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#51 Posted by Lvenger (19084 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I have conceded earlier that a morals on, in character fight would go to Palpatine for the majority. But my opponent wanted both characters to be going all out and an all out Superman has access to more tactics and lethal options that a morals on Superman wouldn't. Thank you for voting.

So the current score is 4-1 to me still.

#52 Posted by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Respectfully, I do give reasons why Palaptine's combat speed is nowhere near what my opponent claims it is and how the precognition has little bearing on the fight.

I've read this entire debate and I've assessed your arguments to be deficient with respect to Palpatine's combat speed. I've read the passages that @dccomicsrule2011 quoted directly from the book. It just seems like you don't understand what the passage is saying. Anakin Skywalker has relativistic (or near relativistic) reaction speed which is augmented by the Force: he was able to maneuver his starfighter to avoid a head-on collision with another starfighter flying at him at a respectable fraction of light speed. This is what the passage says:

For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human REFLEXES to react.

The passage directly points out that Anakin's reflexes are beyond normal human reflexes. I really don't see how you can dispute this. It's not imagery, it's not flowery language, it's a direct description of how fast Anakin's reflexes are. And Palpatine can wtflol speed blitz Anakin to the point where he can't react or even see Palpatine. Thus, Palpatine has relativistic or near relativistic reaction/combat speed.

Superman does have limited TP resistance feats and if he goes all out straight away, Palaptine won't be able to gain an advantage from a speedblitz assault. But I do agree Sidious has a good chance of winning this and can take the majority in an character fight.

This doesn't make sense. As stipulated in the rules both Superman and Palpatine are going all out straight away, so why does this matter?

Second, you've shown NO speed feats that put Superman anywhere near relativistic combat speed. When one character is faster than another character, like say, if Palpatine is faster than Superman, then that means Palpatine can speed blitz Superman. It doesn't matter if Superman is going all out or not. If you're not fast enough you're gonna get speed blitzed, plain and simple.

Third, if you're agreeing that Superman has limited TP resistance and Palpatine has inter-galactic TP, then how are you arguing that this does not give Palpatine an advantage during the fight? This doesn't make sense.

@dccomicsrule2011 Has given evidence to show Palpatine has relativistic or near relativistic reaction/combat speed, Palpatine has intergalactic telepathy, and that Palpatine has Force Storms + Drain. Hence, he gets my vote.

#53 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate was absolutely astounding and one of my favorites this is extremely hard to decide both of you did a really excellent job to the point of it being very close but overall I believe @lvenger has the edge due to his counter arguments and well constructed points.

#54 Posted by Lvenger (19084 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: Fair enough. I respectfully disagree with your points and believe I've addressed them in my arguments such as showing that Superman has near light combat speed whereas Palpatine has an exaggerated so called near relativistic speed not to mention that I've asserted that an all out assault from Superman won't give Sidious a full amount of time for a TP, drain and Force Storm assault but I can't be bothered to redo this debate again. Glad you're voting for who you thought was the better debater.

@neongamewave Thanks for the vote man, much appreciated!

#55 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger gets my vote. He did an excellent job debating with Superman and showing many counter points. Dccomicsrules did an amazing job too, but overall, lvenger has the edge.

#56 Edited by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Fair enough. I respectfully disagree with your points and believe I've addressed them in my arguments such as showing that Superman has near light combat speed

What are you talking about? You never produced a single scan showing Superman has near light speed combat/reaction speed. This is just a flat out misrepresentation of the facts. I went back and did a word search for "light speed" and "lightspeed" to see exactly what you wrote, and here's everything you wrote:

And even if Palpatine is faster than I give him credit for, unlike Anakin, Superman can see objects moving at light speed. Here he spots Barry Allen and Wally West, two of the fastest beings in the DCU

So what? Superman can see objects moving at light speed that doesn't mean he can REACT and MOVE at that speed. Here's the second thing you wrote:

Although he's not light speed, Superman has some very fast combat moves under his belt which outclass the blur of motion and slowed down time motions Jedi such as Anakin have shown. And even if Palpatine is too fast for Anakin to see, he won't be too fast for Superman to see.

