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#1 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

VS

This is Hal Jordan the Green Lantern (Pre 52 and New 52 feats) vs Mark Grayson aka Invincible (Current) and this is the battle for the title Guardian of Earth.

  • Morals On and In Character. Both are fighting to win at all cost within those Morals.
  • Death or KO.
  • Random Encounter.
  • Start 100 feet apart.

Battle takes place in the Himalayas skies.

#2 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Posted by AllStarSuperman (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

looks good. ive wondered this before

#4 Edited by SheenLantern (6142 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweet, I've been waiting to learn more about Pre-52 Hal.

#5 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman: This could be a good @k4tzm4n Weekly Battle question. We need another mid tier/high tier battle (Nudge nudge)

#6 Posted by AllStarSuperman (19494 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Edited by Shawnbaby (10387 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman: This could be a good @k4tzm4n Weekly Battle question. We need another mid tier/high tier battle (Nudge nudge)

There's nothing stopping you from making your own Battle of The Week.

#8 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw said:

@allstarsuperman: This could be a good @k4tzm4n Weekly Battle question. We need another mid tier/high tier battle (Nudge nudge)

There's nothing stopping you from making your own Battle of The Week.

..... This is very true :) I like to post this one, or one like it, as a Battle of the Week. Problem is trying to find that Balance for higher Tier characters. I always thought Aquaman was a close match to Thing until recently when I seen his current New 52 respect thread where he is lifting 1000+ tons! He would have decimated Thing if I knew that back then.

I noticed DC and Marvel High Tier are very hard to gauge from the other. Most of DC has Speed Blitzing abilities with planet feats, and most of Marvel have a form of Psychic, or Reality Warping lol. Same when adding in Image, Dark Horse, ect companies to the mix.

#9 Edited by Auction_Sniper (1239 posts) - - Show Bio

Love the Invincible picture.

#10 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: Looks pretty awesome! Feel free to start off if you'd like!

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#11 Posted by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#12 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: Thank you my friend! My knowledge on (current) Invincible is extremely limited so I'm excited to get schooled :P

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#13 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: Alright. Now Hal, to my knowledge, is not in the same strength levels or Wonder Woman or Superman from what I know. Hal is tough none the less, but has had his Shields broken to constant beatings non the less. Invincible on this site is said to be weaker than say Wonder Woman or Black Adam. I say this is false. Some examples of this strength.

1-2) Benches 400 tons with little problem.

3) Fissures the planet to stop a army in its tracks.

4-5) Lifts what can be calculated close to 500-600 tons of stone.

6) Pulps a Super Human Durable Angstrom.

7) Thunder Claps Sequids away.

8) Easily rips apart Doctor Octopus arms apart in a official Marvel Team Up title. Last time I check his arms were Carbonadium or Secondary Adamantium. Clarification may be needed for that.

Most of this is Early Invincible or his weaker feats. Like the Bench Pressing 400 tons. He can Bench 400 tons comfortably, yet he has the strength of Multi Thousand Ton damage way after this. Omni Man told his son that with age he will become stronger and by working out he will get way stronger. This shows.

1-2) Invincible has flatten mountains and crated his own Grand Canyons with his strength.

3-4) A weaker earlier Invincible and one other weaker Viltrumite lifted and pushed, and held up from sinking, a Large Cruise Liner 3 miles straight. That is 100,00+ tons of weight without passengers. With people, luggage, crew, and taking on water (Flooding) its more 250,000 tons.

5) Again a weaker and less experience Invincible slams Allen with enough force to crater and dust a good size portion of the Moon.

6-7) Invincible hits with such force that the shock wave sends flying Construction Workers and all the heavy steel, concrete, ect debris.

All this are Super Man worthy feats. These are insane showings of strength that is way over 400 tons. One more set of showing of strength is feats from the likes of Conquest and Omni Man. Both super strong Viltrumites that Invincible is equal to.

1-3) Conquest is encased in 400 tons of steel. Unable to move. Added to this is a Implosion device if he moves. Conquest not only smashes out of this with a flex of his muscles, he does so easy. Now most take this as a 400 ton feat. This is steel which has 35,000 pounds per square inch! To break out of 400 ton block of steel by flexing your muscles is a worthy 100,000+ ton feat.

4-5) Omni Man punches Invincible through 2 Skyscraper, and this was holding back his punch. Clearly above 400 tons of force by a huge margin.

The point I want to get across is many people think Invincible is a 400 toner because he was stated to have started working out at 400 tons. He has by feats and statements gotten way stronger.

So with that said is Invincible comparable to say Wonder Woman who feats of strength consist this?

I say yes, and then some. So with that said I think it is fairly a sure thing Invincible can indeed match Green Lantern in strength or break his shields.

Now we can delve into some scans of Invincible durability, speed, experience, but I will leave some battles to show what he was capable of early on. This is Omni Man, Invincible Father. This is a guy who took out his Justice League with a Speed Blitz.

Omni Mans Story.

Omni Man vs Gaurdians of the Globe. They were no joke, and Omni Man Speed Blitz them all.

Invincible vs Omni Man. Pretty one sided, but incredible durability for Invincible. What is better by Issues 70 and up Invincible is equal to his father.

Before I go on I like to know how fast are Green Lanterns reaction speed :)

#14 Posted by IheartZombies92 (2200 posts) - - Show Bio
#15 Edited by AllStarSuperman (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

Dis gonna b gud!

