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#1 Edited by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio

VS

RULES

- Both are bloodlusted

- Darkseid is pre-reboot

- No Anti-Life Equation

- Win via KO, BFR, Kill or Incapacitation

- Goku has access to Kaio-Ken x20 and Super Saiyan forms 1-4 in his adult body

LOCATION: Apokolips

#2 Posted by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio

Yep, this is good!

I'll have my post up in an hour or two.

In that case, do you want me to go first?

#7 Edited by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, here I go...

Darkseid's Omega Beam is gonna be his main weapon here, they track their target and move very fast, making them difficult to avoid. You'd have to be a high level speedster to routinely avoid them, given the fact they regularly tag Superman.

Now, you may think they can't do all that much damage to Goku, given the fact that Superman can easily tank them, but no, that's quite simply PIS. Here are the Omega Beams at their finest:

Doing serious damage to the Anti-Monitor. This is a being who an amped Spectre barely stalemated, consumed entire universes, tanked solar system busting attacks with literally no damage and absorbed those same attacks. Granted, he was weakened, but he was still a multiversal powerhouse and the feat is still amazing.

^(Read left to right.)

The Omega Beams even manage to hurt the Spectre, which is another great feat in itself.

He completely obliterated Cyborg Superman. It's later revealed he transmuted him into a small metal ball.

^(Read left to right.)

Darkseid effortlessly obliterated Lobo's body.

And he survived the combined might of two bombs that busted a large hole in a planet, with no damage:

And I'd also like to point out that Lobo hurt his hand punching Darkseid. Yet Lobo has done damage to the likes of Superman, Despero, Etrigan, Wonder Woman, Mon-El, Captain Marvel etc.

Darkseid's OB have also helped crack Imperiex's armor, which contains the Universal energy of the big bang. You can bet that had to be some VERY durable armor.

Now to address his physical attributes such as strength, speed and durability.

Strength-wise, he's clearly stronger then Superman (despite what Jeph Loeb would have you believe), allow me to demonstrate.

He can effortlessly a lift massive piece of machinery and toss it aside like nothing:

Darkseid is also capable of knocking Superman flat with little effort on his part,while only trying to talk to Clark:

^(read left to right)

Hell, even Darkseid's pimp hand has proven an effective weapon against A-Grade powerhouses such as Superman, Mantis, Kalibak and Captain Atom (he receives a back hand and isn't seen again throughout the fight):

Basically, if the back of hand can do so much damage, his full powered strikes are bound to bring a lot of pain to Goku, assuming he even has to use any.

Now onto his speed.

Darkseid can react in microseconds (millionths of a second):

Intercept Superman's attempt to blitz him:

Superman's even been unable to react to Desaad posing as Darkseid, when the man himself is faster:

Also, for what it's worth, Darkseid has considerable travel speed too, being describes as "unthinkable":

Now in regards to his durability:

Darkseid can survive Superman's heat vision with no damage at all:

And he literally survived a beam from a gun created by Mr Miracle that no life form could survive. This is in a universe where Kryptonians, Daxamites, Martians, Amazons, New Gods and Guardians of the Universe exist and this gun could apparently kill them all. Yet Darkseid survived and laughed at it's effects.

A weakened Darkseid tanks a punch from Supergirl without even feeling it and casually strolls away, not wanting to fight.

Darkseid casually blocks blasts from Atinai, the daughter of Highfather and keeper of a fraction of his power (think Thor compared to Odin).

Basically, I'm just laying down Darkseid's more basic abilities, which are very powerful. I'll get into his more exotic abilities after you've responded.

#8 Posted by Lvenger (18464 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting match up. Darkseid does win handily IMO but I'll see what the debaters bring to the table.

#9 Posted by NeonGameWave (7704 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome!

#10 Posted by The_PAIN (720 posts) - - Show Bio
Munch, munch.......Will be waiting for the result. :)

#11 Posted by dondave (34641 posts) - - Show Bio

This is looking good

#12 Posted by Bossmonster (2167 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: The scan where darksied gets hit by supergirl and walks. What is that from?

#13 Edited by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: The scan where darksied gets hit by supergirl and walks. What is that from?

Superman/Batman issue 25, volume 1, written by Jeph Loeb.

#14 Posted by Dratini1331 (7007 posts) - - Show Bio

Book marked for later ^_^ I want to see if you can get it so Darkseid can react the MFTL Goku that TDLP has =P

#15 Posted by Wardemon32 (4105 posts) - - Show Bio
#16 Posted by Killemall (18296 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: Number of those scans are very questionable though, i could point out few flaws but its not my place to do so in a challange a viner, like scan from Darkseid after he was boosted by powers from Etrigan being used as his own reaction time and stuffs.

Although personally Legend story arc and its implied retcon never made much sense to me, give we actually see Darkseid send Desaad away for a misson in the arc, and later we are told that it was Desaad being Darkseid all the while, also Darkseid being faster than Desaad, not sure where people are getting that from, that has never been stated.

#17 Edited by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

@wardemon32: Number of those scans are very questionable though, i could point out few flaws but its not my place to do so in a challange a viner, like scan from Darkseid after he was boosted by powers from Etrigan being used as his own reaction time and stuffs.

Although personally Legend story arc and its implied retcon never made much sense to me, give we actually see Darkseid send Desaad away for a misson in the arc, and later we are told that it was Desaad being Darkseid all the while, also Darkseid being faster than Desaad, not sure where people are getting that from, that has never been stated.

And anyway, who's to say Etrigan's amp specifically increased his reaction time?

Desaad while posing as Darkseid is physically inferior to the man himself, I don't see why that wouldn't include speed.

Though, maybe it would be best if we discussed this through PMs?

#18 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

It could go either way. I think Goku could take this given the amount of parameters stated.

#20 Posted by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyway, I guess I'll continue with another of Darkseid's basic abilities, his energy blasts. These aren't exactly Dragon Ball Z level super destructive, but they're still powerful.

Darkseid effortlessly knocked Linda Danvers, the Earth-born Angel Supergirl, out cold. Though, because she traveled to Apokolips through magic, her size was not altered, as all New Gods are actually so large they can hold planets in their hands.Traveling via Boom Tube increases your size when you enter Apokolips or New Genesis.

However, she explicitly states it doesn't make her any less powerful:

Darkseid and Highfather could blast right through the barrier protecting the Source Wall:

Darkseid's weaker energy attacks effortlessly knock Orion and Miracle Over. He then goes on and manipulates the Firestorm Matrix:

He regularly incinerates Kalibak, a dude who's tough enough to hang with Superman, with a simple touch (though he always resurrects him later):

A single blast of Darkseid's has even left the Man of Steel broken and battered, when he was only trying to disable him:

And lastly, Darkseid's attacks have knocked Superman aside and have drawn blood from him:

All this considered, I think Goku would be wanting to avoid these attacks.

#21 Posted by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio

My computers in the repair shop because we had a party and some brat tossed it through the window.

#rage

Don't worry though, I'll be back. In the meantime, here are some questions:

-Feats of Darkseid surviving Supernovas?

-Feats of Darkseid's reactions to say 1000x light speed blitz?

Well for one, Darkseid doesn't have too many durability feats that I'm aware of against that sort of destructive magnitude, however, if a Superman level character can survive a supernova (only getting knocked out), I'm sure Darkseid wouldn't have too much trouble surviving one.

And secondly, I'm not sure why that pertains to the battle, considering you'd have to prove Goku is that fast, first.

#23 Posted by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

Well I'm kind of like a super saiyan in that I adjust my arguments proportionate to the strength of my enemy.

So I just want to know what Darkseid's sort of max capabilities are so I can plan my arg.

Superman was ko'd by shadow moon, wasn't he? What supernova surviving instance are you talking about?

