#1 Edited by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio
Hulk (Savage)
Aquaman (New 52)

Rules

  • Random encounter
  • In Character
  • Morals On
  • Standard Gear
  • Starting distance of 50 yards, in sight of one another
  • Battle takes place in an abandoned city with moderate rainfall
  • Victory by incapacitatation, KO or Death.
#2 Posted by Wolverine08 (39037 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Edited by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

@godtriggerhulk I think that is everyone we covered. Let me know if it needs changes.

I don't care who goes first, as said though, I'm heading out tonight so I probably won't be able to make a post until tomorrow morning (maybe late tonight)

@wolverine08 said:

I haven't seen you in a CaV before @fallschirmjager! This should be dope!

I'm popping my cherry :D

#4 Edited by GodTriggerHulk (1998 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager:

Awesome sauce, I'll see how the rest of my work for tonight pans out. Also thank you for picking an Ed McGuiness Hulk drawing.

#5 Posted by Deathstroke19 (3799 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager: good luck to both of you. This should be very interesting for me as i only have very basic knowledge on both characters.

#7 Edited by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

Intro

Aquaman, aka Arthur Curry, King of Atlantis and a founding member of the Justice League. Although once thought of as a joke (perhaps still to some degree) he is anything but. The New 52 has been good to Aquaman - although he doesn't quite yet have the flexibility as his Pre-52 self (notably in the telepathy and magical departments) his physical stats are as high as ever. He is mentioned along the likes of Wonder Woman and Superman as being one of the strongest beings on DC Earth.

Justice League of America #8

Strength

Although lacking in quantity, Aquaman certaintly does not for quality in the strength department in feat showings. And although Hulk certainly has the potential to become stronger, Aquaman should definitely be much stronger to begin the fight, which means a quick ending favors him.

Scan 1) Aquaman throws a bus at Ocean Master. Given that it is yellow, its safe to assume it is a school bus. Your standard school bus weights 10-15 tons.

Scan 2) One of Aquaman's most impressive feats so far in the New 52, as he lifts up an ocean liner / cruise ship - quite casually if I might add, given the expression on his face. More impressive is that, although wet, he is not underwater. The weight of ships vary ship by model, but can easily exceed 100,000 tons.

Scan 4) Aquaman pulls a ship through a storm, likely several hundred or thousand tons.

Scans 4-5) Aquaman throws a submerged submarine to the surface of the ocean. Although it again varies depending on the submarine, the most common type is an attack submarine. The US Los Angeles Class attack submarines weights nearly 7000 tons submerged. On the off chance the submarine is a ballistic submarine (US Ohio-Class) in can weight nearly 19,000 tons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles-class_submarine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio-class_submarine

Scans 6-8) Another iconic moment in the New 52, in which Aquaman attacks Batman, Superman and Wonder Women. Although vague in terms of tonnage, Aquaman clearly has the strength to punch Superman hard enough to go flying off screen and the strength to go toe to toe with Wonder Women (who herself has feats in the 100,000's). He even takes a direct punch from WW on the jaw and only has a bloody lip which speaks to his durability.

Scan 9) Perhaps his greatest strength feat, Aquaman collapses the under water canyon known as the Trench, where the Trench monsters live. Although impossible to quantify without knowing the exact size and type of rock, its possible that the feat could exceed millions of tons. If anything, it merely solidifies his other more quantifiable feats such as lifting the Ocean Liner and fighting Wonder Woman.

Scan 10) Aquaman throws another ship at the dead king, this time submerged on the ocean floor.

Overall, I think its safe to say Aquaman has the strength to deal with base Hulk and probably will have a good advantage over him unless the fight drags on too long.

Speed

Perhaps one of the most underrated aspects of Aquaman's arsenal is the fact that he's quite fast, both on land on water. Although lacking flight capabilities, Aquaman - similar to Hulk - possess quite powerful super leaps that he has used for both travel and combat purposes.

Although most of his jumps are hard to quantify, one in particular can give us a vague idea of his leaping speed.

Scan 1) We see a robbery in place, some where in the middle of Boston, with police chasing. We see a blur crash down in front of the car.

Scan 2) Aquaman is revealed to be the blur.

Scan 3) After stopping the robbers, Aquaman reveals he had heard the sirens from the harbor. Although hard to say exactly where the robbery was occurring, we know that Aquaman came from Boston harbor, which is nearly 50 square miles in size. Since we see no water in the images, its safe to say the robbery is not taking place near the harbor, which means Aquaman covered several miles to intercept them. This puts his jumping speed at least super and hypersonic levels.

