CaV: Daredevil (GhostRavage) vs. Red Hood (TNBB007)

I'm pretty sure that everyone knows Jason Todd's basic story, but I'll retell it anyway. Beware for spoilers if you haven't read the story.

His mother an addict, his father in jail, Jason Todd was a pissed off little kid with no real home or family to support him. His mother even died from an overdose when he was young. He got into fights and stole things to survive. Eventually, he hurt himself during one of his thefts and went to a hospital. After he tried to steal some basic supplies and run out on his own, Todd was approached by Batman, who wanted to take him to juvie.

But the nurse that was caring for him convinced Batman not to, and under Bruce's tutelage, he transformed into the second Robin. However, Batman found that Jason was overly violent during their patrols, he relegated him to monitor duty. There, he found that his mother was still alive, and caught the first flight to the Middle East, where she was, to find her. After a sappy-sweet reunion, he heard the Joker's maniacal laugh - and turned around to find that his own mother had betrayed him to the Joker. Joker beat him to death with a crowbar, and then blew up the building with him and his mother inside. Batman was devastated.

However, Talia al Ghul eventually found him and put him in the Lazarus Pit, which has the power to revive the dead. After raising him, she handed him over to Ducra, leader of the mystical all-caste. Here, he learned to become the greatest assassin in the world, skilled with a variety of weapons.

After leaving the All-Caste, he found Koriand'r, Princess of Tamaran, better known as Starfire. He also met up with his old pal Roy Harper, and together they became Red Hood and the Outlaws, a band of vigilantes that tried to take out threats including Helspont and the Joker.

• Martial Arts: Jason Todd is arguably the MOST skilled hand-to-hand combatant in the DC New 52 Universe. Call it hyperbole, but the fact is that he's defeated almost all of the contenders for that title, feats that I will delve into as the debate progresses. He was trained by Batman, then the All-Caste, then the League of Assassins.
• Photographic Reflexes: Jason has displayed the ability to copy his opponent's moves a la Taskmaster. He only needs to see it once to be able to use it with near-perfect proficiency himself.
• Tactical Analysis: Red Hood is a genius in combat, and has picked up numerous skills from Batman such as stealth and espionage.
• Marksmanship:Jason is very good with a gun, displaying a bent for good aim.

• The All Blades: Mystical swords that Jason can summon into his hands at any time. The Blades are indestructible, and they enhance his physicals.
• Venom: Although this is really Bane's signature drug, Jason has used it on occasion, and it further enhances his stats, to a point where no human can really contend with him on the physical level (including Daredevil).
• Guns:I think that it's fair to say that Jason carries around, on average, two normal pistols.

Jason Todd mentioned that he defeated Batman when he was retelling his story back in RHATO 0 (I think it was 0 because that's when Jason was telling his origin story but I can't be sure). Batman, as nearly everyone on this site knows, is one of the most skilled fighters the DC Universe has ever seen.

And while it's true that the fight was off-panel, Jason more recently defeated (or had the clear upper hand before he decided to ease up on) Batman in Batman and Robin 20. If GhostRavage asks me to, I will post that fight here as well.

Also, this was Jason Todd without Venom, without training from the League of Assassins or the All-Caste, and without the All-Blades. The version of Todd that we're using here is far superior to this one.

The one that defeated Batman the second time did in fact have his All-Caste training, but he did not have Venom or the All Blades.

So, I'd say that because he defeated Batman not once but twice, he should be able to at least match Daredevil in hand-to-hand combat, if not outright defeat him.

While the showings with Iron Fist was impressive, I would like to question the Peter Parker feat.

For the sake of the debate, let's showcase Daredevil Special #3 to connect such agility with a relevant feat combat-wise, which in fact, i believe is going to be be better than anything you're going to showcase here, regardless, Daredevil fights Spider-Man for the second time and made him struggle to the point of making Peter question how with his super human speed and strength Daredevil was still rolling over his punches and dodging him for a prolonged time, ultimately getting beaten by Spider-Man which isn't a low end for this feat at all.

It worths to note that Daredevil actually was fast enough to incapacitate him during the same issue the first time they encountered each other. So as i said, you need to be extremely agile to fight someone like Spider-Man, albeit a young one, but fast nonetheless.

Apologies, but I feel that this is a disingenuous statement considering that the Spider in question was teenage Peter Parker, who had only been active for 5 years of comic books (which is less time in the Marvel Universe), with the issue being from 1967 while Spider-Man's first appearance being in 1962.

Let's observe what a more experienced and more serious Peter Parker can do to Matt:

Observe the lines "I can barely keep track of him" and "I still couldn't dodge". It's clear that a serious Spider-Man can dance circles around DD with his speed, thus devaluing your statement completely.

Now, allow me to present some of Todd's own feats. In particular, let's check out RHATO #8 for some pre-League of Assassins training, pre-venom, pre-all blades awesomeness.

