CaV: Eisenfauste vs Marvel_Boy2241 .:VOTING:.

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dcandmarvel

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#52  Edited By senglord

@eisenfauste: The fan feat meant he had to move at Least 300mph to clear the blades.

3750/60 = 62.5 rotations per second. And with four blades on the fan, Slade needs to clear his body in less than 1/250 second. The resulting fps is 250-500fps assuming his body is going to be one or two feet of clearance length. That translates to around 160-330 mph travel speed. Outside of Spider-man's normal web swinging speed of 200-250mph. Which is twice normal run speed. It seems moe likely an outlier feat or WIS.

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marvel_boy2241

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#53  Edited By marvel_boy2241

@eisenfauste said:

He was monologuing with a long time adversary. Regardless this is one of his low showings considering he has dodged point blank bullets, jumped between moving fan blades, reacted to speed blitzes from Kid Flash etc etc.

That was their first time meeting because it's New52. He was hit because he under estimated Beast Boy's speed. In other words...he didn't prepare himself for the encounter. It's likely that the same thing would happen here.

Yes it actually was considering that was the only time beast boy has been able to actually get a talon in a seam and actually break the mask...Slade has knocked him around with utter ease while at the same time stomping other titans.

You're speculating. Debris was floating away along with the mask suggesting that it wasn't supposed to come off that way. It's clear that blunt force was the cause of the mask coming off. Blunt force has caused the mask to come off other times too. Pre52 BB was a jobber for sure, and was much younger. He hardly ever used his power to the full scope. It's CIS. He should easily beat DS.

The venom was affecting his pain tolerance and durability considering Slade has laughed off a blast from Starfire straight to his chest. To put it in perspective her blasts have shattered car's and he takes it without a sound, mind you the blast penetrated the armor as can be seen by splintered armor pieces flying in all directions.

The venom did no such thing. It only enhances humans and takes away their fear of death. + a weird voice.Thesewere the side affects batman was talking about. Decreased durability of armor is not one of the side effects. Neither is decreased pain tolerance. Unless you can find me a scan that says otherwise. What happened with Starfire doesn't matter. He could have been trying to put on a show (which he does a lot). Who knows? Plus that's not even the same armor from N52.

He also has been hit by people around batman's strength level or higher than his without yelling in pain.

Yeah and in that scan you posted, he is actually bleeding from his mouth after a hit from Batman. Yet, he is somehow extremely durable? Also, just because you don't howl in pain doesn't mean you don't feel pain. He kept his composure but was still in pain. Pain tolerance would have to be explicitly stated in scans.

Regardless Sp0ck's talons cannot and will not cut through slades armor. In order to bypass his suit's durability with a slashing weapon i.e. talons, it takes a ridiculous amount of skill and precision in order to literally slice between the seams of his armor.

I never said they would. I was only pointing out that he does use them to slash and cut in an offensive manner...because you said that he didn't. And there is one sword that can bypass the armor...

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I told you before, his Promethean sword is just the thing SpOck could use if his fists don't work, which nothing suggests they shouldn't. Also note DS screaming in agony.

So even if Sp0ck somehow bypassed his suit Slade will laugh off the hit and continue to fight as if nothing has happened due to his ridiculous pain tolerance.

Please show me where it's stated that DS has this pain tolerance and to what degree. Also pain tolerance wont matter if SpOck bypasses the mask. Slade wont be able to laugh without a jaw.

Incorrect. Deathstroke is a long time enemy of the Teen Titans and has had a multitude of battles with the TT Beast Boy included.

No, I'm correct. That scan is N52 meaning that was their first time meeting each other.

The shattered pieces are the area's that directly latch onto the front face mask of his helmet. It was wrenched off by the point of a long talon getting between the seam and ripping the mask off. If it was a punch that shattered the mask than yes, blunt force damage. But it was not it was a wrenching motion.

Well, i already showed you other instances of pure blunt force taking the mask off. So that makes it even more likely that BB took it off with blunt force. It's clear that regardless of a claw, it takes blunt force to take the mask off. I've shown this with multiple scans.

Here is Peter going all out on none other than Wolverine. You can't argue with his physical punching power and strength level which from the time of this incident to current comics hasn't changed by much if at all.

Yes I can. Those scans you've posted are from 1987. Well here's some scans from 1989.

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So here he's pretty much wrecking these small tanks. It's not fair to say that because of an old fight with Wolvy that he can only destroy a car. A car, seriously lol?

