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#52 Edited by NoBody134 (282 posts) - - Show Bio

Via powescaling, abc logic, statements ect ect, goku stomps

Via feats, Superman owns.

#56 Posted by homicidalmaniac (6645 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Sure(mind you I gotten in another CAV)

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#57 Edited by HyperViper97 (1342 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see this debate ever happening on open forums

#58 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see this debate ever happening on open forums

I find it funny that the first page is full of random comments from non-contestants.

#62 Edited by FlashGreaterSignEveryone (950 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@homicidalmaniac:

I'm still waiting, are you going to make a post or are you done? It shouldn't take nearly two weeks to come up with another post, regardless of apparently being in another CAV.

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#63 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I can take over his spot if you wants :P

#66 Edited by homicidalmaniac (6645 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I'm sorry I'm late for a while.My notifications were off for some reason.Also,once my I get to this thread,my computer move really slow and I'm unable to post scans(just currently right now).Alright then,you say that Goku speed is beyond light speed,but DBZ never stated that on panel that DBZ characters is moving at light speed.Then if Goku was beyond light speed,then Goku would able see to the whole planet being frozen in time(like Wally West)which DBZ didn't show at all.The Mr.Popo statement about being faster than lightning is hyperbole and before that Popo stated that Goku needed to be calm as the sky which is also hyperbole.And the Cell stating that he can destroy the solar system is also hyperbole,because when Majin Vegeta(who is above Cell)use all his power to kill Fat Buu and Earth or the Solar System wasn't destroy.Even if Goku can destroy a solar system,Superman tank supernovas attacks that are capable of destroying solar systems.DBZ stated many times that power levels are meaningless and Roshi when he blew up the moon was 130-ish or 400-ish(I don't remember).The averages power level for humans is 5 and Spider-man is 40 times stronger than a human so by DBZ power level logic then Spidey could destroy a moon.If Goku can hit with planet busting punches and then why was he(in base form)was unable to lift 40 tons after the Cell saga.And also about the Frieza having planet level durability.I give you a EX,Silver Surfer have planet level durability and then Silver Surfer was killed by Thanos and Thanos killed him with a few punches.Trunks was not using a special metal sword(like the Creation Blade)against Frieza and he was cut pretty easily.Why are you keep thinking that Wonder Woman is still faster than Superman.WW was asking Hermes(God of Speed)for more speed when she was fighting Brian Wash Superman and Superman took WW to the sun under two minutes and the other scans I show does disprove that Superman is faster than WW.Superman DOES have nanosecond reaction speed and I scan I showed was a reaction feat.I will show more scans of Superman speed tomorrow at 6:00(where I live in Texas).

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#67 Edited by Pope052 (2977 posts) - - Show Bio

@homicidalmaniac:

I'm sorry I'm late for a while.My notifications were off for some reason.Also,once my I get to this thread,my computer move really slow and I'm unable to post scans(just currently right now).

It's fine, at least now you've made a post, but just try not to take long on your next one.

Alright then,you say that Goku speed is beyond light speed,but DBZ never stated that on panel that DBZ characters is moving at light speed.Then if Goku was beyond light speed,then Goku would able see to the whole planet being frozen in time(like Wally West)which DBZ didn't show at all.

I figured this would come up eventually, the thing about DBZ is that they don't reflect on science as much as DC Comics do, hence reasons as to why time does not slow down as Goku is travelling FTL. However, when he's fighting FTL it could be said that time does slow down.

Take Roshi & Krillin's fight for example, they managed to have a full fight in less than a second. Although it didn't show time slowing down, it can be assumed that it was from their point of view which he just didn't get to see. (Say the word if you'd like scans).

I can't prove that time slows down, but I certainly can and already have proven Goku's massively FTL traverse & combat speed, regardless of whether time slowed down or not, he still went faster than light but it just doesn't show the science involved (DBZ is like that).

The Mr.Popo statement about being faster than lightning is hyperbole and before that Popo stated that Goku needed to be calm as the sky which is also hyperbole

How were either of these instances hyperbole? Please elaborate on this, if he was stated by Popo to be faster than lightning, then I don't see how it's hyperbole. I'd like to see you debunk it, and then i'll accept it as hyperbole, but if not these feats are liable.

And the Cell stating that he can destroy the solar system is also hyperbole,because when Majin Vegeta(who is above Cell)use all his power to kill Fat Buu and Earth or the Solar System wasn't destroy.

This is easily explainable, Cell having enough Ki/Chi to bust the solar system is not hyperbole. I see your point on Majin Vegeta not destroying the Solar System with his power, but that is because DBZ is very inconsistent.

But inconsistent or not, that in no way means that they cannot accomplish any of their previous impressive feats again, they just don't constantly appear the same. Since they have actually displayed/implied these potential feats, that's all that matters.

Even if Goku can destroy a solar system,Superman tank supernovas attacks that are capable of destroying solar systems.

I'd like to see information and/or proof of a Supernova being a Solar System buster, and when Superman got hit by the Supernova, did it even destroy the Solar System?

DBZ stated many times that power levels are meaningless and Roshi when he blew up the moon was 130-ish or 400-ish(I don't remember).The averages power level for humans is 5 and Spider-man is 40 times stronger than a human so by DBZ power level logic then Spidey could destroy a moon.

Never said that power levels meant anything, but I was simply showing how low Roshi's PL was yet he was able to bust the moon regardless.

