Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the latest episode of Challenge a Viner!
In one corner, we have the gun slinging, smack talking, TK blasting masked menace Cole Cash, aka Grifter!
In the other, Betsy Braddock swapped bodies with a hot asian chick to become the powerful psychic and telekinetic ninja known as Psylocke!
Wildstorm/Flashpoint/New 52 Grifter - represented by TNBB
VS
Psylocke - represented by @nimamindtricks
Rules
This is a CaV. If you don't know what that is, read this
Both Grifter and Psylocke are morals off and taking it seriously.
Neither Grifter nor Psylocke has TP
Grifter cannot use blood vessel pinching TK
Psylocke cannot give him a stroke
Grifter has standard equipment including four fully loaded pistols
Psylocke has her katana
If you'd like to be tagged for votes, just say so! But, those with under 500 posts will not be accepted. This is to prevent trolls, and people who do not take it seriously.
@thenewbluebeetle007: You can tag me, but I'm absolutely AWFUL at voting for things as I always want to provide helpful feedback but never have the time. You can tag me but I might not vote haha.
As for the other tournament, I saw some of the competitors in it and I really wouldn't have a chance, even with Despero ahah
@thenewbluebeetle007: You can tag me, but I'm absolutely AWFUL at voting for things as I always want to provide helpful feedback but never have the time. You can tag me but I might not vote haha.
As for the other tournament, I saw some of the competitors in it and I really wouldn't have a chance, even with Despero ahah
Hm... I'd say it would be a good way to bolster your resume for the HOF rounds.... but.... lol
and it's for fun, no? not about chance
I'll tag you anyways. Can't hurt to get a vote from a HOFer
Psylock's history can be a little convoluted and weird, so I will make this as brief as possible.
Originally just a telepathy user on the X-Men, Elizabeth Braddock aka Psylocke became one of the most skilled and deadly martial artists/ninja assassins on Marvel Earth after taking a trip through the Siege Perilous:
Classic Psylocke and Colossus entering the Siege Periluous
Later she was transferred into the body of Kwannon. She eventually has a power source called the Crimson Dawn infused into her soul and she gains a red marking over her face. This enhanced her physical abilities as well gave her additional powers including Telekinesis.
After her untimely death due to broadsword through the chest she was brought back to life by her brother Jamie who manipulated her quantum strings:
Gallery
Powers + Abilities
What makes Psylocke so dangerous and deadly, is the fact she is both an incredible dangerous martial artist (trained by the Hand) and has various creative mutant powers at her disposal, which she regularly uses separately and in amalgamation with her martial arts.
Expert Martial Artist - Said to rival a ninja grandmaster. Besides the Hand, she has also been trained by AoA Sabretooth and an alternate reality version of Ogun (Wolverine's mentor).
Skilled in Ninja Weaponry - In this fight, she will have her standard katana sword, Shurayuki.
Infiltration and Espionage Expert
Omega Level Telepath (mostly irrelevant to this battle because mind-rape is banned)
Telekinesis - Psylocke uses her TK in a variety of different ways including:
Move objects and people
Force Fields
Telekinetic Katana
Telekinetic Crossbow
Various TK weapons
Enhance her physical stats to superhuman levels
*Please note: Psylocke's telekinesis is weaker when she has to also be using her telepathy at the same time and vice-a-versa. As the OP mentions, Psylocke will not be using telepathy/mind-rape in this battle, which means her TK will be at optimum levels.
Psionic Shadow - Alows her to teleport and meld with shadows for the purposes of stealth and sneak attacks
Psionic Knife - A blade manifestation of her psychic energy. It disrupts her opponents neurons once stabbed and can potentially kill them.
Kinetically Charge Weapons
She has other powers such as psionic bolts (attacks the mind, not the body) and illusion casting but I consider those forms of mind-rape or strictly telepathic in nature, so they are irrelevant.
Conclusion - What To Look Forward To
This post was just meant to be a brief introduction of Psylocke's history and what she brings to the table. I will show off her skills, feats, and abilities in greater detail using scans and descriptions as to how it is relevant to this battle with Grifter.
Psylocke has a history of taking out highly skilled foes and foes with superior stats to her own by strategically, skillfully, and at times ruthlessly using her martial arts and mutant powers at the same time. I hope to show that when matching Psylocke up with Grifter, her superior fighting ability and more creative use of her telekinesis as well as her other interesting psionic powers, will bring her to victory.
Cole Cash is a former U.S. Army Special Ops soldier who deserted and became a con artist. After the Daemonites attempted to possess his body, he ended up as one of the most wanted men alive. Hiding his face under a mask, he wages war on the Daemonites as Grifter.
In the Wildstorm Universe, Cole had an abusive father and his mother died too early. Though he started as a criminal, he later became a superhero who would go on to become one of the most prominent members of Team 7. Exposure to the Gen Factor gave him superpowers such as telepathy and telekinesis, and he's taken on his fair share of mid tier powerhouses.
In Flashpoint, Grifter was the leader of the Resistance, who fought Wonder Woman's Furies in the Amazon-Atlantean War. Though he died (then again, who didn't?) his efforts were not in vain, and contributed in Flash's fixing of the timeline.
In the New 52, my personal favorite, Grifter was rebooted as a badass antihero who used his TK and cleverness to fight the Daemonites, alien invaders somewhat similar to the Skrulls. He's fought some powerful people, like Green Arrow, Stormwatch, the Suicide Squad, and Helspont, and emerged victorious more times than not.
Powers and Abilities
What nima said in his intro to Psylocke, also applies to Grifter. He's received extensive training as a US Special Ops Agent and as a Coda warrior, and exposure to the the Gen Factor (Wildstorm) and Daemonite experimentation (New 52) gave him powers that he often utilizes in combat.
Expert Martial Artist
Grifter was trained by the Special Ops and the Coda
Enchanced Physicals
Healing Factor
Reaction Time
Expert Marksman
We're talking Deadshot level
Telekinesis
Easily better than Psylocke's. I'll get into his feats in great detail later.
Telepathy
Not as strong as Psylocke's but that's unimportant here
Life sense
Sort of like a Spider Sense; if his life's in danger he'll sense it and react accordingly
Had some formatting issues but that looks good
Why I believe Grifter Wins
Ability to contend with Psylocke in every physical category
Reading his opponents
More powerful Telekinesis
Life Sense
These are just my opinions, based on my knowledge of Psylocke from Uncanny X-Force and of Grifter, that I will try to prove throughout this debate.