First scan is Slade getting his armor shattered by Lobo, someone who has the strength and punching power to hurt Superman on a consistent basis. But to put some context on this the Lobo fighting Slade was a clone of his former self and not only that it is shown on panel that Lobo's power fluctuates heavily so that feat is unquantifiable considering we don't know his exact strength level. But if it means anything the lobo on panel was casually putting his hand through armored mercenaries heads. Here is the scan of his fluctuating power level's

Lobo-clone hasn't ever fought Superman in N52 because he is significantly weaker than his Pre52 counterpart (an explosion stopped him). And the feat does apply because we do know he is stronger than Slade but not as strong as Superman. Just because we don't know his exact strength level doesn't mean it doesn't apply. It's just another example of how pure blunt force can break the mask. It's probable that at significant punch SpOck could break the mask.

So far you have shown me a character with x amount of strength breaking slades mask which btw Slade tanked several of his punches in that comic.

What do you mean tank? He nearly lost. He would have lost if he hadn't used explosives to win. He even admitted that without the armor he would have been dead. He only escaped Lobo's grip by hitting him in the nuts--a cheep shot at best.

Second scan is Deadborn who has the strength to hit through car's. This is someone who has shown much more powerful hitting power than Pete can summon up i.e. smashing through a car while not even going all out.

Cracking the mask alone is a feat. And since when does smashing a car make you stronger than Spider-man? Deadborn did nothing in that entire issue that was more impressive than Spidey. Simple as that.

Sp0ck doesn't have a sword does he? Nor does he have the skill or precision with a blade to replicate this feat so I don't see why you are bringing it up.

Honestly there is no excuse for this one. The fact that an old man--no matter how skilled--has the speed to out-maneuver DS proves my point. SpOck could easily snatch that Promethean sword right outa Slades hand for sure. It's cutting power is just the thing to cut into DS. And this is all assuming SpOck can't do it with his bare hands.

Deathstroke does not need plenty of rest and has his fair share of random encounters with opponents. As can be seen by this scan he takes on 3 jobs in two weeks and pushes his healing factor to the limit by not sleeping. Slade also prep's to take on teams that would manhandle pete in a random encounter and possibly Slade himself for that matter, i.e. the Teen Titans. One of Slades random encounters was with Legacy who has the strength to throw a nuclear submarine, he also held him at bay and finished the job he was on.

Go back and read the scan. It wasn't Slade who was talking about doing 3 jobs in two weeks. It was that old guy. All that you said about people DS beats means nothing. You already know what his rouges would to to DS. And he didn't beat Legacy with his random encounter skills. He literally had to run away to regroup. He used an EMP to win. He had to prepare,because none of his gear was useful.

How would Slade even prep to dodge Kid Flash when he doesn't even know which angle or speed he will be attacked at? Slade didn't prep to dodge Kid Flash he used his reflexes to dodge him which we have seen him consistently do in their fights. You prep to take on a team, you don't and can't prep to dodge a speedster. In that fight Slades prep pretty much only included bringing a comrade that was as enhanced as he is.

The fact that he knew Kid Flash's powers changes everything completely. Imagine if he had no idea what he was up against. Instead he got a full file on their powers. It's simply not the same as someone who has no idea what's gonna hit them within the next second. DS does nearly all his jobs with time to prepare. Here he has no prep, which might cause him to underestimate, which is something he's done in the past.

1. First scan is Pete with the symbiote which gives him an amp more than usual in that comic arc "Back in Black". So that feat isn't applicable.

No it doesn't This is a common misconception.

This scan really only shows that Slade and pete have equal and comparable showings against speedsters though Slade has more consistent ones. All in all it doesn't mean Sp0ck will be any faster than slade based on Pete's showings with 1 or 2 speedsters.

The only speedster DS ever faced was Kid Flash. Someone who doesn't have very much training and who DS has had time to learn.

Slade has tanked bullets that have punched through his armor and survived you know that right? And Sp0ck without armor would be highly vulnerable to bullet's considering he didn't survive getting shot by one so I don't see the point of this. Regardless Slade's HF has shown to heal his body from bullet wounds, getting stabbed by swords, or his face pulverized by enemies, Alexand Luthor--

Show me scans of him tanking bullet wounds. Whenever I see him get shot, he bleeds like everyone else. SpOck wont give him time to heal from any serious injuries. DS was lucky to survive that encounter with Luthor. Luthor could have ripped his head off but chose not to. And how do we know the armor doesn't make him slower? Most of his bullet dodging feats are from N52 before he got the Nth Metal armor. That would explain why he doesn't fight any speedsters in N52. And speaking of bullets...

