This topic is locked from further discussion.

#51 Posted by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (10045 posts) - - Show Bio
#52 Edited by ComicStooge (12766 posts) - - Show Bio

Now, to continue on with Darkseid's abilities, I'm going to start on the ones that can counter Goku's and/or the abilities Goku may not have a counter for.

Darkseid has some telepathic abilities, he can telepathically steal information from targets, create mental links etc:

Furthermore, Sleez, a servant of Darkseid's before getting kicked off Apokolips, was a telepath so powerful he could control Big Barda and Superman (although Clark was resisting, if only slightly.):

Yet his telepathy is below that of Darkseid's:

Even if Darkseid can't attack his mind (he hasn't shown that he can), he could just as easily telepathically force Goku to stand still, giving him more than enough to hit him with the Omega Beams.

Speaking of the Omega Beams, did you know they don't just incinerate?

Darkseid can BFR remove opponents either to different locations or through time and transmute them, as he did against Slo-Bo:

His transmutation against Cyborg Superman:

Another example of his time manipulation:

Basically, one hit from the OBs and it's over.

Darkseid even has multiple ways of teleporting himself:

Using his Omega Beams:

And he can open Boom Tubes with his eyes and spawn a Mother Box to him with ease:

Hypothetically, what's to stop him from opening Boom Tubes in front of Goku's blasts, reverting them completely away?

Darkseid also has a third, unspecified method of teleportation. All we know is that it's not a Boom Tube and it's too fast for Superman to see, yet he can measure the time between nanoseconds:

Also, Darkseid can spawn Avatars. These avatars can be from anything as simple as Darkseid's head (which is still capable of firing OBs) to the guy's full body. Albeit, a weaker version of it.

Darkseid can even spawn Shadow demons, capable of overwhelming Superman! These demons can be spawned out of the ground and can come in massive forces (possibly hundreds or more, as shown in the Firestorm scans):

So, Darkseid doesn't even need to be present at the battle to defeat Goku. He can send avatars and shadow demons to do the job for him, or to wear Goku down (his stamina is lessened the higher the Super Saiyan transformation, right?).

#53 Posted by ComicStooge (12766 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

This will all be cleared up once my argument actually gets scans in the morning (which by the way how did you manage to quote me with all the formatting intact and everything?)

But for now, literally as was said in one of the first few paragraphs of my opening, Toriyama wanted it to be like this. DBZ is a manga with a LOT of power increases; hell that's the only superpower the protagonists have.

As a result us the fans were supplied with official formulas to calculate their stats off of in the form of the handbooks, which are sort of like an encyclopedia for all the crap that goes on in the manga.

Also I'd be fine with that considering goku's punch at ss4 could destroy something that size (square cube law and other stuff, he can destroy something ten times the size of Jupiter as shown above and that would be 90 earths tall)

Alright dude, I shall await your scans and/or handbook entries.

Though, I'm probably not gonna be able to get back to you for about a week, because school starts tomorrow for me.

So yeah, my response might take a little while. It won't be anymore then a week, though.

#54 Edited by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

So I'm looking at one of the messages and I see one of the calculations are way off. Can I address it now or do I have to wait until it's voting time?

#55 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#56 Posted by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (10045 posts) - - Show Bio
#57 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Your school is starting pretty early O.O or are you taking summer classes, and then it starts late O.o

#58 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

Now, to continue on with Darkseid's abilities, I'm going to start on the ones that can counter Goku's and/or the abilities Goku may not have a counter for.

Darkseid has some telepathic abilities, he can telepathically steal information from targets, create mental links etc:

Even if Darkseid can't attack his mind (he hasn't shown that he can), he could just as easily telepathically force Goku to stand still, giving him more than enough to hit him with the Omega Beams.