If Goku can hit with planet busting punches and then why was he(in base form)was unable to lift 40 tons after the Cell saga

You're caught in with the idea that lifting strength increases or supports your striking power, well it doesn't in the slightest. It doesn't matter if Goku could have lifted over a million tonnes, it would not amplify his punching whatsoever.

I have friends who are far inferior to me in terms of lifting strength, yet some can hit harder than I ever could.

Here's an article explaining why:

Why Lifting Weights Won't Increase Punching Power

And also about the Frieza having planet level durability.I give you a EX,Silver Surfer have planet level durability and then Silver Surfer was killed by Thanos and Thanos killed him with a few punches

As far as i'm aware, Thanos himself possesses striking power above planetary level busting attacks, hence why he was able to do that to the Surfer.

Trunks was not using a special metal sword(like the Creation Blade)against Frieza and he was cut pretty easily.

That's because Trunks was stronger than Goku when he fought Frieza, and obviously had far more force than the planet buster Goku hit Frieza with. As I have previously proven, say the word for a reminder.

Why are you keep thinking that Wonder Woman is still faster than Superman.WW was asking Hermes(God of Speed)for more speed when she was fighting Brian Wash Superman and Superman took WW to the sun under two minutes and the other scans I show does disprove that Superman is faster than WW.

Wonder Woman is faster than Superman in combat speed,Supes trumps her in raw speed which is flying, sprinting, travelling, etc. Hence why he took her to the Sun that quick, Wonder Woman herself said that she's faster than Superman at fighting, and even Batman agreed (And you know Batman).

Superman DOES have nanosecond reaction speed and I scan I showed was a reaction feat

Very well, point conceeded. However, I thought this was unnecessary as Goku has proven to be far superior in combat speed than Superman, but Goku has piosecond reaction speed, and yes, I can prove it.

Picoseconds are less than Nanoseconds. Say the word for the proof, which i'd be delighted to present.

I will show more scans of Superman speed tomorrow at 6:00(where I live in Texas).

Very well.

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#68 Edited by homicidalmaniac (6645 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052:

First speed feats

Able to see Barry Allen and Wally Wally running at Light Speed
Superman is capable of seeing light moving
Wally sometime is amazed as fast how fast Superman can be
Superman deflect Kryptonite Man beams pretty easy and radiation is capable of moving at light speed
Wally was unable to tell that was Superman at first sight
Fast enough that Wonder Woman,Batman,and others were unable to see at the Superman was there
Superman can run at 2000 miles pre second
Barry Allen said that Superman could be faster than him if Superman wasn't holding back(To reminder you that Barry is faster than Light)
Impulse is a near light speed speedster and Superman catch from surprise.And left Impulse to help the Teen Titans and left Impulse clueless twice.

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#69 Posted by homicidalmaniac (6645 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@homicidalmaniac:

I figured this would come up eventually, the thing about DBZ is that they don't reflect on science as much as DC Comics do, hence reasons as to why time does not slow down as Goku is travelling FTL. However, when he's fighting FTL it could be said that time does slow down.

I can't prove that time slows down, but I certainly can and already have proven Goku's massively FTL traverse & combat speed, regardless of whether time slowed down or not, he still went faster than light but it just doesn't show the science involved (DBZ is like that).

So how you know that Goku is faster than light when DBZ never stated when something is as fast as light or tell the sciences of Goku fighting

Take Roshi & Krillin's fight for example, they managed to have a full fight in less than a second. Although it didn't show time slowing down, it can be assumed that it was from their point of view which he just didn't get to see. (Say the word if you'd like scans).

Pretty inconsistent since DB/DBZ fights last way longer than a second.

How were either of these instances hyperbole? Please elaborate on this, if he was stated by Popo to be faster than lightning, then I don't see how it's hyperbole. I'd like to see you debunk it, and then i'll accept it as hyperbole, but if not these feats are liable.

The Phase "faster than lightning or fast as lightning" have been use in media a lot of times.Like the song"Kung Fu Fighting" use phase "Those kick were fast as lightning",I recall Iron Fist been stated to move as lightning(I could be wrong about that,but Not sure),and others.I don't recall Kid Goku ever dodging any lightning.Tell me how would Kid Goku can be calm as the sky in Mr Popo training?

This is easily explainable, Cell having enough Ki/Chi to bust the solar system is not hyperbole. I see your point on Majin Vegeta not destroying the Solar System with his power, but that is because DBZ is very inconsistent.

It be more hyperbole since Frieza call himself the strongest being in the Universe or Buu calling himself omnipotent.

I'd like to see information and/or proof of a Supernova being a Solar System buster, and when Superman got hit by the Supernova, did it even destroy the Solar System?

Never said that power levels meant anything, but I was simply showing how low Roshi's PL was yet he was able to bust the moon regardless.

Yes,but DBZ fanboys on Youtube always say that power levels do matter in fights.But Roshi did it was a energy blast.

You're caught in with the idea that lifting strength increases or supports your striking power, well it doesn't in the slightest. It doesn't matter if Goku could have lifted over a million tonnes, it would not amplify his punching whatsoever.

I have friends who are far inferior to me in terms of lifting strength, yet some can hit harder than I ever could.