Bottom line, who's the most durable character Darkseid has one-shot, who's the strongest character he's been able to resist blows from, and who's the fastest person he's tagged?

He was KO'd from the force of smashing into it at infinite mass, yes.

In regards to the supernova thing:

In terms of killing, as far as I'm aware, probably H/P Doomsday. He killed him, then DD came back from the dead and sneak attacked him. Granted, the writing is shoddy in that Doomsday should not have recovered so quickly, but Darkseid still killed him.

H/P Doomsday could survive a blast as powerful as 1 million nuclear bombs, an amped Superman's best punches hardly did anything to him and it took dragging him to the end of time to actually stop him.

He's never really shown an upper limit in regards to punching power durability. Tanking a punch from a pissed off Supergirl without a scratch is quite impressive, though. Some of his brawls with Orion are pretty viscous.

I'm not sure if he's tagged Flash pre-reboot, but he frequently tags Superman with his OB, so there's that.

#24 Posted by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't even gotten to the fun parts of Darkseid's abilities yet.

#25 Posted by Cardle_grave (458 posts) - - Show Bio

Just to let you know about goku

he can tank a revenge death ball which stated it can destroy every atom and molecule in the body, Plus His Faster then light by a huge amount since his speed as a kid was faster then lightning which is 50% the Speed of light and also went form 1 side of a planet to another in a second and planet nameke is bigger then earth and he done this in Base and at SSj2 can bust solar systems stated by Akira. His reaction speed is far greater then his Speed as his able to keep up with cell powered up, Cell suppressed while vsing Vegeta was able to move to the side form the final flash which is MFTL since it went out of the solar system in a moment and SSJ goku Kept up with a much stronger Cell.

So Goku Speed is FTL

Reaction and Combat Speed MFTL

Durability able to tank blast then can reduce every molecule and atom in the body

Destruction he can destroy a solar system at SSJ2 and he has SSJ3 which is 4x of that and SSJ4 which is more then 20-30x of that

He can lift a city

#27 Edited by Cardle_grave (458 posts) - - Show Bio
#28 Edited by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio

Just to let you know about goku

he can tank a revenge death ball which stated it can destroy every atom and molecule in the body, Plus His Faster then light by a huge amount since his speed as a kid was faster then lightning which is 50% the Speed of light and also went form 1 side of a planet to another in a second and planet nameke is bigger then earth and he done this in Base and at SSj2 can bust solar systems stated by Akira. His reaction speed is far greater then his Speed as his able to keep up with cell powered up, Cell suppressed while vsing Vegeta was able to move to the side form the final flash which is MFTL since it went out of the solar system in a moment and SSJ goku Kept up with a much stronger Cell.

So Goku Speed is FTL

Reaction and Combat Speed MFTL

Durability able to tank blast then can reduce every molecule and atom in the body

Destruction he can destroy a solar system at SSJ2 and he has SSJ3 which is 4x of that and SSJ4 which is more then 20-30x of that

He can lift a city

Cheers man, but this debate is specifically me against Panda. You're more then welcome to chime in when we start voting and tell us where we've gone wrong, though. :)

#44 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#45 Posted by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio
#46 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

Will be a good fight.

Good luck to da both of you.

#47 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

NOTE: ALL VIDEOS ARE BROKEN IDK WHY

Alright y'all settle down, it's time for Goku to take the field.

Things to address:

1) Power levels will not be used past Frieza saga. They were reliable in Frieza saga, but not after that.

2) Power scaling will be used, because with special asides like speed or Buu's absorption abilities, typically if Goku is handily beating his opponent, it's fair to assume he can do just about everything his opponent can. Goku and Darkseid both mainly gain respect by defeating difficult enemies, so this is reasonable.

3) Goku will begin in SS4 with Kaio-Ken x20. I know he's only ever used Kaio-Ken x2 while in any SS form, but this is for the purposes of debate.

4) I am not going to use GT for anything except Super Dragon Fist and the Super Saiyan 4 multipliers. Why? Well, apparently Goku was as powerful in base form in GT as he was at SS3 back in Buu Saga, which makes it ridiculously easy. Also GT is bullsh*t and doesn't know what it's talking about.

5) There's going to be a lot of controversy about my calcs, so let me just tell you this: according to Akira Toriyama the creator of DBZ himself, he didn't want to go through various show-offs of a character every time they increased their power (according to him, having to have every villain defeat characters fixed at consistent levels was bad enough) so he's given us a LOT of official multipliers. That being said, I'll leave some out of my analysis (such as the exponential Tao Training or more messier aspects of Gravity training). That's it.

With all those things aside, let's get down to business.

Speed

Speed always has, and always will be, Goku's forte. I'm only going to be putting up one feat -one, incontestable, immutable feat- which we'll be using as our base later in various multipliers.

These are scans of Goku dodging bullets from the Red Ribbon Army's AK-47s, before he had received any training other than the basic training under Master Roshi.

People often like to say that dodging things is more about being where they're not before the bullet is fired, but in this case that simply isn't true; Goku is staying in one place and moving his head as he sees each of the bullets coming, and blocking them with his Power Pole.

According to wikipedia AK-47 bullets move at 715 m/s, so on the lowest of low end showings Goku before any formulae must move at 715 m/s.

People also like to bring up the Death Battle 'analysis' of Goku's speed, so let me dismiss all of this once and for all:

Q: "Why do you choose to set them in worlds that aren’t really anywhere?

A: In the end, because it’s easy.

Basically with everything, I choose my criteria based on what can be easy. If I made the real world the setting, I’d have to draw looking at reference materials, for stuff like buildings and vehicles. When you do that, people complain even if it’s just a little bit off. ... A: ...Now that you mention it, once Goku and his allies learned Bukūjutsu and were able to fly, advancing the story became really easy.

Q:What do you mean?

A: Because everyone became able to just fly straight to anywhere. That’s why thinking upthe story’s development became easy, and above all the story’s progress became speedy. Even looking at it with the pictures in mind, I became able to show things from an angle looking down upon the scenery. That was also why I initially introduced Kinto-Un. Up until then, they had to bring out planes and automobiles and the like one by one, and it was really tiresome.

See? Toriyama uses transverse speed as a blatant plot point; he admits as much in his interview. Thus, it's irrelevant (and, indeed, if we were going off of travel speed, we'd be using the instance where Goku traveled across half of Namek, which is the same size as Earth, in an instant, putting him at speeds MUCH higher than what my analysis concludes, but once more: Usain Bolt vs Bruce Lee -that is all).

Speed: 715 m/s

Strength

Now, it's well-known that Goku can lift 40 tons in base form.

Bull.

Crap.

First of all, it's actually 40 on each limb, making it 160. Originally King Kai told him to put ten tons on each limb, but this idiot put 40 tons on each limb. No idea why.

So 40 tons on each limb = 160 tons, which we then multiply by 10 (gravity of Grand Kai's planet SHOULD be similar to King Kai's planet, which was 10x, but we don't know for sure which is why this is left out of my analysis) to get 160 tons x 10 = 1,600 tons in base form (people say he was struggling, but remember this is a LIFT...Goku typically trains fighting with all this on his limbs).

However, nobody knows what the gravity here was. It could be 1x, 10x, 100x -nobody knows, so this feat is literally useless.

But what isn't useless is this feat, here:

Which is Goku, faced with a legitimate opponent in the form of Giant Piccolo, throwing him by his pinky.

In this pic, Giant Piccolo (after some scaling) is approximately 5.3 Goku's tall. According to their handbook entries, Goku is 5'9", making Piccolo 30 feet, 5.7 inches tall, about 4.1 times as large as his original 7'5". In base form, Piccolo is 255 pounds.