Here you're even admitting that Superman is NOT light speed. The only thing you say is that "he has some very fast combat moves." So? That's not proof that he's as fast or faster than Palpatine. This is nothing more than your subjective feelings that he is, it's your opinion. But this isn't evidence.

Moreover, @dccomicsrule2011 isn't saying that Palpatine is too fast for Superman to see, you've already provided evidence that Superman can see people moving at light speed, his argument is that Superman can't REACT or MOVE that fast. Those are two totally different things. Superman will see Palpatine's lightsaber coming at him, he just won't be able to dodge it, lol.

And here's the final thing you said:

That won't be a problem for Superman as I've mentioned. He's spotted Wally and Barry moving at light speed, sped up his senses to match Flash in conversation and can count the time between nanoseconds. I think that's enough to spot and react to Palpatine.

Here you're just flat out misrepresenting the evidence. The scan ONLY shows that Superman can perceive objects moving at light speed, it doesn't show that Superman can REACT or MOVE at that same speed. So, you're right, it's enough to spot Palpatine but it's NOT enough to REACT to Palpatine. You keep confusing perception with reaction/combat speed. That was the biggest weakness of your argument.

whereas Palpatine has an exaggerated so called near relativistic speed

How exactly is Palpatine's speed exaggerated? @dccomicsrule2011 provided direct evidence from the book that Anakin has sub-light reaction speed (either relativistic or near relativistic) and Palpatine can speed blitz Anakin. This means that Palpatine has relativistic+ or near relativistic+ reaction/combat speed. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? I see that you simply don't want to believe it's true that Palpatine is this fast, but what you want to believe doesn't always correspond with the truth.

not to mention that I've asserted that an all out assault from Superman won't give Sidious a full amount of time for a TP, drain and Force Storm assault but I can't be bothered to redo this debate again. Glad you're voting for who you thought was the better debater.

First, an all out assault from Superman would be useless. He doesn't have the reaction or combat speed to even tag Palpatine. He can see him but that's it. It's not much help if you can see the opponent you're fighting but you can't hit him or dodge his attacks. Palpatine is simply too fast for Superman and he has attacks in his arsenal that Superman is weak against. And even leaving aside the question of Palptine's combat speed, he still has force-enhanced precog that would tell him what Superman would do even before Superman knew what he would do. That's some pretty insane precog.

#57 Posted by Lvenger (19084 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: I said NEAR light speed, not light speed. That's a misinterpretation on your part now. I've provided arguments to support every facet of my case and you choose to see them as not enough to stop Palpatine. Fine by me. You've made yourself clear so I'm fully aware of what your view on the battle is, even though I disagree with it and have supported myself many times which you choose to overlook. Thanks for voting on the debate.

#58 Posted by Lvenger (19084 posts) - - Show Bio

So the current score is 6 votes for me and 1 vote for @dccomicsrule2011. It's a shame as this debate is much closer than the votes indicate it to be. I had to give blood, sweat and tears in making my counter arguments to him.

#59 Posted by Bane_of_sith (2796 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: gets my vote! Both did a great job but in the end my mind as made up

#60 Posted by BullPR (740 posts) - - Show Bio

It's still an ongoing debate in my mind because the "speed issue" doesn't seem to be solved.

@dccomicsrule2011

has good arguments but not enough actual feats (IMO), while

@lvenger

has somewhat "weaker" arguments but was able to show better feats.

The conditions of this battle (no prep, morals off, random encounters) are the perfect scenario for Superman.

I can see a lot of scenarii with Palpatine winning (and @dccomicsrule2011 successfully convinced me that Palpatine could win in the majority of the cases).

