CaV: Goku and Vegeta vs Superman and Wonder Woman

yeah mortein hence why i said pardon my intrusion

carry on :) and super lightning, hell yes i am son debate me on dbz topic i will teach u things man

@gustofwind Oh, I was saying that everyone knows that Superman would solo xD

If you say so :P

Everyone knows do they? What about the half dozen people who have said the exact opposite in this thread? Were they just lying?

@nickzambuto Woah Hostile territory! Warn me first before you provoke me. Anyways, i'm not going to be biased because of my own knowledge, i'm going to vote for who was the better debater.

Isn't the point of a CAV to try and convince people someone would win though? If the point of a CAV is purely to see who's better at arguing then why even make it about comic characters lol

@gustofwind From my experience, it is basically like that, but it is also about sportsmanship and who is better at executing and countering thus whoever is better at debating based on their own knowledge of their chosen character.

At the end, voters have to choose who did the best at defending the fight no matter what they think what character should of won. It's really a battle between the viners based on how much feats and comparisons they know. If someone lacks the knowledge of a feat off their character it would prove to be a disadvantage and would possible give them a defeat.

@the_man_with_questions: @nickzambuto:

Hey guys the people who we're trying to debate and say who wins in your cav shouldn't be allowed to vote because I don't think there going to vote on who's the better debater.Majority of them are going to vote on who they think wins and who they like more so you guys should probably think about that.

@nickzambuto:

This is an amazing thing to come home to since I was away as of the past week, i'll read through the entire thread later, and tag me for votes man :)

Brings back memories doesn't it mate? ;) I was wondering when you'd see this thread since it combines 2 debates you've done before into one. Plus the debaters seem to have interesting openers too.

Indeed mate, and yeah it does combine a duo of debates (pity me and Ancient never got to finish the Vegeta VS Wonder Woman one, though). But anyway, yeah I also think the openers look great, and the entire debate itself should be excellent ;)

@pope052: this is Gonna be awesome. Already got my Memes ready

@the_man_with_questions: Let me start with saying that the physical difference between Goku and Superman really isn't that big at all. I'd even say Goku has the advantage with Superman being more comparable to someone like Freeza. Let's recap,

Destroys Planet Vegeta with his finger.

Totally disintegrates Namek's core while, according to Goku, subconsciously holding back from fear.

Gallery

Uproots and tosses an island with just telekinesis.

Splits a planet in half with a wave of his hand.

Gallery

And numerous instances of tanking planetary-level attacks.

Gallery

Gallery

Just to be clear, it does take planetary level attacks to affect Freeza. Anything less is ineffective, seen when Goku kicked him through several whole islands and he just got up totally fine.

Gallery

Yet when Goku became a Super Saiyan he broke Freeza's hand with just his grip, tanked his attacks, and tossed him around with just telekinesis.

Gallery

Even at 100% power, not only were Freeza's best hits were totally ineffectual against Goku, but the Super Saiyan's fists were doing more damage than actual planet-destroying blasts.

Gallery

Gallery

In your post you just wrote off Freeza's durability as good against energy attacks and not blunt force, but can you actually prove that he handles the two types of damage differently? Ki blasts usually make their mark through concussive force and/or an explosion, which is basically blunt force anyway, so there's really no reason to believe that Goku's strikes aren't planet busting considering he's damaged characters with planet busting durability. This isn't even getting into Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, or Super Saiyan God.

Meanwhile there's the matter of speed.

None of that proved Goku is faster than light. As far as I'm concerned there just lasers and even Aquaman has blocked and avoided those. It would be better if you presented a more verifiable feat such as Goku dodging as laser from Earth to another planet. Then we obviously know the laser is faster than light.

Just wondering, do you know what a photon is? Photons are light, and the attack Goku dodged in that scan is Dr. Gero's photon ray. That's already enough to prove Goku is faster than light, and by extension, Vegeta as well considering Piccolo states Vegeta has become stronger than Goku in the next scene.

You want a more "verifiable" feat? I can bust out the scans of Kid Goku outrunning Tien's solar flare during the 22nd Budokai. The solar flare is a technique that flashes a bright beam of light to blind opponents; in this scene Goku sees the light, thinks of how to counter it, and easily races across the stadium to grab Master Roshi's glasses before it can reach him.