Scan 4) We see Aquaman instantly jump several hundred feet in the air and several blocks away.

Although not relevant to this fight, Aquaman's swimming speed is confirmed hyper sonic as he beats The Operative's jet to the Island where Black Manta is. The Operative's jet is stated to be hyper sonic. Swimming speed and land speed are obviously vary different, but if its within his capability to be hyper sonic on one, it shouldn't be far fetched to assume he is on both. Especially considering the energy needed to move through water is significantly more than the energy needed to it on land / in air.

Scan 1) Ya'wara stating Aquaman will beat them to the Island (he later arrives much earlier than they do)

Scan 2) Operative's jet stated as hypersonic

Scan 3) Aquaman jumping off the plane and swimming

(sorry these a bit out of order)

By no means do I think speed will be a huge factor in this fight, but Aquaman may get in a surprise hit or two using his powerful jumps. It will at least enough to equal Hulk's should they decide to jump around for some reason, lol

Durability

Aquaman's durability is interesting in the New 52 and fairly consistent if I might add. He has thus far shown very high durability to blunt force attacks and explosions, but seems to have a problem with piercing weapons.

Scans 1-3) We see Aquaman survive a plane, at altitude explode and his subsequent fall from altitude. Although he has an Atlantean spear in his leg (piercing weapons, he is otherwise fine.

Scans 4-5) Black Manta hits Aquaman twice with his laser blasts and he shrugs them only with only minor burns (they are heat based)

Scan 6) Martian Manhunter, disguised as Mera, sucker punches Aquaman and he is fine. This makes two very high leveled beings who's punched him and have not done any significant damage (remember the WW scan from above?)

Scans 7-8) Aquaman shrugs off an underwater explosion right in his face and is fine.

Perhaps another underrated part of Aquaman's arsenal is his super healing.

Scan 1) A trench monster bites his shoulder (again, problems with piercing attacks)

Scan 2) Moments later the Trench monsters are retreating. We clearly can see in the background that the sun is about to set.

Scan 3) Its night time when Aquaman (and Mera) arrive at Mr Shin's and Aquaman's wound is mostly healed (looks raw). Given the time frame we can assume this took place within minutes. Perhaps up to 15. Worth noting is that this all takes place on land, with no scans of Aquaman going to water.

Scan 4) Mr Shin also informs us, that the Trench monsters are poisonous. Aquaman had not felt its effects, which further speaks to his healing factor.

Scan 5) Aquaman is again bitten (sharp objects!)

Scan 6) Moment later (only a page or two), as Aquaman collapses the trench, his wound is completely healed. This likely only took seconds. (they are completely underwater in these scenes)

Scans 7-8) Aquaman takes a punch from the Dead King and is unharmed. Fights back and shatters his ice constructs

Scans 9-10) Aquaman is stabbed in several places by the Dead King's ice constructs (noticed the piercing theme yet? :P)

Scans 11-13) Aquaman heals almost immediately (its a bit of a vague shot but he appears to be nearly healed in Scan 11) and by the next two pages is completely healed. Again this healing likely took place in seconds - and again they are deep under water.

Overall Aquaman seems to have a very strong durability against blunt force and explosion type attacks (in addition to poison prevention, should Hulk's gamma radiation come into play). Although he seems to struggle with piercing attacks.

His healing factor appears to range from minutes, dry on land, to seconds deep under water. Given that it is raining his healing factor should be fairly powerful in this fight. Combined with his durability against blunt force attacks Aquaman should have no trouble tanking hits from Hulk.

Trident

In my opinion Aquaman's Trident is his single greatest advantage in this fight. It is both his go to weapon and attack of choice and proven to be very powerful. It has been stated to be indestructible.

In these scans we see Aquaman dispatching various fodder monsters with his Trident. Although not necessarily quality opponents it shows Aquaman's reliance on his Trident and his preferred method of attacking. As you can see, although he is by no means a killer, he has no aversion to killing them either.

Much more impressive however, is what Aquaman was able to do to Darkseid with his Trident. No less than three times does Aquaman stab him, once in the faces/eyes and twice in the chest. It pierces his armor with perhaps mild effort and draws what I believe is Darkseid "evil energy" or blood.

No other member of the JLA had done this, including Superman who had hit Darkseid with a FTL punch/charge attack.

His Trident should have no problems getting through Hulk and inflicting serious damage on him.

Hope I didn't go overboard with my opening argument haha. Go easy on me, its my first time! :D

#8 Posted by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager: Even though we've had our differences, this could be interesting.