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Here, Jason takes down a room full of mafia members, all with guns. It's important to note that in the first panel of the second scan, the art indicates that Jason was successfully able to dodge bullets in midair, without using a hax radar sense, showing his incredible speed.

In addition, previously back in RHATO #2, he did this:

Jason Todd drew his guns and shot them before two guards, who already had their guns pointed at him,could shoot him.

I believe that with these feats, Jason could handle Daredevil's speed without too many problems WITHOUT his gear. With it, he will undoubtedly be faster.

Also, (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this) I don't think that Daredevil has enhanced physicals as I've never seen any on panel feats saying so. I know he got the radar sense and with it he can detect the most subtle of motions thus allowing him to seem faster than peak human, but in actuality, Daredevil is not more than that level from what I've read. Like I said before feel free to prove me wrong.

Now, let's discuss speed with pistols and the like.

Considering i'll be making hard pressure here given the starting distance and Red Hood's pistols, let's showcase something people actually misses when showing this ability. The fact Daredevil can actually direct the bullets back to the shooter with incredible ease, means ranged attacks with your guns, as menacing as they may be, could be applied to the shooter as well, even more so considering i'm positive Jason won't be expecting anyone to ricochet gun fire like Daredevil proved during Daredevil: The Man without Fear #5 when he blatantly ricocheted the bullet back at the shooter, also, killing him...

So in fact, he could easily return the bullets back at Red Hood while also being able to dodge his gunfire and closing the distance gap and engage him in close combat, which i'm pretty sure Daredevil should be Jason's superior by a fair margin, but i'm actually really open to your POV here mate, so don't hesitate in posting the best of Red Hood, because i sure won't. Moving into the good stuff...

Daredevil has some nice showings against fodder, but has he ever ricocheted the bullets of a skilled shooter? Jason is no inexperienced street rat; he's spent years with his pistols. Check out the images below if you want some feats.

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1. He detects Nightwing (a master of stealth) sneaking up on him, and immediately draws his guns, showing speed with his draw.
2. He kicks off of Crux, and while in midair scores four direct headshots.

So I seriously doubt Matt will be able to ricochet bullets.

I'd also like to question his "dodging" bullets. Thanks to his radar sense, Daredevil is able to effectively "see" the shooter's movements, and he can figure out the bullet's path. He can sense when the trigger finger is about to fire and thus he is able to get out of the way. It's nothing more than simple aim dodging.

Meanwhile, Hood is a bona fide bullet timer with Venom.

Now, another thing I'd like to say is that while Daredevil might be able to dodge the bullets of cannon fodder, I've never seen him dodge the bullets of a skilled shooter who as their first move went for a headshot. Once again, I'm nowhere near as well versed in DD as you are so I'm open to your feats here, but I did read parts of volumes 3 and 4 of his solo series and from what I can gather he almost always has time to detect the shooter's trigger finger and prepare to get out of the way, while here Jason Todd is going to shoot him right off the bat.

I've read some of his fights with Frank Castle who is a very respectable marksman, but in nearly all of those fights there was monologuing involved, giving Daredevil the chance to get in position and anticipate.

Here, you're facing the guy that not only detected Nightwing, but his drew his gun and fired them faster than two men could pull the trigger. Showing prodigious speed, I believe that I've presented an adequate case for him being able to tag Matt.

Allow me to present Jason's biggest advantage. This is but a glimpse of what Todd can do (because we're only at introductions) but I will get into his better feats later.

Jason is able to flip Suzie Su (who said she was 600 pounds) with absolutely no effort, and later shoots her in the head. Take notes, Daredevil - you can't beat fat white mob bosses quite as easily ;)

Also, let's introduce Venom. I'll let Jason describe it for you from RHATO 36.

This is what Bane does when he's on this drug.

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He EASILY took down a lighthouse with his bare hands. A lighthouse is at least a ton or two of reinforced metal.

Jason's feats with Venom are actually even MORE impressive. But I'm not going to give them away yet, especially considering that you haven't given me any strength feats, and to my knowledge Daredevil is nothing more than peak human in strength.

So as of now, this is a clear advantage for Jason. I doubt Daredevil can take very many punches from the man who has Venom.

Now, on to the two most important traits of Daredevil.

The nerve strikes, even though i won't be showing much of his combat nerve striking feats considering i'd like to keep it mostly incognito for now to make things interesting here, let's just cite Daredevil #104where Daredevil used a nerve strike that made a guy lose his vision for a short time, which in all honesty would totally handicap Jason to the point of uselessness during the fight, if he only had Daredevil's senses...

Moreover, during Daredevil #84 he explains how he has learned several nerve strikes from his trainer Stick and from his enemies. As the panel explains, Daredevil likes to aim for the softer points, the points where it really hurts to be punched or touched which means this techniques are totally in-character for him to use, furthermore, the fact he was fighting Hammerhead, which has insane durability in his head and still managed to merely touch him in the right place of his head to put him on his knees and beg for mercy means Daredevil's senses coupled with the precision of his nerve strikes means Jason wouldn't be able to take any chance at all and if he doesn't go all out on Matt, he'll be dropped quite fast...

