CAV: Darkseid (ComicStooge) vs Goku (TheDarkLordPandamonium)

Speed of light is Mach 880,000, not 90,000.

@angryhulks: .....yup. You're right.

Don't I look foolish?

@thedarklordpandamonium:

I appreciate your calculation effort, but regardless, there are absolutely no ways to reach the real conclusion due to lack of real world units that can be factor into mathematical formula.

Goku's speed and strength could be any number since everything was blinded and left to the reader's speculation.

Comics work differently, they tend to make scientific connection and sometimes even give a real world units right away. And science fiction-oriented nature of comics make it easier to speculate or calculate, when actually feats are already enough for most debate.

That's why I have to give the vote to Comicstooge. (Don't count me in because I'm already in the count)

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Where was @uberhikari incredibly biased? I liked your debating style but you're still throwing calcs out there, long after voting opened and shaking down users for a senior thesis on why they didn't vote for you. And yet all that curiousity on the reason behind a vote seems to dissapear when someone votes or re-votes for you.

And now you're throwing out votes? That is simply beyond the pale.

@comicstooge

tdlp , calm down its 1 vote , you should still count it

@thedarklordpandamonium: Yeah, the SSj2 multiplier was a typo. It's 1 in the AM and I'm sleepy.

That calc was posted originally.

Perhaps if he had read, he would have known that.

And I have questioned everyone who voted for me, BTW, through PM.

CS can count his vote, but I won't. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

@thedarklordpandamonium: you forgot to question me bro

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Allright since you questioned everyone through PM it's cool. Are we going to have two seperate votes? That could get akward

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Shoudln't it be whoever gets to the limit first?

@godtriggerhulk:

Idc. I'm only counting votes with reasons behind them, making me one vote ahead of CS right now or tied. Can't remember the exact number, it's on my CPU and I'm on my phone.

If I wanted to win I would have just called out really biased DBZ fans, but instead I called out people who know what they're talking about.

@nighthunder:

If I didn't its probably because you included something other than just who you voted for.

@wardemon32:

We haven't established a limit XD I'll probably end it in a day tho.

Angry hulk:

Doesn't make any sense because Toriyama stated Goku was FTL after freezer saga and I'm just applying direct statements by the author in the 80000 calc, though.

That didn't say that he can move and react faster than light.

Even official source say that Thor is faster than light.

@angryhulks:

You know the context, right?

After making a wish, Dragonballs fly off at FTL speeds. However after freezer saga Toriyama was like 'I have no idea what to do' because he had planned for the manga ending, since Goku could now catch the Dragonballs before he zoomed off. This falls in line with calculations.

Also, DBZ has one writer and one official source. Thor has dozens of writers.

It doesn't matter if Thor has dozens of writers, it's consistent that Thor is a slowpoke no matter who's writing him. They still have to follows the original protocol, unless the writer decide to develop the character further (thus the explanation of why some character are more powerful/weaker than in the past).

However, official Marvel site stated that Thor is faster than light, and I bet that's not the writer who's typing that.

And there are only one official source for any Marvel characters, and that's Marvel as a company itself.

@angryhulks:

Well there you have it.

Toriyama IS the one typing those words that Goku is FTL, because well it's his damn interview. He also oversees all the handbooks, otherwise I wouldn't use them as sources.

Still, he didn't say if Goku is faster than light in term of traveling speed, reaction, or combating movements. Graphic novel writers generally uses travel speed to describe the character and it's possible that this pattern would apply to Goku's case as well.

There are many occasion where even a single writer contradicts themselves, a guy writing Irredeemable for example, Plutonian has countless of power fluctuation throughout the series.

And Goku never show any real faster than light reaction time at all, though some people interpret that he did but there are no dialogue anywhere in the panel that directly say he's faster than light. Again, sometimes feats trump the writer's statement.

@angryhulks:

No?

Because Toriyama uses travel time as a plot device. I stated this in my opening.

He said that Goku was now fast enough to catch the FTl dragon balls. When Goku does this he doesn't chase them, he sticks up his hand and catches them. In travel time Goku has been anywhere from instant to Mach 3 to thousands of times the speed of light depending on the plot, something I brought up in my opening.

So he wasn't talking about travel speed and said Goku was FTL, which is supported by stated multipliers and feats.

Also, Goku has fought so fast he's become invisible to cameras 100,000 times better than the human eye, something I've already brought up. You have to be going the speed of light to be invisible to the regular human eye. That's a feat.

Wrong science here.

Human have only millisecond perception speed, anything above Mach 10 will be invisible to human unless they're far away from the moving object enough.

Superman usually don't move faster than few Mach when he's holding back, yet when he's using that speed, he's invisible to normal human eyes. They didn't notice any changes at all.