#10 Edited by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: I just wish I had more feats - lol. I used over half of my scans in that post alone.

#11 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager: I made a thread about CaV debating, it's pinned down in the battle boards, you should check it out if this is your first time in CaV. Just my 2 cents :)

#12 Posted by Wolverine08 (39037 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager: Meh, as long as you can present a good argument and counter your opponents points well, scans are more of an icing on the cake.

#13 Posted by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Keep that in mind ;)

@ghostravage: Yeah. I did. Thanks. I probably went over board, I just wanted to emphasize consistency.

#14 Posted by batmannflash (6192 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to be good!

#15 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager: I'll give you a constructive critic at the end if you want to, i don't know your impression about me so i don't know if you'll take it into account. :)

#16 Posted by ForeverEvil (4788 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager: dont forget in Aquaman Annual #1 he also blocked the powerful magical attacks of Morgaine Le Fay with his trident. Thats probably its best feat thus yet(thru only 24 issues) id upload the scans for you but my internet is slow

#17 Posted by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Posted by ForeverEvil (4788 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Posted by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager: I haven't always agreed with your New 52 Aquaman analysis on the battle forums but it should be very interesting to see how you handle his use in a debate like this against the Hulk. I used New 52 Aquaman myself against Extremis Iron Man in another debate so I know he's quite the heavy hitter. Good luck on this debate!

#20 Posted by Deathstroke19 (3799 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Edited by GodTriggerHulk (1998 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager:

From dust I am reborn! But yeah seriously sorry to be tardy to the party.

Strength:

Aquaman is certainly no pushover in terms of strength, however he is outclassed here, plain and simple. The Hulk is world famous for his incredible superhuman strength.

This one is fairly self-explanatory; The Hulk can strike with enough force to bust through a nuclear bunker, in this case one strong enough to withstand an explosion in the thousand-megaton range.

The Hulk's blows are so powerful that they are capable of reducing an entire city to rubble.

Here just one of Hulk's blows is enough to shake the Rockies.

So powerful is The Hulk that he doesn't even need to touch his foes to defeat them. This principle is no better expressed than through The Hulk's use of the thunderclap.

Just one thunderclap from The Hulk KO's Red Hulk, the very same Red Hulk who no-sold blows from Mjolnir.

Hitting harder than a nuke, crushing an entire city, shaking the very mountains and bringing down mighty warriors with a round of applause is the league that Hulk's in.

And when one considers this...

Getting hurt by a bullet isn't a good thing to have on your resume when your foe can easily hit with the aggregate force of a nuclear bomb.

I'll do Hulk's durability and reaction time in a bit.

#22 Posted by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

@godtriggerhulk: it may be a bit until i can respond. i've been traveling for the hollidays and im leaving again this weekend, won't be back until next week.

i also have another cav to do.

just heads up

#23 Posted by Wolverine08 (39037 posts) - - Show Bio

This came back from the dead, huh?

#24 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

This came back from the dead, huh?

Indeed.

@godtriggerhulk I know i should wait till the end, but watch the format mate :)

#25 Posted by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

turns out I'm not leaving till Monday, so here we go @godtriggerhulk

Aquaman is certainly no pushover in terms of strength, however he is outclassed here, plain and simple. The Hulk is world famous for his incredible superhuman strength.

I'm afraid I'm going to whole heartily disagree about being outclassed.

Exhibit A:

What we are seeing here is The Dead King blowing up and sinking Atlantis. Now, please note the 3rd scan in which Atlantis is referred to as a collective of 7 Kingdoms. This means this quite possibly a multi-country level destruction feat taking place, with 4 being destroyed outright and 3 surviving (Xebel, Atlantis, Trench).

Now I would say that would be a high end estimate for the feat, but its certainly within the possibly. Personally I think its more of an large-island level event, given that Atlantis is located in the middle of the ocean prior to its destruction as shown here:

Now why is all this important? Because Aquaman stopped this attack in his bare hands, and didn't even flinch. Its hard to put a number on the force required to destroy something like this, but this is a massive showing of both strength and durability on Aquaman's part.

(Also ignore the blood, its from a separate attack and its in the process of healing anyway - healed on the next page)

So once again. I'm going to have to completely disagree about Aquaman being outclassed in strength. He's consistently been portrayed as once of the strongest beings on DC Earth and to my knowledge is only 2nd in terms of actual feats to Superman (who has "bench pressed" the Earth)

Just one thunderclap from The Hulk KO's Red Hulk, the very same Red Hulk who no-sold blows from Mjolnir.

