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#301 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks said:

However, this notion is heavily contradicted in fiction. Many sub-light characters including Superman still appear invisible to human eyes even though the observers are quite far away from him.

While light experiment are true, there are still other factor to consider. Human's reflex response to visual stimuli is 18-300 millisecond. The camera is 100,000 times faster, let say most human have 150 millisecond reaction time, then the camera can see event happening in 0.0015 millisecond, that's 1.5 microsecond, and we know to observe something traveling at the speed of light required femto photography, this require few nanosecond to picosecond of precision to see light moving. That alien camera is far thousands of times slower than what it takes to see something moving at light speed.

And by the way, human can process about 12 images per second, the alien's camera can process 1.2 million images per second. But surprise, the fastest camera our real world have can process an astonishing trillion images per second! That camera is in MIT by the way. We can see photon wave moving with that camera, but the wave still move relatively fast. Alien's camera is 833,333 slower than MIT's camera, so it can't observe light moving. That's pretty good enough to infer that Goku can't react faster than light, let alone close to light speed.

I'm in hurry typing this, so expect that my wording can be poorly done, but you can discuss it and I'll break it down.

But Superman doesn't fight and become invisible, he's just invisible when he zips past people. I already addressed this.

And @limpoyzloan: wasn't the camera in the Cell Saga supposed to be fast enough to 'see a solar flare'? Or am I just high? You remember the one I'm talking about, right? The one that was 100,000 times better at seeing than Tien?

Actually, if I recall in the anime the cameraman explicitly said the camera was faster than light, but not fast enough to catch them. Indeed, Goku was fast enough to escape the Imprisonment Light Ball from Frieza in the manga at SS1, which used light that paralyzed, and I believe Piccolo stated that Goku managed to escape from the light before it paralyzed him, i.e. faster than light.

Of course this is all more or less irrelevant, since Toriyama blatantly stated that at SS1 Goku was ftl so could catch the ftl Dragonballs. Maybe not exactly like that, but you get the point. It's a feat. He can catch FTL objects by reacting and putting his hand up, i.e. he's FTL.

I would have posted tons of things like this if CS had done more than compare my calcs to GT, buut he didn't.

Superman can already be truly invisible by vibrating himself, and again, he isn't faster than light either.

There you go, the writer (or the translator) shamelessly give off the wrong science again. 100,000 times faster than human eyes are not enough to see even something moving near light speed. You need to be over billions of times faster than that. MIT's camera is even more powerful than alien's camera, as you can see, and the camera is over 800 thousand times slower than MIT's.

And someone with superhuman durability can catch something moving faster than light without themselves having to be as fast as light. How far is the Dragonballs from Goku? With enough distance, he can react first and catch the ball in time.

#302 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks said:

Superman can already be truly invisible by vibrating himself, and again, he isn't faster than light either.

There you go, the writer (or the translator) shamelessly give off the wrong science again. 100,000 times faster than human eyes are not enough to see even something moving near light speed. You need to be over billions of times faster than that. MIT's camera is even more powerful than alien's camera, as you can see, and the camera is over 800 thousand times slower than MIT's.

And someone with superhuman durability can catch something moving faster than light without themselves having to be as fast as light. How far is the Dragonballs from Goku? With enough distance, he can react first and catch the ball in time.

Well, according to science if you go above the speed of light you'd create a Big Bang just like you create sonic booms when you go faster than the speed of sound, but that's neither here nor there. Also technically they'd all be tachyons.

And...yeah. Though on further research I can't actually remember where I pulled up the number that the camera was 100,000 times faster than the human eye, I'll have to look it up, but it might be not true and the cameraman could just be right.

EDIT: I have no idea where I got that number.

But the imprisonment light ball feat shouldn't go uncontested here either.

Also, as for the dragonballs, while Toriyama said it was possible, it's valid to note that it never actually happened outside of this instance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZRzidGi4xE

though that's only because the Z-Fighters aren't assholes and wanted other people to find them, not to mention that Shenron would b*tchsmack all of them.

