CAV: Goku and Vegeta vs Superman and Wonder Woman - VOTING

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This is not an open thread. CAV means "Challenge A Viner," it is a private debate between myself and another user. When the debate is finished anybody can come in and vote on who provided the better arguments, NOT which team they believe wins. Until then, PLEASE do not post your thoughts on the battle or interfere at all. My opponent and I decided to make a new thread to avoid all the clutter in the other one. We will be re-posting our exact arguments and then continuing where we left off.

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It's the Super Saiyan Warriors of Dragon Ball going head-to-head with DC's Man of Steel and Princess of the Amazons. It's a match to go down in legends, who will come out on top in this Earth-shattering power brawl of galactic proportions? Four of the most powerful fighters in the universe, going head, to head, to head, to head.

• Morals on
• No knowledge
• Anime versions of Goku and Vegeta, including all filler and canon movies
• Pre and New 52 versions of Superman and Wonder Woman
• Battle on the planet of the Kais
• TO THE DEAD

Goku and Vegeta - @nickzambuto

Superman and Wonder Woman - @the_man_with_questions

@the_man_with_questions As an avid fan of Dragon Ball AND the man of steel, I've wanted to throw my hat into the Goku vs Superman ring for a long time now, and adding in Vegeta and Wonder Woman is just a big bonus. Let me start with saying that this will by no means be an easy victory for either party. Superman and Goku are destined to stalemate for all eternity; if you put a gun to my head I might have to side with Goku for a slim majority, but throwing Wonder Woman into the mix might give team DC the leg up. Though at the same time, it's pretty hard for me to picture the Prince of all Saiyans being felled by a pitiful earthling, Amazonian or not, so then we're back to this match being a toss-up. In the end, I will side with team DBZ more often than not, but it's close. I've witnessed more than a few Goku vs Superman debates, and from those I feel like I have a good idea of each character's strengths, weaknesses, and more or less how the battle would play out, and in my opinion I just feel that Goku has the overall advantage. Wonder Woman is the wild card here, but at the end of the day, I believe that Goku and Vegeta's advantages in fighting skills, destructive power, and their plethora of miscellaneous techniques and transformations will lead to their eventual victory over the DC duo.

Let me start with Goku and Vegeta's biggest advantage; fighting skills. As Saiyans, both Goku and Vegeta are naturally superior warriors. What other fighters gain through training and experience, a Saiyan can do through instinct. Korin is an 800 year old martial arts grandmaster. During his first meeting with Goku, the Saiyan couldn't even lay a finger on him due to his ability to read minds and body language.

Yet after only three days of training, Goku learned how to counter Korin's moves and successfully outfought him.

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Move reading is a technique that took Master Roshi three years of intense training to master, however Goku figured it out on his own after just three days of trying. For an amateur martial artist like Superman, it should take Goku mere seconds, a few minutes at most to learn his moves, and from there dodging everything the man of steel throws out in CQC should be easy. The same is true for Vegeta, as a child he was shown easily sidestepping numerous Saibamen with minimal effort, despite a single Saibamen being a match for Yamcha's martial arts.

They may seem dumb, but they were genetically engineered to be great fighters, capable of using throws, parries, and basic tactics.

Additionally, Mr. Popo taught Goku how to anticipate his opponent's every move by mastering all of his senses, detecting the slightest shift in the atmosphere, and tracking their ki.

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The training is mostly glossed over in the manga, but in the anime Popo sends Goku to learn calmness and concentration from a fisherman by feeling the movements in a lake, teaches him how to empty his mind and focus by sparring against an emotionless clay version of himself, has him train his senses by playing hide n' seek blindfolded, and disciplines his mind with constant meditation. After three years, Goku is able to predict Tien Shinhan's attacks without even looking at him. The best part? Vegeta also learned how to sense ki, just by fighting Goku and watching him do it.

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During the Buu Saga, Goku was able to easily dodge hits from a much stronger character in total darkness, just by sensing the shifts in the atmosphere. He also claims that Gohan and Vegeta can do this as well by using the words "us" and "we"; it's all a casual affair by this point. The only problem is Vegeta's more head-strong fighting style doesn't really focus on predicting and countering as much as Goku's does, but if he does end up battling Kal-El, he should still have the advantage thanks to his Saiyan blood. Goku on the other hand, can easily dodge and block everything Superman throws out by predicting his moves before he does them.

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Like so. Trunks is also a much better fighter than Superman, AND he was stronger than Goku at this point in the series, yet the Saiyan treated him casually.

In terms of reaction time, Goku was able to dodge photon beams in his base form during the Android Saga, so he can definitely react if Clark comes at him faster than light.

Additionally, during his battle against Freeza, Goku was able to escape the paralyzing light ball the instant it exploded. If he wasn't traveling faster than light at that time, than the light attack would have consumed him, but it clearly did not.

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And I can not stress enough the monumental, astronomical difference in power between Freeza arc/Androids arc base Goku, and Super Saiyan God Goku, or even Super Saiyan 3. It's two decades of training and three transformations; given this level of skill and speed, Goku should do a good job at parrying Superman while skillfully landing his own blows in precision weak points. Like this.

Goku has done some heavy damage to characters more durable than Superman, so I see no reason to believe he can't put the man of steel down. Freeza has consistently treated planet busting damage and attacks with absolute casualness. It took an enraged fully-powered blast from Vegeta just to make him blink -- Vegeta, who had planet busting power back in the Saiyan arc -- and even then he still easily kicked it away.

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He even managed to survive a Super Spirit Bomb and came away with scratches. Goku took energy from the whole planet, the sun, every living organism in the solar system, and Freeza at only 50% power took it without major problems.

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An actual planet exploding on top of Freeza did literally no damage. He was already out of energy and cut in half, but his base durability withstood Namek's destruction with no additional damage.

I think he's pretty comparable to Superman. Clark can't really tank planetary level explosions without being harmed, but after turning Super Saiyan, a haymaker from Goku could make Freeza's eyes bulge out and have him barf out blood.

Bottom line; Goku has injured very durable characters before. He can injure Supes and eventually bring him down.

Wonder Woman's skill will complicate things, but it still holds true that Goku can bring her down. Vegeta too, has the strength to bring them both down if given the chance, being much stronger than Super Saiyan 1 Goku. One particular advantage he has in this though is his insane energy output. The Galick Gun, Final Flash, Big Bang Attack, etc are all some of the strongest ki blasts the series has to offer. For proof, look no further than the famous Kamehameha vs Galick Gun clash. It's true Vegeta lost, but only when Goku activated Kaio-Ken x4. At Kaio-Ken x3, Vegeta was actually winning, despite Goku's power level being far, far higher.

This proves that Vegeta's ki blasts can achieve power far beyond their means. As an Ascended Super Saiyan, Vegeta quite literally blew Perfect Cell apart.

If not for Cell's regeneration, the saga would have ended right there. At the time, Vegeta couldn't even injure Perfect Cell, yet his Final Flash was strong enough to destroy him. Considering EOS Vegeta is much, much stronger than Perfect Cell, it really puts his power into perspective. This is far, far beyond planet busting. Vegeta can do some serious damage to either Supes or Diana with just a casual blast, a fully charged one on the other hand would end things. The best part is, neither Superman nor Wonder Woman have any counter for this either. The blasts travel at massively FTL speeds; in an instant the Final Flash was stretching out into the universe, so their chances of dodging are iffy at best. Meanwhile, they have no way of blocking it. Heat vision can't possibly match that power, and Wonder Woman has no energy projection at all.

I believe this summarizes my thoughts, and since I'm pressed for time, I'll leave things like this. Very much looking forward to your reply.

@nickzambuto:

No man, my computer literally won't let me copy and paste. I need you to post all of are arguments.

Not a problem, not a problem. You just get to working on your next counter.

The_Man_With_Questions said:

I always believed Superman would beat Goku but I never imagined him and Wonder Woman confronting Goku and Vegeta up until now. At the end of the day I believe my team of Superman and Wonder Woman will over come yours by utilizing their superior physicals and a few other miscellaneous abilities.

Superman:

Superman has the best striking and overall strength in this match. I don't believe any should detest unless proven other wise. (Which won't happen.)

Superman is also the fastest in this match. (Even though it is somewhat arguable when it comes to combat speed.) He is many times faster than light in both movement and reaction speed. His speed even grants him other abilities such as invisibility and phasing.

And finally we have durability. Superman far surpass everyone here when it comes to durability. Once again, no one should detest this point. Let's few the following examples displaying his tremendous durability.

Wonder Woman:

Wonder Woman is definitely the second strongest of the teams here. (Luckily I have both of the physical power houses here.) She has some decent strength and striking feats to verify this.

Wonder Woman also has the second best durability in this match. She took a hit that sent her plummeting to Earth from the Sun as shown here and has no problem smiling after punching the a nuke.

Now lets address Wonder Woman's speed. She is once again arguable equal if not faster than Goku or Vegeta in combat speed.

I once again believe that Wonder Woman can physically over power either member of your team and will once again touch on some of her of miscellaneous capabilities later down the line.