#16 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: My response may be a tad limited since I'm still building up some scans and trying to counter a fantastic start to this little debate!

Very nice scans in regards to Invincible's capabilities, I'm impressed. On point to just address one of your feats though, Spider-Man in Ends of the Earth broke through Ock's Carbonadium arms, while straining of course, but it goes to show that it's not as impressive as initially thought to be as Peter is clearly no where the same level as Invincible is in terms of strength.

Now, Invincible demonstrates an incredible degree of strength and speed, no doubt about that but I believe through Hal's large line-up of diverse powers, he more than showcases the ability to hold his own against a high tiered powerhouse such as him.

Here we have Hal taking on and absolutely humiliating Mongul II, who on a regular basis has given Superman a fair degree of trouble and even smacked around Sinestro himself, arguably the most powerful Lantern alongside Hal and demonstrates Hal's sheer skill and experience with the ring to overpower such a being:

Continuing on we have Hal facing off against Sinestro in control of the Parallax entity and even gaining a minor edge a times, which is considerable when acknowledging the power the Parallax entity grants it host, which allowed Sinestro to severely albeit temporarily harm Volthoom, the First Lantern who decimated everyone who opposed him:

Another display of his sheer resilience and power against similarly powered opponents or even greater in this matter, is against a Kyle Rayner possessed by the Ion entity which rivals that of the Parallax entity and Hal manages to hold his own, displaying that his willpower is strong enough to harm that of even a host of Ion while also showcasing a diversity with his constructs:

A decent display of his durability and resilience yet again while fighting with Darkseid, an opponent who dwarfs even that of Superman and makes a fool of the entire League and yet, Hal continues regardless even after knowing he has no chance only to be stopped by Batman:

Continuing on with a showcase of his willpower, durability and power, Hal shows his experience with his ring once against new Lantern villain Relic, who is capable of effortlessly disarming the entire GL corps through his tech and redirects an attack from Hal that showcases his degree of power even when at a dangerously low level:

And finally, he shows his capability to injure both Superman and Diana, albeit fighting a losing battle but still shows his resilience while simply trying to calm Diana down in their fight and restrain a moderately out of control Superman in the first scan:

In terms of power, Hal has shown a wide variety of capabilities with the ring, most recently holding off and effortlessly eliminating Larfleeze's constructs while also protecting and training new recruits all at the same time. Another thing to note is how the ring's power has been fluctuating and all GL's are losing their power due to the GL battery fading away:

Now another nice demonstration of his power with the ring allowed him to effortlessly blow off a Sinestro Corps members head even while using a fake ring generated by Sinestro. In the other scans, we have Hal blasting Hank Henshaw with a blast powerful enough to incinerate some of his skin and is quoted as being as hot as the sun. We also have Hal generating a blast powerful to kill the rebel Guardian Krona:

Moving on with more variety and showcases of the ring's power, Hal manages to contain and exploding star with his power, accidentally destroy a parenting planet with a redirected blast, generate a construct powerful and large enough to stabilize the planet in orbit, and recreate the GL corps in his constructs whilst facing Larfleeze by himself:

For a short demonstration of his speed and reaction timing, he shows that his speed is only limited to his willpower and that he can move in nano-seconds, the ability to move alongside Flash while attempting to contain an exploding star, destroy a multitude of rogue asteroids threatening the planet at incredible speed, speed-blitzing Superman and at 0.5% battery, catches the Flash, and he effortlessly breaks the sound barrier to stop Kyle from murdering his friends:

I'll have some more later on but I need to get back to studying! Hope my response was at least somewhat decent :P

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#17 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: Glad to see some speed feats. I wonder how fast he really is though. I ask this as I posted this question before to friends and it seem the only FTL Speed feat any Lantern has is Travel Speed. I have seen this sight here where he tags Flash and Zoom, but Zoom was distracted fighting wonder woman to be fair. http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/green-lantern-speedreaction-thread-battle-forum-us-642385/?page=2 However it seems Jhon Stewart cannot fight Flash or Superman if they Speed blitz unless he sets his ring to it.

This makes me ask the question, can Hal truly react to Speedeters? He can surely travel FTL, but can he keep up in a speed blitzing battle? He tags Flash, but so has Trickster, Captain Boomerang, and Deathstroke. None of them are Hyper Sonic much less FTL.

With that said, Incredible does indeed fight at insane speeds and travels at FTL speeds.

Invincible's very early Bio, which at the time stated he was 30+ tons, stated Mach 10+ speed in Atmosphere and is Light Speed in Space. This is very early Bio. As seen, much has changed.

1-2) Very Early Invincible flies from Upper North America to Antarctica in 39 seconds.

3) Flies with Shuttle to Mars and then disappears from human sight.

4) Explains how he has to hold back on his speed to keep from hurting people. Even fast Street Levels never have a chance to touch him.

5) Packs his stuff from his room, and then flies it all to his dorm in a few trips in less than a Panel.

6) Invincible fights Conquest at such speeds that they can only be tracked by Satellite Feeds slowed down, even then they are always 5 minuets behind each fight! Add to that they are battling around the planet at speeds that Instant Teleporting cannot hope to get Eve there before the battle is somewhere else.

7-8) Omni Man and Invincible throw a Baseball around the world. So that Baseball is traveling at major Hyper Sonic Speeds. Invincible easily reacts to catch it. Even so far as to fly back up to catch it when he forgot about it. Great example of reaction speed to majorly Hyper Sonic objects of baseball size.

