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#1 Edited by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

Robert Kirkman's Invincible vs Pak's Incredible Hulk.

  • In Character.
  • Death or KO.
  • Start 100 feet apart.
  • Battle in New York.

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#2 Posted by Wolverine08 (26713 posts) - - Show Bio

Should be interesting.

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#3 Edited by Pr0metheus (3189 posts) - - Show Bio

You did this just so you could post that picture didn't you?

#4 Posted by Experio (8339 posts) - - Show Bio

I already know who I'm rooting for

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#5 Posted by dondave (26831 posts) - - Show Bio

That picture of Hulk is terrible

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#6 Posted by Cjdavis103 (7085 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

That picture of Hulk is terrible

this

#7 Posted by Phoenixgeist (3676 posts) - - Show Bio

Goodluck

#8 Edited by Wolverine08 (26713 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

That picture of Hulk is terrible

LOL.

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#9 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

That picture of Hulk is terrible

I been on a role lately with that lol.

You did this just so you could post that picture didn't you?

Maybe.

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#10 Edited by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage I will start this off by explaining how strong Invincible really is. I will not say strength alone will beat Hulk, but it helps to trade blows for awhile.

Invincible has strength to re arrange mountains.

He can crater city size area like on the moon here.

He also hits with enough force to average around Hulk's own Thunderclaps.

Invincible is very strong, in the 100,000+ tons. He is also very durable.

He easily shrugs off neighborhood busting explosions.

Here Invincible fights a army of 5+ Mauler Twins, a dimensional explosion ensues, and the entire army of super durable Mauler twins is ashed, but Mark is fine.

One of the best things about Mark is his minor healing factor that alows him to fight on with wounds that kill anyone else outright.

Point is even early (and much weaker) Invincible was Iron Man level. Current one is way to much for Hulk to tackle thanks to super high tier stats combined with Mark's massively hyper sonic speed. Mark is also a smart fighter, beating foes that were stronger than him. A big weakness of Hulk is his reaction speed, lack of flight, and the fact he holds back alot to keep from killing someone. Mark has the advantages needed to beat Hulk.

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#11 Posted by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Hehehe, what a coincidence, i was about to write down my opener when i got the notification. Im also awfully interested in Invincible right now, i personally like the way he ends up like a bloody mess when fighting strong foes.

Anyways... Here we go.

Since you are already well versed with Hulk, im going to jump directly on why this Hulk is significantly better than all his past incarnations.

In Incredible Hulk #104...

There's never been a Hulk madder than this one which means there's never been a Hulk stronger than this one.

As Banner once explained in Indestructible Hulk #14... This Hulk is incredibly more intelligent and an strategist...

Much craftier and has more vision of battlefield. He wont fight as a brute like he most of times does.

That being said, let's go and counter your points shall we?

Current one is way to much for Hulk to tackle thanks to super high tier stats combined with Mark's massively hyper sonic speed.

How does his traveling speed translates to his combat speed? Not that it matters since Sentry tackling Hulk didn't work very well for him... It just ended with a direct punch on his face...

Sentry, who posses powerhouse super strength on his own in combination with huge mounts of energy projection to improve his fighting style aimed for the tackling at high speed move and it just ended with a direct punch on his face, pretty much staggering him on place to end up like this...

Pretty much the same bloody mess Invincible always turns when fighting strong people, in this case, Invincible isn't walking alive/conscious.

Mark is also a smart fighter, beating foes that were stronger than him.

Hulk is also a smart fighter, specially this incarnation, beating people who have a HUGE speed advantage, which conveniently, is the only advantage Invincible has over Hulk.

A big weakness of Hulk is his reaction speed, lack of flight, and the fact he holds back alot to keep from killing someone. Mark has the advantages needed to beat Hulk.

I already showed him reacting to Sentry high speed tackle, anyway, luckily, Hulk doesn't need to rely on his reflexes 100%, he still posses the infamous Thunderclap. Which is strong enough to affect Hyperion, Thor, Red Hulk just to name some high tiers.

And it wouldn't just work as an AoE attack but as a possible KO weapon as well since Hulk can amp his thunderclaps with Gamma radiation...

It actually almost KO'd Rulk, which is a high tier on his own. I think it's not so hard to know, Thunderclaps are awfully easy to perform by Hulk and it doesn't take more than a second. Invincible's speed has many ways to be countered.

Anyway, it's true, Hulk wouldn't kill him, but he doesn't hold back into hurting the foes he wants to hurt. But flight isn't a disadvantage since Invincible still needs to come down to him to fight him. Again, this Hulk isn't a brute, he's going to turn the battle to his convenience.

With this, i'll rest my intro... To sum it up:

  • The strength feats you've shown doesn't prove Invincible has what it takes to take on this Hulk given the fact not even Sentry without pulling his punches could do it. But i'll wait for more feats, those shouldn't be the best of him i assume? ;)
  • Even if he has the speed advantage, he falls short in ever other department, making such advantage a non-factor.
  • Hulk still has enough strength, durability, regeneration factor, cunningness and smartness to beat Invincible graciously.

Looking forward to this... Im pumped up >:)

#12 Edited by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: Glad you remember I am versed in Hulk from his first comic till Planet Hulk. :) I will get back on this soon.

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#13 Posted by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio
#14 Edited by Floopay (7700 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: @cadencev2: Invite me in to vote on this one, liking it so far. I take it Invincible is worth reading? Maybe I'll pick it up.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#15 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay said:

@ghostravage: @cadencev2: Invite me in to vote on this one, liking it so far. I take it Invincible is worth reading? Maybe I'll pick it up.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

One of the better written comics and characters ever.

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#16 Edited by Fallschirmjager (11594 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: @floopay: Invincible is excellent imo. Way better than TWD (same author).

Its kind of like a cross between Superman and Spider-Man. Where alien from another planet type deal, only the story takes place in his late teens early twenties and he has to deal with Peter Parker type real life issues too. There's realistic issues, planet wide issues, cosmic issues..etc.

I bought like every single trades a couple months ago and caught up on the series and read it all in like 2 sittings >_>

#17 Posted by tparks (2351 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Invinicible is definitely worth it. I bought whatever the current issue was a few months ago because I've heard awesome reviews of the entire series, and became so hooked that I blew through all my cash and bought the entire series so I could read from issue #1 to the most current issue.

#18 Posted by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: You got it mate.

@ghostravage: @floopay: Invincible is excellent imo. Way better than TWD (same author).

Its kind of like a cross between Superman and Spider-Man. Where alien from another planet type deal, only the story takes place in his late teens early twenties and he has to deal with Peter Parker type real life issues too.

I bought like every single trades a couple months ago and read it all in like 2 sittings >_>

Good to know, i think im going to buy some, in what page can i buy it digital?

#19 Posted by tparks (2351 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: The entire series is on comixology. I think the only issues that aren't digital is the Marvel crossover with Spiderman (which is canon).

#20 Posted by Wolverine08 (26713 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool debate so far.

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#21 Posted by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 So... Are we going through this?

...wtf... I MADE A POST DAYS AGO! Its not here!

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#23 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 So... Are we going through this?

I made a excellent long post. I quit. I am simply not making it again. Such bull$h!t!

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#24 Edited by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Damn... I was looking forward to this... Oh well. Let's drop this.

#25 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Damn... I was looking forward to this... Oh well. Let's drop this.

Give me like a day or 2 and I will post it again.

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#26 Posted by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Ok mate, try to do it as fast as you can :P

#27 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: This post is NOWHERE as good as my first post, but it is whatever >_<

How does his traveling speed translates to his combat speed? Not that it matters since Sentry tackling Hulk didn't work very well for him... It just ended with a direct punch on his face...

Sentry is not that impressive in his charging half the time. Hercules reacted and bashed Sentry twice and he has no real good speed reaction feats.

Both Examples here.

Sentry is also not a good comparison as his best Combat Speed is here.

Now Viltrumites have clear cut Reaction times in battle. Example... meet the Red Blur.

