eventually banishes him.
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In crux, being able to match a powerful mystic being and defeat in is something Stephen Strange has done throughout his career.
One or two low showings of Stephen's durability should not be the cornerstone of our debate, I would think.
Furthermore, since staggering Seth was brought up here is Stephen staggering Galactus ^_^
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I believe that was Classic Doctor Strange who accomplished such a feat, not the more recent of years one. Power levels are vastly different.
Being able to pull Galactus's ship? That wasn’t Stephen Strange but rather Cyttotak. The reason I referenced that feat was to show just because Crimson Bands of Cyttorak has been shown less powerful in some instances does not inherently mean they are weak when its cast by a powerful enough user.
Also I disagree on the whole Classic / Current Dr. Strange distinction but that's a debate for a different day.
Loki has never been affected by telepathy, I don't really have the scans, but I believe he's resisted it every single time, or it just plain out didn't work.
Lets agree to disagree then ^_^
How is Stephen's telepathy resistance though because was he not the one who was recently possessed by Thanos's henchman? Or when Xavier shut down all the Avengers and X-Men's mind?
The former wasn't a telepathic attack, it was a parasite living inside Stephen. The later did not have Stephen on the battle field unless we are talking 2 different instance.
Also no offense, but you shouldn't use Classic Strange feats as he was vastly more powerful than he was from like the 2000s +.
That is not true but no matter. Every single feat I have brought forward from the classic era, I have reinforced it with a feat from current era too. You are welcome to look back on our debate and see for yourself.
Even that Sentry feat, I remember Sentry allowing him into his mind, and than he pushed him out afterwards too. Not too impressive. Although if it's impressive you want, it's what you shall get. Loki was capable of going into Odin's subconscious.
You are connecting two different feats. Sentry might not have resisted it but it does shows Stephen telepathic abilities. Another similar example would be when Stephen entered Silver Surfer's mind. The reason two of these feats are mentioned is because they are both pretty powerful telepaths, while Sentry's telepathy might be dormant Silver Surfer is different.
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Also did you have the issue number for Odin's feat because as I recall Odin was powerless when Seth enters Asgard and he only later regains power towards the end of the story followed by him defeating Seth. I fear you might have forgotten the context surrounding the said feat.
Let's take into account the fact that it's extrememy unlikely Strange wouldn't amplify his speed when he's not facing a speedster.
I disagree. If we are to account for unlikely hood, then most of Loki fight shows him losing against Thor. In fact just about every time Loki has fought Thor without an amp he has lost to him, barring a handful few. On the other hand, just about every time Stephen has fought Dormammu outside of his realm he has won.
I do not think unlikelihood should dictate what can and can't be used in a CAV but we can agree to disagree.
Furthermore, speeding up isnt Stephen's only means to make it so that Loki cannot do much against him, another would include his ability to manipulate time itself. Admit the battle between Void and the Avengers / X men etc, Stephen stops time around him and Reed Richard so he can explain the true nature of Sentry.
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So your telling me that Stephen is capable of blocking every single attack Loki conjures up on him. I mean I agree he can block some, but the range of attacks Loki has, along with his numbers, and Illusions, and overall power will allow him to land some, and he doesn't need much to down Stephen who has poor durability.
As addressed earlier yes that is my assertion. Furthermore his illusions are not going to work on Stephen as demonstrated earlier and Loki overall power would make absolutely no difference.
Lets takes some example, Stephen fights and defeats Shuma Gorath himself on Earth dimension.
While in this story Shuma as weakened; it was mentioned that he has enough powerful to consume the earth. Furthermore, we are talking about a being who is powered by an entire universe filled with magic being weakened shouldn’t take a lot away from him.
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Weakened or otherwise, a being so powerful that a fraction of his powers from a thousand realm away is enough to nearly kill Gaea, is going to be more powerful than Loki correct?
Other example, Stephen flies right inside the dimension Pi, takes the creator of the said dimension head on and defeat him.
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In crux, neither Loki power level, nor his illusion, nor his numbers (thanks to the ability to either speed himself up or manipulate time) is going to give Loki any advantage whatsoever.