(I can't find the manga scan, which doesn't include all of the unnecessary bullcrap stalling and is just goku jumping up and catching it, though that's really just him knowing where the dragonball was going to fly off)

TL;DR four examples of Goku going FTL at SS1

1) Toriyama said so; he is the only writer

2) Photons bouncing off of him is the only way to actually be invisible; molecules vibrating doesn't make sense

3) Cameras that could capture faster than light couldn't see him

4) Escaped paralyzing light by going faster than it

#303 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: I don't remember anything like that. It's been a long time since I've read the manga. I mean, why would he bring a light speed camera to see Mr. Satan fight? He's not even remotely that fast. And would I be able to find that interview on the intended endings guide on Kanzenshuu?

#304 Posted by SonDeathEater (608 posts) - - Show Bio
#305 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@sondeatheater: Nice.

But we still have no proof those lasers are light speed.

#306 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan:

First it was in the anime only

Secondly, ummmmm maaaybe. I will try to find a link for you.

#307 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio
#308 Edited by Freefa11 (2397 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

I've been thinking about this for a while. Ultimately I'm voting in your favor. I do think there were flaws. You included some things that you wound up concluding yourself were irrelevant, which is just a waste of time. Your layout of the argument and how you are applying certain multipliers for different points in Goku's continuity could be clearer. I also simply do not understand the 26,000+ speed "multiplier." From the equation you gave, it looks like I and g are the same, thus canceling and immediately reducing the equation to a simple ratio of Goku's lifting force compared to his own body weight. I don't see how that constitutes a multiplier, it's basically just a different way of expressing how strong he was at that moment. I also don't have "Death Battle" memorized, and don't remember what they said about the equation, or where it comes from, but I shouldn't have to have seen Death Battle at all; all the important information about the equation should be included in your post.

Still, even with all that, the numbers you gave still give Goku considerable superspeed, as well as very high durability and blasting power, and I do not recall ComicStooge really challenging your calcs. So he should be able to strike before Darkseid, and hit him with more than enough force to obliterate him, and even if DS gets the first shot, Goku should be able to tank it. CS did not, IMO, provide adequate proof of Darkseid's own speed; one scan described it as "unthinkable," which is basically just poetic license for "really fast." Since it isn't quantified, it's not useful. The other feat he actually attributed to Desaad, which means that it is Desaad's feat, not Darkseid's. I get that conventional wisdom holds Darkseid as physically superior to Desaad in every way, but conventional wisdom holds the same is true of Superman. If you're going to start arguing Desaad has high-level superspeed abilities, you can't just fall back on what everyone has always assumed about him, you have to re-evaluate the whole character, which wasn't done here. Also, I found his point about DS's soul irrelevant; he laid out himself the terms of winning, with KO and death on the list. Nowhere does he say "complete destruction of Darkseid's soul." So if DS gets KO'd, Goku wins. If DS's body is killed, Goku wins. I also think he was exaggerating how much of a threat DS's soul could be anyway.

Sorry if that's a bit overlong, but yeah, ultimately I feel the damage output you argued for Goku exceeds what CS gave for Darkseid's durability by far too much, and you argued better for his speed, even without the 26,000 multiplier.

BTW, I wouldn't worry much about DS's telepathy. Post-crisis, he really didn't have it. At no point does he ever read, invade, or manipulate anyone's mind completely under his own power. There's even an exchange he has with Vermin Vunderbar at one point, that heavily implies he cannot even read minds. Scott Free's statement doesn't prove anything, it just shows he thinks Darkseid can do it. The mind-linking done in Our Worlds at War was accomplished when everyone was already telepathically communicating via Martian Manhunter.
Pre-Crisis DS isn't much better. There is the one instance with Lonar, but every other instance of DS draining the ALE information from someone's mind is done with technology, not just on his own. Other than that, you've got the Great Darkness Saga, which takes place 1,000 years in the future, and after DS drained the power of Mordru, Timetrapper, a whole planet of mages, and a bunch of powerful artifacts.
So yeah, vanilla Darkseid, in his entire continuity, basically has one feat of mental assault, and it's against a c-list character like Lonar. Color me unimpressed. Like I said, I wouldn't worry about DS's telepathy.
One other thing, though I tried not to let this influence me too much, but some CS's arguments weren't really valid. There is no evidence that Darkseid's attack on the AM were his Omega Beams, for example, and the degree to which AM was weakened was heavily glossed over (he could barely take out Kal-L at that point). Darkseid did not kill Doomsday, he just knocked him down and buried him in rubble. The scan with Lobo is non-canon. There are a couple of others, but since they mostly didn't get heavy use, I don't feel like dwelling on it. This is why it is difficult to argue with certain comic character though; they have hundreds of appearances scattered all over the place, many of which people haven't actually read, plus all the retcons and revisions, and keeping an accurate chronology of what the character did and when is extremely tricky.

