CAV: Highaccuser vs Albertpythagoras cosmic teams VOTING

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Sy8000

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#1  Edited By Sy8000

Highaccuser's team:

Kyle Rayner

Amazo(red tornados body)

Alan Scott

Mirror Master

Professor Zoom

Albertpythagoras' team:

Etrigan

Shazam (Billy)

Hal Jordan

Vegitto

Ghost Rider(johnny)

Asura (episodes 18-22)

Setting: Empty city with many mirrors

In character

No bloodlust

No BFR.

Amazo only has the powers he mimicked in that form.

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ZeroPlus

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Should be good (yeah I said it first).

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dondave

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SOB

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@albertphytagoras Alright. Let's get some intros.

Professor Zoom

Eobard Thwane is from the 25th century, home of booster gold. He was obsessed with Barry Allen and managed to travel to his century, only to appear in a time period where Barry was dead. As a result, he went mad and swore revenge, ultimately making himself Barry Allens equal in power.

During Flash: Rebirth he became even more powerful by creating and bonding with the negative speed force. This didn't nessecarily make him faster, but it gave him better speed force control than even Wally as well as time manipulation. During Flashpoint, he became a temporal anomaly and as such can no longer be affected by time or time manipulation.

Here he has a lightspeed battle with every speedster. I left out some unnessecary bits considering it's a giant fight.

And that's a shortened version of it.

Also, he can "steal time" from people, effectively aging them to dust.

As well as completely remove them from the timestream.

He's also fought Hal(who's on your team) a few times before. This is one of them:

Easily blitzes him and Superman.

Alan Scott

Alan Scott is the first green lantern. His powers are completely different and far greater than the other ones. His powers come from the starheart, a collection of magical energy from the previous universe gathered by the guardians.

From years of using this power, Alan has became made of his own green flame and is now a being of pure energy. He is powered by his own will but does not require a ring. He is essentially whatever he believes himself to be. Mr. Terrific can explain it better than me:

Alan has displayed enough power to do serious damage to immensly powerful beings. He's gone blow-for-blow with Mordru, who's soloed the entire JSA multiple times:

This is a pretty good way of showcasing the gap between him and other lanterns. This is rookie Kyle, but the point still comes across.

He's fought Etrigan before. I don't have scans of the whole fight, but Alan was able to blind and restrain him.

I have much more for Alan. Trust me, he's a bigger deal than you think.

Amazo

Amazo is an android created by Anthony Ivo with the intent of destroying the justice league. He has the ability to copy the powers of any being he encounters. There have been many versions of Amazo, I'm using the version that inhabited Red Tornados body.

For this CAV he won't mimic the powers of anyone on either team, but he still has an enourmous repetoir. He's used the powers of:

Parasite, Green Lantern, and Atom:

Firestorm:

Wally West. Black Lightning. Black Canary. Batman. Red Arrow. All in one lightspeed fight:

Wonder Woman:

Superman:

Zatanna:

So he's an extremely versatile team buster.

Mirror Master

Mirror Master is part of the rouges, a collection of underestimated blue collar flash villains. There have been two Mirror Masters, I'm using Even McCulloch, as he used his capablilities in much smarter ways. He uses tech which allows him to exist in the "mirror world". He has no need to be physically present anywhere. He can manipulate refections and light on a scale that borderlines reality warping.

His teleportation isn't easily countered. He can be anywhere there's light and a reflection. Including eyes.

He can hide in mirrors easily. He can also create Mirror dupes of your team or himself.

He's flooded a whole city with these dupes:

He could possibly solo your team by BFR, but that's not allowed. Instead he'll just turn them to glass.

Your team has no answer for him. I haven't even gotten into his illusions.

I won't go into Kyle because I'm pretty sure everyone knows what he can do. His feats will come up when needed.

Your move.

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Kingant27

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Looks good, tag me please.

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Albertphytagoras

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#6  Edited By Albertphytagoras

Fine this is going to be hard.

But lets start...

First of all... here goes the heavyhitter.

Asura from Asuras wrath.

This guy is what you get when you combine Hulk, Goku and Superman.

In Episode 18, he was so powerfull, that he defeated a being that make look continents insignificant.

Loading Video...

Then he fought a being that was escentially the creator of his universe.

This guy wasent omnipotent... but he is above solar system and near universal.

Loading Video...
Loading Video...

