CaV! Grievous (Eisenfauste) Vs. TPM Maul (PLAYA1)

Grievous (Eisenfauste)

TPM Darth Maul (PLAYA1)

Stipulations

• Legends feats for both
• Opponents begin the fight 50 feet away from each other
• Grievous has 4 lightsabers, Maul has his saberstaff

Battlezone!

@playa1 It's up, you can throw the first punch. I'm eager to see your opening thoughts on this.

@eisenfauste: Tag for votes.

Radical, tag me.

@beaconofstrength: @thenaughtytitan: Sure thingy!

@eisenfauste:

Will when I have time later today.

I'm going to read this through just for Playa's Maul feats, but tag me anyway.

Tag4vote

I’m going with Maul (obviously). While Grievous’ programming in all forms – coupled with training by Dooku – might render him comparable to Maul in terms of technical skill (Maul himself is a Juyo practitioner, making him a ‘’high-level master of multiple forms’’, per Fightsaber), his programming is also a hinderance; he lacks understanding of technique, the training to employ them more efficiently and with finesse and, perhaps most important of all, the Force to accelerate him beyond forms and sequences. As Dooku mocked him, he needs ‘’fear, surprise, and intimidation’’ on his side to succeed – and during a sparring session between Grievous and his MagnaGuards, Dooku swiftly caught his attention and reminded him – despite skill in all forms – of his lack of techniques, branding his ‘’power moves’’ as effective against ‘’Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir’’ but that he would ‘’pity him’’ against real Council members. On the other hand, Maul practiced his skills and abilities for a decade, similarly acquiring high levels of swordskill and a strong connection to the Force – enough to casually handle Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time (the former regarded as one of the most skilled Jedi swordsmen ever and with a wealth of Force feats to confirm his ability, all of which can be found here). While Grievous is definitely an extremely capable and skilled warrior and is capable of holding his own against most Jedi of Council Member quality, he’s not on the level of one of the most skilled, dangerous, and highly-trained Sith Lords of all time (all accolades credited to Maul by The Official Star Wars Fact File 1).

@eisenfauste

Well, if this goes in a good direction, tag me.

tag

Tag me please

@playa1: Alright lets kick this off. I'm going to skip doing an intro and simply head into the debate.

might render him comparable to Maul in terms of technical skill

Might? There is no might he is easily comparable to Maul and actually his superior in terms of sheer technical skill. His knowledge of the seven lightsaber forms and proficiency of them gives him an advantage against Maul in a duel. It'll allow for a degree of unpredictability considering he can throw a blow from form VII counter with form III and then counter attack with form II. Maul can do likewise being a practitioner of Juyo but Grievous being able to pull on all seven forms gives him an edge.

Adding on to just how Grievous is his superior in skill he was able to take on four skilled masters and best them handily

his programming is also a hinderance

His programming makes him unpredictable and efficient.

he lacks understanding of technique, the training to employ them more efficiently and with finesse and, perhaps most important of all

He understands technique just fine considering, as per Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil, he surpassed all of Dooku's previous students in the knowledge of lightsaber technique in mere weeks. The most notable students being Ventress and logically Qui-gon as well. Whom has been touted as one of the most pure swordsman in the Jedi Order. Again this is someone who had comparable enough skill to contest Maul in terms of skill and technique. And Grievous surpassed him in weeks and improved from there.

I can agree he lacks finesse and, as Dooku says, economy. But what he lacks in polish and finesse he easily makes up for in power and speed which I'll go into later on.

perhaps most important of all, the Force to accelerate him beyond forms and sequences

His speed is more than enough for most Jedi, Obi-Wan included, to handle. He likewise can contest easily with Jedi whom have reacted to hypersonic rounds casually. Unless you meant something else by this statement it isn't very relevant.

and during a sparring session between Grievous and his MagnaGuards, Dooku swiftly caught his attention and reminded him – despite skill in all forms – of his lack of techniques, branding his ‘’power moves’’ as effective against ‘’Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir’’

He was more pointing out Grievous's lack of adaptability in terms of consistently using power moves instead of utilizing something with more "finesse". Like I said his technique is just fine.

but that he would ‘’pity him’’ against real Council members.

This claim from Dooku was unsubstantiated considering he already embarrassed Ki-Adi-Mundi and fought evenly with Mace Windu. The former being more impressive considering his repute as a duelist.