#309 Posted by ComicStooge (13100 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@thedarklordpandamonium: Oh and to answer what you asked me a few pages back, I'm going with @comicstooge: simply because I think he put up the better case, Goku as no defense against telepathy as far as I know and Babahdi did not use telepathy it was magical possesiong that only works on beings with un-pure hearts. Not to I don't see Goku resisting getting manipulated by DS OB if he decides to go that rout. Also no offense but I take actual feats over fan made calculation any day of the week. Nonetheless it was a fine debate and was certinly imformative.

>_<

Freaking Comicstooge told me he'd only offer to debate me with Goku when he found a character w/o telepathy, and then four people vote for him because of DS's telepathy.

Darkseid's telepathy isn't all that great.

#311 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@thedarklordpandamonium: Oh and to answer what you asked me a few pages back, I'm going with @comicstooge: simply because I think he put up the better case, Goku as no defense against telepathy as far as I know and Babahdi did not use telepathy it was magical possesiong that only works on beings with un-pure hearts. Not to I don't see Goku resisting getting manipulated by DS OB if he decides to go that rout. Also no offense but I take actual feats over fan made calculation any day of the week. Nonetheless it was a fine debate and was certinly imformative.

>_<

Freaking Comicstooge told me he'd only offer to debate me with Goku when he found a character w/o telepathy, and then four people vote for him because of DS's telepathy.

Darkseid's telepathy isn't all that great.

Yeah, but four people voted for you ONLY due to telepathy. Or three, I forget which number.

And I'm fairly sure if there had been no telepathy, at least one or two of them would have voted for me.

@sheenlantern and @godtriggerhulk literally said DS only won due to telepathy, which is something you said you weren't going to involve.

Don't mean to whine.

@freefa11:

You haven't seen Death Battle? o_O

You're lucky.

XD

So essentially Goku's training in increased gravity increases his stats by the increased gravity he trains under. For example when he trained in 10x gravity he became 10x as good in all his stats.

DBZ characters also train wearing weights; the 26,000 thing came from Goku at one point fighting/moving with 1,800 TONS on his limbs, which I then plugged into NASA's gravity formula.

And yes, technically those do cancel out but it also gives me the benefit of being like 'NASA made this up' whenever someone questions it.

'cuz you don't mess with NASA.

But that's an impressive analysis.

#applause

CS - namevoting and bias aside, it's like 9-8 in my favor.

#312 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@sondeatheater:

I mean we have no proof those are going at light speed. His comment about 'just a little light' is referring to the incredibly small size of the beam, as generally in DBZ bigger=better.

Have you already voted, BTW?

#313 Edited by NeonGameWave (7794 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku always has been light speed within DBZ, he was hypersonic during Dragon Ball, if you want proof then let me know.

#314 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku always has been light speed within DBZ, he was hypersonic during Dragon Ball, if you want proof then let me know.

'always'? Pretty sure he wasn't light speed before Frieza saga.

#315 Edited by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: He gives reasons for his calcs. And for the most part, they seem legit and don't contradict themselves unlike Kakarot88's original post. DBZ is a series that has many power increases. Toriyama didn't want to keep track of the character's power, so he let the reader use it.

Taking away KK x20 and using the original Death Battle gravity formula, Goku at SSJ3 should be minimally 5x the speed of light. Not bad. But if we use SSJ4 Goku, then he'd be around 50x the speed of light. So shortening the gravity formula Goku would still be FTL.

I don't necessarily agree with all the calcs, but for the most part, they hold up pretty well. I don't agree that Goku is 50,000x FTL, but that's just how he represented it.

You're joking right?

First of all he starts with the assumption that base stats scale linearly with power levels, which we all know is NOT true and even if it was true no one could prove it.

Second, you contradicted yourself. On one hand you claim that the calcs seem legit but then say you don't agree that Goku is 50,000x light speed. And if @thedarklordpandamonium can be wrong about one calculation why couldn't they all be wrong? On what basis could you believe any of the calcs?