Here's an article explaining why:

Why Lifting Weights Won't Increase Punching Power

Hulk have unlimited strength and Hulk at a certain level have bust a planet in pieces.Juggernaut can be as strong as he want and he have show to punch reality.Thor also have planet level strength like Superman and he is able to destroy planets.Skarr had charge up to have a trillion ton punch and gave to a near WB Hulk(Yes,I know these are Marvel Characters).In our reality there isn't a being at can lift the earth weight and if there was then how would you think how strong would his full punches be.

As far as i'm aware, Thanos himself possesses striking power above planetary level busting attacks, hence why he was able to do that to the Surfer.

Thanos full strength haven't been stated or showed what I recall.

That's because Trunks was stronger than Goku when he fought Frieza, and obviously had far more force than the planet buster Goku hit Frieza with. As I have previously proven, say the word for a reminder.

Wonder Woman is faster than Superman in combat speed,Supes trumps her in raw speed which is flying, sprinting, travelling, etc. Hence why he took her to the Sun that quick, Wonder Woman herself said that she's faster than Superman at fighting, and even Batman agreed (And you know Batman).

WW was using Kryptonite given by Batman that fight.If WW was faster in combat speed then she would have dodge that back hand from Superman.Or Superman wouldn't have dodges that flying kick from WW.

Very well, point conceeded. However, I thought this was unnecessary as Goku has proven to be far superior in combat speed than Superman, but Goku has piosecond reaction speed, and yes, I can prove it.

Picoseconds are less than Nanoseconds. Say the word for the proof, which i'd be delighted to present.

Superman could had the potential to move in a Femto-Second which is faster than a Pico-Second.

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#70 Edited by Pope052 (2977 posts) - - Show Bio

@homicidalmaniac:

First, to debunk your scans:

Able to see Barry Allen and Wally Wally running at Light Speed

Superman is capable of seeing light moving

Neither of these aid him in a battle, he may be able to see light speed movement in terms of traverse speed but that says nothing on how he is supposed to react to massively FTL combat speed.

Wally sometime is amazed as fast how fast Superman can be

That scan seemed like a lucky tag to be honest, i'm not trying to degrade the feat but Wally was all over Superman before he managed to grab his arm, and it seemed like he caught it by chance.

Superman deflect Kryptonite Man beams pretty easy and radiation is capable of moving at light speed

Deflecting something is less impressive than dodging it, Colossus could deflect a bullet but he can't dodge it on the spot.

Goku dodges FTL Energy Beams casually in his fights, and dodged lasers as a kid which have broken the light speed record. Also i'd like for you to prove that radiation is capable of moving at light speed.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2000/jul/19/laser-smashes-light-speed-record

Wally was unable to tell that was Superman at first sight

He was still visible to him, just blurred.

In other words, Kid Goku's totally invisible movement is far more impressive than Superman's blurred movement.

Fast enough that Wonder Woman,Batman,and others were unable to see at the Superman was there

Goku has trumped the scale of invisible movement as a Kid, this is nothing to him. And for the record, Batman not being able to see him isn't impressive in the slightest as Batman cannot contend with Superman and/or Goku in anything.

Superman can run at 2000 miles pre second

Goku travels FTL, Light Speed travels at a pace of roughly 186,282 MPS.

Since Goku is at least half of light speed as a Kid, which would be 93,141 MPS. Going by that 2,000 MPS is nothing to Goku. Also, not to mention this is yet again another traverse speed feat, which doesn't aid Superman in a fight.

Barry Allen said that Superman could be faster than him if Superman wasn't holding back(To reminder you that Barry is faster than Light)

This is speculation and/or hyperbole, considering that every time I post an implication of Goku you say that it's hyperbole. Going by the actual character's abilities, Flash should never be beaten in any form of speed by Superman.

If Superman had beaten him in a race without some form of augmentation, then it's PIS.

Impulse is a near light speed speedster and Superman catch from surprise.And left Impulse to help the Teen Titans and left Impulse clueless twice.

"Near light speedster", Even if Goku was only slightly faster than light , it's still far faster than Impulse.

Now to reply to your next post:

So how you know that Goku is faster than light when DBZ never stated when something is as fast as light or tell the sciences of Goku fighting

Doesn't matter if something is stated or not, if they have proven themselves faster than light then they are (I have proven this). Science doesn't factor into fictional battles my friend.

Pretty inconsistent since DB/DBZ fights last way longer than a second.

For the viewers sake, what good would it be if we couldn't watch the fights? No good, exactly. The fights are visible for our sake, but in reality the fights should be invisible, but as I said DBZ is inconsistent.

But Roshi and Krillin's fight was indeed less than a second:

Scans:

The Phase "faster than lightning or fast as lightning" have been use in media a lot of times.Like the song"Kung Fu Fighting" use phase "Those kick were fast as lightning",I recall Iron Fist been stated to move as lightning(I could be wrong about that,but Not sure),and others.I don't recall Kid Goku ever dodging any lightning.Tell me how would Kid Goku can be calm as the sky in Mr Popo training?

It doesn't matter if the phrase is overused, he still was faster than lightning. It wouldn't make sense for him to be able to move and fight invisibly if he wasn't, as lightning is visible to the naked eye for a split second, Goku wasn't.

It be more hyperbole since Frieza call himself the strongest being in the Universe or Buu calling himself omnipotent.

Frieza said he was because he did not know of anything stronger than himself, even SSJ Goku wasn't that stronger than him.