As seen here, the Red Blur is so fast, he is saving people through the entirety of Moscow, while seeming to never move to his girlfriend, carrying out a conversation!

Omni Man with his Viltrumite stats blitzes the whole team including the massively hyper sonic Red Blur.

Another example is Mark himself in his battle vs the Viltrumite Conquest.

Read what Cecil is saying at the end. Invincible and Conquest are fighting at such high speeds, the Satellites tracking the are 5 minuets behind the battle! They battled in 12 panels across the world, the ocean, then space, then back across the ocean, and back in America.

I have a host of more feats, but will restrain on showing them.

Also the WWH vs Sentry is not that good of a showing. Sentry was clearly holding back.

That is 100% Sentry fighting Hulk. sentry is a fraction of his true power unlike Void who is Sentry at a 100%. That is how WWH would have went down if Hulk fought Sentry as Sentry was during Siege.

Also Sentry has had trouble lifting a Helicarrier.

Yet Invincible manages to throw this into space with his mere 500 ton brother there for moral support.

Big difference in strength apparently.

Sentry, who posses powerhouse super strength on his own in combination with huge mounts of energy projection to improve his fighting style aimed for the tackling at high speed move and it just ended with a direct punch on his face, pretty much staggering him on place to end up like this...

Like I said, using Sentry as a benchmark is faulty at best. I never seen Sentry level entire Cities in a single battle, he barely harmed New York when fighting Ultron in a blood lusted state. I never seen sentry use killing blows or kill anyone in character. I never seen Sentry fight at super speeds. Mark however does level cities, does fight at super speeds, and does kill people.

Viltrumites like Invincible and such? They level whole cities in their fights.

Invincible regular fights are on a grander scale than what Hulks best fights are. Hulk best feats are World Breaker, yet Invincible with his Father and the weaker Thaddeus mange this.

Invincible is already more than 1/3rd world breaker.

I also showed how his charge left a huge impact crater that is easily Manhattan size on the moon.

Pretty much the same bloody mess Invincible always turns when fighting strong people, in this case, Invincible isn't walking alive/conscious.

Invincible is only harmed by beings of near equal stats. These beings also like to use stabbing attacks with their hands or feet.

All 4 examples show how he fights on through open fractures, broken arms/legs, guts spewing out of his stomach, ect. Yet that Healing Factor allows Invincible to keep going, and going, and going, and going, ect.

Hulk is also a smart fighter, specially this incarnation, beating people who have a HUGE speed advantage, which conveniently, is the only advantage Invincible has over Hulk.

I proven just how clever Mark is against foes in random battles.

I already showed him reacting to Sentry high speed tackle, anyway, luckily, Hulk doesn't need to rely on his reflexes 100%, he still posses the infamous Thunderclap. Which is strong enough to affect Hyperion, Thor, Red Hulk just to name some high tiers.

And it wouldn't just work as an AoE attack but as a possible KO weapon as well since Hulk can amp his thunderclaps with Gamma radiation...

It actually almost KO'd Rulk, which is a high tier on his own. I think it's not so hard to know, Thunderclaps are awfully easy to perform by Hulk and it doesn't take more than a second. Invincible's speed has many ways to be countered.

Hulk thunder clap is overrated.

Here invincible Thunder Claps so hard, it frees the other heroes, including Monster Girl who is a 80+ toner. what is impressive how it overpower the Sequid Mass that easily held Monster Girl in place, yet Invincible easily blows through the Sequid mass and Thunder Claps the heroes free.

Thunder Clap is not new nor a game changer for Invincible.

Anyway, it's true, Hulk wouldn't kill him, but he doesn't hold back into hurting the foes he wants to hurt. But flight isn't a disadvantage since Invincible still needs to come down to him to fight him. Again, this Hulk isn't a brute, he's going to turn the battle to his convenience.

Hulk is at a major disadvantage to speed. He simply does not do well against speedsters.

  • Grey Hulk could not tag spider Man.
  • Grey Hulk could not tag Quick Silver.
  • Professor Hulk could not get his hands on Speed Freak in both of their matches.
  • Savage Hulk could not get a hold of Namor when Namor used his massive speed in the ocean.
  • Savage Hulk could not get a decent hit on Tiger Shark in a river.

I just named 5 different cases off the top of my head with my Hulk Collection.

Now can Hulk tag Invincible? sure, he could get a few hits to Invincible 100s of hits. Could the thunder Clap work? It would workl once, and then Invincible will just easily adapt to it.

Speed is a huge advantage, and so is flight as I will show next post.

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#28 Edited by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Good to know you're still up to this :P

Ok Here we go...

First of all, half your argument was based on how Sentry isn't a good measuring stick instead of making an argument for Invincible.

Sentry is not that impressive in his charging half the time. Hercules reacted and bashed Sentry twice and he has no real good speed reaction feats.

How does Sentry's reaction affects Hulk's reaction? Im not arguing for Sentry but for Hulk. That being said, Sentry actually tackled Hulk while getting him with his guard off...

(From right to left)

The tackle did worked on Hulk, once, but then he just tries the same strategy and ends up with a huge fist in his face. That being said, the point still stands, how is Invincible tackling him if he can react to high speed tackles without much trouble. It doesn't matter if Sentry took the punches, Hulk still reacted to the high speed tackle.

Omni Man with his Viltrumite stats blitzes the whole team including the massively hyper sonic Red Blur.

It was stated Omni Man was still more powerful than Mark, and you're not arguing for Omni Man but for Invincible. Having Vultrimites stats doesn't make Mark equal to Omni Man. That's like saying Power Girl is equal to Superman when she's clearly not.

Read what Cecil is saying at the end. Invincible and Conquest are fighting at such high speeds, the Satellites tracking the are 5 minuets behind the battle! They battled in 12 panels across the world, the ocean, then space, then back across the ocean, and back in America.

He doesn't look very good at fighting at high speeds. Not to mention, you're making too much emphasis on Speed whereas all the other attributes seem to be useless against Hulk. Speed alone is not going to give a win on a KO/Death match.

Also the WWH vs Sentry is not that good of a showing. Sentry was clearly holding back.

Sentry wasn't holding 1% against him... Look at what he says about it...

He's punching Hulk awfully hard because he's the only one that can take it. Sentry was mentally unstable because of what happened with the Void events. But that doesn't take out the caliber of the hits Hulk was shrugging off in the instance.

But just to prove you wrong twice, let's see what the egghead Reed have to say...

He never unleashed his power like this before, you're statements are blunt.

Not to mention, the Hulk you presented is NOT Pak's Hulk, and it wasn't Sentry but Void, which is leagues above this tier.

Also Sentry has had trouble lifting a Helicarrier.

This is an obvious attempt to lowball Sentry. Going by the same token, Sentry stopped Terrax's axe still... WAY greater than the low end feats you're trying to use.

Again, im feeling im arguing for Sentry instead of Hulk.

Like I said, using Sentry as a benchmark is faulty at best. I never seen Sentry level entire Cities in a single battle, he barely harmed New York when fighting Ultron in a blood lusted state. I never seen sentry use killing blows or kill anyone in character. I never seen Sentry fight at super speeds. Mark however does level cities, does fight at super speeds, and does kill people.

I gotta say, i would've like to see what you wrote before for reasons i stated. First, you're wrong, Sentry decimated a huge portion of New York in the fight against Hulk.

Really, Sentry and Hulk could've decimated New York in its entirety if it wasn't for Hulk KOing Sentry.

Invincible regular fights are on a grander scale than what Hulks best fights are. Hulk best feats are World Breaker, yet Invincible with his Father and the weaker Thaddeus mange this.

That's not a regular fight, that's a bit of an overstatement. That being said, it's a shared feat between 3 people, and not only is less impressive than what WBH did but the fact they need momentum to do this. It's awfully visible how they are getting speed to go through the planet whose sized wasn't stated. To then being stomped by a group of Vultrimites.