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^What's to stop him from doing that? Or this....?

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The fact that he survived getting a 18,000 ton submarine tossed on him, Sp0ck would be splattered, is a testament to his durability. This comment does not counter the fact that Slade has way better durability than Sp0ck by a massive amount.

Ok but then you can't say he tanked it. You say he nearly died but survived. Tanking is when you do it without any real issue. Who cares if he's more durable? SpOck can get past it with his strength, especially when others have don it, with the scans I've already posted.

So......yes he did actually continue fighting and took out an opponent superior to him in everyway by being a tactical genius. This was again a random encounter.

That's not really "fighting." He hit and ran away into a submarine in order to use an EMP. Legacy wasn't even being serious. If it was a legit fight he wouldn't have had to constantly run away. He used the time he got by running away to prepare. A real random encounter would imply that he had the tools to beat him already on hand.

He also didn't run away from a bloodlusted Beast Boy he casually dodges BB's repeated attempts to kill him until BB knocked a pillar on himself.

Yes he pretty much did. He had no real way to attack. This is why he was in defensive mode for the entire ordeal...

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I'ts pretty clear that DS was in over his head and underestimated BB. Logically a person that can transform into extra-terrestrials, mystical creatures, and any animal he can imagine, should never have an issue with an enhanced human. DS wouldn't have won that fight.

You're missing the context to the scan you posted. It clearly states can operate as much as 40x faster than a human. Meaning going full out he can move faster by 40x the normal human speed. He can chose how fast he reacts to an opponent dictating the necessity of said reaction. I agree Sp0ck will act accordingly once he see's how dangerous Slade actually is, but then it's only going to be a matter of time before Sp0ck get's tagged by Slades sword.

OK. I think you are missing the context. A reflex isn't something that you can choose to amp up. it's simply no in your control. Here is the actual definition of reflex, courtesy of Google

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He can't think to himself "Uh I guess I'm gonna use my medium reflexes because right now my high reflexes are unnecessary" Reflexes aren't something that you can just pick out like candy in a store, and that's bydefinition. They're there or they're not.

Spider-sense doesn't mean a thing when you are facing a fast and skilled opponent. Just look up the multiple battles Pete has had with wolverine and you will see that he gets tagged once the fight progresses regardless of his spider-sense. Wolverine and Slade are roughly on the same level in terms of reflexes and speed with Slade edging him out slightly based on their showings. Sp0ck will dodge slashes from Deathstroke but not long enough to take out Slade before he slashes him in two with his blade.

I'm calling bs on this one lol. It's pretty common knowledge that Spidey is better than Wolverine in every way except durability. Sound familiar? Wolverine is simply not faster than Spider-man. The only reason why this is ever tolerated is because the two are the poster boys for Marvel. Spider-man has better showings, therefore it's PIS or WIS whenever something like that happens. Go back and read what I posted about spider-sense. Nothing Slade has done with that sword suggests he is even remotely fast enough.

I didn't say he was faster than Spider-man but based on his showings before the enhancements, taking out a team of highly trained mercs before they can take him down, dodging an explosion, he is in Pete's department. As can be seen by his casual bullet dodges, deflections, diving in between industrial fan blades reacting to Kid Flash etc. He didn't tag flash as I stated before he put his blade where he knew Flash would be hence Flash ended up getting stabbed. But against Kid Flash he has the reflexes to dodge and counter attack at the same time.

The Flash feat is just clear and cut WIS, PIS, or CIS. Pick one lol. Flash can move FTL and would have seen DS reaching for the sword. DS is known for these kinds of feats and they jsut don't make any logical sense. But regardless,

It is a choice to react differently like I stated. Grabbing a blow by an average human requires almost no reflexes because he is moving just enough to catch the said blow. But putting out his arm to stop QS requires him to react as fast as he can possibly move in order to stop him.

Yeah this part is true. But he isn't doing that by choice. His body just does it on it's own. Spidey's body is better than Slade's in every way possible minus healing factor. And HF isn't all that inmportant here since it wont act fast enough.

Being unarmed and taking on a team of merc's with guns, stun batons, and explosives shows he has reactions that are triple that or more of the average human.

At best he was peak human. Being multiple and multiple times faster than the average would start putting him at super-human. I'm pretty sure he was at most double of what a human is. We can really only speculate. One thing's for sure is that he's nowhere near 40x faster than a normal human.

Prep or not he moved as fast as he could think. Which is a good speed feat on his part.

No he didn't. The speed of thought goes near speed of light and certainly faster than sound. DS would have to be a speedster for this to be true. it's obvious that a writer misspoke. OR DS was just trying to scare BB.

