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#1 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

Cole MacGrath (UndinehunterTitan):

VS

Alex Mercer (Pope052):

Scenario:

After months of creating advanced beings, Mercer had found out that they had all been killed by someone who was willing to stand up against Mercer himself. The one responsible had left a note on a body saying:

"Look up"

Just as Alex took notice, he was greeted by a lightning bolt near to his feet. It was none other than Cole MacGrath, ready to avenge the onslaught that Mercer had brought upon countless innocents.

Cole - "You ravaged people for no good reason, it is time to put an end to this".

Alex - "Whoever you may be does not interest me, you'll be consumed just like the rest".

Conditions:

Starting Distance - Opposite ends of the street seen in the photograph.

Cole:

  • End of Infamous 2 (Good Karma), Fully-Upgraded.
  • Any feats from Infamous 1 + 2, & Comics are allowed (except if they defy the Good Karma setting).
  • Cole has 3 Ionic Charges at his disposal.
  • In Character.
  • No Prep, nor Prior Knowledge.
  • Win by Death, or KO.

Alex:

  • Prototype 2 Alex, Fully-Upgraded.
  • Any feats from Prototype 1 + 2, & Comics are allowed.
  • Alex has 3 Devastators at his disposal.
  • In Character.
  • No Prep, nor Prior Knowledge.
  • Win by Death, or KO.

Battlefield - NYC (Populated):

Challenge a Viner Rules (MUST READ):

  • Votes are only counted with reason, must be unbiased, and based on the debating quality and not necessarily the character who would win in a fight.
  • Do not post irrelevant content (Music, Videos, Scans, etc).
  • Do not interfere in the debate. It is solely between us two. If you must correct us on a point or ask either of us a question, do so in a P.M.
  • As always, may the best man win.

#2 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Posted by RogueShadow (9946 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool, I'll follow this. Though I know where my initial thoughts are...

#4 Posted by Cjdavis103 (8577 posts) - - Show Bio

in a populated city oh this is going to be a nice fight

*pulls up chair and popcorn*

#5 Posted by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052:

Alright then, might be my first time doing this style of combat so I might start off slow. Here I go

Physical Abilities

Body

Cole is a fast sprinter. And as an effect from Ray Sphere, he showed visible physical improvements. He is able to sprint for a long time, being able to lift a person with one arm, and even being able to avoid getting hit by machine gun turrets during his escape on a bridge (8:24 www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaFkeW…. He is also able to pin down people to bio-leech

Parkour

Cole MacGrath has shown the capabilities to climb buildings, wall jump, climb over poles, vault, swing over metal bars under bridges, and jump across big gaps on buildings. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSG4kb… 4:00. It applies before his powers appeared

His lifting strength shows him being capable of lifting iron beams from construction sites, although for a short time only.

_ This shows Cole is capable of moving around even without using his other powers, and he'll be able to at least try get some distance between him or lead him to a better position and Cole if he ever gets chased by Alex

Melee Combat

Cole seems to have a self taught brawling method when it comes to fighting. He focuses on punches, kicks, uppercuts, back flip kicks and headbutts, using momentum to deal more damage and knock enemies away. Some of his moves do resemble capoeira alongside his recovery rolls. His physical attacks are electrically enhanced, capable of electrocuting enemies, and his attacks are shown to knock enemies away.

He can also electrocute with a touch, and destroy guns with a simple touch. Which takes the process of creating an explosion.

- Amp -

The amp is a steel weapon that allows Cole to project more electricity on beatdowns. It noticeably projects electricity inside, looks heavy, and is capable of breaking what’s, well breakable, including enemies. It’s shown to be enough to knock away enemies and juggle them. Cole uses a conjunction of slides, short hop slam, grapple swing to take down most enemies and he is skilled with this amp.

Gigawatt Blades

Amass a gigawatt of energy into your hands, and form the gigawatt blades. These things are capable of oneshotting anyone, electrifying them. Also shown to be capable of cutting off arms of a giant mutant, that feeds on neuroeletricity to survive. Dangerous ability, and it does show Cole has the casual voltage enough to produce electricity that can sear through flesh. It is also evident that Cole can control how much voltage there are in his Gigawatt Blades. He can probably form a few more things out of electricity as he's able to shape them into orbs or such.

i40.tinypic.com/30ml8co.jpg - Notice how he did so.

_By strength alone Cole loses. Badly. Against Alex. He has shown to trade blows with large mutants and damage them but his strength wouldn't be enough to go against Alex. Instead the electricity would be the one leading the charge. I don't recommend for Cole to engage Alex in a melee fight, but if he gets too close whacking Alex with an electric prod or lightning blade would be enough

Electrokinetic Abilities

Offensive Measures

Lightning Bolts

Volts (http://www.deviantart.com/users/outgoing?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSG4kb9XM7k 6:00) Cole released Kuo from her restraints with a simple attack. 20,000 volts were used on that attack, and Cole did not show any signs of fatigue. His outputs basically means its above that number by a fairly large amount if he's unfazed after using it.

Version 1- Capable of dropping civilians in one go, powering up power grids, and killing anyone on water with one hit. It is also shown that Cole has control over how much electricity he uses, evident as he does not overload generators or televisions in a couple of hits either, instead giving them the exact required energy. These bolts are also capable of shooting off from afar (across a city block, capable of shooting off enemies on top of five storey buildings), are as fast as lightning when they travel, can be shot off rapidfire and scatters electricity on conductive targets. These bolts can also electrify conductive surfaces, then Cole can drain off the increased electricity via overload.

Version 1.5 - Dubbed Missile bolts, these bolts are far travelling/high range(reaching a monster from a city block away), explodes like rockets with enough force to bust down a gate, fast, and can be constantly launched. At his peak, Cole was able to keep launching these bolts without cost of his energy

Version 2 - The bolts here are less like lightning and seemed more akin to plasma. We won't go too much about that however. These bolts can be shot off as one by one, bursts of three or five, ranged bolts, fast homing bursts something similar to the version 1 lightning bolt which seemed to have a concussive side to it. (Alpha/Pincer3/Scythe5/Artillery/Magnum bolts and Bolt stream)

Cole also replenishes energy for hitting enemies. Even slightly healing himself for headshots. Its evident that he overloads his enemy and then reabsorbs the energy let out. Cole can also trigger electric explosions by headshotting certain enemies. (Skull bolt)

[spoiler][img]i44.tinypic.com/dfdt0g.jpg[/im… Notice how his lightning bolts can bust out from an Armored Aircraft Carriers which was tasked to keep giant super strong mutants inside. This is another variation of his bolts, seemingly released as bursts now instead of actual 'bolts'.

_These bolts stun enemies hit, electrocuting them for a short time and capable of dropping them to the ground. But if shot off one after another they are lethal and can trap enemies to their death. And the constant barrage of long range and fast bolts would be enough

Megawatt Hammer/Rockets

Version 1 These rockets are able to set cars aflame and knock down most people. They fly fast and hit hard, triggering a large blast the same size as a shock grenade. They can also be redirected into a target by shooting it with a lightning bolt, which then causes them to home in on the target. It also releases a blast that affects gravity and magnetism, causing anyone hit by the blast to float helplessly. Can also be shot as a cluster. (Megawatt Hammers)

Version 2 These rockets have improved and now vary. A rocket can be fired to create a normal explosion akin to a rocket. Another one splits to three and sticks on a target after homing on it. The redirectable version is still here, just like the past rocket before Cole was weakened. Cole can also shoot out rockets when overcharged. These Tesla Missiles are capable of turning on power on some sections of the city where the power is down. The voltage is also enough to kill anything, even the greater Ice Crusher. It also scatters electricity when close to a conductive target. This missile is steered by Cole from afar, with great speed.(Alpha/Redirect/Sticky Rocket and Tesla Missile)

_ Cole can make use of these rockets against Alex. Normally these wouldn't be effective but the electric properties of the attacks should affect Alex. Cole's homing rockets (Sticky and redirect rockets) would be hard to dodge too if say Cole launches them at different points, specifically the Redirect rockets

Electromagnetic Shockwaves/Blasts

Version 1 Cole sends out something akin to a TK blast. Electricity pushed forward, the shockwave is capable of knocking away people, cars, and redirecting rockets or pulverizing energy projectiles (toxic missiles). With the large radius, additional effect of electrocuting anyone hit or sending them flying with no control over their gravity, this ability is a deadly thing that close combat people should avoid. (Electromagnetic Shockwave)

Version 2 After Cole reached New Marais, he further developed his power and was able to use them in a variety of ways. Cole can send out a swirling mass of blast that sticks on anything it hits(enemies or terrain) before exploding after a set of time. Shooting it will trigger it immediately, causing an electrical explosion that knocks away enemies, or Cole can jump on it to launch himself up. Cole also has a ranged narrower version of his blast, which can be used against enemies on rooftops. (Alpha/Detonation/Graviton/Sniper Blast)

_These shockwaves will be one of Cole's signature weapons against Alex. Not only would he be able to keep Alex away with a push, he can also counter his whipfist, thrown cars and tendril attacks.

Utility

Radar Pulse - This radar like ability allows Cole to figure out the appearance of his surroundings, mainly the buildings and electric sources. Cole can also detect potential threats through their electric wavelengths. If thats not enough, Cole can also see through bodies of people like X-ray, detect unnatural anomalies such as garbage robots, and enemies that are hiding (A conduit reaper perfectly disguised as a civilian). Cole can also keep track of his enemies' location wherever they go so long as they stay close. (Range almost a city block)

_A perfect counter against Alex's disguises, and a good way to keep track of his movements.