Now, you might think this is just 4.1x255, but it's not that easy. We have to apply something known as the Square-Cube Law, meaning that Piccolo's 4x increase in height is a 16x increase in surface area and a whopping 64x increase in mass, making Giant Piccolo a whopping 16,500 pounds!

Now, you may be saying 'that's nowhere near 40 tons. what are you trying to pull TDLP?'. Well, it's simple; Goku was throwing Piccolo by his FINGER, not lifting him. If you do karate, just ask your sensei (or anyone who you know who does karate) if throwing someone by their finger is harder than lifting them, and they'll tell you yes.

Going off of basic Namekian physiology and artwork, Piccolo's arm is about 4/10 of his height and weighs roughly 1/20 of his total weight. This makes his arm 12 feet 5 inches long, weighing 825 pounds and making the rest of his body 15,675 pounds.

Piccolo's finger, which Goku used as a level, would be about 6.5 inches or nearly half a foot long (no nails). Putting all of that into a not-so-simple lever equation, it shows that Goku would have had to been able to lift at LEAST 359,319.23 pounds in order to throw GIANT PICCOLO.

That's about 180 tons lifted as a teenager in Earth's gravity. Compare this to the feat in the other world, which was 160 tons, and...it's pretty constant. The +20 tons accounts for the fact that Goku was facing an enemy (Giant Piccolo Jr.) and thus amped up.

However, we have to apply this to Goku's training in the Capsule Corporation spaceship, which was at 100x gravity. Saiyans have the ability to adapt and overcome all obstacles, and thus Goku getting forced in 100x gravity (the spaceship malfunction and changed the gravity from 50x to 100x) kicked his Saiyan physiology into overdrive which made him adjust to the 100x gravity until he 'can't even notice it!'.

So we have to factor in that he can lift 180 tons on Earth into his 100x training (he had already trained in 10x gravity before this) meaning he can actually lift 1,800 tons -again, just slightly more than the 160 tons x 10 would have been.

Strength: 1,800 tons or 3,600,000 pounds.

Nifty, eh?

WRONG. This is useless.

See, unlike Superman comics where we can get most of his strength via him benching the planet at all, DBZ bases its character's strengths ENTIRELY around Ki blasts.

Ki Output/Durability

During the infamous Goku vs Frieza fight on Namek, Frieza is unable to withstand Goku's final blast -however, when the planet blows up, Frieza does not sustain ANY more damage at all!

This falls in line with Frieza easily shrugging off or kicking away planet-busting attacks.

And, of course, Goku also survives the explosion of Planet Namek.

However, Frieza could NOT tank Goku's blast - meaning that Goku's blast HAD to have been just as destructive if not more than the blast which destroyed Namek, as otherwise Frieza would have laughed it off. Realistically this is like 2x or 4x, but we'll just assume it was enough energy to destroy Namek.

Namek, of course, is the size of the earth according to V-Jump.

Now, how much energy does it take to destroy the Earth, like Goku was going to in this scan?

Well, according to some grad students here it's about 2x10^32 J, here about 2x10^32 J, and here as about 2x10^32 J.

This means that Goku, in SS1, can easily tank and dish out blows that are far more than capable of destroying the Earth.

Oh, that's right -you guys think Goku's max durability is that of the Gero bomb, right?

Lolnope. Goku can easily dish out punches and kicks that would destroy medium-sized planets.

That was Gohan, who Goku is more powerful than (as we saw in the scan where Vegeta admitted it) destroying Cell Juniors, each of whom have durability superior to that of Earth, as they have Frieza's cells. (along with Goku's and some others, but that's besides the point)

And that Future Trunks, who literally sliced Frieza in half, going all out against Goku and being stopped with the Ki in his pinky finger.

This is Maijin Vegeta, stronger than Gohan (the planet-puncher) going all out against Goku, who easily tanks, blocks, or catches his kicks/punches.

So we know Goku can take planet-busting punches...big deal! So can EVERYONE!

But how many planet-busting hits can he withstand?

Well, as much as I dislike going off of movies and other things (especially the Broly one since it's generated so much controversy), this is Broly destroying a planet with, like, 0 effort:

And this is Broly making a mockery out of Super Saiyan Goku with some epic music:

Goku takes 10 of these planet-bursting hits before he's thrown back, and Broly takes about the same amount of time to charge them up as he did his planet-busting blows (which makes sense, because Broly doesn't underestimate his opponents -he underestimates their Plot Armor).

And as we know from Newton's 3rd Law, Action=Reaction. So judging by this, Goku's durability and output BEFORE the cell games are (10) x (2x10^32), or (2x10^33) in Super Saiyan 1.

The first scan is Cell infamously producing a Kamehameha sufficient to destroy the Solar System.

The second scan is the official handbook supporting this by saying that SS2 has enough power to push away a blow that could destroy the Solar System, meaning SS2 has the power to destroy the Solar System judging by Gohan obliterating Cell here:

Now, this is one of the most hotly contested feats in DBZ history. People claim Cell's 'destroying the Solar System' was complete hyperbole and that we can't rely on character statements.

But is that really true?

I mean, we know that the Super Saiyan transformation never comes from a desire for something, but for a need for something; it only comes in times of all-consuming emotion. And above we showed that Goku at the time of the first Broly movie, before the Cell Games, could resist 10 planet-destroying attacks and still move forward -which means that if Cell's Kamehameha had been anything short of...well, solar-system-busting, the Super Saiyan 2 transformation would not have occurred.

It's also worth mentioning that the OFFICIAL HANDBOOK says Cell's Kamehameha had the energy to blow up a Solar System, which is equivalent to him actually having done it. The handbook is a guide for the series and allows Toriyama to add in excessive detail for the people who want it without overinflating the chapters.

And as for character statements, well...DBZ characters have always been able to know how much Ki they have (with the exception of Frieza, but the Frost Demons can't even sense Ki) and basically everyone else who was there agreed that Cell could destroy the Solar System. This isn't Chi-Chi saying Goku can fight a million times light speed, it's people who are so good at sensing Ki they can travel across GALAXIES with it saying that, yes, Cell could have in fact destroyed the Solar System with his Kamehameha.

Gohan's SS2 Kamehameha had enough power to both repel Cell's Solar-System-busting Kamehameha AND kill Cell in the process, meaning at SS2 Gohan could destroy 2 Solar Systems, or 20 planets (roughly) which falls PERFECTLY in line with Goku being able to endure/deal out 10 planet-busting blows (or approx 1 solar system roughly) at SS1, given SS1-SS2 is a x2 increase!

Of course, the 1 solar system = 10 planets is a super-lowball, but it accounts for Goku's training for that fight, which was...well, a whole helluva lot. Vegeta trained at 300x gravity, 150x more than he was used to, and Goku was twice as powerful as him, meaning Goku trained to be over 300x as powerful for the Cell fight. But this is more accurately described in the calc below.

And the third scan is of Vegeta proclaiming Goku to be more powerful than Gohan when he battled Cell, meaning we can take away that puny '10 planet' number, and replace it with the energy required to blow up the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune (Pluto's not a planet. Sorry.) twice.

How much energy is that?

Well, here's the formula to blow up any planet as a function of its radius and density:

E(p,R) = (16/3)*G*(p^2)*(pi^2)*(R^5) all divided by 5

Where G is the gravitational constant

Where p is the density of the planet in question in kg/m^3 (careful, the wikipedia page is in g/m^3)

Where R is the radius of the planet in question

If we plug in all the numbers, this is what we get for the energy required to blow up each planet (this is also each planet's gravitational binding energy, btw, and only the energy needed to separate two halves of a planet, not disintegrate as most people think):

Mercury = 1.8 x 10^30

Venus = 1.5 x 10^32

Earth = 2 x 10^32

Mars = 4.9 x 10^30

Jupiter = 2 x 10^36

Saturn = 2.6 x 10^35

Uranus = 1.2 x 10^34

Neptune = 1.7 x 10^34

Sun = 6.9 x 10^41

Add that together, what do you get?