Mutant powers aside - let's take a look at how Grifter is dealing with a serious fighter on his hands who will not hold back. When and if the gap is closed between them - it will not be pretty for Grfifter.
Skill
No surprise here. Psylocke is an incredible hand-to-hand combatant. Even if she was stripped of her telepathic and telekinetic abilities, she would still be a force to be recommended in the martial arts department - easily in Marvel earth's top 10. The fact that Psylocke is almost always carrying a katana on hand makes her an even more deadly threat with all that skill in her repertoire.
As mentioned earlier, here is an example of Psylocke training with the Hand ninjas. This rigorous and ruthless training was to the death. Besides not having a battlefield advantage, you'll note Psylocke was also fighting a numbers game:
She was given a lifetime worth of martial arts training - yes a lifetime - in a matter of a few hours, which she was able to master:
Here we have Psylocke taking down Wolverinewith nothing but her hand-to-hand skills. Wolverine was not holding back in this encounter, he even got a little slash on Psylocke, which she did not allow to slow her down or lose focus from the task at hand: take down Wolverine!
The 3 links below the scans show the remainder of the fight. If you note, Psylocke went into Wolverine's brain and confirmed that Wolverine is in animal mode - where his morals are completely off and he is not holding back. Psylocke took a couple hits and slashes in this fight but it did not slow her down, and she ends up taking down Wolverine. This shows not only Psylocke's skill despite such a insane situation, but it also shows her incredible pain tolerance and willpower.
All of this is just the tip of the iceberg for Psylocke's fighting skill. I will get to more as the CAV moves on since it is such a pivotal advantage Psylocke has in this battle against Grifter.
Let's move on to other physicals...
Speed/Reflexes/Agility
As a mutant ninja assassin, it's not surprising that Psylocke is very quick and agile. Her speed, reflexes, and agility give lethal results to both canon fodder and legit opponents. I've already shown her keeping up with an unbound, animalistic Wolverine - which requires a decent amount of speed and agility - let's see what else she can deliver to Grifter.
From left to right (1 - 5)
Gallery
An untrained and unskilled Psylocke (pre ninja days) reacts to Wolverine testing her with a surprise attack at point blank range.
Psylocke moving faster than the eyes can see and faster than pain receptors can be sensed by dismembering a guy before he can pulling a trigger and know he just got cut to pieces.
Deflecting bullets at close range and cutting off the shooter's hands.
Blitzing a mind-controlled Magneto head on dodging all the metal being thrown at her and stabbing him in the neck with a dart.
Despite being emotionally distraught and distracted, she instinctively reacts and counters a surprise attack from AoA Sabretooth.
As we can see, Psylocke uses her agility, speed, and reflexes for very damaging or deadly results. These feats are also pretty impressive when you consider the fact Psylocke is not amping her physical stats with her telekinesis, which we will get to later on in this CAV.
Strength
Brute strength is obviously not something Psylocke is known for. Obviously using her martial arts skills to take down physically stronger and durable opponents take a certain amount of pure strength, but nevertheless she does have decent physical strength for a woman of her size.
One good example of her showing of her lifting and striking power strength is her swinging a TK ball-chain that weighs 90lbs while holding Jubilee's baby to momentarily incapacitate a future monster version of Ice Man.
Conclusion
Round 1 for me was just to present the physical advantages Psylocke brings to the table in this battle with Grifter, which I feel are more refined and superior overall. I believe Psylocke has years of combat feats and battles with some of the most vicious and skilled opponents Marvel has to offer which further solidifies her legitimacy as a fighter. Grifter is hard pressed to handle Psylocke in close quarter combat not just because her skill surpasses his, but especially since Psylocke does not play around or hold back in a fight.
I will get to Psylocke's other abilities in later rounds. I do not want to make the first round filled with a ton of stuff right off the bat.
As @nimamindtricks: has commenced the debate with showing Betsy's raw physicals, I will do the same for Grifter.
Though Grifter's superior telekinesis and battle strategy will give him the win here as I will demonstrate in my later posts, his skill and marksmanship will allow him to contend with Betsy if he is forced to.
Marksmanship/Speed/Reaction Time
Grifter is the best shot in the Wildstorm Universe. This is no exaggeration.
Exhibit A: An unarmed Grifter dodges the gunfire of multiple trained soldiers, takes their guns, and kills them all while jumping, and not looking.
Gallery
This is in close quarters, and Grifter wasn't even hit a single time. He not only evades the bullets, but takes the soldiers' guns and shoots them.
Exhibit B: Grifter shoots 5 men so fast that they can't even pull the trigger (they were about to execute him), just like you claim Psylocke did, though this will be debunked later.
Gallery
His best feats will be delved into later in this debate.
Strength
Cole has some frankly ridiculous strength feats, which came about as a result of Daemonite experimentation in the New 52.
Gallery
Grifter kills two peak humans in as many blows
Cole drags Hawkgirl to the ground using his rope, then stabs her
Grifter has enough strength and balance to hang by a pickaxe to a glacier, with one arm
He was trained by Zealot, who has thousands of years of battle to her credit. He's also stalemated Midnighter, and fought him evenly in the New 52 (scans that I may show as the debate goes on).
Life Sense
Sneaking up on Grifter is not a valid option for Psylocke because of his life sense.
One can think of the Life Sense as a variation of Peter Parker's Spider-Sense, as it warns him of threats to his life.
Here we see the life sense at work: a Daemonite tries to sneak up on Grifter, who senses it and in turn kills it.
Gallery
This will be of utmost importance in this debate, as Grifter will be able to dodge Psylocke's every move.
Debunking Feats
An untrained and unskilled Psylocke (pre ninja days) reacts to Wolverine testing her with a surprise attack at point blank range.
Psylocke moving faster than the eyes can see and faster than pain receptors can be sensed by dismembering a guy before he can pulling a trigger and know he just got cut to pieces.
Deflecting bullets at close range and cutting off the shooter's hands.
Blitzing a mind-controlled Magneto head on dodging all the metal being thrown at her and stabbing him in the neck with a dart.
Despite being emotionally distraught and distracted, she instinctively reacts and counters a surprise attack from AoA Sabretooth.
1. This feat is inapplicable, as Wolverine was not trying to kill her, or even hit her. We have no way of knowing if she could have reacted to it if it was indeed Logan's intention to kill.