Lightning Tether - This move allows Cole to even move around faster. Aim at the top of the building and Cole would be there fast. Cole has already shown the capabilities to electrocute and pull enemies, allies or objects towards him. This would be a good use to get out of attacks such as a Graveyard Spike

Induction Grind and Improved Static Thrusters - The former would grant Cole a needed mobility boost, if he finds tracks and wires around. A good way to energize himself too. Cole can also glide with Static Thrusters, to get through too large gaps between buildings

Electric Drain - Cole's energy capacity isn't small. But it isn't particularly large either. But put Cole in any city and he'll be able to fight with no worries for regeneration and stamina. Being in New York City, electricity is everywhere. Civilians are also potential, as bio-leech isn't a karmic locked ability.

Stats

Reactions - Cole regularly reacts to rockets fired at him. If not enough, Cole still has his time dilation ability which improves his reactions highly. Precision was enough to make a 300 mph train move so slow in Cole's eyes. He also regularly deals with teleporters or enemies that move around him at a fast speed

Attack Speed - Cole's attacks are constantly fast. His bolts even moreso. If firing projectiles from the air, he shoots them out faster. Cole only uses one arm to attack, but already shown the capability to use two different abilities while attacking (Static Thrusters and Rockets/Blasts etc). With Cole using two arms, and the near lightning fast bolts, Cole has the attack speed advantage

Range - His range is anything he can see. A several dozen of meters would be Cole's attack range. Maybe more

I'm still new to this, but hey I look forward to this. I won't shoot off all my cars yet though. Your turn

#6 Posted by OfficialRikudouSennin (631 posts) - - Show Bio

Alex Mercer wins!

#8 Posted by Cjdavis103 (8577 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Posted by mw2noobbuster (18 posts) - - Show Bio

Well this debate died quickly.

#10 Edited by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@mw2noobbuster: My opponent is asleep right now, or at work or something, probably. I noticed that we seem to reply in different intervals so we probably have different time zones. Me being on Alberta, he's probably on the other side of the world or some other thing

Edit-Yup, I was right. He's in London, I'm on Alberta. Anyone who wants to figure out the time zone distance between us go ahead

#11 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@undinehuntertitan:

I'm back. Sorry for the wait, I was busy with something, here's my counter:

Physical Abilities

Body

Cole is a fast sprinter. And as an effect from Ray Sphere, he showed visible physical improvements. He is able to sprint for a long time, being able to lift a person with one arm, and even being able to avoid getting hit by machine gun turrets during his escape on a bridge (8:24 www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaFkeW…. He is also able to pin down people to bio-leech

This is impressive for Cole, but it is merely peak human.

Alex outpaces sniper-rifle bullets:

Dodges countless helicopter rounds:

Alex can effortlessly lift people with one-hand on a super-human level. He can use them as a weapon against enemies, or just swing them around like a rag-doll for fun:

(0:29 - 0:40)

As far as Alex's sprinting goes, his stamina is limitless and his running speed skyrockets above Cole's. A short jog for Alex would have Cole in exhaustion behind him.

Covers a considerable distance on a train-track in 22 seconds:

(1:00 - 1:22)

For that feat of Cole "dodging" the machine gun turrets, Zeke was able to do that too whilst breaking through the steel gate. So unless you think Zeke can dodge bullets, that was nothing more than lucky break for Cole.

I'm not saying that Cole can't bullet-dodge, but that instance was pure luck.

Parkour

Cole MacGrath has shown the capabilities to climb buildings, wall jump, climb over poles, vault, swing over metal bars under bridges, and jump across big gaps on buildings. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSG4kb… 4:00. It applies before his powers appeared

His lifting strength shows him being capable of lifting iron beams from construction sites, although for a short time only.

_ This shows Cole is capable of moving around even without using his other powers, and he'll be able to at least try get some distance between him or lead him to a better position and Cole if he ever gets chased by Alex

Alex can do all of that to a much higher extent.

Alex can jump higher than various buildings, run up skyscrapers, and jump from building to building effortlessly. While jumping, Alex can boost himself further, higher, and faster while in mid-air.

He even gets hit by tank shells, bullets, helicopter rounds, etc, in mid-air and can still stay up in the air:

(All seen throughout the following videos):

Alex would be constantly on Cole for the entire fight, it would be literally impossible for Cole to gain a distance unless Mercer allows him to.

Melee Combat

Cole seems to have a self taught brawling method when it comes to fighting. He focuses on punches, kicks, uppercuts, back flip kicks and headbutts, using momentum to deal more damage and knock enemies away. Some of his moves do resemble capoeira alongside his recovery rolls. His physical attacks are electrically enhanced, capable of electrocuting enemies, and his attacks are shown to knock enemies away.

He can also electrocute with a touch, and destroy guns with a simple touch. Which takes the process of creating an explosion.

Cole attempting to fight Mercer H2H/Melee would cost him his life.

Alex can one-shot regular soldiers with punches, rip through human bodies like paper, destroy cars by punching them, create shockwaves (which send cars flying into the air) by merely punching or stomping the ground, you name it. Alex doesn't even have to try against Cole if it came down to Melee combat:

- Amp -

The amp is a steel weapon that allows Cole to project more electricity on beatdowns. It noticeably projects electricity inside, looks heavy, and is capable of breaking what’s, well breakable, including enemies. It’s shown to be enough to knock away enemies and juggle them. Cole uses a conjunction of slides, short hop slam, grapple swing to take down most enemies and he is skilled with this amp.

Cole's amp would be easily countered by Alex's shield (if he even needed it) It has deflected all forms of military fire-power, sent people/cars flying back by simply running towards them. Even if Cole did manage to break it, Alex can simply reform it with his own bio-mass:

(Quotes taken from the Wiki):

Shield:

The Shield blocks all incoming frontal projectile fire, or all-round melee attacks, until its damage threshold is reached, at which point it will shatter and require time to regenerate before it can be deployed again. Alex will also incur some damage when his shield breaks from whatever cause. It regenerates and becomes available again automatically.

Alex's shield would easily keep him safe from Cole's basic attacks, so he has nothing to worry about in those cases. His own durability should keep him safe as it is, but the shield widens the gap.

Gigawatt Blades

Amass a gigawatt of energy into your hands, and form the gigawatt blades. These things are capable of oneshotting anyone, electrifying them. Also shown to be capable of cutting off arms of a giant mutant, that feeds on neuroeletricity to survive. Dangerous ability, and it does show Cole has the casual voltage enough to produce electricity that can sear through flesh. It is also evident that Cole can control how much voltage there are in his Gigawatt Blades. He can probably form a few more things out of electricity as he's able to shape them into orbs or such.

i40.tinypic.com/30ml8co.jpg - Notice how he did so.

This is impressive, it is definitely something that Alex needs to worry about. Which is why i'll bring up this:

Armor:

Alex's armor increases his overall damage soak. If his raw durability isn't enough to take hits from Cole, the armor should be a strong factor going for him in this fight.

(Quotes taken from the Wiki):

The Armor provides an alternative to the Shield. Unlike the Shield, which completely negates minor frontal damage at the cost of having a temporarily finite ability to absorb punishment, the Armor significantly reduces all-round damage taken by Alex without losing effectiveness.

Even though it cannot deflect stray bullets like the shield, it is still ideal for close combat, allowing Alex to go toe to toe with the strongest foes without quickly succumbing to large amounts of damage. Conversely, running from a fight is somewhat more difficult, and Alex's ability to dodge attacks is hampered.

The Armor is very effective against fighting powerful enemies because it never breaks, but it does not completely negate damage like the shield, instead reducing it to a fraction of what he would normally experience. While using the armor power, it can clear a path through enemies and vehicles. Alex cannot glide, diveroll, and perform parkour maneuvers but can use airdash and air recovery.

So even though Alex's speed is decreased, he is still faster than Cole. Whilst taking the hits from Cole's Gigawatt Blades, the Amor is a huge aid to him in close combat scenario if Cole used the Blades. If it still wasn't enough, then Alex can add in the shield as well.

Lightning Bolts

While Cole's lightning is impressive, there area few flaws contained in what you posted for his offensive measures:

  • His only attack that is lightning speed is his Lightning Storm, his basic bolts are not.
  • Precision is nice, but Cole still has trouble tagging fast moving opponents (Ice-Men). Not to mention it drains Cole's electricity storage like a b!tch, so he'd need to recharge.

The destructive output of Cole's basic attacks is not even remotely enough to harm Alex. I know they contain electrical properties and what not, but they need the destructive output to even think of harming Mercer, which they lack.

Cole requires several bolts to put down a regular militia soldier. The speed of his basic attacks should be easily avoidable by Alex, and Alex has plenty of extra defense at his disposal if Cole's basic attacks did pose a threat.

It that still wasn't enough, add in Alex's regeneration and he is completely covered. Which reminds me..