On the other hand, Maul practiced his skills and abilities for a decade, similarly acquiring high levels of swordskill and a strong connection to the Force

This really doesn't show that Maul is more skilled than Grievous at all. Grievous demolished Roron Corobb and Foul Moudama, both who had years of experience mastering the blade and their respective forms. His use of 4 blades, which coupled with utilizing multiple forms, was enough to overwhelm their defenses and ended in their deaths.

he’s not on the level of one of the most skilled, dangerous, and highly-trained Sith Lords of all time

Oh he is and I'll be showing why in good time ;)

Hopefully we can take it in this good direction and I'll tag accordingly :)

@masterkungfu

tag

@jayc1324

tag

Will do boys

sure thing

@eisenfauste:

Might? There is no might he is easily comparable to Maul and actually his superior in terms of sheer technical skill. His knowledge of the seven lightsaber forms and proficiency of them gives him an advantage against Maul in a duel. It'll allow for a degree of unpredictability considering he can throw a blow from form VII counter with form III and then counter attack with form II. Maul can do likewise being a practitioner of Juyo but Grievous being able to pull on all seven forms gives him an edge.

With regards to technical skill, the General’s only edge is his programming in all forms. But with Maul’s training and dedication in mind and the accolades given to him (one of the most skilled and trained Sith of all time), I’m inclined to believe his Juyo mastery matches Grievous’ programmed skills.

Adding on to just how Grievous is his superior in skill he was able to take on four skilled masters and best them handily

A fight where Grievous enjoyed all the edges Dooku told him he needed to be successful: fear, surprise, intimidation. Pretty much all of the Jedi besides Mundi were shitting themselves; exactly what Grievous needed. Beyond that, I believe the Jedi were exhausted from prior combat.

His programming makes him unpredictable and efficient.

He was more pointing out Grievous's lack of adaptability in terms of consistently using power moves instead of utilizing something with more "finesse". Like I said his technique is just fine.

Those two sound pretty contradictory to me, bro. If Grievous sucks at adapting to the game, his unpredictability isn’t going to mean anything.

But since unpredictability is one if his strengths, I’ll tell you what: Dooku wasn’t referring to adaptability – he was referring to how most seasoned Jedi Council members would probably hand Grievous his ass if he didn’t advance past the simple power-sequences.

He understands technique just fine considering, as per Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil, he surpassed all of Dooku's previous students in the knowledge of lightsaber technique in mere weeks. The most notable students being Ventress and logically Qui-gon as well. Whom has been touted as one of the most pure swordsman in the Jedi Order. Again this is someone who had comparable enough skill to contest Maul in terms of skill and technique. And Grievous surpassed him in weeks and improved from there.

He surpassed all of Dooku’s ­previous students because he was programmed with skill in every lightsaber form; while he had the ability to utilize them all, it doesn’t necessarily mean he understood them.­ As Dooku observed during a sparring session between Grievous and his MagnaGuards (the same one I referenced earlier), they were ‘’going through their programmed motions – An Ataro attack answered by Shii-Cho; Soresu answered by Lus-ma… Dooku couldn’t suffer another moment of it.’’ Maul’s training definitely matches Grievous’ programming.

His speed is more than enough for most Jedi, Obi-Wan included, to handle. He likewise can contest easily with Jedi whom have reacted to hypersonic rounds casually. Unless you meant something else by this statement it isn't very relevant.

I didn’t refer to speed. I referred to how he lacks the Force to guide his attacks and make him more than just a practitioner of forms – a disadvantage against someone as skilled and powerful as Maul.

This claim from Dooku was unsubstantiated considering he already embarrassed Ki-Adi-Mundi and fought evenly with Mace Windu. The former being more impressive considering his repute as a duelist.

Not really. I addressed Mundi earlier (and when was Mundi ever reputed as a swordsman?) and Dooku knows enough of both Mace and Grievous to compare them (he was a great friend and peer of the former and coached the latter). I don’t see any reason not to believe Dooku’s words.

This really doesn't show that Maul is more skilled than Grievous at all. Grievous demolished Roron Corobb and Foul Moudama, both who had years of experience mastering the blade and their respective forms. His use of 4 blades, which coupled with utilizing multiple forms, was enough to overwhelm their defenses and ended in their deaths.

That’s a pretty far fetched comparison. Neither Roron nor Foul have anything to their name to suggest Maul wouldn’t mow them down in a similar manner.

Oh he is and I'll be showing why in good time ;)

Nah. Maul handled Qui-Gon pretty casually, one of the most skilled Jedi ever and a powerful Force wielder as well. On the other hand, Grievous needs favorable circumstances to be a real threat to any Jedi of considerable power and skill. Maul wins, with moderate difficulty.

Initial Considerations

A little late for initial considerations but I believe this will have bearing on a how the fight goes.

First off I'd like to cite the disparity in strength between the two is. . . noticeably in favor of Grievous. He's an absolute monster when it comes to strength. His showings of raw power below are enough to suggest Maul will have some difficulty continually parrying his blows for any length of time. A long fight between the two will not favor Maul, even with his great endurance.