Third, his calculations are wrong anyway because the multipliers are wrong: Goku can't use his Super Saiyan form and Kaio-ken together. The only time Goku ever used them simultaneously was in the Other World anime arc, which was FILLER. And then on top of this he used Kaio-ken 20x while Goku was Ssj4 even though he ADMITTED Goku had only ever used Ssj1 and Kaio-ken 2x, which vastly inflates the numbers.

Fourth, there's not a single scan or anime video that shows Goku even being light speed. The largest objects destroyed in the DB/Z/GT manga and anime are planets but Goku has the power of 100 supernovas?

#316 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari:

First: No? I make the assumption that base stats scale linearly with Super Saiyan multipliers. I only use power levels with Gravity Training, where I admitted 10x gravity>10x power level

Second: What do you mean, on what basis? You mean on the basis of the calcs themselves?

Your third point: Yes, but for the purposes of the CAV CS and I agreed that he could go Kaio-Ken x20 and SS4. I realize technically it is impossible, but we agreed on it.

Fourth: Ignoring the four examples of him being light speed, I see.

1) Toriyama said so; he is the only writer

2) Photons bouncing off of him is the only way to actually be invisible; molecules vibrating doesn't make sense

3) Cameras that could capture faster than light couldn't see him

4) Escaped paralyzing light by going faster than it

#317 Edited by NeonGameWave (7794 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@neongamewave said:

Goku always has been light speed within DBZ, he was hypersonic during Dragon Ball, if you want proof then let me know.

'always'? Pretty sure he wasn't light speed before Frieza saga.

Goku escaped Frieza`s light ball in an instant and moved so fast that no one could even see him, Kami couldn`t even see him when he fought Piccolo. He dodges lasers, bullets and became faster than lightning during the courses of Dragon Ball also he dodged Tien`s Solar Flare in time for snatching Roshi`s sunglasses, and making it back to the ring without Roshi hardly noticing the same one who could catch bullets as well as play rock, paper scissors with Krillin in roughly 1/10th of a second.

#318 Edited by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@godtriggerhulk:

Idc. I'm only counting votes with reasons behind them, making me one vote ahead of CS right now or tied. Can't remember the exact number, it's on my CPU and I'm on my phone.

If I wanted to win I would have just called out really biased DBZ fans, but instead I called out people who know what they're talking about.

@nighthunder:

If I didn't its probably because you included something other than just who you voted for.

First, I NEVER voted and I'm not going to.

Second, what you're doing is against the forum rules. You can't refuse to count votes because someone votes against you, or you think they're biased, or they don't give reasons that meet your pre-approved standards.

Third, I read exactly what you wrote and your calculations are bunk. That's it and that's all.

#319 Edited by ComicStooge (13100 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11 said:

@thedarklordpandamonium:

I've been thinking about this for a while. Ultimately I'm voting in your favor. I do think there were flaws. You included some things that you wound up concluding yourself were irrelevant, which is just a waste of time. Your layout of the argument and how you are applying certain multipliers for different points in Goku's continuity could be clearer. I also simply do not understand the 26,000+ speed "multiplier." From the equation you gave, it looks like I and g are the same, thus canceling and immediately reducing the equation to a simple ratio of Goku's lifting force compared to his own body weight. I don't see how that constitutes a multiplier, it's basically just a different way of expressing how strong he was at that moment. I also don't have "Death Battle" memorized, and don't remember what they said about the equation, or where it comes from, but I shouldn't have to have seen Death Battle at all; all the important information about the equation should be included in your post.

Still, even with all that, the numbers you gave still give Goku considerable superspeed, as well as very high durability and blasting power, and I do not recall ComicStooge really challenging your calcs. So he should be able to strike before Darkseid, and hit him with more than enough force to obliterate him, and even if DS gets the first shot, Goku should be able to tank it. CS did not, IMO, provide adequate proof of Darkseid's own speed; one scan described it as "unthinkable," which is basically just poetic license for "really fast." Since it isn't quantified, it's not useful. The other feat he actually attributed to Desaad, which means that it is Desaad's feat, not Darkseid's. I get that conventional wisdom holds Darkseid as physically superior to Desaad in every way, but conventional wisdom holds the same is true of Superman. If you're going to start arguing Desaad has high-level superspeed abilities, you can't just fall back on what everyone has always assumed about him, you have to re-evaluate the whole character, which wasn't done here. Also, I found his point about DS's soul irrelevant; he laid out himself the terms of winning, with KO and death on the list. Nowhere does he say "complete destruction of Darkseid's soul." So if DS gets KO'd, Goku wins. If DS's body is killed, Goku wins. I also think he was exaggerating how much of a threat DS's soul could be anyway.