Sp0ck has yet to display the amount of force it would take to destroy armor that has survived mostly intact a hit from a submarine and surviving the epicentre of two bomb blasts without a scratch. Sp0ck is severely lacking in the punching department to hurt slade. Like I showed you Pete going had his punches being stated as being able to wreck vehicles. Slade deals with bombs that would turn cars into shrapnel without a problem.

SpOck has the body of someone who has traded blows with the Hulk. We are talking about a suit that was in crumbled after the submarine explosion. Being at the epicenter of a blast doesn't mean you took the blast full on. On top of this we would have to ignore every single time someone has gotten past the durability with ease either with a kick or a simple punch. You better believe that Spider-man can wreck much more than a car.

My fingers are sore from typing lol. @eisenfauste
My fingers are sore from typing lol. @eisenfauste

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Eisenfauste

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#54  Edited By Eisenfauste

That was their first time meeting because it's New52. He was hit because he under estimated Beast Boy's speed. In other words...he didn't prepare himself for the encounter. It's likely that the same thing would happen here.

He actually was prepared because he took down the entire team of Ravagers most of which are superhuman or have superpowers and he did it rather easily. He was playing with his food which he usually does when facing weaker opponents than him. Once BB hit him he dodged every other hit made by BB after that. It isn't likely because once he see's the speed and strength that Sp0ck possesses he will be serious, plus its a random encounter he only messes around when he has prep and understands his enemy. When he had his first random encounter with Deadborn he didn't underestimate anything, he used every trick and skill he could use to defeat him at the time. In this situation he won't underestimate he will be focused.

You're speculating. Debris was floating away along with the mask suggesting that it wasn't supposed to come off that way. It's clear that blunt force was the cause of the mask coming off

Here is how his new52 mask works.

As you can see the mask flips up and it latches on the top the helmet, while sealing up along the seam.

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Now as can be seen when he gets his mask off the top of the latch is one of the pieces that you see get shattered when it is forcibly ripped off.

Seen here.

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Decreased durability of armor is not one of the side effects.

As I said before he kicked him at a joint that wasn't totally covered by armor, i.e. behind the knee.

Neither is decreased pain tolerance

Actually it is quite apparent he has a weakened pain tolerance considering he has been stabbed by a swords without complaint, as I have shown you, has tanked a blast from Starfire which pierced his armor also without complaint. What happened with her does matter, he gets his armor pierced with a burst of energy that easily shatters cars. Why would he want to put on a show considering in the next scan he used a flash bang to escape. And in the above scan gets bloodied by BB without complaint. By consistent pain tolerance showings the venom was affecting his tolerance.

Yeah and in that scan you posted, he is actually bleeding from his mouth after a hit from Batman. Yet, he is somehow extremely durable?

Slade isn't impervious to blunt trauma. Don't underestimate Batman he has punched through concrete and kicked a tree in half both of which are some serious striking feats for him. His armor is what lends him his ridiculous durability even though he himself is can take a lot of damage which I have shown you throughout this CAV.

Well, i already showed you other instances of pure blunt force taking the mask off. So that makes it even more likely that BB took it off with blunt force. It's clear that regardless of a claw, it takes blunt force to take the mask off. I've shown this with multiple scans.

Yes blunt force can destroy the mask as can be seen multiple times. But the instances you have shown are foe's who are either stronger, more skilled, or we flat out don't know their strength level, punching through his mask. It can be broken but Sp0ck doesn't have the punching feats to do it considering it has taken far more damage than Superior can dish out to break it.

I told you before, his Promethean sword is just the thing SpOck could use if his fists don't work, which nothing suggests they shouldn't.

I have shown you that it will indeed take more than what Sp0ck has at his disposal, physically, because at best he can bust cars with his punches. Slade tanks building busting explosions, hits from more powerful opponents, submarines dropped on him etc. The fight will be over before Sp0ck takes the sword. Sp0ck has faced many opponents with weapons before, some even more powerful than him, and he has never used one of their weapons against them. He uses the environment, prep, strength, webs etc. to take down an opponent. Like I said if he knew the potential of the sword I could see him using at........as is all he will know is that his talons won't pierce the armor so why would a mere sword do the job.

Please show me where it's stated that DS has this pain tolerance and to what degree.

By looking at his feats we can see his pain tolerance. To reiterate pain tolerance is a characters ability to take damage and continue to fight even though they may be lacking blood, limbs, bone durability.

Seen above he gets stabbed by the leader of the sasukade clan and continues to fight.

