CAV: dccomicsrules vs Lvenger - VOTING IS NOW OPEN

Emperor Palpatine (@dccomicsrule2011)

VS

Superman - Pre Flashpoint (@lvenger)

Rules

• Movie and EU versions of Palpatine can be used for feats. Pre Flashpoint version of Superman is being used for feats.
• Morals are off. Both characters are going all out to win and defeat their foe
• Random encounter. Neither character knows anything about the other
• Win by KO/Death/Incapacitation/BFR

Location

• Both characters are visible to the other
• They start at opposite ends of the battlefield in image shown
• Fight takes place on Naboo

VOTING IS NOW OPEN!

@dccomicsrule2011 Feel free to check everything's OK. And to make the opening argument. I have to go now but I'll respond in the morning. Good luck, looking forward to this debate"

I cannot wait!!! This is going to be awesome and one to remember!

This should be good

You know it =D

Indeed.

Thanks but I don't need luck when the Force is on my side =P

Let me start off with speed,Palpatine is faster in combat then Superman is,he fights at bear relativistic speeds,while Superman,who is fast,does not:

Sidious throws strokes with his blade so fast that Anakin is incapable of seeing his blows and instead can only see the "webs" left behind by the movements of the lightsabers as well as a black blur as Palpatine moves throughout the office. Anakin is fast enough to react to starfighters flying at substantial fractions of light speed and evade lightning bolts.

Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"

"My thought exactly."

They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

But these particular pilots were far from merely human.

The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.

Anakin's speeder shrieked through the rain, dodging forked bolts of lightning that shot up from towers into the clouds, slicing across traffic lanes, screaming past spacescrapers so fast that his shock-wake cracked windows as he passed.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be

Palpatine

?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.

--Taken from

Revenge of the Sith

In the quotes above Palpatine is able to fight faster then Anakin can see,(the same person that was able to react to sub-light ships which are a respectable fraction of light speed,dodge lighting, and perceive events in a microsecond, and react in a millisecond) This should prove Palpatine has near relativistic combat speed.

This is true. Superman can travel at FTL speeds but he cannot fight at FTL speeds.

Now that's faster than I would have thought. Nonetheless, it is clearly not relativistic speeds you make it out to be. Firstly, dodging lightning is a feat that has been easily performed by street levellers. Secondly, characters like Wolverine, Thor and Deathstroke amongst others have been reported as moving like lightning as it is mentioned in the quote. But does this mean street levellers can fight and react at an average speed of 186,000mph? No it does not. In any case, the speed of lightning is considered to be remarkably slower than the speed of light itself. What's more, although Anakin can react to the starfighter whilst piloting his own craft, that's no more different from now pilots of military jets for example possess highly trained reflexes when flying their own plane. This does not mean they can react to such speeds in their ordinary bodies. And besides, if Palpatine was as fast as you make him out to be, he should have had no trouble soloing any opponents who went up against him. Yet he can be fought by slower opponents such as Yoda or Mace Windu in that example you give. If Palpatine truly possessed relativistic combat speed, he would have had no trouble cutting down any Jedi in his way. Clearly, this is not the case.

And even if Palpatine is faster than I give him credit for, unlike Anakin, Superman can see objects moving at light speed. Here he spots Barry Allen and Wally West, two of the fastest beings in the DCU

Palpatine can react in microseconds? Superman can measure the time between nanoseconds

Palpatine's so called relativistic combat speed is clearly a use of language by the writer to describe the way they're fighting. I'm afraid this does not mean Palpatine can fight at FTL speeds because if he could, that would put him in Flash level combat speed. On panel, Superman definitely has the edge in speed being capable of moving at easily faster than hypersonic speeds, moving faster than the syllable C in Clark and BFRing Parasite before he could absorb Superman's powers

Thus I believe Palpatine should be more than vulnerable to a speedblitz. I could address the other ways Palpatine could attack Superman such as through telekinesis with the Force, Force lightning and the infamous Force Storm but I'll leave that to you to pose to me. Palpatine's combat speed has been addressed I believe.

@lvenger:

This is true. Superman can travel at FTL speeds but he cannot fight at FTL speeds.

Cool.

it is clearly not relativistic speeds you make it out to be.

I said near relativistic speed,not relativistic speed.

Firstly, dodging lightning is a feat that has been easily performed by street levellers.

Cool,but that was done by Anakin who was dodging lighting and driving his speeders at the same time.

Secondly, characters like Wolverine, Thor and Deathstroke amongst others have been reported as moving like lightning as it is mentioned in the quote

??When was it mention Palpatine was moving like Lighting? If anything they said he was fighting at lightspeed:

The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

But does this mean street levellers can fight and react at an average speed of 186,000mph?

This does not refute my point.....at all to be honest as I never said he was Light speed to begin with.

In any case, the speed of lightning is considered to be remarkably slower than the speed of light itself.

I was just naming speed feats for Anakin,never said that justifies it as Lightspeed.

What's more, although Anakin can react to the starfighter whilst piloting his own craft, that's no more different from now pilots of military jets for example possess highly trained reflexes when flying their own plane.

Yes it is,it is clearly different. The quote clearly stated it would be too late for humans to react at to a ship streaking at them at a respectable fraction of lightspeed. The author clearly meant that Anakin reacted to the ship coming at him:

Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

But these particular pilots were far from merely human.

So yes Anakin did react in Sublight timing.

This does not mean they can react to such speeds in their ordinary bodies.

Besides the fact that Anakin has processed information in a microsecond:

What happened next would have consequences yet undreamed of; it was as if Anakin Skywalker were having an epiphany. In a microsecond he saw what was coming and knew where it would lead him, but he was powerless to interfere. He felt like a headstrong and disobedient child being forced to sit still and watch a puppet show. A battle droid stepped into the room from the far side and leveled its blaster at Anakin. Reija Momen stepped in front of him just as the droid fired. The bolt, fired at low power, hit her squarely in the chest and slammed her back into Anakin.

--Taken from Jedi Trial

So yes Anakin with out being in the ship,he has processed information in a microsecond which is one-millionth of a second and one microsecond is to one second as one second is to 11.574 days.

Anakin has even moved so fast he seemed to be everywhere at once,yet he still could not see Palpatine clearly:

"Jedi don't need luck," Anakin said, just as the attack droids swarmed into the hangar.

Blaster fire erupted from the droids, aimed at Anakin but scattered enough so that he feared for Marit and the others. The squad dropped, scrambling for their blasters. Anakin saw at once his problems. Gillam and Rolai had found blasters and were trying to aim at him as he moved.

Fire from the droids was heavy. Marit had ducked behind a starfighter. He did not think he could count on help from her. She seemed dazed. He saw the smile of triumph on Gillam's face as he retrieved and aimed his blaster, and Anakin's anger returned. He reached out to the Force. He remembered the lessons he had learned from Soara Antana, the great Jedi Master.

The Force comes from stillness,

she had said.

Find your still center, even in the midst of battle.

He saw time unspool before him like a ribbon. He saw it freeze like ice on a river. He saw that he had infinite time to do everything he needed.

With an outstretched hand he knocked the blaster from Gillam's grasp and sent it flying across the full space of the hangar. It hit the wall so hard it shattered. Gillam's smile disappeared. At the same time he was moving, diverting the droids' blaster fire from where Tulah and Hurana had taken cover, pushing Ze behind a durasteel container, and knocking out one attack droid with a thrust to its control panel.

Suddenly the laser cannons from the starfighter on his right began to fire. Gillam had slipped inside the cockpit. Anakin did not lose his sense of frozen time. He was the master of time. He did not worry about the laser cannons any more than he'd worried about the attack droids. It all seemed so easy. He seemed to see the fire before it came, and he knew how to move to avoid it. His movements were like shimmersilk, so fluid it was as though he did not have muscles and bones, only will.

Now his Master was here. He could feel that, too. But he did not need him. He spun in midair, taking out two battle droids while he leaped through the laser cannonfire straight at the cockpit of the starfighter. With one backward slash he took out the final droid. He had a flash of Gillam's shocked face as he cut through the windscreen with one slice. With one hand, he threw Gillam out of the pilot's seat and then dropped into it. He turned off the engines and disabled the laser cannons.

Siri and Ferus stood, lightsabers drawn, guarding Rolai, Marit, Hurana, Tulah, and Ze. Obi-Wan had captured Rana Halion. Across the space, he looked at his Master. He waited for Obi-Wan to acknowledge him. The mission was over. He had been successful. He had found Gillam and thwarted an invasion. He waited, standing in the cockpit, looking down. He could feel the flush of triumph on his cheeks. Siri glanced at him, as did Ferus. He could see the astonishment on their faces. But his Master never looked up.