Sorry if that's a bit overlong, but yeah, ultimately I feel the damage output you argued for Goku exceeds what CS gave for Darkseid's durability by far too much, and you argued better for his speed, even without the 26,000 multiplier.

BTW, I wouldn't worry much about DS's telepathy. Post-crisis, he really didn't have it. At no point does he ever read, invade, or manipulate anyone's mind completely under his own power. There's even an exchange he has with Vermin Vunderbar at one point, that heavily implies he cannot even read minds. Scott Free's statement doesn't prove anything, it just shows he thinks Darkseid can do it. The mind-linking done in Our Worlds at War was accomplished when everyone was already telepathically communicating via Martian Manhunter.
Pre-Crisis DS isn't much better. There is the one instance with Lonar, but every other instance of DS draining the ALE information from someone's mind is done with technology, not just on his own. Other than that, you've got the Great Darkness Saga, which takes place 1,000 years in the future, and after DS drained the power of Mordru, Timetrapper, a whole planet of mages, and a bunch of powerful artifacts.
So yeah, vanilla Darkseid, in his entire continuity, basically has one feat of mental assault, and it's against a c-list character like Lonar. Color me unimpressed. Like I said, I wouldn't worry about DS's telepathy.
One other thing, though I tried not to let this influence me too much, but some CS's arguments weren't really valid. There is no evidence that Darkseid's attack on the AM were his Omega Beams, for example, and the degree to which AM was weakened was heavily glossed over (he could barely take out Kal-L at that point). Darkseid did not kill Doomsday, he just knocked him down and buried him in rubble. The scan with Lobo is non-canon. There are a couple of others, but since they mostly didn't get heavy use, I don't feel like dwelling on it. This is why it is difficult to argue with certain comic character though; they have hundreds of appearances scattered all over the place, many of which people haven't actually read, plus all the retcons and revisions, and keeping an accurate chronology of what the character did and when is extremely tricky.

I do not recall ComicStooge really challenging your calcs

I did, by pointing out how irrelevant it was to use science in a debate, if a character didn't have the feats to back it up. They pretty much debunk themselves in their own ridiculousness.

and even if DS gets the first shot, Goku should be able to tank it

You mean tank the Omega Beams which could send him a few thousand years in the future as a stone statue? How would he tank that?

and hit him with more than enough force to obliterate him

Using what? His Dragon Fist which we didn't see any feats from? Or one of his ki blasts, which can supposedly blow up a planet according what a bunch of characters say? (Which is about as useful in a debate as me using the scan of Darkseid calling himself omnipotent.)

I never tried to argue Darkseid's speed was greater then Goku's, just that Darkseid could intercept Goku's attacks. And anyway, how many speed feats in DBZ are really quantified anyway?

I mean to offence to Panda when I say this at all, but most of his argument consisted of "I'm going to ignore all the actual feats of a character and I'll just make up me own". My argument mightn't have been perfect and I wasn't aware some of my scans weren't canon but as you said, Darkeid's history is hard to keep track of.

#320 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari:

>claims my calculations are false

>provides no evidence; what arguments he has are invalid or were already addressed

@comicstooge:

Quantified speed feats? Very few. There are times when Toriyama is like 'wait these guys are supposed to be fast' and hurriedly inserts some speed feats, such as SS1 being FTL on multiple occasions, but other than that basically nothing.

I mean, I used feats as the basis for all of my calculations, and then used canonical formulas with the backing of Toriyama, who has only given out explicit multipliers so that he doesn't have to keep re-establishing how powerful the characters are every time they get a power increase (which is realistically every episode).

I really don't understand what your issue is with this. If you want I can just drop the idea that GT ever existed, since that was basically the only place you drew 'feats' for Goku from; Goku would still prolly win, being 5,000 times FTL not instead of 50,000. And I'd have to re-do his Super Dragon Fist power level, but that would be about it.

