Welcome to the uphill battle of myself and two old friends of mine.
In one corner we have the Indestructible Hulk represented by @ghostravage. As well New 52 Superman by @lvenger.
In the other there is myself, @sirfizzwhizz, defending the honor of Invincible, Omni Man, Thragg, and Battle Beast.
As I agreed to make the opening post, I shall try and make good on that promise and begin this debate in earnest. Best of luck to debating both me and GhostRavage at the same time @sirfizzwhizz. In spite of your team's numbers advantage, you'll definitely need it when facing the team that won against the Stable Sentry/Goku combination ;)
Thus, here's my introductory outline post for the character I shall be representing in this CAV. Fresh from victory in his Death Battle rematch, recognised throughout the world regardless of whether they're comic book, pop culture fans, geeks or not and one of the most iconic fictional characters in human history and known as Kal-El of Krypton or Clark Kent of Earth. Certain story elements, alien origins and power sets are almost certainly taken in 2-3 of my opponent's team's characters from the character I am representing. And I shall argue why The Man of Tomorrow and one of DC's mightiest heroes shall be able to defeat the Skybound suckers who'll be fighting him. Because they won't be facing a bird or a plane, but the New 52/Post Flashpoint Superman.
As a baby, Kal-El of Krypton was rocketed from the doomed planet by his scientist father Jor El and his wife Lara-Lor Van-El to escape the planet's destruction to be sent to another planet under a yellow sun where he would be safer. His rocket crashed in a nearby cornfield in Kansas, Smallville and the nearest bystanders were the Midwestern couple Jonathan and Martha Kent. They took the baby back to their home before the government and military arrived to confiscate the ship and any alien life forms it may have contained. Raised as if he were their own son, Kal-El was named Clark Kent and grew up in the humble town of Smallville. His powers manifested at a much earlier age as a baby and a child rather than in puberty during the previous continuity (though more similar to his Golden Age power levels than modern powers.) Upon his parents' deaths in a tragic car accident (actually caused by a 5th Dimensional being called Vyndktvx), Clark left Smallville to go travelling before heading to the city of Metropolis, where he worked for the Daily Star rather than the Daily Planet. Valuing his parents' teachings and upbringing, he decided to use his powers to help those who could not defend themselves against the abuse of power and greedy from the wealthy and corrupt men. Soon, there were rumours of a man wearing a blue T-Shirt and a red cape stopping criminals and tycoons alike. Not many knew about the existence of a 'Superman.' But after being captured by a government division headed by Lex Luthor, an alien invasion from the Coluan known as Brainiac who miniaturised Metropolis into a bottle city and the discovery of his alien birthright, Clark Kent became the more familiar and publically accepted hero recognised throughout the world as Superman.
As discussed earlier, it's more likely that your team's characterisation, personalities and teamwork would result in Battle Beast going after Hulk due to Hulk looking like a strong opponent to fight. And whilst my Invincible knowledge is not close to equaling yours, Thragg is more likely to go with Battle Beast, a foe he fought evenly in his imprisonment currently than he is likely to work with Mark or Omni-Man. Besides, father and son have fought together in the past and would probably do so again. In any case, this leaves our match ups as follows; Hulk vs Thragg & Battle Beast and Superman vs Invincible & Omni-Man.
Whilst Superman is facing the more coordinated pair of Viltrumites, I do not believe their combined physical might will be enough to overpower the Kryptonian powerhouse. They may have the same flying brick powerset that Superman had originally, but I assert that Superman outclasses the combined physical might of the Viltrumite and half-Viltrumite, and that Superman's energy projection, versatility and tactics will be more than adequate against his pair of foes. I'll open with some basic feats that alone make Superman a match for his opponents.
The one area I know you've admitted to the Viltrumites being inferior to Superman is pure and raw physical strength. Even Superman's more average feats by powerhouse standards easily match what the Invincible characters have done. Take this page from Superman #9 where Superman lifts a Russian military submarine out of the depths of the ocean onto the surface of the sea. Military-class subs weigh thousands of tons (and the weight doubles if submerged underwater.) According to Supes, the chambers were also lined with lead, and lead itself is pretty dense (11.36 grams/cm-cubed). So Superman lifting this sub out of the water with ease is nothing to overlook lightly.
Superman's also strong enough to move significantly large objects falling to the ground at a rapid pace. Like in not too long ago's Superman #38 where he moves half of a falling skyscraper plummeting towards the ground and a crowd of innocent bystanders.
He's lifted the Daily Planet globe and thrown it as easily as a bowling ball at a flame monster in Superman #1.
And Superman's used a cargo ship like a battering ram against the powerful government alien agent of The Machine, Wraith in Superman Unchained #8 (you'll be seeing plenty of feats from that issue, I never got to use them in my last New 52 Superman CAV.)
From some research I did into the specifics, stats and weight of the cargo ship in this feat, even the smallest of cargo ships can weigh thousands of tonnes on average. And Superman got this ship from an unknown destination meaning he had to fly it into the Gobi Desert where this feat occurs.
Moving on, I'm a battle forums user who observes the difference between lifting and striking strength in comic book characters. Just because you can move a planet doesn't mean you can destroy one. With that said, I believe Superman's striking feats also surpass what Invincible and Omni-Man have done in their near decade's worth of comics despite only being around for less than 4 years of this incarnation's comics. Let me show off some striking feats.
Two particular scans of Batman/Superman #5 demonstrate some decent punching power from Superman. The first scan has Superman punch Mongul's ship to stop it crashing into Metropolis harbour only for the shockwave to shatter windows up and down the bay. And the second is Superman punching Mongul so hard in the sea, he's making waves with Mongul quite literally.
Superman's punched the more powerful Kryptonian H'El hard enough and precise enough to be sent into a used cars factory without hurting anyone in Superman #14.
Whilst bleeding from an intangible knife phased into his chest by Ghost Soldier in Action Comics #29, Superman could still pound the ground with one fist hard enough to uproot a large part of it to create a barrier between a group of miners and some subterranean lemurs turned into monsters by the sunlight.
He's punched a hole through the bio-android OMAC (the Kevin Kho version) who's taken on the Justice League International which included heroes such as Blue Beetle, Guy Gardner and when OMAC was fighting them, Firestorm too.