Never had Obi-Wan seen such a display of the Force from a Padawan. From the great Jedi Masters, yes. From Qui-Gon, near the end of his life. But from someone so young? Anakin's power astonished him. He had glimpsed it before, but now he had seen it unfurl, and it staggered him.

He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He had seemed to be everywhere at once. He had destroyed ten attack droids, disarmed his aggressors, and disabled two laser cannons without hesitation, with even a slight smile on his face.

--Taken from Jedi Quest: The School of Fear

So yes Anakin is that fast and Yes he could not see Palpatine clearly so what does that tell you?

And besides, if Palpatine was as fast as you make him out to be, he should have had no trouble soloing any opponents who went up against him.

lol I love when people bring this argument to a debate,for all that if Superman is as fast as you say he should not be getting tagged by bricks like Moungul,yet it happens two can certainly play at that lame game. Furthermore Palpatine to my knowledge has never lost a duel at the height of his power and he has stomped most of the people he went up against.

Yet he can be fought by slower opponents such as Yoda or Mace Windu in that example you give

Mace was amping himself up with Vaapad which allowed him to fight evenly with Palpatine other then that he can easily move faster then Mace could react:

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

As for him stomping his opponents he downright owns 2 of the order top Jedi before they could react:

A fountain of amethyst energy burst from Mace Windu's fist. "Don't try to resist."

The song of his blade was echoed by green fire from the hands of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. Kolar and Tiin closed on Palpatine, blocking the path to the door. Shadows dripped and oozed color, weaving and coiling up office walls slipping over chairs, spreading along the floor.

"Resist? How could I possibly resist?" Still seated at the desk Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. "This is

murder

, you Jedi traitors! How can

I

be any threat to you?"

He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.

Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"

The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.

"It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. "...hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Palpatine has also moved faster then Maul could track

(Darth Maul has perceived his surroundings in slow motion, deflected fire from a small army of multiple squads of droids; performed daily exercises wherein he releases ten thousand blows and repeats the exercise one hundred times each day while still finding time for other activities ,can deliver four to five blows in a eye blink; etc.)

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

--Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Suddenly, my lightsaber is gone. It flies from my hand across the room. It lands in the hand of my Master. I never see him enter. Not if he doesn't want me to. The smile of triumph fades from my face.

"Do you think," Lord Sidious says, walking toward me, "you can ever relax your guard?"

"No, Master." What a clumsy, weak mistake. I should be prepared for him to enter at all times. How could I have forgotten that, even for a moment?

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again," my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.

--Taken from Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul

If Palpatine truly possessed relativistic combat speed, he would have had no trouble cutting down any Jedi in his way. Clearly, this is not the case.

lol I already explained this they only Jedi that gave palpatine a fight in his entire Sith career were Mace, (who was amped) Yoda (who has some ever impressive speed feats and is the second greatest Jedi off all time) and Luke (who in his prime has near relativistic combat speed himself) every other Jedi or Sith he has fought has been lolstomped.

And even if Palpatine is faster than I give him credit for, unlike Anakin, Superman can see objects moving at light speed. Here he spots Barry Allen and Wally West, two of the fastest beings in the DCU

I never said Anakin was faster then Superman,neither did I say Superman would be unable to see him,my point was that Palpatine has better combat speed then Supes does.

Palpatine can react in microseconds? Superman can measure the time between nanoseconds actually no Anakin can process information in a microsecond,Palpatine just moves faster then said Jedi could see.

Palpatine's so called relativistic combat speed is clearly a use of language by the writer to describe the way they're fighting. I'm afraid this does not mean Palpatine can fight at FTL speeds because if he could, that would put him in Flash level combat speed.

Again I never said he was FTL,I said he was near it,not at or above.

On panel, Superman definitely has the edge in speed being capable of moving at easily faster than hypersonic speeds, moving faster than the syllable C in Clark and BFRing Parasite before he could absorb Superman's powers

Hmmm moving faster the the C syllableor moving faster then someone who can perceive the world in slowmotion can see? Decisions,decisions.... I'm taking the latter.

Thus I believe Palpatine should be more than vulnerable to a speedblitz.

No he won't.

I could address the other ways Palpatine could attack Superman such as through telekinesis with the Force, Force lightning and the infamous Force Storm

I will get to the rest of that later.

but I'll leave that to you to pose to me.

Cool

Palpatine's combat speed has been addressed I believe.

It has.....Palpatine combat speed>Superman's.

The lightning point was about Anakin's dodging lightning being massively overshadowed by Palpatine's combat speed. And as for that last sentence, it shows that characters who are reported to move in blurs of motion aren't moving as fast as they make out they are.

It is the same principle however. Although Anakin and Palpatine's reflexes are far from human, they are not on par with a solar powered Kryptonian demigod who sees lightning in slow motion, dodges lasers with ease and moves through a time warp that is capable of slowing the world around him. All of these were performed in combat scenarios with his body. The same cannot be said for Anakin who did all that in a starfighter.

Oh well it's not like Superman hasn't processed far more complex information than Anakin has in that meager one scenario of a battle droid shooting at him(!)

In those last two, he only had a few seconds to memorise the miracle machine, a machine that can grant any wish. Yet he does so in mere seconds and replicates a working one later on. So I'm afraid your comprehending of information doesn't play to your advantage against what Superman can process. As for that Anakin quote, it's a feat other street levellers like Spider-Man have replicated. They've moved so fast that it seems like they're a blur. Yet that doesn't mean they can compare to Superman in the slightest. Anakin's just a bit faster and Palpatine moreso. Superman still holds the edge in what he's done under combat.

I meant beating everyone. People like Yoda, Windu and Luke have kept up with him. If he really moved at near relativistic speeds as you claim he does, this would put him in a whole other combat speed territory. Clearly this is not the case. Funny you should mention Mongul. When he's serious, Superman outclasses him easily

I was about to quibble with the owning of the two top Jedi but then realised that the EU probably gave them feats in their appearences in the EU. So I'll give you that. But whilst Maul's reaction examples are impressive, Superman has that in the bag too. He's caught punches from Professor Zoom, sped up his senses to talk with Flash where time is practically stopped around them and flew an exploding baby away from a populated area in a nanosecond

Not to mention the number of blows he can land on a foe before they know what's hit them. Thus it's safe to say Superman's reactions are more than a match for Palpatine.

And my showings have demonstrated that this is simply not the case. Although he's not light speed, Superman has some very fast combat moves under his belt which outclass the blur of motion and slowed down time motions Jedi such as Anakin have shown. And even if Palpatine is too fast for Anakin to see, he won't be too fast for Superman to see.

I'd be inclined for the former actually considering what else I have posted in favour of Superman. He too can see the world in slow motion and converse fast enough with the Flash where everything looks to be standing still. Hence, it's evident that Superman will definitely be moving too fast for Palpatine to counter and that the speed blitz is still on the cards. With Superman's no holds barred striking power on the table, one shot should be enough to end this guy. Despite the force amping Palpatine's speed impressively, the same cannot be said for strength or durability. The striking power with the force is decent but nowhere near enough to hurt Superman.

@lvenger: Haha dude this is looking good I will get to this later.

@lvenger:

The lightning point was about Anakin's dodging lightning being massively overshadowed by Palpatine's combat speed. And as for that last sentence, it shows that characters who are reported to move in blurs of motion aren't moving as fast as they make out they are.

Cool.

It is the same principle however

How,might I ask? The quote pacifically mentioned Anakin reaction speed,meaning he reacted to a sub-light ship streaking his way it is as simple and easy as that.

Although Anakin and Palpatine's reflexes are far from human, they are not on par with a solar powered Kryptonian demigod who sees lightning in slow motion, dodges lasers with ease and moves through a time warp that is capable of slowing the world around him.

Most of what you have mentioned is not even combat speed,dodging lasers is street leveler feat,seeing lighting in slow motion is good but Luke was able to do that during Rebellion era,when he was far below Palpatine in speed.

All of these were performed in combat scenarios with his body. The same cannot be said for Anakin who did all that in a starfighter.

Anakin has processed information in a microsecond he has also reacted in a millesecond,he has also deflected fighter from armies of droids,fought so fast he seemed to be everywhere at once,moved his lightsaber fast enough light seemed to be everywhere at once;etc and all this was done with put being in a starfighter. And again I'm not saying anakin is faster then Superman....but if someone that can do all those things with there speed to not be able to see Palpatine clearly while he is fighting proves his combat speed is near relativistic speed.

In those last two, he only had a few seconds to memorise the miracle machine, a machine that can grant any wish. Yet he does so in mere seconds and replicates a working one later on.

This is all good,but I'm not doubting Superman's processing speed....it is his combat speed that i'm talking about.

