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#201 Posted by Mercy_ (92764 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist: Seriously, knock it off.

@pope052 said:

@mercy_: I'm sorry isn't trolling, spamming against the rules? I'm not the guilty one out of this as he forced me into it in the first place.

Yes, and he was addressed in my previous post for both swearing and the trolling.

That does not magically mean that you didn't break the rules with the f-bombs. You did. Nobody forced you to break the rules and swear, that was of your own volition.

Moderator
#202 Posted by Pope052 (3314 posts) - - Show Bio

@mercy_: I didn't say anyone forced me to curse, I said he forced me back into this thread by claiming he was me. I'm aware I broke the rules, but i'm not sorry for it as he irritated the hell out of me.

Online
#203 Posted by Mercy_ (92764 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I misunderstood you then, my apologies.

Yeah, I never disagreed with your right to come into the thread and defend yourself or anything like that, my issue was just with the f-bombs.

In the future, sometimes it's better to just flag and move on, or PM the mods when something like that happens, then allow yourself to lose your temper, yeah?

Moderator
#204 Edited by Pope052 (3314 posts) - - Show Bio

@mercy_: Whatever, I mention Vance Astro and nothing happened, most time I mention the mods they rarely come into action. Hence why I "defend" myself as you put it,

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#206 Edited by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (10173 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote for the Panda as well, all those calcs lol

#207 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk said:

I'll vote for the Panda as well, all those calcs lol

What on earth is with the tiny little triangle in your sig? o_O

also REPLY TO THE TOURNAMENT PM!

14-12, CS in the lead

#208 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio
#209 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7035 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't decide, need to think this over for a bit lol.

#210 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

With Limpy's vote, the tables turn!

The score is now 13-13!

THE TABLES ARE TIED!

:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

#211 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

@mercy_: What did I do?

...no seriously, I'm innocent.

One: I never posted in this thread claiming to be @pope051.

Two: I never even spoke to him, up until he spoke to me using foul language. He was extremely rude to me, despite the fact that I never said a word to him.

Three: He claims that "I forced him back into this thread"

I didn't say anyone forced me to curse, I said he forced me back into this thread by claiming he was me. I'm aware I broke the rules, but i'm not sorry for it as he irritated the hell out of me.

Yet I never even said a word to him. He chose to come back to this thread on his own, while I was just minding my own business at a completely different place.

Four: I never ever claimed to be him. I claimed to be disguised as him (as an obvious joke), and that was even in a Private Message thread that didn't involve @pope051 at all. He made the assumption, which is completely false, and then spoke to me with profanity without any reason to. This is all his doing, not mine.

Sincerely,

#212 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Im sorry, I believe the Calcs should fit the Feats, and I just see no evidence here of that. I think the debate relied on the ignoring of feats altogether.

Going with @comicstooge and Darkseid on this.

#213 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

Im sorry, I believe the Calcs should fit the Feats, and I just see no evidence here of that. I think the debate relied on the ignoring of feats altogether.

Going with @comicstooge and Darkseid on this.

14-13 with your vote

#214 Posted by ComicStooge (13087 posts) - - Show Bio

Hot damn. O_o

#215 Edited by Mercy_ (92764 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist: Look, I think it clearly started out as a joke. It wasn't interpreted that way and things escalated from there.

You quoted profanity filled posts, which is tantamount to swearing yourself (the word is contained in your post).

When he told you to stop mentioning him (albeit in a profanity laced way) you responded by....a post full of his name. That does nothing to help the situation and, in fact, only escalates it.

I'll say the same thing to you that I tell plenty of others.

If you get into a situation like this and you feel that somebody is breaking the rules, PM the mods/flag the post and stop responding.

Moderator
#216 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (25164 posts) - - Show Bio
#217 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#218 Edited by Mauluigi (3 posts) - - Show Bio
#219 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (25164 posts) - - Show Bio
#220 Posted by ComicStooge (13087 posts) - - Show Bio

15-14.

I can practically smell the closeness.