9) Omni Man leaves from America to another Country, scopes the deal, then returns to grab Invincible. Then before the Hotdog can fall in time with gravity, they both are in the another country.

10) Invincible moves faster than Instant Teleportation can keep up with.

Invincible is insane fast and has the reaction time and battle blitzing to prove it. He regularly uses blitz speeds to fight foes who he believes can tank it. Hal will make it clear he can take it. So I wonder how much can Hal's ring can take from a blitzing Invincible who has the strength level to break shields with a few blows like Wonder Woman showed.

Now just to show Invincible is no stranger to hard brick like foes.

Invincible second biggest fight has him and Omni Man face 3 Viltrumite warriors. As seen they pretty much near killed Allen who was fighting early Invincible with no probs. These guys destroyed a entire civilization in seconds. This also shows off Omni Man who Invincible matches after the Viltrumite War.

These next few battle are Reanimen. These are super strong 30+ toner Zombie army.

Invincible vs a mass of Reanimen. These Cyborgs are all 30+ toners by bio and provide little more than a speed bump.

Invincible faces a newer and better version of Reanimen. He also had to compete with a brain bleeding device in his head while doing it.

Invincible and Wolf Man face off against the Reanimen, then Invincible beats down the whole Global Guardian team which includes the heaviest hitters on Invincible's planet like Immortal and Monster Girl.

Just to prove Invincible is no slouch to foes with Versatile power sets. We have Invincible being smart enough and clever enough to beat very unique powers.

Invincible vs Darkwing. Darkwing has access to the Shadow Verse. What is cool about this is Invincible fights smart and never let go assuming he could not be stranded if he held on.

Here is a character called Winters who was strong enough to harm Mark. He figured a easy and quick victory to win.

Invincible vs the Dimension Teleporter Angstrom Levy. In this Invincible realize he could not win traditionally beat em up way. So he makes a plan.

Invincible in his battle with Levy faces Doc Ock in the Marvel Universe twice. He saw the arms as a problem, he took out that problem.

Invincible vs Power Plex. Power Plex can absorb any form of energy, even Kinetic. Invincible was smart enough to notice that and just hold Power Plex till he lost energy.

It can be argued very easily Invincible will notice the Ring as the power and try to de ring the Green Lantern. Kinda like how Injustice Superman does to Injustice Green Lantern.

For the most part Injustice characters are very close to feats and abilities of Pre and New 52 Characters. This could very well happen.

#18 Edited by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: Hopefully I can clear some things up regarding speed. In most regards yes, a GL's best speed comes from travel where they are capable of moving far faster than the speed of light or as Hal as demonstrated, simply creating space warps to travel through whilst going from OA and across various parts of the Galaxy. I'm not too sure what the purpose of your first scan was as it clearly demonstrates that John's ring is more than capable of reacting to anything past the speed of sound and simply issues a warning to Clark that he does move that fast, his ring will catch him.

In regards to one scan I posted where Hal caught Barry, that was an instance where even Superman proved incapable of catching Barry himself. Even so, Hal has proven that he's more than capable of keeping up with Barry and on more than one occasion where he was able to lock onto a frantically moving Barry and teleport him to his own location (two separate scans of Hal proving he can keep up):

Another speed showcases Hal facing off against Professor Zoom who was disguised as Barry Allen but unbeknownst to Hal at the time and holds his own quite well considering that Barry has had his fair share of troubles with Professor Zoom who regularly outmatched him in speed but still paled in comparison to Zolomon (Wally's nemesis). I think this would further support Hal's capability of standing up to legitimate speedsters and not just bruisers who utilize their speed for blitzing instead of true combat speed:

Additionally, if I can find the scans, there was another instance in Blackest Night where a Black Lantern J'onn went up against a reluctant Barry Allen and Hal Jordan, he forced Barry to attack Hal by planting misleading images in his mind making Barry believe that he was attacking J'onn himself rather than Hal and we see that despite Barry's speed and relentlessness, Hal manages to defend himself despite refusing to retaliate against Barry.

In regards to the Injustice scan, that's not canon to the DCU but I'll address it regardless for the sake of the argument. In regards to the feat itself, I don't find it largely appropriate to translate into battle terms as Hal wasn't in the slightest looking to fight Superman nor did he want to harm him. He merely wanted to talk and calm him down since his actions were beginning to frighten everyone. Secondly, Superman and Hal have been teammates and allies for years by that point and Superman is more than likely fully aware of the rings capabilities, a luxury that Mark( Invincible) would be severely lacking.

Therefore, I don't find it necessary nor appropriate to merely use theoretics to transfer such a feat to another character completely unaware of his opponent and their powerset. On top of that, aside from one instance in the New 52 Justice League where Batman takes Hal's ring without his knowledge and with his guard down, Hal has never been stripped off his ring by another opponent to my knowledge whilst in battle. In both the JL case and in the Injustice scan, Hal had his guard down and wasn't expecting to fight in any regard, but Superman was essentially unrestricted and don't get me started with Batman stealing the ring.