So I'm afraid your comprehending of information doesn't play to your advantage against what Superman can process

Yes it does,remember this is not Palpatine processing....it is Anakin. I'm not saying Anakin is faster then Superman I think you are missing the point,the point is Anakin was able to process info in a microsecond yet he could not see Palpatine clearly while he was fighting, someone who reacted to a ship moving at a respectable fraction of light speed could not even see Palpatine fighting.

As for that Anakin quote, it's a feat other street levellers like Spider-Man have replicated.They've moved so fast that it seems like they're a blur.

What quote? I did not even post a quote with Anakin moving in a blur seeing as how it brings nothing to the table.

Yet that doesn't mean they can compare to Superman in the slightest.

???

Anakin's just a bit faster and Palpatine moreso.

......What? You are trying to tell me Anakin and Palpatine are a bit faster then Spider-Man? lololololololololololol I just drooled all over my keyboard.Thanks for the laugh though. If not i'm sorry for the laughing.

I meant beating everyone. People like Yoda, Windu and Luke have kept up with him.

Mace was amped as I already stated before he was using Vaapad to channel his inner darkness and that was the only reason he competed on even grounds with him,you can view here for the details. As for Yoda,it was a good feat for Yoda to keep up with him....not the other way around,and as I stated before Luke in his prime has near relativistic combat speed as well,so bringing all of this up is a moot point and is a very well put together red herring if you ask me.

he really moved at near relativistic speeds as you claim he does, this would put him in a whole other combat speed territory. Clearly this is not the case.

Already explained this.

Clearly this is not the case.

Really it is, despite the fact that Yoda is the second greatest Jedi ever,Mace was super amped and Luke in his prime has near relativistic combat feats,such as deflecting light speed beams,using his powers in nanoseconds,seeing sub-light ships in slow motion etc.

Funny you should mention Mongul. When he's serious, Superman outclasses him easily

I was just trying to get my point across,I was never intending to lowball Superman.

I was about to quibble with the owning of the two top Jedi but then realised that the EU probably gave them feats in their appearences in the EU.

Okay.

But whilst Maul's reaction examples are impressive, Superman has that in the bag too.

Superman has that in the bag too. He's caught punches from Professor Zoom,

Hmmm this one is interesting, while he did catch up with Zoom,Superman has been burned by Flash speed level characters on multiple occasions:

Gallery

Superman caught Flash but that is after he tried and failed miserably and guess what else......Flash was not even close to going all out he admitted he let Superman catch him:

We also have this:

sped up his senses to talk with Flash where time is practically stopped around them

That's impressive but EU guys like Ben Skywalker etc has done this and he is far below Palpatine in speed.

and flew an exploding baby away from a populated area in a nanosecond

That's more of travel and reaction speed then combat to be honest.

Let me make myself clear here;I'm not saying Palpatine would move to fast for Supes to see,I'm just saying Palpatine has better combat speed, which is throwing blows,reacting to opponents etc, Superman may have the better reaction and perception speed then Palpatine but when it comes to applying that kind of speed to his arms and legs and fighting at near relativistic speed Superman is below Palpatine in that department imo.

And my showings have demonstrated that this is simply not the case.

We will just have to let the voters decide.

Although he's not light speed, Superman has some very fast combat moves under his belt which outclass the blur of motion and slowed down time motions Jedi such as Anakin have shown.

Dude I think you are missing the point I never claimed Anakin was faster then Superman.....my point is given Anakin feats,the fact that he could not see Palpatine fight prove Palpatine is near relativistic in combat.

And even if Palpatine is too fast for Anakin to see, he won't be too fast for Superman to see.

Never said he was.

I'd be inclined for the former actually considering what else I have posted in favour of Superman. He too can see the world in slow motion and converse fast enough with the Flash where everything looks to be standing still.

The point is someone who can view the world at a standstill failed to even see Palpatine,Superman has never moved that fast in combat.

Hence, it's evident that Superman will definitely be moving too fast for Palpatine to counter and that the speed blitz is still on the cards.

No he won't and Palpatine also posses precognition which will help him react even faster.

With Superman's no holds barred striking power on the table, one shot should be enough to end this guy.

That may be true, but Palpatine would be able to dodge a fair share of them.

Another speed feat worth noting Palpatine has been able to reflect blaster bolts from 100's of droids:

On Hypori they were the prey, standing back-to-back in their black zeyd-cloth hooded robes at the center of concentric rings of droids, retrofitted by Baktoid Armor to function as combat automata. Two hundred programmed assailants—bipedal, treaded, some levitated by antigrav generators—armed with a variety of weapons, ranging from hand blasters to short-barreled burst-rifles. Plagueis hadn't allowed his young apprentice to wield a lightsaber until a few years earlier, but Sidious was brandishing one now, self-constructed of phrik alloy and aurodium, and powered by a synthetic crystal. Made for delicate, long-fingered hands—as much a work of art as a weapon—the lightsaber thrummed as he waved the blade from side to side in front of him.

"Every weapon, manufactured by whatever species, has its own properties and peculiarities," Plagueis was saying, his own blade angled toward the ferrocrete floor of the battledome's fabricated cityscape, as if to light a fuse. "Range, penetrating power, refresh rate... In some instances your life might depend on your ability to focus on the weapon rather than the wielder. You must train yourself to identify a weapon instantly—whether it's a product of BlasTech or Merr-Sonn, Tenloss or Prax—so that you will know where to position yourself, and the several ways to best deflect a well-aimed bolt."

Plagueis put his words into action as the first ring of droids began to converge on them, staggering the attack and triggering bursts at random. Orbiting Sidious, the Muun's blade warded off every volley, returning the bolts to their sources, or deflecting them into the facades of the faux buildings surrounding them or into other droids. At other times Plagueis made no attempt to redirect the attacks, but simply torqued his rangy body, allowing the bolts to miss him by centimeters. Around the two Sith, the automata collapsed one after the next, gushing lubricants from holed reservoirs or exploding in a hail of alloy parts, until all were heaped on the ferrocrete floor.

"The next ring is yours," Plagueis said.

Rugged, uninhabited Hypori belonged to the Techno Union, whose Skakoan foreman, Wat Tambor, owed his seat in the Republic Senate to Damask Holdings. In exchange, the bionic humanoid had made Hypori available as a training ground for members of the Echani Sun Guard and provided the necessary battle droids. Calling in another favor, Hego Damask had requested a private session in the fabricated cityscape, so that Plagueis and his apprentice could be free to employ lightsabers—though only for the purpose of deflecting bolts rather than dismemberment or penetration.

When it came Sidious's turn to demonstrate his skill, Plagueis spoke continuously from behind him, adding distraction to the distinct possibility of inadvertent disintegration.

"A being trained in the killing arts doesn't wait for you to acquire him as a target, or establish him or herself as an opponent, as if in some martial arts contest. Your reactions must be instantaneous and nothing less than lethal, for you are a Sith Lord, and will be marked for death."

The droids continued to converge, ring after ring of them, until the floor was piled high with smoking husks. Plagueis issued a voice command that brought the onslaught to an abrupt end and deactivated his lightsaber. The pinging of cooling weapons, the hiss of escaping gas, the unsteady whir of failing servomotors punctuated the sudden silence. Alloy limbs spasmed and photoreceptors winked out, surrendering their eerie glow. The recycled air was rotten with the smell of fried circuitry.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Despite the force amping Palpatine's speed impressively, the same cannot be said for strength or durability. The striking power with the force is decent but nowhere near enough to hurt Superman.

That's why Palpatine will use his Force Storms to damage him,Force Stroms have the power to fold the very fabric of space/time they would do damage to Superman:

"The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything it touches, for at its eye is pure hate. Just as a black hole devours a star, this storm can swallow armies and fold space."

--Taken from

Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. This power allows the Jedi to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortices, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook and Tales of the Jedi Companion

The Force Storm is truly an awe-inspiring demonstration of pure natural energy. After using the Force to open a hyperspace wormhole, tremendous shockwaves will ripple through the fabric of space. Due to the Force Storm's potential for abuse, the Council has recently classified it as a dark side power."

"The Reborn Emperor used this at Da Soocha. It has the power to kill worlds."

—Luke

--Taken from The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force

And it only takes a thought and inclination for Palpatine to make such Storms,he could also BFR Superman with them:

The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadowto plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.

--Taken from Gamer #5

Gallery

Superman would have to deal with this,while he also is getting his Life Force drained; Palpatine has been able to siphoned of the Life energy of 20,000,000,000 on the planet Byss,draining Superman's Life Force would be child's play:

"The galaxy is choked with beings. Billions die every instant. It is better to make use of this resource. At my retreat on Byss, the life force of its colonists supplied an energy pool to sustain my dark side experiments."