This is ABC logic. Thor especially is known for someone who can hold back, so unless there's clear evidence of him being anything close to "bloodlusted" there's no way to compare the two feats in power.

Getting hurt by a bullet isn't a good thing to have on your resume when your foe can easily hit with the aggregate force of a nuclear bomb.

I'm sorry, but this statement is completely void of any context as is that scan. That scan is Page 8 of issue #1 of New 52 Aquaman. It is literally his lowest showing from the first issue. Calling his durability poor because of this is lowballing at best.

Take a look at this for example:

That is a direct hit from Diana on the jaw. Aquaman goes flying through a boat and is bleeding on the lip in more or less the amount as when he got nicked by the bullet. There is simply no way the two feats would have produced a similar amount of damage. Diana should have obliterated Aquaman if his durability was as poor as the other scan indicates. Unless you're going to claim Diana hits with the force of a small arms gun...

Its simply a very low showing from the very first issue of his Post-Flashpoint version. Its in no way the norm for his durability as shown. Arthur is not only fully capable of duking it out with Diana, but as mentioned earlier he stopped an island (possibly country) level attack in his bare hands and didn't even flinch. His durability is by no means poor.

If we're going to consider that scan a legitimate durability feat against Aquaman then we should also use these against Hulk. Iron Man and Doc Samson KO him with one punch.

In which case Aquaman could easily do the same.

In reality these are nothing but very low showings.

Your move.

#26 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me when this is done... I already have my quarrels.

#27 Posted by i_like_swords (13314 posts) - - Show Bio

Gradually edging towards buying some New 52 Aquaman..

#28 Posted by AllStarSuperman (20384 posts) - - Show Bio

dis gunna b gud

#29 Edited by GodTriggerHulk (1998 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager:

In regard to Aquaman being punched by Wonder Woman, it's important to keep in mind that this is New 52 Wonder Woman. And for better or worse DC hasn't given her nearly the same level of power she had pre-Flashpoint. In regard to your question as to whether I thing Wonder Woman's blows are equal to machine-gun fire the answer is of course no. That being said WW wouldn't have been using her full strength, seeing as how Aquaman had been her comrade for 6 years.

Speaking of holding back it's important to note that Thor was not holding back when he hit Red Hulk, he even says "It matters little... Since by morning's light, thou wilt be dead!"

#30 Edited by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

@godtriggerhulk said:

@fallschirmjager:

In regard to Aquaman being punched by Wonder Woman, it's important to keep in mind that this is New 52 Wonder Woman. And for better or worse DC hasn't given her nearly the same level of power she had pre-Flashpoint. In regard to your question as to whether I thing Wonder Woman's blows are equal to machine-gun fire the answer is of course no. That being said WW wouldn't have been using her full strength, seeing as how Aquaman had been her comrade for 6 years.

Speaking of holding back it's important to note that Thor was not holding back when he hit Red Hulk, he even says "It matters little... Since by morning's light, thou wilt be dead!"

She is still quite powerful.

And she wasn't holding back. She isn't a character that holds back. This is her kicking Superman and drawing blood.

And she and Superman later start dating. And what they were arguing about was something far less serious than an invasion.

The Justice League has gotten into fights with each other before. Its almost normal for them to do it in the New 52.

This is the full sequence of events.

They're arguing with each other straight up. Aquaman puts his hands on Batman's throat and Batman tries to blow up Aquaman and Orm.

Aquaman than blows by Batman and Wonder Woman and decks Superman. Then he overpowers Diana and has his hands on her throat.

She wasn't even close to holding back when she counter attacks him. Not when he's attacking her like that. Not when she's got her lasso around his throat. And Aquaman wasn't holding back either.

So again. Aquaman is absolutely a high tier character.

#31 Posted by KaijuKingGojira (1400 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm. I always wanted to see Fallschirmjager do one of these.

#32 Posted by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

@godtriggerhulk: I don't know if you plan on continuing but I'm starting a new job tomorrow and will basically have very little time going forward.

do you just want to cancel this?

#33 Posted by Chibi_cute (4489 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Posted by Fallschirmjager (15388 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Posted by Chibi_cute (4489 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Posted by mikep12 (4142 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol doing the same cav it's wierd looking at this one and mine

#37 Posted by GodTriggerHulk (1998 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by Bernomancy (24 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman is a threat anywhere and his trident has pierced Darkseid that would leave the Hulk vulnerable as well . Aquaman wins.