And of course, human can see thing moving faster than they can normally see if they're far away enough. Like a space shuttle entering atmosphere, if something move that fast whiz past you at close distance, you can't see it. But if a space shuttle is moving at the same speed hundreds of kilometer away, you can see it moving.

I can offer you an experiment, load the rifle with tracer round. You stand in perpendicular to your friend firing the rifle, and let him shoot. You won't see the bullet moving past you at all even at night, but you can see it moving once it went further away from you. Rifle bullets are only Mach 3, and yet you can't react to it from normal "combat" distance.

No you don't, the human eye can barely catch a glimpse of a bullet shot across a room, and a bullet is nowhere near Lightspeed. It's stated by others that the hand is faster than the eye.

Yeah, the Guinness World's Record fastest hand clapper can clap his hand faster than I can see.

@trebean:

Incorrect.

That's if the object in question moves PAST your field of vision.

There's an article on it if you'd like me to pull it up by some very reputable physicists.

@angryhulks:

See above

Article in question should be in my opening

Show me the article here, too much pages to follow. I want to see if you read the context correctly.

As I just said, human have millisecond reaction time. Anything that can move at a certain distance in less than few milliseconds is invisible to human's eye.

I vote for @comicstooge as he didnt just pull numbers out of his ass to make his character seem stronger and had an overall stronger argument.

You counted oozaru when he isnt in the form.....really bro you suck.

@zr0c00l:

Oozaru is a permanent increase. Goku drank the water to become stronger and unlock his power, and he drank it for the king piccolo fight, when he wasn't a giant ape.

That was all in the opening.

@angryhulks:

God dammit man

In the morning, I can only remember it from death battle erred which is a huge blog that isn't going to load on my phone.

Take your time then.

Maybe when the summer is over, I can just geek out with the optical physics department so I can learn a thing or two.

@angryhulks:

Yeah, it is pretty esoteric stuff. I'm doing a senior thesis (even though I'm not a senior in college and the INTEL doesn't need one fml) which includes light among other things.

@thedarklordpandamonium: are you freaking high....... Oozaru is not a permanent increase..... If it was why the hell would people get stronger by turning oozaru? Why was goku stronger in oozaru while destroying pilafs castle than he was in humanoid form? He had already turned oozaru to kill grandpa gohan...unintentionally. Why would vegeta transform if there was no benefit........ I doubt it was his first time why was gohan stronger in oozaru during his second transformation then he was as a human after the first..... Come on son get it right. There were other mistakes in your arguments too but as this isnt my argument ill let you save face. But my vote has been cast and it isnt for yoy

@zr0c00l:

The sacred water unlocks the power of an oozaru within you. It multiples goku's stars by 10 and he didn't have to be a great ape to do it.

You're thinking of actually turning INTO a great ape.

Please, do point out the flaws.

This isn't about who win by having more nonsensical people like you vote for them, if it was I would have called out a dozen DBZ fans and won right off the bat.

@thedarklordpandamonium: even if that were true which it is definitely not.... Its still not a multiplier as it would be his base now and then affected by the ss multipliers it isnt a transformation it was a permanent boost it doesnt get added every time youre on crack...... And biased hardly, i just dont agree with you. My vote counts and is for cs.

@zr0c00l:

Firstly, it is true. So....yeah?

Second, did you read my opening?

Clearly not, because I only used it on the bullet dodging feat, because that was before the sacred water. I didn't use it on anything after the sacred water.

Good job, you just thoroughly embarrassed yourself.

@thedarklordpandamonium: lol if you say so.

@thedarklordpandamonium: lol if you say so.

@angryhulks:

SCIENCE ARTICLE PROOF:
“How fast would an object have to move to be invisible to the naked eye?

Could Dash from “The Incredibles” really run so fast that we could not see him?

The short answer is yes, Dash could run fast enough to be invisible. Exactly how fast he would have to run depends on many factors. For an object to be visible, light particles (photons) must bounce off the object and into your eye. There must be enough light that specialized neurons in the eye—the rod and cone cells that form the photosensitive pixels of the retina—are activated to a level that triggers awareness. If Dash zipped through your field of view so quickly that too little light from him reached your retina, you would not see him. What is the minimum amount of light required? In a classic experiment, people in complete darkness were exposed to flashes of light. Only the rod photoreceptors were sensitive enough to detect the light intensities used in this experiment. At the minimum flash brightness required to trigger visual awareness, onlya handful of rods each absorbed just one photon. The implication is striking: single cells, capturing single particles of light, can trigger perception. However, at best, the rods can provide only a low-resolution image. To see and recognize Dash requires cone photoreceptors. Cones allow high-resolution color vision in brighter light. Unlike rods, individual cones must absorb many photons to generate a sizeable response.

And since each cone contributes a single pixel to the final image, many cones are required to “draw” Dash on the retina. If Dash were moving fast, photons bouncing off him would be scattered across many cones, and each of these cones might be insufficiently activated, so Dash would be invisible.