#321 Posted by ComicStooge (13100 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

Quantified speed feats? Very few. There are times when Toriyama is like 'wait these guys are supposed to be fast' and hurriedly inserts some speed feats, such as SS1 being FTL on multiple occasions, but other than that basically nothing.

I mean, I used feats as the basis for all of my calculations, and then used canonical formulas with the backing of Toriyama, who has only given out explicit multipliers so that he doesn't have to keep re-establishing how powerful the characters are every time they get a power increase (which is realistically every episode).

I really don't understand what your issue is with this. If you want I can just drop the idea that GT ever existed, since that was basically the only place you drew 'feats' for Goku from; Goku would still prolly win, being 5,000 times FTL not instead of 50,000. And I'd have to re-do his Super Dragon Fist power level, but that would be about it.

I'm not even sure I've seen scans or evidence yet that Goku can go FTL at all.

Thank you for being patient and respectful and all, sorry if I come off sounding like a jerk, but do you have scans or the like showing him going FTL?

#322 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

Well you never asked! D:

This is the first time you've brought that up; previously you were only talking about Goku's destructive output. You addressed the speed by pointing out that OBs were superluminal, then put up a scan where I was like 'sooo it's not THAT superluminal' and then you called for votes.

1) Toriyama said so; he is the only writer

Toriyama said this during an interview which I'm looking for right nao.

2) Photons bouncing off of him is the only way to actually be invisible; molecules vibrating doesn't make sense

He becomes invisible during the cell saga on multiple occasions and this is science. However he was also invisible during the WW tournament, so...e_e

3) Cameras that could capture faster than light couldn't see him

This is in an episode of the Cell Games saga, but I can't find it online. People have said it's dub-only, but they've also said it's both on kaizenshuu forums.

4) Escaped paralyzing light by going faster than it

Note that this isn't an attack he's dodging; the attack Frieza used is known as

which, while stupid, basically means that he throws a ball at you, and the light paralyzes you. Goku escaped it and people start climaxing over his speed.

5) Piccolo claims Raditz is faster than the speed of light

This is contested, because it's dub-only.

6) Vegito is confirmed to be faster than the speed of light

He was so fast it would have been impossible for anyone to pick him up except by reading his Ki signature

There are oodles more, but these are the main 6.

Also...Instant Transmission basically negates the need for fast fighting, as I posted in the opening that Goku has fought entire fights with Instant Transmission, such as his fight with Nuova Shenron.

#323 Posted by SheenLantern (6675 posts) - - Show Bio
#324 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern:

Your only justification was that Goku had no answer for DS's telepathy.

Other reasons for your vote?

#325 Edited by SheenLantern (6675 posts) - - Show Bio

Your only justification was that Goku had no answer for DS's telepathy.

Yes, in response to someone arguing the actual fight, not a CAV.

And I didn't post anything other than that because the last time I had a big debate in this thread I was asked to delete everything anyway. Saying "Darkseid instantly mindrapes, done" saves time and space.

#326 Posted by mjolnirson (1353 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkseid stomps epic.

Online
#327 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@mjolnirson:

We don't vote for who would win, but for who did the better debating.

@sheenlantern:

I just want to know a reason. If the mindrape is the reason, cool. If its something else, cool.

#328 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to get locked.

#329 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio
#330 Posted by Killemall (18598 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: The only person Darkseid has ever sent away as a stone statue would be Slo-bo,i also recall a mention of Slo-bo being unworthy of the name Lobo, thats why he wasnt given the name Kid-Lobo, which was a different character altogether.

That being said BFR should have technically worked for Darkseid (something i didnt even see OP allowed :p, my mistake)

#331 Posted by GodTriggerHulk (1998 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Telepathy was a reason behind my vote but it wasn't the sole factor. Remove all mentions of telepathy and comicstooge would still get my vote.

#332 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@godtriggerhulk said:

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Telepathy was a reason behind my vote but it wasn't the sole factor. Remove all mentions of telepathy and comicstooge would still get my vote.

But what are the other reasons?

(sorry if you've already said them)

Also, for some reason the debating is still going on.