Healing Factor:

(Quote taken from Wiki):

Healing Factor: Alex's body has vast powers of self-regeneration. So long as he is properly nourished, Alex can restore his health and heal any wounds within moments. He can heal a small amount of his health even without consuming any creature. Examples include regenerating bullet wounds instantly after being shot, regenerating a massive hole in his face after being shot point-blank by General Randall, and reconstructing his entire physical form from non-descript piles of biomass and the biomass of a crow within minutes of being blown apart by a nuclear explosion. Alex also seems to have a robust immune system. Though unable to counter a parasite which had been introduced into his body without outside help, he gained a growing immunity to bloodtox with repeat exposure.

Alex clearly has the durability, defense, and regenerative abilities to counter Cole's basic forms of offense. Even if he didn't, his speed and reflexes are enough to avoid the attacks.

Megawatt Hammer/Rockets

No doubt that these could possibly threaten Alex's raw durability. However, the speed of the rockets are notably slow compared to his lightning bolts. They pose no threat of tagging Alex whatsoever.

As for the redirect rockets, Alex could either cancel them out with his shield or stand in-front of a building and jump at the last second.

Electromagnetic Shockwaves/Blasts

These can blow Alex away no doubt. I know that these can keep Cole safe from Alex. But that's it, all that they can do is keep him safe. They will not harm Alex.

Even so, Alex can boost himself after being hit by blasts such as these in mid-air. So Cole would have to keep spamming these, but then he'd run out of energy. Alex would shrug them off and then kill Cole while he is recharging. And yes, he is fast enough to do this.

Utility

The only real factor worth taking into consideration in terms of utility is his radar pulse, but the only real effect this would have is if Alex decided to disguise himself. But I don't see why he would need to do so in the first place.

As for the bio-leech, while I know it isn't Karma locked, it is still out of character, so therefore it is not permitted. But even if it was, he couldn't put Alex down to do it in the first place. Even if he managed to do just that, Alex would consume Cole before Cole's hand reached his face, because Alex can consume in less than a second:

#12 Edited by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052:

As a newbie here I cannot use the proper way to post in a CAV. But this'll do

As far as Alex's sprinting goes, his stamina is limitless and his running speed skyrockets above Cole's. A short jog for Alex would have Cole in exhaustion behind him.

Covers a considerable distance on a train-track in 22 seconds:

That's the same speed distance as Cole on Induction Grind. Mute the sound if you want 8:55

For that feat of Cole "dodging" the machine gun turrets, Zeke was able to do that too whilst breaking through the steel gate. So unless you think Zeke can dodge bullets, that was nothing more than lucky break for Cole.

I'm not saying that Cole can't bullet-dodge, but that instance was pure luck.

Maybe so, but later on Cole still showcases the ability to run past turret fire.

Alex can do all of that to a much higher extent.

Alex can jump higher than various buildings, run up skyscrapers, and jump from building to building effortlessly. While jumping, Alex can boost himself further, higher, and faster while in mid-air.

He even gets hit by tank shells, bullets, helicopter rounds, etc, in mid-air and can still stay up in the air:

Sore wa Chigau yo!/That's wrong!

Alex in midair can do the parkour and run up buildings. He can glide and air dash at a maximum limit of three times seemingly by ejecting blood out of him. However Alex if ever hit by a tank shell or helicopter rocket in midair will get struck down, making him free fall. He can still recover but by then he would've fallen a good distance

Cole attempting to fight Mercer H2H/Melee would cost him his life.

Alex can one-shot regular soldiers with punches, rip through human bodies like paper, destroy cars by punching them, create shockwaves (which send cars flying into the air) by merely punching or stomping the ground, you name it. Alex doesn't even have to try against Cole if it came down to Melee combat:

As I said, Cole should only resort to electric melee if he gets grabbed. With a simple taser rod's effects on Alex, electric melee should be enough to lock him up and make him release Cole 1:05

Cole's amp would be easily countered by Alex's shield (if he even needed it) It has deflected all forms of military fire-power, sent people/cars flying back by simply running towards them. Even if Cole did manage to break it, Alex can simply reform it with his own bio-mass:

Cole's electricity will get through Alex's shield due to the properties of Alex's shield. His ability stems on biomass, and biomass is conductive. Blocking a lightning rod with a biomass shield is like blocking a taser with a detached arm you're holding. It can block direct impact types of attack (such as explosions and bullets due to kinetic energy) but electricity will get through this meaty iron hard shield

Shield:

The Shield blocks all incoming frontal projectile fire, or all-round melee attacks, until its damage threshold is reached, at which point it will shatter and require time to regenerate before it can be deployed again. Alex will also incur some damage when his shield breaks from whatever cause. It regenerates and becomes available again automatically.

The shield does get destroyed, in three hits from explosions one after another. Also, when impact it forces Alex to hunker down to block the force. It does not instantly regenerate and requires time to be used. 1:15 of above video

Alex's armor increases his overall damage soak. If his raw durability isn't enough to take hits from Cole, the armor should be a strong factor going for him in this fight.

The Armor provides an alternative to the Shield. Unlike the Shield, which completely negates minor frontal damage at the cost of having a temporarily finite ability to absorb punishment, the Armor significantly reduces all-round damage taken by Alex without losing effectiveness.

Even though it cannot deflect stray bullets like the shield, it is still ideal for close combat, allowing Alex to go toe to toe with the strongest foes without quickly succumbing to large amounts of damage. Conversely, running from a fight is somewhat more difficult, and Alex's ability to dodge attacks is hampered.

The Armor is very effective against fighting powerful enemies because it never breaks, but it does not completely negate damage like the shield, instead reducing it to a fraction of what he would normally experience. While using the armor power, it can clear a path through enemies and vehicles. Alex cannot glide, diveroll, and perform parkour maneuvers but can use airdash and air recovery.

The armor is still made out of meat and yet still showed cases of resistance to electricity. It also making Alex less able to dodge leave him vulnerable to homing rockets and shockwaves. Alex is also still shown to be knocked around by explosions or blunt attacks when in armored form.

4:05. The homing rockets coming in from all directions would be a problem. And Cole's bolts are still here to energize.

While Cole's lightning is impressive, there area few flaws contained in what you posted for his offensive measures:

  • His only attack that is lightning speed is his Lightning Storm, his basic bolts are not.
  • Precision is nice, but Cole still has trouble tagging fast moving opponents (Ice-Men). Not to mention it drains Cole's electricity storage like a b!tch, so he'd need to recharge.

The destructive output of Cole's basic attacks is not even remotely enough to harm Alex. I know they contain electrical properties and what not, but they need the destructive output to even think of harming Mercer, which they lack.

Cole requires several bolts to put down a regular militia soldier. The speed of his basic attacks should be easily avoidable by Alex, and Alex has plenty of extra defense at his disposal if Cole's basic attacks did pose a threat.

It that still wasn't enough, add in Alex's regeneration and he is completely covered. Which reminds me..

Gameplay Mechanics would be my counter for precision. Because if one can point your hand and shoot out lightning without recoil at anything you see, I seriously think you're going to have a good aim. Precision also only slowly drains, and with abundance of energy Cole will have time, after pushing away Alex and knocking him off

0:50. If it needs any more clearing, Cole's bolts are clearly near instant speed. Faster than bullets, and firing at a faster rate than a sniper rifle bullet. Cole's bolts would tag Alex. This virus won't be dodging those

Healing Factor: Alex's body has vast powers of self-regeneration. So long as he is properly nourished, Alex can restore his health and heal any wounds within moments. He can heal a small amount of his health even without consuming any creature. Examples include regenerating bullet wounds instantly after being shot, regenerating a massive hole in his face after being shot point-blank by General Randall, and reconstructing his entire physical form from non-descript piles of biomass and the biomass of a crow within minutes of being blown apart by a nuclear explosion. Alex also seems to have a robust immune system. Though unable to counter a parasite which had been introduced into his body without outside help, he gained a growing immunity to bloodtox with repeat exposure.

Bullet wounds are regenerated to make it look his body is healed. However it shows that he requires biomass for reconstruction and he needs to 'rest' and not be hurt in order to start regenerating. Cole's bolts which will electrify all of Alex's body and be cancelling his regeneration.

No doubt that these could possibly threaten Alex's raw durability. However, the speed of the rockets are notably slow compared to his lightning bolts. They pose no threat of tagging Alex whatsoever.

As for the redirect rockets, Alex could either cancel them out with his shield or stand in-front of a building and jump at the last second.

0:08

Those rockets, if ever launched as pairs heading off to different directions and from the sky, would be a greater threat to Alex when Cole hits him with a bolt, or hit the ground he's heading to with a bolt.

These can blow Alex away no doubt. I know that these can keep Cole safe from Alex. But that's it, all that they can do is keep him safe. They will not harm Alex.

Even so, Alex can boost himself after being hit by blasts such as these in mid-air. So Cole would have to keep spamming these, but then he'd run out of energy. Alex would shrug them off and then kill Cole while he is recharging. And yes, he is fast enough to do this.

The electric properties of the shockwave would be enough to deal damage to Alex. Not to mention the anti-gravity effect would leave Alex hanging around, vulnerable to rockets and bolts. Not only ensures Cole safety, allows him to get away or spam his rockets or drain some energy, or a combination of any sorts.

The anti-gravity effect which still encases the opponents would ensure that Alex won't do such thing. And that's not including the fact that its still an electric attack that he hadn't learn to adapt to

The only real factor worth taking into consideration in terms of utility is his radar pulse, but the only real effect this would have is if Alex decided to disguise himself. But I don't see why he would need to do so in the first place.