@the_man_with_questions: As an avid fan of Dragon Ball AND the man of steel, I've wanted to throw my hat into the Goku vs Superman ring for a long time now, and adding in Vegeta and Wonder Woman is just a big bonus. Let me start with saying that this will by no means be an easy victory for either party. Superman and Goku are destined to stalemate for all eternity; if you put a gun to my head I might have to side with Goku for a slim majority, but throwing Wonder Woman into the mix might give team DC the leg up. Though at the same time, it's pretty hard for me to picture the Prince of all Saiyans being felled by a pitiful earthling, Amazonian or not, so then we're back to this match being a toss-up. In the end, I will side with team DBZ more often than not, but it's close. I've witnessed more than a few Goku vs Superman debates, and from those I feel like I have a good idea of each character's strengths, weaknesses, and more or less how the battle would play out, and in my opinion I just feel that Goku has the overall advantage. Wonder Woman is the wild card here, but at the end of the day, I believe that Goku and Vegeta's advantages in fighting skills, destructive power, and their plethora of miscellaneous techniques and transformations will lead to their eventual victory over the DC duo.

Let me start with Goku and Vegeta's biggest advantage; fighting skills. As Saiyans, both Goku and Vegeta are naturally superior warriors. What other fighters gain through training and experience, a Saiyan can do through instinct. Korin is an 800 year old martial arts grandmaster. During his first meeting with Goku, the Saiyan couldn't even lay a finger on him due to his ability to read minds and body language.

Here's my problem. Yes Goku is great fighter but it doesn't really matter if he can't tag his opponent. Even if he could read Superman or Wonder Woman's moves (Which I doubt he'll be able to due to the fact that he won't even be able to see Superman or Wonder Woman.) I doubt he could counter his other more miscellaneous abilities such as heat vision, freeze breath, and the other abilities that accompany his speed. (Invisibility & intangibility.)

I also think you undermined Superman's fighting capabilities. He's been trained by Wildcat, Batman, & Wonder Woman in hand to hand combat and knows Kryptonian martial arts styles such as Torquasm Vo and Torquasam Rao.

Wonder Woman has had sparring matches with Batman and was trained by the God of War himself, Ares! She's extremely skilled and should be easily capable of keeping up with Goku and Vegeta.

Yet after only three days of training, Goku learned how to counter Korin's moves and successfully outfought him.

Move reading is a technique that took Master Roshi three years of intense training to master, however Goku figured it out on his own after just three days of trying. For an amateur martial artist like Superman, it should take Goku mere seconds, a few minutes at most to learn his moves, and from there dodging everything the man of steel throws out in CQC should be easy. The same is true for Vegeta, as a child he was shown easily sidestepping numerous Saibamen with minimal effort, despite a single Saibamen being a match for Yamcha's martial arts.

As I said. I believe you were undermining Superman's fighting capabilities (Even though that initial post was meant as a counter for this.) And like I said once again. Move reading doesn't help if you can't see your opponent. However in this case Superman will be able to see his opponent slower than lightning. (I don't believe you've provided a sufficient argument for Goku being faster than light.)

They may seem dumb, but they were genetically engineered to be great fighters, capable of using throws, parries, and basic tactics.

Additionally, Mr. Popo taught Goku how to anticipate his opponent's every move by mastering all of his senses, detecting the slightest shift in the atmosphere, and tracking their ki.

The training is mostly glossed over in the manga, but in the anime Popo sends Goku to learn calmness and concentration from a fisherman by feeling the movements in a lake, teaches him how to empty his mind and focus by sparring against an emotionless clay version of himself, has him train his senses by playing hide n' seek blindfolded, and disciplines his mind with constant meditation. After three years, Goku is able to predict Tien Shinhan's attacks without even looking at him. The best part? Vegeta also learned how to sense ki, just by fighting Goku and watching him do it.

During the Buu Saga, Goku was able to easily dodge hits from a much stronger character in total darkness, just by sensing the shifts in the atmosphere. He also claims that Gohan and Vegeta can do this as well by using the words "us" and "we"; it's all a casual affair by this point. The only problem is Vegeta's more head-strong fighting style doesn't really focus on predicting and countering as much as Goku's does, but if he does end up battling Kal-El, he should still have the advantage thanks to his Saiyan blood. Goku on the other hand, can easily dodge and block everything Superman throws out by predicting his moves before he does them.

Once again, I don't believe you've provided a sufficient argument for Goku or Vegeta being able to react to Superman and Wonder Woman can at least keep up with either of them.

Like so. Trunks is also a much better fighter than Superman, AND he was stronger than Goku at this point in the series, yet the Saiyan treated him casually.

In terms of reaction time, Goku was able to dodge photon beams in his base form during the Android Saga, so he can definitely react if Clark comes at him faster than light.

Additionally, during his battle against Freeza, Goku was able to escape the paralyzing light ball the instant it exploded. If he wasn't traveling faster than light at that time, than the light attack would have consumed him, but it clearly did not.

And I can not stress enough the monumental, astronomical difference in power between Freeza arc/Androids arc base Goku, and Super Saiyan God Goku, or even Super Saiyan 3. It's two decades of training and three transformations; given this level of skill and speed, Goku should do a good job at parrying Superman while skillfully landing his own blows in precision weak points. Like this.

None of that proved Goku is faster than light. As far as I'm concerned there just lasers and even Aquaman has blocked and avoided those. It would be better if you presented a more verifiable feat such as Goku dodging as laser from Earth to another planet. Then we obviously know the laser is faster than light. This also doesn't provide a sufficient argument for Vegeta's speed but moving on.

Tell me. How does Goku or Vegeta suffice against a planet wide beam hotter than the sun?

Goku has done some heavy damage to characters more durable than Superman, so I see no reason to believe he can't put the man of steel down. Freeza has consistently treated planet busting damage and attacks with absolute casualness. It took an enraged fully-powered blast from Vegeta just to make him blink -- Vegeta, who had planet busting power back in the Saiyan arc -- and even then he still easily kicked it away.

He even managed to survive a Super Spirit Bomb and came away with scratches. Goku took energy from the whole planet, the sun, every living organism in the solar system, and Freeza at only 50% power took it without major problems.

An actual planet exploding on top of Freeza did literally no damage. He was already out of energy and cut in half, but his base durability withstood Namek's destruction with no additional damage.

I think he's pretty comparable to Superman. Clark can't really tank planetary level explosions without being harmed, but after turning Super Saiyan, a haymaker from Goku could make Freeza's eyes bulge out and have him barf out blood.

Bottom line; Goku has injured very durable characters before. He can injure Supes and eventually bring him down.

Sorry but none of this really shows that Frezia is anywhere near as durable as Superman. When Superman survives that destruction of a planet and what not he's usually just knocked out. Not only that but the only showing there that makes Frezia seem like he's has planet level durability is him surviving the destruction of Namek. The others just show that he has a good defense against energy based attacks. (Something neither of my team often utilize.) So while I agree that Goku (And only Goku as you haven't provided anything to suggest that Vegeta can harm my duo physically.) can harm my team physically, he'll still have a hard time doing so.

Wonder Woman's skill will complicate things, but it still holds true that Goku can bring her down. Vegeta too, has the strength to bring them both down if given the chance, being much stronger than Super Saiyan 1 Goku. One particular advantage he has in this though is his insane energy output. The Galick Gun, Final Flash, Big Bang Attack, etc are all some of the strongest ki blasts the series has to offer. For proof, look no further than the famous Kamehameha vs Galick Gun clash. It's true Vegeta lost, but only when Goku activated Kaio-Ken x4. At Kaio-Ken x3, Vegeta was actually winning, despite Goku's power level being far, far higher.

This proves that Vegeta's ki blasts can achieve power far beyond their means. As an Ascended Super Saiyan, Vegeta quite literally blew Perfect Cell apart.

If not for Cell's regeneration, the saga would have ended right there. At the time, Vegeta couldn't even injure Perfect Cell, yet his Final Flash was strong enough to destroy him. Considering EOS Vegeta is much, much stronger than Perfect Cell, it really puts his power into perspective. This is far, far beyond planet busting. Vegeta can do some serious damage to either Supes or Diana with just a casual blast, a fully charged one on the other hand would end things. The best part is, neither Superman nor Wonder Woman have any counter for this either. The blasts travel at massively FTL speeds; in an instant the Final Flash was stretching out into the universe, so their chances of dodging are iffy at best. Meanwhile, they have no way of blocking it. Heat vision can't possibly match that power, and Wonder Woman has no energy projection at all.

While we do here Trunks say Vegeta could destroy the entire planet he never really does even though the blast itself is very impressive. I also doubt my team will just sit there and let Vegeta charge up such an attack. Not only that but while I don't think Wonder Woman could escape the blast Superman could easily pull her out of the way. Heck, Superman has even seen light in slow motion.

I believe this summarizes my thoughts, and since I'm pressed for time, I'll leave things like this. Very much looking forward to your reply.

Alright man. Your move. Sorry about the triple post. My computer was lagging and badly.

@nickzambuto: Thanks.