Gallery

Later on Yamcha references the incident and directly states that Goku moves at the speed of light.

This is made even more consistent by Piccolo claiming Raditz moves faster than the speed of light in the FUNimation dub after Raditz dodges the special beam cannon which moves at light speeds.

I can also bring up the time Kid Goku caught a dragon ball before it could spread across the earth, or his various laser dodging feats, but honestly I'm not going to make the case that Kid Goku was FTL. Even though it's technically consistent, that would just make the character way too powerful, even for my liking. Adult Goku is still faster than Superman, but I'll get into that later. For now, let me address the feats posted for Superman.

Striking Wonder Woman hard enough to send her plummeting into Earth from the Sun!

Very impressive, however Superman was under mind control at the time and thought Wonder Woman was Doomsday. He was borderline bloodlusted, whereas his morals are going to be a major hinderance in this scenario. Superman rarely if ever fights to his full strength, the fact is he won't be hitting Goku with a punch that powerful.

In a weakened state Superman lifts the weight of the Earth for five days

Not bad, however I believe Goku has the ability to lift a planet as well should he need to. During the Buu Saga, he easily tossed around a massive block of Katchin in his base form. Katchin is the hardest metal in the universe and therefore would be extremely dense as well. Consider this; Old Kai had the power to effortlessly destroy planets, and the Z-Sword had all of Old Kai's power. Now when the Z-Sword came in contact with the Katchin, it was immediately overpowered and snapped in half instantly. The Old Kai's power was not enough to scratch the Katchin, meaning the block was stronger than a planet and therefore equally as dense.

Some may say that's a stretch, but personally I think it makes perfect sense. Again, Old Kai > planets, Old Kai = Z-Sword, Z-Sword << Katchin, therefore Katchin >> planets.

Using his speed to vibrate fast enough so that he appeared invisible. However it does seem like Goku could potentially sense Superman. Never the less, this is still an impressive testimony of speed.

You're gonna have to do better than that, Goku could tap around fast enough to appear invisible when he was a kid.

Gallery

Here Superman is vibrating fast enough to phase through Doomsday's punches. Your team shouldn't really have a defense of counter for this.

Close enough.

He goes from Pluton to Earth in seconds. That's about six hundred times the speed of light.

I can't really read the scan, but regardless Superman's travel speed has never been his reaction speed. There are numerous comics that display this, Batman has even gone on record stating that Superman is Usain Bolt whereas Wonder Woman is Bruce Lee, when comparing their speed.

Then there's also this.

Green Lantern dilates things down to a second yet Superman can still move around in this time frame.

Impressive, but I believe I can counter this with a feat from the Saiyan Saga.

As you can see here, Goku states that the Kaio-Ken amplifies the users power, but only for the span of a single heartbeat.

Gallery

Yet in that time, Goku and Vegeta were able to have an entire fight sequence, with Vegeta taking the advantage.

Gallery

Later Goku uses the Kaio-Ken x3 and he and Vegeta have a fight that lasts the majority of the chapter. They exchange blows, throw ki blasts, get a bit of dialogue, Vegeta takes a minute to recover, throw more punches, etc etc all in the span of a single heartbeat.

Not entirely sure how to gauge this feat but impressive none the less

That statement was an exaggeration on Clark's part, it's been established that only Flash can react at the femtosecond range whereas Superman is in the nanosecond. Kinda like how a mother would yell at their child "you have half a second to put that down or else!" Obviously the mom can't do anything in half a second, it's a figure of speech. Superman was doing the exact same thing there.

Superman can see lightning in slow motion. I'm curious to know. Can Goku or Vegeta move faster than lightning?

Mr. Popo taught Goku how to move faster than lightning when he was a kid, and there was an episode where as part of his training, Goku had to wear a crown that attracted lightning straight to his head and he needed to dodge it.

Surviving the collision of New Genesis & Apocalypse

This knocked Superman out cold. Freeza survived Namek's destruction while cut in half with no energy left, and the explosion resulted in almost no additional damage. If Goku can injure Freeza at SSJ1, he can most definitely deal some heavy damage to Clark.

Survives a super nova

I'm not entirely impressed with a character surviving an explosion of the thing that empowers them. If anything Superman should have gotten stronger, I'm not surprised at all that he survived.