Impressive -yet users of telepathy and magic in DBZ, such as Babidi, haven't been able to control Vegeta, whose fighting spirit is much weaker than Goku's. In the DBZ universe, telepathy is based entirely around fighting spirit, and Goku's is unparalleled. Indeed, Superman resisted Sleez's telepathy just off of moral fiber, and even if Darkseid's telepathy is stronger, Goku's fighting spirit has always been unparalleled, to the point that his 'moral fiber', so to speak, is so much that he literally has not a single dark thought in his heart (evidenced by the Devilmite Beam and Maijin curse failing).

Speaking of the Omega Beams, did you know they don't just incinerate?

Darkseid can BFR remove opponents either to different locations or through time and transmute them, as he did against Slo-Bo:

His transmutation against Cyborg Superman:

Another example of his time manipulation:

Basically, one hit from the OBs and it's over.

Well it's a good thing they aren't going to get a chance to hit me, isn't it? If the Flash has dodged the OBs I fail to see why Goku can't. You've got nothing that could show Darkseid's even close to fighting at Goku's speed, not to mention with Instant Transmission Goku could just teleport behind Darkseid and have the OBs come back at Darkseid (is that a thing? I feel like it isn't). If anything, I should be asking you how Darkseid is going to withstand something that hits with the force of a hundred supernovas!

Darkseid even has multiple ways of teleporting himself:

Well damn, it's almost like Goku hasn't fought entire fights with Instant Transmission!

Hypothetically, what's to stop him from opening Boom Tubes in front of Goku's blasts, reverting them completely away?

So you're telling me that when the fight starts, and Goku ITs behind Darkseid (which is completely silent, by the way, scans if you want) and punches him...

...Darkseid, without even knowing what's going on, is immediately going to open a Boom Tube behind his head?

Has he ever shown this capability in combat? I mean I understand that if you CAN open portals, you should be able to in combat, but really why doesn't DS use this against...I dunno, Mr. Mxy's ultra-gun? Is it because he's so arrogant he thinks nothing can hurt him?

Though realistically if he opens them with his eyes, Goku's waaay faster than lightspeed and has been confirmed to be ever since SS1 (The Dragonball Problem).

Darkseid also has a third, unspecified method of teleportation. All we know is that it's not a Boom Tube and it's too fast for Superman to see, yet he can measure the time between nanoseconds:

Wow, nanoseconds.

...that's only 100,000 times faster than the human eye, which Tien Shinhan and various other characters have been seeing since the World Warrior Tournaments. A camera specially made to see their movements based on the World Warrior Tournaments couldn't pick them up in the Cell Games.

Also, since when has anyone ever been able to see teleportation? Shouldn't it be..iunno...instant?

So, Darkseid doesn't even need to be present at the battle to defeat Goku. He can send avatars and shadow demons to do the job for him, or to wear Goku down (his stamina is lessened the higher the Super Saiyan transformation, right?).

You know what that sounds like?

Afterimaaaage!

^_^

Though, considering we're not starting with any avatars or shadow demons, would Darkseid be able to summon them before Goku one-shot him? Y/N?

Also, Goku's stamina INCREASES per Super Saiyan transformation due to SS4; as of SS3 in the original anime the amount of Ki was simply too much, but SS4 restructures his body as I said in my opening.

So...yeah...unless they can each bust a planet...e_e

It's also worth noting that if they're actually evil magic they won't have any effect on Goku due to his pure heart.

#59 Posted by ComicStooge (12766 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Your school is starting pretty early O.O or are you taking summer classes, and then it starts late O.o

Australian schools start and end on different times.

#60 Edited by ComicStooge (12766 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

Now, to continue on with Darkseid's abilities, I'm going to start on the ones that can counter Goku's and/or the abilities Goku may not have a counter for.

Darkseid has some telepathic abilities, he can telepathically steal information from targets, create mental links etc:

Even if Darkseid can't attack his mind (he hasn't shown that he can), he could just as easily telepathically force Goku to stand still, giving him more than enough to hit him with the Omega Beams.