As for the bio-leech, while I know it isn't Karma locked, it is still out of character, so therefore it is not permitted. But even if it was, he couldn't put Alex down to do it in the first place. Even if he managed to do just that, Alex would consume Cole before Cole's hand reached his face, because Alex can consume in less than a second:

The others are worth their well. Radar Pulse would allow Cole to keep a good track of wherever Alex is heading.

I firmly believe that bio-leech is still a potential good karma ability. Then again, Cole won't need it.

Alex's resistance to electricity

If you would argue that the Cross fight was just PIS, then here's still a statement. How does Alex interact with electricity? He never shown the ability to overcome it. And if he can, tell it. Electricity courses through the body, at least Cole's version, and his bolts are enough to power up substations. There's also the heat factor.

Now my argument how Alex can be affected is because of his web of intrigue

This showcases that Alex has nerves to think of even as a virus. When he has headaches from being told of the past, this also applies.

Alex is also, deep down under that strong hard armor, is a pile of flesh. A blob of meat that was moving like liquid biomass and almost dead. Even with all the hard armor and shield, Cole's electricity would go through those meaty defenses and would fry them.

For the finisher and counter finishers.

I'll start off with Ionic Vortex.

First off its a large scale attack. Its an electric tornado that would pull everything around it into it, at the same time electrifying anything it catches. It is near instantly used and can be used if Alex is close enough or far. Cole can still attack after having summoned this hurricane, so he can still attack Alex while this happens.

It is also a good counter for Tendril Devastator, which will rip apart the tendrils. A good counter for that devastator

Limitation - Buildings. As a hurricane that pulls up cars and electrifying them, it should be capable of ripping off houses' roofs and forcing them to break.

And the great mother of all, the Lightning Storm

This lightning storm can be used instantly. Charge up for 1 second, is called down as fast as lightning. It can be shot off at any direction, look at second image to see how accurate the lightning storm was. It can attack enemies from afar, or be steered as a lightning storm that will ravage those whats in front.

This lightning storm has enough force and energy to rip a hole in an armored aircraft carrier, and split (at least we saw it split before light covers everything) an electricity draining mutant that had been stomping the military lately. It would be enough to end Alex. Why?

Refuting Alex's nuke survival

Alex was something more of a 'respawner'. It didn't matter how much damage he takes, as long as a piece of him survives, he'll be regenerating into a body soon. But that would take a long time. Good thing that crow landed on him.

Secondly, Alex was trying to get away from a nuclear bomb after dropping it into the ocean. It was underwater when it detonated, and Alex almost escaped the blast zone in his chopper. He was turned into a blob of flesh, and surely that's enough to tell one that Alex has a damage limit and that counts as a KO.

Restatement!

Cole MacGrath's advantages that matches Alex's!

Attack Range >> Close combat Maser (Although Alex can fight off in ranged too, his bullets would be turned to energy, projectiles and whipfist can be sent back, in the end he's a close combat master. Cole's range is almost a city block. He'll be keeping Alex away too.)

Attack Speed >> Movement Speed (Although Alex can dodge fast, evident by sniper bullet feat, but Cole's attacks simply are faster. His attacks are near instant or can be shot off as homing, or wide range)

By the way, if you post that picture of dodging a bullet Alex might get an update on a certain OBD to make him fare better.

Attack Effects >> Regeneration, Movement Speed (Cole's attacks have the tendency to... electrocute and stun enemies. His combos include, repeated zapping of an enemy and trapping them in an infinite combo, repeated continuous shockwaves then drain, rockets to the sky and shoot bolts at Alex.

Cole's bolts also recharge Cole whenever he hits an enemy. And since it traps enemies by making them spasm while frying, and Alex's regeneration would be cancelled, this loop would continue forever.)

Drain regeneration and Durability << Attack Damage (Alex kills Cole in one hit. Maybe two. Maybe more if he stands away and waits for Cole to drain electricity to heal himself. Still, Alex oneshots Cole 'if' he ever gets close)

#14 Posted by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I hate how that happens. That's why I usually just write down my work on office word before pasting it here and getting it organized

Just take your time

#15 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@undinehuntertitan:

Alright, I have it. Finally, let's go:

That's the same speed distance as Cole on Induction Grind. Mute the sound if you want 8:55

Judging from that video, Alex's running speed looked considerably faster than Cole's grinding speed. Not to mention that Alex covered a greater distance than what Cole had covered.

Sore wa Chigau yo!/That's wrong!

Alex in midair can do the parkour and run up buildings. He can glide and air dash at a maximum limit of three times seemingly by ejecting blood out of him. However Alex if ever hit by a tank shell or helicopter rocket in midair will get struck down, making him free fall. He can still recover but by then he would've fallen a good distance

Actually, it's not wrong.

Here, you can clearly see Alex take a direct hit from a tank shell and he is still able to stay in mid-air:

(0:03 - 0:08)

Also now that I think of it, here's a nice instance. Alex launches himself into the air, but he isn't high enough to reach the chopper. He then cannon-balls and still misses, but even then he is able to stay in mid-air, and use the blade to slice through the chopper:

(1:06 - 1:18)

As I said, Cole should only resort to electric melee if he gets grabbed. With a simple taser rod's effects on Alex, electric melee should be enough to lock him up and make him release Cole 1:05

The Cross Battle was PIS. The game held you back ridiculously just to make it a challenge. When in reality, Alex would have one-shotted Cross if they fought. The supposed weakness to the lightning rod was a plot device in order for Cross to nullify Alex's shape-shifting abilities.

Even if Alex was truly that weak to electricity, he would have taken notice of his weakness and therefore avoid any contact with it in the future. It's like playing with fire, once you realize it is dangerous, you stop playing with it. And if you ever had to work with it, you would be cautious.

Cole's electricity will get through Alex's shield due to the properties of Alex's shield. His ability stems on biomass, and biomass is conductive. Blocking a lightning rod with a biomass shield is like blocking a taser with a detached arm you're holding. It can block direct impact types of attack (such as explosions and bullets due to kinetic energy) but electricity will get through this meaty iron hard shield

Cole's electricity wouldn't get past Alex's shield. It has tanked much worse attacks in the past. I acknowledge your point on the electrical properties being somewhat effective against Alex, but even still that is merely theory and conjecture.

You would need to prove that Cole's attacks have enough destructive output to harm Mercer, because regular bolts can't even kill civilians on the spot. So the electrical property clearly doesn't apply the way you think it does.

For Example: Adamantium (Cole's electricity) itself can cut (electrocute) through Superman (Alex), but Wolverine (Cole) lacks the sufficient force (destructive output) in order to get through Superman's (Alex's) durability.

The shield does get destroyed, in three hits from explosions one after another. Also, when impact it forces Alex to hunker down to block the force. It does not instantly regenerate and requires time to be used. 1:15 of above video

I know it does, but Cole isn't destroying it unless he completely spams Alex with grenades/rockets. But then he'd have to recharge, giving Alex time to kill him.

The armor is still made out of meat and yet still showed cases of resistance to electricity. It also making Alex less able to dodge leave him vulnerable to homing rockets and shockwaves. Alex is also still shown to be knocked around by explosions or blunt attacks when in armored form.

Even with reduced mobility, Alex is still faster than Cole. He can still jump higher and move overall better. Sure Alex can get knocked down by explosions, but the overall damage that Alex receives is little.

4:05. The homing rockets coming in from all directions would be a problem. And Cole's bolts are still here to energize.

In that video Alex was getting hit by rockets, while fighting off a Hunter Pack Leader (who can casually smash through tanks). I didn't see Alex have any problems there, unless i'm missing something.

Gameplay Mechanics would be my counter for precision. Because if one can point your hand and shoot out lightning without recoil at anything you see, I seriously think you're going to have a good aim. Precision also only slowly drains, and with abundance of energy Cole will have time, after pushing away Alex and knocking him off

Cole still has trouble tagging opponents who can leap (Ice-Soldiers) with precision. Alex can jump leagues faster, higher, further, and better than any enemy Cole has had trouble with.

0:50. If it needs any more clearing, Cole's bolts are clearly near instant speed. Faster than bullets, and firing at a faster rate than a sniper rifle bullet. Cole's bolts would tag Alex. This virus won't be dodging those

They're nowhere near instant speed. They're around bullet speed or slightly faster. Alex was outpacing pinpoint sniper-rifle bullets like nothing. His bolts are nothing new to what Alex has dodged.

Bullet wounds are regenerated to make it look his body is healed. However it shows that he requires biomass for reconstruction and he needs to 'rest' and not be hurt in order to start regenerating. Cole's bolts which will electrify all of Alex's body and be cancelling his regeneration.

They wouldn't cancel his regenerative abilities at all, I don't know where that idea is coming from. Anyway, even if Alex took damage from Cole's bolts (which he wouldn't), he could just run off and go on a consuming spree. Cole isn't fast enough to keep up with him at all, and Alex would be out of Cole's radar pulse once he gains a block-distance away.

0:08

Those rockets, if ever launched as pairs heading off to different directions and from the sky, would be a greater threat to Alex when Cole hits him with a bolt, or hit the ground he's heading to with a bolt.

They didn't go into separate directions. They all came down the same way, vertically. They take a good five seconds to land, which is enough time for Alex to lunge at Cole before he can shoot him. Even if the rockets came down afterwards, Cole would be dead, and Alex would consume his body.