One thing that both of these durability feats have in common is that they both resulted in Superman losing consciousness. As impressive as the showings are, in this match that would result in Superman's loss, so they're really not entirely applicable. I need to see what Superman can endure BEFORE passing out. This is one area where I doubt Clark can match up to Goku. Even with a shattered body and only one limb left, he still found the power to defeat King Piccolo, a character so much vastly stronger than Goku at the time that he could break his bones by blowing rocks. Against Piccolo Jr. at the 23ed Budokai, Goku endured numerous grievous injuries, not the least of which being numerous broken bones, two shattered legs, his arm nearly being burned off, and a fist sized hole straight through his chest. Again, he found the strength to win. He was able to put Raditz in a full-nelson and hold him still through sheer force of will, despite currently having a shattered chest plate among numerous other injuries. If you look at the colored manga chapters, Goku is almost always completely riddled with painful contusions and cuts. Often times more blood will be visible than flesh.

How often is Superman reduced to such a state but continues fighting? Not often. It seriously takes the destruction of every bone in this guy's body just to keep him down. That's the only thing he wasn't able to will through, when Great Ape Vegeta crushed him. Everything else? Just scream louder and it's no problem.

In a battle of endurance, Superman will go down before Goku. This advantage can be a key factor in team DBZ's victory.

The last thing I want to discuss before moving onto Vegeta vs Wonder Woman is the matter of Clark's combat skill. First of all, if I read correctly, the two Torquasm styles don't teach fighting techniques, they're more about meditation and "resisting mental domination" or something to that effect. I know Clark has been trained by Wildcat, Batman, and Wonder Woman, but Goku was trained by gods. Seriously, it's not even a comparison. I'm sorry, but there can be no argument for Superman keeping up with Goku's martial arts. I'm not undermining Superman's skill, I'm just being honest. In the DC universe, Superman is a bottom-tier fighter. The extent of his skill is defeating Ultraman, a spoiled, inexperienced punk, and some nameless Kryptonian soldier who was nothing more than fodder. He can't even take multiple fodder, just one at a time. You seriously think such a foe would be a challenge to Goku? Someone who he is on COMPLETELY even physical ground with, and has zero combat skill? No, Goku would eat a fighter like that for breakfast. Even as a child, before training with Kami or King Kai, Goku was able to humiliate King Piccolo with his martial arts. King Piccolo, the centuries old grandmaster martial artist, who happened to be far stronger than Goku as well.

Piccolo waves his hand and creates a wind strong enough to nearly knock Goku off his feet, and he blows rocks hard enough to break Goku's bones. He's like, 100 times stronger than the kid.

I can't post the full fight because it's 3-4 chapters long, but here's a link if you want to read it yourself. Goku is able to more or less manhandle Piccolo by anticipating his attacks and precision striking bodily weak points. He counters the demon king's versatile powerset with various tactics, redirecting his Kamehameha wave and using the power pole as a launcher among other things. If Superman and Piccolo were at equal power levels, Clark would get slaughtered, let alone if Piccolo maintained his strength to knock Clark back by waving his hand or break his bones by blowing rocks, as he was against Goku.

Superman and Goku's martial arts skills really aren't comparable at all, Clark might as well not have any training in this fight.

I'll make another post going over Vegeta against Wonder Woman.

@nickzambuto: and with that you have automatically won.

i vote you!!

(haha just kidding, but you bringed very excellent points for now, even things i didn't knew/forgot about Goku, goodjob!)

@nickzambuto: EXCELLENT! I would post a meme. But I'm on mobile. Go Nick!

You Will All Finally Realize The Power Of The Saiyans! Goku rules!

The black to Gold hair boys win. Just got to say it NICE ASS WW

@the_man_with_questions:

Wonder Woman is definitely the second strongest of the teams here. (Luckily I have both of the physical power houses here.) She has some decent strength and striking feats to verify this.

Such confidence! However, I'm going to have to disagree with you there pretty strongly. Wonder Woman seems like a massive weak link to me, her strength isn't anything compared to Superman's, she only ever hangs with him thanks to being faster and infinitely more skilled, neither of which apply against Vegeta. The Saiyan Prince packs more than enough punch to down her after awhile, and his ludicrous damage soak should ensure that he remains the last man standing when the dust settles. Let me get straight into it and start comparing Diana's feats to Vegeta's.