Again, very nice speed feats from Invincible but I'd like to retaliate with a bit of my own aside from the ones I've already shown. A slightly earlier feat but we see Hal being forced to move faster than the speed of light to be able to return to Earth from an alien planet he was stranded on (apologies for the large image):

In another case and demonstration of Hal's construct strength and ability to restrain and catch an angered Superman:

Here, Hal defeats a villain named the Rainbow Raider (yeah I know...) with relative ease despite him nearly defeating and killing Barry Allen in the same issue:

Here we have Hal moving from Earth to Oa via Hyperspace in an instant, tracking a ship through hyperspace in a distance measured by 132 light years in mere moments while towing along the JLA with him and stating his ring can easily track and find it's way anywhere through the "cosmic wilderness", and finally tracks a beam through space and warps to catch up with it effortlessly:

Appreciate the scans once again showcasing Mark's variety against several diverse opponents but I'd like to share my own with Hal facing off similarly alongside what I've already shown. In many instances, Hal has faced a variety of beings showcasing a similar power set to his own and even facing off against multiple Superman levelled beings and even coming out the victor when the even entire League couldn't anything. It shows Hal's resilience, creativity and diversity with his power set that puts him on an entirely different level from your standard brick and as such, allows him to turn the tide in many cases

Here we have a case of Hal facing off against Mongul once again, who is a Superman levelled being, in an amped up construct providing him protection but still under his own power:

Here we have Hal showing off his creativity once again against a Dr. Polaris who beings to feed off the magnetic energies of a split dimension, amping himself to a ridiculous degree to where he states he can destroy planets under his own power:

In another case, we have Hal taking on both Lobo and Captain Comet (at first unwillingly) and seemingly holding his own and even gaining a foothold at a few points during the fight to say the least:

To demonstrate Hal's efforts against beings who have stood up against and even stomped the likes of the league on a few occasions, we have Hal stalemating Shaggy Man for over an hour and even effortlessly knocking out General Eiling, a being who smacked around the likes of Superman and Diana with ease and even blast a hole straight through Amazo, who has the combined powers of the league and then some:

And to end off my reply, I'll finish off with a fight Hal had with a mutated Black Hand who is capable of either absorbing or draining any form of light to his liking, essentially making Hal weaker during their fight and Hal manages to outperform and defeat Black Hand, cutting off his arm and burying him:

To reiterate, I feel like Hal is more than capable of demonstrating his ability to keep up and even face off against speedsters to the like of Flash and Zoom, stop Superman in his tracks, move at incredible speeds far faster than the speed of light and thus allows him to be able to react to speed blitzes, which I may have a scan to back up later on. In addition, Hal shows his vast experience with the ring and his creativity with it to face off against a wide variety of opponents ranging from completely different power spectrums.

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#19 Posted by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy Mother of scan-dumps.....

Debate looks awesome - tag me when you guys are voting.

#20 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (11349 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: Dat Avatar Wan avatar doe .... But anyway, I just noticed you have a feat from DC: The New Frontier and wasn't sure if it was intentional. Reason being that it comes from a version of DC that may not be exactly cannon since it features most characters in their golden age or silver age appearances and such as you probably know and follows a different story, I've also been told that I probably could not use it if I was arguing for Pre-52 Hal so I was just wondering if your use of that particular scan was intentional or if it actually applies to Pre-52 Hal....

#21 Edited by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw @deranged_midget You guys are making it extremely tough for me to make a clear conclusion thus far, strong points on both sides. Kudo's to indiecomicsftw for educating the uneducated (me) on Invincible. I also take my hat off to you Deranged_Midget, I said I had basic knowledge on Hal but I didn't know he excelled that much in the speed department. Overall, you both are going to make us work to make a vote. Definitely one of my favourite CaV's.

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#22 Posted by tparks (3919 posts) - - Show Bio
#23 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: Well I am happy Lanterns have speed feats, for the longest time I always thought it strange for Lanterns to exist in DC universe with so many powerhouse blitzers lol.

Also yes, the Superman Injustice feat was just to point out what seem to happen with near equals. Also Batman is the Batman, he needs no explanation in anything he does :).

With that said I see now Invincible speed is not a game changer. It still helps to keep Hal from nailing Mark that often. However Invincible has one other others advantages in this fight of going all out. Morals and Pain Threshold.

First lets look at the Pain Thresh hold and Marks Durability. Invincible has a Healing Factor, not as fast as Wolverines or Hulks, but fast enough to heal a severed spine and a hole in the stomach in mere months. This also seems to keep him from dying right away from instant kill injuries.

1) Tanks a human size bomb with little effort in his weakest incarnation.

2-5) Invincible coughs off a Thermal Bomb attack that evaporates Las Vegas and glasses the desert.

6) Invincible tanks a dimensional blast that ashes a small army of Mauler Twins, each with super Human Durability in the 20 ton range.

7) Jokes off Furnace attacks, who has the body of Magma.

8) Ignores high power lasers.

9-11) Invincible shrugs of a Nuke exploding in his face. Next panel he flies back to earth to finish of the Mauler Twins.

12-14) Laughs off this severe attack from another Viltrumite warrior.

Now we see INCREDIBLE durability, thus the name Invincible, however what happens when he fights beings who are stronger and can maim him? He keeps fighting!

All 4 examples show how he fights on through open fractures, broken arms/legs, guts spewing out of his stomach, ect. He will never KOed unless he is physically and completely broken. The sweet thing about Invincible is he will continue to fight even if he looks like this!

He is like the Energizer Bunny!