--Taken from

Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side

Imperial ships ferried millions of immigrants to the planet Byss, where the Emperor fed off their life energies through the dark side.

--Taken from

The New Essential Guide to Characters

After choosing Byss as his resort world, Palpatine lured eager nobles to the planet—then used his dark powers to enslave its people, channeling their life energies for use in his own vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel.

--Taken from

The Essential Atlas

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

--Taken from

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

@dccomicsrule2011: I'll respond to this tomorrow. Should be interesting deconstructing and countering what you've said.

@lvenger: Cool take your time =D

I'll only answer a few things on combat speed because to be honest, we've covered combat speed to death by now. And I think it's time I address some other things in this debate.

It wasn't as if Anakin reacted to it by moving fast enough to dodge it with his own body like Superman has on many occasions against faster moving objects.

That won't be a problem for Superman as I've mentioned. He's spotted Wally and Barry moving at light speed, sped up his senses to match Flash in conversation and can count the time between nanoseconds. I think that's enough to spot and react to Palpatine.

You misunderstand. What I was in fact saying is that Palpatine and Anakin aren't as fast as you make them out to be. Certainly not in league with Superman's speed.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Hmmm this one is interesting, while he did catch up with Zoom,Superman has been burned by Flash speed level characters on multiple occasions:

Gallery

Superman caught Flash but that is after he tried and failed miserably and guess what else......Flash was not even close to going all out he admitted he let Superman catch him:

We also have this:

I never said Superman was anywhere near any Flash's speed level. I have the issue of the first set of scans and am familiar with the last one. The last one is a travel speed one anyway. And as for the first, although it took Superman a great deal of effort and Barry did indeed let Superman catch him, it's still a credit that Barry was caught by Superman.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

That's why Palpatine will use his Force Storms to damage him,Force Stroms have the power to fold the very fabric of space/time they would do damage to Superman:

"The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything it touches, for at its eye is pure hate. Just as a black hole devours a star, this storm can swallow armies and fold space."

--Taken from

Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. This power allows the Jedi to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortices, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook and Tales of the Jedi Companion

The Force Storm is truly an awe-inspiring demonstration of pure natural energy. After using the Force to open a hyperspace wormhole, tremendous shockwaves will ripple through the fabric of space. Due to the Force Storm's potential for abuse, the Council has recently classified it as a dark side power."

"The Reborn Emperor used this at Da Soocha. It has the power to kill worlds."

—Luke

--Taken from The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force

And it only takes a thought and inclination for Palpatine to make such Storms,he could also BFR Superman with them:

The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadowto plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.

--Taken from Gamer #5

Gallery

Now this is what I wanted to get onto in this debate. The Force Storm. This is the second biggest threat to Superman from Palpatine. I read about them in the second source you give (btw where do you get all your Star Wars info from?) And this is the only thing in Palpatine's arsenal that can honestly hurt Superman. Force Lightning won't do much good against someone who's tanked planet busting explosions and small stars exploding. As for the Force Choke, Superman can disrupt Palpatine's concentration with a blast of heat vision or a gust of super breath. Besides he's shrugged off Manchester Black's telekinesis before. Anyway this is why you've most likely focused on the force storm as Palpatine's means of beating Superman. Granted this does have a chance of beating him. If it doesn't kill Superman, it can BFR him somewhere else and as per the conditions of the battle, this would count as a win.

However, I can safely say it won't get to that stage. Palpatine knows nothing of Superman so won't immediately go for a Force Storm. Superman on the other hand has numerous ways of unleashing a first attack on Palpatine. A superspeed blitz for one

Or chucking buildings upon buildings upon Palpatine. How much can he lift with the Force? If buildings don't cut it, Superman can get something heavier to dump on the Emperor, like a mountain. He's easily capable of lifting something of that magnitude onto Palpatine

If that won't do for you, there's also his heat vision. With nothing holding him back, Superman can go for a wide ranging blast that can catch Palpatine in his gaze

Or go for an instant lobotomy on Palpatine

Superman could also turn Palpatine into a popsicle

Still think Palpatine can pull off a Force Storm in a thought? Because Superman is way faster than a thought. And this is merely a trifle of the ways in which Superman can end Palpatine. Thus the Force Storm won't be opened and Palpatine will be down for the count.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Superman would have to deal with this,while he also is getting his Life Force drained; Palpatine has been able to siphoned of the Life energy of 20,000,000,000 on the planet Byss,draining Superman's Life Force would be child's play:

"The galaxy is choked with beings. Billions die every instant. It is better to make use of this resource. At my retreat on Byss, the life force of its colonists supplied an energy pool to sustain my dark side experiments."

--Taken from

Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side

Imperial ships ferried millions of immigrants to the planet Byss, where the Emperor fed off their life energies through the dark side.

--Taken from

The New Essential Guide to Characters

After choosing Byss as his resort world, Palpatine lured eager nobles to the planet—then used his dark powers to enslave its people, channeling their life energies for use in his own vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel.

--Taken from

The Essential Atlas

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

--Taken from

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Ah now this is something I didn't know about Palpatine. Interesting that he drained 20 billion people. Still he didn't manage to kill them now did he? And Superman has faced energy drainers such as Parasite and Paragon before. He has tactics in place for dealing with them. As I said, Palpatine will be facing a furious assault from Superman in the myriad of ways I have presented above. There'll be no time to drain Superman of his energy, not when Palpatine could be being speed blitzed, having heat vision fired at him and gusts of freeze breath as Superman has been shown doing to Imperiex Probes and Mongul as shown here

@dccomicsrule2011: Are you doing other things now? I notice you're in another tourney so does this mean you won't have time for this debate?

This is looking very good

@lvenger: Sorry for the wait I have been kind of busy on Comicvine lol. But I'm here no so lets get back to it.

I think we have already been over the speed thing,We would just have to leave that up to the voter to decide.

Now this is what I wanted to get onto in this debate. The Force Storm. This is the second biggest threat to Superman from Palpatine.

Okay,now let the real games begin.

I read about them in the second source you give (btw where do you get all your Star Wars info from?)

They are from canon source books that are published like this one

And this is the only thing in Palpatine's arsenal that can honestly hurt Superman.

I agree.

Force Lightning won't do much good against someone who's tanked planet busting explosions and small stars exploding. As for the Force Choke, Superman can disrupt Palpatine's concentration with a blast of heat vision or a gust of super breath.

Again agree.

Anyway this is why you've most likely focused on the force storm as Palpatine's means of beating Superman. Granted this does have a chance of beating him. If it doesn't kill Superman, it can BFR him somewhere else and as per the conditions of the battle, this would count as a win.

That is, until, I get to telepathy and Possession which I will get to much later after addressing some of your various points.

However, I can safely say it won't get to that stage. Palpatine knows nothing of Superman so won't immediately go for a Force Storm.

True,but after Palpatine tries numerous Force abilities on him and notices it has little to no effect he would unleash it.

Superman on the other hand has numerous ways of unleashing a first attack on Palpatine. A superspeed blitz for one

I doubt that would work...Palpatine is faster then Superman is combat wise,and he also has precognition to help him react to Superman before he even makes a move.

Sidious foresees every maneuver Maul and Savage make before they even do them.

But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.

--Taken from

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

So I don't see blitzing as a problem for Sidious

Or chucking buildings upon buildings upon Palpatine. How much can he lift with the Force?

Palpatine greatest TK feats are a collapsing ceilings, causally chucking senate pods, lifting boulders, etc,etc. He even once mused ability to destroy his office and palace with TK if he wanted to. IDK if those feat are sufficient enough for him to be able to stop a building thrown at him,but it won't matter. Palpatine could just move out of the way of the building getting hurled at him. And even if he is killed.....Let's just say that is my ace in the hole for now.

Superman can get something heavier to dump on the Emperor, like a mountain. He's easily capable of lifting something of that magnitude onto Palpatine

Read above.

If that won't do for you, there's also his heat vision. With nothing holding him back, Superman can go for a wide ranging blast that can catch Palpatine in his gaze

Palpatine could possibly use Force Malestrom to deal with HV,

Palpatinesay he mastered the ability:

"Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom, which creates an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning."

--Taken from

Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

or he could just dodge them with his speed.

Superman could also turn Palpatine into a popsicle

I doubt it,Palpatine can control temperature via Alter Environment:

"Not fast enough," Sidious said as a stone smashed into Maul's lower back.

Maul crouched and grabbed the nearest rock. He no sooner lifted it from the ground than he felt it burning into his hand. He yelped as he reflexively opened his fingers and let the rock fall. How could the rock have generated such intense heat? He suspected it was his Master's trickery.

"Oh, come now," Sidious said impatiently. "Almost any humanoid with fingers can do

that."