Scan 1: He gets stabbed by Legacy after having a submarine dropped on him, yet continues to fight and beats Legacy in the end.

Scan 2: He gets pinned by an enhanced member of the sasukade clan, Slade Wilson gets in his head and uses the warriors emotions to turn him against his fellow ninja's. Deathstroke again goes on to win in that scenario.

As I have displayed Deathstroke is able to shake off blood loss, and damage to organs and bone structures and continue to fight, which is pain tolerance. And by feats Slade has a lot of it.

So here he's pretty much wrecking these small tanks. It's not fair to say that because of an old fight with Wolvy that he can only destroy a car. A car, seriously lol?

Where in those scan's is Peter punching through the tank's? We are talking about striking feats here. These scans show peter picking them up and throwing them around........which is a strength feat not a striking feat. In those scan's you have shown me Peter picking up a tank of unquantifiable tonnage and smashing it into the ground. What is most interesting about the tank's durability is we can see him wrecking a tank by throwing it through a brick building. Since when have bricks been strong enough for a tank to shatter on it? The tanks durability is laughable considering it wasn't tough enough to go through a brick building without shattering. Peter's best striking feats are able to shatter cars not tanks.

Lobo-clone hasn't ever fought Superman in N52 because he is significantly weaker than his Pre52 counterpart (an explosion stopped him). And the feat does apply because we do know he is stronger than Slade but not as strong as Superman. Just because we don't know his exact strength level doesn't mean it doesn't apply. It's just another example of how pure blunt force can break the mask.

It does show that blunt trauma can damage the armor. But considering we don't know how powerful the lobo clone is we can't quantify how strong he is and attempt to roughly correlate that to striking power. The feat itself is regardless a non-factor in this fight considering we don't know how powerful he is in relation to Spider-man.

What do you mean tank?

Deathstroke's Nth metal armor was able to hold up against several of Lobo's blows before cracking that is what I meant by tanking his hits.

Deadborn did nothing in that entire issue that was more impressive than Spidey. Simple as that.

Casually wrecking a car and flat out saying he isn't even going all against Slade speaks volumes toward his strength and skill level which by feats put him above Pete.

Honestly there is no excuse for this one. The fact that an old man--no matter how skilled--has the speed to out-maneuver DS proves my point.

Skill is absolutely a deciding factor against an opponent who is faster than you, Sp0ck has experience but not close in h2h skill like this "old man" does. Slade isn't just reacting and using enhanced reflexes to outmaneuver Kid Flash he is using skill. How do you think Batman is able to touch Deathstroke at all in a close in h2h fight? It's because he is way more skilled than Slade. Numerous times Batman has read an opponent's fighting style or moves and is able to discern what martial arts style is the best counter and even read where his opponent is going to dodge or strike next.

Scan 1: Batman knows every violent martial art, Slade only knows several. Which shows the how outclassed slade is in terms of skill.

Scan 2: Batman uses skill and strategy to put an opponent where he wants them to be and strike.

Skill is very important and can actually give you an edge against a faster opponent. The Sasukade clan leader has both of those on his side and was able to use them to his advantage and stab Slade.

SpOck could easily snatch that Promethean sword right outta Slades hand for sure. It's cutting power is just the thing to cut into DS. And this is all assuming SpOck can't do it with his bare hands.

Again Sp0ck doesn't know what the sword can do he won't be making a grab for it. What makes more sense is him trying to web spam Slade or throwing him around via webs. Using an unknown weapon against it's owner is not something Sp0ck does consistently in character.

Go back and read the scan. It wasn't Slade who was talking about doing 3 jobs in two weeks. It was that old guy.

Christoph, the old guy, was up with Slade for those 3 jobs that they did. During that comic not once does Slade get rest even by himself he is continually doing something. Christoph even mentions it must be nice having a healing factor that is able to cancel out sleep deprivation, which Slade is using. But in two different panel's we can see the HF straining to keep up with him as can be seen by his hand shaking.

And he didn't beat Legacy with his random encounter skills. He literally had to run away to regroup

He did beat him using his random encounter skill's, how do you think he came out on top against an opponent that tosses around Submarines as if they are toys? Of course he had to regroup against an opponent physically much more powerful and durable than he is. Making an EMP out of submarine reactor scraps easily shows just how resourceful and skilled Slade is in a random encounter.