Impressive -yet users of telepathy and magic in DBZ, such as Babidi, haven't been able to control Vegeta, whose fighting spirit is much weaker than Goku's. In the DBZ universe, telepathy is based entirely around fighting spirit, and Goku's is unparalleled. Indeed, Superman resisted Sleez's telepathy just off of moral fiber, and even if Darkseid's telepathy is stronger, Goku's fighting spirit has always been unparalleled, to the point that his 'moral fiber', so to speak, is so much that he literally has not a single dark thought in his heart (evidenced by the Devilmite Beam and Maijin curse failing).

Speaking of the Omega Beams, did you know they don't just incinerate?

Darkseid can BFR remove opponents either to different locations or through time and transmute them, as he did against Slo-Bo:

His transmutation against Cyborg Superman:

Another example of his time manipulation:

Basically, one hit from the OBs and it's over.

Well it's a good thing they aren't going to get a chance to hit me, isn't it? If the Flash has dodged the OBs I fail to see why Goku can't. You've got nothing that could show Darkseid's even close to fighting at Goku's speed, not to mention with Instant Transmission Goku could just teleport behind Darkseid and have the OBs come back at Darkseid (is that a thing? I feel like it isn't). If anything, I should be asking you how Darkseid is going to withstand something that hits with the force of a hundred supernovas!

Darkseid even has multiple ways of teleporting himself:

Well damn, it's almost like Goku hasn't fought entire fights with Instant Transmission!

Hypothetically, what's to stop him from opening Boom Tubes in front of Goku's blasts, reverting them completely away?

So you're telling me that when the fight starts, and Goku ITs behind Darkseid (which is completely silent, by the way, scans if you want) and punches him...

...Darkseid, without even knowing what's going on, is immediately going to open a Boom Tube behind his head?

Has he ever shown this capability in combat? I mean I understand that if you CAN open portals, you should be able to in combat, but really why doesn't DS use this against...I dunno, Mr. Mxy's ultra-gun? Is it because he's so arrogant he thinks nothing can hurt him?

Though realistically if he opens them with his eyes, Goku's waaay faster than lightspeed and has been confirmed to be ever since SS1 (The Dragonball Problem).

Darkseid also has a third, unspecified method of teleportation. All we know is that it's not a Boom Tube and it's too fast for Superman to see, yet he can measure the time between nanoseconds:

Wow, nanoseconds.

...that's only 100,000 times faster than the human eye, which Tien Shinhan and various other characters have been seeing since the World Warrior Tournaments. A camera specially made to see their movements based on the World Warrior Tournaments couldn't pick them up in the Cell Games.

Also, since when has anyone ever been able to see teleportation? Shouldn't it be..iunno...instant?

So, Darkseid doesn't even need to be present at the battle to defeat Goku. He can send avatars and shadow demons to do the job for him, or to wear Goku down (his stamina is lessened the higher the Super Saiyan transformation, right?).

You know what that sounds like?

Afterimaaaage!

^_^

Though, considering we're not starting with any avatars or shadow demons, would Darkseid be able to summon them before Goku one-shot him? Y/N?

Also, Goku's stamina INCREASES per Super Saiyan transformation due to SS4; as of SS3 in the original anime the amount of Ki was simply too much, but SS4 restructures his body as I said in my opening.

So...yeah...unless they can each bust a planet...e_e

It's also worth noting that if they're actually evil magic they won't have any effect on Goku due to his pure heart.

Darkseid's Omega Beams are FTL.

Barry and Wally were running from the Black Racer at FTL, yet the Omega Beams were right behind them the whole time:

I'd also like to point out, even if you destroy Darkseid's physical body, you still have to deal with his soul:

And as far as we know, Darkseid's soul can only be defeated when his opponent utilizes a specific frequency that counteracts the vibrational frequency of the universe.

Can Goku do this? If so, is he smart enough to figure it out?

#61 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

That scan(s) looks suspiciously non-crisis.

Don't make me go all GT on you.

#62 Edited by ComicStooge (12766 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

That scan(s) looks suspiciously non-crisis.

Don't make me go all GT on you.