Let me start with saying that the physical difference between Goku and Superman really isn't that big at all. I'd even say Goku has the advantage with Superman being more comparable to someone like Freeza. Let's recap,

Destroys Planet Vegeta with his finger.

Totally disintegrates Namek's core while, according to Goku, subconsciously holding back from fear.

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Uproots and tosses an island with just telekinesis.

Splits a planet in half with a wave of his hand.

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And numerous instances of tanking planetary-level attacks.

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Just to be clear, it does take planetary level attacks to affect Freeza. Anything less is ineffective, seen when Goku kicked him through several whole islands and he just got up totally fine.

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Yet when Goku became a Super Saiyan he broke Freeza's hand with just his grip, tanked his attacks, and tossed him around with just telekinesis.

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Even at 100% power, not only were Freeza's best hits were totally ineffectual against Goku, but the Super Saiyan's fists were doing more damage than actual planet-destroying blasts.

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In your post you just wrote off Freeza's durability as good against energy attacks and not blunt force, but can you actually prove that he handles the two types of damage differently? Ki blasts usually make their mark through concussive force and/or an explosion, which is basically blunt force anyway, so there's really no reason to believe that Goku's strikes aren't planet busting considering he's damaged characters with planet busting durability. This isn't even getting into Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, or Super Saiyan God.

Meanwhile there's the matter of speed.

None of that proved Goku is faster than light. As far as I'm concerned there just lasers and even Aquaman has blocked and avoided those. It would be better if you presented a more verifiable feat such as Goku dodging as laser from Earth to another planet. Then we obviously know the laser is faster than light.

Just wondering, do you know what a photon is? Photons are light, and the attack Goku dodged in that scan is Dr. Gero's photon ray. That's already enough to prove Goku is faster than light, and by extension, Vegeta as well considering Piccolo states Vegeta has become stronger than Goku in the next scene.

You want a more "verifiable" feat? I can bust out the scans of Kid Goku outrunning Tien's solar flare during the 22nd Budokai. The solar flare is a technique that flashes a bright beam of light to blind opponents; in this scene Goku sees the light, thinks of how to counter it, and easily races across the stadium to grab Master Roshi's glasses before it can reach him.

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Later on Yamcha references the incident and directly states that Goku moves at the speed of light.

This is made even more consistent by Piccolo claiming Raditz moves faster than the speed of light in the FUNimation dub after Raditz dodges the special beam cannon which moves at light speeds.

I can also bring up the time Kid Goku caught a dragon ball before it could spread across the earth, or his various laser dodging feats, but honestly I'm not going to make the case that Kid Goku was FTL. Even though it's technically consistent, that would just make the character way too powerful, even for my liking. Adult Goku is still faster than Superman, but I'll get into that later. For now, let me address the feats posted for Superman.

Striking Wonder Woman hard enough to send her plummeting into Earth from the Sun!

Very impressive, however Superman was under mind control at the time and thought Wonder Woman was Doomsday. He was borderline bloodlusted, whereas his morals are going to be a major hinderance in this scenario. Superman rarely if ever fights to his full strength, the fact is he won't be hitting Goku with a punch that powerful.

In a weakened state Superman lifts the weight of the Earth for five days

Not bad, however I believe Goku has the ability to lift a planet as well should he need to. During the Buu Saga, he easily tossed around a massive block of Katchin in his base form. Katchin is the hardest metal in the universe and therefore would be extremely dense as well. Consider this; Old Kai had the power to effortlessly destroy planets, and the Z-Sword had all of Old Kai's power. Now when the Z-Sword came in contact with the Katchin, it was immediately overpowered and snapped in half instantly. The Old Kai's power was not enough to scratch the Katchin, meaning the block was stronger than a planet and therefore equally as dense.

Some may say that's a stretch, but personally I think it makes perfect sense. Again, Old Kai > planets, Old Kai = Z-Sword, Z-Sword << Katchin, therefore Katchin >> planets.

Using his speed to vibrate fast enough so that he appeared invisible. However it does seem like Goku could potentially sense Superman. Never the less, this is still an impressive testimony of speed.

You're gonna have to do better than that, Goku could tap around fast enough to appear invisible when he was a kid.

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Here Superman is vibrating fast enough to phase through Doomsday's punches. Your team shouldn't really have a defense of counter for this.

Close enough.

He goes from Pluton to Earth in seconds. That's about six hundred times the speed of light.

I can't really read the scan, but regardless Superman's travel speed has never been his reaction speed. There are numerous comics that display this, Batman has even gone on record stating that Superman is Usain Bolt whereas Wonder Woman is Bruce Lee, when comparing their speed.

Then there's also this.

Green Lantern dilates things down to a second yet Superman can still move around in this time frame.

Impressive, but I believe I can counter this with a feat from the Saiyan Saga.

As you can see here, Goku states that the Kaio-Ken amplifies the users power, but only for the span of a single heartbeat.

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Yet in that time, Goku and Vegeta were able to have an entire fight sequence, with Vegeta taking the advantage.

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Later Goku uses the Kaio-Ken x3 and he and Vegeta have a fight that lasts the majority of the chapter. They exchange blows, throw ki blasts, get a bit of dialogue, Vegeta takes a minute to recover, throw more punches, etc etc all in the span of a single heartbeat.

Not entirely sure how to gauge this feat but impressive none the less

That statement was an exaggeration on Clark's part, it's been established that only Flash can react at the femtosecond range whereas Superman is in the nanosecond. Kinda like how a mother would yell at their child "you have half a second to put that down or else!" Obviously the mom can't do anything in half a second, it's a figure of speech. Superman was doing the exact same thing there.

Superman can see lightning in slow motion. I'm curious to know. Can Goku or Vegeta move faster than lightning?

Mr. Popo taught Goku how to move faster than lightning when he was a kid, and there was an episode where as part of his training, Goku had to wear a crown that attracted lightning straight to his head and he needed to dodge it.

Surviving the collision of New Genesis & Apocalypse

This knocked Superman out cold. Freeza survived Namek's destruction while cut in half with no energy left, and the explosion resulted in almost no additional damage. If Goku can injure Freeza at SSJ1, he can most definitely deal some heavy damage to Clark.

Survives a super nova

I'm not entirely impressed with a character surviving an explosion of the thing that empowers them. If anything Superman should have gotten stronger, I'm not surprised at all that he survived.

One thing that both of these durability feats have in common is that they both resulted in Superman losing consciousness. As impressive as the showings are, in this match that would result in Superman's loss, so they're really not entirely applicable. I need to see what Superman can endure BEFORE passing out. This is one area where I doubt Clark can match up to Goku. Even with a shattered body and only one limb left, he still found the power to defeat King Piccolo, a character so much vastly stronger than Goku at the time that he could break his bones by blowing rocks. Against Piccolo Jr. at the 23ed Budokai, Goku endured numerous grievous injuries, not the least of which being numerous broken bones, two shattered legs, his arm nearly being burned off, and a fist sized hole straight through his chest. Again, he found the strength to win. He was able to put Raditz in a full-nelson and hold him still through sheer force of will, despite currently having a shattered chest plate among numerous other injuries. If you look at the colored manga chapters, Goku is almost always completely riddled with painful contusions and cuts. Often times more blood will be visible than flesh.

How often is Superman reduced to such a state but continues fighting? Not often. It seriously takes the destruction of every bone in this guy's body just to keep him down. That's the only thing he wasn't able to will through, when Great Ape Vegeta crushed him. Everything else? Just scream louder and it's no problem.

In a battle of endurance, Superman will go down before Goku. This advantage can be a key factor in team DBZ's victory.

The last thing I want to discuss before moving onto Vegeta vs Wonder Woman is the matter of Clark's combat skill. First of all, if I read correctly, the two Torquasm styles don't teach fighting techniques, they're more about meditation and "resisting mental domination" or something to that effect. I know Clark has been trained by Wildcat, Batman, and Wonder Woman, but Goku was trained by gods. Seriously, it's not even a comparison. I'm sorry, but there can be no argument for Superman keeping up with Goku's martial arts. I'm not undermining Superman's skill, I'm just being honest. In the DC universe, Superman is a bottom-tier fighter. The extent of his skill is defeating Ultraman, a spoiled, inexperienced punk, and some nameless Kryptonian soldier who was nothing more than fodder. He can't even take multiple fodder, just one at a time. You seriously think such a foe would be a challenge to Goku? Someone who he is on COMPLETELY even physical ground with, and has zero combat skill? No, Goku would eat a fighter like that for breakfast. Even as a child, before training with Kami or King Kai, Goku was able to humiliate King Piccolo with his martial arts. King Piccolo, the centuries old grandmaster martial artist, who happened to be far stronger than Goku as well.

Piccolo waves his hand and creates a wind strong enough to nearly knock Goku off his feet, and he blows rocks hard enough to break Goku's bones. He's like, 100 times stronger than the kid.