Imagine if he had no idea what he was up against. Instead he got a full file on their powers. It's simply not the same as someone who has no idea what's gonna hit them within the next second

Random encounters are different than prepared encounters you are correct. The difference is I have shown that Slade is both resourceful and focused in random encounters. He has the skill, speed, and durability to hang with Superior Spider-man and figure out his experience and tech that he has brought to the battle. On the same token Sp0ck doesn't know how fast and deadly Slade is in this random encounter. It's sufficient to say both opponents will surprise each other in this battle which is to be expected.

Here he has no prep, which might cause him to underestimate, which is something he's done in the past.

No. Prep doesn't mean anything when I have shown you two clear instances where he is thrust into a random encounter and deals with his opponent with the utmost ruthlessness he can bring to bear. If anything he was underestimating his opponent in a prepped situation, i.e. Beast Boy getting a punch in, he act's quite differently when he isn't holding all the cards.

The only speedster DS ever faced was Kid Flash. Someone who doesn't have very much training and who DS has had time to learn.

Slade has also faced Flash but I won't go into that because its a grey area. You don't train to run fast, you simply are fast. How would Kid Flash be trained? He has lot's of experience using his power set against multiple enemies. He uses that experience and speed in an attempt to stop Slade, which fails everytime. Slade knows his power set but he can't prep for which angle Kid Flash will attack him at or at which speed. He uses his raw reactions and speed to outmaneuver and counter attack against a known speedster. For the record Kid Flash has caught a bullet after it's fired while not even being in the same area it was fired atm, disassembled a car, read an entire library of book in minutes etc. And yet Deathstroke has the skill and reflexes to hang with him.

Show me scans of him tanking bullet wounds. Whenever I see him get shot, he bleeds like everyone else.

The context of my use of "tank" was meant to be used to imply that he shrugs off bullet wounds.

And how do we know the armor doesn't make him slower? Most of his bullet dodging feats are from N52 before he got the Nth Metal armor. That would explain why he doesn't fight any speedsters in N52. And speaking of bullets...

The armor doesn't make him slower because a good majority of his bullet dodging feats are in the New-52. I think you meant pre-52 and even then he had Nth metal chainmail which is why he is able to survive high calibre bullet impacts from close up

Seen here.

Sorry about the bad quality. He is shot numerous times by a high calibre rifle and the bullet's are only able to dimple his chainmail.

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^What's to stop him from doing that? Or this....?

Alright the first scan shows Sp0ck taking vital seconds to increase his durability to help stop bullet's. There is no point for him to use that in this battle considering Slade will be out of bullets when Sp0ck gets up close and CQC will commence, not to mention his sword would cut through the webbing effortlessly considering it has cut through things just as durable or more so.

You're second scan shows a web spam and I am surprised you didn't bring this to the table earlier in the debate. I honestly see that being an irritant at best for Slade. I believe I neglected to show one other thing Slade carries on his person which will aid him in escaping a web spam.

He has a wrist gauntlet blade that he can active which can help him get out of any webbing he get's in.

Ignore the blatant PIS of low calibre bullets piercing the armor, several panels down you can see a wrist activated blade that he stabs the female with.

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If he get's webbed up he could easily activate the blade and cut through the webbing. Not only that but the scan you showed show's Sp0ck using a web incap in close quarters. The last time an opponent was jumping and flipping around him, a much faster one (Kid Flash), he ended up kicking them away from him pretty casually. With the stipulations of "moral's off" for this fight I don't see Sp0ck using a web incap as much as trying to physically beat Deathstroke into paste which he will try to do.

Ok but then you can't say he tanked it. You say he nearly died but survived. Tanking is when you do it without any real issue.

Tanking something is when you survive getting hit or attacked by whatever said character has just "tanked". It's been used in context from wolverine tanking a nuke all the way to Pete tanking a sniper round (for a duration). Soaking damage is used to mean that a character effortlessly takes damage. The context I used that term with here was meant to show Slade survived a submarine being dropped on him.

SpOck can get past it with his strength, especially when others have don it, with the scans I've already posted.

Sp0ck can't get past it with his limited striking power, strength and striking power do not correlate exactly. You are using ABC logic here, just because different characters have managed to do it with widely fluctuating skill set's and power level's does not mean that Sp0ck is able to do it and by feats he can't.

That's not really "fighting." He hit and ran away into a submarine in order to use an EMP. Legacy wasn't even being serious. If it was a legit fight he wouldn't have had to constantly run away. He used the time he got by running away to prepare. A real random encounter would imply that he had the tools to beat him already on hand.

Dropping a bomb on someone and preparing an EMP to beat a physically stronger opponent is fighting. Serious or not he took some crushing hits from Legacy and survived the encounter. Also a real random encounter mean's that you are not prepared and thus do not necessarily have the tool's on hand to defeat an opponent with.