Gallery

Read from right to left :p. As seen above in Clone Wars Adventures, Vol. 3 Grievous possesses enough strength to utterly ragdoll Durge. He tosses him through several statues and the alien still has enough inertia to maul (< lol get it?) a durasteel speeder.

Another fantastic strength showing is when he was dueling against several Magnaguards in The Eye's of Revolution.

He has enough strength to shatter their phrik alloy electrostaff's which no sell lightsaber strikes. Just to add on how tough Phrik is in the comic Star Wars: Sand Blasted a Dark Trooper Phase II is able to survive a crash landing with only minor scratches and dents in it's armor.....

Suffice to say Maul's endurance will be taxed in this fight considering the strength Grievous will be striking him at. Especially since a Jedi with inferior strength feats was able to send blows at Maul which he felt "shudder" throughout his body.

But he is graceful, this Jedi. The sand doesn't seem to hamper him. He is never off balance, no matter where or how I strike. Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle. Dust and sand rise around us. I never lose my rhythm.

-Source Episode I Journal: Darth Maul (credit to nova)

Another relevant topic I would like to touch on is the gap in durability between the two. In a lightsaber fight one glancing blow on an opponent could prove to be incredibly detrimental and or fatal. Although Maul has a good damage soak, being kicked by Grievous, electrocuted by Dooku, battered by a Wampa etc. it's not comparable to Grievous in the slightest.

As seen below he tanks getting two lightsabers slammed into his back by ventress with no visible damage taken....

Another fantastic showing of durability is in Star Wars The Clone Wars (animated series), where he eats a rocket to the face with zero damage.

The advantage here for Grievous is that only the most surgical strike by Maul will be able to cause damage to Grievous. While Grievous could strike any part of Maul's body and cause damage.

One more relevant topic I'd like to touch on is experience between the two when it comes to facing force/ non-force users. Grievous has been cited as one of the most prolific jedi slaughterers in galactic history,

Meaning in this fight to the eye's of Grievous he is facing a "sith" force user. His many combat experiences with Jedi/Sith will give him general knowledge of Maul's capabilities. His opponent, in his eye's, will most likely be decently fast, can amp his strength is utilizing Jar'Kai etc. On the flip side of the coin Maul has no idea what he is facing. He has no idea how durable he is, how fast he is, his use of 4 lightsabers, his titanic strength and so forth. To be fair his number of years fighting Jedi won't give him a clear edge in this duel but I would say a noticeable one. Grievous can pull out all his blades, charge in and begin on breaking Maul's defense. His use of all 7 forms combined with varying attack angles and speeds could very well throw Maul off balance considering he has to defend himself out and figure out what kind of opponent he is facing.

With regards to technical skill, the General’s only edge is his programming in all forms. But with Maul’s training and dedication in mind and the accolades given to him (one of the most skilled and trained Sith of all time), I’m inclined to believe his Juyo mastery matches Grievous’ programmed skills.

It's more than just an edge, it's an advantage. He can literally answer any of Maul's saber style's with it's counter or it's equal. Tit for tat. Maul is fantastically trained and I'm aware of his accolades. Yet Grievous is equally as well trained, being trained by one of the best duelists in Star Wars mythos (dooku). On top of that Grievous has a very small learning curve considering he passed all of Dooku's apprentices (one of these includes ventress) in skill in mere weeks. Years of training and mastery in his respective lightsber style's is surpassed by Grievous's superior droid programming that allows him to create and implement fighting algorithmns that he's used to overwhelm the defenses of Obi-Wan's brilliant Soresu lightsaber form....

A fight where Grievous enjoyed all the edges Dooku told him he needed to be successful: fear, surprise, intimidation. Pretty much all of the Jedi besides Mundi were shitting themselves; exactly what Grievous needed. Beyond that, I believe the Jedi were exhausted from prior combat.

I find this post.....pleasing. He only had surprise when he squashes poor padawan Sha'a Gi lol. The jedi Knights and masters rallied around Ki-Adi-Mundi when he expressed his resolve to fight Grievous, "we're jedi!". Yes they were previously fatigued from combat against the droid armies, but considering any competent Jedi/Sith is able to revitalize their body with the force I find the effects from previous combat to be negligible. Grievous out dueled them handily due to speed and skill disparities between the party and himself.

Those two sound pretty contradictory to me, bro. If Grievous sucks at adapting to the game, his unpredictability isn’t going to mean anything.

But since unpredictability is one if his strengths, I’ll tell you what: Dooku wasn’t referring to adaptability – he was referring to how most seasoned Jedi Council members would probably hand Grievous his ass if he didn’t advance past the simple power-sequences.