Jason would go all out on Matt; he always goes all out.

Daredevil has very precise nerve strikes, I'll admit that much. I've read enough Daredevil to know that his strikes can bypass high durability, but I have a question for you. Has Daredevil ever used nerve strikes on someone who has the same speed and skill as Jason Todd? He can beat up fodder all he wants, without any feats of hitting someone who is SKILLED, the nerve strikes mean nothing. In the very scan you posted with T'Challa, DD didn't use nerve strikes.

Nerve strikes take incredible precision; if the striker is even a centimeter off, the attack would fail indefinitely. Do you really think Jason is going to stand still and let Daredevil get such a precise blow off? I certainly don't. Jason is going to be pressuring Matt with his swords and pistols - Daredevil has absolutely no chance off actually getting in such a strike.

This is going to be a dodging game all the way. The All Blades can slice Daredevil in half, so if Daredevil gets hit by one, he's down for the count. In addition, with Venom, Jason could probably oneshot DD. Really his only chance is evading the guy with superior stamina forever.

I'd also like to point out that Jason was trained by Lady Shiva, who in the N52 is a master of nerve strikes. He also learned them from Batman, using them here:

You're essentially proposing that Daredevil will strike the dude with superior speed (thanks to Venom) and comparable, if not outright better, skill in a very precise location for a victory. I don't see that happening.

It worths to note, that i'm not in any way, shape or form trying to imply Daredevil would use such torturing nerve strikes in this fight, buthe'll surely will use such precision when delivering paralyzing and incapacitating nerve strikes as i'm going to forwardly address during the match... Anyways, I think it's enough for an opener, i don't want to create big walls of text nor show my strategy and wild cards before looking at what you're going to showcase here, so with everything said, i'll be waiting for your reply next week, best of luck and do not disappoint me :P

Read the underlined parts :P

With this said, let's showcase some instances where his senses were strongly demonstrated to give you a better picture of what i'm talking about. Take for example Daredevil #167 where it is explained how his senses create a 360 degrees panoramic view of the area given the fact his hearing works similar to the one of a bat, just exponentially better, this, coupled with his insane agility makes it almost impossible to tag him either with projectiles or with skill, but we'll get into that later on...

Except it isn't impossible for Daredevil to be tagged. Beings with superior speed or skill have been able to tag him. But I'll get to this later on.

Now that his hearing was superficially showcased, let's mention his tactile senses, which coupled with his insane hearing, makes Daredevil the BEST nerve striker Marvel has to offer so far. This sense was altered to the point of Daredevil instinctively locating the weakest of points of everything, even of inanimate objects like steel bars, like he proved during Daredevil #3, but for formatting and esthetics purposes, let's cite Jeph Loeb's retelling of the story during Daredevil: Yellow #3...

I'd like to point out that the all blades are indestructible, as Jason mentions when fighting a Talon back in Volume 1. This won't work on them, and the only other thing that DD could use it on is Todd's person, which I feel I have sufficiently questioned for an introduction.

These two senses are what actually makes Daredevil such a good fighter, which coupled with the aforementioned skill, insane agility and fighting smarts is going to be tough match for Red Hood, who i believe will be beaten by Matt in a very healthy majority considering the deadliness of his blows, which will be addressed later on the post. Now, even though i'm not that versed with Red Hood nor anything relating the Outlaws, let alone the Venom he's going to be using here, i think Daredevil's supreme nerve strikes and speed will suffice to prove his superiority over Red Hood, even with All Blades as well.

I'd like to reiterate my previous question: does Daredevil truly have superhuman speed? While it's true that he deflected the bullets, this can be attributed to using his radar sense to sense the movements of the trigger man's finger and calculating where the bullet was about to go. And besides, Jason has legitimately dodged bullets of an entire room of mafia members while airborne, so I believe that the Red Hood's feats are on par if Daredevil truly has enhanced speed and immutably superior if he does not.

Now, allow me to bring up some instances to demonstrate that Daredevil's senses are far from infallible, and are, in my very humble opinion, overrated.

Off the top of my head (I'll find the scan later), I remember Bullseye tagging him back in Gang War. In fact, in most of their fights, Lester has been able to tag Murdock at least once or twice, and Jason is FAR above Bullseye in H2H skill.

In addition, in the very fight you posted, Black Panther was able to tag him.

The last example I'll bring up is from Wolverine 24 (it was during that arc, sue me if I'm wrong), Wolverine was able to tag him as well.

In the last panel, Logan is able to knee Daredevil in the stomach. Now, is Matt holding back? Absolutely. BUT, according to some users on this forum, Daredevil can dance circles around even the most advanced street level characters. Even though he was holding back, he still should have been able to use his 360 degree radar sense (which you've so beautifully shown) to evade the attack. There's no excuse for him getting hit.

You haven't claimed that he can evade anything and everything, but I thought I'd dispel that notion right here and now.