--Taken from The Wrath of Darth Maul

Still think Palpatine can pull off a Force Storm in a thought?

Yes I do,Palpatine thought process works on one much faster then that of a humans.

Because Superman is way faster than a thought.

And Palpatines thought process is way faster then that of a humans,I doubt Superman is faster then Palpatine's thought.

And this is merely a trifle of the ways in which Superman can end Palpatine. Thus the Force Storm won't be opened and Palpatine will be down for the count.

And there is multiple ways Palpatine could end Superman,TP,Life drain,Possession etc. Force Storms are Superman's 4 biggest threat imo. As for the counters I pointed out above,I'm just posting on how Palpatine could counter Superman's abilities....I'm not saying is going to do those things of course because he won't need to.

@lvenger: Damn Comicvine is acting real crappy to me today so I can't edit my post =( I will just post what I have to say here

Ah now this is something I didn't know about Palpatine. Interesting that he drained 20 billion people. Still he didn't manage to kill them now did he?

No he didn't kill them he was just slowly draining there energy for a steady energy source.

And Superman has faced energy drainers such as Parasite and Paragon before. He has tactics in place for dealing with them.

The thing about though,Palpatine can utilize this ability while, he also uses his TP or Force Storms. Superman would be hard pressed to fight off one of them but two at a time is a bit to much especially considering Palpatine could employ these abilities pretty fast.

Now lets get down to telepathy

Before you say Superman has resisted telepathy before, would like to say this; Superman has fallen to telepathy weaker then Palpatine before. He has fallen to powerful telepathy in the past so I see the same thing happening here he has succumbed to the TP by the likes of Hector Hammon, Braniac,Domino,Martian Manhunter, Max Lord, Gorrilla Grod etc. And I would put all of them besides MM below Palpatine in terms of telepathy.

Palpatine has dominated the minds of 20 billions on Byss:

Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's vile machinations.

Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes

Here he erases the minds of Millions:

The Lusankya—aSuper Star Destroyer eight kilometerslength—laid waste to the area beneath which it had lain buried for years. Green turbolaser bolts pounded the cityscape, freeing the ship from the ferrocrete and transparisteel prison in which it had laired. Wedge knew Super Star Destroyers had only come into service after the Battle of Yavin, which meant the Lusankya had to have been created and hidden on Coruscant before the battle of Endor. Unless the constructor droids just built it there, then built over it. The idea that a hundred-square-kilometer area of the planet could have been razed and rebuilt to hide a Super Star Destroyer seemed beyond belief, especially with no one noticing the ship's insertion into the hole. Could the Emperor's power through the dark side of the Force have been sufficient to compel thousands or millions of people to forget having seen the Lusankya being buried? As hideous as that idea seemed, Wedge hoped it was the truth. The likely alternative—that the Emperor had ordered the deaths of all the witnesses—seemed that much more horrible.

--Taken from

X-Wing: Krytos Trap

He has also been able to tear information out of the minds of Jedi (who are natrually resistant to telepathy)

There was no great collection of Dark Side lore, nor any gather of its masters. Realizing the task that lay before him, Palpatine knew he must begin at once to attain control over the Dark Side. With the resources of the galaxy at his disposal, he gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds. He studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of Jarvashqiine or the tales of the Tyia. Coupled with the perversions of the secrets he ripped from the living minds of Jedi he captured during the Purge, he learned more than ever expected.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

Hell Palpatine has even brought Vader to his knees while on another planet:

Boarding his shuttle, he ordered the pilot to lift off.

A pity, my son,

he thought

. You could have joined me and together...we could have destroyed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy in his place.

As he stared at the severed appendage in his hands, a sudden flash of insight struck the Dark Lord, realization dawning like the sunrise of Bespin.

Perhaps, if you will not be turned, little Jedi, a suitable substitute may be arranged.

Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's...discomfort.

"Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss

my

new trophy."

"Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.

--Taken from The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook: Clone B-2332-54

His telepathy allows him to communicate with others across the galaxy:

Luke fought back to consciousness. He felt a powerful presence in the Force and sat up too quickly. Invisible hammers bashed both sides of his skull. The screen stood dark. On the foot of his flotation bed sat Ben Kenobi, robed as usual in unbleached homespun, shimmering under the cabin's faint night glims. "Obi-wan?" Luke murmered. "What's happening at Bakura?"

Ionized air danced around the figure. "You are going to Bakura," it answered.

"Is it that bad?" Luke asked bluntly, not really expecting an answer. Ben rarely gave them. He seemed to come mostly to reprimand Luke, like a teacher who could not give up hounding his student after graduation (not that Ben had stayed around to finish his training).

Obi-wan shifted on the bed, but the bed didn't shift with him. The manifestation wasn't literally physical. "Emperor Palatine achieved first contact with the aliens attacking Bakura," said the apparition, "during one of his Force meditations. He offered them a deal, one that can no longer be honored."

--Taken from

The Truce at Bakura

He has many other great telepathic showing,if Palpatine decides to use telepathy on Superman he is going down......hard.

Now Possession and Sith Essence

Even if Superman "destroys" Palpatine's vessel,his Sith spirit would allow him to possess him the moment after via Essence Transfer:

Gallery

You may say "Superman can destroy the spirit" but he can't Sith spirits are invisible and intangible, Superman would have no way of harming Palpatine and his only way to kill him is by banishing his essence into into Chaos (which Superman can't) or while Palpatine try's to possess him beat in the battle of wills. Essence Transfer allows the winner of the battle of wills to win over possession of said body,while the losers consciousness is forever lost in Chaos. Seeing as how Palpatine has influenced the minds of billions via TP and was able to return from the void via pure will alone,I don't see Superman beating him....at all.

Oh and credit to Silver2467 for some of the quotes.

@dccomicsrule2011: Do you mind if I get my reply up tomorrow morning? Something came up today and I've been busier than expected. Plus the telepathy argument requires some innovative counters on my part.

It's all good, you can take as much time as you want.

As I said, the sheer speed and force of a morals off assault from Superman will no doubt have Palpatine realing and unable to open a Force Storm. This is a being who, with morals on, has shattered large chunks of a moon or threatened to knock our moon out of orbit or has emitted a blast of heat vision that scorched a large part of the sea. Morals off, he'd be willing to do all kinds things he wouldn't normally do with morals on that would give him a fast win over Palpatine.

We've been over combat speed and I disagree on that front. Superman has on panel confirmation as to how fast he can go whereas Palpatine's movements seem slightly exaggerated by the author. Any more feats of precognition because this seems a bit like combat intuition since Sidious has been training Maul so he knows what kind of moves he might make.

Impressive. That doesn't answer my mountain point but to be honest, a morals off Superman doesn't need to chuck a mountain on Palpatine to end him. I'll count that off the board for now.

What's the capability of the Force Maelstorm? Can it really stop energy beams that have no calculable upper limit? Or heat vision that has been used to expand and contract the Earth's core?

As for the forcefield point, Superman has overcome forcefields before with his heat vision. In Final Crisis #6, Superman rocks back onto the scene and destroys a barrier that not even Supergirl and John Stewart combined (John's ring wasn't running on full steam I admit but his willpower is pretty impressive) could take down. And he does it in a matter of moments

Also, I see you haven't countered my lobotmy point. It is a good stategy non? Once Superman has the Emperor in his sights, a pinpoint beam of heat vision should have the Emperor out of the fight and drooling like a madman.

So freeze breath's not an instant win then. It still holds Palpatine in place long enough for Superman to find some other way to finish him off.

Funnily enough, I can easily counter this assertion

Still care to wager that Palpatine's thought process is faster than Superman's?

Similarly, Superman has a plethora of ways to end Palpatine too. He could BFR him if it honestly comes down to it into the sun, he could destroy the planet itself or he could fly him into space. Obviously though, he won't need to because the more common and easier methods of winning are still accessible to Superman. Speed blitz, one hit KO, heat vision etc

Lastly, Superman is going to be assaulting Palpatine on all fronts in the ways I've mentioned above. Palpatine has never faced a foe quite as powerful as Superman before and quite frankly, he won't be prepared for it nor will he know to go all out straight away. Superman on the other hand has numerous ways of going all out that take Palpatine out of the fight before it gets to this stage. The insane gap in strength and speed Superman possesses demonstrates that.

I'll deal with Palpatine's telepathy and possession in a different post since that's going to require a post of its own.

When does voting start?

@dondave: We aren't done yet. It's taken longer than expected to do this. I still have to address Palpatine's telepathy and possession as ways to take down Superman.