I don't think you understand what I was saying. Grievous, in that fight, was simply using power moves and not adapting finesses or throwing blows at different angles with different strength placed between each of the blows as well as using economy. He learns from his mistakes as can be seen with his fight against Windu and Obi-Wan.

He surpassed all of Dooku’s ­previous students because he was programmed with skill in every lightsaber form; while he had the ability to utilize them all, it doesn’t necessarily mean he understood them.­

You keep citing simple programming in all 7 forms as to why he surpassed Dooku's previous students...This isn't true at all, he did it through understanding all the forms and using them in such a way that displayed his proficiency and sheer skill in the art of dueling. To put it another way, simply knowing all 7 forms doesn't mean anything considering Sora Bulq is knowledgeable in all 7 forms and he got beaten by Mace Windu and curbstomped by Dooku. Taking this into account Grievous has done so by sheer skill and utilizing his programming to the fullest and utilize all 7 forms in one fluid lightsaber form.

As Dooku observed during a sparring session between Grievous and his MagnaGuards (the same one I referenced earlier), they were ‘’going through their programmed motions – An Ataro attack answered by Shii-Cho; Soresu answered by Lus-ma… Dooku couldn’t suffer another moment of it.’’ Maul’s training definitely matches Grievous’ programming.

I think what your getting at here is Grievous's fighting style is all pre-programmed and he goes through the same motions. And to an extent you're right, but your not taking into account this apparent "predictability". Dooku has been training Grievous for close to a year or so. Through all this time of course you'd be able to see some form of static dueling develop. To him Grievous hit a ceiling, employing the same moves and the "unpredictable" has become the "predictable". His form of programming will off balance Maul considering he has never seen anything like it or fought anyone, during this time period, with this amount of versatility. He has mastery in his forms, I'll give you that, but his skill is not comparable. It isn't a tier behind either but from feats and abilities Maul is slightly behind him

I didn’t refer to speed. I referred to how he lacks the Force to guide his attacks and make him more than just a practitioner of forms – a disadvantage against someone as skilled and powerful as Maul.

Elaborate.

Not really. I addressed Mundi earlier (and when was Mundi ever reputed as a swordsman?) and Dooku knows enough of both Mace and Grievous to compare them (he was a great friend and peer of the former and coached the latter). I don’t see any reason not to believe Dooku’s words.

I was referring to Windu being a proficient swordsman. And as to Dooku's statement it's unsubstantiated considering he mentioned basically "god help you if you face a council member" and then he goes on to annihilate Mundi. And what statement of Dooku are you talking about where he compared Windu and Grievous? He said he'd have trouble with high tier council members such as Cin Drallig and Mace......

That’s a pretty far fetched comparison. Neither Roron nor Foul have anything to their name to suggest Maul wouldn’t mow them down in a similar manner.

My point was in answer to you comparing Maul's decades of mastering several lightsaber forms giving him an even edge in skill against Grievous. I was pointing out that Roron and Foul both had years to master their respective forms, which ultimately meant nothing against Grievous...Essentially years of practicing the blade, even an accolade, doesn't put him in the same tier of dueling as Grievous....

Nah. Maul handled Qui-Gon pretty casually, one of the most skilled Jedi ever and a powerful Force wielder as well.

Casually? Alright let's look at their first fight,

The Jedi meets my first blow, blocking it. He has expected my flying maneuver.

If an opponent can read you, the fight is over. I don't like that the Jedi was perfectly prepared for my first blow. Within seconds, I throw away my usual combinations and strategies. This Jedi seems to know how I will move before I do.

But he cannot match my strength. I sense this. And I feel his surprise at this. Yet he does not let his puzzlement slow him down. I tell myself that this man has never met an enemy like me before, and it frightens him.

Your fear is justified. Prepare to die.

I accelerate my pace, calling on my anger to increase my power. My footwork has never been so brilliant. I use the shifting sand as resistance. My lightness and quickness will defeat this man, with his large body, his heavy movements.

But he is graceful, this Jedi. The sand doesn't see to hamper him. He is never off balance, no matter where or how I strike.

Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle. Dust and sand rise around us. I never lose my rhythm.

The Jedi calls to the boy, tells him to go back to the ship. The cowardly boy runs off. After I defeat my enemy, I will find the second Jedi.

But I must confess that this Jedi is a challenge. If I leap, he is with me. If I turn, he follows me. He meets my ferocity with his own. His lightsaber swirls and hums, and several times comes closer than I like.

It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best.

This realization sends more rage pumping into my body. I am angry at myself, but I use the anger to fuel the dark side. I feel the Force come from the Jedi and I send it back to him, showing him that I, too, have a connection, and it is stronger than his. I launch a furious counterattack. I feel like the Jedi is beginning to tire, and triumph rises like a red mist before my eyes. I gain the advantage. I am winning. I will defeat him.