Now for the end... At full power Asura was easily solar system level and was masivley FTL.

Now for the rest of my team...

Here are some feats of Cap.Marvel and Hal.

For Hal well...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-422418-parallax-insane-hal-jordan-respect-thread.HTML

He solo the crops and become a universe+++ tier, as seen in the events of Zero hour.

Now for Batson...

http://www.comicvine.com/billy-batson/4005-2350/forums/captain-marvel-shazam-respect-thread-and-feats-660394/

He is a Superman level character, hangs out with the JL and he have an historial of going toe toe with the Spectre (a character that can stomp Five dimensional imps and many magic themed heroes).

Now here comes Vegitto:

Loading Video...

He is easily above planet busters like Frieza and potential solar system buster like Cell.

Plus he went against a being with a power way above the planetary range.

If we go by powerscaling he is near light speed and have planetary durabilty (at the very least).

Ghost rider is a nightmare for "bad guys" thanks to the penance stare.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/ghost-rider-tribute-1457426/

Etrigan is a beast, he fough people like Superman and is respected by Darkseid and Dr fate; and went against characters like the great evil beast.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-476393-respect-the-demon-etrigan.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-441932-respect-the-great-evil-beast.html

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#7  Edited By dondave

Lookin' Good

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Albertphytagoras

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@albertphytagoras: I'll get to this later.

BTW, posting links to respect thread won't earn you votes especially when most of the links are dead. ZHP shouldn't be brought up.

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@albertphytagoras: Alright.

In lack of good teamwork on my team, we'll divide and conquer.

Asura is your heavy hitter? Amazo should still be able to handle him fairly easily.

The entire league failed to defeat Amazo on his own, despite being highly backed up by Amazo's jobbing. Amazo can use many powers at once, so even if asura is more powerful than any of his component powers(which I doubt because of wally west), he can't beat the whole team.

Examples of Amazo multitasking with powers:

Dropping most of the league with the powers of black canary, superman, firestorm and GL.

Amazo channels the whole leagues strength to easily overpower Wonder Woman. "He's stronger than me and Clark put together".

Not to mention a number of his individual powers can handle Asura on their own. Firestorm can restrain him in titanium, Zatanna can immobilize him like she did despero(I don't care how strong Asura is, he's not as strong as Despero), Hal can drop him with TP, and Wally can IMP him. Amazo can do it all much better.

Not to mention Asura will be constantly drained during the fight with Parasites powers. He's going down hard.

Next, Vegitto. I know the least about him, so I won't take any chances. Mirror Master is handling him. Vegitto may be hard to handle physically, but he can be turned into glass just like anything else. And the stuff turning him into glass? Beams of light. Unless he's FTL enough to handle light blasts from every reflection around him, he's done for.

That's certainly not all Even can do. His hypnosis will prevent Vegitto from seeing him coming.

And even if he has a resistance to transmution, no amount of durability can protect someone from having their reflection stabbed.

Now that that's taken care of, the rest of your team will fall seperately.

Professor Zoom will deal with Hal. He's done it before with only moderate difficulty. The best Hal can hope to do is stall him a little.

This is how their fights go:

Hal was getting his ass kicked till some other speedsters arrived. Spoiler! He kicks their asses to.

Alan Scott will handle Johnny. Alan does very well against magic beings. He's managed to deal serious damage to mordru whie holding back. Understand, at the time mordru had absorbed the powers of Arion(a high-tier mystic), and Nabu, a skyfather level being.

Mordru can normally defeat an amped shazam while weakened and crush fifth dimensional Imps, so no one on you're team can take a hit like that.

Kyle will deal with Etrigan and Shazam. Or more specifically, restrain them for a while. I know Kyle can't beat both them alone, but he can keep them from affecting the rest of the fight.

Kyle's managed to restrain the entire CSA for 2 days on the moon. Ultraman spent that whole time hammering on his construct with no effect.

Once my teams done with yours, we'll overwhelm them.

Basically:

Amazo will fight Asura and overpower him with his sheer versality.

Mirror Master will take care of Vegitto. Vegitto is a physical threat, and physically, MM can't be touched.

Prof Zoom will blitz Hal to oblivion.

Alan will overpower Johnny. Understand, Hal isn't lantern level, he's surfer or Prime level.

Kyle will hold off shazam and etrigan as long as needed.

Your move.