#221 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011:

What? If you knew DBZ you would prolly be voting for me. No offense.

#222 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (25164 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: I read most of the manga and all of the anime and even played some of the games.....I'm very well versed on DBZ.

#223 Edited by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio
#224 Posted by SheenLantern (6667 posts) - - Show Bio

When does the voting end..?

@dccomicsrule2011:

What? If you knew DBZ you would prolly be voting for me. No offense.

You see? This, this is what people hate about DBZ fans.

They always jump to Goku winning regardless of anything.

#225 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio
#226 Posted by hart7668 (2294 posts) - - Show Bio
#227 Edited by hart7668 (2294 posts) - - Show Bio

I have just one question: If SSJ1 punches and above destroy planets, then why didn't this (start at 2:45):

...destroy Earth? I hardly think Cell was holding back.

#228 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@hart7668: I think that might be filler. I don't remember that in the manga.

#229 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern:

No, I'm jumping to Goku winning because I've done extensive calcs on him winning.

You think he would lose because I was unable to see CS's scans on Darkseid's telepathy and thus unable to respond.

Hart, that scene is prolly filler like Limp said.

#230 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#231 Edited by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: Dude, the point of a CAV is to discuss who was the better debater, not who would win. If you wanted to make that a separate voting process, then you should have included it.

#232 Edited by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (10173 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk said:

I'll vote for the Panda as well, all those calcs lol

What on earth is with the tiny little triangle in your sig? o_O

also REPLY TO THE TOURNAMENT PM!

14-12, CS in the lead

I have no idea about it lol, it just started to appear .-.

#233 Edited by SheenLantern (6667 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@sheenlantern:

No, I'm jumping to Goku winning because I've done extensive calcs on him winning.

You think he would lose because I was unable to see CS's scans on Darkseid's telepathy and thus unable to respond.

What does that have to do with 'knowing' Dragon Ball Z, then?

#234 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan: yeah I thought of that about a second after I posted that. Force of habit.

#235 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern:

What does me thinking Goku would win have to do with being a DBZ fan, hmm?

#236 Posted by SheenLantern (6667 posts) - - Show Bio
#237 Edited by hart7668 (2294 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: It is filler. Though, there is another image later in the manga where Cell punches the Earth, but that is neither here nor there at the moment. Good job on the debate though.

#238 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern:

You said 'this is what people hate about DBZ fans, they always think Goku would win regardless of anything'.

So I responded by saying that I thought Goku would win because of extensive calcs, and you said darkseid would win because of an argument I literally didn't see and shouldn't have existed due to my agreement with comicstooge. I still don't agree with this reason given that it was impossible for me to counter it and it was underhanded by CS.

Then you said 'what does that have to do with DBZ?'

So to answer that, most people who knew DBZ would, after reading the thread, agree that Goku would win due to my representation of him. However, people who didn't know would likely be immediately biased against my calcs.

So, given dccr gave no reason for his vote and knows DBZ, I was confused.

Score is something like 16-15 or 16-14.

#239 Edited by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally believe Goku would win. I can see Goku being faster than Darkseid and having enough striking power to hurt him.

#240 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#241 Edited by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: Dude, the point of a CAV is to discuss who was the better debater, not who would win. If you wanted to make that a separate voting process, then you should have included it.

If the point of CAV is to see who's the better debater then why is this even close? @thedarklordpandamonium didn't even debate he just had a bunch of made up calculations. Goku is 50,000x the speed of light? Goku has the DC of 100 super novas? Really?

#242 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: He gives reasons for his calcs. And for the most part, they seem legit and don't contradict themselves unlike Kakarot88's original post. DBZ is a series that has many power increases. Toriyama didn't want to keep track of the character's power, so he let the reader use it.

Taking away KK x20 and using the original Death Battle gravity formula, Goku at SSJ3 should be minimally 5x the speed of light. Not bad. But if we use SSJ4 Goku, then he'd be around 50x the speed of light. So shortening the gravity formula Goku would still be FTL.