I have been surprised at his skill, but now I am confident of victory. I will savor each moment of this battle.

Even through his fatigue, his blows still have power. He is a large man with impressive strength. He will fall heavily, like a monument.

I feel a savage pleasure course through me. His weakness feeds my power. I drive him back, spin around when he parries, drive him back again. The dust chokes my throat, but I don't notice.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Alright so first off they fight as near equals in this fight. Mauls muses at how skilled his opponent is, he can read him, knows what he is going to do next etc. He even is surprised by his skill. Even though he has the advantages in strength, speed Qui-Gon still stalemates him. On top of this he has brilliant foot work, some of the best he's ever had. . .and still Jinn matches him. Of course Maul points out he has a disadvantage, his wound, yet he even acknowledges that it's imperceptible so honestly in this fight he really wasn't hampered. Jinn was fighting him to a standstill. Only until "I feel the Jedi is beginning to tire," at this point and only then does he muse he can press his advantage. Jinn of course jumps ship and escapes out of there. The most important part that I will touch on in their next fight is after this short scuffle, most likely a minute at most or so, he's utterly exhausted.

Next we look at the fight where Maul "handily" beat Jinn. In this fight he was solely focusing on defense to lure them to the generator room, separate them, and beat them. He's incredibly tactical so he gets brownie points for this. But being on the defensive gives said opponent an advantage when facing duelists of at least notable skill. There is no risk of him overextending, like what is possible in an offensive attack, and getting stabbed or struck down. By taking his time and drawing them toward the generator room he dragged on the fight considerably longer than when his first duel with Jinn whom was fatigued by the short fight. Once they reach the generator room and are separated Obi-Wan directly points out how tired his master must be considering how long this fight as dragged on compared to the previous one. Maul then fights Jinn by himself and his only able to demolish him because he has greater endurance and Jinn was exhausted by this time......

To sum up Maul did not casually beat Qui-Gon Jinn. They fought as near equals already in the first fight. Their skill should be pretty close between them. Only when Jinn was low on endurance could Maul stomp him. . . .

circumstances yo.

On the other hand, Grievous needs favorable circumstances to be a real threat to any Jedi of considerable power and skill. Maul wins, with moderate difficulty.

Heh we'll see.

@ques1n You're up matey.

This is a most pleasing development. Expect a reply soon enough.

@ques1n: Wait, are you Playa?

@eisenfauste: Interesting debate so far... feel you represented General G. well enough? :)

@thevivas: He is indeed.

@i_like_swords: Lol makes sense.

Tag me for votes.

@merulezall: Thanks, I hope we can keep it interesting. I guess when it comes to votes we'll see if I represented him well enough lol :P

@wollfmyth209 Will do

@eisenfauste: I guess we will :)?

@eisenfauste

This will be my final post. You can have one more of simply take it to votes, whatever you prefer.

A little late for initial considerations but I believe this will have bearing on a how the fight goes.

First off I'd like to cite the disparity in strength between the two is. . . noticeably in favor of Grievous. He's an absolute monster when it comes to strength. His showings of raw power below are enough to suggest Maul will have some difficulty continually parrying his blows for any length of time. A long fight between the two will not favor Maul, even with his great endurance.

Read from right to left :p. As seen above in Clone Wars Adventures, Vol. 3 Grievous possesses enough strength to utterly ragdoll Durge. He tosses him through several statues and the alien still has enough inertia to maul (< lol get it?) a durasteel speeder.

Another fantastic strength showing is when he was dueling against several Magnaguards in The Eye's of Revolution.

He has enough strength to shatter their phrik alloy electrostaff's which no sell lightsaber strikes. Just to add on how tough Phrik is in the comic Star Wars: Sand Blasted a Dark Trooper Phase II is able to survive a crash landing with only minor scratches and dents in it's armor.....

Suffice to say Maul's endurance will be taxed in this fight considering the strength Grievous will be striking him at. Especially since a Jedi with inferior strength feats was able to send blows at Maul which he felt "shudder" throughout his body.

No doubt the General is strong. But not to an extent that will really matter. Beyond Maul's own feats of strength (casually breaking apart steel binders with his hands, anyone?), we see several Force adepts weaker than Maul (both physically and in the Force) hold up against him very well, such as Koth and Fisto. Likewise, Dooku appears to handle his strength just fine (and Maul is definitely more muscular than the Count, despite his impressive fitness by age some-80's).