Those are from Final Crisis, dude. I'm not sure what you mean.

#63 Posted by ComicStooge (12766 posts) - - Show Bio

If you want another example of Darkseid's soul existing beyond the death of his physical body:

And if you'd like to point out that this example of him doing that was Pre-Crisis (the story being published in 1980), that argument won't work. New Gods are multiversal and Darkseid remembers COIE:

#64 Edited by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: That makes much more sense, dunno why I even thought you'd be on the same schedule ^_^

#65 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

Ohhhh from all the scans I thought we were doing PC Darkseid

Alright I'll have my rebuttal up in 6 hours

#66 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

Alright.

First on the Omega Beams, Wally says, and I quote 'we have to reach superluminal velocities'.

Luckily for Goku, DBZ characters don't have to accelerate. They reach the peak of their movement speed instantly and degrade from there, and as you know Goku's speed in SS4 is 50,000 c on the low end.

Also, as for Darkseid's soul thing, victory terms are Kill, BFR, KO or Incap...no 'eradicate Darkseid's soul' in there. Of course Goku wouldn't figure it out, how would he?

#67 Posted by RidTom (214 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: hey just saiyain but you should actually include Super Saiyain God mode since its actually canon and Goku can now utilize it.

#68 Edited by ComicStooge (12766 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@comicstooge:

Alright.

First on the Omega Beams, Wally says, and I quote 'we have to reach superluminal velocities'.

Luckily for Goku, DBZ characters don't have to accelerate. They reach the peak of their movement speed instantly and degrade from there, and as you know Goku's speed in SS4 is 50,000 c on the low end.

Also, as for Darkseid's soul thing, victory terms are Kill, BFR, KO or Incap...no 'eradicate Darkseid's soul' in there. Of course Goku wouldn't figure it out, how would he?

But they reached Superluminal speeds as they got into that blue heued void, yet the OB still weren't far behind them.

The point is Darkseid's soul is still capable of fighting Goku. He's not dead, KO'd, Incapacitated, BFR'd or otherwise. His physical body is destroyed, Darkseid still lives.

Also, in response to your argument against TP, Superman's moral fiber only stopped Sleez from forcing him to show emotion, he was still doing all the actions Sleez wanted him to.

Regardless, Mr Miracle completely no-sold Sleez's telepathy without difficulty.ao he's obviously above Sleez, in terms of telepathy. Goku's pure of heart won't save him. Babadi's TP is obviously works different to the standard comicbook TP, considering willpower is completely useless against a strong enough telepath.

I'll be honest with you, I'm no expert Mathematician, nor any sort of expert on the Dragon Ball series, but Goku's feats don't seem to match up all that well to the feats you've suggested he can accomplish.

I'd also like to point that for a supposed galaxy buster that can survive those same attacks, move at 50000 times light speed and has the power of a hundred supernovas, Goku seemed to have get quite damaged when hit with attacks that only put him through buildings, was amazed that his opponent could bust a city, his Kamehameha only put a large trench in the ground and his full power Kamehameha only leveled part of a city:

You could keep saying how GT is garbage and it "doesn't know what it's talking about", but ultimately Goku's actual presented feats in the show aren't even a fraction of what you calculate. And the show is more valid then any sort of fan calculation.

Starting at Super Saiyan 4 seems like it'd put Goku at a large disadvantage.

#69 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

darkseid had quite an amp when he mind controlled the 3 billion daxamites. In the first issue of the arc (GDS - pre crisis) he absorbed excalibur and the orb (at this point he even claimed that he was fulfilled), then in the second issue he proceeded to absorb mordro's as well as time trapper's power, both of whom are above him by a good margin, though the 1987 who's who bio (equivalent to marvel's official handbook) refers to time trapper and darkseid as peers (i can post it if you want), but these bios tend to be inaccurate.

another point is that in FC superman didn't kill darkseid, even when superman "cancels him out", darkseid tried (but failed) to reincarnate in batman: the return of bruce wayne arc.