Anyway, how is going to do such thing off the bat when Hulk was shrugging off this kind of attacks in World War Hulk: X-Men #3

He's fighting Juggernaut equally, almost stopping his charge... A Juggernaut whose punches generate this kind of force...

Incredible Hulk #602

He was generating 8.0 Earthquakes without even trying that happened to be a force of 6,270,000 tons (I used this and this sources for information). Now picture this image while fighting Hulk, being quite pissed after the beat down he received before that. Now im going to quote you again...

Invincible is very strong, in the 100,000+ tons.

100,000 tons falls AWFULLY short to 6.27 million tons. And Hulk didn't move from his place after receiving several hits like this. He's not moving to Invincible's pitiful attacks that haven't shown anything to suggest he can take down Hulk...

Invincible is only harmed by beings of near equal stats. These beings also like to use stabbing attacks with their hands or feet.

Hulk can't even be harmed by his own force as shown in World War Hulk: X-Men #3

That being said, Hulk doesn't even need to stab him with his hand, he could just grab him and punch him several times like he did to Wolverine, whose regeneration factor is lightyears superior to Invincible...

All 4 examples show how he fights on through open fractures, broken arms/legs, guts spewing out of his stomach, ect. Yet that Healing Factor allows Invincible to keep going, and going, and going, and going, ect.

I don't know how getting half your guts being puked counts as a regeneration feat. He's dying man. The reason he keeps fighting its more likely due to his strong determination rather than his regeneration. Not like Hulk who can heal his eyes in seconds. Or having the exact same holes in his chest and heal in seconds. You more than anyone should know how a regeneration feats work.

Hulk thunder clap is overrated.

Really? Hulk thunderclaps are overrated when you're using an instance that doesn't show anything to close to what i've shown? Hulk almost one shot'd Red Hulk, how can that be overrated if it has on panel proof? Proving Invincible can thunderclap doesn't prove Invincible will withstand the Thunderclap.

For someone who can take SEVERAL blows from Odin Force Thor ultimately beating him and throwing him in the moon to then being almost one shot'd by a Gamma Amped Thunderclap speaks by itself.

The funny thing is in both instances, it was Loeb's Rulk.

Hulk is at a major disadvantage to speed. He simply does not do well against speedsters.

  • Grey Hulk could not tag spider Man.
  • Grey Hulk could not tag Quick Silver.
  • Professor Hulk could not get his hands on Speed Freak in both of their matches.
  • Savage Hulk could not get a hold of Namor when Namor used his massive speed in the ocean.
  • Savage Hulk could not get a decent hit on Tiger Shark in a river.

Im just going to assume you didn't get my first argument. This Hulk is NOTHING like the other Hulks... Instead of only relying on his stats, he's awfully clever. He, more than once, has thunderclapped against speedsters. What stopping him from doing it now? A Thunderclap that SURELY will harm him, let alone almost KO him.

Now can Hulk tag Invincible? sure, he could get a few hits to Invincible 100s of hits. Could the thunder Clap work? It would workl once, and then Invincible will just easily adapt to it.

You've said it yourself, Hulk will tag him, and that's all he needs since his mind works this way as explained in Incredible Hulk #110

He performs subconscious calculations to know where to hit to provoke major damage without hurting innocent people. But just to give you a picture on how this works... Be my guest... Incredible Hulk #109

This same ability can be applied to Hulk hitting people exactly in the right spot to provoke max damage. 1 hit is all he needs to start killing Invincible.

Speed is a huge advantage, and so is flight as I will show next post.

It's not a huge advantage, more like an ability Hulk doesn't posses. Same goes for flight since Invincible has no ranged attacks to exploit.

To sum it up!

  • Hulk still has ALL the advantages minus speed, which alone WON'T pull the win for Invincible rather than make him flee faster.
  • Hulk Smash.

Your turn mate, and try to keep it to Hulk, i don't have a pletora of scans to argue for Sentry nor other character.

#29 Edited by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage:

First of all, half your argument was based on how Sentry isn't a good measuring stick instead of making an argument for Invincible.

How does Sentry's reaction affects Hulk's reaction? Im not arguing for Sentry but for Hulk. That being said, Sentry actually tackled Hulk while getting him with his guard off...

The tackle did worked on Hulk, once, but then he just tries the same strategy and ends up with a huge fist in his face. That being said, the point still stands, how is Invincible tackling him if he can react to high speed tackles without much trouble. It doesn't matter if Sentry took the punches, Hulk still reacted to the high speed tackle.

Again, how can Sentry be reliable as a good example when Hercules countered Sentry charge twice while laughing?

Sentry is not a good measuring stick for Hulk. He is inconsistent, never unleashed full power as Sentry, and never understood his power till his battle with Molecule Man.

Sentry is a bad example.

It was stated Omni Man was still more powerful than Mark, and you're not arguing for Omni Man but for Invincible. Having Vultrimites stats doesn't make Mark equal to Omni Man. That's like saying Power Girl is equal to Superman when she's clearly not.

Actually guy, Omni Man and Mark as of Issue 103 are equals now.

Issue 70 something Mark was only ever so slightly slower than his father. So why is Omni Man faster? He really is not anymore. Mark is becoming top Viltrumite now with only Thragg and Allen the Alien beating him in stats.

It happened.

He doesn't look very good at fighting at high speeds. Not to mention, you're making too much emphasis on Speed whereas all the other attributes seem to be useless against Hulk. Speed alone is not going to give a win on a KO/Death match.

Speed is a HUGE factor in any fight. Ask any DC fan who screams Speed Blitz in Marvel vs DC threads. Speed is the number one factor followed by strength and durability. If Hulk cannot see or comprehend Invincible because of the speed difference, that is a huge deal. Add in Invincible insane strength and punches hitting hulk 100 times a second, that is a big deal.

You can try to downplay speed, but it is a major factor in all fights.

Sentry wasn't holding 1% against him... Look at what he says about it...

He's punching Hulk awfully hard because he's the only one that can take it. Sentry was mentally unstable because of what happened with the Void events. But that doesn't take out the caliber of the hits Hulk was shrugging off in the instance.

Sentry is a terrible benchmark. I proved why already.

But just to prove you wrong twice, let's see what the egghead Reed have to say...

He never unleashed his power like this before, you're statements are blunt.

lol Reed also said the Phoenix Force created the Universe, then says later it was Alien X! Reed is the expert now? He is not, he never knew how Sentry's powers worked, no one did. Not till the Molecule Man battle.

You statement is blunt.

This is an obvious attempt to lowball Sentry. Going by the same token, Sentry stopped Terrax's axe still... WAY greater than the low end feats you're trying to use.

Again, im feeling im arguing for Sentry instead of Hulk.

Again, Sentry's mind set plays a role on his powers, he has the power, but how can you prove he is using it to the full potential? You cant! Full potential is Void, and if he is not going Void, he is not going anywhere near 100%.

I gotta say, i would've like to see what you wrote before for reasons i stated. First, you're wrong, Sentry decimated a huge portion of New York in the fight against Hulk.

Really, Sentry and Hulk could've decimated New York in its entirety if it wasn't for Hulk KOing Sentry.

Sentry decimated a couple of buildings and streets out of the thousands of buildings and streets. With a all out attack too. Whooopy. Mark destroys more holding back.

That's not a regular fight, that's a bit of an overstatement. That being said, it's a shared feat between 3 people, and not only is less impressive than what WBH did but the fact they need momentum to do this. It's awfully visible how they are getting speed to go through the planet whose sized wasn't stated. To then being stomped by a group of Vultrimites.

World Breaker Hulk is also vastly different in stats and power to WWH. WBH emits a Gamma Field and everything. Also you can see the size of that world is pretty big. Add to that the scan of the city size busting attack Mark did on the moon surface. I doubght that is a small planet.

Anyway, how is going to do such thing off the bat when Hulk was shrugging off this kind of attacks in World War Hulk: X-Men #3

He's fighting Juggernaut equally, almost stopping his charge... A Juggernaut whose punches generate this kind of force...