Another relevant topic I would like to touch on is the gap in durability between the two. In a lightsaber fight one glancing blow on an opponent could prove to be incredibly detrimental and or fatal. Although Maul has a good damage soak, being kicked by Grievous, electrocuted by Dooku, battered by a Wampa etc. it's not comparable to Grievous in the slightest.

As seen below he tanks getting two lightsabers slammed into his back by ventress with no visible damage taken....

Another fantastic showing of durability is in Star Wars The Clone Wars (animated series), where he eats a rocket to the face with zero damage.

The advantage here for Grievous is that only the most surgical strike by Maul will be able to cause damage to Grievous. While Grievous could strike any part of Maul's body and cause damage.

In the movie (and perhaps TCW - never watched that show), we see Obi-Wan slice off Grievous' arms one by one without any problems, forcing him to flee in the end. Grievous' rocket-tanking abilities are pretty much irrelevant when lightsabers have proven sufficient.

One more relevant topic I'd like to touch on is experience between the two when it comes to facing force/ non-force users. Grievous has been cited as one of the most prolific jedi slaughterers in galactic history,

Meaning in this fight to the eye's of Grievous he is facing a "sith" force user. His many combat experiences with Jedi/Sith will give him general knowledge of Maul's capabilities. His opponent, in his eye's, will most likely be decently fast, can amp his strength is utilizing Jar'Kai etc. On the flip side of the coin Maul has no idea what he is facing. He has no idea how durable he is, how fast he is, his use of 4 lightsabers, his titanic strength and so forth. To be fair his number of years fighting Jedi won't give him a clear edge in this duel but I would say a noticeable one. Grievous can pull out all his blades, charge in and begin on breaking Maul's defense. His use of all 7 forms combined with varying attack angles and speeds could very well throw Maul off balance considering he has to defend himself out and figure out what kind of opponent he is facing.

Maul doesn't need to know how strong, fast, durable etc. Grievous is. Why would he? The Force tells him as much as he needs to know. And yes, Grievous' use of four lightsabers will obviously be what Maul has to be careful about. But as Bane proved against Kas'im, sufficient strength in the Force is far more important than mastery of every form.

It's more than just an edge, it's an advantage. He can literally answer any of Maul's saber style's with it's counter or it's equal. Tit for tat.

Not really. If he could, he would beat any Jedi and Sith in single combat.

Maul is fantastically trained and I'm aware of his accolades. Yet Grievous is equally as well trained, being trained by one of the best duelists in Star Wars mythos (dooku).

Grievous is as well trained as Maul? Not even close. To my knowledge, Grievous' training has not even been elaborated upon other than sparring sessions against Dooku and MagnaGuards. Maul has actually been credited for his training by out-of-universe sourcebooks; it was harsher, from an earlier age and more ambitious. Really, Grievous' training does even come close to compare and I think it's ridiculous to suggest as much.

On top of that Grievous has a very small learning curve considering he passed all of Dooku's apprentices (one of these includes ventress) in skill in mere weeks.

That Grievous surpassed Ventress in lightsaber skill has nothing to do with his own learning curve. He did so because of his programming in the forms and some mild coaching by Dooku. And Maul is more skilled than Ventress, so really, you have no point here.

Years of training and mastery in his respective lightsber style's is surpassed by Grievous's superior droid programming that allows him to create and implement fighting algorithmns that he's used to overwhelm the defenses of Obi-Wan's brilliant Soresu lightsaber form....

And then Obi-Wan pretty much handed Grievous his ass and forced him to flee. Your point?

I find this post.....pleasing. He only had surprise when he squashes poor padawan Sha'a Gi lol. The jedi Knights and masters rallied around Ki-Adi-Mundi when he expressed his resolve to fight Grievous, "we're jedi!".

Similarly pleasing to how I found your mom? Even after Mundi's brave roar, we clearly see even Jedi Master Ti's worrying glance and Mundi sweating and after that, the General enjoys surprise as he drops from the ceiling.

Yes they were previously fatigued from combat against the droid armies, but considering any competent Jedi/Sith is able to revitalize their body with the force I find the effects from previous combat to be negligible.

Do I sense...

By taking his time and drawing them toward the generator room he dragged on the fight considerably longer than when his first duel with Jinn whom was fatigued by the short fight. Once they reach the generator room and are separated Obi-Wan directly points out how tired his master must be considering how long this fight as dragged on compared to the previous one. Maul then fights Jinn by himself and his only able to demolish him because he has greater endurance and Jinn was exhausted by this time......

... a double standard? Either the Jedi whom Grievous fought were exhausted just like you claim Qui-Gon was or Qui-Gon was able to revitalize himself like ''any competend Jedi'' could. You can't have both as you so subtlety tried to, bro.

Grievous out dueled them handily due to speed and skill disparities between the party and himself.