The electric properties of the shockwave would be enough to deal damage to Alex. Not to mention the anti-gravity effect would leave Alex hanging around, vulnerable to rockets and bolts. Not only ensures Cole safety, allows him to get away or spam his rockets or drain some energy, or a combination of any sorts.

The anti-gravity effect which still encases the opponents would ensure that Alex won't do such thing. And that's not including the fact that its still an electric attack that he hadn't learn to adapt to

It isn't as safe for Cole as you think. It merely slows down the amount of time it takes for them to fall down, only slightly slowed down too. Alex would just boost himself out of the effect and go for Cole.

The Graviton Blast has only worked on low tier enemies (such as militia, regular ice-soldiers and swamp monsters), but it is useless against tougher/heavier opponents. Alex is very heavy (landing on concrete can be devastating), so at best it would push him back.

The others are worth their well. Radar Pulse would allow Cole to keep a good track of wherever Alex is heading.

I firmly believe that bio-leech is still a potential good karma ability. Then again, Cole won't need it.

  • Radar Pulse is limited to a block radius. Once Alex gets beyond that distance (fairly quickly too), Cole cannot track him without physically seeing him.
  • The Bio-Leech adds on +1 Evil Karma point for every use. So no, you can't count it as a Good Karma ability. And yes, Cole would need it. Even with it, he can't pin Mercer into position.

Alex's resistance to electricity

If you would argue that the Cross fight was just PIS, then here's still a statement. How does Alex interact with electricity? He never shown the ability to overcome it. And if he can, tell it. Electricity courses through the body, at least Cole's version, and his bolts are enough to power up substations. There's also the heat factor.

Now my argument how Alex can be affected is because of his web of intrigue

This showcases that Alex has nerves to think of even as a virus. When he has headaches from being told of the past, this also applies.

Alex is also, deep down under that strong hard armor, is a pile of flesh. A blob of meat that was moving like liquid biomass and almost dead. Even with all the hard armor and shield, Cole's electricity would go through those meaty defenses and would fry them.

Like I said, the electricity properties in Cole's attacks are useless unless there is sufficient output behind them in order to affect Alex's durability.

Also, Alex is far more than a blob of meat. He does not possess the same weaknesses as other viruses do. Alex Mercer himself is dead, his memories were reactivated by the virus hosting on his body.

The virus itself is biologically immortal. The only way it can truly be destroyed is via Blood-Tox gas, or if it is possibly incinerated down to every yoctogram of it. Cole has neither the gas, nor the precision to destroy it.

For the finisher and counter finishers.

I'll start off with Ionic Vortex.

First off its a large scale attack. Its an electric tornado that would pull everything around it into it, at the same time electrifying anything it catches. It is near instantly used and can be used if Alex is close enough or far. Cole can still attack after having summoned this hurricane, so he can still attack Alex while this happens.

It is also a good counter for Tendril Devastator, which will rip apart the tendrils. A good counter for that devastator

Limitation - Buildings. As a hurricane that pulls up cars and electrifying them, it should be capable of ripping off houses' roofs and forcing them to break.

While this is impressive, it certainly wouldn't kill Alex. When Alex fought Elizabeth Greene, she released an attack that covered a radius a lot bigger than the Ionic Vortex.

It destroyed everything within the radius, yet not Alex. He could dodge this attack with little effort. When it connected, it did however deplete a lot of Alex's health, but he could still move around like normal, consume people and then come back for more:

The Ionic Vortex hasn't displayed much different, it destroys only everything in it's line of path, where as Elizabeth's attack destroyed everything circling her radius. The vortex isn't something Alex hasn't already dealt with and overcome. It isn't going to put down Alex, especially if he's in armored form.

And the great mother of all, the Lightning Storm

This lightning storm can be used instantly. Charge up for 1 second, is called down as fast as lightning. It can be shot off at any direction, look at second image to see how accurate the lightning storm was. It can attack enemies from afar, or be steered as a lightning storm that will ravage those whats in front.

This lightning storm has enough force and energy to rip a hole in an armored aircraft carrier, and split (at least we saw it split before light covers everything) an electricity draining mutant that had been stomping the military lately. It would be enough to end Alex. Why?

This is something that Alex's base needs to worry about. However, if Alex has his armor and shield active, he will certainly soak most of the power output coming from the storm. The armored form reduces most of the damage that Alex takes, so it would certainly be a strong factor going for him here:

Refuting Alex's nuke survival

Alex was something more of a 'respawner'. It didn't matter how much damage he takes, as long as a piece of him survives, he'll be regenerating into a body soon. But that would take a long time. Good thing that crow landed on him.

Secondly, Alex was trying to get away from a nuclear bomb after dropping it into the ocean. It was underwater when it detonated, and Alex almost escaped the blast zone in his chopper. He was turned into a blob of flesh, and surely that's enough to tell one that Alex has a damage limit and that counts as a KO.

I know that Alex needed to consume a crow in order to regenerate faster, but the fact that he could still reform after taking nuclear level force. It goes to show a lot, nothing in Infamous can come close to doing even remotely close damage to Mercer as the nuke did (the exception being the Beast, but that is a mismatch).

Cole MacGrath's advantages that matches Alex's!

Attack Range >> Close combat Maser (Although Alex can fight off in ranged too, his bullets would be turned to energy, projectiles and whipfist can be sent back, in the end he's a close combat master. Cole's range is almost a city block. He'll be keeping Alex away too.)

Attack Speed >> Movement Speed (Although Alex can dodge fast, evident by sniper bullet feat, but Cole's attacks simply are faster. His attacks are near instant or can be shot off as homing, or wide range)

By the way, if you post that picture of dodging a bullet Alex might get an update on a certain OBD to make him fare better.

Attack Effects >> Regeneration, Movement Speed (Cole's attacks have the tendency to... electrocute and stun enemies. His combos include, repeated zapping of an enemy and trapping them in an infinite combo, repeated continuous shockwaves then drain, rockets to the sky and shoot bolts at Alex.

Cole's bolts also recharge Cole whenever he hits an enemy. And since it traps enemies by making them spasm while frying, and Alex's regeneration would be cancelled, this loop would continue forever.)

Drain regeneration and Durability << Attack Damage (Alex kills Cole in one hit. Maybe two. Maybe more if he stands away and waits for Cole to drain electricity to heal himself. Still, Alex oneshots Cole 'if' he ever gets close)

  • Cole wouldn't be able to keep Alex from getting close, not at all. His blasts wouldn't be strong enough to knock Alex off of his feet, but even if they were, Alex would just boost himself closer while in mid-air.
  • Actually no, Alex has the combat speed advantage. His reflexes, jumping and mobility speed is too much for Cole to handle at once without going all out. Alex has the advantage in combat speed as well as travel speed.
  • Cole's combos don't apply the same to Mercer. They only affect enemies of a lower-tier, they would do jack to Alex.
  • It wouldn't cancel his regeneration at all, they lack the sufficient output to plunge a hole in Alex's durability. Like I said, electrical properties don't mean anything if they lack the destructive force behind them.
  • I don't get what you mean.

Now, i'll go into detail on more of Alex's abilities:

Blade:

"A powerful and deadly cutting and thrusting weapon, perfect for slicing and swiping through even the toughest armored vehicles or infected hides. "

The Blade would cut MacGrath like paper. It destroys military tanks in a few slices, an air-slice will one-shot a helicopter, and so on. It make the Gigawatt Blades look like child's play:

Hammer-Fists:

"Trade speed for power—shift biomass to your forearms to allow deadly area-effect attacks, crush guarding enemies, and shatter armored vehicles. Hammerfist delivers the pain."

And that's without the upgrades, the upgrades include:

Elbow Slam:

"Jump up, drop down. Deadly against armor. Add extra height to increase your damage and area of effect. With the right conditions, you can crack an enemy Tank with a single blow."

Hammer-Toss:

"Sprint into a self-throw and put all your weight into a single, concentrated attack. The Hammertoss is dangerous when you miss—and deadly when you hit."

Whip-Fist:

"The Whipfist is a thin, flexible, blade-edged arm that can be used to attack at extreme range, or whip through entire crowds of enemies. Tame your foes from a safe distance."

This is a strong factor going for Alex in a ranged-battle. It is fast enough to grab Cole before he can react, and then it will pull Cole towards Alex and the slaughtering would commence.

Muscle-Mass:

Musclemass increases Alex's melee damage twofold and increases the speed at which he strikes. At its base level, a charged attack will turn any human enemy it strikes into bloody chunks; once upgraded, even a glancing blow will cause this. Objects thrown with Musclemass will hit harder, fly further, and move faster than objects thrown at Alex's normal strength; upgrades will augment the distance.

It doubles Alex's strength. Meaning that he would be able to fling cars at Cole like pebble-stones, considering that Alex was able to effortlessly toss a tank with one-hand:

And last but not least..

Claws:

"Transform your hands into deadly edged weapons; slice and dice for up-close crowd control."

And not to mention, Alex would create ground-spikes emerging from the ground with a simply smash to the ground with his shape-shifted fist:

And we haven't even gotten to the Devastators yet:

Tendril-Barrage Devastator:

The Tendril Barrage causes spikes made of hard, fibrous tissue to erupt from Alex's and Heller's body in every direction, impaling everything around them for a fair distance. It will wipe out entire crowds of civilians and can cause extreme damage to Hunters and Super Soldiers. Even the larger Leader Hunters will take a fair amount of damage.