#70 Posted by Lvenger (19836 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: This is a CAV debate mate. Meaning just comic stooge and darklord should be debating, not you I'm afraid. The points made are for the opponent to address, not you.

#71 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@rolldestroyer: This is a CAV debate mate. Meaning just comic stooge and darklord should be debating, not you I'm afraid. The points made are for the opponent to address, not you.

i know, just clarifying on the context, unless, even that is not allowed?

#72 Edited by Lvenger (19836 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@rolldestroyer: This is a CAV debate mate. Meaning just comic stooge and darklord should be debating, not you I'm afraid. The points made are for the opponent to address, not you.

i know, just clarifying on the context, unless, even that is not allowed?

I wouldn't have thought so. This is a one on one debate so even clarifying the context of the scans posted should be reserved until it's answered by the opponent or waiting until the voting to address it.

#73 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer said:

@lvenger said:

@rolldestroyer: This is a CAV debate mate. Meaning just comic stooge and darklord should be debating, not you I'm afraid. The points made are for the opponent to address, not you.

i know, just clarifying on the context, unless, even that is not allowed?

Not allowed, sorry.

Also, for some reason my notifications were broken, so...

@comicstooge:

Superluminal thing - They weren't above the speed of light, but the OBs were still BEHIND them...meaning the OBs are either inconsistent or have to accelerate.

Soul - If you really think Goku would have to learn a song to defeat Darkseid, I suppose I lose, but really man c'mon.

Third...uhm...well I'm not sure how to go about this since rolldestroyer already debunked this. I suppose I'll just let you pick a different feat if apparently Darkseid was amped?

But in any case, if telepathy in DBZ can be shaken off via willpower and telepathy in DC has on numerous occasions been shaken off by chars with enough willpower and Goku has obscene amounts of willpower...I fail to see how this is relevant. In any case, if voters feel that Darkseid winning by telepathy is a reason for you to win, well, I wouldn't have agreed to CAV if I'd thought you wouldn't have restricted Darkseid.

GT:

I addressed in my opening that I wouldn't be using feats from GT. If I'd made the OP (probably should have) I'd have addressed that GT wouldn't be referred to except for SS4 and the other fight.

Firstly, Goku in SS4 going off of feats is weaker than he was in SS3 going off of feats.

Secondly, supposedly base Goku in GT is stronger than SS3 Goku was in DBZ, meaning I'd get like a 400x boost to all of my calcs.

Thirdly, it's not even flipping canon as the writers of GT didn't consult Toriyama on ANYTHING.

Realistically, GT is exactly as official as my calcs, considering Toriyama doesn't consider either of ours reliable. Perhaps even more so, since GT is widely hated by everyone including Akira Toriyama himself.

#74 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@ridtom said:

@thedarklordpandamonium: hey just saiyain but you should actually include Super Saiyain God mode since its actually canon and Goku can now utilize it.

I feel kind of like an idiot when my only source for SSG deflecting Bill's Galaxy-Buster is the wiki.

#75 Posted by Jgames (1686 posts) - - Show Bio

@ridtom said:

@thedarklordpandamonium: hey just saiyain but you should actually include Super Saiyain God mode since its actually canon and Goku can now utilize it.

I feel kind of like an idiot when my only source for SSG deflecting Bill's Galaxy-Buster is the wiki.

True but SSJ god have anywhere from 70x minimum to possible 140x due to the fact SSJ3 got stomped by 1% Bill, and yet SSJ God was able to handle 70%. SO why did I say 140, because SSJ god did not got stomped by Bill this time, meaning it had to be more than 70, since it be basically like SSJ3 goku vs Bill all over again, and I say 140 because It is possible to stomp goku if Bill is twice as stronght, it happened to Cell when gohan got a 2x power boost, And Goku beat pikkon someone who was way more powerful than him and Frieza was able to hold his own against SSJ Goku despite the 20,000 power cap IIRC from the guide book. And he can absorb energy so yeah although he does have a 5 minute limit. But whatever good luck with the debate,

#76 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@jgames:

Again I feel dumb when my only source is the wiki.