As for Buu, I don't recall him declaring himself omnipotent, please bring up that scan. Even if he did, Buu had the mind of a 4 year old child. So it

would

make sense for him to talk illogically.

Yes,but DBZ fanboys on Youtube always say that power levels do matter in fights.But Roshi did it was a energy blast.

Power Levels matter to a certain extent, otherwise Goku wouldn't have had any trouble with stronger opponents.

Hulk have unlimited strength and Hulk at a certain level have bust a planet in pieces.Juggernaut can be as strong as he want and he have show to punch reality.Thor also have planet level strength like Superman and he is able to destroy planets.Skarr had charge up to have a trillion ton punch and gave to a near WB Hulk(Yes,I know these are Marvel Characters).In our reality there isn't a being at can lift the earth weight and if there was then how would you think how strong would his full punches be.

That's because those characters posses both physical and striking strength. It still does not change the fact that physical strength does not matter in a fight.

WW was using Kryptonite given by Batman that fight.If WW was faster in combat speed then she would have dodge that back hand from Superman.Or Superman wouldn't have dodges that flying kick from WW.

Not really, the fight was plot driven. In an actual battle, Superman should probably still win but he certainly is not faster than Wonder Woman in combat terms.

Superman could had the potential to move in a Femto-Second which is faster than a Pico-Second.

He had the potential to move in a femto-second, not react.

Now to present my scans:

Even if, just if Goku's raw combat speed & versatility wasn't enough to contend with Superman in battle. His various techniques are what will put him above Superman in the fight.

To start off with the..

After-Image:

If you aren't already aware, the After-Image is a technique that involves Goku moving so quickly that he leaves behind images of himself. This technique would drive Superman up the wall, considering that he could not land a good hit on Goku in the first place, this extends to that by miles.

And to prove that he this technique works on stronger opponents:

Next onto..

Meteor Combination:

Goku's chain of attacks, considering that Goku does have the striking strength to harm Superman then I don't see why this wouldn't affect him:

Next onto the..

Solar-Flare:

This is not necessarily an attack, but rather a distraction that would aid Goku if he was being somehow overwhelmed by Superman:

The Solar Flare releases a large aura of massively bright light from the user, blinding the opponent for a period of time:

And Superman is not dodging this head on, the attack itself is instant, and to prove this:

And finally with..

Instant Transmission:

This allows Goku to move instantly (you don't say).

No matter how fast Superman can get, he will never be moving at instant speed. Goku will always be faster (and he already is). Hell, this technique would grant him a win against even the Flash in a race.

Not only can he use this to be faster than Superman in traverse terms.he can utilize this well in a fight, he has entire fights dedicated to the technique:

2nd Video, (I know this is GT but it's nothing too out of context here):

Also, he can charge up a Kamehameha from a distance, IT behind Superman, and then hit Superman head on:

Now, if you say that none of these techniques would harm Superman, then what if Goku chained them in this fashion..?

First off, uses After-Images to confuse Superman,

Next, hits him with Meteor Combination while he's trying to hit an image of Goku,

If Superman regains what just happened, goes for a punch, Goku catches/dodges the punch, blinds him with the Solar Flare,

Instant Transmissions behind him, blasts him with a Kamehameha.

Now, if you say that Superman won't be affected by this, then i've got news for you..

I'm going to roughly add up Goku's multipliers, to see the force of the Kamehameha that Superman is dealing with here: (Not to mention, these are very low end calculations):

Oozaruu Multiplier - X10.

Gravity Multiplier - X10.

SSJ Multipliers:

SSJ - X50 Base.

SSJ2 - X2 SSJ.

SSJ3 - X4 SSJ2.

Kaioken Multiplier - X20.

Total Multiplication -

800,000 X Base (8 Hundred Thousand times Base Form) (50 x 2 x 4 x 10 x 10 x 20)

Don't believe me? Do the math.

And if Super Saiyan 4 was permitted, that increases the total multiplication to 8,000,000 (8 Million times Base Form). But since SSJ4 is out of the question, that doesn't factor into this. I just pointed it out to show how strong he can get.

Now,

EOZ Goku was the equivalent to SSJ3 Goku when battling Kid Buu (Hence why he was evenly matched with Uub).

Goku at SSJ3 is far stronger than SP Cell, who had the Ki Potential to bust the Solar System.

Goku has more raw power than needed to bust a Solar System, and way more power than a Supernova.

As for low end calculations of his destructive output, End of Z Goku would be able bust the Earth with a single Ki Blast. As he was even with Uub, who previously was Kid Buu, and we all know that Kid Buu had effortlessly destroyed planets with one blast.

But destroying planets is absolutely nothing, even King Vegeta wiped out 3 planets with a wave of his hand!

Calculations:

Low End Calculations -

Goku's Kamehameha could wipe out over 800,000 planets (at bare minimum). Superman does not have the power output comparable to Goku's, and cannot bust a planet unless you show me something suggesting he can.

High End Calculations -

Seeming how busting the Solar System could be potentially busted by Cell, there's no reason for Goku not being able to do so.

Statistically speaking, Goku has more than enough power to destroy over 100 Solar Systems. Superman tanking this is highly illogical, he could just about tank a Super-Nova (that yet i'm still waiting for proof of this destroying a Solar System).

Even if I didn't include the Gravity & Oozaru multipliers, Goku would still be 8,000 times stronger than his Base in SSJ3 w/ Kaioken x20. Still having the potential to bust 8,000 planets, and easily much stronger force than a supernova or Solar System buster.