Incredible Hulk #602

He was generating 8.0 Earthquakes without even trying that happened to be a force of 6,270,000 tons (I used this and this sources for information). Now picture this image while fighting Hulk, being quite pissed after the beat down he received before that. Now im going to quote you again...

8.0.... thats it? Haiti was rocked by 7.0 and I never felt it from Florida......

Invincible like wise rearranged mountain and help blow up a planet.

100,000 tons falls AWFULLY short to 6.27 million tons. And Hulk didn't move from his place after receiving several hits like this. He's not moving to Invincible's pitiful attacks that haven't shown anything to suggest he can take down Hulk...

Hulk has also been nearly dropped by 80 ton Thing and 100 ton Namor. LOL. Seriously..... if Hulk was always 6.27 Million tons, he would wipe the floor with Doc Samson, Thing, Namor, wrecking Crew, Abomination, Depowered Juggernaut, or Hercules.

He does not. He was also pushed to his max and could not hold the weight for long in that one time showing. He peaked at that weight load.

Hulk can't even be harmed by his own force as shown in World War Hulk: X-Men #3

That being said, Hulk doesn't even need to stab him with his hand, he could just grab him and punch him several times like he did to Wolverine, whose regeneration factor is lightyears superior to Invincible...

Wolverine is also capable of being KOed by street levelers from time to time. Wolverine does not have Supermen level Durability either >_>

I don't know how getting half your guts being puked counts as a regeneration feat. He's dying man. The reason he keeps fighting its more likely due to his strong determination rather than his regeneration. Not like Hulk who can heal his eyes in seconds. Or having the exact same holes in his chest and heal in seconds. You more than anyone should know how a regeneration feats work.

He does not die is the factor. He heals that in a month too. That is a death blow, INSTANT death blow for a human level healing factor.

Really? Hulk thunderclaps are overrated when you're using an instance that doesn't show anything to close to what i've shown? Hulk almost one shot'd Red Hulk, how can that be overrated if it has on panel proof? Proving Invincible can thunderclap doesn't prove Invincible will withstand the Thunderclap.

For someone who can take SEVERAL blows from Odin Force Thor ultimately beating him and throwing him in the moon to then being almost one shot'd by a Gamma Amped Thunderclap speaks by itself.

The funny thing is in both instances, it was Loeb's Rulk.

Rulk is weak sauce to Invincible. He is not nearly as strong and nowhere near as durable.

Also I think bringing up Loeb Rulk PIS feats is a bad move as proof of anything. We all know Hulk was going to win. Period.

Im just going to assume you didn't get my first argument. This Hulk is NOTHING like the other Hulks... Instead of only relying on his stats, he's awfully clever. He, more than once, has thunderclapped against speedsters. What stopping him from doing it now? A Thunderclap that SURELY will harm him, let alone almost KO him.

He Thunder Clap what speedsters? He has never faces the speed of Invincible.

Viltrumites are FTL in travel speed.

1-4) Omni Man Bio states FTL speeds and he proves it by searching the galaxy for another habitual planet to conquer while flying through Space. He can only hold his breath for 2 weeks. Massively FTL.

5-6) Omni Man, Kid Omni Man, and Invincible within less than a hour of the battle on the Coalition of Planets main world, had flown from one world in another Solar System to that Solar System and its world. That is FTL by alot.

7-8) Viltrumites within one week time frame traveled across the Galaxy to find the planet Omni Man was hiding on after beating on Allen for info.

This is the charging speed Hulk must contend with.

You've said it yourself, Hulk will tag him, and that's all he needs since his mind works this way as explained in Incredible Hulk #110

He performs subconscious calculations to know where to hit to provoke major damage without hurting innocent people. But just to give you a picture on how this works... Be my guest... Incredible Hulk #109

This same ability can be applied to Hulk hitting people exactly in the right spot to provoke max damage. 1 hit is all he needs to start killing Invincible.

Your suggesting Hulk mind works the same exact way as Cho? Wrong. Show me Hulk flicking a penut, bouncing off 20 things, and into someones eye. That is Cho mathematics. Hulk only use his mathematics to not kill foes. Which will cost him against invincible.

Lets go through the full Durability of Mark shall we?

1) Tanks a human size bomb with little effort in his weakest incarnation.

2-5) Invincible coughs off a Thermal Bomb attack that evaporates Las Vegas and glasses the desert.

6) Invincible tanks a dimensional blast that ashes a small army of Mauler Twins, each with super Human Durability in the 20 ton range.

7) Crack jokes during Furnace attacks, who has the body of Magma.

8) Ignores high power lasers.

9-11) Invincible shrugs of a Nuke exploding in his face. Next panel he flies back to earth to finish of the Mauler Twins.

12-14) Laughs off this severe attack from another Viltrumite warrior.

He is leagues tougher than any foe Hulk fought short of Thor.

It's not a huge advantage, more like an ability Hulk doesn't posses. Same goes for flight since Invincible has no ranged attacks to exploit.

Well here it is. Did you know it is in character for Mark to fight in space?

Here is a character called Winters who was strong enough to harm Mark. He figured a easy and quick victory to win. Fly him to Space where Mark has the advantage.

He can do this easy with his super speed. Even if Hulk hit mark off, Mark can easy do it other ways.

1-2) Like this bag of trash he flicks from middle America to England. Hulk weght is not a factor.

3) Throws these Aircraft Carrier in mass star ship pieces into high orbit.

4-5) With a few punches sends Conquest into Space.

Fighting in Space is second nature for Mark, can Hulk in anyway contend with that?

No, Hulk would be screwed hard. Especially with Invincible FTL speeds in space.

Online
#30 Posted by Wolverine08 (26713 posts) - - Show Bio

This is getting... interesting.

Online
#31 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (14194 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@floopay said:

@ghostravage: @cadencev2: Invite me in to vote on this one, liking it so far. I take it Invincible is worth reading? Maybe I'll pick it up.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

One of the better written comics and characters ever.

yeah.. conquest ftw!

And all the best :)

#32 Posted by Lvenger (16058 posts) - - Show Bio

This is getting... interesting.

Powerhouse debates do tend to get...interesting. Take it from a man with experience :P

#33 Posted by green_skaar (4105 posts) - - Show Bio

It's looking good so far!

#34 Posted by Wolverine08 (26713 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@wolverine08 said:

This is getting... interesting.

Powerhouse debates do tend to get...interesting. Take it from a man with experience :P

Need to try get into one of these soon. Can't stay street level forever :D

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#35 Posted by Lvenger (16058 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@wolverine08 said:

This is getting... interesting.

Powerhouse debates do tend to get...interesting. Take it from a man with experience :P

Need to try get into one of these soon. Can't stay street level forever :D

Even though I find it easier to debate powerhouses over street level, the parameters of street level debates are much easier to discuss than powerhouse/mid tier ones.

#36 Edited by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Nice. But again, you're still countering for Sentry instead of Hulk. It doesn't matter if Sentry was caught by Hercules because of his cape. The highspeed tackle still stands in the feat. Im not arguing for Sentry's consistency, but for Hulk who reacted to a high speed tackle without trouble. How more simple can i put it?

That being said, im going to restrain myself from arguing about Sentry. Im going directly to your points.

Speed is a HUGE factor in any fight. Ask any DC fan who screams Speed Blitz in Marvel vs DC threads. Speed is the number one factor followed by strength and durability. If Hulk cannot see or comprehend Invincible because of the speed difference, that is a huge deal. Add in Invincible insane strength and punches hitting hulk 100 times a second, that is a big deal.

It is a factor, a factor equal to Durability, Strength and Regeneration Factor... Again, he only posses speed, you still haven't shown any strength feat to suggest he can put down Hulk. If Hulk cannot fight him with the combat speed you haven't shown, Thunderclaps are still on the table, the same Thunderclaps he uses against people like this past instance... Of the Grey Hulk you are so versed with...

This in combination to his calculation attributes is going to be the perfect counter for speed. And Grey Hulk is LIGHTYEARS weaker in every aspect to WWH.

You can try to downplay speed, but it is a major factor in all fights.