2. This feat is also questionable. A few pages before this feat from Uncanny X-Force 5.1, Murray Reese, the Reaver she killed, was hit by Archangel's paralyzing neuro-toxins.
Observe the direct hits that Warren landed on Reese before Reese went into the portal. it's highly likely that these toxins had an effect on Reese's processing speed or reaction time, thus negating the feat entirely.
And even if Reese wasn't the one that Warren hit, that was a bloodlusted Psylocke who wanted the Reavers dead.
3. This feat is legitimate, however, Grifter has done the same many times.
4. At best, this one is PIS.
Magneto was mind controlled; we have no way of knowing whether this affected his skill level or ability to formulate a proper plan of attack
Magneto is a planetary level mutant. Looks to his showing against Apocalypse, against Galactus, and against various rosters of the X-Men for proof. If he wanted Betsy dead, she would be dead.
5. AoA Sabretooth and Psylocke have a healthy working relationship with each other. He wasn't trying to kill her or do her harm. This is a blatant misuse of the term "surprise attack" on your part.
Coming attractions
Next I would like to discuss the telekinetic powers of our characters, if you don't mind.
After that we'll get into feats. Who's the superior combatant? Who has defeated the more accomplished opponents?
An untrained and unskilled Psylocke (pre ninja days) reacts to Wolverine testing her with a surprise attack at point blank range.
Psylocke moving faster than the eyes can see and faster than pain receptors can be sensed by dismembering a guy before he can pulling a trigger and know he just got cut to pieces.
Deflecting bullets at close range and cutting off the shooter's hands.
Blitzing a mind-controlled Magneto head on dodging all the metal being thrown at her and stabbing him in the neck with a dart.
Despite being emotionally distraught and distracted, she instinctively reacts and counters a surprise attack from AoA Sabretooth.
1. This feat is inapplicable, as Wolverine was not trying to kill her, or even hit her. We have no way of knowing if she could have reacted to it if it was indeed Logan's intention to kill.
This feat is very applicable. I already stated Wolverine was testing her. He obviously had no interest in hurting her, he was just testing to see if she can react to a surprise attack. I never said he was trying to kill or hurt her. That's ridiculous. Besides, I already showed Psylocke stomping Wolverine with her skill once she became a ninja.
2. This feat is also questionable. A few pages before this feat from Uncanny X-Force 5.1, Murray Reese, the Reaver she killed, was hit by Archangel's paralyzing neuro-toxins.
Observe the direct hits that Warren landed on Reese before Reese went into the portal. it's highly likely that these toxins had an effect on Reese's processing speed or reaction time, thus negating the feat entirely.
This point deals with a ton of assumptions or hypotheticals on your part. In the panels right before this one (see below), Psylocke (as I already showed), strikes with her sword at the speed of a blur. To assume she suddenly can't do the same later is ridiculous. There is simply no solid evidence or implied evidence to prove that Maury was still facing the residual effects of Warren's pinions - there is no evidence that the pinions actual punctured Maury's body. Maury has no healing factor, so there is no way he could take a couple pinions to the chest and a couple in the stomach.
In conclusion, there is zero evidence that Maury was actually hit by the pinions because if he was he would be dead. They just went into his armor and the blood shown in the panel is Warren regrowing his wing out of his back which was just chopped off.
As a side note...this isn't even close to Psylocke's best speed/reflex feats so get ready.
3. This feat is legitimate, however, Grifter has done the same many times.
Are feats being legitimized based off of if Grifter could do the same or not? Very arbitrary.
4. At best, this one is PIS.
Magneto was mind controlled; we have no way of knowing whether this affected his skill level or ability to formulate a proper plan of attack
Magneto is a planetary level mutant. Looks to his showing against Apocalypse, against Galactus, and against various rosters of the X-Men for proof. If he wanted Betsy dead, she would be dead.
This feat comes from Uncanny X-Men #17 from 2013. Magneto has notbeen planetary level in well over a decade - obviously his classic power levels would wreck Psylocke, Grifter, and then some. Saying that because someone is mind controlled means their skill or power levels go out the window is again highly presumptuous - mind control removes victims ablility to make his or her own decisions/actions. There was nothing else in this story to suggest Magneto's skills were not there. This feat was strictly to show how quick Psylocke can move and dodge on coming attacks.
5. AoA Sabretooth and Psylocke have a healthy working relationship with each other. He wasn't trying to kill her or do her harm. This is a blatant misuse of the term "surprise attack" on your part.
Incorrect. Exiles #92 - The Exiles had been brain washed by The Hand - so Sabretooth was trying to subdue and capture Psylocke, and if that meant hurting her? So be it. How do I know this? Here is what happened to Psylocke in the very next panel where she gets body slammed by Morph, who was transformed into an offshoot of the 700lb Big Bertha:
So there was no "healthy relationship" between AoA Sabretooth going on when this feat happened. Also - pretty good durability on Psylocke's part for surviving this attack (you'll see later).
I will go into this encounter in even more detail and discuss what happened before and right after this a little later!
Now that I debunked your debunking, let's move on...
Telekinesis - Offensive
Psylocke could arguably be the most versatile and dangerous telekinetics in Marvel. She claims her TK power levels are strong enough to crush mountains (which she says she has done in the past) and can flatten city blocks:
Gallery
Some may take this as hyperbole, but as an honorable ninja with a good track record, I highly doubt she is lying.
Marvel Girl/Jean Grey even admits that Psylocke's telekinesis is above her own, as Psylocke is tossing back a group of X-Men:
Busting up teams with her TK is not something foreign to Psylocke. Even early on in her telekinesis use, she was able to take down teams of powerhouse X-Men. I quote, "Telekinesis she's barely begun to master. Perceiving a threat, her reaction is pure instinct."
It should be noted that this is from Uncanny X-Men #38, where Psylocke had lost here telepathy powers. This shows that she has experience strictly using her TK powers and keep in mind that Psylocke's TK is amped when she is not using her TP abilities (and vice a versa).
Telekinesis - Enhancing Physicals
Psylocke's physicals are proven to be very impressive. Her fighting skills at base levels are far above Grifter's. However, her physicals can be amped with her telekinesis. Once again, in the first scan to the left, it is confirmed that Psylocke's TK is further refined and elevated when her TP is gone or not being used -- which falls under the stipulations of this non TP CAV of ours.