6.900028 x 10^41 J (I love how this is almost exactly the same as the energy required to blow up the sun). That's how much energy is required to blow up a Solar System, and that's HALF of the energy Super Saiyan 2 has.

Goku at Super Saiyan 2 has a maximum Kamehameha output/durability of 1.4 x 10^42, enough energy to blow up every planet in the Solar System and the sun...twice!

Power Multipliers

Alright, this is where we get into the real nitty-gritty. Each multiplier is going to be one spoiler block.

Goku's first definitive, immutable power multiplier is when he drinks the 'sacred water' atop Karin's tower to face King Piccolo without being crushed like he was here:

And here are the scans of the power increase:

Which Goku goes through in order to beat King Piccolo.

...but what IS this power increase?

ell, unfortunately, the English translation is idiotic and includes Vegeta making fun of Goku for not having a tail.

This is the Japanese scan:

Which, translated, means:

"Wanna hear something good?... When a Saiyan becomes an Oozaru, they reveal their true battle power 10 times what it is in human form!!!!"

But don't take my word for it -take the word of the Kanzenshuu, the official DBZ source.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/chp-233/

Vegeta then explains to him that an Ōzaru Saiyan has a battle power ten times that of one in their human form. This means all of Goku's stats have now been MULTIPLIED BY TEN!

He then goes back and beats the living crap out of King Piccolo.

Who literally said 'I'm going to block you'.

And clearly didn't.

#namekianssuck

First Multiplier: Oozaru x10

Now, as I mentioned briefly before, Goku trained on the Capsule Corporation Spaceship in 100x gravity, up from his training in 10x at King Kai's planet, and he got used to it, showing a 100x increase from the 180 tons he lifted as a teenager (Giant Piccolo feat). I'm here to elaborate on this.

How?

Well, firstly, lore-wise, Saiyans increase their fighting abilities proportionate to the amount of strain they are under, showing ki auras or against opponents (which is why the Giant Piccolo feat is reasonable, as it's against an opponent, powering him up).

Second, power-level wise (And by the way, power levels WERE consistent during Frieza saga. There's a lot of evidence for it, and I'll give it to you if you ask).

During the Raditz saga, Goku was around 600-800 (600 base, 800 when he was fighting).

After training in King Kai's planet (10x gravity) Goku was at power level 8,000...or 800 x 10 (no opponents here, so this is his base)

After training in the Capsule Corp. spaceship (100x gravity) Goku was at power level 90,000...or 8,000 x 10, plus a bit because it was measured during battle.

So there you have it - Gravity training is just a tad bit more than linear to power levels, which were consistent in Frieza saga as was gravity training.

Now, we're going to be using Death Battle's infamous Gravity Formula, which is:

Amended to our revised 180 tons, of course. Death Battle used Goku being able to carry 40 tons (but not move around and fight with it like he usually trains, only lift) as their base, in this formula:

m=mass lifted, in kg (they used 40 tons + goku's weight because he was flying)

l=gravity of location mass was lifted, in acceleration downwards in meters per second

w=normal body weight

g=gravity of normal planet, in acceleration downwards in meters per second

c=gravity needed to match maximum lift

(ml/wg)=c

People sometimes think they used this formula:

(80,000 + 136.7) / 136.7 = 586

Because it comes out to exactly 586.

Unfortunately, that's the wrong tonnage. It uses 1 ton = 2000 pounds instead of 1 ton = 2,204 pounds, which is the SI ton that Japan uses. (I don't know whether or not Death Battle used 1 ton = 2000 pounds or not, but I'm relatively sure they didn't) Moreover, this formula is the one NASA uses (or used since they're now basically defunct) for training astronauts.

Now allow me to explain what this formula tells us.

The original instance Death Battle used was of Goku lifting 40 tons in the anime, where his words were 'I can barely move'. If we assume that Grand Kai's planet had the same 10x gravity as King Kai's planet, then that feat would actually be 40x4 (the Kai said he'd make it 40 on each limb) = 160, x10 for gravity = 1,600, then x10 = 16,000 due to gravity training for Super Saiyan 1.

And as we all know, by the end of the series Goku at base form was more or less equal to his Super Saiyan form back during the Namek saga, roughly when all of the things I just mentioned occurred. There's a lot of evidence for this, such as statements by the Supreme Kais, the Z-Sword, the return of Frieza, etc -if you need it, CS, just ask.

However, since we don't know for sure that Grand Kai's planet had 10x gravity like King Kai's planet and Goku is at his best in battle, I'm going to be using the 180 tons x 10 for gravity training = 1,800 tons instead of 16,000/10=1,600.

So anyhow, back to the formula.

m=180 tons, or 163,293 kg

l=gravity of earth, or 9.81 m/s

w=normal body weight, or 62 kg

g=normal gravity, or 9.81 m/s

(ml/wg)=c

([163,293][9.81]/[62][9.81])

Simplifies to

(163,293/62)

Or

2633.75806 times.

Remember, this is in the 10x gravity that he's already mastered (10x training on King Kai's planet -> Giant Piccolo lift).

We also have to account for Goku's training in 100x gravity

aboard the Capsule Corporation spaceship, which his Saiyan heritage allowed him to adjust to until he didn't even notice it (this pic is of Vegeta training at 300x gravity, but it looks cool.)

So we take our 2633.75806 and multiply it by 10 for the 10x increase in gravity, to get a whopping... (first version is only for speed, second version is for everything else)

Second Multiplierv1speed: Gravity Training x 26,337

Second Multiplierv2allelse: Gravity Training x 10

Don't worry, those were the hard times -from now on, it's easy-peasy.

THAT'S RIGHT IT'S THE MOTHERFLIPPING KAIO-KEN!

The Kaio-Ken was Goku's trump card for a while; it multiplies the user's ki for a very brief amount and sends this strength into multiplying all of their abilities by the amount.

Goku's maximum Kaio-Ken shown has been x20, and his maximum Super Kaio-Ken (Kaio-Ken + Super Saiyan) has been x2 for Pikkon, buuuut we're just going to assume he can pull off x20 Kaio-Ken with Super Saiyan 4. Why? Well, Super Saiyan 4 completely restructures Goku's body to handle the increased ki -as opposed to Super Saiyan 3, which is almost life-threatening.

And, of course, GT was nonsense so they didn't use the Kaio-Ken in combination with Super Saiyan 4, as is completely logical.

Damn GT.

Third Multiplier: Kaio-Ken x 20

But the Kaio-Ken WAS outmatched in Goku's final fight against Frieza...so when Frieza killed his best friend Krillin, Goku became...

A SUPER SAIYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!

This was an OBSCENE increase in power, and in the words of Goku, 'the power comes in response to a need, not a desire'. It is the personification of the Saiyan's only superpower, the ability to overcome all odds -when faced with a daunting opponent, Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan increasing his power level by 50 times! (30,000,000->150,000,000), his ULTIMATE form!

Well, except for Super Saiyan 2...

Power Multiplier x2 and lightning

Or Super Saiyan 3...

Power Multiplier x4 and hair...

Or Super Saiyan 4...