Im not downplaying it... Im just saying that's your ONLY factor in the fight. Therefore your speed gets overwhelmed by all the other factors Hulk has on his side.

lol Reed also said the Phoenix Force created the Universe, then says later it was Alien X! Reed is the expert now? He is not, he never knew how Sentry's powers worked, no one did. Not till the Molecule Man battle.

You statement is blunt.

He said Sentry never unleashed his powers like this before, how can that be wrong if he knew how Sentry battled before. You're trying to say the battle with Sentry doesn't count because he didn't use 100% voided sentry inter-dimensional Molecular Manipulation?

All im saying is Sentry wasn't holding back while being conscious about it. Then statements by Reed confirm in that particular instance, Sentry never showed to release his powers in that magnitude.

Sentry decimated a couple of buildings and streets out of the thousands of buildings and streets. With a all out attack too. Whooopy. Mark destroys more holding back.

How does collateral damage proves consequential to the debate? Are you ignoring the fact Hulk DIDN'T want to create collateral damage to avoid hurting innocent people? Not to mention, Hulk just cut loose and made a planet explode when the time came.

If that proves anything is that Invincible is a sloppy hero that can't keep innocent people from getting hurt. Something like the MoS who decimated Metropolis and turned it into the Favelas.

Your suggesting Hulk mind works the same exact way as Cho? Wrong. Show me Hulk flicking a penut, bouncing off 20 things, and into someones eye. That is Cho mathematics. Hulk only use his mathematics to not kill foes. Which will cost him against invincible.

It doesn't matter if the calculations don't appear next to Hulk, Cho still claimed his brain works the same way as his. But see it for yourself and i want a really good counter for this one...

Really, the instance is self explanatory... He seems to punch Amadeus, destroying everything around him yet he is UNPHASED by an entire destruction next to him. Hulk just knows were to hit. How did he predict Cho wasn't going to get hit by any debris? How does he always know where to punch a copter to make it explode yet leave the pilot unharmed?

Again, it applies the same way as when he wants to hurt people. That the reason most of times he manages to hurt people many other powerhouses couldn't.

Hulk has also been nearly dropped by 80 ton Thing and 100 ton Namor. LOL. Seriously..... if Hulk was always 6.27 Million tons, he would wipe the floor with Doc Samson, Thing, Namor, wrecking Crew, Abomination, Depowered Juggernaut, or Hercules.

For the 3rd time... This Hulk is a whole new level! But see it for yourself, you're comparing past Hulks that weren't 1/1000 of angry this Hulk was. Not even close... I hope this doesn't fall into scan spam.

Hulk against Jen... (85 toner)

He makes her beg to god in 1 hit. 1!

Hulk vs. Hercules... (Same tier as Hulk, you actually mentioned him)

Look at how badly beaten up looks Hercules by just a few hits. Again, the guy is incredibly stronger in this iteration, something you apparently keep failing to see...

Hulk vs Thing (90 tons, you mentioned him as well)

3 hits... That's all it took to put him down... 3! All of this after taking Human Torch and Storm's best attacks.

Namor says this when he knows Hulk is coming back...

The instance is self explanatory, in other words, he's pooping his pants.

And you already saw what he did to full Cytorrak Juggernaut he was fine and dandy fighting him. So really, more than half the people you mentioned were getting stomped by this Hulk, you can't keep using past Hulk instances to judge this Hulk, i haven't even got to the best part about him yet.

===========================================================================================

1-4) Omni Man Bio states FTL speeds and he proves it by searching the galaxy for another habitual planet to conquer while flying through Space. He can only hold his breath for 2 weeks. Massively FTL.

5-6) Omni Man, Kid Omni Man, and Invincible within less than a hour of the battle on the Coalition of Planets main world, had flown from one world in another Solar System to that Solar System and its world. That is FTL by alot.

7-8) Viltrumites within one week time frame traveled across the Galaxy to find the planet Omni Man was hiding on after beating on Allen for info.

This is the charging speed Hulk must contend with

Good for them, awesome speed to flee out of Hulk's reach. Not to mention, all those instances are in outerspace, which happens to be the reason they can go at light speed. Superman fights at hypersonic speed on Earth because of air friction, which will apply for Invincible as well... Not that the tackle will work in the first place, it's not like he's going to get awfully far away to get momentum to try the "going through planet move" right off the bat. He's in character. And he doesn't know Hulk.

1) Tanks a human size bomb with little effort in his weakest incarnation.

2-5) Invincible coughs off a Thermal Bomb attack that evaporates Las Vegas and glasses the desert.

6) Invincible tanks a dimensional blast that ashes a small army of Mauler Twins, each with super Human Durability in the 20 ton range.

7) Crack jokes during Furnace attacks, who has the body of Magma.

8) Ignores high power lasers.

9-11) Invincible shrugs of a Nuke exploding in his face. Next panel he flies back to earth to finish of the Mauler Twins.

12-14) Laughs off this severe attack from another Viltrumite warrior.

He is leagues tougher than any foe Hulk fought short of Thor.

A lot of heat base resistance feats... I don't how being resistant to heat is consequential to the battle, since Hulk doesn't use fire but blunt force capable of tearing down the earth.

How resisting those things you showed puts him on Thor or Hulk's tier?

Well here it is. Did you know it is in character for Mark to fight in space?

This is a good point. However, this is where the magic of being in-character plays its role...

He doesn't do it off the bat, by the time he wants to perform this move it's going to be too late. Not to mention, i seriously doubt he's going to simply grab him, throw him if Hulk was receiving 6.27 million ton punches to the face and didn't went flying.

8.0.... thats it? Haiti was rocked by 7.0 and I never felt it from Florida......

Ok, im just going to assume you didn't read the sources i presented... Let me educate you mate...

This is from the California Department of Conservation Government page. As you can see, it generates such force but it isn't feel like it because it spreads out in waves. NOT like Juggernaut punches were like, they were focused in a particular spot, in this case, Hulk's face and Banner's shields.

1-2) Like this bag of trash he flicks from middle America to England. Hulk weght is not a factor.

3) Throws these Aircraft Carrier in mass star ship pieces into high orbit.

4-5) With a few punches sends Conquest into Space.

  1. The bag didn't fight back.
  2. The ship didn't fight back.
  3. How strong were the punches? Because to punch Hulk off New York to West Virginia it took this...

A 100 trillion ton uppercut to the chest just to fly a mere few miles. Im inexplicably certain Invincible doesn't posses ANYTHING close to this striking force. Not to mention he literally recovers instantly after receiving such hit. GG Invincible.

Fighting in Space is second nature for Mark, can Hulk in anyway contend with that?

No, Hulk would be screwed hard. Especially with Invincible FTL speeds in space.

He's not punching/grabbing Hulk to space until it's too late.

And how again does his traveling speed transfer to his combat speed? None of your scans in space present them fighting at high speed, let alone FTL.

That being said, again, this Hulk is not stupid. What's stopping him from outsmarting Invincible how he did to Dr. Strange...

He "victimized" himself to get his hands on Dr. Strange in the Astral Plane... What's stopping him from doing the same to Invincible in space? Acting like he can't breath, acting like he's KO'd and wait for Invincible to get near and grab him and break his hands exactly like he broke Dr. Strange hands.

Hulk can keep up his rage and power while being calmed since he mastered the ancient ways of the Oldstrong mediation...

All of this of course as a plan D if miraculously Invincible survives till the point of recurring to throw him in space.

To sum it up!

  • Hulk still posses durability, strength and regeneration factor on his side, let alone inertia to strong punches.
  • Invincible lacks the durability and strength necessary to prolong a battle against Hulk. And his character doesn't help him much.
  • Hulk Smash.

You turn mate ;)

#37 Posted by dum529001 (1573 posts) - - Show Bio

hmm...

#38 Posted by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 Just bumping mate. I don't even know if you read my counter.

#39 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 Just bumping mate. I don't even know if you read my counter.

I did it will be a few days and likely my last counter. I do not have much time today.