I don't necessarily agree with all the calcs, but for the most part, they hold up pretty well. I don't agree that Goku is 50,000x FTL, but that's just how he represented it.

#243 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan:

We know for a fact that SS1 post namek was FTL due to the Dragonball Problem interview.

So minimally SS3 is 8 times the speed of light.

Then since we know that base Goku was as powerful as SS1 Goku namek by the end of DBZ we can multiply that by 50 to get 400. Times 10 equals 4,000 x20 equals 80,000 times the speed of light.

Not calculations at all.

#244 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio
#245 Edited by hart7668 (2294 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: Well, I preferred comic stooge's arguments drawn from on-panel feats vs having a buttload of calculations that didn't quite match the on-panel feat. I applaud your attempt (better than most) but putting real world numbers to a series that, in Toriyama's own words, doesn't match the real world seems like a double standard. Not your fault, but, still.

For instance, you quote Toriyama on his not using to-scale dimensions for his settings, but then immediately scale the size of Goku to giant-piccolo for his strength. I understand you later say the feat is pointless, but the method remains the same.

Speaking of, you make clear distinction between ki and pure strength (which Darkseid used in all his striking feats) when measuring damage dealing and tanking. Which leads me to believe that Goku can only tank planet-destroying ki attacks, not pure physical ones. Or Omega Beam related attacks.

But my biggest gripe about this entire thing (or anyone's DBZ argument, really) is the missing, connecting argument explaining how the multipliers actually affects the speed/strength/ and such. Where does it say or suggest in anything that, for example, the Super Saiyan 50x multiplier increases the users speed by 50, so that whatever his max speed, combat or otherwise, is all of a sudden 50 times faster? No where. Sure, ki may increase by a factor of 50 (even though further events in the manga suggest otherwise, but oh well), but there are instances where ki increases, but speed does not increase as proportionally, if at all.

The speed of light in Machs is around 90,000. I checked. Re-entry speeds (7 miles/second?) starts at Mach 25. Frieza's attacks, ki or otherwise, could've been a very respectable Mach 100. SSJ1 Goku could've have gone Mach 200, considering how much faster than Frieza he was. Subsequent power ups would then suggest that, around the Buu Saga, SSJ2 Goku ( a 3x multiplier on the SSJ1 form) could fight at Mach 800 (a big leap counting for the time spent training in the Other World). SSJ3 Goku would then (a 4x multiplier) be Mach 3200 with SSJ4 Goku being Mach 32,000. (Mach 500 is apparently all the swiftness of Heru can grant Black Adam to run at, so these numbers are quite respectable).

The whole crux of this? Nothing I just previously typed can be refuted using the actual manga. There is no where that suggests my numbers are any more correct or incorrect than yours.

That's the tricky business of trying to compare DBZ to other manga/comics that actually have real-world numbers and comparisons on-page. If you wanted me to agree that there simply is no winner between Goku and Darkseid or other such matchups, so be it. In fact, that would be my first reaction anyways.

But, as I said before: Good job. You were MUCH more convincing than anything I've seen before.

#246 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: Dragonball Problem interview? I didn't see that, can you give me a link?

That's not actually what it's called lol

It's somewhere in the comments section of Death Battle Erred

Basically it's Toriyama getting interviewed right after Namek and him being like 'the series was supposed to end because the super saiyanja (it was spelled something like that, can't remember) could finally go faster than light to catch the dragonballs'. Not the exact wording, but close enough.

Which makes sense if you consider 715 m/s is squared with Tao Training then multiplied by ten for kirin tower and another 10 for the gravity training and finally the x2 or x5 or whatever it was before they had mastered Super Saiyan. I can dig up the calc if you'd like.

Basically all it means is that SS1 is confirmed FTL after Namek.

2x FTL at SS2

8x FTL at SS3

then due to Supreme Kai, Trunks, Z-Sword, etc we know that base goku = ss1 goku at the end of DBZ

400x FTL at SS3

4,000x FTL at SS4

80,000x FTL at SS4 Kaio-Ken x20

Soooo yeah I lowballed it by quite a bit.