That'll do for striking power, there are still feats which definitely prove Superman is more than strong enough to tax the Viltrumites' durability. For all your belief in the Sub Atomic durability argument, they're very susceptible to blunt force trauma if their opponent can hit hard enough, loads of the fights end up with the characters bloody, bleeding and even mortally wounded. And Superman will be the strongest opponent Invincible and his father have ever faced in their fights.
Not only do I believe Superman surpasses the Viltrumites' strength but he almost certainly surpasses their durability, resistance to harm and rivals their damage soak. It'll be much harder for Mark and Nolan to harm Superman than it will vice versa. This section isn't going to be very long though because the only way the Viltrumites can harm Superman is through physical attacks. Therefore, I only need to show Superman's durability feats against physical attacks, which makes my write up of the durability section easier than Ghost's and much easier than yours.
Superman was one of the few beings capable of surviving attacks from Doomsday in his final evolved form when a weaker Doomsday was capable of stomping Wonder Woman leaving her with a broken arm and wounded afterwards. Here's how Wonder Woman fared against Doomsday in Superman/Wonder Woman #2
In contrast, this is how Superman held up to a beatdown from Doomsday in Superman Doomed #1 with panels of Lex Luthor and Dr Veritas stating Doomsday was in a weaker state before Superman had his final showdown with the monster and that only Superman had a chance of surviving a fight with Doomsday.
I'm sure you can say the difference. In Superman Unchained #2, Superman has brushed off a hit from an out of control construction machine in Dubai and got smacked halfway across the city into a building. He just got up undazed and unhurt by the attack.
He only got a bloody lip and forehead from being kicked in the face by Wonder Woman and headbutted by Lobo respectively.
And he's tanked a beatdown from Zod and Faora who were amped by Apollo providing a noticeable boost of solar radiation to the villains in Superman/Wonder Woman #6.
It's going to be harder for your Viltrumites to harm my Kryptonian throughout this fight.
I'm sure you'll bring in a mixture of some actual combat speed and operational reaction time feats but I've noticed a trend of combining travel speed feats, overrated satellite imaging showings and a holding back quote to justify the Viltrumite's speed. In my case, Superman's speed and blitzes in a battle will definitely have an effect on Invincible and Omni-Man in their fast paced battle.
Even in his Jeans and T-shirt weaker days, Superman could still casually react faster than a speeding bullet when under fire.
He caught a bullet fired at him by Eros right before it pierced his chest.
He analysed an alien gun and shielded a random guy with his cape from an explosion caused by Starfire in Superman #29.
And in advance of questions regarding whether the Viltrumites can be blitzed by Superman, or even dare I say it if Superman's blitzes would be effective at all, I think these few scans should begin to demonstrate why Superman's blitzes will be very effective on the Viltrumites and will hit them in battle.
For instance, Superman blitzes through a space station called The Lighthouse in Superman Unchained #1. It's a high tech space station made by the joint effort of the American, Russian and Japanese governments. This is even more impressive with Scott Snyder's script in Superman Unchained: Director's Cut #1 which states The Lighthouse is the size of a city block.
Then there's Superman blitzing Doomsday from Earth to Venus whilst enduring his hits and his 'death forcefield' which can destroy all matter and substances that Doomsday comes into contact with or close to.
Along with superior physicals, durability and speed to the Viltrumites, Superman also holds the advantage of long ranged powers in the form of heat vision and freeze breath. Thus giving him an extra edge when fighting the Viltrumites at close quarters or at a distance.
For heat vision, Superman has cut split train cars apart with his eyes, melted the underside of a battleship and incinerated Doomsday into a steaming corpse when nothing else had harmed him. At any range, his opponents should feel the heat from that attack.
As for freeze breath, Superman has frozen the Parasite after he'd been partially drained by Rudy's absorption powers, froze almost an entire building along with a bunch of intangible Ghost Soldiers in Action Comics #30 and froze a ship disguised as a city block after being weakened by red sun aliens in Superman #19.
Perfect for slowing down one of Superman's Viltrumite foes whilst he fights another or catching them long enough to deal a powerful attack against them.
Whilst your argument will inevitably boil to Invincible or Omni-Man a match for Superman and more than 1 Viltrumite being enough to tag team Superman, I'm afraid I don't believe the Viltrumites will be enough to overpower Superman. Even all 4 of your team pitted against Superman would have trouble taking him down IMO and so sending only half your team against our duo will still result in Superman and Hulk dividing and conquering their foes from how I view this battle. Superman has the feats and showings which make him stronger, more durable, harder to hit, longer to last, faster and more versatile than his opponents and all I've shown thus far is obviously a taster or teaser for what's to come, as you may have guessed. I've still got plenty of cards in my hand to play to demonstrate why Superman will emerge victorious against any attempts at tag teaming or outmuscling him from Team Skybound. Let's see what this debate brings to the table.
@sirfizzwhizz: @lvenger: Terrific introduction Lvenger, i really liked the light tone you gave your first post here, surely will leave a lot more to expect in your next argument and as it is, i definitely think Cadence will have his hands full mainly because Vultrimites are weaklings in-front of these 2 very established and undeniable stronger and deadlier powerhouses. Anyways, let's start this with a very short and sweet introduction to avoid any future misconception or ignorance towards the character i'll be using here, shall we?
By far one of the most famous characters in fiction and honestly he doesn't need that big of an introduction given i'm pretty certain everyone will have at the very least the basic knowledge about him and his powerset. Anyways, Hulk will fight Thragg and Battle Beast for reasons previously stated by Lvenger, which in addition i need to mention that both Thragg and Battle Beast aren't the smartest duo to say the least and the fact they will blatantly try to overpower someone who is leagues above them in every conceivable physical aspect sans raw speed would be certainly their downfall. Regardless, his powerset consists in the necessary to beat them both soundly:
For further information, here's Hulk's updated handbook entry from 2011:
As previously stated, i'm going to be using Indestructible Hulk incarnation which means is simply Savage Hulk with Hulk's permanent strength amp after the Core-Breach in Sakaar during Planet Hulk's run by Greg Pak in 2006, on top of that, he was biographically stated to be more powerful after that event during World War Hulk: Gamma Files in 2009 and was explicitly stated to be literally the strongest hero in Marvel Earth after this point in a more updated source, Marvel Fact Files #5 in 2014...