Gallery
On the left we have Psylocke facing a realistic Sabretooth simulation. She stomps him effortless, as she talks about how she can hone in her TK to deliver more devastating physical attacks. Psylocke has defeated Sabretooth in the past without using her TK to boost her physicals, so to say this is out of the realm of possibility just because it is a simulation doesn't hold up. Fact is, she would have been injured or hurt if this Sabretooth did lay hands on her.
Again uses her TK to boost her speed and strength against a Hauk'ka warrior, delivering a serious right hook, that sent her enemy flying.
Telekinesis - Flight
I think we all can agree that what makes Pslocke so unique is how she uses her telekinesis in a variety of ways during combat. She naturally adjusts what she needs to do to win a fight and at times instantly learns new techniques/skills on the spot to win her the match up.
Earlier you had claimed that AoA Sabretooth's attack on Psylocke was nonsense because they have a past history with each other. I corrected you and explained how the Exiles were brainwashed and on a mission to take out Psylocke.
Now, here is AoA Sabretooth and Psylocke going at it in the issue prior. As you can see, Sabretooth was in "animal" mode, which Psylocke mentions - oh and Psylocke learns a new telekinesis ability: flight.
From left to right (1 - 4) {did some cropping so I can use all 4 scans}:
Gallery
Psylocke clearly trying to kill Sabretooth - showing no mercy by stabbing and cutting through him.
Effortlessly dodging his attacks and handily taking him down using her skills
Sabretooth grabs hold of her, and she begins to fly.
This is where it gets interesting - Psylocke sends him soaring, throwing him with her TK while she remains flying. This sends him crashing through the walls of a command center that was monitoring their fight, causing a loud rumble and shock-wave across the command center, strong enough to destroy computers and startle Morph awake and knock over shelves in the basement below.
Telekinesis - Katana (TK Katana/Sword)
Probably the most famous "tool" and manner in which Psylocke is known for using her telekinetic power is her TK katana. As a highly skilled and deadly ninja, using a normal katana is something that comes naturally to her, so it is no surprise that her TK katana is something not to be trifled with.
Her are a few examples of just how destructive her TK katana can be:
From left to right (1 - 3):
Gallery
A basic combat example: Psyocke explains that her TK katana can slice through any material (assuming it's below vibranium and adamantium in durability) as she slices up their armor and sword - and it also stuns any opponent who gets cut as well. She also mentions that her TK katana can be summoned instantly. Her TK katana does not actually "cut" her opponents like her regular katana would - this will be explained later.
Psylocke slams her TK katana on the roof of a multi-story, sending it crumbling to the ground in one-shot.
Slices open and destroys a giant steel vault door.
Saw a power and unexpected weapon in the hands of a highly trained ninja like Psylocke in a battle like this where it is a random encounter and neither opponent knows what the other is capable of makes this a really tough fight for Grifter.
Telekinesis - Invisibility
Psylocke can use her telekinesis to modify her molecular structure and herself invisible. This is a very dangerous ability to have when you're already a highly skied and agile telekinetic ninja assassin:
Telekinesis - Shields/Force Fields
Aside from her agility, durability, and reflexes, another reason why Grifter will likely do little to no damage to Psylocke is because of her really strong TK shields.
Shield reaction speed
Summoned instantly, she can easily protect herself from all of Grifter's attacks. Here Psylocke reacts to a laser being fired and delects it by placing a shield around the target after the laser had been shot while she was still tied up:
In combat
Psylocke can summon her TK shield in combat as well and alternate between her TK shield and TK katana's instantly. Her she does both and reiterates that her TK katana's damage output does not physically cut the opponent but still causes excruciating pain:
TK shields/force fields durability
Grifter is simply not going to be busting through Psylocke's shields They have consistently shown to be very durable and are even more so in instances when she shuts down her TP use, as mentioned before in other examples.
Here are a couple basic examples of what kind of shielding Grifter is dealing with here:
From left to right (1 - 3):
Gallery
She summons her shields instantly, which tank an explosion strong enough to destroy a multi-story building.
& 3. Here Marvel Girl asks Psylocke to join her by combining their TK powers to shield the city from a laser beam that is about to destroy the city. As mentioned earlier, Marvel Girl could not handle the TK might of Psylocke, as she stated her own TK was no where near Psylocke's. With that in mind, it is safe to say that more than 50% of the shield's durability is coming from Psylocke's powers. Pretty impressive.
Counters Life Sense
Sneaking up on Grifter is not a valid option for Psylocke because of his life sense.
One can think of the Life Sense as a variation of Peter Parker's Spider-Sense, as it warns him of threats to his life.
Here we see the life sense at work: a Daemonite tries to sneak up on Grifter, who senses it and in turn kills it.
Gallery
This will be of utmost importance in this debate, as Grifter will be able to dodge Psylocke's every move.
Utmost importance in this debate? That is unfortunate since Psylocke can completely nullify or counter this ability by turning it against Grifter:
Psylocke can turn someone's powers against themselves, distorting their senses. Her she does it to Rogue, causing her to fly out of control and crash into a cliff.
Now 2 questions about the life sense argument:
Does Grifter truly have a definitive "life sense" power? I have done some research and cannot find anything that confirms it since the scans you provided do not mention them verbatim. I have scans of Psylocke and many other street level characters who have reacted to someone attacking them from behind - both fodder and skilled combatants alike. I do not see how that is proof - and comparing it to spidey senses is funny since Spider-Man has been tagged by highly skilled and speedy opponents many times.
I do not see how being attacked by some unskilled fodder can be compared to being attacked by one of the most skilled and brutal assassins in the Marvel universe who can turn invisible, protect herself from mental and technology sensory, melt into shadows (we'll get to that later on), and can amp her own already impressive physical stats. Your argument that Grifter will be untouched by Psylocke is yet to be justified.
Conclusion
I believe I have presented a decent case for Psylocke's victory here in the telekinetic realm. In essence, Psylocke is a threat here because she combines her TK with her physical stats and fighting skills so effortlessly in a variety of creative ways, it creates a ton of deadly problems for Grifter. A common theme presented here is the number of instances where Psylocke instinctively reacts to the situation at hands and naturally uses an ability to solve the problem she faces. Psylocke's creativity, skill, and raw power will bring home a victory in this fight and I have not even scratched the surface.