I can't post the full fight because it's 3-4 chapters long, but here's a link if you want to read it yourself. Goku is able to more or less manhandle Piccolo by anticipating his attacks and precision striking bodily weak points. He counters the demon king's versatile powerset with various tactics, redirecting his Kamehameha wave and using the power pole as a launcher among other things. If Superman and Piccolo were at equal power levels, Clark would get slaughtered, let alone if Piccolo maintained his strength to knock Clark back by waving his hand or break his bones by blowing rocks, as he was against Goku.

Superman and Goku's martial arts skills really aren't comparable at all, Clark might as well not have any training in this fight.

Now for Vegeta and Wonder Woman.

Wonder Woman is definitely the second strongest of the teams here. (Luckily I have both of the physical power houses here.) She has some decent strength and striking feats to verify this.

Such confidence! However, I'm going to have to disagree with you there pretty strongly. Wonder Woman seems like a massive weak link to me, her strength isn't anything compared to Superman's, she only ever hangs with him thanks to being faster and infinitely more skilled, neither of which apply against Vegeta. The Saiyan Prince packs more than enough punch to down her after awhile, and his ludicrous damage soak should ensure that he remains the last man standing when the dust settles. Let me get straight into it and start comparing Diana's feats to Vegeta's.

Striking Batman with Superman's powers into the moon leaving a decent sized crater

The vacuum of space provides zero resistance to an object in motion, and considering they weren't very far from the moon anyway, I'm going to have to say a punch like this won't seriously affect Vegeta. After all, the crater wasn't very big and Batman was pretty much unfazed afterwards, so let's not act like Diana can oneshot Vegeta here. He's taken heavier hits in far weaker forms and come out just fine. Back during the Namek Arc, Vegeta took an absolutely brutal beating from Zarbon but managed to keep fighting till the very end. Multiple bones were broken, he got blown up, and the force of their punches created shockwaves that shattered a small mountain miles away. Zarbon ended up piledriving Vegeta into the dirt headfirst all the way from the lower atmosphere, with the resulting crash forming a large canyon.

Now consider the fact that by the end of the Namek Saga, Vegeta had grown strong enough that he wouldn't even notice these attacks. And then add nearly two decades of training and two Super Saiyan transformations, and Vegeta is quite literally in an entirely different dimension from what he did here. At his very best, he was even able to tank a punch from Beerus and briefly overpower him, and Beerus is a helluva lot stronger than Wonder Woman.

Granted, Vegeta most likely wouldn't reach this level of rage during a fight against Wonder Woman, but it's still worth considering.

Lifting a large air craft

That's really a Saiyan Saga feat, it has no place here when we're debating powerhouse level characters. Great Ape Gohan easily lifted a similarly sized boulder over his head, and Vegeta even while half dead was more than a match for him.

Vegeta tanks, dodges, and hurts Oozaru, despite a large amount of the bones in his body currently being broken. Going by power levels, Vegeta was actually physically stronger than Oozaru at this time, his injuries simply hindered him.

During the Namek Saga, Vegeta was able to toss Recoome miles across the planet and then through a mountain. That's gotta be at least in league with lifting the aircraft carrier.

While I'm on the subject, let me address Wonder Woman's durability.

Superman punches Wonder Woman hard enough to send her plummeting into Earth from the Sun!

To be fair, that punch made Wonder Woman black out for an instant, and afterwards she was praying to the gods for help. She clearly can't take more than a few punches like that before she drops, and even though Vegeta can't quite replicate that amount of power exactly, he comes close enough to drop Wonder Woman eventually. Being far above Super Saiyan level, Vegeta has no problem dominating characters with planetary level durability, nor does he have trouble tanking hits of a similar caliber.

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Here's a striking feat I don't think Wonder Woman should take lightly -- with a casual elbow Vegeta splits an island in half using Cell's body, sends him across miles and miles of ocean despite water resistance, and finally through another island. He then laughs and says "All too easy", meaning that's not even the extent of his Ascended Super Saiyan power.

At Super Saiyan 2, Vegeta undoubtedly has the power to rock Wonder Woman's world. If the aforementioned feat of drawing blood from Bills isn't enough, just by waving his hand Vegeta created a wind strong enough to knock Gohan to the ground.

Gohan even at base is incredibly strong. Fusion Reborn isn't entirely canon, but it's worth mentioning that he was able to completely obliterate Freeza with a single punch.

And yet a wave of Vegeta's hand had him on the ground. Can you imagine if that motion actually connected with someone rather than just being used to make a wind? The damage would be astronomical, more than enough to give Diana her second wind.

The nuke feat, like the aircraft carrier, is not very impressive. I don't know why you were so confident about Diana's power so grossly outranking Goku and Vegeta's if that's the best she has; nukes are midtier, again these are powerhouses we're debating. Vegeta could tank a planet busting beam back during the Saiyan Saga in Goku's Kaio-Ken x4 Kamehameha, let alone a nuclear bomb. A nuke is a King Piccolo level feat. I'm pretty confident Vegeta is more durable than Wonder Woman given the atrocious beatings he's had to endure throughout the series, not the least of which being three separate, consecutive battles against KID BUU at the very end of the series.

The dude's like a zombie, he just refuses to die. Kid Buu was strong enough to physically shove back a Spirit Bomb and yet he can't beat Vegeta.

To recap, Vegeta has more than enough strength to potentially bring Wonder Woman down, and given his crazy durability even by DBZ standards, he will surely live up to that potential. That leaves the only remaining matter as speed.

Keeping up with the entire Justice League while blind fold.

This is hardly a speed feat, she's clearly overpowering the League, nobody is using any speed. Considering Manhunter and Flash are the only two worthwhile characters fighting her in that scene, and they are both known to hold back tremendously, it really doesn't say anything about her speed.

Keeping up with Jessie Quick

Jessie Quick doesn't exactly set the bar when it comes to speedsters. Another midtier feat.

There are probably hundreds of instances of Wonder Woman blocking bullets

Oh come on you can do better than that.

You want speed? How about Super Buu firing billions of ki blasts that travel all the way around the world killing every single human being on the planet with perfect accuracy in a matter of minutes?

The blasts can travel across the planet almost immediately and towards the end of the video you see them going out into space; pretty dang fast, and this is base Super Buu. After absorbing Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Gohan, his power more than doubled, and yet Goku and Vegeta were skillful enough to evade all of his attacks for an extended period of time, despite his ludicrous accuracy (killing every human has gotta be one of the best accuracy feats in fiction)

As for Wonder Woman's level of skill, she's certainly more of a threat than Superman, but I wonder, was she depowered during her sparring matches with Batman? If not... well, that really wouldn't say anything for her level of skill.

Being trained by Ares is pretty good, but you say that as if Goku hasn't been trained by multiple gods and Vegeta hasn't matched him on multiple occasions. During Battle of Gods, even before becoming enraged Vegeta was able to put up somewhat of a fight against Beerus thanks to his combat skill. That alone is already a tough feat to match considering Beerus sh!tstomped Ultimate Gohan and Majin Buu at the same time, as well as Gotenks and the rest of the Z Fighters using a pair of chopsticks and pressure points, yet he praised Vegeta's skill.

1:40

The_Man_With_Questions said:

I'll start by addressing Goku vs. Superman. First off, nothing you've presented makes it appear that Goku is anywhere near as strong as Superman. Stopping a few boulders and lifting a few rocks does not equate to lifting the Earth for five days in a weakened state.

I'd also like something more verifiable then the Katchin feat. I'd like to see Goku lifting a planet, not him lifting something that might weigh as much as one. Not only that, but you'd think something as heavy as the Katchin would just sink Goku into the ground or when thrown to the ground it would've sunken in.

Now lets talk speed. So I guess Goku is faster than light. How much faster? Just faster. (Even though normal humans can some how verify this.) However nothing you've provide makes him faster than Superman. Not only that but some of the feats you've provided aren't even verifiable.How long did the fight last when Goku & Vegeta fought in under the span of one heart beat? Was it nanoseconds? Not sure so I'm going to need you to verify.

I'm also not to fond of you low-balling Superman by posting scans of him failing to catch bullets. I mean come on. I've shown scans of him walking around in a nanosecond time frame and moving six hundred times the speed of light and yet you post a scan of him failing to catch bullets. Alright.

Now lets talk about Frezia. Superman is in no way comparable to Frezia. Smarter, faster, stronger, and few other miscellaneous things that seal the deal. I'd also like to note that Frezia's father saying that it would take more than the destruction of a planet to put him down isn't really verifiable and that just because he survived the destruction of a planet doesn't mean Goku was hitting for planet striking punches.

Now lets bring up some of the feats I posted and that you countered. First off, I'm going to go ahead and say fair points of the picosecond thing. Next, fair points once again for the super nova feat. Then there's the planet collision feat. I'm really starting to believe that your undermining Superman. He was ONLY knocked out by the collision of two planets yet Frezia has better durability by surviving the destruction while weakened. It's up to voters to decide but I personally think Superman has better durability showings. (Now can we move on from Frezia and actually discuss the characters in the debate?)

And finally addressing the striking feat. Now this situation is a little bizarre don't you think? Morals on but are characters have to kill each other? I don't see how that's going to work out. I mean why would are guys even fight if that was the case? Just saying. Anyway, Superman has plenty of other striking feats. Punching H'el so hard that it shook the Earth and was felt from space as well as a more casual feat of him punching Mongol out to sea and shattering every widow across the Gotham seaboard. (I'll insert these feats later.)