This means that even if you thought you could take out Hulk in his most common incarnation, you thought wrong and basically all his feats and highest ones done by his strongest incarnation canonically speaking can be achieved by Hulk under Savage incarnation since 2006 and has been consistently stated for 8 continuous years. This is enough for an introduction, contrary to Lvenger, i'll post feat scans and how the battle will take place after your introduction Cadence given i would like to know more about these Vultrimites just to see if my knowledge on them is actually accurate or not, so hold on tight and pray to the Bat-God for help, because you're going to need it.
Man this will be a hard, and I mean hard way to debate points. Instead of the traditional quoting what you all said, I will do my best to address the meat and potatoes. Lets face, it, i be writing a thousand word essay at the end of my posts lol.
so please try not to fault me too hard as ignoring posts and such, as I am legit looking at the sum up big picture than every little detail. Just putting that out there now.
First brief Intros on my characters.
Now onto the Debate.
Some good stuff there. Lets go ahead and compare notes. You made good use of logic on some things, and I will explain further details on other. Let me start off saying this is the real fight, and core of the WHOLE debate. That sounds like a big claim? Its not. The real argument is can Superman beat down Mark and Omni Man faster than battle Beast and Thragg deal with Hulk? Well I suppose voters will decide, and I will give them much to.... consider.
Oh yes, your character is by far stronger, but is it enough? Your starting off small as far strength feats go. Your not diving into the OMG WTF feats yes. Ha ha, I know they are coming. I could lay it all out, but what ammo would I have for later? This is the hardest part of this debate. Unlike most debates where characters are even in feats, my characters are inferior in strength by a major degree. However, this does not mean I feel you can one shot them, or they are unable to harm Superman at all. I want to bust out the high ends reasons, and I assure voters I have my reasons. Well, I suppose voters will just have to settle for this list of some basic feats for Omni Man and Invincible.
All this is early game Invincible, and not even late game feats. Now onto some Omni Man feats. I dont have much to show for now, as again I need to hold onto something for later posts, but here is a good starter.
By these feats alone he kinda matches the lower end ones you showed already. However, as I said before, these are just for show. Warm up stuff. I know the OMG WTF feats of your character, and Ghost's Hulk. I also have a whole another point of view why Mark and company can harm either Supes or Hulk even though their strength lifting feats seem lacking. I will touch on this as needed, as it is hard not to reveal all my cards to merely compete with you and Ghost for now. Its complicated, and killing me lol. Anyway, on to the next topic.
Ultimately why I went with New 52. He does not have stupid level of durability like Post Crisis. You showed very good feats, but in this fight, for all the strength New 52 Supes has, his durability is easier for Omni Man and Mark to attack here. The striking feats they have will show as much.
Now onto the big elephant in the room. You comment that Invincible and crew have weaker durability due to bleeding and tanking wounds a lot. This can be seen as true, or as false. One could argue the fact Invincible is a mature comic for adults with gore and blood. Superman however is a kids comic with more restraint. Or I could argue that the reason Viltrumites bleed a lot is because they tank powerful attacks. That is the road I am going on anyway. You showed some of feats, I will start off low end as well to grasp what I mean. First lets talk about what is real important to context for voters to understand. Smart Atoms.
So what the flying monkey dung is Smart Atoms?
Take note of these facts from the invincible Encyclopedia, I will reference them later as you well know for context. So to sum up, Viltrumites, and others in their universe, rely on the use of Atomic and Sub Atomic level manipulation of their own bodies for powers. They have Atomic level durability as you stated earlier. Yes. Are they immune to harm? No, it has limits. However the limits are pretty dang high when you really look at the feats in detail. Here is some lower end feats of what Smart Atoms can deal with in the case of Mark and the rest of the team here.
Another benefit of Smart Atoms is a minor healing factor. It allows Viltrumites to recover from death blows like so in weeks.
Now your thinking, that is pretty slow, not worth mentioning at all. Its not? I beg to differ.
Wounds like these would take out people like Wonder Woman, Flash, and yes, even Superman. However the minor healing factor on Viltrumites allow them to fight on through the worst of wounds, even sever head trauma, spinal trauma, or there guts ripped out of them. They fight on!
This minor healing factor from Smart Atom manipulation plays a large role in keeping the team fighting even in the worst of shape.simply put, you have to kill them to stop them, and Superman does not kill.
Speed is always a core of these debates, and i will now touch on this one for my Viltrumites. First allow me again point out some relative info on Viltrumite speed, and their reaction ability with said speed.
However these are just author claims, what about feats to support this? Well, I can show travel speed feats all day that put them Massively Faster Than light, or MFTL for short.
Yes they are fast indeed, but hey, thats just Travel Speed. Who cares about that? Not us! lets delve into some low end "meh' Combat Speed feats.
These are mere low end Combat Speeds. They really are. I am saving the high end ones for later. So what can I leave you to show good speed feats? Reaction speed goes nearly hand to hand with combat speed actually.
Yup, I think Reaction Speed time is down for both Omni Man and Invincible, as well the rest of my team here. Now how does this apply to Combat Speed? Well if they can preform tasks like the above at those speeds, then common sense, no BS logic would show they can fight at such speeds. Again all this is low end. This whole first post is low end to establish some facts. So with that said lets move onto the next topics you brought up.
Yes your character can do this, but is it really a superior advantage? Not at all. Heat Vision is pretty meh to what Invincible tanked. As well Omni Man. While the bios state sitting in a star would kill a Viltrumite, the fact is they can tank serious heat damage for a time.
Im not seeing heat Vision as some overwhelming useful tool.
As for Freeze breath, it has never been used on super fast foes like these two, nor will it do much to the Viltrumites who Smart Atom manipulation in the already posted bios for Durability feats explains they shrug off temperatures near absolute Zero.
That means they resist the coldest parts of deep space, which is instant freezing to just about anything. Close to Captain Cold levels of freezing. So I do not seeing that as a factor.