Striking Batman with Superman's powers into the moon leaving a decent sized crater

The vacuum of space provides zero resistance to an object in motion, and considering they weren't very far from the moon anyway, I'm going to have to say a punch like this won't seriously affect Vegeta. After all, the crater wasn't very big and Batman was pretty much unfazed afterwards, so let's not act like Diana can oneshot Vegeta here. He's taken heavier hits in far weaker forms and come out just fine. Back during the Namek Arc, Vegeta took an absolutely brutal beating from Zarbon but managed to keep fighting till the very end. Multiple bones were broken, he got blown up, and the force of their punches created shockwaves that shattered a small mountain miles away. Zarbon ended up piledriving Vegeta into the dirt headfirst all the way from the lower atmosphere, with the resulting crash forming a large canyon.

In the Namek Saga, Vegeta endured a serious beating from Zarbon. The beast put Vegeta through a small mountain, and their punches created shockwaves powerful enough to shatter another small mountain miles away. Zarbon ended the fight by piledriving Vegeta headfirst into the dirt all the way from the lower atmosphere, with the resulting crash forming a large canyon.

Now consider the fact that by the end of the Namek Saga, Vegeta had grown strong enough that he wouldn't even notice these attacks. And then add nearly two decades of training and two Super Saiyan transformations, and Vegeta is quite literally in an entirely different dimension from what he did here. At his very best, he was even able to tank a punch from Beerus and briefly overpower him, and Beerus is a helluva lot stronger than Wonder Woman.

Granted, Vegeta most likely wouldn't reach this level of rage during a fight against Wonder Woman, but it's still worth considering.

Lifting a large air craft

That's really a Saiyan Saga feat, it has no place here when we're debating powerhouse level characters. Great Ape Gohan easily lifted a similarly sized boulder over his head, and Vegeta even while half dead was more than a match for him.

Vegeta tanks, dodges, and hurts Oozaru, despite a large amount of the bones in his body currently being broken. Going by power levels, Vegeta was actually physically stronger than Oozaru at this time, his injuries simply hindered him.

During the Namek Saga, Vegeta was able to toss Recoome miles across the planet and then through a mountain. That's gotta be at least in league with lifting the aircraft carrier.

While I'm on the subject, let me address Wonder Woman's durability.

Superman punches Wonder Woman hard enough to send her plummeting into Earth from the Sun!

To be fair, that punch made Wonder Woman black out for an instant, and afterwards she was praying to the gods for help. She clearly can't take more than a few punches like that before she drops, and even though Vegeta can't quite replicate that amount of power exactly, he comes close enough to drop Wonder Woman eventually. Being far above Super Saiyan level, Vegeta has no problem dominating characters with planetary level durability, nor does he have trouble tanking hits of a similar caliber.

Gallery

Gallery

Here's a striking feat I don't think Wonder Woman should take lightly -- with a casual elbow Vegeta uses Cell's body to split an island in half, and sends him across miles and miles of ocean despite water resistance, and finally through another island. He then laughs and says "All too easy", meaning that's not even the extent of his Ascended Super Saiyan power.

At Super Saiyan 2, Vegeta undoubtedly has the power to rock Wonder Woman's world. If the aforementioned feat of drawing blood from Bills isn't enough, just by waving his hand Vegeta created a wind strong enough to knock Gohan to the ground.

Gohan even at base is incredibly strong. Fusion Reborn isn't entirely canon, but it's worth mentioning that he was able to completely obliterate Freeza with a single punch.

And yet a wave of Vegeta's hand had him on the ground. Can you imagine if that motion actually connected with someone rather than just being used to make a wind? The damage would be astronomical, more than enough to give Diana her second wind.

The nuke feat, like the aircraft carrier, is not very impressive. I don't know why you were so confident about Diana's power so grossly outranking Goku and Vegeta's if that's the best she has; nukes are midtier, again these are powerhouses we're debating. Vegeta could tank a planet busting beam back during the Saiyan Saga in Goku's Kaio-Ken x4 Kamehameha, let alone a nuclear bomb. A nuke is a King Piccolo level feat. I'm pretty confident Vegeta is more durable than Wonder Woman given the atrocious beatings he's had to endure throughout the series, not the least of which being three separate, consecutive battles against KID BUU at the very end of the series.

The dude's like a zombie, he just refuses to die.