If that doesn't make any sense to you...

Goku during the Cell Saga was INVISIBLE to cameras and people who were 100,000 times the human eye while inside their field of vision.

In order for him to be invisible, photons would have had to not be able to bounce off of him and enter your eye, because he was moving faster than the speed of light.

However, if something moves PAST your field of vision, it's highly possible that your cones could just not perceive it due to not having enough time for the photons to bounce off of it. But since Goku WAS inside their field of vision, he would have HAD to be invisible.

If the record holder for clapping clapped his hands, you would still see an image of each of his hands at the edge of his clapping arc. If you move your hand really quickly, it's a blur, but you can still see it. But Goku completely disappeared.

The cameras and aliens who were 100,000 times the human eye couldn't see him at the edges of a quite large arena. Say anything going Mach 20 or higher would have been invisible to the naked eye, multiply that by 100,000 and you get Mach 2,000,000, more than 2 times the speed of light. This still fits into the 80,000 calc.

@comicstooge:

I have no idea what the 'official vote' is, but

It's 8-8 tied if you only count people who didn't just namevote (and i called out/pm'd everyone who namevoted) or who I know for a fact are biased towards me/DBZ. That goes both ways.

Isn't that uh

Cheating?

It would be

If CS had replied to my PM asking when he wanted to stop voting

Also in a count of non namevotes or people biased towards DBZ or me or against DBZ or me, we are still tied, so I would say that should be to 10...

I'm sorry, I forgot about you

Reasons for voting? (=

also welcome to the vine!

Imma shank you unless you vote with reasons

That's what I was thinking. It should only be about 7 or 11

god dammit i forgot to get a free smoothie from 7/11 on 7/11

My life = #over

@nighthunder:

Just kidding you didn't provide reasons for your vote

essssplain

@trebean:

Same for you, didn't even see you

However, this notion is heavily contradicted in fiction. Many sub-light characters including Superman still appear invisible to human eyes even though the observers are quite far away from him.

While light experiment are true, there are still other factor to consider. Human's reflex response to visual stimuli is 18-300 millisecond. The camera is 100,000 times faster, let say most human have 150 millisecond reaction time, then the camera can see event happening in 0.0015 millisecond, that's 1.5 microsecond, and we know to observe something traveling at the speed of light required femto photography, this require few nanosecond to picosecond of precision to see light moving. That alien camera is far thousands of times slower than what it takes to see something moving at light speed.

And by the way, human can process about 12 images per second, the alien's camera can process 1.2 million images per second. But surprise, the fastest camera our real world have can process an astonishing trillion images per second! That camera is in MIT by the way. We can see photon wave moving with that camera, but the wave still move relatively fast. Alien's camera is 833,333 slower than MIT's camera, so it can't observe light moving. That's pretty good enough to infer that Goku can't react faster than light, let alone close to light speed.

I'm in hurry typing this, so expect that my wording can be poorly done, but you can discuss it and I'll break it down.

But Superman doesn't fight and become invisible, he's just invisible when he zips past people. I already addressed this.

And @limpoyzloan: wasn't the camera in the Cell Saga supposed to be fast enough to 'see a solar flare'? Or am I just high? You remember the one I'm talking about, right? The one that was 100,000 times better at seeing than Tien?

Actually, if I recall in the anime the cameraman explicitly said the camera was faster than light, but not fast enough to catch them. Indeed, Goku was fast enough to escape the Imprisonment Light Ball from Frieza in the manga at SS1, which used light that paralyzed, and I believe Piccolo stated that Goku managed to escape from the light before it paralyzed him, i.e. faster than light.

Of course this is all more or less irrelevant, since Toriyama blatantly stated that at SS1 Goku was ftl so could catch the ftl Dragonballs. Maybe not exactly like that, but you get the point. It's a feat. He can catch FTL objects by reacting and putting his hand up, i.e. he's FTL.

I would have posted tons of things like this if CS had done more than compare my calcs to GT, buut he didn't.

@thedarklordpandamonium: Oh and to answer what you asked me a few pages back, I'm going with @comicstooge: simply because I think he put up the better case, Goku as no defense against telepathy as far as I know and Babahdi did not use telepathy it was magical possesiong that only works on beings with un-pure hearts. Not to I don't see Goku resisting getting manipulated by DS OB if he decides to go that rout. Also no offense but I take actual feats over fan made calculation any day of the week. Nonetheless it was a fine debate and was certinly imformative.

>_<

Freaking Comicstooge told me he'd only offer to debate me with Goku when he found a character w/o telepathy, and then four people vote for him because of DS's telepathy.

@thedarklordpandamonium: Well Im voting for because most of rour calcs didn't have contradictions plus you freaking debating against darkside

Alright, so my score is 8-8 currently.