Hell, even if you take out the Kaioken too, he still has the capability to exert the damage to Superman that would equivalent of 400 planets exploding hitting Superman head on , and if it didn't kill him, it would definitely injure him enough for Goku to finish him off with ease. And that's just the low-end calculations.

Finally, i'm going to compare Goku and Superman's advantages (from what you've shown me):

Superman:

Physical Strength (Meaningless)

Durability

Traverse Speed (Not a deciding factor)

General Intelligence

Goku:

Striking Power

Combat Speed

Reaction/Reflex/Dodging Speed

Skill

Power Output

Versatility (Move-Set)

Fighting Genius

@homicidalmaniac

I'm nearly out of feats for Goku, i've summed up just about everything. There might be a couple of more points I could bring to the table, but there's nothing too effective left.

Post whatever you need to, i'll respond to it but when you feel you're done then let me know when you want to open voting. Either in a P.M or this, I don't mind.

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#71 Posted by Pope052 (2977 posts) - - Show Bio
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#72 Edited by homicidalmaniac (6645 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052:

Superman perception speed is not travel speed and Superman perception time is good enough that he can see in a Zeptosecond.And running speed can be consider to part of combat speed."traveling speed" or "traversing speed" by Vine's definition is:The speed a character can achieve without controls (or necessary perception to match it).The calculations doesn't mean much,because they aren't confirm to be true by the DB Universe creators.And calculations doesn't mean there always true about the character.The Solar Flare would help boost Superman power and make Superman some-what Sun-Drip.Goku IT means that Goku need to think where he need to teleport.I recall Superman,Flash(Wally West),Wonder Woman,and Martian Manhunter shown to move faster than the speed of thought in the same room(I don't have the scan). Aren't those anime/anime movies feats aren't cannon to the manga and pretty much are filler.The After-Image wouldn't help much,because Superman eye vision is much greater.Wally is faster than Superman,but Barry isn't faster than Wally.Barry and Clark could be almost the same speed.Street Levelers are able to dodge lasers and does that mean that their on par with Superman.Superman always shown to fight faster when he fight WW and that WW and Batman saying that WW is faster is false.I don't want to talk about the other parts you made cause this post too long.

If you are almost done then this debate will come to a end soon.

I have left over feats

running at the speed of light
Superman having fighting over 1000 years in Valhalla

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#73 Posted by NighThunder (2808 posts) - - Show Bio

this is actually pretty good , good job you both , Tell me voting.

#74 Posted by Cardle_grave (458 posts) - - Show Bio

Veget in BOG was dodging hundreds of laser under gravity effortlessly, So there is no reason why not to believe there no MFTL in terms of Combat Reaction speed

#75 Posted by NighThunder (2808 posts) - - Show Bio
#76 Edited by Pope052 (2977 posts) - - Show Bio

@homicidalmaniac:

Superman perception speed is not travel speed and Superman perception time is good enough that he can see in a Zeptosecond

I never said it was, and you haven't proven that Superman could properly react at even nanosecond speeds, so stop using Flash's reaction speed timing of zeptoseconds.

Superman does not and should not have zeptosecond reaction speed. If he ever did show some cases of it, it was either because he had time to accelerate his senses, or it was pure PIS.

And running speed can be consider to part of combat speed."traveling speed" or "traversing speed" by Vine's definition is:The speed a character can achieve without controls (or necessary perception to match it).

No it cannot be considered a "part" of combat speed, running is a traverse term not a combat term.

And going by Vine's definition, it means that they can achieve a certain speed, but they do not have the perception to match it. (Superman), He can reach light speed, but only in terms of acceleration and only in traverse terms.

The calculations doesn't mean much,because they aren't confirm to be true by the DB Universe creators.And calculations doesn't mean there always true about the character.

Yes, they do mean "much". It doesn't matter whether or not they are confirmed or not. Calculations are more enough to prove that they are, stop ignoring them.

Goku as a Kid, could do all of this:

  • Catching a Dragon-Ball.
  • Dodges Lasers.
  • Stated to be Faster than Lightning.
  • Countering a Solar Flare.

These feats alone could already be argued for Goku to be FTL, stop denying it.

The Solar Flare would help boost Superman power and make Superman some-what Sun-Drip.

No it wouldn't, the Solar Flare isn't an attack, it's a distraction. It is bright enough to blind the opponent instantly, not to aid the opponent. Even if Superman could gain some form of boost from it, Goku would notice this and stop using the technique (He is more of a combat genius than Superman).

Goku IT means that Goku need to think where he need to teleport. I recall Superman,Flash(Wally West),Wonder Woman,and Martian Manhunter shown to move faster than the speed of thought in the same room(I don't have the scan).

I don't seem to understand why people think Goku needs to concentrate to use Instant Transmission. Did you even look at the videos I had shown you? He didn't need to concentrate at all and utilized it effortlessly in battle. Instant is faster than anything, including thought movement.

Here they are, again:

Aren't those anime/anime movies feats aren't cannon to the manga and pretty much are filler.

The videos I provided aren't filler. And anyway, we agreed that I was permitted to use Anime and Manga feats.

The After-Image wouldn't help much,because Superman eye vision is much greater.