OK this is the biggest threat to Superman from Palpatine. I admit he has been taken down by those guys before. But he has resisted some telepaths before. Here he is resisting Manhunter's TP

Here he resists Arion's mind control with a technique taught to him by Manhunter. Doubly impressive that Arion is a mage so he has one of Superman's weaknesses bagged. Yet Superman still shrugs off his advances

He's also managed to resist an amped Hector Hammond whose TP feats are rather impressive wouldn't you agree?

Nonetheless, Palpatine clearly has the feats to take down Superman. But Superman has the resistance to just about repel Palpatine's TP long enough to down him physically with his superior strength, speed, durability and ranged attacks.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Now Possession and Sith Essence

Even if Superman "destroys" Palpatine's vessel,his Sith spirit would allow him to possess him the moment after via Essence Transfer:

Gallery

You may say "Superman can destroy the spirit" but he can't Sith spirits are invisible and intangible, Superman would have no way of harming Palpatine and his only way to kill him is by banishing his essence into into Chaos (which Superman can't) or while Palpatine try's to possess him beat in the battle of wills. Essence Transfer allows the winner of the battle of wills to win over possession of said body,while the losers consciousness is forever lost in Chaos. Seeing as how Palpatine has influenced the minds of billions via TP and was able to return from the void via pure will alone,I don't see Superman beating him....at all.

Oh and credit to Silver2467 for some of the quotes.

I worried about this for a while but then I realised, thanks to the right feats, that possession wouldn't be a problem for Superman. He's repelled plenty of evil possessors before that dwarf Palpatine in the evil spirit department. I'm fairly certain Superman can repel Palpatine from his body. Want proof to back up my assertion? Here he repels Jericho from his body who can possess anyone he looks at for a temporary time. My warm up feat

"But Lvenger, Superman can't repel Palaptine's unbelievably dominating evil spirit that has enslaved billions before!" I dispute that notion with two other examples. Here Superman, after being possessed by Neron, a powerful, magical demon overlord of Hell itself manages to repel him from his body.

As for my next trick, he's repelled Eclipso, the former Angel of Vengeance and one time Wrath of God itself who has possessed many before Superman and many afterwards. Yet Eclipso doesn't manage to hold him in sway for long and remarks "You beat me! No one's ever done that before! You have hardly any dark side at all!"

Thus, I propose that if Palpatine tries to possess Superman, he'll get way more than he bargained for. If two evil supernatural entities who have possessed many before can't control Superman because he's too pure as Neron says or has hardly any dark side, what chance does Palpatine have if far more powerful beings have tried and failed to hold Superman in their sway? Superman possesses an inherent moral goodness (Etrigan commented on this too though I can't find the scan right now) and this is something Palpatine can't counter. Luke has been made resistant to the Emperor's possession and I recall a scan where in trying to possess Leia's baby, another character jumped in the way and managed to contain Palpatine's essence for a while. It's not a certifiable win in any case. Against a being as good as Superman, Palpatine won't be able to gain a foothold in controlling him and will be repelled from his body with nowhere else to go. Game, set and match to Superman.

Your move, unless you want to open up for voting?

@lvenger: I'm going to have to get to this tomorrow after I post my last rebuttal, ten we can call for votes.

@dccomicsrule2011: All right then, no problem.

@dccomicsrule2011: Just found this totally awesome image that is relevant to our debate in every way :P

@lvenger: All come the fck on, I had my rebuttal up and for some reason when I posted they said publishing error and all my stuff was deleted =(

@dccomicsrule2011: Ouch unlucky. I had a similar problem on here earlier. Did you copy and paste it into a document? I do that sometimes.

@Lvenger: lol yep, I will try to have my post up after I eat dinner xD

@dccomicsrule2011: That's fine. By the way, do you want me to respond to it or shall we open up the voting after your rebuttal?

@dccomicsrule2011: So do you have time for a reply or can I open the voting?

@lvenger: Sorry for the wait been busy lol.

As I said, the sheer speed and force of a morals off assault from Superman will no doubt have Palpatine realing and unable to open a Force Storm.This is a being who, with morals on, has shattered large chunks of a moon or threatened to knock our moon out of orbit or has emitted a blast of heat vision that scorched a large part of the sea.

That's the thing though as I have already showed, it takes Palpatine nothing but a thought and inclination to open a Force Storm:

"I have learned that Anger and Will, joined together, are the greatest Power.

I have learned to meditate upon Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of Dark Side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released—the energies of the dark side of the Force.

Standing watch with the mind, in my meditation of Anger, I have slain my enemies from great distances, through the dark side Power that permeates the galaxy. I have created lightning, and unleashed its destructive fire.

Using this knowledge, I can unleash the dark side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created

storms

.

Through a simple act of Will, I can generate Force Storms, energy storms that are vastly destructive and virtually unstoppable. Although triggering such storms requires merely thought and inclination, I admit I am not yet able to completely control the phenomenon. Among my goals is to perfect this control."

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

It takes no time for him to open up a Hyperspace wormhole he even done it the moment he "died" at the BOE:

The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadowto plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.

--Taken from Gamer #5

It is also worth noting he did not even fully master Force Storms then, yet he still is able to make one quickly and with great precision. Seeing as how his thought process should be in the nanosecond range, I see no reason for him not being able to open one up.

Morals off, he'd be willing to do all kinds things he wouldn't normally do with morals on that would give him a fast win over Palpatine.

Palpatine with no morals would have no trouble just using Force powers instead of saber combat (seeing as how Superman does not even have a light saber to begin with) Palpatine could just start of with Telepathy from the beginning and end this (I will save the rebuttal for telepathy for last)

We've been over combat speed and I disagree on that front. Superman has on panel confirmation as to how fast he can go whereas Palpatine's movements seem slightly exaggerated by the author.

I have no idea how it is an "exaggeration" of speed, Fact: Anakin has been able to react to sub-light ships, Fact: Palpatine has fought faster then he could see. That proves Palpatine was fighting at sub-light to near relativistic speed.

Any more feats of precognition because this seems a bit like combat intuition since Sidious has been training Maul so he knows what kind of moves he might make.

Palpatine never trained Savage Opress,yet, he was able to predict his movements before he does it. Also if that's not enough here we have Palpatine forseeing events in the future and past:

Sidious had never learned how Plagueis’s own Master had met his end. Had he died at Plagueis’s hand? Had Plagueis, too, experienced a similar exultation on becoming a sole Sith Lord? Had the beast of the end time risen then to peek at the world it was to inhabit, knowing its release was imminent?

He raised his gaze to the ecliptic. The answers were out there, coded in light, speeding through space and time. Liquid fire coursing through him, visions of past and future riffling through his mind, he opened himself to the reconfigured galaxy, as if in an effort to peel away the decades...

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Impressive. That doesn't answer my mountain point but to be honest, a morals off Superman doesn't need to chuck a mountain on Palpatine to end him. I'll count that off the board for now.

To answer the question no, he can't. I'm not even going to say he could because I would be flat out lying and spreading false information. But as I said again Palpatine would have a Force Storm created before Superman could even attempt throwing a mountain at him.

What's the capability of the Force Maelstorm? Can it really stop energy beams that have no calculable upper limit? Or heat vision that has been used to expand and contract the Earth's core?

To be honest I don't know lol I just posted to see what kind of rebuttal you would come up with xD.

As for the forcefield point, Superman has overcome forcefields before with his heat vision. In Final Crisis #6, Superman rocks back onto the scene and destroys a barrier that not even Supergirl and John Stewart combined (John's ring wasn't running on full steam I admit but his willpower is pretty impressive) could take down. And he does it in a matter of moments

That maybe true, but it really won't matter, even if Superman does "kill" Palpatine, he would just possess him. And I still think Palpatine could use his Force Storms almost as fast as Superman uses his HV.

Also, I see you haven't countered my lobotmy point. It is a good stategy non? Once Superman has the Emperor in his sights, a pinpoint beam of heat vision should have the Emperor out of the fight and drooling like a madman.

In all honestly I did not even see. Regardless, Superman would have a hard time trying to do it an opponent who is moving at near relativistic speed. Not to mention Palpatine could just put him down as soon as the battle starts via TP.

Still care to wager that Palpatine's thought process is faster than Superman's?

I really meant Palpatine's thought process is faster then Superman can move (which it is) Now it has never been stated how fast Palpatine thought process works, but seeing as how Palatine can succesfully react and control his movement at sub-light to realetivistic speed and much slower Force sensitives such as Anakin has been able to react in a millisecond and process info in a microsecond, and Force sensitives around his level has been able to use there powers in nanoseconds and process info in the same time, I would put his thought process in the nanosecond range.