Lets talk about what my team brings against your Superman. Its simple really, numbers. may not seem like much, but it is a major factor considering the tactical ability of my team here, and their synergy.
Omni Man as said earlier has been trained, with over 1000s of years of combat experience against all manner of super beings. He is well versed in powers, and even once took over a entire alien world (the Flaxans who have serious tech) while depowered in a alternate dimension. He rose to be a leader until he got his powers back in that world. The guy is smart as hell. He leads the whole Viltrumite empire currently.
Mark is like wise very smart character.
Power Plex has the power to take Kinetic energy, and make it into powerful attacks. Every blow from Invincible empowered him, so to beat him Mark applied a very practical solution, hug it out. Allowing the foe to self drain trying to get out of the strength grip of Invincible.
All this shows my characters are far above the common brawlers like most brick comic characters. You may think this will be a simple brawling match for Supes to punch out of, but it is clearly not. both my characters have great synergy, fighting together many times, and they have very tactical battle strategies to win fights against superior or unique foes. This is my teams major advantage. Two of them, and they are great together. Superman will likely be very much off set, and distracted by one or the other. they more than match his speed, and maybe surpass it by feats. They are strong enough to harm him as I will show later. Durable enough to tank Supes blows for a time, and his Heat Vision. the question is can Supes beat them before Thragg, and Beast beat Hulk? Heck, at this rate I think a good case can be made of the duo winning honestly, so yes, I think they can hold Supes for the time needed.
As previously stated, i'm going to be using Indestructible Hulk incarnation which means is simply Savage Hulk with Hulk's permanent strength amp after the Core-Breach in Sakaar during Planet Hulk's run by Greg Pak in 2006, on top of that, he was biographically stated to be more powerful after that event during World War Hulk: Gamma Files in 2009 and was explicitly stated to be literally the strongest hero in Marvel Earth after this point in a more updated source, Marvel Fact Files #5 in 2014...
This means that even if you thought you could take out Hulk in his most common incarnation, you thought wrong and basically all his feats and highest ones done by his strongest incarnation canonically speaking can be achieved by Hulk under Savage incarnation since 2006 and has been consistently stated for 8 continuous years. This is enough for an introduction, contrary to Lvenger, i'll post feat scans and how the battle will take place after your introduction Cadence given i would like to know more about these Vultrimites just to see if my knowledge on them is actually accurate or not, so hold on tight and pray to the Bat-God for help, because you're going to need it.
Well, well, well that is interesting @ghostravage. He is just, uber powerful now. Im glad for the big guy. As a Hulk fan of the 80s and 90s, Im glad he is just.... super amp lol. Though it is interesting you feel the need to use the best form of Hulk besides World Breaker to match :) Im actually flattered bro you think that high of my characters. ;)
Ok, ok, enough of the trolling from me. Im not in the least feeling bad about this. In fact i still feel great about about it. Your facing the mother f**king A tea, here. I already gave intros above, so lets talk some basic breakdowns like I had Lvenger.
Yes Hulk is stronger, much like Superman. However, Im not scared. All that strength means little do to a few factors for my team. now as for my teams strength, they are even stronger than Omni Man and Invincible combined. Thats right, they are that much stringer by feats. So them handling Hulk will be fine. I will show feats later as we ramp this up in the next posts.
Again the duo fighting Hulk here are more durable then Mark and his father. they are by feats more than tough enough to tank Hulks blows. There is a reason for this as well. While your a Hulk expert, I am as well to a degree. Oh yes, I read a lot of Marvel Comics well before I fell in love with non Marvel comics. So why does this team of super durable beings are able to face, and take on your uber powerful Hulk?
3 Examples from Doc Samson, and Cho. In all three cases it states why Hulk never kills a foe, or causes the death of people. he is always running numbers in his subconscious to avoid over the top maiming and death. Even last scan states he flat out pulls his punches. This is why Thragg, and Beast will likely survive anything Hulk throws at them. they can not only by feats take it, their healing factor to chugg on until certain death will make it insane hard on this green giant.
As above both these characters are as fast, though Thragg is to be fair the fastest by feats out of all of them. When the next posts come around, I will touch more on this too for feats. However I will touch on now why Hulk is so out of his depth. He is facing beings who can fight at speeds too fast for Hulk to deal with period. he is not a speeder, and people like Wolverine and Spider Man dance around his blows. 90% of the time street levelers are able to dodge Hulk's attack. In fact many characters have at times claim Hulk is not that fast. I can bring up ton of feats of Tiger Shark, Namor, Spider Man, Wolverine, Captain America, and even Doc Samson of all people able to avoid hulks attacks and land more hits than tanking them. Best part here is my team is leagues faster than any of them. This is a huge disadvantage for Hulk. You might bring up the thunder Clap, but that wont matter in the space my team lands so many blows per second on Hulk, or out run the shock wave.
To start there is flight. Yes my Thragg has it. Hulk does not. Battle Beast cannot fly, but can somehow propel himself through space. Go figure.
Another major advantage, Battle Beast's weapons. He carries two sets of blades with him, and they are made of special metal of some kind as they are fully capable with standing Viltrumite blows, and cutting through Atomic level durability like a hot knife through Butter. This applies to Battle Beast's claws and teeth too. In short he can decapitate your green giant rather easy. That level of cutting works on Hulk just fine.
Another major factor for my super team that Hulk cannot counter is their skill level. My team is way more skilled than this version of the brute. Its like putting Luke Cage against Captain America, only give Cap near matching stats. Both of these characters are the best of the Skybound, and most experience fighters.
Then there is Thragg.
Final advantage is it is two on one. So lets recap now.
Yeah, Hulk is by far going down IMO alot faster than Invincible and Omni Man will Superman. Then its a 4 on one where Superman by feats gets manhandled.
Good Luck my friends.
Let me start off saying this is the real fight, and core of the WHOLE debate. That sounds like a big claim? Its not. The real argument is can Superman beat down Mark and Omni Man faster than battle Beast and Thragg deal with Hulk? Well I suppose voters will decide, and I will give them much to.... consider.