Now that is a huge advantage as I seen Hal suffer not even a quarter of that in his fights. If Hal was in the same shape, he be dead. Another Advantage is Marks willing to maim or kill. Mark is not a willing killer, but he will kill or maim to win. Add to this the Viltrumites have crazy Berserker rage in battle. Invincible suffers from this as well in hard battles. Example of this below.

Both these scans I showed before, but wanted to prove a point.

Invincible vs the Dimension Teleporter Angstrom Levy. He lets that temper of his get to the point of fustration where that Viltrumite blood cause him to berserk.

Invincible in his battle with Levy Angstrom gets teleported to Marvel Universe. There he faces Doc Ock of the Marvel Universe twice. Both encounters Spidey remarks just how violent and close to killing Mark is. Mark does not full around at all.

Here are more examples.

Here Invincible has to deal with a Suicide Bombing Teacher. He simply hauls him to the South Pole and tosses him with a smile on his face.

Invincible vs Doc Seismic. Doc Seismic has waves that rupture earth and cause massive earthquakes. This shows when Doc Seismic chose he rather die, Invincible let him. He could have easily pushed himself to fallow him down and speed grab him. He didnt.]

Invincible takes out a future monarch version of Immortal. Immortal who is a friend (somewhat) and most famous super hero on the planet. He wanted to die, and Mark was all to eager to end him in a violent and bloody way.

Invincible pretty much wrecks the Sequids. Each of those Jelly Fish things is peak human in strength. The strength of over 100,000 of them acting as one makes for a major foe. When Mark realize he had no way stopping the threat who took over a famous astronaut, Mark ended the innocent life to win!

There is many more examples, but the fact is Mark has a edge in going out where Hal always goes out of his way to take the high Road. He will more than likely hold back on the kid whether trying to win or not, than Mark who will get blood lusted and op for killing Hal to win.

#24 Posted by Lvenger (17855 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the third CAV I've bookmarked but it's gonna be worthwhile following this one too.

#25 Posted by Hyperlight (5374 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Posted by Lvenger (17855 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyperlight: I meant personally bookmarked on my web browser. There's no bookmark feature on the Vine.

#27 Posted by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@hyperlight: I meant personally bookmarked on my web browser. There's no bookmark feature on the Vine.

There's a "Watch this topic" option, but I don't know what that does.

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#28 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@hyperlight: I meant personally bookmarked on my web browser. There's no bookmark feature on the Vine.

There's a "Watch this topic" option, but I don't know what that does.

Watches... a topic? I guess :p

#29 Posted by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@lvenger said:

@hyperlight: I meant personally bookmarked on my web browser. There's no bookmark feature on the Vine.

There's a "Watch this topic" option, but I don't know what that does.

Watches... a topic? I guess :p

Yeah. I guess I was expecting notifications after every post.

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#30 Edited by Hyperlight (5374 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Edited by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: Very, very nice post! The most intriguing aspect of the entire thing is how you demonstrated his durability. Although, I will admit that I am a little confused as to how his morals work. You state that he and other beings of his species tend to break into a berserker style stage and absolutely let loose, almost willing to kill to win. But, does Mark ever engage in fights where he does his absolute best to restrain himself and does he let loose on separate occasions? I ask only because I'm curious as to what pushes him beyond that threshold to let loose in such a manner to forcefully maim and dismember his opponents to win?

From what you've shown me though, Mark definitely has a high degree of durability for sure, but it seems like the majority of his opponents lack a diverse power set and one so expansive in comparison to that of Hal. Not to state that the opponents Mark faces aren't impressive but Hal constantly puts himself against opponents that rival the physically strongest beings of his universe and he finds himself holding his own quite well and even gaining solid advantages over them once he begins to fight seriously as shown with his battle against both Lobo and Captain Comet.

But just to clarify, Hal's own durability is nothing to scoff at either. On more than one occasion, he was shown to resist immensely powerful blasts; once as a rookie and once in space, completely unaffected:

Here we have Hal overcoming his boundaries and managing to surprise Atrocitus, who was only moments before, stomping both Hal and Sinestro, which allows Sinestro to land a finishing blow. It's more of a showcase of his resilience than anything:

Another case showcasing Hal's sheer willpower and determination against superior opponents is when a rookie version of himself is pitted against Zero Hour Parallax and despite Parallax holding a significant power advantage, Rookie Hal still manages to fight back and hold his own:

Slightly off-topic but another instance that proves Hal's sheer will and refusal to give up is when he encounters Hector Hammond, who is recognizably one of the most powerful telepaths and despite that, he manages to not only completely resist him at first, but then ALLOWS him to come into his mind and then forces him out again:

Now, for a more direct comparison, we have Hal engaging with another GL who utilizes a prototype ring that contains a substantial amount of more power than the average ring. An older fight but a notable one IMO:

And here's what I was referring to before about Bizarro speed-blitzing Hal and yet, he still manages to regain his balance and retaliate by enlarging himself via a construct and flicking Bizarro away:

Here's another case of Hal's insane rebellious nature and refusal to give up. He goes up against an opponent with a weapon that analyzes anyone's strengths and weaknesses and essentially is supposed to defeat them. Hal manages to resist and turn the weapons power back on its user:

In retrospect yes, Hal may not have the ridiculous pain tolerance of Mark (even though he's gone up against Darkseid and refused to give up) and depends more on his shielding, I believe that his versatility and creativity with the ring is more than enough for Hal to retain an edge and as shown, his fighting style keeps his opponents on their toes and he has even managed to get the better of more powerful versions of himself and other Lanterns.