You've only shown him blocking with force-fields or using magical powers to counter. Let's seem take on a full on blast or strike to his body.
While i do not understand why force-field or mystic power to counter attack would not be available to Stephen for this battle, very well.
First a reference to an obscenely big feat from Stephen Strange - surviving the big bang ^_^
Stephen takes a massive attack from Dormammu head on, falls to the ground but is unharmed.
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Well I mean Astral versions are impressive, but that won't help him in his physical form much, will it?
Why not? Stephen in astral or physical form is capable of using mystical attack to fight. Sure he couldn't you know punch and kick his opponents, but that's not something Stephen engages in anyways.
Stephen's astral self was fighting Dormammu after he was stripped of his own body by Dormammu
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Loki can summon his clones to subdue Stephen, or give him time to plot, or cast a spell.
This should not detriment Stephen at all because of:
1. Stephen own ability to summon astral clones
2. His ability to speed himself up
3. Time manipulation
Stephen, even in his astral self, could simply turn Loki unconscious through pyschic sedative ^_^
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Stephen ability mess with people mind isn't inherently a telepathic attack but magic in nature, the scans below might help.
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Stephen could also trap Loki inside his own consciousness.
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Or slice and dice his body apart with Lightning
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He was able to do something similar to Ghost Rider , though he eventually lost against Zarathos.
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Just like how Stephen can teleport out of Loki's swapping teleportation, Loki can grow in size if Stephen shrinks him down.
Fair enough though the argument was brought forward because you were arguing Loki would grow in size and strength to gain an advantage over Stephen.
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So the crux of my argument thus far:
1. Loki normal bag of trick do not work on Stephen such as illusions.
2. Stephen can fight and defeat Loki in a head on battle, after all the numerous instance of Stephen matching and defeating Dormammu presented in the thread should suffice.
3. Stephen ability to speed himself up as well as manipulate time give him additional advantages.
4. Loki cannot hide his presence from Stephen thanks to the all seeing eye of Agamatto as well as Stephen inherent ability track magic and dispel both mystic and psychic illusions.
I will go into detail about additional versatility as the debate progresses.
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Your turn ^_^
That's an awesome reply and the debate is going round smoothly. It's been fun lets continue. You are pretty good at this aren't you ^_^
I am relatively new to battle forum but this has been pretty fun so far, lets keep it this way ^_^
I agree I'm having fun with this, one of the best debates I've been in on this Vine, let's keep it up :P Your a great debater yourself !
I fear you misunderstand my intent. Argument wasn’t necessarily to suggest Nightmare or Dormammu are Odin's superior but produced in a vein to retaliate that just because Loki's magic affect Odin does not mean much against Stephen given he himself fighting being on this level quite frequently.
Okay I understand what you mean, but i'm trying to say that Loki usually combats them by invoking power from other powerful beings, while Loki does it with his own power. I'm not saying it makes him weaker, but Loki combats beings of that level without preparation or outside help unlike Stephen usually does.
While this is true I do not see why this would be relevant. Invoking powers from mystical principalities is the core of Stephen ability and something he has in every battle he is a part of. This duel should be no different.
It isn't really relevant I agree, I'm just saying Loki has done things that make him more just as powerful with his own power.
This is another part of your reply that I disagree with. Loki might be older than Stephen but that does not inherently suggest he is a more powerful magic. In fact given the list of people Stephen has fought throughout the year he should be clearly more powerful than Loki and I shall try my level best to try and enforce this in our debate.
Loki has done things that easily show he's as powerful as Strange, there is nothing Strange has done that Loki hasn't. Power isn't everything though, Loki is far more cunning and is going to use tricks and fighting dirty to win against Stephen. To showcase how powerful Loki is, here is something he has done.
Loki has made Deadpool nigh invincible with a spell. (He seemed to do this with ease) Just take in the things he tanks here.
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wo
I disagree because the two spell are vastly different in nature. At least to the best of my knowledge concealment spell has never been bypassed by anyone.