This can also be used in the air:

Ground-Spike Graveyard Devastator:

The Groundspike Graveyard is similar to the Groundspike power granted by the Claws. When used, it causes massive spikes of biomass to erupt from the ground, creating a deadly circle of spikes in close proximity to Alex. It is highly effective against hardened targets like Armor and buildings.

This can also be used in the air:

Critical-Pain Devastator:

Critical Pain fires a hard mass of biomass tissue from Alex's hands to crush a single target. It is the single most damaging move in the entire game, but can only be used to hit a single target. Anything that happens to be between Alex and the target will also be affected by the area air pressure caused from it.

Its power is such that, short of bosses and buildings, there is nothing that will survive this attack can only take one or more than two hits. The air version suspends has Alex in the air at any level while executing the Devastator.

This can also be used in the air:

So clearly, Cole would have to be avoiding every single one of Alex's attacks in order to stay alive in the fight. Even simply punches and kicks from Alex would be fatal to Cole. Now let's be honest, Cole is getting tagged, and all it takes is one hit and he's down, out of it completely.

#16 Edited by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

Judging from that video, Alex's running speed looked considerably faster than Cole's grinding speed. Not to mention that Alex covered a greater distance than what Cole had covered.

Actually, it's not wrong.

Here, you can clearly see Alex take a direct hit from a tank shell and he is still able to stay in mid-air:

Yes, that's with the regular explosions. Cole's explosions are given a bit more jolt or stunning properties

The Cross Battle was PIS. The game held you back ridiculously just to make it a challenge. When in reality, Alex would have one-shotted Cross if they fought. The supposed weakness to the lightning rod was a plot device in order for Cross to nullify Alex's shape-shifting abilities.

Even if Alex was truly that weak to electricity, he would have taken notice of his weakness and therefore avoid any contact with it in the future. It's like playing with fire, once you realize it is dangerous, you stop playing with it. And if you ever had to work with it, you would be cautious.

And here's the PIS part in mine. If Cole can power up substations with just a couple of lightning bolts, break through armored carriers, roast cars, then its evident that the game did it to make it challenging. If you read the comic scans, he downs people in one or two hits, but in the game he's just downplayed. Besides, I think its perfectly possible for Cross to dodge his groundspikes and whipfist when Alex always does those poses to use them.

How does one prepare for electricity when it is fast or homing? How does one become cautioned by it? That's all I'm asking. Alex doesn't have prep time so he won't have time to prepare. How will he work with electricity when his whole body is 'naked' to the electricity?

Cole's electricity wouldn't get past Alex's shield. It has tanked much worse attacks in the past. I acknowledge your point on the electrical properties being somewhat effective against Alex, but even still that is merely theory and conjecture.

You would need to prove that Cole's attacks have enough destructive output to harm Mercer, because regular bolts can't even kill civilians on the spot. So the electrical property clearly doesn't apply the way you think it does.

For Example: Adamantium (Cole's electricity) itself can cut (electrocute) through Superman (Alex), but Wolverine (Cole) lacks the sufficient force (destructive output) in order to get through Superman's (Alex's) durability.

Up there in my armored aircraft carrier picture. And the power grid. Not killing civilians and enemies in one hit? Gameplay challenge, or Cole can control the amount of electricity in his hands. Makes sense since the tv doesn't overload. If Cole can control the currents of his attacks (since his lightning storm wasn't being sucked into lightning rods even in the city) then Cole can oneshot everyone by hitting them and making the electricity go through the brain or heart. Alex still has nerve systems via Web of Intrigue.

Your argument against cole attacks stems on Alex being able to shrug off electricity or block it. He can't. He manipulates biomass, and will get affected by electricity. As I said, wrapping around corpses around you and blocking with a shield made out of meat (with really hard flesh) will help you block Kinetic Energy but it will not block Pure energy such as Cole's electric attacks, due to its properties. Its not a theory, its simple fact. Alex is made out of flesh, his shield is made out of iron hard flesh and so is his armor. And they're conductive.

Flesh Armor. Taser vs Dead body shield you're holding. Look up for voltage

In that video Alex was getting hit by rockets, while fighting off a Hunter Pack Leader (who can casually smash through tanks). I didn't see Alex have any problems there, unless i'm missing something.

He was getting knocked around too by the blunt attacks before getting back up. Even by explosions he's getting knocked away. Cole will be knocking him around with his rockets.

Cole still has trouble tagging opponents who can leap (Ice-Soldiers) with precision. Alex can jump leagues faster, higher, further, and better than any enemy Cole has had trouble with.

They're nowhere near instant speed. They're around bullet speed or slightly faster. Alex was outpacing pinpoint sniper-rifle bullets like nothing. His bolts are nothing new to what Alex has dodged.

They are. Sides, Alex gets hit by bullets most of the time. Its just that he doesn't take much damage from it. And the closer Alex gets, the closer he gets to also getting stunned by due to Cole getting higher precision from coming too close. Oh and the shockwave too

They wouldn't cancel his regenerative abilities at all, I don't know where that idea is coming from. Anyway, even if Alex took damage from Cole's bolts (which he wouldn't), he could just run off and go on a consuming spree. Cole isn't fast enough to keep up with him at all, and Alex would be out of Cole's radar pulse once he gains a block-distance away.

Alex won't be regenerating while his whole body is being electrocuted. It electrifies his whole body since he's made out of flesh. Roasting him and temporarily preventing him from regenerating. Simple as that. And with Cole's range, he won't be letting Alex get anywhere. Heck hero Cole will probably tell people to go away to somewhere safe. Yes, its a shame that Cole can pick off Alex with bolts if he tries to get away. Especially the precision one, or recharge himself or get an overload.

They didn't go into separate directions. They all came down the same way, vertically. They take a good five seconds to land, which is enough time for Alex to lunge at Cole before he can shoot him. Even if the rockets came down afterwards, Cole would be dead, and Alex would consume his body.

IF you launch them at different points I said. Then if you do that, they'll come from different sections. Aim at Alex's left, up, then right at Alex when he's running towards you while shooting bolts at him. Of course Cole isn't dumb enough to shoot them off at the sky while letting Alex get close. He'll be moving and making Alex back off, or shooting the rockets towards him then redirecting them. Or shooting bolts while launching sticky rockets and redirect rockets

It isn't as safe for Cole as you think. It merely slows down the amount of time it takes for them to fall down, only slightly slowed down too. Alex would just boost himself out of the effect and go for Cole.

The Graviton Blast has only worked on low tier enemies (such as militia, regular ice-soldiers and swamp monsters), but it is useless against tougher/heavier opponents. Alex is very heavy (landing on concrete can be devastating), so at best it would push him back.

How exactly does Alex boost himself when he's as slow as a bug to Cole's eyes?

When enemies are being sent flying with the shockwave along with cars, something is clearly wrong. Alex is not as heavy, seeing that he was able to ride on Cross as he rose up. At best he's as heavy as a car. But Cole's shockwaves lifted things like those before. Even if you go on with this cannot lift Alex, its still clear that the force of the attack will be enough to send Alex rolling back or being knocked back to the air having been electrocuted. Momentum will shake off Alex's balance

  • Radar Pulse is limited to a block radius. Once Alex gets beyond that distance (fairly quickly too), Cole cannot track him without physically seeing him.

Like I said, the electricity properties in Cole's attacks are useless unless there is sufficient output behind them in order to affect Alex's durability.

Also, Alex is far more than a blob of meat. He does not possess the same weaknesses as other viruses do. Alex Mercer himself is dead, his memories were reactivated by the virus hosting on his body.

The virus itself is biologically immortal. The only way it can truly be destroyed is via Blood-Tox gas, or if it is possibly incinerated down to every yoctogram of it. Cole has neither the gas, nor the precision to destroy it.

Alex is as naked as a man. What exactly is stopping him from getting electrocuted? Cole's voltage is enough, as I showed above, to power up power grids and substations in a couple of hits, make cars explode after having electrocuted the whole thing in a few bolts, and kill people stepping on water with one shot. A casual attack by him. Also, puddle of biomass vs being frozen?

24:30. A casual attack from Cole which doesn't leave him even the slightest bit fatigue, was 20,00 volts enough to tear up those metal shackles. If it was an attack about half the level of the lightning storm then Cole will be at least fatigued, but no, he isn't. This is a simple attack from him.

Yes, but in the end he's still a blob of meat.

Only way? What about a black hole? What about being covered by acid? there's no such thing as only way. Alex can get killed in others way too. Don't just say someone can survive something because the only way to kill them is this way. Its like saying Cole can only be killed by the RFI since it only happens in a cutscene or in the story. Cole's electricity and cryokinesis are like the Blood-Tox-gas, affects Alex's body directly and more. The gas would go through Alex's body, and the electricity will do the same. I haven't started using cryokinesis yet, but it won't be fun for Alex if I do. I'll do that later.

While this is impressive, it certainly wouldn't kill Alex. When Alex fought Elizabeth Greene, she released an attack that covered a radius a lot bigger than the Ionic Vortex.

It destroyed everything within the radius, yet not Alex. He could dodge this attack with little effort. When it connected, it did however deplete a lot of Alex's health, but he could still move around like normal, consume people and then come back for more:

This is something that Alex's base needs to worry about. However, if Alex has his armor and shield active, he will certainly soak most of the power output coming from the storm. The armored form reduces most of the damage that Alex takes, so it would certainly be a strong factor going for him here:

I know that Alex needed to consume a crow in order to regenerate faster, but the fact that he could still reform after taking nuclear level force. It goes to show a lot, nothing in Infamous can come close to doing even remotely close damage to Mercer as the nuke did (the exception being the Beast, but that is a mismatch).