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Albertphytagoras

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@highaccuser:

Fine... first of all...

Amazo Overpowering Asura?...

NO, Asura went against a being that was near multi galaxy.

I cant see Amazo. defeating him, despite being a JL buster.

He can easily screw planets that are way big than earth.

Now for characters like Zoom and Mirror... really. I can see Vegitto, defeating Mirror master via destructive capacity and mystical durability.

Now for Alan... i can see characters like Etrigan (Superman level, fight against cosmic forces, etc) defeating him.

Kyle is a beast with is feats like holding Planets and preventing Supernovas. However Hal, have showed feats like defeating Krona and screwing the whole JL, that should give him the edge here.

I can see Zoom, Amazo and Alan as the mayor problems of my team.

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@albertphytagoras: I'm surprised your doing this again, but if ashura is galaxy busting level if have to us star heart Alan, who was nearing galactic level. This is a herald level cav, not for cosmic beings.

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Albertphytagoras

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@highaccuser:

I never said Asura was galaxy level.

I just say that he can fight beings that are way above in the cosmic scale (solar system)

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@albertphytagoras: you can't take on galaxy busters without being similarly powerful. Silver surfer isn't taking on Odin and such.

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cosmicallyaware1

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nice match guys. keep it going..........

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Pope052

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#17  Edited By Pope052
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Albertphytagoras

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#19  Edited By reikai
No Caption Provided

Not involving myself here.

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Sy8000

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@albertphytagoras: ignoring the fact you haven't addressed ashras power levels, I'll get to this on Wednesday.

Also, if you want voters, post scans.

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I`m keeping my eye on this one :)

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@albertphytagoras:

Fine... first of all...

Amazo Overpowering Asura?...

NO, Asura went against a being that was near multi galaxy.

I cant see Amazo. defeating him, despite being a JL buster.

He can easily screw planets that are way big than earth.

I'm gonna need a lot more than this. Evidence and reasons are required or these are void statements.

I don't care how powerful he is. He can be TP'd unless you prove otherwise.

That's not Hal, that's Pieface having done it on Hals instructions, and Amazo can do everything he can.

Zatanna immobilized Despero fine despite his strength. How strong was Despero?

Enough to tangle with 4 planet busters and Hourman and get the upper hand. Don't know what Asuras response to this is.

Also, how can he resist being drained dry by parasites powers? Or getting blitzed by wally's?

Now for characters like Zoom and Mirror... really. I can see Vegitto, defeating Mirror master via destructive capacity and mystical durability.

How? I need to know how. You realize Mirror Master isn't confined to this dimension, right? He has no reason to be physically present for this fight. How does Vegitto stop him?

How does Vegitto plan on tagging Zoom? Even AOE attacks move at a specific speed, which Thwane no doubt exceeds. Seriously, he's blitzed an inexperienced Wally West.

And I've shown you Zoom hurting Superman, so he can certainly harm Vegitto.

Now for Alan... i can see characters like Etrigan (Superman level, fight against cosmic forces, etc) defeating him.

Wait...these aren't the matchups I set up. You think you can change what I planned? Amazo has Batman's skills.

Here he shows this by using batarangs against Wally West, and even manages to tag him with a few.

Here he uses Batman's skills against Wally again. In the third panel he says "A thousand martial arts blows in less than a second", the implication being this was done with Batman's skills. This may not be the case, as the leaguers are usually trained fighters, especially considering Black Canary was on this team.

This is the final nail on the coffin. Vixen tries to absorb Amazo's powers, and mentions Batman's skills are among them. This is as solid proff as it gets.

The point I'm trying to make is that Amazo has batman's tacticalskills. This should allow him to determine the best possible matchups(the ones I stated) and give specific instructions on making sure my matchups come to pass. At no point is Etrigan going to fight Alan Scott alone.

But fine, let's entertain what would happen if Alan fought Etrigan.

It's actually happened in the past. Alan convincingly won, and he was no where near as determined as he was when h pulled off his high end feats.

Nuff said. Alan is well above superman level characters.

Kyle is a beast with is feats like holding Planets and preventing Supernovas. However Hal, have showed feats like defeating Krona and screwing the whole JL, that should give him the edge here.

"Holding planets"? That's a gross understatement of what Kyle pulled off. He rebuilt the quantam mechanics staircase, which was composed of numerous planets.

As to how many planets it was made of...