It would help, a lot. It's not a case of eye vision either, it's Goku moving so fast that he creates after-images that Superman would try to attack. Besides, Superman's eye vision wouldn't matter as Goku was too fast for many people with great eye vision to see. (Kami couldn't see Goku's fight with Piccolo, and Kami has godly eyes).

Wally is faster than Superman,but Barry isn't faster than Wally.Barry and Clark could be almost the same speed.

PIS, Superman shouldn't be faster than the Flash, ever. This is going by the Flash's abilities compared to Superman's.

Superman always shown to fight faster when he fight WW and that WW and Batman saying that WW is faster is false.

No it isn't false, stop denying it. You act as if Superman can do everything. He is faster than WW in traverse terms, not combat terms. But I guess if you really want me to show you this, than by all means:

First off, Superman was about to throw Diana into the Sun. Wonder Woman's reflexes were still faster as she managed to shove the Kryptonite into Superman's face.

Secondly, even after being in the heat of battle. Wonder Woman was still faster than Superman:

I don't want to talk about the other parts you made cause this post too long.

Fine, fair enough.

Now, onto your scans:

running at the speed of light

Again, and for the final time. Running proves that he is faster than Goku in traverse speed terms, but this says nothing about his combat speed.

Superman having fighting over 1000 years in Valhalla

What are you trying to prove by this? Skill, or how long Superman can last in a fight?

@homicidalmaniac

I'm done I suppose. I may have a little feats left over, but they're nothing crucial to my argument for Goku. I suppose we could open the voting now, but I won't do it until I hear it officially from you.

@nighthunder

No worries, i'll mention you along with other users when the voting is permitted. Which should be soon enough.

@cardle_grave

Please, stay out of it.

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#77 Edited by homicidalmaniac (6645 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052:

I already show you that Superman can react to a nano-second.Again,Supes can raise his senses enough that time look frozen.I show you another nano-second scan

Superman can measure the time between nano-seconds.And also to tell you that Faust use Red Sun energy and you should know what a Red Sun would do to Superman.

Calculations would help a character is capable of,but many calculations of manga characters aren't taken seriously and still are fan-made.You say that Kid Goku dodging the Solar Flare is FTL.Yet other DBZ characters(past Dragon Ball)are not able to dodge the Solar Flare.Monkey D Luffy dodge a Instant moving attack and Luffy is Hypersonic at best.

Some Viners(I won't say who they are)on this site try to argue that running speed can be part of combat speed.

Wally is of course is faster than Superman(which your thinking of),Wally said that he ran pass Jay and Superman a million times on panel.Barry and Jay which I recall have haven't beaten Superman in a race.Barry and Superman would be consider near equals.

The Solar Flare should just be a small bang of solar energy.Which Superman is powered by Solar energy.

I thought we agree that we use cannon material of DB to DBZ and use no feats of the DBZ Movies/and DBGT.

Superman was mind control and he wasn't focusing in that fight.WW was using Kryptonite in that fight and you said I ignore the Cals and yet you try ignore to other scans of Superman against WW.If your saying that WW is slow.WW isn't slow,she tag Zoom(To be fair,Zoom have CIS)and speed blitz Amazo who copy the JL headline powers.

The 1000 years feats that Superman does have warrior experiences and wouldn't be a just a brawler(which BTW,Superman know Kryptonian martial arts).

And One more feat

A weaken Red Sun Radiation Superman tank a attack that was 50 times more powerful than a Supernova

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#78 Edited by homicidalmaniac (6645 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 So can we start the voting now?

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#79 Posted by Pope052 (2977 posts) - - Show Bio

@homicidalmaniac:

I already show you that Superman can react to a nano-second.Again,Supes can raise his senses enough that time look frozen.I show you another nano-second scan

Fair enough, but don't go no limits on me saying that he can react in zeptoseconds. That is highly absurd and if he ever did react in that time, it's PIS. He should never be able to reach that fast a reaction speed, unless given augmentations.

Calculations would help a character is capable of,but many calculations of manga characters aren't taken seriously and still are fan-made.You say that Kid Goku dodging the Solar Flare is FTL.Yet other DBZ characters(past Dragon Ball)are not able to dodge the Solar Flare.Monkey D Luffy dodge a Instant moving attack and Luffy is Hypersonic at best.

My calculations are fan-made yes, but they aren't wrong. In fact they're highly low-end calculations of Goku. I don't see the inaccuracy in them according to you.

As I said, DBZ is highly inconsistent. Hence why other later characters aren't able to react to a Solar Flare. Krillin affecting Frieza with it is acceptable as Frieza was underestimating Krillin, and was not aware of the technique at the time.

Some Viners(I won't say who they are)on this site try to argue that running speed can be part of combat speed.

It isn't, as running by definition is a traverse term. Some Viners argue that Broly > Omega Shenron, or that SSJ4 Gogeta is a universe buster. Don't trust some Viners on certain arguments.

Wally is of course is faster than Superman(which your thinking of),Wally said that he ran pass Jay and Superman a million times on panel.Barry and Jay which I recall have haven't beaten Superman in a race.Barry and Superman would be consider near equals.

Traverse speed is fine with Superman and Barry. But if Superman can suddenly fight at Barry's speeds, it's either because he had time to speed up his senses, or it was purely PIS. Because according to Flash's abilities compared to Superman's, Superman shouldn't even come close to being as fast.

The Solar Flare should just be a small bang of solar energy.Which Superman is powered by Solar energy.