Besides the obvious exaggeration of Grievous' abilities in his (I believe) first-ever live-appearance in Star Wars... prove it.

I don't think you understand what I was saying. Grievous, in that fight, was simply using power moves and not adapting finesses or throwing blows at different angles with different strength placed between each of the blows as well as using economy. He learns from his mistakes as can be seen with his fight against Windu and Obi-Wan.

Grievous lost to both Mace and Obi-Wan, so no, not really.

You keep citing simple programming in all 7 forms as to why he surpassed Dooku's previous students...This isn't true at all, he did it through understanding all the forms and using them in such a way that displayed his proficiency and sheer skill in the art of dueling.

Dooku's observations tells a different story, bro.

To put it another way, simply knowing all 7 forms doesn't mean anything considering Sora Bulq is knowledgeable in all 7 forms and he got beaten by Mace Windu and curbstomped by Dooku. Taking this into account Grievous has done so by sheer skill and utilizing his programming to the fullest and utilize all 7 forms in one fluid lightsaber form.

I genuinely have no idea what point you're trying to convey. Bulq was a master of every form and reputed as one of the most skilled lightsaber instructors the Jedi ever had. But since Grievous' broader form mastery is his only edge on Maul, I suggest you take your comment back and that you take it back quickly.

I think what your getting at here is Grievous's fighting style is all pre-programmed and he goes through the same motions. And to an extent you're right, but your not taking into account this apparent "predictability". Dooku has been training Grievous for close to a year or so. Through all this time of course you'd be able to see some form of static dueling develop. To him Grievous hit a ceiling, employing the same moves and the "unpredictable" has become the "predictable".

That's my point. Why did you repeat it?

His form of programming will off balance Maul considering he has never seen anything like it or fought anyone, during this time period, with this amount of versatility. He has mastery in his forms, I'll give you that, but his skill is not comparable. It isn't a tier behind either but from feats and abilities Maul is slightly behind him

Maul has skill in Juyo, requiring high-level mastery of at least two additional forms (so he has considerable skill in at least three out of seven forms). He also has experience against Ataru and Soresu from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and recognized Komari Vosa's use of Jar'Kai when they fought. And again, I refer you to Bane and how he was beating Kas'im despite Kas'im's superior form mastery.

Elaborate.

Forms and sequences are just the foundation for Force wielders, something to model themselves after. Once the Force wielder becomes powerful enough, the Force and its influence becomes the priority - Kas'im, despite his focus on all of the forms, was quick to mention as much to Bane and even deemed Bane ''beyond forms and sequences'' when Bane inquired about more form- and sequence practice. Not only does the Force help you predict from which angles your enemy will attack, it functions as an extension of your lightsaber - it will, with proper focus and mastery - guide your attacks beyond simple forms and sequences. In combination with his already impressive form mastery and training, his impressive Force skills is a huge advantage over Grievous, who is still stuck at the start.

I was referring to Windu being a proficient swordsman.

Grievous didn't fight on par with Mace. While it might come off that way, he later admits to himself that Dooku had warned him of Mace's skills and ''now he knew'' and that he was glad that his MagnaGuards hadn't survived to observes his performance (and this is taking into consideration Grievous' self-confidence, ignorance of the Jedi's abilities and his high thoughts of himself).

And as to Dooku's statement it's unsubstantiated considering he mentioned basically "god help you if you face a council member" and then he goes on to annihilate Mundi.

Already addressed Mundi; the General enjoyed all the edges that Dooku informed him of.

And what statement of Dooku are you talking about where he compared Windu and Grievous

You argued that Dooku's claim was unsubstantiated. I pointed out Dooku's knowledge of them both (Mace and Grievous) and how his claim is pretty valid to put stock into.

He said he'd have trouble with high tier council members such as Cin Drallig and Mace......

He lost to Mace and Drallig is master of all forms and one of the most skilled Jedi of the time. There's nothing jaw-dropping 'bout Dooku's claim.

My point was in answer to you comparing Maul's decades of mastering several lightsaber forms giving him an even edge in skill against Grievous. I was pointing out that Roron and Foul both had years to master their respective forms, which ultimately meant nothing against Grievous...Essentially years of practicing the blade, even an accolade, doesn't put him in the same tier of dueling as Grievous....

Right, except that, by feats and accolades, these guys' training and form mastery are not even close to Maul's level. Your comparison falls short.

Alright so first off they fight as near equals in this fight. Mauls muses at how skilled his opponent is, he can read him, knows what he is going to do next etc. He even is surprised by his skill. Even though he has the advantages in strength, speed Qui-Gon still stalemates him. On top of this he has brilliant foot work, some of the best he's ever had. . .and still Jinn matches him. Of course Maul points out he has a disadvantage, his wound, yet he even acknowledges that it's imperceptible so honestly in this fight he really wasn't hampered. Jinn was fighting him to a standstill. Only until "I feel the Jedi is beginning to tire," at this point and only then does he muse he can press his advantage.