One thing though, Grifter doesn't really stand a chance against Psylocke without his powers... in addition, we agreed on no TP, not just no mind-rape. So can we not have that power nullification, please? If not can we limit it to only cutting off a single power at a time or something of the sort, please?
This feat is very applicable. I already stated Wolverine was testing her. He obviously had no interest in hurting her, he was just testing to see if she can react to a surprise attack. I never said he was trying to kill or hurt her. That's ridiculous. Besides, I already showed Psylocke stomping Wolverine with her skill once she became a ninja.
Tbh seeing as how you did show better feats, I don't feel the need to respond to any of these.
This point deals with a ton of assumptions or hypotheticals on your part. In the panels right before this one (see below), Psylocke (as I already showed), strikes with her sword at the speed of a blur. To assume she suddenly can't do the same later is ridiculous. There is simply no solid evidence or implied evidence to prove that Maury was still facing the residual effects of Warren's pinions - there is no evidence that the pinions actual punctured Maury's body. Maury has no healing factor, so there is no way he could take a couple pinions to the chest and a couple in the stomach.
In conclusion, there is zero evidence that Maury was actually hit by the pinions because if he was he would be dead. They just went into his armor and the blood shown in the panel is Warren regrowing his wing out of his back which was just chopped off.
As a side note...this isn't even close to Psylocke's best speed/reflex feats so get ready.
I just don't want you saying that speed is insurmountably skewed. And once again if it's not her best speed feat... then there's no need to discuss.
Are feats being legitimized based off of if Grifter could do the same or not? Very arbitrary.
No, they're being legitimized based off of their legitimacy. For example, Grifter can move at the speed of the blur as well - he's shown to be able to process the speed of and manipulate bullets - yet I did question Psylocke moving at those speeds.
This feat comes from Uncanny X-Men #17 from 2013. Magneto has notbeen planetary level in well over a decade - obviously his classic power levels would wreck Psylocke, Grifter, and then some. Saying that because someone is mind controlled means their skill or power levels go out the window is again highly presumptuous - mind control removes victims ablility to make his or her own decisions/actions. There was nothing else in this story to suggest Magneto's skills were not there. This feat was strictly to show how quick Psylocke can move and dodge on coming attacks.
In over a decade? That's odd, I seem to recall him drawing on the power of multiple planets in Avengers vs. X-Men.
Exactly, mind control removes their ability to make their own decisions or actions. Meaning that their own skill, or the way they normally utilize their powers, would be different.
Incorrect. Exiles #92 - The Exiles had been brain washed by The Hand - so Sabretooth was trying to subdue and capture Psylocke, and if that meant hurting her? So be it. How do I know this? Here is what happened to Psylocke in the very next panel where she gets body slammed by Morph, who was transformed into an offshoot of the 700lb Big Bertha:
Observe Sabretooth's dialogue in the scan: "We mean no harm, we just want to talk!" And then, after Psylocke attacks him, the Exiles respond. So, it's not a viable reaction feat.
This is a frivolous matter now, not worth arguing. Let's move on, shall we?
Countering
In this section I will choose the portions of your telekinesis that I feel the need to counter at the moment.
Countering Flight
I'd like to ask, how frequently does Psylocke use flight in combat? In that specific instance, it appeared she only did it to shake Sabretooth off, adapting to his hold. I can assure you that no one is going to put each other in such a hold in this battle - it's not Grifter's style and I doubt it's Psylocke's either.
So if you don't have instances of her using flight against a random opponent, it is inapplicable here.
Countering Invisibility
See above; you need to show her using it in combat.
But even if she does use it in combat, Grifter has heat/night vision goggles, meaning seeing her will be no problem.
In addition the Life Sense allows Grifter to sense Betsy.
Speaking of which...
Does Grifter truly have a definitive "life sense" power? I have done some research and cannot find anything that confirms it since the scans you provided do not mention them verbatim. I have scans of Psylocke and many other street level characters who have reacted to someone attacking them from behind - both fodder and skilled combatants alike. I do not see how that is proof - and comparing it to spidey senses is funny since Spider-Man has been tagged by highly skilled and speedy opponents many times.
I do not see how being attacked by some unskilled fodder can be compared to being attacked by one of the most skilled and brutal assassins in the Marvel universe who can turn invisible, protect herself from mental and technology sensory, melt into shadows (we'll get to that later on), and can amp her own already impressive physical stats. Your argument that Grifter will be untouched by Psylocke is yet to be justified.
Pre Flashpoint he definitely does; you can look on Grifter's battles here on CV and people including Buckshot (one of the most credible debaters the Vine has ever had) have said it.
As for a better feat, I showed him dodging many rounds of gunfire from multiple people in an enclosed area. Unless you think a normal peak human can do that, he has a life sense.
Hm, okay, I'll bring up some more combat feats in this post.
Countering Perception-Scrambling
Psylocke can turn someone's powers against themselves, distorting their senses. Her she does it to Rogue, causing her to fly out of control and crash into a cliff.
I believe you're slightly but surely misinterpreting the scan. What she did was telepathically (which isn't allowed here) confuse Rogue's perception of reality, thus causing Rogue to not know where things are which resulted in her flying into a mountain. She "used Rogue's own power against her" in that she used Rogue's strength to harm her. It's like when World War Hulk used Juggernaut's power against him by evading him, making Juggs unable to stop moving in that direction, incapacitating him.
Telekinesis
Grifter's TK isn't as versatile as Psylocke's, however he can use it for a variety of effects and it's FAR more powerful.
TK Punch
One of his most useful abilities is the "TK Punch". This enables him to strike Psylocke from a distance, without her being able to dodge it. He's never used it in succession, but it will definitely faze her if not outright defeat her.
Here he oneshots Midnighter. The same Midnighter who has the following durability feats (attributed to @comicstooge)
He took a palm slam from Maul, a guy who's in the same league as Apollo and was fine (I'll show you more of their fight later).
Withstood a punch in the face from Apollo. While it likely wasn't at full force, he was pissed at the time, so the strike obviously had a hell of a lot of power behind it. This is also impressive because when Grifter TK punched him, Midnighter had to sit down for a while, compared to here, where he was perfectly fine.
One of his most impressive feats of durability, withstanding a kick from a rouge Doctor (a vastly powerful reality warper) who'd amped his strength to the point where he was stomping the continent+ busting Apollo. In addition, he's able to summon a door and get up right after, when he had to sit down against Grifter.