But for the debate, my vote goes for @lvenger

However, thank you+++ to @dccomicsrule2011,I never learnt that much about a character since I'm part of this forum. I read some SW books in the early 90s (mainly the Thrawn trilogy and the next 10 books or so in the SW universe). But it was more as feel good/page turner books. Not as good science fiction books. The way @dccomicsrule2011 has debated make me feel I was wrong+++

Excellent debate, looking forward for a rematch with a different set of characters/circumstances

#61 Posted by Lvenger (19084 posts) - - Show Bio

So the current score is 7-2 to me.

#62 Posted by Perezite (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

wow, this is a tough decision, good job , both of you. But ....Lvenger wins.

If by tough you mean the easiest decision you ever made in your life, then yes. It was VERY tough. :P

Anyways @lvenger, you get my vote, brah. Keep on rockin'. :D

#63 Posted by Perezite (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@uberhikari: I said NEAR light speed, not light speed. That's a misinterpretation on your part now. I've provided arguments to support every facet of my case and you choose to see them as not enough to stop Palpatine. Fine by me. You've made yourself clear so I'm fully aware of what your view on the battle is, even though I disagree with it and have supported myself many times which you choose to overlook. Thanks for voting on the debate.

Wow. The passive aggressive anger boiling beneath the surface and the faux politeness is strong with this one.

#64 Posted by dboyrules2011 (12620 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#65 Posted by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@perezite said:

@lvenger said:

@uberhikari: I said NEAR light speed, not light speed. That's a misinterpretation on your part now. I've provided arguments to support every facet of my case and you choose to see them as not enough to stop Palpatine. Fine by me. You've made yourself clear so I'm fully aware of what your view on the battle is, even though I disagree with it and have supported myself many times which you choose to overlook. Thanks for voting on the debate.

Wow. The passive aggressive anger boiling beneath the surface and the faux politeness is strong with this one.

Exactly, that's why I stopped responding. He's acting like a baby. He's winning 7-2 but rather than respect people's votes and be happy, he's attacking the voters passive-aggressively.

#66 Posted by Perezite (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

@perezite said:

@lvenger said:

@uberhikari: I said NEAR light speed, not light speed. That's a misinterpretation on your part now. I've provided arguments to support every facet of my case and you choose to see them as not enough to stop Palpatine. Fine by me. You've made yourself clear so I'm fully aware of what your view on the battle is, even though I disagree with it and have supported myself many times which you choose to overlook. Thanks for voting on the debate.

Wow. The passive aggressive anger boiling beneath the surface and the faux politeness is strong with this one.

Exactly, that's why I stopped responding. He's acting like a baby. He's winning 7-2 but rather than respect people's votes and be happy, he's attacking the voters passive-aggressively.

Me, I'd just attack the voters aggressively. Especially if I had Superman's power set. In fact...I'd kill any of the people who voted against Superman with the parameters of this debate and their families too just to be safe. Don't want any Frank Castles or Bruce Waynes or Enigo Montoya's vowing their vengeance upon me any time soon, after all. ;D

#69 Posted by Lvenger (19084 posts) - - Show Bio

@perezite: There's no passive aggressiveness in my response to @uberhikari I can assure you. His response that I'm acting like a baby is incredibly laughable given my respectful response to him. If he's upset a character he thought would win is losing this debate, that's fine but I harbour no anger towards him for trying to point out the flaws in his argument. In fact, I welcome it and am glad he voted for dccomicsrules. There are evident merits to his argument that took a lot of thinking to respond to. If I were attacking voters passive-aggressively, I'd be doing it more often.

Anyway that makes the score 8-3 to me.

#70 Posted by Perezite (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@perezite: There's no passive aggressiveness in my response to @uberhikari I can assure you. His response that I'm acting like a baby is incredibly laughable given my respectful response to him. If he's upset a character he thought would win is losing this debate, that's fine but I harbour no anger towards him for trying to point out the flaws in his argument. In fact, I welcome it and am glad he voted for dccomicsrules. There are evident merits to his argument that took a lot of thinking to respond to. If I were attacking voters passive-aggressively, I'd be doing it more often.

Anyway that makes the score 8-3 to me.

Pfff...I'll believe that when you start flying around and using your powers to make the world a better place...for the West.