Incredibly so, this is all done within his morals and yet, he still manages to continually push the boundaries of his willpower, impressing that of his opponents and his allies.

Here's another demonstration of Hal going up against opponents of similar power sets and even greater power levels who had previously embarrassed similarly skilled Lanterns. Hal manages to defeat a rogue book keeper of Oa despite him giving multiple Lanterns trouble only just before Hal's interference. In another case, Hal takes on the Zamarons, which are moderately comparable to being female counterparts to the Guardians (even though there are female Guardians):

Again, we have Hal managing to briefly hold his own against Kyle (who alone is similar to Hal in power) who is possessed by Parallax before the interference of the Sinestro Corps:

Unfortunately, my scans for this encounter aren't all working but it's merely showcasing Sinestro vs Hal during GL: Rebirth. Hal takes on Sinestro, who defeated Ollie and Kyle, and took an incredibly powerful blast only to grin after getting up and allows Sinestro to charge at him:

And just to showcase a bit of Hal's further versatility with the ring, we have him here rendering himself and the League invisible and another where he mentions to Ollie that people can only see him if he allows them to:

And finally, Hal shows that he can create neutral constructs separated from his ring with their own gravitational buoyancy. To be honest, it doesn't represent much but it shows that Hal could possibly utilize this as a diversion against Mark in a battle since considering this is a random encounter with no info, he'd be still largely unaware of Hal's capabilities. In another, we see Hal analyzing weak points in a Constrictor and applying measured amounts of pressure to break free:

Oh and just to address one of your points towards Mark brutally beating up Doc Ock, it's a decent feat but considering how much Peter holds back against his foes and even against Doc Ock, managing to break through his Carbonadium arms and even take off Scorpion's jaw in a single blow (Doc Ock in possession of Peter's body) and the display of power blew him away, bringing him to the realization how much Peter held back. So really, it's a decent feat but I wouldn't use it to support Mark in this case.

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#33 Posted by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio

I swear. If this debate isn't over soon, I won't be able to sleep at night.

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#34 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: Dat Avatar Wan avatar doe .... But anyway, I just noticed you have a feat from DC: The New Frontier and wasn't sure if it was intentional. Reason being that it comes from a version of DC that may not be exactly cannon since it features most characters in their golden age or silver age appearances and such as you probably know and follows a different story, I've also been told that I probably could not use it if I was arguing for Pre-52 Hal so I was just wondering if your use of that particular scan was intentional or if it actually applies to Pre-52 Hal....

I used it because in most regards, it still applied to Pre-52 in terms of travel speed. Truthfully, the only things that changed from the Silver Age to Pre-52 were some ridiculous weaknesses in addition to some insane matter manipulation with the ring which is largely unusable in battle.

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#35 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: Sweet. I think it is time for the closer. I express the main things I wanted to and will finish it up with some clarifying and final OMG WTH feats.

On Mark's Morals and Berserker Rage, I can break it down easy. It changes alot from Early Invincible to Current. Early Invincible was in no way a killer. He tried not to kill. He allowed foes to die like the Suicide Bomber, Dr. Seismic, and Reanimen, but would not suffer from Berserk Rage till later. Close to the middle part, Invincible killed (Mark thought he did) his first foe, Angstrom Levy. Levy basically had Invincible on the ropes and harmed his mother badly. Mark snapped into Viltrumite Berserk Rage. Then later we see that rage happen a few more times when Invincible begins to lose or love ones are hurt. Finally during the Viltrumite War to Current times he ha and wilk kill foes for a win if he thinks that is the best option. Immortal, Conquest, Dinosaurus, Sequid Host, ect. all dies when Invincible saw no other way to win.

Also the big noted of Durability I wanted to point out was Mark ability to tank damage to little effect, but also his pain threshold and shaking off fatal wounds. This matters as Hal who has to rely on his shields to tank attacks. Should Mark break through them, he can leave Hal in a Hospitable ICU for months. For all his will, his shields and constructs get broken by Wonder Woman, Superman, or other power Lanterns who imo Mark matches around.

Another thing I wanted to say was this.

I almost forgot all about this. What is the Rings energy drain in battles? Against someone of Marks caliber would it drain faster than it normally would against casual use? Mark does get tired when exerted for hours, however he also can feel fine after minuets thanks to his Healing Factor. He may slow down, but will never run out of juice. Meanwhile if Hal runs low on power, that could be a win.

Now I noticed you said Hal has faced the worst of his Universe and held his own. Well Invincible has faced the best of his Universe, and more often than not won.

Angstrom Levy gathers 20 evil Invincibles from different dimensions, then unleashes on the Image world. They battle Spawn, Darkness, Witchblade, Global Guardians, Tech Jacket, Dynomo 5, Savage Dragon, ect.... the main showdown is after only 8 Invincibles survived the attack, and teleported back to their home dimensions. Then the main Invincible faces Levy again.

this is awesome for a few reason, basically the Invincibles only lost to Group Efforts and against Spawn as well Darkness with ease. A single Invincible is close to matching the best Image Comics has to offer. Even better is the good guy Invincible beats rather easily his evil counterpart. Right after this battle Conquest shows up. Perfect timing.