  • Cole wouldn't be able to keep Alex from getting close, not at all. His blasts wouldn't be strong enough to knock Alex off of his feet, but even if they were, Alex would just boost himself closer while in mid-air.

  • Actually no, Alex has the combat speed advantage. His reflexes, jumping and mobility speed is too much for Cole to handle at once without going all out. Alex has the advantage in combat speed as well as travel speed.

  • Cole's combos don't apply the same to Mercer. They only affect enemies of a lower-tier, they would do jack to Alex.

  • It wouldn't cancel his regeneration at all, they lack the sufficient output to plunge a hole in Alex's durability. Like I said, electrical properties don't mean anything if they lack the destructive force behind them.

  • I don't get what you mean.
  • Blast refutal. They are. The added electricity will also stun Alex. If he's also in the air, the electricity that hits him won't be grounded which means he'll be taking more damage than he should be. If he's on the ground, his momentum will force him to do a brilliant trip
  • Again attack speed. Area of effect attacks too. Gigawatt blades. Accuracy increases the closer Alex is, and a single attack will stun Alex. It will lock up his muscles, affect his whole body, and allow Cole to get away, attack more, or just drain some energy and then do it again.
  • They do apply to Alex since he's still human. If he has the ability to turn to something that can repel electricity then maybe. But here on, Cole's combos will hit Alex hard.
  • Taser blocked by arm. Voltage enough to destroy cars in a few seconds for his basic attacks. His medium-heavy class attacks takes out vehicles in one hit. http://i39.tinypic.com/2e6hhxu.jpg
  • OBD is basically some sort of debating area. It also lists feats of characters and refutes or boosts their capabilities if you show respect threads and give out calculations on how a character can really do wel

The Blade would cut MacGrath like paper. It destroys military tanks in a few slices, an air-slice will one-shot a helicopter, and so on. It make the Gigawatt Blades look like child's play:

Whipfist. This is a strong factor going for Alex in a ranged-battle. It is fast enough to grab Cole before he can react, and then it will pull Cole towards Alex and the slaughtering would commence.

MuscleMass. It doubles Alex's strength. Meaning that he would be able to fling cars at Cole like pebble-stones, considering that Alex was able to effortlessly toss a tank with one-hand:

And not to mention, Alex would create ground-spikes emerging from the ground with a simply smash to the ground with his shape-shifted fist:

#17 Edited by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I found it

Now the heat calculations

Nuke is about 83,333,315.56 celsius (50,000,000 to 150,000,000) Fahrenheit hot

In 1 second, there’s 30 microseconds of a terawatt.

In 30 microseconds, there’s enough heat transfer of around 30,000 kevlins (53,540 Fahrenheit)

Sun on the other hand, outer surface is around 6,000 kevlins (10,340 Fahrenheit). Core of course is around 15,000,000 kevlins(27,000,000 Fahrenheit) but we don’t care about that

That’s five times hotter than the sun’s outer surface

1000000 divided by 30 equals to 33,333.33

That would mean one second of Cole’s prolonged lightning storm equals to about (33,333.33 x 4) 133,333.2 times the heat of the sun.

Appetizer = 1 second = 799,999,920 kevlins (800,000,000). That’s more heat than a nuke in one second. By now one second of this you’d be dead

Note done yet. At maximum, Cole can prolong a lightning storm for 10 seconds if energy is full. Ionic storm is usually just around 4-5 seconds

Side Dish = Ionic Storm/4 second serving = 3,199,999,680 heat (3,200,000,000). That’s 3.2 billion

Buffet = Lightning Storm/10 second serving = 7,999,999,200 (8,000,000,000). That’s almost 8 billion

Eat all you Can - Karmic Overload + Lightning Storm/30 second = 23,999,997,600

That’s 24 billion kevlin

Of course I won't say that's literal. But its at least close to it. Still I frown at the thought of using Lightning Storm and Karmic Overload just for this one attack. This will be enough to end Alex though.

---

Also lightning tether can zap. A good counter for whipfist too.

---

My first message got cut off. Here's a continuation

And not to mention, Alex would create ground-spikes emerging from the ground with a simply smash to the ground with his shape-shifted fist:

Alex does a pose when he do that. Cole has been treated to a lot of supernatural non natural stuff like garbage golems or drug dealing people who can make shockwaves off the ground. He'll be dodging it when he noticed the ground is rumbling. Heck with Alex having to charge it up even for a second, Cole can be zapping him and interrupting it.

Like I said, Ionic Vortex would catch that Tendril Devastator. Heck if Alex uses any devastator in the air, he can be interrupted. Cole can instantly use any of his 'super' abilities. Alex has to charge up for a brief moment, takes out a bit of biomass from him, and can be interrupted. Cole's attacks happen to interrupt or stun enemies. That is the problem with Alex. He needs time to use his devastators, time that Cole could exploit to summon his own near instant lightning storm to end Alex...

Your main argument is aimed at how Alex will dodge or block every single one of Cole's attacks or him being resistant to electricity and not being stunned by it. But its not.

Sure most of Alex's attacks will end Cole. But the problem is reaching Cole. Alex can be stunned by any of Cole's attacks and be trapped in a combo of moves that will severely damage him, while Cole still has enough energy to recharge via bolt recharge or elec tether and electric drain.His whipfist and thrown projectiles are counterred by shockwaves, and his melee won't matter if he can't get close.

The closer Alex gets the more lethal he becomes, but so does Cole's accuracy and chance to knock Alex away. Alex has enough electricity in his basic attacks to bust out metal walls (aircraft carrier) those would be enough to tear up Alex.Alex can be tagged a hundred times more by Cole than Cole can be tagged by Alex. Simply because of Cole's time dilation ability and his stun effects. His armor is nice, but it wont do against electricity whens its made of flesh. Cole has the lead.

#18 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

Alex

#19 Posted by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus:

As a wise man once said

this is a cav wait until after for your opinion

Please everyone. Please read both arguments

#20 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by Iragexcudder (4274 posts) - - Show Bio

From the debate, Cole.

#23 Posted by mw2noobbuster (18 posts) - - Show Bio
#24 Posted by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus: As much as we all wanna hear your opinion, you post em after the CAV is done. The CAV isn't done yet

Also, Pope can we add in a rule of "Upon putting up who you vote for in a reply, you must also state a reason why you believe they win against the enemy"?

#25 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@undinehuntertitan:

Now the heat calculations

Nuke is about 83,333,315.56 celsius (50,000,000 to 150,000,000) Fahrenheit hot

In 1 second, there’s 30 microseconds of a terawatt.

In 30 microseconds, there’s enough heat transfer of around 30,000 kevlins (53,540 Fahrenheit)

Sun on the other hand, outer surface is around 6,000 kevlins (10,340 Fahrenheit). Core of course is around 15,000,000 kevlins(27,000,000 Fahrenheit) but we don’t care about that

That’s five times hotter than the sun’s outer surface

1000000 divided by 30 equals to 33,333.33

That would mean one second of Cole’s prolonged lightning storm equals to about (33,333.33 x 4) 133,333.2 times the heat of the sun.

Appetizer = 1 second = 799,999,920 kevlins (800,000,000). That’s more heat than a nuke in one second. By now one second of this you’d be dead

Note done yet. At maximum, Cole can prolong a lightning storm for 10 seconds if energy is full. Ionic storm is usually just around 4-5 seconds

Side Dish = Ionic Storm/4 second serving = 3,199,999,680 heat (3,200,000,000). That’s 3.2 billion

Buffet = Lightning Storm/10 second serving = 7,999,999,200 (8,000,000,000). That’s almost 8 billion

Eat all you Can - Karmic Overload + Lightning Storm/30 second = 23,999,997,600

That’s 24 billion kevlin

Of course I won't say that's literal. But its at least close to it. Still I frown at the thought of using Lightning Storm and Karmic Overload just for this one attack. This will be enough to end Alex though.

Even though your calculations are nicely detailed, they don't hold up. Cole has not demonstrated even remotely close power to 24 billion Kelvin, and I have no idea where you're getting Cole's supposed power calculations from either.

You can't go by this conjecture when Cole has never demonstrated remotely close output to the extent you're putting him on. It won't destroy Alex down to every last cell, and that's all that is needed for Alex to survive. Now i'm not saying that this would keep Alex from losing, but the attack will not end him. Nonetheless, these calculations are boosting Cole ridiculously beyond his capabilities.

Alex actually has the feats and proof to backup on how he is taking Cole out. Cole doesn't, not even remotely.

Also lightning tether can zap. A good counter for whipfist too.

Not really since the Whip-Fist has demonstrated to be far better of an offensive attack, the lightning tether is mainly used for transport. It's a similar ability, but not nearly as effective.

Alex does a pose when he do that. Cole has been treated to a lot of supernatural non natural stuff like garbage golems or drug dealing people who can make shockwaves off the ground. He'll be dodging it when he noticed the ground is rumbling. Heck with Alex having to charge it up even for a second, Cole can be zapping him and interrupting it.