As for endurance, like I said, Superman has lifted the weight of the Earth for five days and Every one should know about the Death of Superman, where Superman basically stalemated a guy who was embarrassing the rest of the Justice League and it resulted in both of their deaths. Superman can easily last this battle out.

Finally, I never said Superman was a fighting genius. All I said was that you were under estimating his fighting skills when he in facts has feats of him taking out entire gangs of thugs.

Anyway, I'll be utilizing a second post for the Wonder Woman stuff.

@nickzambuto:

I'll have a post up by tomorrow. My computer has been acting strange lately.

@nickzambuto:

Alright! After a few computer problems we can finally get back to the debate! I'll start by addressing Vegeta's strength. I don't see what Gohan (In his ape form.) lifting a boulder has to do with Vegeta. Can you show me Vegeta lifting greater or large objects in general? I also don't see your point when you say "That's really a Saiyan Saga feat"

Let's also address Wonder Woman's striking capabilities. By the looks of it Vegeta has the superior striking feats but you can't deny that Wonder Woman has harmed much more durable beings such as Superman, Powergirl, Supergirl, etc. She should be fully capable of harming Vegeta.

I'd also like to say that Wonder Woman has other means of harming both Vegeta & Goku through the use of weapons such as her atom splitting sword. (Also not sure what level of piercing defense your team possess.)

Now let's discuss Wonder Woman's durability. First off, I'd like you to look at my scan where Wonder Woman is hit from the SUN to the Earth. Keyword there being the Sun. Wonder Woman was easily capable of withstanding the temperatures of the Suns surface. This would eradicate the Earth and your duo from a lot farther. I also don't see how casually punching a nuke unscathed is Mid tier.

Also going back to that from the Sun to the Earth feat, how would Vegeta be able to effectively harm Wonder Woman as you said? Wonder Woman got punched from the Sun to the Earth. I don't see how getting punched a couple of miles and through some small islands will mean anything. Sure she blacked out but nothing you've shown really does anything to suggest that she couldn't take the hits either Goku or Vegeta are putting out. I mean she has plenty of other feats like Powergirl punching her all the way to Canada and remaining conscious as well as seemingly unscathed. She can definitely take a hit. (Even though this should be pretty well established by now.)

And a final thing I'll add for Wonder Woman is the following feat were Wonder Woman uses her bracelets to block a blast from all the Olympian Gods.

Now I'll address Your teams REACTION speed compared to Wonder Woman's. If you really think bullets is the limit to Wonder Woman's combat speed, your sadly mistaken. In the feat below we see Wonder Woman block pieces of a god coming from all corners of the universe at faster than light speed and she blocks all of them.

Now can you confirm the blast shot at all those people were the same shot at Goku and Vegeta. Anyway,this sums up my thoughts for now. Yout move @nickzambuto.

@the_man_with_questions: I've recently come into a few feats that might help to persuade you that Goku is on Superman's physical level. Besides consistently beating on characters with planetary level durability, Goku also has a few noteworthy feats of directly effecting the planet itself with his strikes.

At 45:50, Goku and Cell get into a grapple, and at 46:10 the force they're emitting causes the whole planet to begin rumbling.

At 56:00 Goku and Cell get into a punching contest which begins destroying the battlefield, and at 56:40 the announcer claims that they're making the whole earth shake.

Similarly, during his fight against Kid Buu, the Kais were constantly afraid that Goku would end up destroying the whole planet with his attacks, and if it weren't for the martial artist's incredible level of control, he probably would have.

At 11:19 Kid Buu divebombs Goku all the way from orbit, and the force of them punching each other in the face raises mountains. From 14:30 to 15:23, the force of their battle begins to take it's toll on the planet as it begins crumbling and caving in on itself.

Goku was also able to overpower Pikkon in just his base form, despite Pikkon being so strong that just the shockwaves caused by his punches was enough to totally shatter a small moon miles away.

If all of this still isn't enough for you, Goku at Super Saiyan 3 has one feat in particular that I don't think Superman has any match for. During his first fight against Beerus, Goku threw a haymaker as hard as he could in an attempt to damage the God of Destruction, with the resulting impact blowing a large hole straight through King Kai's planet.

This is actually a pretty insane accomplishment on Goku's part when you think about it. King Kai's planet has 10 times the mass and density of Earth - earlier you questioned whether Goku actually had the strength to destroy planets, but here he's blowing a hole through the equivalent of 10, all packed into a tiny sphere.

A punch like that is going to wreck Superman's face, and considering the aforementioned skill gap, Goku will probably land more than a few of them.

I'd also like something more verifiable then the Katchin feat. I'd like to see Goku lifting a planet, not him lifting something that might weigh as much as one. Not only that, but you'd think something as heavy as the Katchin would just sink Goku into the ground or when thrown to the ground it would've sunken in.

It is a bit of an assumption on my part, I admit, but if you just think about it logically, the Old Kai's inability to damage Katchin MUST mean that it was more dense than your average planet. Goku pushing Pikkon and making the Earth rumble while grappling with Cell would be consistent with this.

Not that it matters really. Goku isn't a wrestler after all, lifting strength won't determine this match. Should Superman try and get him in a grapple, Goku's more than sufficient knowledge on holds coupled with his more than admirable lifting strength should allow him to break free sooner or later. His fight against Tien actually had a segment where the two went back and forth for nearly a minute just using various holds and grapple breakers against each other. Tien is a great fighter, so I think this is enough to prove that Goku has the technical knowledge to escape Superman's grasp should he try and outmuscle the Saiyan.

6:51 Goku dodges Tien's charge by crawling through his legs and attempts to use the Walls of Jericho on his legs, but Tien reverses it and Goku is forced to escape. Goku then comes from behind and grabs Tien in a bear hug, but Tien again counters, only for Goku to come back with a chokehold. Tien is able to reverse the situation into an armbar, ending with Goku tripping up his legs and again putting him into a bear hug.

As for Vegeta, he too can be rather knowledgeable when it comes to holds. He used a particularly brutal one to subdue Dodoria, in this position Vegeta can easily snap both of his opponent's arms at the same time if he wants to.

During the Androids arc Vegeta used a rather unorthodox technique against Android 19. He took advantage of the android's energy absorbing ability by tricking it into locking onto his arms, and then with proper leverage he ripped the android's arms straight off.

Vegeta was even skilled enough to put Goku himself in various holds and have him completely helpless to resist.

When it comes to countering holds, Vegeta was able to break out of Zarbon's grapple despite the unbelievable strength gap between the two at the time, as well as Piccolo's headlock later in the series.

And if all else fails, one Saiyan can always break off from their current struggle to quickly save their partner, I'm pretty sure the teamwork Goku and Vegeta displayed during the Buu Saga should give them a firm advantage in that department.

So really, with ALL that in mind, Superman and Wonder Woman's lifting strength can definitely be countered by some ol' fashioned Saiyan fighting skills, and just a bit of teamwork. I believe striking strength will be the main point of contention in this battle, with both Vegeta and Goku's fighting styles favoring that over wrestling.

Now lets talk speed. So I guess Goku is faster than light. How much faster? Just faster. (Even though normal humans can some how verify this.)

You missed my point, those feats weren't meant as an actual argument, I only posted them as proof to debunk the whole "Goku isn't lightspeed" debate. Clearly a case CAN be made for Goku being faster than the speed of light, because he has light speed feats when he was a kid! Yamcha is far from being a normal human, that's actually a rather ignorant and ridiculous statement to make, but I digress.

I don't enjoy using those feats because they just make Kid Goku way too overpowered for my liking. I prefer the feats like Goku outracing the light from Freeza's paralyzing ball technique, as Namek seems like a good arc for the Z-Warriors to reach lightspeed. One of Goku's BEST feats actually comes from the Cell Games arc, where Goku was able to use Instant Transmission to dodge Cell's full-power Kamehameha.

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Instant Transmission is supposed to be instantaneous, Goku has used it to travel to New Namek which is lightyears away, and yet before Goku could re-materialize behind Cell, the Kamehameha had already reached outer orbit. This means that Goku's reaction time during the Cell Games is quite possibly instantaneous. You literally can not beat that, and with Instant Transmission allowing him to teleport away, Goku is almost untouchable. He's mastered the technique to the point where he no longer needs to use his fingers (presumably he only does that to help concentration) and since Superman is lacking tactical skills compared to characters like Vegeta or Cell, he'll have a hard time tagging Goku.

However nothing you've provide makes him faster than Superman. Not only that but some of the feats you've provided aren't even verifiable.How long did the fight last when Goku & Vegeta fought in under the span of one heart beat? Was it nanoseconds? Not sure so I'm going to need you to verify.

According to wiki answers a heartbeat only lasts 0.857 seconds, and that's when you're calm. Jeez louise! And they were having entire battle sequences at those speeds as early as the Saiyan Saga?! When you consider that, instantaneous reflexes as a Full-Power Super Saiyan really isn't hard to believe.