Similarly, Superman has a plethora of ways to end Palpatine too. He could BFR him if it honestly comes down to it into the sun, he could destroy the planet itself or he could fly him into space. Obviously though, he won't need to because the more common and easier methods of winning are still accessible to Superman. Speed blitz, one hit KO, heat vision etc

I countered some of these points above so all I will say is this; Superman has no way to destroy Palpatine's essence. All he could hope for is a stalemate, I heard some people say Superman can adjust his heat vision to a different wavelength and tag intangible foes but I have yet to see him do so, in fact there is evidence to support the contrary:

Albeit that is not Superman,but it is a version that is sporting the same abilities and is more powerful then him by a respectable fraction.

Lastly, Superman is going to be assaulting Palpatine on all fronts in the ways I've mentioned above. Palpatine has never faced a foe quite as powerful as Superman before and quite frankly, he won't be prepared for it nor will he know to go all out straight away.

Honestly I doubt if Superman has gone up against someone with Palatines unique set of abilities either. And on second thought I see no reason to why Palpatine would not just go all out right away, he does have morals off and he is bloodlsuted and he did view the lightsabers inferior to the Force so I do not see why Palpatine would not go for his most powerful attack right away.

Superman on the other hand has numerous ways of going all out that take Palpatine out of the fight before it gets to this stage. The insane gap in strength and speed Superman possesses demonstrates that.

I have already been over speed so it is really a waste of time addressing it again

I'll deal with Palpatine's telepathy and possession in a different post since that's going to require a post of its own.

Same here, I will have my rebuttal for your rebuttal in another post.

I'm just going to make one last reply to this point and the telepathy/possession point and then I think we should open up the votes

Here's the thing. Superman is easily faster than a thought as shown here when he BFRs Parasite before any of the other villains can fully comprehend what's going on

and is more than capable of reacting in under a nanosecond

So he has Palpatine well and truly matched in this category if not outclassed in this category rendering him all the more vulnerable to a speed blitz assault from a physically superior foe that Palpatine is not used to fighting at all. So Palpatine won't have much time or the ability to pull off a force storm when Superman comes at him with a speed blitz assault.

As I said, he isn't used to the speed and strength of Superman so won't be able to judge what abilities he should use right off the bat.

Fact: It's not that much different from the reactions of human fighter pilots. It's merely scaled up. Fact: It's an exaggeration of the writer's description of the fight, a play on the language to evoke certain imagery. This counters the assertion Palpatine can fight at sub light to near relativistic speeds because if he could fight at those speeds, not many foes would trouble him.

The first is fine although Opress fights like a wild animal so it's not too hard to predict his moves. And as for the second, no specified visions of the future or past are given unless they're specified later on in this source of yours?

I'm very certain that in the physical fight, Superman will decimate Palpatine if he can launch a speed blitz assauly and stave off the telepathy and draining long enough to finish him before he creates a Force Storm. I've addressed the possession point previously and shall do so again in your rebuttal. What's more, I doubt the Force Storm can be activated anyway near as beams of light emitted from Superman's eyes.

Superman has the feats to stave off Palpatine's TP long enough to physically end him. And in a choke hold, Palpatine can't do much to escape from an instant lobotomy

You think Palpatine can think faster than the near light speed fighter? That's doubtful for Palpatine even with his power and control over the Force. As you say, it's never been specified how fast Palpatine can think so conjecture at it is hard to do. And I've provided scans of Superman processing comprehensive information in seconds and measuring the time between nanoseconds. Palpatine has yet to provide iron clad feats of that kind.

@lvenger:

Let me just address a few thing before moving on to telepathy/possession:

Fact: It's not that much different from the reactions of human fighter pilots. It's merely scaled up. Fact: It's an exaggeration of the writer's description of the fight, a play on the language to evoke certain imagery.

Yes it is much different it was even stated in the panel why you choose to deny this I have not a clue. Hell Rebillion era Luke (who is equal to Anakin in speed) has been able to see sub-light ships in slowmotion:

Luke reached out. The Force was here, as it was everywhere, and it was no harder to touch deep in space than it was in the swamps on Dagobah. He let it fill him. The TIE fighters suddenly seemed to be moving slower. Luke’s hands flew over the controls; he moved the stick with sharp and precise movements. Swung to his starboard and lit the lasers, double-tapped the fire button.
Lines of fire lanced out and shattered one, two of the four TIE fighters. The explosion spat a hard spray of wreckage at him as Luke looped away. Shards of the destroyed TIEs sleeted against the X-wing’s transparisteel canopy, a meal and plastic hail.

--Taken from Shadows of the Empire

So no it is way different in fact it is scientific fact that time dilation in space plays little factor when your moving at speeds a respectable fraction of light speed so again nice try but this argument fails completely.

This counters the assertion Palpatine can fight at sub light to near relativistic speeds because if he could fight at those speeds, not many foes would trouble him.

*sigh* Again with the red herring? Only 3 people has ever been able to fight closely with Palpatine 3 Mace Windu (who had a monster amp as I have already showed) Yoda ( who is the second greatest Jedi ever and has alot of great speed feats) and Luke Skywalker (the greatest Force sensitive in the history of Star Wars) and has near relativistic speed himself that is shown by him being able to deflect light speed beams, use his power in nanoseconds,see sub-light ships slowed down etc etc. Every other person Palpatine has ever went up against stood no chance at all. Before the amp he killed to master Jedi before Mace could even register what happen, he has fought to fast for Maul to see, he has fought to fast for Anakin to see, he has fought to fast for leia to see (who has superhuman speed in her own right) I can go on and on and on. I do not know why do you keep on bring up that point, it seems to me like your just grasping.

Here's the thing. Superman is easily faster than a thought as shown here when he BFRs Parasite before any of the other villains can fully comprehend what's going on

He fights faster then normal thought but Palpatine is far from normal given his impressive speed feats,thus he thought process is much faster then there as well.

As I said, he isn't used to the speed and strength of Superman so won't be able to judge what abilities he should use right off the bat.

Palpatine with no morals and bloolusted would have no problem going for his greater powers. They only abilities that would be ineffective against Superman would be TK and Force Lighting everything else he employs would be effective against him. So he has a better chance at going for his most powerful Force ability then not when he is going all out and holding absolutely nothing back.

So he has Palpatine well and truly matched in this category if not outclassed in this category rendering him all the more vulnerable to a speed blitz assault from a physically superior foe that Palpatine is not used to fighting at all. So Palpatine won't have much time or the ability to pull off a force storm when Superman comes at him with a speed blitz assault.

No he does not and I'm not going to even go there again. I'm just going to lead that up to the voters.

Now on to telepathy

OK this is the biggest threat to Superman from Palpatine. I admit he has been taken down by those guys before. But he has resisted some telepaths before. Here he is resisting Manhunter's TP

Now lets look at the true context to that scan....

@citizenbane has already debunked that scan already it was not resistance at all. All Superman really did was shown MM a horrible vision included Superman IIRC and J'onn felt sorry for him and was sympathetic. It had nothing to do with telepathy resistance. Context, my dear friend context. So no he has never resisted the martian as far as I know.

Also credit to him for some of these scans as well.

As for the rest Superman has been brought down by telepathy much more often then not and going by consistent feats, he is not resisting someone who can causally mind wipe millions and effortlessly mind control the minds of 20 billion being simultaneously.

Gallery

Falling to Manchester Black

Hell you post him resisting Hammond, I can also post scans of him failing against Hammond:

Gallery

Neither Hammond or Black are on Palpatine level.

Protex was able to create an illusion of Green K that tricked him into believing it was real:

Gallery

Hell even Deuce has messed with his mind:

I would post scans of Superman getting effected by Brainiac's tp but I don't have those on be at the moment.

We also have to add in the fact that Palpatine was able to gain a mental hold over Luke (luke has better telepathy resistance feats then Supes has. He is also and accomplished telepath himself seeing as how he has been able to read minds,put others to sleep,hypnotize people,mind control them, restore memories, rip out information etc. Yet he still fell under Palpatines control:

Gallery

Palpatine: Curse you, Jedi! No. A curse is not necessary. I have something better for you. Skywalker! I have broken you. Now, prove yourself worthy of serving me. (Sound of lightsaber activating.)

Luke: Yes, my master.

Palpatine: Bring your sister over to the dark side. You have the power.

Leia: (Sounds of waving lightsabers.) I don't know what he's done to you, Luke, but this time we're really leaving.

Luke: Leia, put the lightsaber away. I don't want to hurt you.

Leia: The last thing I'd do is hurt you, Luke. What's happened to you is not final.

Palpatine: (Palpatine laughs.) He cannot hear you, child. To him, you are a ghost. The faint memory of a former life.

Leia: Luke...listen. (Sound of lightsaber deactivating.) Luke. Oh, what have you done? What's behind his vacant stare?

Palpatine: Why, nothing, my child. Nothing. (Sound of the Force being used. Sound of speech echoing within Luke's mind.)