I've already seen the movie and it was freaking great, but I can't post clips so I'd have to be like 'my source is the wiki'.

XD

#77 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio
#78 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dratini1331:

I'm only not getting notifications from this thread. Bugs me.

#79 Posted by ComicStooge (12766 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer said:

@lvenger said:

@rolldestroyer: This is a CAV debate mate. Meaning just comic stooge and darklord should be debating, not you I'm afraid. The points made are for the opponent to address, not you.

i know, just clarifying on the context, unless, even that is not allowed?

Not allowed, sorry.

Also, for some reason my notifications were broken, so...

@comicstooge:

Superluminal thing - They weren't above the speed of light, but the OBs were still BEHIND them...meaning the OBs are either inconsistent or have to accelerate.

Soul - If you really think Goku would have to learn a song to defeat Darkseid, I suppose I lose, but really man c'mon.

Third...uhm...well I'm not sure how to go about this since rolldestroyer already debunked this. I suppose I'll just let you pick a different feat if apparently Darkseid was amped?

GT:

I addressed in my opening that I wouldn't be using feats from GT. If I'd made the OP (probably should have) I'd have addressed that GT wouldn't be referred to except for SS4 and the other fight.

Firstly, Goku in SS4 going off of feats is weaker than he was in SS3 going off of feats.

Secondly, supposedly base Goku in GT is stronger than SS3 Goku was in DBZ, meaning I'd get like a 400x boost to all of my calcs.

Thirdly, it's not even flipping canon as the writers of GT didn't consult Toriyama on ANYTHING.

Realistically, GT is exactly as official as my calcs, considering Toriyama doesn't consider either of ours reliable. Perhaps even more so, since GT is widely hated by everyone including Akira Toriyama himself.

Or it could simply be they were near lightspeed already and the Omega Beams were too far away, so by the time the Omega Beams caught up Barry and Wally were going superluminal and hence capable of outrunning them.

The fact is by the end of the race (where Wally and Barry were going FTL) the OBs were right on their tails.

But all of Super Saiyan 4's feats are in GT. You're just going to completely ignore the legitimate feats of a character and instead fabricate your own?

Yet Base Goku in GT, who was amped by a factor of 4000 could hardly bust a city. This is a giant loop of ridiculous confusion.

In all fairness, these calcs aren't really yours. Didn't you get them from some user on Screw Attack who made it because he was pissed off about the outcome of the Death Battle between Superman and Goku?

Anyway, I think we could go on about this forever if we wanted. Perhaps it's best if we just get to voting?

#80 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

Or it could simply be they were near lightspeed already and the Omega Beams were too far away, so by the time the Omega Beams caught up Barry and Wally were going superluminal and hence capable of outrunning them.

The fact is by the end of the race (where Wally and Barry were going FTL) the OBs were right on their tails.

But all of Super Saiyan 4's feats are in GT. You're just going to completely ignore the legitimate feats of a character and instead fabricate your own?

Yet Base Goku in GT, who was amped by a factor of 4000 could hardly bust a city. This is a giant loop of ridiculous confusion.

In all fairness, these calcs aren't really yours. Didn't you get them from some user on Screw Attack who made it because he was pissed off about the outcome of the Death Battle between Superman and Goku?

Anyway, I think we could go on about this forever if we wanted. Perhaps it's best if we just get to voting?

Oh, so now people going at superluminal speeds can outrun the OBs?

Looks like the OBs aren't a threat considering Goku is easily superluminal.

Uh, yes. I mean I said as much.

I know. That's why people disregard GT. Supposedly Base Goku is as powerful as SS3 Goku who couldn't even NOTICE planet-busting attacks.

...no...? The Giant Piccolo calc was originally done by another user until I pointed out that while scaling up bodies, you have to use the Square-Cube Law and he thanked me for it. The solar-system-busting calc is all mine. My edited Gravity Formula is also original. And I'd read enough of the manga to know Death Battle was missing the Oozaru transformation. Other than that it's just Kaio-Ken and multipliers.