Power Multiplier x10 and looking batsh*t insane

Fourth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 1 x50

Fifth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 2 x2

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

All multipliers:

First Multiplier: Oozaru x10

Second Multiplierv1speed: Gravity x26,337

Second Multiplierv2allelse: Gravity x10

Third Multiplier: Kaio-Ken x20

Fourth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 1 x50

Fifth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 2 x2

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

Final Stats

Speed

Base: 715

Multipliers:

First Multiplier: Oozaru x10

Second Multiplier: Gravity x26,337

Third Multiplier: Kaio-Ken x20

Fourth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 1 x50

Fifth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 2 x2

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

Final: approx 15,000,0000,000 or approx 50,000 c (light speed x 50,000)

Strength (irrelevant but hey)

Base: 180 tons

Multipliers:

Second Multiplierv2: Gravity x10

Third Multiplier: Kaio-Ken x20

Fourth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 1 x50

Fifth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 2 x2

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

Final: 144,000,000 tons or 288,000,000,000 pounds...nowhere near the Earth's weight. :(( sadface Goku does not lift.

Punch/Kick Output/Blow-Catching Durability

Base: 2 x10^32

Multipliers:

Third Multiplier: Kaio-Ken x20

Fourth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 1 x50

Fifth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 2 x2

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

Final: 16,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 1.6 x 10^37, enough to destroy 80,000 planets.

Maximum Kamehameha Ki Output/Durability

Base: 1.4 x 10^42

Multipliers:

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

Final: 560,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 J of force or 5.6 x 10^43...enough to blow up every planet in the solar system and the sun 80 times, or about half a Supernova.

...JUST KIDDING!

What do you think this is, amateur hour? XD

Real Ki Output/Durability

We know from the previous analysis that Goku's SS4 x10 Kamehameha had a power output of 5.6 x 10^43

But is this his ENTIRE output?!

NO!

And despite my best efforts to NOT use GT, the best way to calculate Goku's MAXIMUM KI OUTPUT is to go off of his fights with Nuova Shenron, Eis Shenron, and then Syn Shenron before he gets healed, as he is completely dead on Ki at the end of this. (though it's worth noting that Goku was starving before these fights as well as completely drained)

Starting with Nuova, Goku fires:

-1 Super Kamehameha in Base Form (the same kind Cell used in the Solar-System-Buster analysis, except 1/50 of its total power)

-1 Super Kamehameha at SS4

-1 Kamehameha x10 at SS4

Eis Shenron shows up

-1 Super Dragon Fist

Syn Shenron shows up

-1 Kamehameha x10 at SS4

At which point Goku is so drained he turns back to Base Form and his family has to come save him.

SO the Super Kamehameha in Base Form I'm basically going to disregard because 1/50 of the Super Saiyan 2 power isn't even worth the effort to calculate.

The Super Kamehameha at SS4 are equivalent to .5 Supernovas, so that's .5 supernovas.

And the Kamehamehas x10 are...well, 10x stronger than the typical Kamehameha. So they're 5 supernovas each, or 10 supernovas total.

But how much is the Super Dragon Fist?

Well, the Super Dragon Fist is Goku's most powerful attack, and anime-only.

Indeed, it almost killed Omega Shenron.

Key word being 'almost killed'.

As in 'didn't actually do sh*t because Omega Shenron regenerated just like Rage Shenron did'.

Nevertheless, it managed to knock him down and he would have been gone had he not had the powers of Rage Shenron.

And, according to Omega Shenron himself...

Omega Shenron is ten times stronger than Syn Shenron, who the Kamehameha x10 did jack-sh*t against:

Which means that the Super Dragon Fist, Goku's most powerful move which channels as much Ki as possible and is in fact so powerful it has to MANIFEST outside of his body, is a whopping 100 Supernovas or 10^45 in power at the bare minimum (of course the Kamehameha x10 didn't even scratch Syn Shenron, making Goku very surprised, and the Super Dragon Fist nearly killed x10 that, probably more, so it should really be tons more, buuut...e_e lowball life)

Adding all of these together, we get .5+5+5+100 to get a total of 110.5 Supernovas, or

Total Maximum Ki Output: 110.5 Supernovas

Super Dragon Fist Power Level: 100 Supernovas

Etc. Abilities

Alright, there are just a feeeeew more abilities I need to touch up on really quick.

Firstly, Goku has withstood temperatures hotter than the sun in his fight with Nuova Shenron...

...though that's kind of idiotic considering Goku's withstood being shoved into lava which is 2,192 degrees Fahrenheit at SS1:

And if you put that through the multipliers you get Goku being able to withstand about 81,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

And he can withstand ice too from Eis Shenron but I'm fairly sure Darkseid doesn't put people on ice so that's irrelevant.

Next up is Goku's fighting style.

He's a genius. That's about all there is. Buuut I'm sure Darkseid is too.

And lastly is the infamous Instant Transmission, which Death Battle has understated by claiming that Goku has to be able to focus.

Bullcrap. The original Japanese dub of that was that there was too much Ki everywhere for Goku to be able to lock on to anything, which makes MUCH more sense considering Goku's fought entire FIGHTS with Instant Transmission -for example against Nuova Shenron.

Now, finally...

Conclusion

Goku is 50,000 times the speed of light.

With one punch he has the strength to blow up 80,000 planets, or more than all the planets in the Solar System (not counting the sun ofc).

With one Kamehameha x10, he emits power equivalent to 10 supernovas

With one Super Dragon Fist, an attacks which needs no charge-up-time, he emits power equivalent to 100 supernovas.

His max ki output before he's completely drained and reverts back to base form is 110.5 supernovas (though keep in mind this was while he was already incredibly drained and starving).

He can use Instant Transmission to overcome opponents much faster than he is -which Nuova Shenron was only able to counteract by sensing Goku's Ki and predicting his next movement.

He can withstand 80,000 degrees Fahrenheit of heat.

Goku wins this.

Thanks for reading.

(=

-The Dark Lord Pandamonium

#48 Posted by ComicStooge (12050 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright y'all settle down, it's time for Goku to take the field.

Things to address:

1) Power levels will not be used past Frieza saga. They were reliable in Frieza saga, but not after that.

2) Power scaling will be used, because with special asides like speed or Buu's absorption abilities, typically if Goku is handily beating his opponent, it's fair to assume he can do just about everything his opponent can. Goku and Darkseid both mainly gain respect by defeating difficult enemies, so this is reasonable.

3) Goku will begin in SS4 with Kaio-Ken x20. I know he's only ever used Kaio-Ken x2 while in any SS form, but this is for the purposes of debate.

4) I am not going to use GT for anything except Super Dragon Fist and the Super Saiyan 4 multipliers. Why? Well, apparently Goku was as powerful in base form in GT as he was at SS3 back in Buu Saga, which makes it ridiculously easy. Also GT is bullsh*t and doesn't know what it's talking about.

5) There's going to be a lot of controversy about my calcs, so let me just tell you this: according to Akira Toriyama the creator of DBZ himself, he didn't want to go through various show-offs of a character every time they increased their power (according to him, having to have every villain defeat characters fixed at consistent levels was bad enough) so he's given us a LOT of official multipliers. That being said, I'll leave some out of my analysis (such as the exponential Tao Training or more messier aspects of Gravity training). That's it.

With all those things aside, let's get down to business.

Speed

Speed always has, and always will be, Goku's forte. I'm only going to be putting up one feat -one, incontestable, immutable feat- which we'll be using as our base later in various multipliers.

These are scans of Goku dodging bullets from the Red Ribbon Army's AK-47s, before he had received any training other than the basic training under Master Roshi.

People often like to say that dodging things is more about being where they're not before the bullet is fired, but in this case that simply isn't true; Goku is staying in one place and moving his head as he sees each of the bullets coming, and blocking them with his Power Pole.

According to wikipedia AK-47 bullets move at 715 m/s, so on the lowest of low end showings Goku before any formulae must move at 715 m/s.

People also like to bring up the Death Battle 'analysis' of Goku's speed, so let me dismiss all of this once and for all:

Q: "Why do you choose to set them in worlds that aren’t really anywhere?