I'm also not to fond of you low-balling Superman by posting scans of him failing to catch bullets. I mean come on. I've shown scans of him walking around in a nanosecond time frame and moving six hundred times the speed of light and yet you post a scan of him failing to catch bullets. Alright.

The scan is just to prove that Superman doesn't react at the speeds that he travels. I think Superman is more than capable of catching bullets, but he can't fight as quickly as Goku and Vegeta do.

Now lets talk about Frezia. Superman is in no way comparable to Frezia. Smarter, faster, stronger, and few other miscellaneous things that seal the deal.

What about all those feats I posted for Freeza? They seem pretty in league with the stuff you've been posting for Clark to be honest.

I'd also like to note that Frezia's father saying that it would take more than the destruction of a planet to put him down isn't really verifiable and that just because he survived the destruction of a planet doesn't mean Goku was hitting for planet striking punches.

I never mentioned anything about King Cold saying that; in fact I don't recall King Cold saying that at all. But regardless, if Freeza can take a planet's explosion with no damage, how would anything less effect him? That doesn't make sense, Goku as a Super Saiyan 1 punches more than hard enough to injure Superman.

Then there's the planet collision feat. I'm really starting to believe that your undermining Superman. He was ONLY knocked out by the collision of two planets yet Frezia has better durability by surviving the destruction while weakened.

Superman got knocked out, Freeza was completely undamaged.

(Now can we move on from Frezia and actually discuss the characters in the debate?)

Just to clarify I'm not using Freeza's feats as feats for Goku, I'm just using Freeza as a benchmark to compare to Goku. If Goku can damage him than he can damage Clark.

And finally addressing the striking feat. Now this situation is a little bizarre don't you think? Morals on but are characters have to kill each other?

Actually morals on means our characters won't try to kill each other, or at least, Goku and Superman won't (unless Goku is pushed). I don't know about Vegeta and Diana. They'll just be fighting as they would any normal enemy; Goku didn't want to kill Freeza yet he still defeated him, and Superman never wants to kill Zod but that doesn't stop him from fighting and winning.

Anyway, Superman has plenty of other striking feats. Punching H'el so hard that it shook the Earth and was felt from space as well as a more casual feat of him punching Mongol out to sea and shattering every widow across the Gotham seaboard. (I'll insert these feats later.)

The feat against H'el is impressive, but as for Mongol, I wouldn't really accept any feats that aren't planetary or at least close to it given the level of power these characters possess. For example, I think Goku punching Majin Buu all the way to West City and through a skyscraper can match shattering all the windows on Gotham's seaboard, but neither feat really has any place here given the fact that both characters have feats of shaking the whole planet, let alone buildings and such.

As for endurance, like I said, Superman has lifted the weight of the Earth for five days

That's more stamina than endurance, Superman was never struggling with that big machine. I'm talking about how long can our characters go before succumbing to their wounds.

and Every one should know about the Death of Superman, where Superman basically stalemated a guy who was embarrassing the rest of the Justice League and it resulted in both of their deaths.

Now Death of Superman is indeed a very good example of tough Clark really is, but the honest truth is, most DBZ fights end with the characters just as beat up as Superman was by the end of that storyline. It's hard for me to really go into Goku's endurance because SO MANY FIGHTS have him grievously wounded and still not quitting. I think I'd rather just agree that neither of our teams will be succumbing to their wounds any time soon, I might even give you guys the advantage considering Super Saiyan 3 zaps energy very fast.

Superman can easily last this battle out.

Agreed.

Finally, I never said Superman was a fighting genius. All I said was that you were under estimating his fighting skills when he in facts has feats of him taking out entire gangs of thugs.

He's still a bottom-tier martial artist. Bora in the original Dragon Ball defeated a whole Red Ribbon Army unit to protect his village, yet Tao Pai Pai treated his skills like a complete joke. And then Goku after training with Korin was able to predict Tao's every move just by his breathing pattern. Even after Tao was cybernetically enhanced, he was still nothing more than a child compared to Tien Shinhan, and then Goku easily outsmarted Tien. And then after that Goku went and trained with several gods and spent the better half of a decade sparring against the greatest fighters to ever exist in the universe. Suffice to say by the end of the series, Goku is CONSIDERABLY more skilled than Bora, and Bora more or less replicated Superman's best feat.

I don't see what Gohan (In his ape form.) lifting a boulder has to do with Vegeta.

Because Vegeta was stronger than Gohan, as I showed.

I also don't see your point when you say "That's really a Saiyan Saga feat"

Because characters in the Saiyan Saga could replicate that feat.

By the looks of it Vegeta has the superior striking feats but you can't deny that Wonder Woman has harmed much more durable beings such as Superman, Powergirl, Supergirl, etc. She should be fully capable of harming Vegeta.

Oh, I'm definitely not denying that. To be honest I think I've used up all of Vegeta's good strength feats, there's probably a bunch from the movies that I'm forgetting but for now I'll say that they're on fairly even ground. However, one thing I'd like to point out is that at Super Saiyan 2, Vegeta was able to knock Goten and Trunks completely out cold with the most casual of attacks. These are kids that took hits from freakin' Broly in their base forms, and Vegeta oneshotted them in Super Saiyan form with taps.

SSJ2 Vegeta is way stronger than Broly, Cell, and basically every single villain before the Buu Saga, so he won't have any trouble bringing Wonder Woman down, should she give him the chance.

While I'm on the subject, I know that Diana is a great fighter, but she isn't quite the strategist that Vegeta is. Despite his arrogance leading to a few... questionable decisions in the past, you can't deny that Vegeta is by far one of the most intelligent characters in the entire franchise. This was evident as far back as the Saiyan Saga where Vegeta clearly acted as the brains behind Nappa and was the one calling all the shots. It was his plan to get the Dragon Balls, and he was smart enough to realize Piccolo was vital to their use and tell Nappa not to kill him. After transforming into Oozaru, Krillin and Gohan concocted a plan to defeat Vegeta by cutting off his tail, but Vegeta was able to deduce the whole thing and easily counter it the moment he saw them.

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During the Namek and Ginyu Arcs, Vegeta was basically running the whole show the entire time. He planned every step and manipulated everybody involved to suit his own needs, and in the end, Vegeta was the one to end up with all seven Dragon Balls, outsmarting Freeza and his army, the Ginyu Force, the Nameks, Gohan and Krillin, Goku, and everybody else involved all on his own. If it weren't for the untimely demise of Elder Guru rendering the Dragon Balls inert, Vegeta would be ruling the universe right now. I can't really post scans because it happens throughout the whole saga, but you get the idea.

Even Piccolo was in total awe of Vegeta's strategic talents by the time of the Androids arc, referring to him as a complete genius.

It's evident throughout the series that despite Goku's knack for battle tactics, Vegeta is better. King Yemma states that Vegeta is the superior tactician between the two after they fuse into Vegito, and Vegeta even mocks Kakarot during the Androids arc for foolishly activating his Super Saiyan form when he had the heart virus, knowing that the transformation would only make it worse when nobody else thought of that. If you watch the big battle against Kid Buu, you'll see that Vegeta was the one calling the shots and making all the plans, not Goku, King Kai, or anyone else.

My point with all this is that Vegeta, being a master of strategy and manipulation, will most likely end up getting the upperhand over Wonder Woman rather than vice versa. By the end of the series his pride and arrogance have been humbled severely, meaning that his one weakness is no longer present, leaving only the intelligence. Now I could be underestimating Princess Diana's tactical talents, but this is one advantage I really don't think she has a counter for, and it could easily be the game changer for this match.

I'd also like to say that Wonder Woman has other means of harming both Vegeta & Goku through the use of weapons such as her atom splitting sword. (Also not sure what level of piercing defense your team possess.)

The sword was able to split the atom because Superman guided it with his microscopic vision. It's still dang sharp, but I wouldn't say it's much sharper than Trunks' sword, and Goku was able to block that with his finger.

To be honest Vegeta doesn't have any feats against piercing attacks, but theoretically he should be able to replicate Goku's feat. It's a simple matter of protecting your body with ki after all, and Vegeta is pretty good with ki. He was able to deflect several photon lasers fired by Android 19 with just his energy (again, photons travel at light speed) and regularly masters and mimics other characters techniques just by seeing them.

As for dodging, that's a little easier to debate. Vegeta while literally half dead with numerous broken bones was still agile enough to avoid all of Yajirobe's sword slashes with ease. This was after Vegeta had been so severely weakened that Yajirobe could tank his punches, meaning they were at more or less equal power levels with no speed advantage for Vegeta.

Now this is actually a pretty impressive feat for Vegeta, because as hard as it is to believe, Yajirobe happens to be an INCREDIBLE martial artist. He fought Kid Goku to a standstill during the original Dragon Ball, fodderized King Piccolo's henchman when no other fighter could stand up to them, was chosen to be trained by Kami and Popo and is stated to have "far surpassed them both", and made an utter fool out of Krillin during a sparring match while eating and moving nonchalantly. Additionally, on more than one occasion he's demonstrated the ability to cleave objects or opponents thicker than the blade of his katana clean in half. Is he Wonder Woman level? Probably not, but given Vegeta's injuries, his lack of experience at the time, and the ease with which he dodged Yajirobe, I'm sure he can keep up with Diana just fine, and possibly even disarm her.