I see I sort of guessed your opening game plan to an extent. One pair delays one of our characters whilst the other is taken out by the other team. An admirable tactic, but one I don't believe will necessarily work against our characters. I don't believe Hulk will be overwhelmed by Thragg and Battle Beast, but it'll be up to Ghost to prove why Hulk won't be taken out by the Invincible villains. In the meantime, I shall continue debating why Invincible and Omni-Man will have a bit of trouble just delaying Superman, let alone beating him in a fight. Along with showing how Invincible and Omni-Man might not last as long as you need them to against Superman.
Here he help lift and carry a large cruise liner, which weigh well into the 100,000 tons. best part is this ship took on alot of water adding to the weight. He had help of another Viltrumite, one he later ends up fighting, and matching for the most part.
Hmm I'm guessing this is from the infamous Invincible rape scene which was a year or two ago if I'm getting this right, and at the end of that fight, Mark ended up on the losing end of the fight against that female Viltrumite. As for the cruise ship fight, I notice Mark visibly exhaused and admitting the female Viltrumite did most of the work since she's a fully developed adult and a pure Viltrumite. In contrast, Action Comics #25 has a younger and weaker Superman was able of moving a ship on his own against the pounding surf and crashing waves. Though it probably took all his strength, this is a younger and weaker version of Superman who performed this feat. Moreover, New 52 Aquaman has managed to lift a cruise ship by himself and he's inferior to Superman in the strength department.
Here in a official Marvel team up comic by Marvel shows Invincible during one of his BFRs by Angstrome, team up and fights Doc Ock. he easily rips apart the very durable proven tentacles with ease as seen. this was a canon story to Invincible as his next comic shows him cover in webbing, as he left off this comic. Its also part of the Invincible Omnibus.
Durable though they may be, it's not clear what iteration of Doc Ock's tentacles Invincible destroyed in this scan. Ock's had carbonadium tentacles back in Ends of The Earth a few years ago and decades ago, he was even sporting some adamantium tentacles for a while. It's doubtful the tentacles Invincible destroyed were made of the most durable metal Octavious has used for his tentacles.
Omni Man knocking invincible out of the atmosphere, and through two skyscrapers. A casual punch of holding back to not kill his son. He was trying so hard to get Mark to follow him.
A decent punch there, but Superman has accomplished a similar showing on Green Lantern whilst he attempted to shield himself and Batman inside a forcefield bubble construct for all the good that did them in Justice League #2.
By these feats alone he kinda matches the lower end ones you showed already. However, as I said before, these are just for show. Warm up stuff. I know the OMG WTF feats of your character,
I'll show off some more strength feats for readers to further demonstrate Superman's vast strength advantage over the Viltrumites, though what you call the "OMG WTF" feats might come in the third or fourth post depending on how we go.
Superman's overturned a giant war machine constructed by Lex Luthor single-handed in Action Comics #19.
Even after being weakened by aliens made up of red solar radiation, Superman was still strong enough to pick up a ship large enough to be disguised as part of Metropolis' city into space and lift it into space.
In Justice League #15, Superman and Wonder Woman catch an aircraft carrier and use it as a shield against massive tidal waves hitting Metropolis. According to Wikipedia, supercarriers tend to weigh over 64,000 metric tons on average. Although Wonder Woman did help here, it was mainly because she was on a date with Superman and to ensure the carrier didn't break in two.
Oh and Superman lifted a ship over his head far more easily than Invincible did.
You haven't given much of Invincible and Omni-Man's striking feats yet, though I can deduce it's in line with your not revealing all your cards ploy. Fair enough, I'll offer 2 or 3 more on Superman's part to keep things rolling on this factor.
Superman has put Shazam in his place after the magically powered upstart got too big for his boots during Justice League #22.
He's pounded the ground hard enough to break it up into massive chunks and interrupt the battle between the Justice League and the Justice League of America. Plus this was after he had a chunk of Kryptonite lodged in his brain so he was starting to get weaker.
And he's casually broken a massive chunk of ice which sent a large number of machines and weapons under the ground after Supes uprooted it in Superman Unchained #7.
And I still have yet to get into the good stuff which will prove just how much damage Superman can do to Invincible and Omni-Man if they're really going to be as much trouble for Superman as you claim they will.
Ultimately why I went with New 52. He does not have stupid level of durability like Post Crisis. You showed very good feats, but in this fight, for all the strength New 52 Supes has, his durability is easier for Omni Man and Mark to attack here.
Hence why I advised you on such a choice. Though despite current Superman's lesser durability feats compared to his Post Crisis levels, I disagree with your assertion that Omni-Man and Mark will be able to easily inflict damage upon Superman here. Thanks to the last 2 years of Superman appearances specifically, Superman will still be much more resistance to receiving damage and pain throughout this battle than how Mark and Nolan will take their lumps from The Man of Steel.
Now onto the big elephant in the room. You comment that Invincible and crew have weaker durability due to bleeding and tanking wounds a lot. This can be seen as true, or as false. One could argue the fact Invincible is a mature comic for adults with gore and blood. Superman however is a kids comic with more restraint.
This constitutes as much more of an excuse than it does a proper claim I'm afraid. The differences in censorship and audience do not directly affect how blood, violence and gore are presented in DC Comics. Hell, if I really wanted to argue this point, I could show scenes of bloodiness, violence and scenes generally not allowed to be shown to children present in just Superman comics in the last 15 years alone. They're not as gratuitous or excessive as what Invincible shows but it's nowhere as clear cut as Invincible being an adult comic whereas Superman is a kids comic.
Besides, even if this point were true, it doesn't change my claim that Superman can withstand a much greater degree of damage than what Viltrumites are able to stand up to.
Or I could argue that the reason Viltrumites bleed a lot is because they tank powerful attacks. That is the road I am going on anyway.
And my response to this point is that whilst the Viltrumites do tank powerful attacks, they do not tank attacks nearly as powerful as what Superman has emerged from either unscathed or relatively undamaged. And nor do I sustain will they be able to hold up well against the kind of attacks Superman is capable of unleashing if the Viltrumites won't go down easily.
So what the flying monkey dung is Smart Atoms?