As far as I know, the Solar Flare's energy type hadn't been specified. There's no need to assume that it's Solar Energy, as it could be something entirely different.

Regardless, even if it powers Superman slightly it should still blind him temporarily on the spot, and if it powered him up Goku would stop using it.

Superman was mind control and he wasn't focusing in that fight.WW was using Kryptonite in that fight and you said I ignore the Cals and yet you try ignore to other scans of Superman against WW.If your saying that WW is slow.WW isn't slow,she tag Zoom(To be fair,Zoom have CIS)and speed blitz Amazo who copy the JL headline powers.

Yes she used Kryptonite, but she was faster utilizing the Kryptonite than Superman was attacking her. And I never said WW was slow either, I was arguing with you that she is much faster than Superman in combat terms. She isn't slow in traverse speed, just not as fast as she is in combat speed.

The 1000 years feats that Superman does have warrior experiences and wouldn't be a just a brawler(which BTW,Superman know Kryptonian martial arts).

Thor has 1000's of years worth of battle experience, yet Thor would still get crushed by the likes of Bane if he was de-powered to Bane's peak human attributes. Skill isn't a decisive factor in a battle, and for the record Goku has proven himself a superior martial artist than Superman.

Goku doesn't go for regular punches or anything Superman style of offense, and Goku's fighting style is unique.

A weaken Red Sun Radiation Superman tank a attack that was 50 times more powerful than a Supernova

Goku has the power output of over 100 Solar Systems. I have calculated this but say the word if you'd like me to repeat them. But anyway, a Supernova could just about bust a Solar System .

If I were to use high-end calculations:

Goku's Kamehameha at Base should minimally destroy a Solar System. Multiply Goku's Base by 800,000, (Gravity X Oozaru X Kaioken X20 X SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3). Goku's Kamehameha at Full Power while SSJ3 should have the power required to destroy 800,000 Solar Systems.

If I were to use low-end calculations:

Minimally the force 800,000 planets all exploding at once.

Goku has far more power output than 50 Supernova's. Besides, Superman's durability in space is higher than it is on Earth, so Goku would have an easier time killing him on Earth than in space. Goku could still do it in space, but with more effort.

@homicidalmaniac

We're both done then, great. I'll open the voting and call out users.

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#83 Posted by Cardle_grave (458 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Well i looked Over the debate, Goku wins so you win.

#84 Edited by Pope052 (2977 posts) - - Show Bio

@cardle_grave:

Okay, vote appreciated and thanks for deleting your previous post.

Score 1-0

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#85 Posted by Shawnbaby (10403 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, I think this whole idea of trying to CaV Superman and Goku was doomed from the start. Too many people look at this as a way to get around the No DBZ/Comics rule.

Sadly, It's probably all for naught anyway, since the majority of voters probably won't vote for the better debate...but for the character they believe wins.

Personally, I don't care who would win in a fight and am just sick of the constant bickering from the fanboys in both camps.

#86 Posted by Pipxeroth (500 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 My vote is towards you. Congratulations to both however.

- Pip

#87 Posted by Your_Friendly_Azn (310 posts) - - Show Bio

Also voting for @pope052. You had a lot more to say, and you countered all of the other users arguments. Good job to the both of you though! :D

#88 Edited by Pope052 (2977 posts) - - Show Bio
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#89 Posted by brainstorm01 (1156 posts) - - Show Bio

goku wins(zekai,it,byond ftl,dd,kaioken,blind tech.,superior fighter,worn as fighter,his will to surpass apponent etc etc.)

#90 Posted by GhostRider2 (3268 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Well if we are not talking sundip or SA Supes, Goku should always win.My vote goes to you

#91 Posted by Pope052 (2977 posts) - - Show Bio

@brainstorm01:

Once again, it's not on who you think would win, it's a vote on who debated better in your opinion. Please specify your vote.

@ghostrider2

Thanks for voting, I appreciate it.

Score: 4-0

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#92 Posted by SheenLantern (6198 posts) - - Show Bio
#93 Posted by Lvenger (18247 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate was really doomed from the start. I picked out numerous problems with it from both of their arguments. @pope052 amped Goku's stats to ridiculously false levels via his flawed fan made calculations and misused tactics that Goku could use on Superman (afterimages would be cancelled out by Superman's x ray vision and super hearing for the record. Not to mention he can spot Wally and Barry moving at FTL speeds so he could see where Goku was) And then there was his reliance on simple statements for Goku's superiority in combat speed based on Wonder Woman and Batman's statements on it when featwise, there's no definitive proof that Diana is definitely faster than Superman in combat. And of course, the reliance on the hyperbole destructive feat of Cell's solar Kamehameha is a common mistake in debates since it fits with DBZ's inconsistent history of power scaling along with mixing in non canon DBZ movies which Toriyama has confirmed take place in an alternate universe. So they are not canon to the anime series and don't fit into the timeline either when you think about when they're set.

Of course, @homicidalmaniac did a lot of things wrong too. Confusing travel speed for combat speed feats, using lifting feats as an indication of Superman's striking power, a similar misunderstanding of DBZ power scaling that pope had. His arguments were much weaker too and didn't fully deal with pope's case and his logic didn't stack up properly to fit what he was saying. I could go on but I doubt these two want me to list every little thing wrong with this debate.

So although this debate was flawed, Pope052 at least attempted to debate better than his opponent. And it's for that reason I vote for him despite massively disagreeing with his arguments and conclusion.