Remember the Mr Majestic level guy that Midnighter struck? Well, he also withstood a kick from the guy, before giving one back:
By the durability feats you've shown, I believe Grifter can oneshot Psylocke the same way, considering Midnighter is likely her physical superior.
Okay, I kept accidentally hitting the back button after editing (f*** Macs) so I'm posting the rest here because if I do then it posts a warning message before leaving the page.
TK Moving Things
Grifter often combines his TK with his gear or the environment around him for devastating effects (the environment and how Grifter will use it will be a big part of the next post, assuming you lay out Psylocke's battle plan in your next). This feat isn't particularly notable, but what would Psylocke do if Grifter decided to shoot her with 6 guns at once like he does here?
Now, here's one of his better lifting feats.
Observe: Grifter sends some Daemonites and their truck flying a hundred or so feet in the year with absolutely no sign of physical strain. We don't know how much a Daeomnite weighed but we can assume from their appearance and the fact that they physically overpower humans that they're maybe 300 pounds.
In the third to last panel I count 17 of them, plus a truck (which are generally about 4500 pounds). This means that Grifter was lifting approximately 10,000 pounds of force, casually. And this isn't even close to being his best telekinesis feat.
TK Blasting
This is something else that I think will be important in this debate. Grifter does not want to make this hand-to-hand, not because he couldn't win but because he's far better long range. So to drive Psylocke back, he will unleash a powerful telekinetic blast.
In the second panel, Grifter uses his telekinesis to unleash a blast of energy that knocks the Suicide Squad back. This attack is immensely powerful, more powerful than Psylocke can hope to protect herself against, and I will show the feats to back it up in my next post when we get into strategy.
I believe that's all for TK.
More Combat Feats
Now, here's the thing about armed combat. Grifter can afford to be hit once, twice, three times or more before becoming so injured that he has no hope of winning. But Grifter has a GUN. If he tags Psylocke once with it, she essentially loses. And he's a quite a good shot at aiming with a gun.
Grifter Volume 3, Issue 9
Here Grifter, while doing a backflip off of a mountain, on a snowboard, with his eyes closed and his pursuers 20-50 feet away from him, scores two headshots.
I believe this is enough to say he could shoot Psylocke.
Now, you asked for more combat feats and I am happy to oblige.
I don't want to post the full fights right now but in Grifter Volume 3, Issue 7 he was faring well against Midnighter in H2H, and in Issue 4 he was stalemating Green Arrow - both accomplished fighters in their own rights.
"Creativity"
I don't believe that creativity with one's powers will result in significant ramifications, at least not the extent that you do. While creativity is important to a battle, pure strength and power can counteract this. For example, many teambusters over the years have been bricks who simply power through (for example Doomsday, Hulk, and Solomon Grundy among others).
However, Grifter has Psylocke beat in this regard as well!
Check out this scan from Grifter 2:
Gallery
Cole Cash, blowing you up with kitchen supplies
Here, Grifter uses kitchen supplies to blow up a Daemonite. Cole had absolutely no idea that the Daemonite was there before seeing it, and he adopted a plan on the fly that was effective in that it eventually resulted in the Daemonite's defeat.
And then in Grifter 15 he, once again in the moment, came up with a systematic way of defeating the Suicide Squad (a fight that I'll talk more about as the debate progresses).
Summary
I believe I have presented a decent case for Psylocke's victory here in the telekinetic realm. In essence, Psylocke is a threat here because she combines her TK with her physical stats and fighting skills so effortlessly in a variety of creative ways, it creates a ton of deadly problems for Grifter. A common theme presented here is the number of instances where Psylocke instinctively reacts to the situation at hands and naturally uses an ability to solve the problem she faces. Psylocke's creativity, skill, and raw power will bring home a victory in this fight and I have not even scratched the surface.
Honestly, I could just substitute the word "Psylocke" for Grifter and "Grifter" for Psylocke and this would apply to me as well.
Coming Attractions
IMO, this is what we should do next. It's what I'm doing regardless of what action you take, so for the sake of coherency I suggest you do the same.
Next post, we each lay out a scenario or win condition for each of our respective characters that would allow them to walk out of here with a win. We also show the combat feats of our characters... enemies dispatched and the like (though you've shown some already).
After that, rebut one more time and bring up feats that we've been saving for the end.
@sovereign91001: @thenewbluebeetle007: it is still going on. super busy with graduate school right now and will be free soon once the semester is over.
I agree that I will not go over arguments surrounding Pslocke's feats against and AoA Sabretooth, I think voters will be able to determine who was right or wrong in that part of the debate on their own.
In over a decade? That's odd, I seem to recall him drawing on the power of multiple planets in Avengers vs. X-Men. Exactly, mind control removes their ability to make their own decisions or actions. Meaning that their own skill, or the way they normally utilize their powers, would be different.
Yes Magneto's powers have no been at that level in a while. AvX is not the best source material when it comes to combat feats. In Children of the Atom and Magneto, he thoroughly explains how much his power levels are a fraction of its formal self (Pre House of M). Nevertheless, just to quickly address Psylocke vs Magneto. She encountered Magneto twice in Jim Lee's run of X-Men:
Gallery
As explained in both scans, her ninja skill, stealth, and unique psychic abilities are a perfect recipe to potentially pull off a win against Magneto - on more than one occasion her focus TP energies have hurt a helmeted Juggernaut.. Admittedly, Magneto at these power levels would take majority over her in a straight up one on one fight.
But even if she does use it in combat, Grifter has heat/night vision goggles, meaning seeing her will be no problem.
This won't work on Psylocke. She is invisible to technology and monitoring equipment, as shown in her fight with AoA Sabretooth (where she wrecks him), the high-tech computer monitors and sensors of the room Psylocke later sends AoA Sabretooth can't see her at all. So Grifter's goggles are useless.
Let's move on to some new points you've brought up, starting with Grifter's TK Punch on Midnighter and questioning Psylocke's durability:
TK Punch
One of his most useful abilities is the "TK Punch". This enables him to strike Psylocke from a distance, without her being able to dodge it. He's never used it in succession, but it will definitely faze her if not outright defeat her.
Here he oneshots Midnighter. The same Midnighter who has the following durability feats (attributed to @comicstooge)
By the durability feats you've shown, I believe Grifter can oneshot Psylocke the same way, considering Midnighter is likely her physical superior.