But I do not think we are going to agree on this and we should wait for the voters to decide.
Fair enough, let me give you an alternative then. What if Loki casts a spell which slows down Stephen's mind making it harder for him to complete spells, which is his main focus in attack? He would be in a horrible position and Loki can do whatever he pleases to him. If this happens, the fight will be over fairly quickly.
The only reason Thor got through is his will is incredibly high (allowing him to break the spell), and magic doesn't affect him all too much unless it's incredibly powerful. Stephen may be a powerful sorcerer, but he is still affected by magic.
There is an easy counter to this, the all seeing eye of Agamatto.
Furthermore, Stephen has an inherent ability to see and track magic which would make it impossible for Loki to even hide from his gage.
Okay this is a good counter, but it's not like Stephen is going to use it right away, he's going to fall to Loki's illusions long enough for the trickster to attack or prepare something. He can easily make a spell to make Stephen see the Ancient One or something distracting him for a moment or a couple of seconds, which is enough time for Loki to do whatever he wants.
Here he makes it so Thunderstrike looks like Xemnu to She-Hulk and she attacks him.
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Possible outcome? I think so.
We had more or less a consensus in regards to crimson bands of Cyttorak not working on Loki so I will not directly try and counter your reply in that regards.
Alright.
disagree.
Stephen is fast enough and skill enough to match and tank every single mystical attack for Loki regardless of how long the battle last. It is also something he has consistently done throughout his career.
Highly unlikely. Loki wouldn't block everyone of Strange's attacks, and if it was so, then this would be no point to this debate as Stephen wouldn't get struck, but let's take a look at your scans presented, shall we?
Two instances where Stephen counters every attack isn't going to showcase for his whole career being tagged before, not to mention Loki fights entirely different from Dormmammu. There is also the fact that Stephen fights Dorm so much he knows how he fights, while he's barely encountered Loki much to my knowledge. Let's see what Stephen will do when Loki sends loads of clones his way.
Dormammu doesn't fight like that, Stephen would get overwhelmed. He can easily be tagged with strategies like this.
Furthermore, since staggering Seth was brought up here is Stephen staggering Galactus ^_^
Seth was shown in pain, Galactus just seemed to tumble backwards, but nice feat regardless.
Being able to pull Galactus's ship? That wasn’t Stephen Strange but rather Cyttotak. The reason I referenced that feat was to show just because Crimson Bands of Cyttorak has been shown less powerful in some instances does not inherently mean they are weak when its cast by a powerful enough user.
Also I disagree on the whole Classic / Current Dr. Strange distinction but that's a debate for a different day.
Okay.
Lets agree to disagree then ^_^
Alrightyyy.
The former wasn't a telepathic attack, it was a parasite living inside Stephen. The later did not have Stephen on the battle field unless we are talking 2 different instance.
The parasite still took over his mind, and okay maybe I was wrong on the second part.
That is not true but no matter. Every single feat I have brought forward from the classic era, I have reinforced it with a feat from current era too. You are welcome to look back on our debate and see for yourself.
Yeah, you are right.
I'll continue later.
Hello again ^_^
I understand that you have not completed your entire reply yet but since I am awake and have nothing to do thought perhaps I should reply to this (so much for being a productive citizen of the world >.< ). All I ask is that you continue your argument on the next post so it's easier for me to address newer parts of the argument. It's nice to see our debate is finally getting some attention but let's not make this debate too long else we risk not getting enough votes.
I agree I'm having fun with this, one of the best debates I've been in on this Vine, let's keep it up :P Your a great debater yourself !
Thank you and I am extremely glad to hear that. To me CAV is all about learning about new characters, practicing / improving the debating skill and above all else having fun. I am glad it's not only me who is enjoying the debate and I shall do my level best to keep it way.
Okay I understand what you mean, but i'm trying to say that Loki usually combats them by invoking power from other powerful beings, while Loki does it with his own power. I'm not saying it makes him weaker, but Loki combats beings of that level without preparation or outside help unlike Stephen usually does.