A: In the end, because it’s easy.

Basically with everything,

I choose my criteria based on what can be easy. If I made the real world the setting, I’d have to draw looking at reference materials,

for stuff like buildings and vehicles. When you do that, people complain even if it’s just a little bit off. ... A: ...Now that you mention it, once Goku and his allies learned Bukūjutsu and were able to fly, advancing the story became really easy. Q:

What do you mean?

A: Because everyone became able to just fly straight to anywhere. That’s why thinking up

the story’s development became easy, and above all the story’s progress became speedy.

Even looking at it with the pictures in mind, I became able to show things from an angle looking down upon the scenery. That was also why I initially introduced Kinto-Un. Up until then, they had to bring out planes and automobiles and the like one by one, and it was really tiresome.

See? Toriyama uses transverse speed as a blatant plot point; he admits as much in his interview. Thus, it's irrelevant (and, indeed, if we were going off of travel speed, we'd be using the instance where Goku traveled across half of Namek, which is the same size as Earth, in an instant, putting him at speeds MUCH higher than what my analysis concludes, but once more: Usain Bolt vs Bruce Lee -that is all).

Speed: 715 m/s

Strength

Now, it's well-known that Goku can lift 40 tons in base form.

Bull.

Crap.

First of all, it's actually 40 on each limb, making it 160:

So 40 tons on each limb = 160 tons, which we then multiply by 10 (gravity of Grand Kai's planet SHOULD be similar to King Kai's planet, which was 10x) to get 160 tons x 10 = 1,600 tons in base form (people say he was struggling, but remember this is a LIFT...Goku typically trains fighting with all this on his limbs).

As you can see in this video, Goku does not have a Ki aura! Even in the manga scan, he didn't have any Ki aura until he went Super Saiyan!

Why does this matter?

Well, Ki auras are the auras around DBZ characters that form when they exert themselves, filling their bodies with Ki and increasing their stats. Goku does not have one here, e.g. this is not even CLOSE to his max. This makes sense, as most of Goku's training relies around simply undergoing adversity due to his Saiyan nature. This is is why he trains with weights on his limbs or weighted clothes.

This is Trunks suppressing his Ki aura, all the way down to that of a HUMAN!

So...how much WAS Goku suppressing his Ki aura? Unfortunately, nobody knows, so this feat is literally useless.

But what isn't useless is this feat, here:

Which is Goku, faced with a legitimate opponent in the form of Giant Piccolo, throwing him by his pinky.

In this pic, Giant Piccolo (after some scaling) is approximately 5.3 Goku's tall. According to their handbook entries, Goku is 5'9", making Piccolo 30 feet, 5.7 inches tall, about 4.1 times as large as his original 7'5". In base form, Piccolo is 255 pounds.

Now, you might think this is just 4.1x255, but it's not that easy. We have to apply something known as the Square-Cube Law, meaning that Piccolo's 4x increase in height is a 16x increase in surface area and a whopping 64x increase in mass, making Giant Piccolo a whopping 16,500 pounds!

Now, you may be saying 'that's nowhere near 40 tons. what are you trying to pull TDLP?'. Well, it's simple; Goku was throwing Piccolo by his FINGER, not lifting him. If you do karate, just ask your sensei (or anyone who you know who does karate) if throwing someone by their finger is harder than lifting them, and they'll tell you yes.

Going off of basic Namekian physiology and artwork, Piccolo's arm is about 4/10 of his height and weighs roughly 1/20 of his total weight. This makes his arm 12 feet 5 inches long, weighing 825 pounds and making the rest of his body 15,675 pounds.

Piccolo's finger, which Goku used as a level, would be about 6.5 inches or nearly half a foot long (no nails). Putting all of that into a not-so-simple lever equation, it shows that Goku would have had to been able to lift at LEAST 359,319.23 pounds in order to throw GIANT PICCOLO.

That's about 180 tons lifted as a teenager in Earth's gravity. Compare this to the feat on the perhaps 10x gravity planet, which was 1,600 tons, divide by 10 to get 160, and...it's pretty constant. The +20 tons accounts for the fact that Goku was facing an enemy (Giant Piccolo Jr.) and thus amped up.

However, we have to apply this to Goku's training in the Capsule Corporation spaceship, which was at 100x gravity. Saiyans have the ability to adapt and overcome all obstacles, and thus Goku getting forced in 100x gravity (the spaceship malfunction and changed the gravity from 50x to 100x) kicked his Saiyan physiology into overdrive which made him adjust to the 100x gravity until he 'can't even notice it!'.

So we have to factor in that he can lift 180 tons on Earth into his 100x training (he had already trained in 10x gravity before this) meaning he can actually lift 1,800 tons -again, just slightly more than the 1,600 tons feat on Grand Kai's planet.

Strength: 1,800 tons or 3,600,000 pounds.

Nifty, eh?

WRONG. This is useless.

See, unlike Superman comics where we can get most of his strength via him benching the planet at all, DBZ bases its character's strengths ENTIRELY around Ki blasts.

Ki Output/Durability

During the infamous Goku vs Frieza fight on Namek, Frieza is unable to withstand Goku's final blast -however, when the planet blows up, Frieza does not sustain ANY more damage at all!

This falls in line with Frieza easily shrugging off or kicking away planet-busting attacks.

And, of course, Goku also survives the explosion of Planet Namek.

However, Frieza could NOT tank Goku's blast - meaning that Goku's blast HAD to have been just as destructive if not more than the blast which destroyed Namek, as otherwise Frieza would have laughed it off. Realistically this is like 2x or 4x, but we'll just assume it was enough energy to destroy Namek.

Namek, of course, is the size of the earth according to V-Jump.

Now, how much energy does it take to destroy the Earth, like Goku was going to in this scan?

Well, according to some grad students here it's about 2x10^32 J, here about 2x10^32 J, and here as about 2x10^32 J.

This means that Goku, in SS1, can easily tank and dish out blows that are far more than capable of destroying the Earth.

Oh, that's right -you guys think Goku's max durability is that of the Gero bomb, right?

Lolnope. Goku can easily dish out punches and kicks that would destroy medium-sized planets.

That was Gohan, who Goku is more powerful than (as we saw in the scan where Vegeta admitted it) destroying Cell Juniors, each of whom have durability superior to that of Earth, as they have Frieza's cells. (along with Goku's and some others, but that's besides the point)

And that Future Trunks, who literally sliced Frieza in half, going all out against Goku and being stopped with the Ki in his pinky finger.

This is Maijin Vegeta, stronger than Gohan (the planet-puncher) going all out against Goku, who easily tanks, blocks, or catches his kicks/punches.

So we know Goku can take planet-busting punches...big deal! So can EVERYONE!

But how many planet-busting hits can he withstand?

Well, as much as I dislike going off of movies and other things (especially the Broly one since it's generated so much controversy), this is Broly destroying a planet with, like, 0 effort:

And this is Broly making a mockery out of Super Saiyan Goku with some epic music:

Goku takes 10 of these planet-bursting hits before he's thrown back, and Broly takes about the same amount of time to charge them up as he did his planet-busting blows (which makes sense, because Broly doesn't underestimate his opponents -he underestimates their Plot Armor).

And as we know from Newton's 3rd Law, Action=Reaction. So judging by this, Goku's durability and output BEFORE the cell games are (10) x (2x10^32), or (2x10^33) in Super Saiyan 1.

The first scan is Cell infamously producing a Kamehameha sufficient to destroy the Solar System.