Some major things wrong with this:
Grifter did not really "one shot" Midnighter, as that requires a knock out.
That is a really low showing for Midnighter.
Most importantly: That is not the same Midnighter as the one you showed in the durability examples.The one being punched by Grifter is New 52 Stormwatch Midnighter, who is much weaker than his WildStorm self - which is the one you showed. WildStorm Midnighter easily took blows from 100+ tonners regularly -- why would a TK Punch from Grifter do anything to him? WildStorm Midnighter would slaughter Grifter & Psylocke at the same time in a physical fight. That's beside the point because it's not the same Midnighter you showed.
Up next on the counter train...
TK Blasting
This is something else that I think will be important in this debate. Grifter does not want to make this hand-to-hand, not because he couldn't win but because he's far better long range. So to drive Psylocke back, he will unleash a powerful telekinetic blast.
In the second panel, Grifter uses his telekinesis to unleash a blast of energy that knocks the Suicide Squad back. This attack is immensely powerful, more powerful than Psylocke can hope to protect herself against, and I will show the feats to back it up in my next post when we get into strategy.
I really do not see how this TK Blast is A) immensely powerful or B) something Psylocke could not deal with easily.
Psylocke has (as I've shown) blasted around teams of X-Men with far better stats than Diablo and Deadshot (pictured), who are respectively low-mid and street levelers.
Psylocke has shields strong enough to tank building busting explosions and the brunt of city busting laser beams, and can summon those shields faster than a laser beam post-blast. I've already shown this. Grifter's TK blast (or his guns) are not busting through Psylocke's shields. Period.
. Next...
"Creativity"
I don't believe that creativity with one's powers will result in significant ramifications, at least not the extent that you do. While creativity is important to a battle, pure strength and power can counteract this. For example, many teambusters over the years have been bricks who simply power through (for example Doomsday, Hulk, and Solomon Grundy among others).
However, Grifter has Psylocke beat in this regard as well!
Check out this scan from Grifter 2:
Gallery
Cole Cash, blowing you up with kitchen supplies
Here, Grifter uses kitchen supplies to blow up a Daemonite. Cole had absolutely no idea that the Daemonite was there before seeing it, and he adopted a plan on the fly that was effective in that it eventually resulted in the Daemonite's defeat.
I don't think my creativity point was made clear. Psylocke has shown to be more competent in coming up with ways to use her TK effectively in combat when she feels cornered - like an adaptive measure. In the example with AoA Sabretooth, she used her fly due to the circumstances at hand, it allowed her to gain the edge. More on ways she can and would use her TK in this encounter will be covered.
In your example of Grifter getting "creative" in the kitchen has little to do with creative and more to do with knowing what is combustible. I can throw matches to some gasoline, does that make me creative or does it mean I understand basic chemistry? Not knowing what a Daemonite is isn't relevant either since it does not take a genius to figure out that something that at least looks human will probably get hurt with a flame being blown up in its face. That "feat" is much less applicable than my Psylocke invisibility feat, (which was more to show her power-set - I will get to combat feats later) since that scenario is not relevant to our battlefield and involved lots of environmental context.
Onto the battle strategy...
Battle Strategy
Let's look at what Psylocke is dealing with here from her perspective...
An armed masked man she's never seen before in an abandoned construction site.
Let's look at what Grifter is dealing with here from his perspective...
A scantly clad female armed or holding a katana in an abandoned construction site.
Step 1: Evaluate Your Opponent
Now, if Psylocke was a normal "street" level martial artist/ninja, I would definitely say she would charge into this fight like she would against any unknown gunman - thinking he is fodder. However, Psylocke is also a psychic who has had a "lifespan's worth of training" in a matter of hours, and has continued to train since then. It would not be out of the realm of possibility for a telepath as powerful as Psylocke to detect psionic energies from Grifter. Despite hit resistance against psychics, Psylocke was able to sense the approach presence of Juggernaut between dimension barriers in Uncanny X-Men #333:
Psylocke is an expert in body reading and handles opponents much more threatening than Grifter using this and her skil. In her fight with Dark Beast, a bloodlusted version of Hank McCoy, she was able to read his moves and his motivations, as well as slice the precise muscles required to nullify his attack.
Now before I hear, "Well, Psylocke knows Beast." 1) This is Dark Beast, his mentality and fighting style is completely different. 2) If that was a legit argument, it does not change the fact she read his body, which takes years of training.
Let's keep in mind here, Grifter and Psylocke have morals off in this fight. Grifter sees a ninja in his path, strong chance he's going for an artillery assault or throwing objects via TK to keep the distance between them. to keep the distance. This chance is increased due to "insta-kills via TK" are illegal in this match.
Step 2: Close the Gap
Psylocke has 5 prominent ways she can close the gap between her and Grifter:
Gallery
Physicals: She's consistently dodged and deflected bullet, lasers, and projectiles. In the above scans, Archangel, who is a legit bullet timer with aerial adaptation in his power-set, could not dodge everything being fired at him and Psylocke in the Danger Room.
Shields: Her shields are strong enough to withstand large explosions and can be used in a stationary format as well as in combat, as I've shown.
First scan to the left: As shown her fight with Merlyn, his close range blast was met with no damage to Psylocke as she instantly created a force field layer around her while the concrete walls behind her crumble. She then instantly turns her TK shield into a TK sword, then a TK bat, swatting the villain away. She also tanks a mystically charged punch.
Second scan to the right: Psylocke throws up one of her most potent shield bubbles to date during combat as she describes it was like "trying to pitch a tent at the bottom of the ocean."
Gallery
This plus the several other shield feats alone shows how nothing Grifter wants to throw or shoot at Psylocke is going to damage her one bit if her shields are up.
3. Telekinesis: At base levels, Psylocke's physicals are impressive. Quite frankly, they have been more impressive than Grifter's. Telekinesis, as mentioned and shown earlier, will only give her a bigger boost. She can also use her TK to push back any oncoming assault from Grifter as well as throw objects at him herself. However, Psylocke can use her TK creatively by creating projectile constructs to shoot at Grifter as well. This can leave Betsy with an opening to make it a full frontal confrontation.
From left to right (1 to 4):
Gallery
Psylocke charging at several gunmen and accurately throws a bunch TK knives, killing all of them
While balancing on the X-Wing jet, Psylocke accurately fires a TK crossbow that pierces into the wing of an airplane.