The point is that GT is as official as a Harry Potter fanfiction that J.K. Rowling explicitly said was terrible and people shouldn't read, whereas my calcs are as official as a regular fanfiction.

GT is incredibly inconsistent and I stated in my opening that I would NOT be using feats from it. If I had made the thread, I would have specified that GT was ONLY being used for the x10 multiplier, and that any 'feats' would not be relevant to the thread.

#81 Edited by ComicStooge (12766 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@comicstooge said:

Or it could simply be they were near lightspeed already and the Omega Beams were too far away, so by the time the Omega Beams caught up Barry and Wally were going superluminal and hence capable of outrunning them.

The fact is by the end of the race (where Wally and Barry were going FTL) the OBs were right on their tails.

But all of Super Saiyan 4's feats are in GT. You're just going to completely ignore the legitimate feats of a character and instead fabricate your own?

Yet Base Goku in GT, who was amped by a factor of 4000 could hardly bust a city. This is a giant loop of ridiculous confusion.

In all fairness, these calcs aren't really yours. Didn't you get them from some user on Screw Attack who made it because he was pissed off about the outcome of the Death Battle between Superman and Goku?

Anyway, I think we could go on about this forever if we wanted. Perhaps it's best if we just get to voting?

Oh, so now people going at superluminal speeds can outrun the OBs?

Looks like the OBs aren't a threat considering Goku is easily superluminal.

Uh, yes. I mean I said as much.

I know. That's why people disregard GT. Supposedly Base Goku is as powerful as SS3 Goku who couldn't even NOTICE planet-busting attacks.

...no...? The Giant Piccolo calc was originally done by another user until I pointed out that while scaling up bodies, you have to use the Square-Cube Law and he thanked me for it. The solar-system-busting calc is all mine. My edited Gravity Formula is also original. And I'd read enough of the manga to know Death Battle was missing the Oozaru transformation. Other than that it's just Kaio-Ken and multipliers.

The point is that GT is as official as a Harry Potter fanfiction that J.K. Rowling explicitly said was terrible and people shouldn't read, whereas my calcs are as official as a regular fanfiction.

GT is incredibly inconsistent and I stated in my opening that I would NOT be using feats from it. If I had made the thread, I would have specified that GT was ONLY being used for the x10 multiplier, and that any 'feats' would not be relevant to the thread.

I never said they couldn't,the Omega Beams are still VERY fast, though.

Darkseid can make wide beams ect as well, he isn't limited to his regular twin beams:

Do you have scans of him surviving these "planet busting attacks" with no damage?

Honestly, if we over-analyze all feats in fiction using scientific formula, they'd all be able to form ridiculous feats that they otherwise aren't shown capable of doing.

Example:

This is not a legitimate thing to use in a debate.

Using scientific formula to analyze fictional characters is pointless. The author didn't have all that scientific formula stuff in mind when writing it.

Fan fiction isn't valid in any case, in a debate.

However, I'm not sure this is getting us anywhere, anymore. We should just get to voting and let everyone else decide who's argument/responses were superior.

#82 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

Wouldn't say that was the best showing of the OBs considering Superman stayed in them for a good ten, twenty seconds and was just like 'rawr'. I understand they're large, but they're not as fast as Goku -and based off of that showing, they wouldn't even KO him.

As for the SS3 thing, uh...I can't really do that except by posting a bunch of videos of SS3 fighting Buu who was going around one-shotting planets, so here I go:

And while Goku SS3 was outmatched against Kid Buu and Super Buu, he took their attacks pretty easily.

Soooo...yeah...

Also, it's not really science so much as it is:

1) Analyzing how heavy something is to find out how much Goku lifts and then using that in a formula based on him attaching weights to his body and fighting with them

2) Finding out just what 'destroying the solar system' means so we have an accurate base instead of having to rely on character statements, ambiguous training, and power scaling

3) Applying multipliers to get a final result

You keep saying the author didn't have it in mind, but I've told you five or six times Toriyama gave us a bunch of official multipliers so that he didn't have to keep re-establishing how powerful the characters were when they got stronger.