The second scan is the official handbook supporting this by saying that SS2 has enough power to push away a blow that could destroy the Solar System, meaning SS2 has the power to destroy the Solar System judging by Gohan obliterating Cell here:

Gohan's SS2 Kamehameha had enough power to both repel Cell's Solar-System-busting Kamehameha AND kill Cell in the process, meaning at SS2 Gohan could destroy 2 Solar Systems, or 20 planets (roughly) which falls PERFECTLY in line with Goku being able to endure/deal out 10 planet-busting blows (or approx 1 solar system roughly) at SS1, given SS1-SS2 is a x2 increase!

Of course, the 1 solar system = 10 planets is a super-lowball, but it accounts for Goku's training for that fight, which was...well, a whole helluva lot. Vegeta trained at 300x gravity, 30x more than he was used to, and Goku was twice as powerful as him, meaning Goku trained to be over 60x as powerful for the Cell fight. But this is more accurately described in the calc below.

And the third scan is of Vegeta proclaiming Goku to be more powerful than Gohan when he battled Cell, meaning we can take away that puny '10 planet' number, and replace it with the energy required to blow up the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune (Pluto's not a planet. Sorry.)

How much energy is that?

Well, here's the formula to blow up any planet as a function of its radius and density

E(p,R) = (16/3)*G*(p^2)*(pi^2)*(R^5) all divided by 5

Where G is the gravitational constant

Where p is the density of the planet in question in kg/m^3 (careful, the wikipedia page is in g/m^3)

Where R is the radius of the planet in question

If we plug in all the numbers, this is what we get for the energy required to blow up each planet:

Mercury = 1.8 x 10^30

Venus = 1.5 x 10^32

Earth = 2 x 10^32

Mars = 4.9 x 10^30

Jupiter = 2 x 10^36

Saturn = 2.6 x 10^35

Uranus = 1.2 x 10^34

Neptune = 1.7 x 10^34

Sun = 6.9 x 10^41

Add that together, what do you get?

6.900028 x 10^41 J (I love how this is almost exactly the same as the energy required to blow up the sun). That's how much energy is required to blow up a Solar System, and that's HALF of the energy Super Saiyan 2 has.

Goku at Super Saiyan 2 has a maximum Kamehameha output/durability of 1.4 x 10^42, enough energy to blow up every planet in the Solar System...twice!

Power Multipliers

Alright, this is where we get into the real nitty-gritty. Each multiplier is going to be one spoiler block.

Goku's first definitive, immutable power multiplier is when he drinks the 'sacred water' atop Karin's tower to face King Piccolo without being crushed like he was here:

And here are the scans of the power increase:

Which Goku goes through in order to beat King Piccolo.

...but what IS this power increase?

ell, unfortunately, the English translation is idiotic and includes Vegeta making fun of Goku for not having a tail.

This is the Japanese scan:

Which, translated, means:

"Wanna hear something good?... When a Saiyan becomes an Oozaru, they reveal their true battle power 10 times what it is in human form!!!!"

But don't take my word for it -take the word of the Kanzenshuu, the official DBZ source.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/chp-233/

Vegeta then explains to him that an Ōzaru Saiyan has a battle power ten times that of one in their human form. This means all of Goku's stats have now been MULTIPLIED BY TEN!

First Multiplier: Oozaru x10

Now, as I mentioned briefly before, Goku trained on the Capsule Corporation Spaceship in 100x gravity, up from his training in 10x at King Kai's planet, and he got used to it, showing a 100x increase from the 180 tons he lifted as a teenager (Giant Piccolo feat). I'm here to elaborate on this.

How?

Well, firstly, lore-wise, Saiyans increase their fighting abilities proportionate to the amount of strain they are under, showing ki auras or against opponents (which is why the Giant Piccolo feat is reasonable, as it's against an opponent, powering him up).

Second, power-level wise (And by the way, power levels WERE consistent during Frieza saga. There's a lot of evidence for it, and I'll give it to you if you ask).

During the Raditz saga, Goku was around 600-800 (600 base, 800 when he was fighting).

After training in King Kai's planet (10x gravity) Goku was at power level 8,000...or 800 x 10 (no opponents here, so this is his base)

After training in the Capsule Corp. spaceship (100x gravity) Goku was at power level 90,000...or 8,000 x 10, plus a bit because it was measured during battle.

So there you have it - Gravity training is just a tad bit more than linear to power levels, which were consistent in Frieza saga as was gravity training.

Now, we're going to be using Death Battle's infamous Gravity Formula, which is:

Amended to our revised 180 tons, of course. Death Battle used Goku being able to carry 40 tons (but not move around and fight with it like he usually trains, only lift) as their base, in this formula:

m=mass lifted, in kg (they used 40 tons + goku's weight because he was flying)

l=gravity of location mass was lifted, in acceleration downwards in meters per second

w=normal body weight

g=gravity of normal planet, in acceleration downwards in meters per second

c=gravity needed to match maximum capabilities, OR multiplier to statistics to emulate battle stress...whichever one you think makes more sense (Goku was fighting easily with 2 tons on each limb, which emulates battle stress as Saiyans adapt, etc etc etc yada yada yada)

(ml/wg)=c

People sometimes think they used this formula:

(80,000 + 136.7) / 136.7 = 586

Because it comes out to exactly 586.

Unfortunately, that ignores the whole 'Goku lifted 40 tons on a planet with 10x gravity' that Death Battle was going for.

So anyhow, back to the formula.

m=180 tons, or 163,293 kg

l=gravity of earth, or 9.81 m/s

w=normal body weight, or 62 kg

g=normal gravity, or 9.81 m/s

(ml/wg)=c

([163,293][9.81]/[62][9.81])

Simplifies to

(163,293/62)

Or

2633.75806 times.

Remember, this is in the 10x gravity that he's already mastered (10x training on King Kai's planet -> Giant Piccolo lift).

We also have to account for Goku's training in 100x gravity

aboard the Capsule Corporation spaceship, which his Saiyan heritage allowed him to adjust to until he didn't even notice it (this pic is of Vegeta training at 300x gravity, but it looks cool.)

So we take our 2633.75806 and multiply it by 10 for the 10x increase in gravity, to get a whopping... (first version is only for speed, second version is for everything else)

Second Multiplierv1speed: Gravity Training x 26,337

Second Multiplierv2allelse: Gravity Training x 10

Don't worry, those were the hard times -from now on, it's easy-peasy.

THAT'S RIGHT IT'S THE MOTHERFLIPPING KAIO-KEN!

The Kaio-Ken was Goku's trump card for a while; it multiplies the user's ki for a very brief amount and sends this strength into multiplying all of their abilities by the amount.

Goku's maximum Kaio-Ken shown has been x20, and his maximum Super Kaio-Ken (Kaio-Ken + Super Saiyan) has been x2 for Pikkon, buuuut we're just going to assume he can pull off x20 Kaio-Ken with Super Saiyan 4. Why? Well, Super Saiyan 4 completely restructures Goku's body to handle the increased ki -as opposed to Super Saiyan 3, which is almost life-threatening.

And, of course, GT was nonsense so they didn't use the Kaio-Ken in combination with Super Saiyan 4, as is completely logical.

Damn GT.

Third Multiplier: Kaio-Ken x 20

But the Kaio-Ken WAS outmatched in Goku's final fight against Frieza...so when Frieza killed his best friend Krillin, Goku became...

A SUPER SAIYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!

This was an OBSCENE increase in power, and in the words of Goku, 'the power comes in response to a need, not a desire'. It is the personification of the Saiyan's only superpower, the ability to overcome all odds -when faced with a daunting opponent, Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan increasing his power level by 50 times! (30,000,000->150,000,000), his ULTIMATE form!

Well, except for Super Saiyan 2...

Power Multiplier x2 and lightning

Or Super Saiyan 3...

Power Multiplier x4 and hair...

Or Super Saiyan 4...