Yes he pretty much did. He had no real way to attack. This is why he was in defensive mode for the entire ordeal...

He was dodging every attempt by BB to hit him after Beast landed the first strike. He wasn't trying to attack Beast Boy anyway he had a specific knife that teleported members of the Ravagers to another location. He was biding his time waiting for an opportunity to transport BB, just because he didn't pounce on him and teleport him away doesn't mean he is unable to handle him.

OK. I think you are missing the context. A reflex isn't something that you can choose to amp up. it's simply no in your control. Here is the actual definition of reflex, courtesy of Google

I understand what a reflex is. What Peter said in that scan was I can have the reflexes as much as 40x a normal person. Meaning depending on the situation he can move anywhere from 10x to 40x a normal human being. In this scenario Sp0ck is going to see an opponent of unspecified skill's and abilities that he is trying to kill. Sp0ck isn't going to be dodging everything as fast as possible, his reflexes are dictated by the speed at which an object is coming toward him. In other words he will react fast enough to dodge it but won't be necessarily always reacting to everything at 40x a human being. In other words like I have said this battle will be based on inevitability, where Slade's durability will allow him to last long enough to get some strikes in which will be enough to slow or kill Sp0ck outright.

I'm calling bs on this one lol. It's pretty common knowledge that Spidey is better than Wolverine in every way except durability.Sound familiar? Wolverine is simply not faster than Spider-man.

Actually this is a misconception. Wolverine is infinitely better skilled being one of the best martial artist's on Marvel Earth. He has knowledge of a plethora of pressure points which he has utilized against physically more powerful opponents. Not to mention he knows and has used pressure points against a member of an alien species, a Strontian by the name of Kid Gladiator. He also has mastered almost every fighting discipline on the planet. Not to mention Wolverine has a better damage output than Pete, for example his adamantium claw's which has pierced Hulk who eat's Nuclear explosions for breakfast. The only thing Pete has on Wolvie is strength, webs, and speed, although Logan is not lacking in that department being a known bullet dodger and speed blitzer of opponents similar to him. The only reason Pete isn't dead in their encounters is because Wolverine holds back by not using his claws in their battles. He has cut him before.

Go back and read what I posted about spider-sense. Nothing Slade has done with that sword suggests he is even remotely fast enough.

Like I said it's a battle of the inevitable. Will Sp0ck dodge his sword swipes? Yes he will. Will he dodge them all when Slade begins to anticipate his opponent? No he won't and one slice of the sword will be all that's required to bring this battle to a close.

The Flash feat is just clear and cut WIS, PIS, or CIS. Pick one lol. Flash can move FTL and would have seen DS reaching for the sword. DS is known for these kinds of feats and they jsut don't make any logical sense. But regardless.

Deathstroke anticipated his opponent and already had his sword out. He isn't faster than him at all, he simply knew where his opponent was and put the sword out at the exact right time. What I was showing by the scan was Slade's ability to anticipate his opponent and know what they will do next. It wasn't meant as a speed feat.

One thing's for sure is that he's nowhere near 40x faster than a normal human.

Jumping in between the 4 blades of a fan rotating at 3,750+ rpm say's otherwise. I don't believe he is 40x faster than a normal human being. But by his feats he is not far behind and his overall cqc skill he has over Sp0ck should make up for any disparity they have in speed.

No he didn't. The speed of thought goes near speed of light and certainly faster than sound. DS would have to be a speedster for this to be true. it's obvious that a writer misspoke. OR DS was just trying to scare BB.

The speed of thought is no where near Light Speed. We are able to at best think and perceive at 1/10 of a second. Here is a link to an article that explains it, here. By his speed feats of crossing a room faster than a person can think to speak (Black Canary), and again jumping between a fan shows that his speed moving as fast as he can think is pretty consistent.

SpOck has the body of someone who has traded blows with the Hulk. We are talking about a suit that was in crumbled after the submarine explosion. Being at the epicenter of a blast doesn't mean you took the blast full on. On top of this we would have to ignore every single time someone has gotten past the durability with ease either with a kick or a simple punch. You better believe that Spider-man can wreck much more than a car.

Hulk was holding back in every single one of those battles. A mere thunderclap of his is able to shatter tanks, and has been described as a small nuclear explosion. If Hulk was really fighting Pete he would be dead, considering he has been caught by Bruce several times yet Hulk doesn't squish him like he is quite capable of. Anytime he was hit, Hulk pulled his punches considering weaker incarnations of him have punched through mountains, nuclear resistant bunkers etc.