In the next set of panels, we see that Psylocke had TK rope attached to the arrow that pieced into the airplane. As shown in the next set of panels here, Psylocke was able to maintain the integrity of the TK rope line despite having some of her powers drained by Rogue.
In the fourth and final panels, Psylocke knocks around a group of guards with TK whip or swath. Another example of a great offensive range attack to match or outdo Grifter.
These are all effective ways to keep Grifter on his toes while giving Betsy a closer distance.
4. Stealth | Shadow Melding | Teleportation: Being a ninja, stealthis kind of Psylocke's thing. Grifter's "life sense" - which I have yet to see be on any level to Spider-Senses, as you have compared it to, should be nullified with Psylocke's ninja/psychic abilities. Even Deadshot, in Grifter 15 (an issue you've already cited) was able to evade this life sense when he shot a piece of Grifter's ear of off:
His life sense is not fool proof in the least. Psylocke's stealth is renowned in the Marvel Universe. Cyclops came to her to lead a team of stealth specialists, as an offshoot of the X-Force:
Her stealth has allowed her to perform many assassinations without being detected by both high tech security systems, armed guards, and mutants alike.
From left to right (1 - 2):
Gallery
Psylocke effortlessly and quickly enters a heavily guarded facility, killing targets swiftly.
Psylocke is quickly behind guards completely undetected by her X-Men and mutant peers.
Shadow Melding (or "shadow teleporting") is another way Psylocke can cut the distance between her and Grifter.
From left to right (1 - 4):
Gallery
1. Psylocke showing off her Shadow Melding powers for the first time.
2. Psylocke getting the drop on Maggot even after giving him a heads up by speaking to him from the shadows.
3. When Psylocke finally strikes him, it sends him flying and crashing through a marketplace. Maggot has enhanced durability so this is an impressive feat.
4. Psylocke shadow melds/teleports herself and Maggot so quickly that Archangel can barely keep up. Keep in mind Archangel can reach mach speeds.
Everything mentioned in section 2 of this strategy are just the basic ways in which Psylocke can close the gap between her and her gun slinging - telekinetic adversary. Onto the final step...
Step 3: Full Frontal Assault
Psylocke's fighting ability is far superior than Grifter. It's been shown in this debate so far with little to no refutation or evidence showing otherwise. Once this fight gets up close and personal, Grifter will be in a world of trouble. I have already shown Psylocke best AoA Sabretooth and Wolverine in combat, two characters with physical stats far above Grifter's. Here are other examples of Psylocke's notable fighting feats.
From left to right (1 - 10):
Gallery
1. Psylocke has acute and immense knowledge of attacking the right nerves. After just being woken up, she was still abe to pinpoint a direct hit to a cluster of nerves stopping Wolverine in his tracks.
2. Using nerve strikes and calculated strikes effortlessly taking out a number of enemies.
3 - 5. Psylocke is fighting a team of deadly Hand ninjas. In this close encounter fight, she effortlessly dodges and blocks all their strikes and projectiles. In unique Psylocke fashion, she also combines her fighting style with TK attacks for added damage.
6. In a sparring match with Colossus, she easily uses her skills to knock him over, despite Colossus being far stronger, more durable, and a few hundred pounds heavier than her.
7 - 8. Psylocke gets the drop on Typhoid Mary despite giving her a heads up that she was coming for her by announcing her approach via telepathy. Typhoid Mary is used to fighting the likes of Daredevil, yet Psylocke combines her TK powers (by creating TK "whips") and fighting style again to effortlessly take her out.
9 - 10. Psylocke meets her old foe Spiral in Uncanny X-Force. In the older days, Spiral used to give Psylocke a pretty decent beat down, but Psylocke has had a lot of training since those days. In this fight, she easily disarms and beats on the 6-armed ninja assassin so much so that Spiral gives up. To be fair, Spiral was pretty depressed at this point of the series, but the earlier in this series, Psylocke gave Spiral a beat down when they ran into each other in a nightclub - Spiral ended up teleporting away from the fight. In other words, the results of their recent fights have been fairly consistent no matter what state of mind Spiral is in.
The one thing these fights have in common is Psylocke was not using her TK to directly enhance her own physical stats. Adding TK physical enhancement only makes it an even greater majority victory for Psylocke in a close encounter fight with Grifter.
Here are other examples of how hard she can hit with her TK punches.
From left to right (1 - 3):
Gallery
Hercules and Psylocke encounter the 90-tonner Griffin. Griffin is a villain who is used to fighting the likes of Wonder Man. Psylocke hits him with one of her TK punches as he's being held by Hercules.
This single TK punch knocked Griffin out. I would chalk this up as another example of Psylocke's acute knowledge of nerve strikes. I am not saying she regularly has the striking power to knock out a 90 tonner with superhuman durability.
Later on in this story, Psylocke is offended by Hercules, so she gives him a good old TK punch for being a jerk. This punch clearly hurt Hercules to some extent as he is rubbing his jaw afterward.
Now imagine a barrage of these TK punches hitting Grifter, as Psylocke certainly is the more agile and skilled of the two - and the fact she has no morals in this fight. There is no way Grifter can sustain damage from these TK-fueled punches strikes. Quite, it would not take more than one TK punch to wreck Grifter.
All of this mentioned above in Step 3 of the strategy also does not include the fact she will be carrying a katana and her infamous TK katana in this fight, which she can summon or withdraw almost instantly.
Conclusion
I believe Psylocke's array of abilities and superior fighting skills will lead to Grifter's end. She has consistently shown the ability to adapt and instinctively change and enhance what she does during combat - whether it's to shadow meld, add TK to her physicals, using TK weapons, TK shields, or straight physicals. Grifter's dependency on his "life sense" which is not fool proof as shown above will show to be more of a nuisance as he is dealing with not only a skilled ninja but a psionic and telekinetic anamoly.
Once Grifter's guns have run empty, since he won't be hitting Psylocke (Green Arrow has dodged hit gun fire at point blank range), Grifter will resort to using his TK. Psylocke's TK easily out does Grifter's. I have already shown her blowing apart steel bank vaults and leveling multi-story buildings, as well as claiming she used to flatten mountains to train and Marvel Girl admitting Psylocke's TK is well above her own, but in my next (final) post I will show what would happen if Psylocke and Grifter end up in a head to head TK collision. Hint: It won't be pretty for Grifter.
Log in to comment