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#40 Posted by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage said:

@cadencev2 Just bumping mate. I don't even know if you read my counter.

I did it will be a few days and likely my last counter. I do not have much time today.

You're replying in a few days?

#41 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@ghostravage said:

@cadencev2 Just bumping mate. I don't even know if you read my counter.

I did it will be a few days and likely my last counter. I do not have much time today.

You're replying in a few days?

Sunday

Online
#42 Posted by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Edited by Shot (609 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn

#44 Edited by tparks (2351 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's safe to say,

#45 Edited by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage:

It is a factor, a factor equal to Durability, Strength and Regeneration Factor... Again, he only posses speed, you still haven't shown any strength feat to suggest he can put down Hulk. If Hulk cannot fight him with the combat speed you haven't shown, Thunderclaps are still on the table, the same Thunderclaps he uses against people like this past instance... Of the Grey Hulk you are so versed with...

This in combination to his calculation attributes is going to be the perfect counter for speed. And Grey Hulk is LIGHTYEARS weaker in every aspect to WWH.

I showed strength that surpasses Abomination, Wedigo, Namor, Iron Man, or Juggernaut. These are guys that given Hulk a hard time always.

Adding that strength to the speed of landing 100s of blows in a heart beat and you have Hulk ending up much like Angstrom Levey.

after Invincible wails on hulks skull with this, he will be a puddle of blood.

Im not downplaying it... Im just saying that's your ONLY factor in the fight. Therefore your speed gets overwhelmed by all the other factors Hulk has on his side.

Um no, lets look through this shall we.

Hulk

  • Super Strength
  • Durability
  • Healing Factor

Invincible

  • Super Strength
  • Durability
  • Healing Factor
  • Flight
  • Speed

Invincible may have two powers more, but it is 2 things he uses to his advantage often in the comics. How is Hulk going to fight at all in space? Mark is likely to send Hulk there.

He said Sentry never unleashed his powers like this before, how can that be wrong if he knew how Sentry battled before. You're trying to say the battle with Sentry doesn't count because he didn't use 100% voided sentry inter-dimensional Molecular Manipulation?

All im saying is Sentry wasn't holding back while being conscious about it. Then statements by Reed confirm in that particular instance, Sentry never showed to release his powers in that magnitude.

So he was not holding back, but was holding back. That statement contradicts it self. Sentry vs Hulk is never a good benchmark, he was holding back. He has strength superior to Hulk in leaps and bounds, yet we are to accept he burned out vs Hulk? No.

How does collateral damage proves consequential to the debate? Are you ignoring the fact Hulk DIDN'T want to create collateral damage to avoid hurting innocent people? Not to mention, Hulk just cut loose and made a planet explode when the time came.

If that proves anything is that Invincible is a sloppy hero that can't keep innocent people from getting hurt. Something like the MoS who decimated Metropolis and turned it into the Favelas.

Collateral damage is a great way to see and determine how strong a person is. Your argument Hulk is stronger is based on Bias rather than proof. At least Mark has evidence in his corner on feats.

Feats and facts.

It doesn't matter if the calculations don't appear next to Hulk, Cho still claimed his brain works the same way as his. But see it for yourself and i want a really good counter for this one...

Really, the instance is self explanatory... He seems to punch Amadeus, destroying everything around him yet he is UNPHASED by an entire destruction next to him. Hulk just knows were to hit. How did he predict Cho wasn't going to get hit by any debris? How does he always know where to punch a copter to make it explode yet leave the pilot unharmed?

Again, it applies the same way as when he wants to hurt people. That the reason most of times he manages to hurt people many other powerhouses couldn't.

Again, all this shows is Hulk is good at holding back. Thats all your proving here. It does not matter his brain is calculating, he only applies to to not hurting people.

Invincible will not hold back. In fact, he will do his best to kill Hulk after the fight goes on, and since Hulk can be stabbed or crushed, I see no reason Invincible with his strength and skill not be able to take out Hulk for a KO.

1) Throws Suicide bomber with a Smile.

2) Thought he killed Angstrom in a rage.

3) Bashes conquest head into mush, thinking he killed him.

4) Choked Conquest to death for real.

5) Killed Dinosaurus in a brutal matter.

6) Lets Dr. Seismic fall to his seeming death with a smile.

7) Kills Immortal without a second thought.

8) Wipes out half this Reanimen army in a go, thing is Mark knows Reanime are not dead people, his friend was turned into one and came back from it. Those Reanimen might been able to become normal again, Mark slayed them all.

9) A innocent man controlled by the Sequid has his head punched off when invincible decided he had enough.

Point is Invincible is not holding back like Hulk will be the whole fight. Something most Marvel heroes in WWH did. Like Zom Strange for example! Like Hulk could have beaten him if not for strange's weakness of character.

For the 3rd time... This Hulk is a whole new level! But see it for yourself, you're comparing past Hulks that weren't 1/1000 of angry this Hulk was. Not even close... I hope this doesn't fall into scan spam.

Hulk against Jen... (85 toner)

He makes her beg to god in 1 hit. 1!

Hulk vs. Hercules... (Same tier as Hulk, you actually mentioned him)

Look at how badly beaten up looks Hercules by just a few hits. Again, the guy is incredibly stronger in this iteration, something you apparently keep failing to see...

Hulk vs Thing (90 tons, you mentioned him as well)

3 hits... That's all it took to put him down... 3! All of this after taking Human Torch and Storm's best attacks.

Namor says this when he knows Hulk is coming back...

The instance is self explanatory, in other words, he's pooping his pants.

And you already saw what he did to full Cytorrak Juggernaut he was fine and dandy fighting him. So really, more than half the people you mentioned were getting stomped by this Hulk, you can't keep using past Hulk instances to judge this Hulk, i haven't even got to the best part about him yet.

Problem is Hulk could be say 500 tons on average and accomplish those same feats easy. Invincible does not need to get madder to get stronger, he simply is in the 100,000+ range all the time.

Good for them, awesome speed to flee out of Hulk's reach. Not to mention, all those instances are in outerspace, which happens to be the reason they can go at light speed. Superman fights at hypersonic speed on Earth because of air friction, which will apply for Invincible as well... Not that the tackle will work in the first place, it's not like he's going to get awfully far away to get momentum to try the "going through planet move" right off the bat. He's in character. And he doesn't know Hulk.

I already said Invincible is FTL in Space, he is Insanely faster than Quicksilver could hope to be in Earths Atmoshere.

Add to this Invincible will take the fight into space which is very easy as I showed.

He can Toss Hulk, Throw Hulk, Punch Hulk, or Fly Hulk into space for a guaranteed win!

A lot of heat base resistance feats... I don't how being resistant to heat is consequential to the battle, since Hulk doesn't use fire but blunt force capable of tearing down the earth.

Alot of heat base? What?

Nukes are not heat base only guy, they are tremendous force, the heat is actually less damaging than the shock wave. Same for the Dimensional Blast that blew away the whole port away. Or the fact Invincible tanks and shruggs off attacks from Viltrumites who all are vastly stronger than average Hulk by leagues.

How resisting those things you showed puts him on Thor or Hulk's tier?

How is it not on Hulks tier? Did you even bother looking at the scans?

This is a good point. However, this is where the magic of being in-character plays its role...

He doesn't do it off the bat, by the time he wants to perform this move it's going to be too late. Not to mention, i seriously doubt he's going to simply grab him, throw him if Hulk was receiving 6.27 million ton punches to the face and didn't went flying.

Yeah he will not do it off the bat, he will do it after being hit once and realize how dangerous Hulk is and note he cannot fly at all.

Bamsky.

Ok, im just going to assume you didn't read the sources i presented... Let me educate you mate...

This is from the California Department of Conservation Government page. As you can see, it generates such force but it isn't feel like it because it spreads out in waves. NOT like Juggernaut punches were like, they were focused in a particular spot, in this case, Hulk's face and Banner's shields.

I really do not care. Earthquak feats may look good, but they are not that special in comics.