That's more or less where my disagreement stems from. Characters have their own unique power set, for example Silver Surfer's power set is to manipulate the surrounding energies of the universe which are aptly named cosmic energy. In the same vein Stephen's power set is conjuring and manipulating mystic entities from principalities and invoking spells. That should not be seen as an outside help because that is a primary part of Stephen's power set as the sorcerer supreme.
Loki has done things that easily show he's as powerful as Strange, there is nothing Strange has done that Loki hasn't.
I disagree but this disagreement is better settled outside of the debate as there are other more relevant arguments to be brought up. Besides there is always the risk of dragging this debate too long.
What if Loki casts a spell which slows down Stephen's mind making it harder for him to complete spells, which is his main focus in attack? He would be in a horrible position and Loki can do whatever he pleases to him. If this happens, the fight will be over fairly quickly.
I disagree. Firstly Loki does not boast a speed advantage in this battle to have the luxury of making the first move. Secondly, should the said spell be cast, Stephen can easily counter with speeding himself up as demonstrated in the first response.
Lastly Stephen himself is capable of casting spell similar in nature, for example the spell of distortion. When cast the spell has the ability to distort both physical body and perception. Stephen, in his battle with Dormammu demonstrates he has the ability to both cast and overcome the said spell.
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Furthermore, while Loki has the ability to slow down Stephen's perception, a move Stephen can easily overcome; Stephen has the luxury of manipulating time itself. Does Loki have any pertinent counter to Stephen outright freezing time? That should give Stephen all the time he needs to cast as powerful a spell as he would like.
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Being able to outright stop time trumps slowing someone's perception, wouldn’t you agree?
Okay this is a good counter, but it's not like Stephen is going to use it right away, he's going to fall to Loki's illusions long enough for the trickster to attack or prepare something. He can easily make a spell to make Stephen see the Ancient One or something distracting him for a moment or a couple of seconds, which is enough time for Loki to do whatever he wants.
Interesting argument but as previously mentioned casting away an illusion is an easy task for Sorcerer Supreme. Furthermore, Stephen himself is no slouch in the illusion casting department. Let me illustrate this using a fight from Infinity Abyss. As the scans below will demonstrate Moondragon tried casting illusion to gain an advantage against Stephen, which Stephen retaliated by shattering the illusion and casting his own.
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Two instances where Stephen counters every attack isn't going to showcase for his whole career being tagged before, not to mention Loki fights entirely different from Dormmammu. There is also the fact that Stephen fights Dorm so much he knows how he fights, while he's barely encountered Loki much to my knowledge. Let's see what Stephen will do when Loki sends loads of clones his way.
Like I mentioned earlier Stephen is both fast and proficient enough to block and counter every single spell Loki can cast. Since this ability is brought into question let me take this opportunity to demonstrate Stephen's ability to react in a battle.
Furthermore, Stephen can simply create mystic shields around to him block said attack from Loki.
Or simply create a shield around his entire body
Another example of him doing so against Galactus.
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In regards to clones, as mentioned in the earlier reply, Stephen has plenty of counter:
1. Create astral clones of himself
2. Speed himself up to a point Loki wouldn’t even be able to perceive him
3. Stop time around him.
I personally cannot imagine why Loki would gain an advantage through numbers given the aforementioned abilities Stephen has but I fear we will not agree on this part. I think it's more prudent to agree to disagree.
Seth was shown in pain, Galactus just seemed to tumble backwards, but nice feat regardless.
Galactus actually fell all the way down destroying few skyscrapers after the said attack but fair enough ^_^
The parasite still took over his mind, and okay maybe I was wrong on the second part.
That's vastly different than a normal telepathic attack because the parasite was inside his body controlling him. Once the parasite was ripped out by the Builders he was back to normal.
I shall let you continue from here on =)
Also you haven't said anything in regards to Stephen summoning old ones? I am guessing you must have missed that from my previous argument.
@claymore1998: @jestersmiles: I shall continue this soon.
@heirtothekingdom said:
@claymore1998: @jestersmiles: I shall continue this soon.
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