Now let's discuss Wonder Woman's durability. First off, I'd like you to look at my scan where Wonder Woman is hit from the SUN to the Earth. Keyword there being the Sun. Wonder Woman was easily capable of withstanding the temperatures of the Suns surface. This would eradicate the Earth and your duo from a lot farther. I also don't see how casually punching a nuke unscathed is Mid tier.

A bit hypocritical how you wrote off Freeza's durability as "only" good against energy attacks, but now claim Wonder Woman is more powerful than Vegeta because she can resist heat, isn't it? Well I digress, I seriously doubt the heat of the sun would incinerate Vegeta as easily as you think considering the ki attacks he's withstood in the past.

Also going back to that from the Sun to the Earth feat, how would Vegeta be able to effectively harm Wonder Woman as you said? Wonder Woman got punched from the Sun to the Earth. I don't see how getting punched a couple of miles and through some small islands will mean anything. Sure she blacked out but nothing you've shown really does anything to suggest that she couldn't take the hits either Goku or Vegeta are putting out.

Sure Vegeta can't oneshot her, but enough hits to her vital areas will surely bring her down. I think you might be downplaying Vegeta's feat against Semi-Perfect Cell just a tad; space is a completely empty vacuum with zero resistance, whereas Vegeta put Cell's body through two solid islands. Sure Superman's feat is still better, but that was only Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta. Super Saiyan 2 is quite a bit stronger.

You conceded that Vegeta seems to have better striking feats than Wonder Woman, so now all I have to do is prove that his durability can match up as well and he should be the last man standing. I already posted his fight(s) against Kid Buu, and honestly I think that's enough. Kid Buu was even stronger than a Super Saiyan 3, but Vegeta as a Super Saiyan 2 endured getting pummeled by him relentlessly, strangled, even electrocuted. If you watch the scene, you'll see that not only did Vegeta go so far as to have Goku's jaw dropped, but Kid Buu was actually scared of him for a minute because he wouldn't stay down.

Besides Kid Buu, Vegeta was also able to take numerous hits from Super Buuhan and come out just fine. Buu punched Vegeta so hard that he actually demolished a large mountain, but Vegeta was uninjured.

I'm can say pretty confidently that Super Buuhan was significantly stronger than Wonder Woman, Superman, as well as Goku and Vegeta. In fact I'd go so far as to compare him to Superboy Prime, considering even before the absorbtions Super Buu could scream holes into reality. Remember, he had all the strength of not only Majin Buu, but also Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, and Gohan.

I mean she has plenty of other feats like Powergirl punching her all the way to Canada and remaining conscious as well as seemingly unscathed. She can definitely take a hit. (Even though this should be pretty well established by now.)

Funnily enough, I can actually counter this with feats from the Red Ribbon Army saga. Commander Blue was strong enough to survive Arale headbutting him from Japan all the way to Egypt, and came out relatively uninjured. I don't know where Wonder Woman was when Powergirl punched her, but the distance from Japan to Egypt is greater than anywhere in the United States to Canada.

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Now when Goku fought Commander Blue, his focused hits to vital points had the soldier's eyes bulging out of his head.

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On top of this, Tao Pai Pai killed Blue using just his tongue.

Gallery

Safe to say he's much stronger than Arale, yet Kid Goku (after climbing Korin Tower) barely even felt Tao's punches.

This doesn't say much for Vegeta, but unless you wanna make a case for Kid Goku being more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, the Canada feat shouldn't be a problem.

And a final thing I'll add for Wonder Woman is the following feat were Wonder Woman uses her bracelets to block a blast from all the Olympian Gods.

Nice, however Vegeta himself has blocked and deflected plenty of ki blasts ranging from planetary all the way to solar system busting, so I'm wondering just how powerful are these Olympian gods?

In the feat below we see Wonder Woman block pieces of a god coming from all corners of the universe at faster than light speed and she blocks all of them.

What's actually happening in that scan? It's very unclear, the guy said he's summoning... himself? Well he's already in the room so he can't be coming from every corner of the universe... I can't tell what's actually happening and what he's firing.

Vegeta does have a pretty similar feat though. In the Saiyan Saga he was able to dodge the Spirit Bomb, despite the energy from a spirit bomb being able to travel hundreds of lightyears from Earth to the Kai Planet in just a couple of minutes during the Kid Buu arc.

Obviously Saiyan Saga Vegeta isn't actually that fast, but considering the iffyness of that Wonder Woman scan I think it makes an adequate counter.

Now can you confirm the blast shot at all those people were the same shot at Goku and Vegeta.

No, it was a different attack... Does it really matter? I mean, I guess you could argue that Super Buu slowed down the blasts he fired at Goku and Vegeta, but why on earth would he do that? There's absolutely no proof of such a thing, it's nothing more than an idea. Goku and Vegeta being omnipotent reality warpers is also an idea, can you prove that they're not? No, you really can't. Doesn't mean I'm going to argue that they are.

This might be my last reply. I'll probably make another post clarifying a few things after you've countered, maybe add in a couple extra points, but I think my case is made. To summarize, here's how I break everything down.

Goku and Superman

• Lifting strength - Slight edge to Superman
• Striking power - Even
• Travel speed - Edge to Superman
• Combat speed - Edge to Goku
• Agility/Avoidance - Large edge to Goku
• Durability - Even
• Endurance/Willpower - Even
• Fighting skills - Large edge to Goku
• Versatility - Edge to Goku (more combat applicable powers)
• Tactical skill - Edge to Goku
• Stamina - Large edge to Superman
• Power - Edge to Goku

Overall - Goku isn't quite as strong as Superman, but the gap isn't large. He packs more than enough punch to seriously damage foes like Freeza, Cell, and Majin Buu, so Superman should be no different. Considering the significant advantage Goku has in reflexes as well as agility, and the extreme advantage he has in fighting skills, I see the Saiyan as landing far more hits overall than Superman does, and since the strength/durability gap isn't nearly as large as the martial arts gap, Goku should be able to put Superman down before Superman puts him down. Abilities like ki sensing, instant transmission, solar flare, after image, and telepathy only further Goku's chances of dodging the majority of Superman's attacks, and should Superman get hit by a Kamehameha or any other powerful energy blast, the damage will be tremendous. Likewise heat vision can do some damage to Goku, but since Goku has so many more powers the odds of him tagging with one are higher. Superman can play it smart and wear Goku out as he has much more stamina, but with no knowledge he'll have no idea that Super Saiyan 3 drains energy, and should he deduce that fact, Goku's fighting genius can probably think of a way around. Goku simply has more advantages.

Vegeta vs Wonder Woman

• Lifting strength - Edge to Wonder Woman
• Striking power - Edge to Vegeta
• Travel speed - Even (?)
• Combat speed - Even
• Agility/Avoidance - Slight edge to Vegeta
• Durability - Slight edge to Vegeta
• Endurance/Willpower - Edge to Vegeta
• Fighting skills - Even
• Versatility - Even (Wonder Woman's weaponry gives her a unique advantage)
• Tactical skill - Edge to Vegeta
• Stamina - Even
• Power - Large edge to Vegeta

Overall - While Wonder Woman is able to bridge the speed and skill gap that was Superman's downfall, she is unable to bring to the table the same amount of raw power that he provided. This battle is much closer than Goku vs Superman (which was already a close fight), but at the end of the day, the Saiyan Prince's slight advantage in raw power is going to mean that he will outlast the Princess of the Amazons sooner or later. On average, Vegeta punches slightly harder than Diana, and he can take significantly more punishment - without a speed or skill advantage to offset this, Wonder Woman can not defeat him. Her weaponry such as the sword, her tiara, the bracelets, and of course her lasso of truth are all going to be major obstacles in Vegeta's path to victory, but the super saiyan's prodigious strategic mind will be invaluable in overcoming them, and his insane damage output definitely makes up for any disadvantage. A casual ki blast will most likely injure Wonder Woman considerably, whereas a fully charged Final Flash can obliterate her, Superman, and Goku all at once. Vegeta regularly blasts outside of his weight class, blowing away characters such as Cell and Kid Buu despite monstrous power disadvantages, so a character like Wonder Woman whom he is on even physical ground with cannot stand up to him. In the end, Wonder Woman has no advantage strong enough to say she can put Vegeta down, before he puts her down.