#333 Posted by GodTriggerHulk (1998 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

There were several feats that put DS over the top. No-selling Lobo's punch was a big one. I also find calcs unconvincing.

#334 Edited by NeonGameWave (7794 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: Is the lightning thing hyperbole?

I don`t think so but some might see it as an expressive statement but I believe it to be literal due to Goku`s speed increase since his earlier training and Mr Popo is an acknowledged as well as wise individual so it makes the actual confirmation more truthful as well as valid.

#335 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan said:

@neongamewave: Is the lightning thing hyperbole?

I don`t think so but some might see it as an expressive statement but I believe it to be literal due to Goku`s speed increase since his earlier training and Mr Popo is an acknowledged as well as wise individual so it makes the actual confirmation more truthful as well as valid.

Still, we don't know whether or not he's talking about the leader bolt of lightning or the return stroke, which is a difference of a factor of 10.

@thedarklordpandamonium:

There were several feats that put DS over the top. No-selling Lobo's punch was a big one. I also find calcs unconvincing.

Why? I mean, I've provided several feats for Goku going FTL, and from there it's just doing what the creator of the series wanted us to do and applying canonical multipliers. I've also provided several feats for him resisting planet-busting bunches, so...?

#336 Edited by NeonGameWave (7794 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@neongamewave said:

@limpoyzloan said:

@neongamewave: Is the lightning thing hyperbole?

I don`t think so but some might see it as an expressive statement but I believe it to be literal due to Goku`s speed increase since his earlier training and Mr Popo is an acknowledged as well as wise individual so it makes the actual confirmation more truthful as well as valid.

Still, we don't know whether or not he's talking about the leader bolt of lightning or the return stroke, which is a difference of a factor of 10.

I`m more so referring to Goku actually being faster than lightning event that occurred when he trained under Mr Popo who in fact did confirm that Goku was moving faster than lightning itself.

#337 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

I`m more so referring to Goku actually being faster than lightning event that occurred with his training with Mr Popo who in fact did confirm that Goku was moving faster than lightning itself.

Ahhhh kay.

#338 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan said:

@neongamewave: Is the lightning thing hyperbole?

I don`t think so but some might see it as an expressive statement but I believe it to be literal due to Goku`s speed increase since his earlier training and Mr Popo is an acknowledged as well as wise individual so it makes the actual confirmation more truthful as well as valid.

"Faster than lightning" is one of the most used hyperbole in fiction, especially in martial arts. If you ever listen to Kung Fu Fighting, you'll realize that. It almost never been used literally from my experience with countless of novels and films. Mr. Popo is no different than martial art master, who often give off a lot of these.

Goku's speed increase does not always mean that he's faster than lightning. It could be from few Mach to Mach 20 (I'm making up here so you get the example). There are no quantitative data that indicate his speed anyway, which make it virtually impossible for fan-made calculation to reach a real conclusion.

#339 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

"Faster than lightning" is one of the most used hyperbole in fiction, especially in martial arts. If you ever listen to Kung Fu Fighting, you'll realize that. It almost never been used literally from my experience with countless of novels and films. Mr. Popo is no different than martial art master, who often give off a lot of these.

Goku's speed increase does not always mean that he's faster than lightning. It could be from few Mach to Mach 20 (I'm making up here so you get the example). There are no quantitative data that indicate his speed anyway, which make it virtually impossible for fan-made calculation to reach a real conclusion.

Truetrue.

How do you feel about my list of Goku SS1 FTL feats?

#340 Posted by ComicStooge (13100 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, this debate's gone for too long and I've lost interest.

Vote for whoever and lets end it.

#341 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, this debate's gone for too long and I've lost interest.

Vote for whoever and lets end it.

I have no idea what the score is

But I won by 1 point

But due to the ridiculous amounts of bullsh*t and debating after voting started going on, shall we just call it a tie?

#342 Edited by ComicStooge (13100 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

Honestly, this debate's gone for too long and I've lost interest.

Vote for whoever and lets end it.

I have no idea what the score is

But I won by 1 point

But due to the ridiculous amounts of bullsh*t and debating after voting started going on, shall we just call it a tie?

Nah, if you get one more vote then me, that makes it your victory.

Good debate, dude.

#343 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#344 Posted by ComicStooge (13100 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn Can this get locked? It's over anyway.