@uberhikari:

Thank you for showing that you are incredibly biased, it means that I'm not going to consider your vote! (=

And if I did, I'd also callout some 50-odd DBZ fanboys who are just as biased as you and then win the CAV effortlessly.

#247 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

How is this not over? What number are you guys planning on going to?

#248 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio
#249 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
@hart7668 said:

@thedarklordpandamonium: Well, I preferred comic stooge's arguments drawn from on-panel feats vs having a buttload of calculations that didn't quite match the on-panel feat. I applaud your attempt (better than most) but putting real world numbers to a series that, in Toriyama's own words, doesn't match the real world seems like a double standard. Not your fault, but, still.

For instance, you quote Toriyama on his not using to-scale dimensions for his settings, but then immediately scale the size of Goku to giant-piccolo for his strength. I understand you later say the feat is pointless, but the method remains the same.

When...?

Speaking of, you make clear distinction between ki and pure strength (which Darkseid used in all his striking feats) when measuring damage dealing and tanking. Which leads me to believe that Goku can only tank planet-destroying ki attacks, not pure physical ones. Or Omega Beam related attacks.

Doesn't look like you read my opening, mate. Might want to do that.

But my biggest gripe about this entire thing (or anyone's DBZ argument, really) is the missing, connecting argument explaining how the multipliers actually affects the speed/strength/ and such. Where does it say or suggest in anything that, for example, the Super Saiyan 50x multiplier increases the users speed by 50, so that whatever his max speed, combat or otherwise, is all of a sudden 50 times faster? No where. Sure, ki may increase by a factor of 50 (even though further events in the manga suggest otherwise, but oh well), but there are instances where ki increases, but speed does not increase as proportionally, if at all.

In every single DBZ handbook? By Akira Toriyama? In all of Goku's training (Tao Training, Sacred Water training, Gravity training, etc) By fighting factors? Goku goes from not being able to see his opponent to his opponent not being able to see him?

The speed of light in Machs is around 90,000. I checked. Re-entry speeds (7 miles/second?) starts at Mach 25. Frieza's attacks, ki or otherwise, could've been a very respectable Mach 100. SSJ1 Goku could've have gone Mach 200, considering how much faster than Frieza he was. Subsequent power ups would then suggest that, around the Buu Saga, SSJ2 Goku ( a 3x multiplier on the SSJ1 form) could fight at Mach 800 (a big leap counting for the time spent training in the Other World). SSJ3 Goku would then (a 4x multiplier) be Mach 3200 with SSJ4 Goku being Mach 32,000. (Mach 500 is apparently all the swiftness of Heru can grant Black Adam to run at, so these numbers are quite respectable).

SSJ2 Goku is a 2x multiplier. Either that was a typo or you have no idea what you're talking about, but it's probably a typo.

The whole crux of this? Nothing I just previously typed can be refuted using the actual manga. There is no where that suggests my numbers are any more correct or incorrect than yours.

True, but it can be refuted by Toriyama stating that the Dragonballs were FTL and that the series was supposed to end after Freezer saga because Goku could now catch them.

That's the tricky business of trying to compare DBZ to other manga/comics that actually have real-world numbers and comparisons on-page. If you wanted me to agree that there simply is no winner between Goku and Darkseid or other such matchups, so be it. In fact, that would be my first reaction anyways.

Alright, so then you don't vote for CS?

But, as I said before: Good job. You were MUCH more convincing than anything I've seen before.

#250 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

How is this not over? What number are you guys planning on going to?

It's not over because I'm gaining votes faster than CS is at this point.

In fact I'm fairly sure we're tied.

I asked CS, but he's on Australian time so it'll be a looong time before he replies.

@limpoyzloan:

Urgh...I can find the link if you'd like, but it'll take me some 12 hours since hotel internet is awful and the blog doesn't use spoilers.

Quick google search would work, though. 'dragonballs faster than light' maybe.