Goku vs Wonder Woman and Vegeta vs Superman

We didn't discuss this scenario much, but I feel like my team still has the advantage, surprisingly thanks to Vegeta. Wonder Woman is a match for Goku's skill and martial arts, but the second he hits Super Saiyan 3 she's outclassed physically. It's really that simple concerning them, and I'll be honest and admit the same is true for Superman and Vegeta. However, since the Saiyan Prince can take a hit and endure damage so much better than Wonder Woman can, he'll stall Superman for longer than Wonder Woman will Goku, meaning it will become a 2-on-1 with Goku and some timely intervention from a defeated Vegeta winning the day (perhaps he'll launch one final ki blast with all his power before passing out. Such a thing could be the difference between victory and defeat)

Just one final note, even if you still think Superman and Wonder Woman are stronger, keep in mind Goku and Vegeta have a pretty good record of defeating foes stronger than them. While inside Buu's body, Goku battled against a projection of Ultimate Gohan while Vegeta took on Gotenks and Piccolo simultaneously (the projections had all of the originals' power and knowledge). Goku as a Super Saiyan 2 was able to battle against Gohan on even ground, countering and parrying all of his moves and even stalemating his Kamehameha. Gohan was about 100 times stronger than SSJ2 Goku, yet Kakarot's vastly superior technique allowed him to keep up. Meanwhile Vegeta was unable to injure Gotenks, so he instead took advantage of Piccolo's special beam cannon, dodging it and then blasting Piccolo so he couldn't change directions and making him hit Gotenks instead. A rather clever move.

As a team, Goku and Vegeta possess a remarkable level of synergy, something I don't think Superman and Wonder Woman come close to replicating. According to Old Kai the reason Vegito was so strong is actually because Goku and Vegeta were rivals, and their abilities complimented each other so well. While inside Buu, they were able to hold off and even temporarily destroy the bubblegum monster by using teamwork.

Teamwork is a major factor that shouldn't be overlooked.

Wonder Woman Gets The Power Pole Very Interesting. Lets See Where This Goes.

Great debate so far guys :) Tag me for votes

Tag me for votes :)

@nighthunder: Have you and Jashro had your debate yet?

@artyom: IM working on my post in word. it should be finished late today or late tmr

@nighthunder: Ok. Looking forward to that battle.

@pope052@tparks@xlr87t3@smxlr8@mlunny1121@vegandiet@jgames@kingant27@houseshm@cerberus369616@zhurong@darkbeam@ancient_0f_days@strangetales@blackice709@mortein@havoc_wreaker@shot@gustofwind@deathhero61@hunterzillas@jashro44@awesomedude@dianaxkal@kazuma_bushi@the_man_with_questions@detrolord@highaccuser@annoyedimmortalspirit@death_spear@spiderman1997@ganymedeofthemyscira@evil_incarnate@killerwasp@jgames@web_flotsam@super_trunks555@mlunny1121@marvelmaster300@lvenger@sycomantis91: @king1_icon@jgames@uugieboogie@etheral_dreams@parryboyNighThunder@neongamewave@oreoassassin@justthatkid@ultragreenboy@dondave@agent41Artyom

LAST TIME ON: C-A-V!

Pow! Nick Deliver's A Sucker Punch Filled With Feat's!

A Wave Of Awesomeness Hit's Our Audience!

How Will @the_man_with_questions Respond!?

Will Everyone I Tagged Come Back To This Thread?!

Find Out On This Episode Of C-A-V!

(Opening Theme Below)

@artyom: @nighthunder: @superlightning123: Guys you should wait until voting is open. They had to redo this already because of the clutter.

Ocean Dub intro's better

@gustofwind:

no.

Can't wait till voting, both cases are absolutely excellent.

Oh, dear. This is gonna be a super-awesome one, both the contestants are already throwing around scans in the first posts.

I'm seeing so many opinionated assumptions..

Good debate so far.

Sweet. I'll read this later when I get a chance.

Thanks for the tag. This will be my first time voting in a cav.

I'll have to catch up on the reading though, hopefully I can get through it after work today

@kazuma_bushi@reaverlation@oreoassassin@neongamewave@detrolord@dondave@ultragreenboy@justsomerandomkid@highaccuser@darkbeam@ancient_0f_days@super_trunks555@cerberus369616

We're ready for votes, anyone who's interested please take a read.

@the_man_with_questions It's a shame you couldn't continue, but I understand. This was one of my favorite debates, good game for now.

@kingant27@jgames@mlunny1121@vegandiet@blade_r@awesomedude@evil_incarnate@ximpossibrux@lukehero@boschepg@comicace@comicdude23@frozen@jedixman @strangetales: @tparks: @iragexcudder: @parryboy: @pope052: @gustofwind:@jashro44: @artyom: @nighthunder: @superlightning123:

@nickzambuto: I have to give it to Nick.

He had overall better debating and strategy, and I feel MWQ wasfighting an uphill battle the entire time, with nick being the controller here.

So my vote goes to you

@nighthunder: Thank you very much :)

gonna take me a minute to read through, it all looks good though guys.

Looks pretty solid. Both have some good arguments.

@nickzambuto:

Gonna give my vote to nickzambuto, I think he made some leaps in logic that wouldn't hold up under some more vigorous scrutiny but over all I think he controlled the debate.

Can you tell me specifically which leaps in logic you're referring to? Is it the Katchin feat?

Voting @nickzambuto for this one. Nick is one of the most impressive debaters I've ever seen at showing why his characters would win, and it was no exception in this CaV. Every single point was clear and concise, without seeming unbelievable at any point IMO. I am also convinced after reading this that Goku has a slight advantage in one on one fight with Supes, which I never really believed before this. I'm not really an anime/manga fan though, so maybe I'm getting sold a lemon here and he played into my ignorance, but I don't believe that to be the case at all. If a Jedi Mind Trick did fool my weak mind, then I highly encourage nickz to go become the best used cars salesman of all time.

@the_man_with_questions - You did a great job as well, and what you put together was probably enough to win most CaV's, but nickz just did a stellar job in this one. Nice work, and thanks for a fun read. :)

I tried my hardest not to vote for Goku and Vegeta ;P But still, @nickzambuto blew this out of the water. He displayed clearer knowledge over his guys and exactly what they're capable of throughout the use of great feats and well laid out overall points. He also managed to provide a surprisingly convincing case that Goku isn't exactly far off in the physical department compared to Superman, despite the fact that the Saiyan falls short either way, he really tightened the gap there and used feats that'd normally be overlooked. @the_man_with_questions made some solid points, and in my opinion he did much better on Wonder Woman's side of things than Superman's.

However, I didn't agree with some key points he mentioned, such as Superman and Diana getting a speed-blitz on the Saiyans and that they would be completely exceeding their sight as well, those were just two I flat out disagreed with, but wasn't too much of an issue. To sum it up shortly, Nick had better/convincing arguments, used significant feats, displayed his more well-versed mind on his team, and seemingly had a counter at the ready for practically anything his opponent said in response, Nick gets my vote :)

@pope052: @tparks: Thank you both for the compliments and detailed explanations.

Sure.

1. I've never been a fan of using named attacks or statements in DB to prove the lights peed aspect of the Z warriors. I also whole heartedly believe that the DB characters are lightspeed . It is hard to prove (not impossible by any means) but using the named aspects of attacks like Frieza's light containment ball or Gero's Photon beams is one that I think is much easier to poke full of holes. Granted you still provided hard evidence that a lot of attacks, dodged ones at that, are demonstrably faster than light.

2. yea the Katchin feat, lol.

3. Arguing that Blunt Damage resistance and Energy Damage resistance are equatable for Ki Attacks. A nice thought but I don't think it really holds water.

mostly nitpicks that I think could have been debated but you brought up adequate and separate showings to make your points in other ways and again I think you controlled the debate for the vast majority of it and pretty convincingly too, much better than I could have done to say the least.

i vote for @nickzambuto

i tried to remain as neutral as possible but i think his arguments were, overall, much stronger and he covered them more in dept... to the point where i learnt alot of new things about Dragonball that i didn't know before.

anyway good job, both, nice CAV

I Vote for nick

Nick Gets My Vote. I just love the way he debated for Goku. it just makes me smile that someone on this site besides Pope Cares about dbz and aren't biased against it. Its not always ''Feats Feats Feats!'' ''Feats Or it didn't happen.'' Both did Good. but at the end of the day, Goku Is My Guy. Team dbz was done justice. that's why Nick gets my vote

While I think I did pretty well with Goku, I'll admit my Vegeta is kind of lacking. I still don't have much experience debating him, so hopefully I'll get better sooner or later.

Nick gets my vote

Nick, one of the best defense of DBZ I've seen yet, bravo.s

My vote go to @nickzambuto:

@nickzambuto:

Goku Was represented well. so it didn't matter. but get good with vegeta though vegito would murder both anyway. ssj4 gogeta.... dc and marvel get stomp

@the_man_with_questions: @nickzambuto:

this was a good job. I had to reboot alot cuz my adobe player keeps crashing. That being said, I finally finished it and I give it to DBZ...and Im a comic guy too. TMWQ does a good job, especially with his low post count. Nickzambuto did show alot of feats and reasoning which I agreed with.

Actually, I thought the case you made for Vegeta was superb. It's easier to make a case for Goku, since he has a lot more feats to choose from and had better showings in battles more consistently than the Prince, so more often than not you'd almost always make a better case for Goku. Still, many feats you used for Vegeta drove the point home, especially how you detailed on his tactics and general skill being comparable enough to Diana's :)