Take note of these facts from the invincible Encyclopedia, I will reference them later as you well know for context. So to sum up, Viltrumites, and others in their universe, rely on the use of Atomic and Sub Atomic level manipulation of their own bodies for powers. They have Atomic level durability as you stated earlier. Yes. Are they immune to harm? No, it has limits. However the limits are pretty dang high when you really look at the feats in detail.
And this is where things will undoubtedly get controversial. Ghost will probably have his own take on the Smart atoms point on the Hulk side of his debate but I'll get some of my own criticisms of smart atoms out the way. The bios and explanation is all well and good but regardless of how they work, it's extremely doubtful whether they actually have atomic level durability. I don't see feats of atomic level resistance feats, and even if you could prove Viltrumites are more resistant to molecular attacks than Superman, it wouldn't help your case since atomic types of attacks are not your problem here. For all your bigging up of the Viltrumite's apparently esteemed atomic durability, they get hurt, bleed and lose vital organs very easily if the foe they're fighting is either strong enough, or is a fellow Viltrumite. It's fallacious reasoning to assert that this increases their limits more than what their feats indicate, especially when they're faced against two titans of incredible power like Superman and Hulk. The difference I propose in the durability discussion is that although Superman and Hulk can be hurt too, their limits and their thresholds are much higher than the Viltrumites have ever been. Thus, the concept of smart atoms durability is not as air tight as you think it is.
Omni Man knocking Invincible out of the atmosphere, and through two skyscrapers. I just showed this for a strength feat, but its a damn good one for the weakest version of invincible tanking this blow, and having a Sky Scraper fall on him like nothing.
Again, nothing a 5 year younger Superman who'd just joined the Justice League couldn't handle either when Captain Comet TKed him into a building in Action Comics #12.
This is a great feat of what Mark and company can tank comfortably. Able to tank the focus power of a city leveling beam with little problem, or any damage after the blast. Mark tank this attack a few times in succession with no lasting damage to him. after this steady attack of focused energy rather than AOE energy, that is key context here obviously, Mark takes her down quick. A more modern day Mark before the Viltrumite War.
I have my doubts about this feat considering that it's only a statement and this alien empress could be exaggerating the weapon's power. Your obvious response would be that she's only a one time character, she'd have no reason to lie and that it says the beam was focused, which I'm not sold on. Still, Superman's energy resistance also dwarfs any Viltrumites as well. He's withstood alien weapons which at full power could have cracked a continent, he's intercepted an energy blast which was inteded to destroy Metropolis and he didn't take any damage from Power Girl's heat vision which was cutting through mountains like butter. I can provide scans if needed to, but my point was that if you were going down the focused energy blast path, there isn't a showing Mark or Omni-Man has that Superman hasn't topped. The theme of my durability section if you will.
Another benefit of Smart Atoms is a minor healing factor. It allows Viltrumites to recover from death blows like so in weeks.
Now your thinking, that is pretty slow, not worth mentioning at all. Its not? I beg to differ.
Yes it is pretty slow, Conquest's head was clearly bashed in by Invincible and it took Conquest at least weeks, if not months to heal from such dire injuries. That's hardly a rapid example of healing, even if this character isn't present for this battle. Healing from that attack in weeks isn't much use in the heat of battle when Superman is capable of injuring and wearing down the Viltrumites with just a few of his blows.
Wounds like these would take out people like Wonder Woman, Flash, and yes, even Superman. However the minor healing factor on Viltrumites allow them to fight on through the worst of wounds, even sever head trauma, spinal trauma, or there guts ripped out of them. They fight on!
I see you stopped short of Hulk, don't want Ghost quibbling with you on one point too many. Whilst I don't need to argue whether Superman or the Viltrumites have the superior healing factor, I might as well do so before presenting further blunt force durability feats. Superman has been hurt and badly injured before, but Superman's healing factor is nothing to shrug off so easily just because the Viltrumites heal from more gory and bloody wounds.
For example, Action Comics #28-29 had Superman stabbed through the heart by Ghost Soldier's phased knife, yet he was able to get up minutes later and engage Ghost Soldier in combat again.
Next up, Superman got shot by black hole lasers in Superman Unchained #2 which wreaked havoc with his powers and did manage to hurt Superman enough to make him bleed and fall to the ground. Shortly after in the next issue though, Superman is back up and blitzing these tanks before they shoot at him again.
And my last example is taken from Superman/Wonder Woman #6-7 from the aftermath of Superman and Wonder Woman nearly being killed by a nuclear explosion (both had been beaten up harshly by an amped Zod and Faora due to Apollo's interference though, that's why Superman nearly died from the explosion for anyone who thinks Superman can't survive a nuke.) After some ghost soldiers almost captured Diana, all it took was a single beam of sunlight for Superman to begin his recovery and fire a blast of heat vision to scare off the soldiers.
Thus, I stand by this evidence making the healing factor contest a little closer than you had intended. Nonetheless, even if you do show otherwise, this does not hurt the validity of my main argument, that Superman will be able to withstand many of the Viltrumite's best blows much better than they can take his own.
Clark has tanked blows from Parasite who was feeding off his own power as well as the lifeforce of the nearby bystanders. That hit sent him clean through to the bottom of a parking lot but he shrugs it off.
He's withstood hits from Mongul in Batman/Superman #7 and New 52 Mongul has survived a fight with Doomsday, hit Wonder Woman so hard that Batman's eardrum almost exploded from the force of the blow and has defeated several yellow Lanterns at once, as well as defeat Sinestro himself.
He's been whacked with a cargo ship by Supergirl and taken it in his stride.
And he's tanked being punched through several large fragments of a destroyed planet by Ulysses in Superman #38, whose energy absorption based powers had just absorbed the planet's entire power supply.
This minor healing factor from Smart Atom manipulation plays a large role in keeping the team fighting even in the worst of shape.simply put, you have to kill them to stop them, and Superman does not kill.
Simply put, that's absolutely not true. Conquest was beaten without being killed, though the damage was extensive, he wasn't dead from it. The female Viltrumite overpowered Invincible to get what she wanted out of him, Omni-Man had Invincible at his mercy without dealing any lethal blows to him, the list goes on. I do not buy into your argument that the Viltrumites will remain conscious once Superman starts to unleash his more potent attacks. Just because they remain conscious from other Viltrumite's blows does not logically follow on that Superman won't be able to KO them, especially with his superior striking power and the times Viltrumites have been knocked out. In any case, my durability argument remains in place, whilst you say the Viltrumites will be able to hang in there, I assert that Superman will be able to take the Viltrumite's attacks and best blows much better than they can take his.