Power Multiplier x10 and looking batsh*t insane

Fourth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 1 x50

Fifth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 2 x2

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

All multipliers:

First Multiplier: Oozaru x10

Second Multiplierv1speed: Gravity x26,337

Second Multiplierv2allelse: Gravity x10

Third Multiplier: Kaio-Ken x20

Fourth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 1 x50

Fifth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 2 x2

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

Final Stats

Speed

Base: 715

Multipliers:

First Multiplier: Oozaru x10

Second Multiplier: Gravity x26,337

Third Multiplier: Kaio-Ken x20

Fourth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 1 x50

Fifth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 2 x2

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

Final: approx 15,000,0000,000 or approx 50,000 c (light speed x 50,000)

Strength (irrelevant but hey)

Base: 180 tons

Multipliers:

Second Multiplierv2: Gravity x10

Third Multiplier: Kaio-Ken x20

Fourth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 1 x50

Fifth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 2 x2

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

Final: 144,000,000 tons or 288,000,000,000 pounds...nowhere near the Earth's weight. :(( sadface Goku does not lift.

Punch/Kick Output/Blow-Catching Durability

Base: 2 x10^32

Multipliers:

Third Multiplier: Kaio-Ken x20

Fourth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 1 x50

Fifth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 2 x2

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

Final: 16,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 1.6 x 10^37, enough to destroy 80,000 planets.

Maximum Kamehameha Ki Output/Durability

Base: 1.4 x 10^42

Multipliers:

Third Multiplier: Kaio-Ken x20

Sixth Multiplier: Super Saiyan 3 x4

Seventh Multiplier: Super Saiyan 4 x10

Final: 1,120,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 J of force or 1.12 x 10^45...enough to blow up every planet in the solar system 1600 times, or about 10 Supernovas.

...JUST KIDDING!

What do you think this is, amateur hour? XD

Real Ki Output/Durability

We know from the previous analysis that Goku's SS4 x10 Kamehameha had a power output of 1.12 x 10^45

But is this his ENTIRE output?!

NO!

And despite my best efforts to NOT use GT, the best way to calculate Goku's MAXIMUM KI OUTPUT is to go off of his fights with Nuova Shenron, Eis Shenron, and then Syn Shenron before he gets healed, as he is completely dead on Ki at the end of this.

Starting with Nuova, Goku fires:

-1 Super Kamehameha in Base Form (the same kind Cell used in the Solar-System-Buster analysis, except 1/50 of its total power)

-1 Super Kamehameha at SS4

-1 Kamehameha x10 at SS4

Eis Shenron shows up

-1 Super Dragon Fist

Syn Shenron shows up

-1 Kamehameha x10 at SS4

At which point Goku is so drained he turns back to Base Form and his family has to come save him.

SO the Super Kamehameha in Base Form I'm basically going to disregard because 1/50 of the Super Saiyan 2 power isn't even worth the effort to calculate.

The Super Kamehameha at SS4 are equivalent to 10 Supernovas, so that's 10 supernovas.

And the Kamehamehas x10 are...well, 10x stronger than the typical Kamehameha. So technically, I suppose this makes them equivalent to 100 Supernovas, but, well...the fact of the matter is that they've never shown that they're 10x stronger than the Super Kamehameha. They typically seem to have the exact same effectiveness, so I'll be considering them the same, as contrary to popular belief there is no 'Super Kamehameha x10', only a 'Super Kamehameha' and a 'Kamehameha x10', the x10 actually coming from the SS4 multiplier. The Kamehameha x10 IS more powerful than the Super Kamehameha, but nobody knows by how much, so I'll be leaving them at 10 supernovas each, or 20 supernovas.

Well, the Super Dragon Fist is Goku's most powerful attack, and anime-only.

Indeed, it almost killed Omega Shenron.

Key word being 'almost killed'.

As in 'didn't actually do sh*t because Omega Shenron regenerated just like Rage Shenron did'.

Nevertheless, it managed to knock him down and he would have been gone had he not had the powers of Rage Shenron.

And, according to Omega Shenron himself...

Omega Shenron is ten times stronger than Syn Shenron, who the Kamehameha x10 did jack-sh*t against:

Which means that the Super Dragon Fist, Goku's most powerful move which channels as much Ki as possible and is in fact so powerful it has to MANIFEST outside of his body, is a whopping 100 Supernovas or 10^45 in power.

Adding all of these together, we get 10+10+10+100 to get a total of 130 Supernovas, or

Total Maximum Ki Output: 130 Supernovas

Super Dragon Fist Power Level: 100 Supernovas

Etc. Abilities

Alright, there are just a feeeeew more abilities I need to touch up on really quick.

Firstly, Goku has withstood temperatures hotter than the sun in his fight with Nuova Shenron...

...though that's kind of idiotic considering Goku's withstood being shoved into lava which is 2,192 degrees Fahrenheit at SS1:

And if you put that through the multipliers you get Goku being able to withstand about 81,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

And he can withstand ice too from Eis Shenron but I'm fairly sure Darkseid doesn't put people on ice so that's irrelevant.

Next up is Goku's fighting style.

He's a genius. That's about all there is. Buuut I'm sure Darkseid is too.

And lastly is the infamous Instant Transmission, which Death Battle has understated by claiming that Goku has to be able to focus.

Bullcrap. The original Japanese dub of that was that there was too much Ki everywhere for Goku to be able to lock on to anything, which makes MUCH more sense considering Goku's fought entire FIGHTS with Instant Transmission -for example against Nuova Shenron.

Now, finally...

Conclusion

Goku is 50,000 times the speed of light.

With one punch he has the strength to blow up 80,000 planets, or more than all the planets in the Solar System (not counting the sun ofc).

With one Kamehameha x10 or Super Kamehameha, whatever you want to call it, he emits power equivalent to 10 supernovas.

With one Super Dragon Fist, he emits power equivalent to 100 supernovas.

His max ki output before he's completely drained and reverts back to base form is 130 supernovas (though keep in mind this was while he was already incredibly drained and starving).

He can use Instant Transmission to overcome opponents much faster than he is -which Nuova Shenron was only able to counteract by sensing Goku's Ki and predicting his next movement.

He can withstand 80,000 degrees Fahrenheit of heat.

Goku wins this.

Thanks for reading.

(=

-The Dark Lord Pandamonium

As cool and as detailed as your calculations are, I'm not sure how well they really hold up.

How can you prove something scientifically, when the thing you're trying to prove isn't even scientifically possible to begin with?

For example, I could just as easily make the claim that because New Gods are so large they can fit planets in their hands, they should be able to effortlessly tank planet busting explosions and above, given their size and durability. However I'd never do that because that's a completely unproven theory that isn't even remotely true or actually showed in the canon material:

That's why we have to base debates on actual feats the characters have been shown to do, not statements by the author or characters, not fan calculations or hyperbole.

Granted, I know my argument so far for Darkseid is hardly flawless, but with all due respect, at least I haven't based it on vague statements and mathematics.

#49 Edited by NighThunder (2910 posts) - - Show Bio

Darklord...do not dare loose >.>

#50 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

This will all be cleared up once my argument actually gets scans in the morning (which by the way how did you manage to quote me with all the formatting intact and everything?)

But for now, literally as was said in one of the first few paragraphs of my opening, Toriyama wanted it to be like this. DBZ is a manga with a LOT of power increases; hell that's the only superpower the protagonists have.

As a result us the fans were supplied with official formulas to calculate their stats off of in the form of the handbooks, which are sort of like an encyclopedia for all the crap that goes on in the manga.

Also I'd be fine with that considering goku's punch at ss4 could destroy something that size (square cube law and other stuff, he can destroy something ten times the size of Jupiter as shown above and that would be 90 earths tall)