Maul's wound clearly plagued him a lot; if you'll notice, while he does call his wound ''imperceptible'', he immediately notes ''it is there'' and that ''he is not as his best''.

Next we look at the fight where Maul "handily" beat Jinn. In this fight he was solely focusing on defense to lure them to the generator room, separate them, and beat them. He's incredibly tactical so he gets brownie points for this. But being on the defensive gives said opponent an advantage when facing duelists of at least notable skill. There is no risk of him overextending, like what is possible in an offensive attack, and getting stabbed or struck down. By taking his time and drawing them toward the generator room he dragged on the fight considerably longer than when his first duel with Jinn whom was fatigued by the short fight.

Nah. Maul were handing them their asses, bro. Qui-Gon's own musings:

Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order. The Jedi Master he had trained under had considered him one of the best the Master had taught in his more than four hundred years in the order. Qui-Gon had fought in conflicts all across the galaxy in the span of his life and against odds so great that many others would not have stood a chance. He had survived battles that had tested his skill and resolve in every conceivable way.

But on this day, he had met his match. The Sith Lord he battled with Obi - Wan was more than his equal in weapons training, and he had the advantage of being younger and stronger. Qui-Gon was nearing sixty; his youth was behind him and his strength was beginning to diminish. His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him.

Obi-Wan brought youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened. Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.

--The Phantom Menace

And an out-of-universe source:

Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi's excellent use of form IV's acrobatic maneuvers are little more than delaying tactics against the form VII skills of Darth Maul.

--Insider 62: Fightsaber

And Maul's musings:

Maul advanced toward Qui-Gon and spun, deflecting blows from both Jedi as the fight shifted across the hangar deck. Rapidly spinning his lightsaber, be anticipated their moves with ease. Having expected a greater challenge from Qui-Gon and Оbi-Wan, he felt even more disgusted by them. But if the Jedi held no surprises in combat, Maul knew he had his Master to thank for that. If not for his Master, he never would have been a match for two Jedi at the same time.

--The Wrath of Darth Maul

Once they reach the generator room and are separated Obi-Wan directly points out how tired his master must be considering how long this fight as dragged on compared to the previous one. Maul then fights Jinn by himself and his only able to demolish him because he has greater endurance and Jinn was exhausted by this time......

This was the double standard I touched on earlier, so I am not going to address it before you do.

To sum up Maul did not casually beat Qui-Gon Jinn. They fought as near equals already in the first fight. Their skill should be pretty close between them. Only when Jinn was low on endurance could Maul stomp him. . . .

Not really. All sources that I know of and the three excerpts above present Maul as pretty casually defending himself and drawing them into a place of his own choosing.

Heh we'll see.

Just to re-post my stance: Grievous is a dangerous warrior skilled in all the classic forms but is hindered by his programming; without the circumstances in his favor, as Dooku mentions, he is in most cases not good enough to compete with the best of the Jedi and we see him lose to Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto among others. Maul, on the other hand, is extremely well trained and of comparable form mastery, not to mention with very potent Force abilities to aid him and with better feats and accolades in general.

:)

@ques1nsaid:

Similarly pleasing to how I found your mom?

@ques1n:

Similarly pleasing to how I found your mom?

If you don't want to take this debate seriously and be insulting then I have no reason to take you seriously and therefore debate with you. Thought you grew up bud, apparently not.

Would you rather him find your mom unappealing?

thats a nice pic of Grievous lol

I lol'd at this one. It was a little joke which I crossed out on purpose. If you find that insulting, you're going to have a hard time on the internet and in real life too. But if you don't want to continue, that's cool: let it be known that your concession is accepted and will be stored in my chamber of victims.

@ques1n:

If you find that insulting, you're going to have a hard time on the internet and in real life too

It is an insult, a generic and beaten to death insult on the internet admittedly.

But if you don't want to continue, that's cool:

I'd just rather not banter with a teenager tbh.

let it be known that your concession is accepted and will be stored in my chamber of victims.

Predictable. If you'd like to think you beat me here then be my guest, fine with me.

@ques1n: @eisenfauste:

T4V

@wut said:

@ques1n: @eisenfauste:

T4V

There are no votes lol. Guy doesn't want to continue. So yeah, seems like a victory to me. :>

Only in a SW debate.

@ques1n: Since it is over, I vote for Eisenfauste. He had the better argument.

@eisenfauste: That's actually just him playing around, lolol