To recap, Vegeta has more than enough strength to potentially bring Wonder Woman down, and given his crazy durability even by DBZ standards, he will surely live up to that potential. That leaves the only remaining matter as speed.

Keeping up with the entire Justice League while blind fold.

This is hardly a speed feat, she's clearly overpowering the League, nobody is using any speed. Considering Manhunter and Flash are the only two worthwhile characters fighting her in that scene, and they are both known to hold back tremendously, it really doesn't say anything about her speed.

Keeping up with Jessie Quick

Jessie Quick doesn't exactly set the bar when it comes to speedsters. Another midtier feat.

There are probably hundreds of instances of Wonder Woman blocking bullets

Oh come on you can do better than that.

You want speed? How about Super Buu firing billions of ki blasts that travel all the way around the world killing every single human being on the planet with perfect accuracy in a matter of minutes?

The blasts can travel across the planet almost immediately and towards the end of the video you see them going out into space; pretty dang fast, and this is base Super Buu. After absorbing Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Gohan, his power more than doubled, and yet Goku and Vegeta were skillful enough to evade all of his attacks for an extended period of time.

As for Wonder Woman's level of skill, she's certainly more of a threat than Superman, but I wonder, was she depowered during her sparring matches with Batman? If not... well, that really wouldn't say anything for her level of skill.

Being trained by Ares is pretty good, but you say that as if Goku hasn't been trained by multiple gods and Vegeta hasn't matched him on multiple occasions. During Battle of Gods, even before becoming enraged Vegeta was able to put up somewhat of a fight against Beerus thanks to his combat skill. That alone is already a tough feat to match considering Beerus sh!tstomped Ultimate Gohan and Majin Buu at the same time, as well as Gotenks and the rest of the Z Fighters using a pair of chopsticks and pressure points, yet he praised Vegeta's skill.

1:40

What about Vegeta?

@nickzambuto:

I'll start by addressing Goku vs. Superman. First off, nothing you've presented makes it appear that Goku is anywhere near as strong as Superman. Stopping a few boulders and lifting a few rocks does not equate to lifting the Earth for five days in a weakened state.

I'd also like something more verifiable then the Katchin feat. I'd like to see Goku lifting a planet, not him lifting something that might weigh as much as one. Not only that, but you'd think something as heavy as the Katchin would just sink Goku into the ground or when thrown to the ground it would've sunken in.

Now lets talk speed. So I guess Goku is faster than light. How much faster? Just faster. (Even though normal humans can some how verify this.) However nothing you've provide makes him faster than Superman. Not only that but some of the feats you've provided aren't even verifiable.How long did the fight last when Goku & Vegeta fought in under the span of one heart beat? Was it nanoseconds? Not sure so I'm going to need you to verify.

I'm also not to fond of you low-balling Superman by posting scans of him failing to catch bullets. I mean come on. I've shown scans of him walking around in a nanosecond time frame and moving six hundred times the speed of light and yet you post a scan of him failing to catch bullets. Alright.

Now lets talk about Frezia. Superman is in no way comparable to Frezia. Smarter, faster, stronger, and few other miscellaneous things that seal the deal. I'd also like to note that Frezia's father saying that it would take more than the destruction of a planet to put him down isn't really verifiable and that just because he survived the destruction of a planet doesn't mean Goku was hitting for planet striking punches.

Now lets bring up some of the feats I posted and that you countered. First off, I'm going to go ahead and say fair points of the picosecond thing. Next, fair points once again for the super nova feat. Then there's the planet collision feat. I'm really starting to believe that your undermining Superman. He was ONLY knocked out by the collision of two planets yet Frezia has better durability by surviving the destruction while weakened. It's up to voters to decide but I personally think Superman has better durability showings. (Now can we move on from Frezia and actually discuss the characters in the debate?)

And finally addressing the striking feat. Now this situation is a little bizarre don't you think? Morals on but are characters have to kill each other? I don't see how that's going to work out. I mean why would are guys even fight if that was the case? Just saying. Anyway, Superman has plenty of other striking feats. Punching H'el so hard that it shook the Earth and was felt from space as well as a more casual feat of him punching Mongol out to sea and shattering every widow across the Gotham seaboard. (I'll insert these feats later.)

As for endurance, like I said, Superman has lifted the weight of the Earth for five days and Every one should know about the Death of Superman, where Superman basically stalemated a guy who was embarrassing the rest of the Justice League and it resulted in both of their deaths. Superman can easily last this battle out.