Invincible bloodiest battle ever was against Conquest. Conquest was considered higher than Omni Man on the pecking order. It shows. Invincible through blood, guts, and adrenalin manages to kill Conquest. It turn out Conquest lived through this and healed in less than a month. What is really impressive is the fact this happens right after the Invincible invasion and Angstrom. No rest for the wicked.

Then we kick off the Viltrumite War.

Invincible battles tons of other fully grown Viltrumites and proves to be one of the top Viltrumites in the Universe. Second only to Thragg. More or less even with Omni Man. He also faces Conquest again, and this time Invincible not only holds his own, he kills Conquest for good.

Another neat one.

Invincible breaks Dinosaurus out of prison, but is force to face the 12 Dead Invincibles made into Reanimen. A battle he could not hope of winning, he merely survives till his terms are met. This is a good feat as Invincible is fighting stats wise his near equals in numbers! To survive and still get what he wants is beyond impressive.

Finally we have one of his last big battles.

Before reaching issue 100, Invincible had to face Dinosaurus. A being equal to most Viltrumites. Dinosaurus could not beat Invincible, so he made a incapacitate device. He later releases the device and tells Invincible to kill him because he will do evil things again. Mark murders him with his superior stats.

Not only these battles show the power, the brutality, the durability, and the collateral damage, but it also shows how far and serious Mark is when it comes to winning.

There is no better battle of wills than Hal vs Mark. I close this with Marks slight advantages in this.

  • Mark has the Speed to make it that much hard to battle and be tagged by Hal.
  • Mark has the Durability, Pain Threshold, and Healing Factor to keep fighting till he dies.
  • Mark has the strength and power to break Hals constructs, maybe get through Hal's personnel shields in a few hits.
  • Mark is a train fighter as well. Hal is too am sure, but Mark has been trained by his Father, one of the best Warriors in the universe, since he past Puberty. He has proven his skill in combat against the hardest veterans of the Universe. Like Allen the Alien, Conquest, Immortal, Gaurdians of the Globe, and other Viltrumites.
  • Mark has the potential off dropping off all morals. He has shown it any times and even snapped when push come to shove. The 20 evil Invincibles that Angstrome found were not hard, Mark Viltrumite blood craves violence and aggression. Hal on the other hand will do his best to not maim or kill the kid. It is harder to win by holding back than going all out.
  • Mark is a very smart kid. by that I mean he rarely has CIS and figures things out against versatile power sets early on in battle. he will figure quickly the Ring as the power source. In Hand to Hand, he will focus on ripping a hand off I think.

These are my thoughts on the fight and I am so happy to see GL in depth. Many people on the vine rarely have any scans of GLs of any kind for battles. I was under the impression they could not counter Speedsters, I am pleasantly surprised. Anyway, been hoping to have a battle with you for over a year now, so that was cool to have this awesome debate with ya. Cheers mate.

#36 Posted by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw Very nice closer. Showcasing some insane feats for Invincible. It is going to be painful to vote for someone.

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#37 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw Very nice closer. Showcasing some insane feats for Invincible. It is going to be painful to vote for someone.

Thanks. Hopefully this will get respect to both characters out there. Hal is very underused and I never seen such a collection of speed feats. This is a great go to match for Invincible and Hal Jordan scans lol.

#38 Posted by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@indiecomicsftw Very nice closer. Showcasing some insane feats for Invincible. It is going to be painful to vote for someone.

Thanks. Hopefully this will get respect to both characters out there. Hal is very underused and I never seen such a collection of speed feats. This is a great go to match for Invincible and Hal Jordan scans lol.

Indeed. I've gained a deeper respect for both combatants. Glad you used Invincible, he is also one of the few used on the forum.

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#39 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: Wicked closing argument. I'll address it to the best of my ability! :)

In regards to Mark's strength, I haven't seen anything that would dwarf the highest tiered opponent's he's taken on and survived against despite them relentlessly beating down on him. For example, it seems like the majority of opponents that Mark has faced off against are brutish type characters but as I mentioned before, they seem to lack the variety and sheer power that Hal has demonstrated and the opponents he's tossed up with. That's what I tried my best to demonstrate.

In team books, Hal is shown to relatively shoved aside to make way for Clark, Diana and possibly Batman with them gaining advantages over him at times, but in most cases, Hal has more than proven capable of defeating opponents that have bested the League all-together and sometimes with absolute ease, not to mention the sheer and absolute will-power he demonstrates against a wide-variety of opponents ranging from devastating telepaths to high-tier powerhouses and to Galactic/Universal threats like ION and Parallax.

As I've shown previously, even with less than a percent of his ring power, Hal effortlessly exceeded the sound barrier. Additionally, he's faced off against opponents like Black Hand who continually drained Hal's power as they were fighting and yet, he still managed to counter and defeat him.