I count 132 planets. Nothing Hal has done amounts to that.

As for the Krona incident...that was a one-time thing. Hal was at his absolute best and at max determination. In an earlier fight with Krona he got dominated.

Kyle's high end feats simply outmatch Hal. He's:

1. Contained the big bang

2-4: Destroyed Oa and tanked the explosion

3-4 Tanked a solar system busting explosion.

4-5 Reacts to a ship moving at warp factor 7, which is 7 times the speed of light.

But does this really matter? Hal and Kyle aren't fighting, Hal's getting stomped by Zoom while Kyle is restraining Shazam and Etrigan.

Your move.

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Albertphytagoras

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#23  Edited By Albertphytagoras

@highaccuser

First of all my internet is not good so i cant upload scans rightnow.

Very nice scans and feats. Your team is what i call a dream team, however my team is not hopeless.

Asura have showed multi planet busting (so he can hang out with 4 planet busters, like Despero and Amazo).

Here you can watch his multi planet feats:

Loading Video...

Note: I prefer videos over scans in the case of Asura.

So in other words he can handle characters like Amazo with high dificulty, however Amazo is hax...

Now for Shazam:

He can match Flash in terms of speed and can stalemate Superman in strengh.

Ghost ridder:

Have the penance stare that can screw the mind of evil people... so Zoom is not very lucky. Plus he can travel through the dimensions.

Etrigan:

Can match Superman, once solo the Justice league and he have the will power to go against the Great evil beast.

Now for Vegitto...

He is the fusion of Goku and Vegeta (two planet busters) plus the magical potara amulets.

Vegitto is capable of going against dimension busters and he can survive transmutation.

He can be a huge problem to Alan scott.

Hal Jordan should handel Kyle despite the intense feats.

However i must remember you that Hal jordan is considered one of the top of the Green lanters and can move big planets witht he aid of Superman.

Strategy:

First of all lets analize the scenario: A city without people full with mirrors. Asura is way bigger than the city so the mirror hax is not a problem.

Vegitto can hover over the city thanks to his abilities.

Now Ghost ridder, Hal and Shazam have problems. However thanks to their planetary or inter-dimensional level stats they can handel the scenario quite easy (like your team).

Amazo (JL buster), Zoom (Flash on steriods), Alan (can handel inter-planetary and inter-dimensional enemies) and Kyle (Elite GL) are the biggest problems...

But Hal is a elite GL that can help my team in many ways (barriers, fields, etc) and Shazam can give a bad time to Zoom.

I can see Vegetto and Asura giving the fight of the century to Alan and Amazo.

however i can see Hal (high tier GL) going to toe toe against Kyle and Alan, meanwhile Shazam (Flash speed) and GR (penance stare) handles Zoom, while Asura (bigger than the earth and multi planet buster) fights Amazo... afther the big four are done i can see mirror master being stomped.

Opinions:

Alan and Amazo are a fat problem.

Zoom would get a nice match thanks to Vegitto (Planet buster) and Asura (FTL).

Mirror master taking down Vegitto?

No, Vegitto has the powers of Goku and Vegeta... so nope.

Kyle taking down Etrigan and Batson?

Only with high dificulty.

Note: I will edit this post.

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#24  Edited By Sy8000

@albertphytagoras:

First of all my internet is not good so i cant upload scans rightnow.

Very nice scans and feats. Your team is what i call a dream team, however my team is not hopeless.

I disagree

Asura have showed multi planet busting (so he can hang out with 4 planet busters, like Despero and Amazo).

Here you can watch his multi planet feats:

You need to give me minutes and seconds to visit. Where in the video did he planet bust? Besides, that video is for DLC and shouldn’t be canon.

Also, here he loses most of his arms pushing back a finger that wasn’t even moon sized by the look of it. He seems quite a bit weaker than Amazo by the looks of it.

Loading Video...

Note: I prefer videos over scans in the case of Asura.

So in other words he can handle characters like Amazo with high dificulty, however Amazo is hax...

This is your problem here. You think Amazo can be beaten in a mere contest of power. He can’t. Unless you can counter everything Amazo can do to you, it doesn’t matter one bit how powerful you are. All you’ve shown me of Asura makes him look like a brute. No brute can beat Amazo.

Now for Shazam:

He can match Flash in terms of speed and can stalemate Superman in strengh.