However these are just author claims, what about feats to support this? Well, I can show travel speed feats all day that put them Massively Faster Than light, or MFTL for short.
I'm not sure all your feats point to that conclusion but we'll see I guess.
1) A Viltrumite leaves a light trail behind him as he blitzes Allen, and reacts to his surrondings at this speed by quickly navigating Allen where he wants after targeting Allen at said speed.
I believe that's a gross misinterpretation of this feat, that hardly counts as a light trail in the slightest. It's the usual artistic effect of leaving behind a trail of a character in flight faster than the human eye can follow. By your logic, Superman has plenty of blitzes which leave light trails aplenty. You're looking too deeply into this scan when there's nothing very impressive here.
Omni Man is able to cross dozens of light years in less than two weeks to search, and find a suitable planet to breath among multiple stars away from earth.
Neat. Superman was able to fly back to Earth from the other side of the universe in 2 months. That's real MTFL travel if we were playing the travel speed game.
Mark and Omni Man travel from one planet in another Solar System to the capital planet in the same time a few hour battle took place. They not only arrive but blitz the other Viltrumites upon arrival, meaning they located their targets that are human size shape on a single city built planet at their high speeds.
Any proof they were travelling from one planet to another? It looks like the same planet based on the scans you've presented. Which would make locating the target much less impressive, despite the fact they're just no name Viltrumites.
Omni Man with a few punches, and throws keeps up casually with his son as they battle from Chicago, into the ocean, and then into the Artic in just a few panels. Great combat and reaction speed on Omni Man's part to keep track and catch up to attack again. Though this is low end.
Good thing what with the overblown evidence I know you're going to bring out later. Superman has fought across the planet in his battles too, though in these scans he's usually catching up to Mark after Mark has hit something.
Mark beating on Dinosaurus, and curves his bull rush to drag the foe where he wants, more reaction feats with his bull rush speeds.
I don't see what's so special about Mark curving his bull rush. Superman has done the same thing easily in his blitzes against lumbering monsters and people with few reaction feats to their name.
Yup, I think Reaction Speed time is down for both Omni Man and Invincible, as well the rest of my team here. Now how does this apply to Combat Speed? Well if they can preform tasks like the above at those speeds, then common sense, no BS logic would show they can fight at such speeds. Again all this is low end. This whole first post is low end to establish some facts. So with that said lets move onto the next topics you brought up.
A nice selection of reaction feats but your logic is a bit lacking following on from this. Several of these are mundane and everyday activities performed at much faster speeds than any human could hope to achieve. Your reasoning does not follow that they can be so easily ascribed to combat and reaction feats because they weren't performed under duress or the heat of battle. That leaves a hint of flawed logic which can be picked up upon if you know where to look for it. As for Superman, you're ruling out his reaction time quicker than you should do. He's reacted faster than Lightning Lad could shoot his lightning in Action Comics #6.
He's caught what I count to be at least 12-13 bullets fired at each other at point blank range.
And even after being weakened by Parasite, Superman was still fast enough to save Lois' boyfriend from an exploding petroleum tank in half an instant in Superman #27.
Yes your character can do this, but is it really a superior advantage? Not at all. Heat Vision is pretty meh to what Invincible tanked. As well Omni Man. While the bios state sitting in a star would kill a Viltrumite, the fact is they can tank serious heat damage for a time.
But considering Superman's heat vision clocks out at at least 5000 degrees, I can't see the Viltrumites not smarting from that attack.
Even so, Superman's heat vision still has its uses such as multi-blasting both Viltrumites should their combined attack get too annoying for Superman to put up with.
As for Freeze breath, it has never been used on super fast foes like these two, nor will it do much to the Viltrumites who Smart Atom manipulation in the already posted bios for Durability feats explains they shrug off temperatures near absolute Zero.
It can be used up close in close quarters combat though. But at a range, what Superman may lack in tagging fast opponents, they make up for AOE.
Here from Action Comics #29, Superman freezes a large area of a Venezuelan jungle just to freeze the intangible Ghost Soldier in place. If the Viltrumites were too fast for Superman to get a bead on, he can replicate this tactic on Omni-Man and Invincible to slow them down if he wants to. Given Superman can freeze particles with his freeze breath, that should bypass the vaunted Smart Atom durability.
Even Omni man withstand the heat beams of the Orginal Rob Liefield Supreme. A Supreme that murdered, did not hold back, and was the most powerful version of all the Supremes.You may, or may not know that this Supreme is feat for feat as strong as Post Crisis Superman. heck he was modeled after Pre Crisis Superman.
I'll address this once you inevitably bring up the Omni-Man vs Supreme fight later on as a good showing for Omni-Man. I'll do some research into Supreme but I know he was modelled after Pre Crisis Superman, not Post Crisis. What little I've seen of Supreme has been nearly as absurd as Silver Age Superman, so Omni Man fighting him is a very dubious feat for me.
Lets talk about what my team brings against your Superman. Its simple really, numbers. may not seem like much, but it is a major factor considering the tactical ability of my team here, and their synergy.
Although your synergy is better than Superman and Hulk's, it doesn't detract from how badly outclassed in raw strength and power that the father and son combo are against Superman I'm afraid.
Omni Man as said earlier has been trained, with over 1000s of years of combat experience against all manner of super beings.
Not the 1000s of years of experience argument, do you know how easy it is to debunk? Thor and Hercules have thousands of years combat experience too, yet compared to someone like Batman, who's only had decades to learn martial arts, they fight like angry children relying on brute force and physical might to win their fights. This logic doesn't work when unsupported by feats and showings.
This here shows how out of all the smart super beings, he ranked highest in his pursuit to be a world conquer, and lead his own division as the head honcho from his exploits.
Superman has read and learnt 5 years worth of medical knowledge in 10 minutes and processed data that would take a supercomputer years to accomplish. These are intelligence feats, not combat intelligence feats.