And while has never been formally trained, he's held his own against several opponents(without his ring) and even took an upper-hand over Kilowag:

Another case where Hal was using a fake ring made by Sinestro and at the same time, was continually draining of it's power without a proper battery to recharge and considering Sinestro's ring was deactivated, he fought against an Indigo controlled Sinestro:

Alongside Barry, Hal fights off in a alien warlord's "colosseum" in a deathmatch due to failed wager years ago. His ring was already running out of juice prior to the deathmatch and shows that he still manages to create a wide variety of constructs in addition to displaying the willpower to override the ring's protocols:

Here, we have Hal displaying an immense amount of willpower to break himself free from Parallax's control, a feat that not even Spectre himself could pull off and we also have a feat of Hal being overpowered by other Lanterns and quickly being able to heal himself back to 100%, a feat that even rookie Lanterns could replicate:

Just to demonstrate more of Hal's power, we have him facing off against a presumed extinct race of Oan's who bring fear even to the Guardians. Despite that, Hal manages to somewhat damage one of the beings, but not defeat them but it still demonstrates his courage and refusal to give up:

And finally, Hal faces off against an opponent with a similar ring that apparently "dwarfs" Hal's own power, blasting him through an entire planet and yet, Hal is unscathed and continues to defeat him:

So to sum it up, I believe that while Mark may have an advantage in sheer and raw speed, Hal is more than capable of keeping up and reacting to him as he's fought and kept up with the fastest beings in his universe with little effort and even demonstrated impressive feats of his own. In addition, I feel like Hal's general cocky attitude gives his opponents the wrong impression of him and his unmatched willpower gives him an advantage to overcome almost any opponent and to even face off against all-powerful entities.

On the flip-side, he's tossed up against some of the most powerful and varied beings in his universe and continued on without his shields giving out and even when they did, he got right back up and never gave in. I'm not betting in Mark doing much better to beat down Hal when the forces of a Zero Hour version of himself, Mongul, Parallax Kyle and more couldn't manage such a feat.

And finally, I feel like I've done my best to showcase Hal's innate and underappreciated skill and creativity with his ring and the depth of the constructs he creates under his own power, which I believe will give Hal a noticeable advantage alone. His power-set is just incredibly varied and allows him to keep up and counter most of what Mark can toss at him.

To top it off, I want to thank you for this fantastic debate! You've given me the opportunity to stretch my legs so to speak after taking such an extended leave from debating. I had a great time and I truly appreciate learning more about Mark from the absolutely stunning collection of scans you possess! Time to go pick up some Invincible! :)

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#41 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: Good Game! That was one of the best. You need to stretch those legs more often man. I also never new GLs can heal themselves. Learn 2 new things about GL in this. Which is perfect for future debates.

Ready for Votes?

#42 Edited by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Edited by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome work guys. I'll wait for the official go ahead before having my input.

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#45 Edited by dondave (33369 posts) - - Show Bio

Overall, Deranged_Midget put up a better debate. However, I'm going to decline from voting due to the fact that some of his scans feature Pre Crisis Hal or are completely out of context. For example, in his first post where he says that Hal held his own against Ion Kyle, it wasn't Kyle, rather it was Nero disguised as Kyle who is much less powerful.

#46 Posted by Jmarshmallow (3267 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: Wouldn't that make IndieComicsFTW your vote? I mean, better to vote for somebody, right?

I thought you both did great, but I'm going to have to read through the thread one more time to really get a grip on who I'm voting for.

I had no idea Indie was that good, and it's been a bit since I seen Deranged_Midget really put himself out there like he did with this CAV.

Bravo, to the both of you. I'll put in a vote post-haste!

Jmarshmallow

#47 Edited by dondave (33369 posts) - - Show Bio

@jmarshmallow: Normally it would but he didn't convince me that Mark could beat Hal, so rather I don't vote at all.

#48 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@jmarshmallow:

NVM.

@dondave said:

@jmarshmallow: Normally it would but he didn't convince me that Mark could beat Hal, so rather I don't vote at all.

Eh, thanks for abstaining. As top poster I come to expect that kind of integrity. :)

#49 Posted by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio

Let me just start off by saying, well done to both of you. I've gained a deeper respect for both of these characters, especially for Invincible (considering I had near zilch knowledge on him). I would have never thought this would have been so evenly matched in pretty much all aspects. Both of you made some very strong points, and kept the debate clean. If you were unsure of something you pointed it out and kept it friendly. It was just enjoyable material and I've learned so much.

Now to the voting. I knew this would be hard to decide pretty much after both of you made your opening argument. Both are arguably equal in terms of will power, IndieComicsFTW did a nice job of displaying Invincible's extremely high tolerance for pain and determination to fight through and through, while Deranged_Midget pretty much showcased Hal's will and refusal to give up. There is no doubt, that if both combatants are fighting to the best of their ability, it would be a long and gruesome fight.

In regards to speed, both are massively impressive. If Invincible was in the DCU, he'd definitely rival the speedsters there, kudos to IndieComicsFTW for that. But DM did do a good job in countering that with the fact that Hal can hang with the fastest of DC as well. So both combatants come extremely close in this department too.

In my personal opinion, this is what it comes down to. Invincible's strength should definitely contend with Superman's and Wonder Woman's who have broken through Hal's constructs more than enough times to say Invincible could do the same. In addition to Invincible's speed blitzing instinct, this would give Hal hell. However, I do think, and I can't ignore this, but I do think Hal's raw offensive power > Invincible's durability, if not >>. I do think Hal wins this fight, but not by much. Heck, if there was a round two, Invincible has more than a fair shot in taking it. This is so slim its not even funny and I can be swayed each way.

Overall, I'll give my vote to @deranged_midget due to, I'm not even going to say "superior", DM just had a better portrayal of feats. Hold your head high @indiecomicsftw it was only by a hair and you both have earned my respect.

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#50 Posted by Jmarshmallow (3267 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: Ahhh, okay, gotcha!

And very nice summary MonsterStomp!

Jmarshmallow