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#94 Posted by Pope052 (2977 posts) - - Show Bio
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#95 Posted by brainstorm01 (1156 posts) - - Show Bio
#96 Posted by Pope052 (2977 posts) - - Show Bio
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#97 Posted by flame_saber (47 posts) - - Show Bio

pope052 gets my vote

#98 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to @pope052. However, I do have some criticism.

1) We have no proof that Namek was as big as Earth and we have no proof that the Japanese Tankōbon said the same thing.

2) Goku cannot destroy that many planets. At all. I'd believe like 40 something, sure. But those calculations were highly false.

3) Superman's combat speed if we take into consideration, what Batman said is way above Goku's. But again, Instant Transmission.

I'm sure there's more but I feel like these were the highlights. Great job to the both of you!

#99 Posted by SuperDrummer (721 posts) - - Show Bio
#100 Edited by Bossmonster (2163 posts) - - Show Bio

@homicidalmaniac: @pope052:

There is a lot wrong with this debate. Even down to the voting. I don't see why it's 6-0 currently, when most of the people that voted didn't vote based on who debated batter. It soul be 3-0. Even though only one person give reason why they considered the other a better debater. So there is your first issue. (Going backwards anyway.)

So Lets start with Goku.(Pope052)

Like stated before, you did take the time to address much of what was said, if not all. Considerbale scans for backing up your calms. Grammar. Regardless of what, that is so damn important in a text debate.

Issues with you logic: Much of your debate lacks backing. I.E. Calculations. In your opening, you had many scan to back of certain claims. Yet, pass that, you were just multiplying how much the character should be able to do with out actually showing it happening or only half good feat comparison. An example: Mech-freeza being caught of guard and Goku having full knowledge of an incoming attack from a person that flat out tells him "I'm not holding back" is different. A common example of this would be how a person reacts to a punch they can see and a punch they do not see coming. We know that Goku Prepped his finger with energy. Who is to say his finger wouldn't have been cut right off without. That is the type of debating you did.

On So Superman (homicidalmaniac) Good feats. I think that it's actually a good thing that you took the time to search out the best scans for the moment. I think this to a degree shows that you gave a great deal of thought to what you're next move was. Sadly, I think you should have been faster in your responses. It makes things drag out and actually shows that you are not really interested in this debate. (Even though I understand you have a life outside of this)

Issues with your logic: I tried to go back and find it but somewhere you said that Lighting was 60% of light speed(Something to that effect) That was massively inaccurate and hurt your credibility for me. You cannot do that and then your opponent instantly rebutted it making you look that much more foolish for even saying it.

Issues with your opening: Why was your opening only Speed/Strength? There are so many other things to cover in this aspect. Why would you level out combat abilities, or power set, or anything else that may have better help prove the superiority of your character.

Lastly: Gammar. Too many errors, I'm not the greatest in this area. But even still it's important. If your debate is hard to read, then that's a big problem.

Here is a issue I had over all. Neither of you guys in your opening stated your case. How is Goku going to beat superman. How is Superman going to beat Goku? I understand that we are debating this, but no one said how it would happen, why it would happen or why any of the feats were even important. Ultimately it was up to the reader to draw conclusion of what was important and not as neither debator actually explain what tactic would be used to gain victory, why it would be successful and how their character would counter the other. What exactly where you guys trying to prove.
Now, obviously, it was a VS battle. I understand this. However, I believe that it is important to understand the position of the debator and what they are trying to support. Neither of you offered this. You only offered feats on who was stronger/faster more durable.

So with all that in mind. My vote is for Homicidalmaniac.

and for a few reasons.

Popes calculations have much to do with this. I want it to be clear that it's not like I don't understand the math. Hell, he does it for me. The simple fact of the matter is those numbers, when placed against the feats and events of DBZ ARE NOT CONGRUENT.
Now you attempt to addresses this.

Even if Goku is not a Galaxy Buster, then he is at least a Solar System++ Buster, so that means he has the destructive capability of busting:

  • Moons.
  • Planets.
  • Stars.
  • Asteroid Belts.
  • Sun(s).

Also just because Goku hasn't busted any of these, that in no way means he couldn't.

In the quote above. Further saying that it doesn't match his character to have done those things. But this isn't a worth defense. Superman/Goku play the same role right. Yet we have seen Superman Destroy planets. So, I am not convinced in this area. While the math makes sense, I do not believe you proved in your debate what Goku could do, only what he should be able to do.

Another thing is your own inconstancy

I never said it was, and you haven't proven that Superman could properly react at even nanosecond speeds, so stop using Flash's reaction speed timing of zeptoseconds.

Superman does not and should not have zeptosecond reaction speed. If he ever did show some cases of it, it was either because he had time to accelerate his senses, or it was pure PIS.

vs

My calculations are fan-made yes, but they aren't wrong. In fact they're highly low-end calculations of Goku. I don't see the inaccuracy in them according to you.

As I said, DBZ is highly inconsistent. Hence why other later characters aren't able to react to a Solar Flare

This is a cause in which one thing works for you, but not the other person. By your own word, DBZ is inconstant. There are more showing of the solar flare being successful than not. So why not call this PIS? There were other times you did this but i don't feel like explaining further. This post is already long



So ending this. I feel that Hamocial debated better in who was the better character as I don't believe either of you proved who would win in a fight.