Here is a 200 toner doing the near same thing. Big deal....

There is many factors in earthquake feats too, tectonic plates, stability of the city foundation, type of rock that makes up that area, ect.

Also Earthquakes generate more force becuase they are below ground, not above like Hulk did. You cannot post a statement like that when the way the earthquake was done in a completely different way.

A 100 trillion ton uppercut to the chest just to fly a mere few miles. Im inexplicably certain Invincible doesn't posses ANYTHING close to this striking force. Not to mention he literally recovers instantly after receiving such hit. GG Invincible.

So your seriously going to argue Hulk defies gravity because of a poor WIS scan? What proof he can not be sent flying into space, can hulk defy gravity? Show me that in his bio. You have no real defense here.

He's not punching/grabbing Hulk to space until it's too late.

Whats considered too late? Its in character for mark to do this after getting hit once and hes too fast for Hulk to counter it.

And how again does his traveling speed transfer to his combat speed? None of your scans in space present them fighting at high speed, let alone FTL.

Seriously, I showed few times now the combat and reaction speed, your ignoring it is not my problem. Im done with this weak argument against the scans I posted.

That being said, again, this Hulk is not stupid. What's stopping him from outsmarting Invincible how he did to Dr. Strange...

He "victimized" himself to get his hands on Dr. Strange in the Astral Plane... What's stopping him from doing the same to Invincible in space? Acting like he can't breath, acting like he's KO'd and wait for Invincible to get near and grab him and break his hands exactly like he broke Dr. Strange hands.

Mark is not weak willed like Strange, he kills people in character, and will kill Hulk if Hulk pushes him.Hulk trying to victimize himself vs current Mark will just die easier.

To Conclude

  • You have no counter to Marks insane super speed at all. Sentry is not a good example and many other versions of Hulk have been totally out class by foes not even a quarter of Mark's speed.
  • Hulk is not so strong that he outclasses Invincible. Feat for feat, Invincible matches up nicely. Mark flew through a planet!
  • Hulk holds back, alot. Mark is willing to kill and goes for it if Hulk peeves Mark off enough.
  • Hulk is outclass in powers, Invincible has more than "Hulk Smash" and will use those powers of speed and flight to take full advantage. He blitzes in character.
  • Mark will likely take the fight into Space where Hulk simply loses.
  • Mark is also not only smart, but adapts many times against unique power foes in seconds of battle, he will figure hulk out quick, he fought enough Hulk like beings.

Invincible wins heavy majority of this fight. My last post mate. After you counter we ca go to votes.

Online
#46 Posted by GhostRavage (7576 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

I showed strength that surpasses Abomination, Wedigo, Namor, Iron Man, or Juggernaut. These are guys that given Hulk a hard time always.

Ok. Since this is my last reply i guess i could repeat it for the 4th time... This Hulk is NOT like the past incarnations. This is literally his strongest iteration, period. You just can't compare him to his past incarnations since he's never been stronger than this.

Hulk was even fighting Wendigo and Bi-Beast, guys that were rivals of Savage Hulk and were amped 1000 times stronger than before. Still that didn't stop Hulk from owning them...

I mean, really, he was literally humiliating them without even trying, and before that he was all happy about this...

Really, this Hulk is a psycho... Instead of the famous "Leave Hulk alone" he prefers to fight...

Adding that strength to the speed of landing 100s of blows in a heart beat and you have Hulk ending up much like Angstrom Levey.

You still haven't shown Invincible landing that amount of hits on someone, let alone using any kind of "hypersonic" speed in combat. Rather than 1 instance where he is getting trashed. That is not helpful.

And still, you haven't presented that strength Invincible is supposed to have that can put Hulk down, you haven't shown anything close to a million tons let alone 100 trillion tons of striking force. He would be staggered by punching someone who actually is able to tough out those forces without much trouble.

Hulk

  • Super Strength
  • Durability
  • Healing Factor

Invincible

  • Super Strength
  • Durability
  • Healing Factor
  • Flight
  • Speed

This is in no shape, way or form a valid argument. There's NOTHING to suggest their abilities are equal.

Hulk's strength is horrendously superior to Invincible's, by feats and by potential. Same goes for Durability and Healing Factor. That being said, his speed and flight are directly dependent of his strength in the first place. If he doesn't posses the strength to hit Hulk with enough force to even make a significant scratch, his other attributes become non factors since he will not be able to put Hulk down, and given Hulk's powerset, he has nigh-unlimited stamina, needs no sustenance and becomes exponentially stronger as the battle prolongs.

He loses because he lacks precisely what Hulk has.

How is Hulk going to fight at all in space? Mark is likely to send Hulk there.

Exactly, that's all he's going to do if miraculously he survives till the point he decides to take Hulk to outerspace, not that he will do it anyways since this Hulk already knows how to deal with people grabbing him/punching him into orbit. Now im going to ask again, how is Invincible putting Hulk down if he lacks the force to do it.

So he was not holding back, but was holding back. That statement contradicts it self. Sentry vs Hulk is never a good benchmark, he was holding back. He has strength superior to Hulk in leaps and bounds, yet we are to accept he burned out vs Hulk? No.

He wasn't holding back. He wasn't pulling a single punch, if there was someone holding back, it was Hulk since he then proves it when turning WBH at the end of the run. He's not stronger than Hulk, and saying he is superior in that department in "leaps and bounds" is an overstatement, a baseless overstatement, since Hulk pretty much drowns Sentry in strength feats. But yet again, that's inconsequential to the argument.

I already said im not going to keep arguing for Sentry, Speed is Speed no matter how you look at it. Sentry tried to tackle him at highspeed and he reacted, period.

Collateral damage is a great way to see and determine how strong a person is. Your argument Hulk is stronger is based on Bias rather than proof. At least Mark has evidence in his corner on feats.

Feats and facts.

Collateral damage is a great way to see and determine how strong a character is, but it's not the only one, which is why your judgement is flawed.

Feats and Facts are still on Hulk's side. If we go by collateral damage Hulk almost sank the East Coast, erased the whole West Side of Las Vegas and busted a planet. You're accusing me of being bias and lacking of proof when that's exactly what you're doing when you ignore the context. In those particular issues, Hulk DIDN'T want to harm innocent people therefore he tried to keep the collateral damage to the minimum...

You even ignored the scans with Sentry when he says "Richards, Stark, All of you! Whatever happens next, its on your heads." Which means he wouldn't be able to stop Sentry from destroying a huge part of Manhattan. But it seems if i don't use collateral damage as an argument for Hulk's strength makes me a bias person that doesn't prove his claims.

Again, all this shows is Hulk is good at holding back. Thats all your proving here. It does not matter his brain is calculating, he only applies to to not hurting people.

Invincible will not hold back. In fact, he will do his best to kill Hulk after the fight goes on, and since Hulk can be stabbed or crushed, I see no reason Invincible with his strength and skill not be able to take out Hulk for a KO.

I don't know how you fail to see Hulk's calculating ability can be use on the offensive as well. If he knows where to hit to not harm people, logically, he also knows where to hit to harm them.

And im starting to notice a pattern here, you're making WAY too much emphasis on Hulk holding back... Let me show you something mate...

1-3) He doesn't really care what damage he does to Arma'Cheddon, he actually killed his son twice. He already knows what his power can do, and after Arma'Cheddon syphoned his powers, he still did it for fun... Again, this Hulk is kind of a psycho and you just don't want to piss him off.

4-5) He kills him because he harmed Betty. So yeah, if pushed to certain point he'll kill you.

Also, let's address your Collateral Damage argument one more time...

Hulk cares too much for his surroundings, he hates himself for causing damage without intention in the past. He doesn't want to be the cause of innocent people being hurt, and since the fight is in the middle of New York and given the fact, apparently, Mark loves to cause collateral damage and you're portraying him as a careless psychopath worse than Deadpool... Hulk will not hold back in the slightest to deliver the blows as long as he puts an end to people's danger... Pretty much like he did to his own son...