I'm ready for votes.

#84 Posted by dondave (37295 posts) - - Show Bio
#85 Posted by SheenLantern (6627 posts) - - Show Bio
#86 Edited by GodTriggerHulk (1998 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Recieves my vote. Goku has no answer to Darkseid's telepathy.

#87 Posted by SheenLantern (6627 posts) - - Show Bio

@godtriggerhulk said:

@comicstooge: Recieves my vote. Goku has no answer to Darkseid's telepathy.

I believe the voting is for whoever debated better, not necessarily who's character would win.

#88 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio
#89 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm giving the first vote to @thedarklordpandamonium. I thought both sides were pretty good. To clarify, I can barely distinguish winners between the two with all the special soul powers and insta-kills going around. This would be one heck of a fight! Overall, it was a very good debate, and I enjoyed it immensely. Both sides did quite well.

The reason I'm voting for TDLP is purely based on the fact that I love his use of spoiler blocks to block off the big chunks of information. It made things easy to read and understand where he was going (for the most part). A lot of times when I just see lots and lots of scans or huge blocks of text, it becomes information overload, and it becomes hard to keep everything together. I thought TDLP simply structured his arguments in a better way.

#90 Posted by Pope052 (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opinion Goku can beat Darkseid more times than Darkseid can beat Goku, and @thedarklordpandamonium provided the perfect argument to do so. He gets my vote 100%.

Online
#91 Posted by SheenLantern (6627 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

In my opinion Goku can beat Darkseid more times than Darkseid can beat Goku, and @thedarklordpandamonium provided the perfect argument to do so. He gets my vote 100%.

Your opinion is wrong.

#92 Posted by Pope052 (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: Define the word "opinion". Opinions can't be wrong, unless you don't know the definition...

Online
#93 Edited by SheenLantern (6627 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@sheenlantern: Define the word "opinion". Opinions can't be wrong, unless you don't know the definition...

Define the word 'joke'.

Joking aside, it is indeed a fact that Darkseid would defeat Goku.

#94 Posted by Pope052 (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: You expect me to know if you're joking? It's text writing, not talking, as in it's harder to know wether someone is joking or not on the internet.

I honestly couldn't care that you believe Darkseid would beat Goku (not saying he couldn't). Indeed Darkseid can beat Goku, and Goku IN MY OPINION would beat Darkseid the small majority of times. I'd give it to Goku 6/10.

Online
#95 Edited by SheenLantern (6627 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Yeees, of course, Goku is going to beat Darkseid while drooling on the floor after having his mind deleted.

#96 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: @pope052: Do not make this into a debate, it's a CaV. Only the Viners in the challenge should be debating reasons or really question the voters, and even that should have limits. Sheen, there's no need to be rude or condescending, just let it go.

#97 Edited by Lvenger (19836 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll give my vote to @comicstooge for his arguments on Darkseid's capabilities along with his deconstructing of his opponents' calculations for Goku's limits. A well fought debate on both sides that made for a good read.

#99 Posted by SheenLantern (6627 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@sheenlantern: Please, try and provide a better way of winning rather than telepathy. Because unless Darkseid can move faster than the eye can see, he isn't tagging nor seeing Goku as long as Goku is fighting at his best.

Darkseid has attacked before Superman could react.

So he's faster than the Kryptonian eye can see.

#100 Edited by NeonGameWave (7779 posts) - - Show Bio

In terms of a fight, Goku would destroy Darkseid easily once in his SSJ4 or SSJG form but in terms of this actual debate, I really did enjoy it a lot and both sides did a phenomenal job in explaining for their characters but I think thedarklordpandamonium could of added more or supported Goku with more feats that range from across the manga and anime but other than that I believe it is a draw therefore I am left undecided.