Finally, I never said Superman was a fighting genius. All I said was that you were under estimating his fighting skills when he in facts has feats of him taking out entire gangs of thugs.

Anyway, I'll be utilizing a second post for the Wonder Woman stuff.

Tag for voting please.

Don't know how to delete my comment.

@sycomantis91: @ganymedeofthemyscira: Delete your posts or get flagged. You're not part of the debate, only the votes.

Killerwasp Web_Flotsam @lvenger @king1_icon @jgames @uugieboogie Etheral_Dreams Parryboy NighThunder tparks Evil Incarnate @sycomantis91: @ganymedeofthemyscira Spiderman1997 Death_Spear AnnoyedImmortalSpirit highaccuser @detrolord @kazuma_bushi @the_man_with_questions @super_trunks555: @mlunny1121: Ultragreenboy Justthatkid OreoAssassin NeonGameWave houseshm dondave @agent41 @vegandiet @blade_r @jashro44 Evil Detrolord JustSomeRandomKid Incarnate DianaXKal Awesomedude jashro44 @marvelmaster300: XLR87T3 SMXLR8 mlunny1121VeganDiet Jgames Kingant27 Cerberus369616 houseshm ZhuRong darkbeam Ancient_0f_Days strangetales Blackice709 Mortein @havoc_wreaker @shot Gustofwind DeathHero61 hunterzillas @pope052:

HOW HEATED WILL THIS BATTLE GET?!?

WILL NICK STAY IN THE LEAGUE?!?

WILL THIS BATTLE BE TOO AWESOME FOR THE INTERNET TO HANDLE?!?

ENDING THEME!

@the_man_with_questions:

@nickzambuto:

Hay Nick, do you mind copy and pasting are arguments into a different thread? This thread has obviously been derailed and even I'm having a hard time distinguishing post.

Voting open? give me an hr

@the_man_with_questions:

Hey is it time for voting? I noticed you tagged me but I wasn't sure if its time yet?

@blade_r:

I did? No, its not time for voting.

@nickzambuto@the_man_with_questions wait let me clarify is it really time for voting i think this is not even done yet? if so we have a clear winner i think round 2 haven't even ended yet

@superlightning123

LOL alright, sure. I'll make another thread and this time CLEARLY STATE IN THE OP that nobody should comment, and tag you in it.

Lol whoops, I meant @superlightning123, he tagged me, by bad.

Tag for votes please

Goku win cuz he much stronger and never dies compar to superman who is weak an pussy. Goku destrey planet and superman cannot! also GOKU would becuz we all KNOW saiyans are mor powerful then mens and superman is puny man and GOKU can go to SSJG form. GOKU rips superman in half and fly away cuz he strong!

@god_spawn, @saren, & @sc may one of you pease lock this? This thread has been derailed as people tried to use it as some excuse to debate Dragon Ball Z.

What's with the bias against Dragon Ball? Plenty of people who disregarded the CAV were saying Superman and WW would win, please don't try and pen this on the DBZ fans because the majority of them were at least being more respectful in their posts whereas the DC supporters called it a stomp.

@nickzambuto:

It's not that, it's that you aren't specifically suppose to debate Dragon Ball.

@dbz4lyfe said:

(Sigh)

@blade_r: I just made that meme for a joke. I don't understand his you mixed that up with voting. Only the debaters tag. It took a long time to get everyone's name...@nickzambuto: I agree

@the_man_with_questions: don't lock this thread just because there are a few bad apples

@pope052: lol!

Well I wasn't the only one who got confused

See lol, im not the only one who was confused

Team 2.

Haha damn this guy straight up made a thread like this. No F@#ks given.

Kal needs a better partner with better durability. Black Adam or Captain Marvel are clearly better choices than Wondy. This fight just can be decide only one way. And I have the answer. I will not tell anyone.

@superlightning123: feel left out

@dbz4lyfe: that's why this site hates dragon ball. @nefarious: no. Fusion is the answer @symbiotesaiyan: oh, sorry! I'll tag you next time.

@master-danny: not really because none of the characters in this battle and the ones you mentioned have planetary durability,they are hurt by less in 90% of all their showings,by consistent showings WW is in the same durability class than everybody else here.