Again, Invincible is going to end as a bloody mess like Sentry, like Arma'Cheddon and like Skaar. Making emphasis in that this is a random encounter, Hulk can see him as a villain. GG Invincible.

Invincible will not hold back. In fact, he will do his best to kill Hulk after the fight goes on, and since Hulk can be stabbed or crushed, I see no reason Invincible with his strength and skill not be able to take out Hulk for a KO.

Maybe because Hulk even having huge holes in his chest, Adamantium shrapnel left him like a cheese shredder as well as being stabbed by an Asgardian Sword doesn't seem to put him down, why would Invincible do any better? not to mention, that move is not convenient for Mark at all. Not that i think Mark has any chance of doing such thing with the feats you've shown.

Problem is Hulk could be say 500 tons on average and accomplish those same feats easy. Invincible does not need to get madder to get stronger, he simply is in the 100,000+ range all the time.

How is that a problem, you're contradicting yourself now, first, he always have trouble with them, now he always could beat them easily? This is nonsense.

Hulk went from Banner to almost WBH in 1 panel...

Really, Hulk could power up to any point in literally seconds. He doesn't need to build up his strength at all. GG Invincible.

I already said Invincible is FTL in Space, he is Insanely faster than Quicksilver could hope to be in Earths Atmoshere.

Add to this Invincible will take the fight into space which is very easy as I showed.

He can Toss Hulk, Throw Hulk, Punch Hulk, or Fly Hulk into space for a guaranteed win!

  1. While traveling, what really matters is combat speed, which you haven't shown rather than him having a hard time keeping up with Conquest...
  2. Again, he's not doing it off the bat, not that it will work anyways, how is he planning into killing or KOing someone who far exceeds his strength in durability and his durability in strength.
  3. Nope. He would still need to KO him, and given the fact Hulk would be in outerspace, he will be more than able to cut loose since there will be no innocent people at all. WBH ftw. GG Invincible.

Alot of heat base? What?

Nukes are not heat base only guy, they are tremendous force, the heat is actually less damaging than the shock wave. Same for the Dimensional Blast that blew away the whole port away. Or the fact Invincible tanks and shruggs off attacks from Viltrumites who all are vastly stronger than average Hulk by leagues.

2-5) Invincible coughs off a Thermal Bomb attack that evaporates Las Vegas and glasses the desert.

6) Invincible tanks a dimensional blast that ashes a small army of Mauler Twins, each with super Human Durability in the 20 ton range.

7) Crack jokes during Furnace attacks, who has the body of Magma.

9-11) Invincible shrugs of a Nuke exploding in his face.

Most of them are mainly heat base resistance feats. Literally 4 of them involves major heat resistance instead of blunt force resistance which is Hulk's main way of harming people.

Or the fact Invincible tanks and shruggs off attacks from Viltrumites who all are vastly stronger than average Hulk by leagues.

This is NOT average Hulk... I think i made that clear in my first post.

I really do not care. Earthquak feats may look good, but they are not that special in comics.

Yeah, a guy taking a force of 6.27 million tons to the face is nothing great.

Here is a 200 toner doing the near same thing. Big deal....

There is many factors in earthquake feats too, tectonic plates, stability of the city foundation, type of rock that makes up that area, ect.

The guy didn't cause ANYTHING close to what an Earthquake of 8.0 would've caused. And those factors are irrelevant when what matters is Hulk taking the force in the face.

Also Earthquakes generate more force becuase they are below ground, not above like Hulk did. You cannot post a statement like that when the way the earthquake was done in a completely different way.

Wait wait wait... Earthquakes generate more force because they are underground? That doesn't even make sense! Earthquakes only happen underground, they need to be underground. Saying that is utterly irrelevant because the TNT power conversion still stands... If the punch is generating 8.0 Earthquakes, then the force released by it is 6.27 million tons. Period.

So your seriously going to argue Hulk defies gravity because of a poor WIS scan? What proof he can not be sent flying into space, can hulk defy gravity? Show me that in his bio. You have no real defense here.

If anything, mentioning WIS/PIS/CIS because you disagree with something rather than ask for an explanation is indeed a poor argument.

Im just going to put it in Spoiler Block because it's quite long.

This is the closest one might get into explaining this... It was due to his Gamma energy. Pak's Hulk when becoming angry starts generating HUGE amounts of gamma energy, that the reason why his steps were tearing down the Eastern Seaboard...

As well as disrupting the aerial zone of some recognition copters and damaging other states...

So, in his fight with Skaar, is visible how a green aura is being released every step he makes, that's his Gamma energy...

The same energy he uses against Giant Bi-Beast and Wendigo to punch them...

As well as when he was pretty much one shoting a training robot...

So this is where we're going... Hulk knows how to canalize his Gamma energy in a similar way Bruiser does with his center of Gravity...

This is previously corroborated when fighting Red Hulk and almost one shoting him...

As well as later in the Dark Dimension while thunderclapping Fin Fang Foom into busting Umar's shields...

So THAT'S the reason he managed to take such a huge hit and not fly all the way into orbit and beyond... His Gamma Energy canceled the kinetic energy Skaar gathered. It's not that he can defy gravity, there's an actual explanation for it with multiple on panel proof about it. To be honest, that was quite prepotent of yourself, since you said you were versed with him till Planet Hulk when this happens WAY later.

Whats considered too late? Its in character for mark to do this after getting hit once and hes too fast for Hulk to counter it.

Nobody said it wasn't out of his character, however, does he really launch people into orbit if they don't fly? I haven't seen such thing in all this time, and you've showed people that doesn't fly that fought him on the ground. So i really doubt is in his character to take 1 punch and take the "throw him into space" move right away. Don't get me wrong, im not saying he doesn't throw people into orbit, rather than asking for more proof that he always opts to throw people in space when they don't fly as an off the bat strategy.

Mark is not weak willed like Strange, he kills people in character, and will kill Hulk if Hulk pushes him.Hulk trying to victimize himself vs current Mark will just die easier.

Right, Mark is a psychopath... Anyway, he can't KO Hulk on ground, let alone in space where he would just cut loose knowing there's no way of harming anybody in space.

To sum it up!

  • Mark is lacking the strength, durability, toughness and regeneration factor to contend with this Hulk.
  • Speed alone is NOT enough to take Hulk down.
  • This battle may prolong due to Mark's speed, but that's it, the longer the better for Hulk. This isn't a vice versa case.
  • Hulk Smash.

Aaaaaaand im done too, this one was kind of exhausting to be honest. We can call votes when you're ready mate.

#47 Edited by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Edited by tparks (2351 posts) - - Show Bio

This might be my favorite CAV I've ever read. I'm voting for @cadencev2. He was able to show weak areas in the strongest adaptation there is of Hulk while showcasing the strongest feats of Invincible that would take advantage of Hulk's shortcomings. That is not an easy task to find a single shortcoming of WWH, but I think cadencev2 managed to do so better then anyone I've ever seen do on the battle forums. What's more impressive is that I didn't feel Hulk was being downplayed either, I think he brought some very accurate light to the character and looked at him as a whole, and not just his strong areas that are easy to see because they are shoved right in your face in Hulk comics. As always, his arguments for Invincible are some of the best debating seen on comicvine.

@ghostravage did a great job too. Like most fans of comics, I've read WWH and the corresponding issues countless times and anyone who has been on the battle forums for more then 5 minutes has read everything there is to see about WWH, yet ghostravage was able to present his feats and arguments to the point I still feel like I was learning something new about this highly debated character. It was a very impressive showing with a character that is hard to breathe new life into because of the abundance of threads dedicated to WWH that are filled to the brim with debates. Usually when I read a WWH CAV, I barely even need to read the debate for WWH's side because I've seen it a thousand times, but this was different as I felt I was relearning everything I thought I knew about this character.

#49 Edited by green_skaar (4105 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting for @ghostravage however mad props to @cadencev2 for educating me on Invincible. Really didn't know hardly anything on him and he's a legit heavy-weight.

#50 Posted by Wolverine08 (26713 posts) - - Show Bio
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