Correct on the second but wrong on the first. The only time Billy’s matched Flash in speed was after he’d just discovered the speed force and hadn’t reached his full potential yet.

He’s been speed blitzed by Superman, who as I’ve shown is hellishly slower than Flash.

Ghost ridder:

Have the penance stare that can screw the mind of evil people... so Zoom is not very lucky. Plus he can travel through the dimensions.

The penance stare will only work if he manages to hit Zoom with it.

And where’d you get the idea Ghost Rider is fighting Zoom? He’s fighting pure hearted Alan, who’s made of energy which I doubt Johnny can effect.

Etrigan:

Can match Superman, once solo the Justice league and he have the will power to go against the Great evil beast.

Solo the Justice league my ass. He’s never matched GEB.

Now for Vegitto...

He is the fusion of Goku and Vegeta (two planet busters) plus the magical potara amulets.

Doesn’t say much about the upper limits of his powers.

Vegitto is capable of going against dimension busters and he can survive transmutation.

Prove it. Also, transmution isn’t all Even can do. How durable is Vegitto’s reflection?

He can be a huge problem to Alan scott.

He would, except they aren’t fighting! I gave you very clear match ups, and gave reasons I think they’d play out like that, and you haven’t paid the slightest but of attention to it. If you think you can change the match ups, say so but explain why!!

Hal Jordan should handel Kyle despite the intense feats.

Again, why? Let’s look at more “intense feats”.

Contains a star, something Hal needed the guardians help to do.

He defeated Amazo 2000, who copied the powers of the entire rest of the league.

However i must remember you that Hal jordan is considered one of the top of the Green lanters and can move big planets witht he aid of Superman.

Kyle is also a top GL.

And him moving planets is PIS. In the past superman has needed more help than Kyle can give to move Planets or moons. I can prove this with scans if you want.

Strategy:

First of all lets analize the scenario: A city without people full with mirrors. Asura is way bigger than the city so the mirror hax is not a problem.

Cute, but Mirrors aren’t all reflections. How about eyes?

Now Ghost ridder, Hal and Shazam have problems. However thanks to their planetary or inter-dimensional level stats they can handel the scenario quite easy (like your team).

Examples. Instances. Scans? Anything?

But Hal is a elite GL that can help my team in many ways (barriers, fields, etc) and Shazam can give a bad time to Zoom.

1. Kyle can do the same for my team.

2. Shazam can’t do a thing to Zoom as stated above.

3. How many times do I need to tell you this? Zoom and Shazam aren’t fighting!

I can see Vegetto and Asura giving the fight of the century to Alan and Amazo.

Alan and Vegitto aren’t fighting!

however i can see Hal (high tier GL) going to toe toe against Kyle and Alan,

Going against Alan? Hal doesn’t stand a chance. Alan’s traded blows with Gog, who outmuscled a much stronger version of Superman.

He’s beaten Obsidian(who’s easily beaten Kyle in the past and covered the planet in his power.).

meanwhile Shazam (Flash speed) and GR (penance stare) handles Zoom, while Asura (bigger than the earth and multi planet buster) fights Amazo... afther the big four are done i can see mirror master being stomped.

Shazam can’t do a thing to Zoom for reasons stated above.

Mirror Master isn’t getting touched, much less stomped.

Zoom would get a nice match thanks to Vegitto (Planet buster) and Asura (FTL).

They aren’t fighting him!!!!!!

Mirror master taking down Vegitto?

No, Vegitto has the powers of Goku and Vegeta... so nope.

This isn’t a contest of power. Power is by far the least important thing here. You haven’t shown how Vegitto can touch him.

Kyle taking down Etrigan and Batson?

Only with high dificulty.

I never said beat…I said contain.

Ready for votes or what? Because there’s little left to be said considering your inconsistencies.

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Sy8000

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#25  Edited By Sy8000
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Albertphytagoras

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@highaccuser:

No. Votes can wait. The problem is that you put characters against characters..

I mean put Asura the destructor against Mirror master and he stomps. However you put him against Amazo.

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@albertphytagoras: because that's what people DO.

You can't control every aspect of a free for all fight. You just started sprouting random matchups that give no indication as to how the fight would go. That's why in every single group based debate they break I down into matchups. It's the only way to give the voters a feel of how the battle would play out.

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Albertphytagoras

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@highaccuser:

Fine, agreed... however some match ups were unfair in my opinion.

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