Epicenter: a focal point, as of activity.

Source: Dictionary.com

He was at the source of the blast both times he walked them off without a scratch. People more skilled have bypassed the suit's durability but Sp0ck is not skilled in any martial art to do so. Again by physical punching power he is only at best able to wreck car's Slades durability has tanked hits from far stronger foe's and held up and has taken hit from building busting blasts without a problem. His armor won't be breached by Sp0ck's punches or anything he throw's his way.

Alright @marvel_boy2241 nice debate mate. I'm going to open this one up to voting and kick things off if you don't mind. How about we wait a day or so and then tally the votes up?

Voting

Rules: You must first read both sides of the argument. Put out your vote based on which user you believe best argued their stance and provided the better counter's and overall argument.

@jokerpoker@dcandmarvel@beware_my_power@ninjawarrior268@jacthripper@easternwind@jaken7@hammer_of_j2@boringperson@stormdriven@cable_extreme@cosmicallyaware1@senglord

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marvel_boy2241

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@eisenfauste: Alright. I wish I coulda responded to the above but it's all good. Le rock. Voting's open.

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@eisenfauste: it works lol. Good arguments by both I'm going to have to go with @marvel_boy2241 and Sp0ck

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#59  Edited By Eisenfauste
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#60  Edited By frozen  Moderator

Eisenfauste my vote, simply the better debater. He put more detail into his argument, and did more dubunking and applied context and often corrected his opponent, however I sensed one WIS feat being used and Marvelboy did dig down on the points that Eisenfauste fell up on.

I'll be back for a FULL anaylsis but my vote remains the same, I need more words to say why.

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#62  Edited By Eisenfauste

@jacthripper: Thanks for voting.

@frozen Looking forward to it, any constructive criticism you may want to add is also welcome :)

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#64  Edited By Hubris_exe
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@eisenfauste@marvel_boy2241 I really liked the debate guys. However, in the end marve boy was more convincing and was able to prove Sp0ck was more than enough for Deathstroke

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Both of you guys had a great debate, and represented your characters very well. You did a great job @marvel_boy2241, but my vote goes to @eisenfauste. I felt he did a better job presenting/supporting his argument overall, although marvelboy did a good job with his counters.

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@eisenfauste: You get my vote for the better debate. You were able to present a stronger point for Slade to deal with the types of damage that SpOck could dish out. I actually looked up the specific abilities of the nth metal that Slade was using for new 52. It increased his strength, speed, and durability in a similar manner to Hawkman. But, to a lesser degree. It was the symbiosis that MAY have caused his issues in the Kyle Higgins arc. The Batman used in the Deathstroke fight scan was Dick Grayson, a much less skilled opponent than Bruce Wayne. If @Marvel_Boy2241 had chomped on that bit, this would have been a different vote. Deathstroke never looked so serious, nor took as much damage from a peak human in pre 52, as he seemed to in that fight. (Making a great case for Johns force at work in the Titans East arc.)

@marvel_boy2241: this was a much better CAV than the first one. It was informative enough for me to actually change position on some threads regarding Spider-man's ability to web incapacitate. The key things that got @eisenfauste the vote was that he pointed out that Slade can move(reflex) as fast as a human thinks(150mph). This is still much less in terms of reflex than Spider-Man's 40x faster than normal. It is however enough to survive striking speed that is 15x faster than a normal human (225x more powerful). You did a great job deconstructing the submarine feat as well as starting to deal with the sword deflection feat. There is still going to be a lot of debate of how this match would go, and people should get steered here for an idea of how to present arguments. Your scans and effects are pretty good as well.

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Eisenfauste

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@senglord: Thanks for voting and effort put into your analysis of the debate :)

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#72  Edited By Easternwind
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Both Guys were good debaters My vote goes to @eisenfauste he had good Knowledge on both characters and brought up good arguments which were more reasonable

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dcandmarvel

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@eisenfauste: Both Guys were good debaters My vote goes to @eisenfauste he had good Knowledge on both characters and brought up good arguments which were more reasonable

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#76  Edited By Eisenfauste
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#77  Edited By senglord

Pm me for the winner.

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Eisenfauste

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@senglord: Will do. It may take a while since people are neglecting to vote on this for some reason :P.

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@eisenfauste: Both Guys were good debaters My vote goes to @eisenfauste he had good Knowledge on both characters and brought up good arguments which were more reasonable

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@darthaznable: Lol this is one of 2 inconclusive debates I've had with another user