Luke: Nothing.

Palpatine: You are nothing.

Luke: Where am I?

Palpatine: Alone.

Luke: No. Help me.

Palpatine: There is no one. There is only the dark side.

Luke: I am a Jedi. (Luke screams.)

Palpatine: You are not a Jedi. You are nothing. You have no name.

Luke: My name is Skywalker. (Luke screams.)

Palpatine: You...have...no...name!

Luke: I...

Palpatine: Accept the dark side. You have no name.

Luke: I have no name.

Palpatine: You serve the dark side.

Luke: I serve...

Palpatine: Listen to the voices.

Luke: The voices...

Palpatine: Of the dark side.

Luke: Yes.

Palpatine: The one law is fear. The one fear is power. The one power is hate.

Luke: Hate.

Leia: Luke.

Palpatine: Hate.

Leia: Luke, clear your mind.

Luke: Leia?

Palpatine: The one law is fear. The one fear is power!

Leia: Luke, I'm your sister. I need you.

Luke: My sister.

Palpatine: You are alone.

Leia: Luke, listen to my voice. My child...will be a very great Jedi, because you will train him. You will train all my children in the ways of the Force.

Palpatine: Do not listen!

Luke: The Force... Leia... The Force... I am not alone. I am never alone! (Sound of Force fades. Sound of voices returning to normal audibility.)

Palpatine: No! This can't be. No one returns from the dark side. You're mine!

Luke: Leia, help me. I've gone too far. I've found knowledge, all the dark things Father knew so well. The ability to control others, to destroy others if he chose, if I chose. Ben warned me; Yoda warned me. But I had to do it, Leia! I had to know what happened to our father! I had to know why he chose the dark side.

Leia: And now you know what happened to our father. It's time to come home, Luke.

Palpatine: Do not listen to her. Listen to the voice of the dark side. Your power is immense.

Luke: No. The powers of control and destruction weren't the only things I found in the dark side, Emperor. I also found great isolation and sadness. I found fear. These are the feelings my father felt. The feelings you feel, in your moments of darkest triumph.

Palpatine: Nonsense! Curse you Skywalkers, both of you! I'll tell you the truth about your father. (Sound of the Force being used. Luke screams. Sound of Force fades.)

Palpatine: The great Darth Vader was a sick man in an iron mask! Yes, that mask inspired terror throughout the galaxy, but the feeble heart within was forever possessed by the impotent side of the Force. You can be far stronger than he was. Dark Jedi, are you going to let your weak sister get the better of you? Get up! I can give you the power to break her. You will kill your sister, if I demand it!

Luke: No! I made a mistake. I thought I had to save the galaxy alone, all by myself. But the way of the Jedi is not a solitary path.

Leia: (Leia gasps.) The Holocron! Luke, the Holocron told me to join with my brother!

Luke: Yes. The Force binds us. Brings us together. Many people are fighting this war together. Our ally is the Force. Through the strength of the Force, your shroud of evil has been lifted from my mind!

--Taken from the Dark Empire audio drama

He needed the help of Leia and Anakin to break the grips of Palpatine's hold. Superman is falling to Palpatine's mental assault, period.

Now Possession:

Thus, I propose that if Palpatine tries to possess Superman, he'll get way more than he bargained for. If two evil supernatural entities who have possessed many before can't control Superman because he's too pure as Neron says or has hardly any dark side,

And that's all I need to hear, the essence transfer is not like normal possession, it is simply a battle of wills between two being tussling for control of the body it has nothing to do with purity or telepathy simply a battle of wills as explained here:

It's not conventional possession, it is basically a battle of two consciousness,battle of two will , the losers being destroyed and sent to Chaos. So now it goes down to who has the better will? Palpatine has been able to dominate the wills of billions, Will himself from the void with sheer will power alone ( a Sith spirit cannot exist with out an item to latch on too, but Palpatines will was so strong he was able to break out of the void with sheer will power alone and nothing else)

what chance does Palpatine have if far more powerful beings have tried and failed to hold Superman in their sway? Superman possesses an inherent moral goodness (Etrigan commented on this too though I can't find the scan right now) and this is something Palpatine can't counter.

Already addressed.

Luke has been made resistant to the Emperor's possession

No he has never, in fact Palpatine has even stated that he could possess anyone if he wanted to including Luke.

and I recall a scan where in trying to possess Leia's baby, another character jumped in the way and managed to contain Palpatine's essence for a while.

That was because Brand knew a secret technique that not even Luke knew, something Superman has not even the slightest clue about. And even then it took the combine might of all of the jedi who ever lived to finally banish Palatines spirit into Chaos for good. Superman has noway at all to do this he is going down to Palpatines Essence.

It's not a certifiable win in any case.

Yes it is.

Against a being as good as Superman, Palpatine won't be able to gain a foothold in controlling him and will be repelled from his body with nowhere else to go. Game, set and match to Superman.

Yeah game,set and match for Palpatine.

@lvenger: Ready for votes when you are, I pretty much said what I had to.

@lvenger gets my vote. This was a pretty tight debate both dccomicrules2011 and lvengers performed excellently

In regard to Supermans TP defence. In the scans you showed of him against Martian Manhunter, he didn't stop MMH because of telepathic defence but because Maggedon IIRC had implanted visions of the future in Superman's mind which horrified him into stopping his attack, he did read Superman's mind but he didn't like what he saw. Superman couldn't replicate it again

Other than that this was an excellent debate

@dondave: Not to challenge your opinion or anything, but wpuld you care to share why?

While I felt you provided many avenue for Sidious to win, I felt that Lvenger was able to counter your point's and provide why Superman could win

@dccomicsrule2011 gets my vote.

-Palpatine has faster combat speed. Even if Superman can process information faster than Palpatine, he can't move faster than Palpatine.

-Even if Superman and Palpatine were equal in combat speed, Palpatine still has precognition that would tell him what Superman would do even before Superman himself knew what he would do.

-Superman has no defense against Palpatine's TP

-Palpatine can use Force Storms + Drain and the fight would basically be over.

@dccomicsrule2011: I did want to reply to this but it seems voting has started so I'll only make a few bullet point replies to it

• In those scans with Black, Superman is shown overcoming the illusion Black had created for Superman.
• I object wholeheartedly to your point that Palpatine can possess Superman. If underworld lords and fallen angels can't assert their will over Superman, what hope does Palpatine have of conquering the pure hearted Man of Steel? Superman's will is nothing to be schoffed at given his unwavering moral compass and prior feats of resisting possession so I see no reason why Superman will fall to Palpatine's possession
• On a slightly off topic note, if I'd used Hal in the debate, the possession wouldn't have worked given Hal's past resistance to Parallax and the emotional entities
• Finally, this debate has convinced me that Palpatine can take the majority in an character fight since Superman won't use the tactics I've suggested here straight away. But morals off, Superman will use lethal force right off the bat and that isn't something Palpatine can counter. But great debate man, best of luck to you in the voting! Do you want to call in some voters since that's what I'm going to do next

Respectfully, I do give reasons why Palaptine's combat speed is nowhere near what my opponent claims it is and how the precognition has little bearing on the fight. Superman does have limited TP resistance feats and if he goes all out straight away, Palaptine won't be able to gain an advantage from a speedblitz assault. But I do agree Sidious has a good chance of winning this and can take the majority in an character fight.

Voting is now open!

@dredeuced@comicstooge@cadencev2@neongamewave@ancient_0f_days@nickzambuto@god_spawn@deranged_midget@theacidskull

Would you guys mind voting on this debate if it's not too much trouble and you have time to spare reading it?

@theacidskull: Thanks for the vote mate! I have to admit this debate has shown me a lot of things about Palpatine's capabilities.

So the current score is 2-1 to me.

I've previously read this debate and just read dccomicsrules last reply.

And I gotta say, this was a top notch debate...however, I must go with @lvenger.

He countered his opponents arguments and dealt with his solutions Palpatine's attacks extremely well and has convinced me that Superman would indeed win.

@comicstooge: You used Palpatine in that debate with neon so clearly you know him well. Thanks for the vote man, I appreciate it!

Sorry @dccomicsrule2011, but @lvenger takes this one.

You made a strong case though, better than most could have done..

I forgot some people

@beatboks1@esquire@backflip@jedixman@silver2467 Would you guys mind voting on this debate if you have the time to spare? Please vote for who you think was the best debater, not which character you think would win.

Lot to read and I haven't seen it before.

Posting so I can find and come back to this soon ( dog tired)

@lvenger: The ONLY reason you get my vote is because Morals Off. If Supermans Character was being debated like this I would definitely be convince Sideous would win because of Sideous Speed and Versatility.