Here Omni Man explains how he alone came up with the idea to defeat a planet of Viltrumite killing beats.
Which from the looks of the scan involved prep time, resources and outside help. None of which Omni-Man has here. So not a combat applicable feat.
Omni Man is tasked by the Coalition of Planets, a alliance with genius space faring races, to beat the Viltrumite enemy that they failed to beat time and again. He shows his genius in battle planning and general smarts again. Figures out the deadliest toxin to Viltrumites, and figures a way to harvest it when it was thought impossible to harvest, on the drop of a dime. Forges alliances with people who hate him. Shows in the last panel that Omni Man alone had take down a species capable of fighting Viltrumites, claiming he did his job too well.
Same point as above, only to a much greater and more emphasised degree.
In this battle Mark fights a foe who can dump people in the Dark Dimension, but Mark was smart enough to know instantly that should he hang on, there was a good chance he would not be stuck there. He did this without ever meeting this guy, or knowing his powers. On the fly tactical smarts.
OK but in a fight with no BFR and fighting a foe with a completely different powerset, how does that help Mark against Superman who he knows nothing about?
Here again he shows that very logical sense of fighting. He never met this foe name Winters, and he could not overpower at the time, Invincible was alot weaker at this time before he gotten more powerful. So how does he win? He asked a very smart question, does he need to breath? Well it turns out Winters does.
Fair enough but neither does Superman and nor is BFR allowed in this fight for obvious reasons.
Power Plex has the power to take Kinetic energy, and make it into powerful attacks. Every blow from Invincible empowered him, so to beat him Mark applied a very practical solution, hug it out. Allowing the foe to self drain trying to get out of the strength grip of Invincible.
That's pretty clever but it wouldn't work when applied to the vastly stronger Superman who's broken out of Doomsday's grip before.
All this shows my characters are far above the common brawlers like most brick comic characters.
Not really based on the use of 2 feats involving prep time and access to resources, as well as strategies that would not work when applied to Superman.
both my characters have great synergy, fighting together many times, and they have very tactical battle strategies to win fights against superior or unique foes.
Whilst all that is true, Superman is vastly stronger, faster, more versatile and powerful than any foe they've ever faced before. They're coming into this fight with random knowledge and no awareness that Superman is a solar powered Kryptonian who's only weak to Kryptonite, magic and red solar radiation. They're essentially facing a much stronger and more powerful Viltrumite with heat vision and freeze breath plus superhuman senses and hearing. Combine this unawareness and lack of knowledge with Superman's overwhelming power and the Viltrumites are not going to adapt as easily as you think unless you show otherwise. In contrast, Superman will be analysing their genetic makeup and DNA at some point with his X-Ray and microscopic vision just like he's done to Wraith and Ukar The Beast Master.
Superman will examine these two Viltrumites and spot their smart atom makeup, same as he did with Ukar. That'll show him that he might need to hit a little harder than usual to put these foes down. I'll save Superman's combat tactic feats for the next post, he doesn't have the experience and resourcefulness his Pre New 52 counterpart has in spades. So whilst teamwork and combat tactics may be some of your few advantages, you have yet to show how Invincible and Omni-Man can apply their tactics against Superman, who has no weaknesses they know of and is far more durable than any foe they've ever faced.
My opponent has engaged in the debate generally how I predicted he would thus far. I have continued to demonstrate the myriad of advantages Superman holds over the Viltrumite pair he is up against. Supporting my case with a consistent and ever increasing in magnitude selection of feats, with plenty more impressive stuff yet to come. I have yet to see how the Viltrumites can overcome Superman's raw physical, versatility and overall power advantage in spite of their teamwork and synergy due to being outclassed in power.
They are strong enough to harm him as I will show later.
The feats I predict you'll bring in aren't for the most part enough to bypass Superman's best durability feats, nor expend his damage soak and resistance to extreme physical harm. The harm Viltrumites are far more easily susceptible to than Superman is.
Durable enough to tank Supes blows for a time
For a time until Superman decides to bring out his better blows. And no amount of smart atoms nor limited healing factor will stop the Viltrumites from getting KOed and taken out of the fight by Superman's best blows that they cannot possibly stand up to.
they more than match his speed, and maybe surpass it by feats.
Still debatable even with Superman's lesser number of combat and reaction speed feats in the current continuity. I have yet to bring up Superman's best combat and reaction feats. And in worst case scenario should you seriously prove the Viltrumites to be faster than a Kryptonian, they are not fast enough to avoid Superman's attacks for very long, a point I put to the voters for consideration.
Superman will likely be very much off set, and distracted by one or the other.
Maybe a few times but I sustain that most of the fight will entail Omni-Man and Invincible suffering on the back foot from Superman's raw power and overwhelming physical might that even combined they cannot withstand against. No tactics have been presented which are a threat to Superman, nor would they work against his near invulnerable body and incredible resistance to harm.
The question is can Supes beat them before Thragg, and Beast beat Hulk? Heck, at this rate I think a good case can be made of the duo winning honestly, so yes, I think they can hold Supes for the time needed.
I'm not here to debate the Hulk side of the argument, I got dragged into this by Ghost remember? You have to prove to Ghost that Battle Beast and Thragg will take Hulk out of the equation. As for my side, I've shown how much trouble Omni-Man and Invincible will be from Superman without getting to the really good feats, thus highlighting how your delaying strategy will tax Omni-Man and Invincible far more than it will Superman. I see Superman defeating his foes same as how Ghost will argue Hulk can handle his enemies as well.
@sirfizzwhizz: Can you prove that with a scan or issue citation I can find myself? I fail to see how distasteful my point is otherwise or how it's guilty of lowballing when Mark did lose a fight to the Viltrumite woman and did get taken advantage of. Unless you can prove it after my reply, I have my doubts about the problems with my argument.
Very not cool. Rape in general is distastful much less using it as a feat man. But ok, go that rout.
Ta daa. He states he did not try as hard as he could, and stated this happen when he was mentally messed up about Eve's breakup with him that the time it happen.
So I find it kinda... low of you, to try and use this as a feat to prove something. Regardless I never showed this statement, should you bring up a rape comment that deals with range of emotions more than stats as proof of anything? C'mon man.
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