Not at all, if you took a look at the scans Alex can simply hit the ground and they immediately emerge. He does not need to "pose":

Cole does not have that fast of dodging speeds. Considering how multiple spikes emerge from the ground trapping Cole, he isn't escaping this at all. It will end him.

Like I said, Ionic Vortex would catch that Tendril Devastator. Heck if Alex uses any devastator in the air, he can be interrupted. Cole can instantly use any of his 'super' abilities. Alex has to charge up for a brief moment, takes out a bit of biomass from him, and can be interrupted. Cole's attacks happen to interrupt or stun enemies. That is the problem with Alex. He needs time to use his devastators, time that Cole could exploit to summon his own near instant lightning storm to end Alex...

First of all, I see what you're saying. No doubt the Ionic Vortex could cancel out the Devastator, but Alex would get back up afterwards and regain his health, acknowledging the fact that Cole has a counter for it.

Alex then uses Critical Pain, it moves too fast and it's sheer force is enough to bypass the Ionic Vortex. It would tear Cole apart once he gets him with it, which won't be nearly as difficult as you think.

Cole isn't Spider-Man, he is slow (compared to Alex). He cannot counter every one of Alex's attacks, sure maybe a few but he will be overwhelmed by Alex due to the fact that Alex is near unstoppable.

Cole needs his Ionic Powers in order to think about even hurting Alex, where as Alex's punch would be an instant death scenario once it connects.

Your main argument is aimed at how Alex will dodge or block every single one of Cole's attacks or him being resistant to electricity and not being stunned by it. But its not.

And what's wrong with that? I've shown that Alex moves too fast for Cole to tag, and that Cole lacks the sufficient force in order to do damage to Alex (electrical properties mean nothing if his attacks have no force behind them).

You haven't shown Cole's ability to tag fast opponents on Alex's caliber (and teleporters don't count), he has trouble with tagging opponents who have decent air mobility. Alex takes air mobility to an entirely different level:

Sure most of Alex's attacks will end Cole. But the problem is reaching Cole. Alex can be stunned by any of Cole's attacks and be trapped in a combo of moves that will severely damage him, while Cole still has enough energy to recharge via bolt recharge or elec tether and electric drain.His whipfist and thrown projectiles are counterred by shockwaves, and his melee won't matter if he can't get close.

Not most, all of Alex's attacks would end Cole. Like i've said before, Cole can't keep Alex from getting close without using an Ionic Vortex (which he'd recover from). The fact is that Alex is getting close, and then the slaughtering commences.

The closer Alex gets the more lethal he becomes, but so does Cole's accuracy and chance to knock Alex away. Alex has enough electricity in his basic attacks to bust out metal walls (aircraft carrier) those would be enough to tear up Alex.Alex can be tagged a hundred times more by Cole than Cole can be tagged by Alex. Simply because of Cole's time dilation ability and his stun effects. His armor is nice, but it wont do against electricity whens its made of flesh. Cole has the lead.

The closer Alex gets is the harder it is for Cole to keep him away. You're severely underestimating Alex's ability to tag Cole here. Cole does not have anything (bar Ionic Powers) in his arsenal to keep Alex off of him. Alex isn't getting tagged and Cole lacks the speed to prevent being tagged himself.

Bursting out of an aircraft carrier? Big deal, Alex can dent tank metal with his punches. This feat isn't even close to being enough to assume that Cole can hurt Alex. He has tanked far more and far worse at once.

And like i've said, Cole's electricity lacks the power output to damage Mercer's flesh. So no, Cole doesn't have any lead except (arguably) better signature moves. One of which Alex will recover from (like he has before), and the Storm's damage to Alex would be nullified greatly by use of the Armor and the Shield.

#28 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@undinehuntertitan:

I'd also like to make some calculations for Alex's strength:

Alright, so as i've shown already. Alex could effortlessly toss a tank with one-hand:

Judging from the look of that video, the tank looked considerably larger than an M4 Sherman WWII Tank. They weigh in at 30.3 Metric Tonnes. So in order not to overpower nor underpower Alex, it's safe to assume that the tank was that weight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman

So Base Alex could lift 30.3 Metric Tonnes in one-hand, so with both hands that would be 60.6 Metric Tonnes in Base Form.

Now, we need to account for Muscle-Mass:

Muscle-Mass Increase:

Musclemass increases Alex 's melee damage twofold and increases the speed at which he strikes.

From that car-throw, it was easily double that of Alex's Base throwing capabilities. If you still aren't convinced, then here's a video containing two instances:

Instance One:

Alex punches a car three times with and without Muscle-Mass.

Without - Car is severely damaged, but still intact.

With - Car explodes from the impact.

Instance Two:

Alex hits a civilian with and without Muscle-Mass:

Without - Civilian dies from the hit.

With - Civilian explodes from the impact.

So all in all, it is obvious that the Muscle-Mass doubles Alex's strength. I've provided a statement and two video demonstrations. I can provide more if you wish, but this is more than enough for now anyway.

Muscle-Mass would double Alex's Base Strength of 60.6 tons, to 121.2 Tons.

Final Stats:

Base Alex - 60.6 Metric Tonnes (Enough to bench-press 40.4 Cars)

Alex (Muscle-Mass) - 121.2 Metric Tonnes (Enough to bench-press 80.8 Cars)

These calculations are merely the minimum that Alex can physically lift. Considering how effortlessly he could toss over 30 Metric Tonnes, it's more than likely that (with some effort) he could lift over 40 Metric Tonnes with one-hand.

Which would then multiply by 4 (Second Hand + Muscle-Mass) which would add up to 160 Metric Tonnes in total.

Nonetheless i'll stick with the 121.2 figure in order not to cause argument, but it should be around 160 Metric Tonne level.

This kind of strength would allow Alex to be throwing cars at Cole with greater force than Cole had ever received in any of his encounters with enemies. To add to that, (considering how effortlessly Alex can throw a tank) he would be throwing them like pebble-stones.

#29 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus: As much as we all wanna hear your opinion, you post em after the CAV is done. The CAV isn't done yet

Also, Pope can we add in a rule of "Upon putting up who you vote for in a reply, you must also state a reason why you believe they win against the enemy"?

CAV? Well I've played both gamers casually, and Alex has a lot more options going for him then Cole does. I believe Alex is not only stronger, but faster and his powers give him a massive edge over Cole here at the end of the day.

Thanks @pope052 his post was very helpful, and really is the best breakdown you can get. From what I remember, Alex was definitely faster and far stronger those vids refreshed a lot. So definitely going with Alex at this point.

#30 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus:

Read the OP. It's a Challenge a Viner debate, solely between me and @undinehuntertitan. Thanks for your support but you cannot interfere. Wait until the debate has finished and you may state your opinion, but only then.

#31 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I know, That's fine, I was just chiming in ;) continue. big gamer here so lol

#33 Edited by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

I really hate copy pasting sometimes. So much work to do

Even though your calculations are nicely detailed, they don't hold up. Cole has not demonstrated even remotely close power to 24 billion Kelvin, and I have no idea where you're getting Cole's supposed power calculations from either.

You can't go by this conjecture when Cole has never demonstrated remotely close output to the extent you're putting him on. It won't destroy Alex down to every last cell, and that's all that is needed for Alex to survive. Not saying that this would keep him from winning, but the attack will not end him. Nonetheless, these calculations are boosting Cole beyond his capabilities.

Alex actually has the feats and proof to backup on how he is taking Cole out. Cole doesn't, not even remotely.

Which is why i frown at the use of two ults at the same time. Then again you see a lot of OBDers do this in order to figure out how much force or speed someone can go. Regardless, I was aiming for a KO here. Once Alex becomes that puddle form again, even if he regenerates, which will take a long time, it will count as Cole's victory. That was the intent. That was the goal of the lightning storm. Of course once Alex is just a puddle, then its pretty easy to freeze him right?

Also, my deduction is very reasonable. A single lightning bolt is around a terrawatt. Cole summons a bunch of them by changing atmospheric conditions (weather does that all the time. With the power of electricity... well you get my point.) A single lightning bolt lasts 30 microseconds. A constant stream of them will be enough to fry Alex.

Okay, then this one. Cole absorbs the substation of energy at the underground power grids. That's approximately 38 gigawatts. Cole survives being on 38 gigawatts, and since he's a conduit (something that transfers energy) Cole can dish out the same amount. Also the 20,000 volts are the one from his video. An actual comic cutscene describing one of his more 'simpler' attacks.

Since cole's feats aren't as obvious, one actually had to think deeper and a bit of outside the box to show his true powers. So one actually has to search up facts about electricity and lightning.

Not really since the Whip-Fist has demonstrated to be far more of an offensive attack, the lightning tether is mainly used for transport. It's a similar ability, but not nearly as effective.Okay, shockwave it is instead of electric whip.Not at all, if you took a look at the scans Alex can simply hit the ground and they immediately emerge. He does not need to "pose":

Cole does not have that fast of dodging speeds. Considering how multiple spikes emerge from the ground trapping Cole, he isn't escaping this at all. It will end him.

Yes I agree that it will end Cole.

Then Alex runs into the risk of having to stay stationary even for half a second. That half a second Cole could exploit and interrupt the attack. It has good range I'll tell you that, but I doubt the validity of them immediately popping up since they'll need time travel. By placing concrete's hardness into the matter of how fast they're going, Alex would at least need a second for them after embedding his claws for them to pop up. Its not too far either, but I do agree it can severely maim Cole. But then again, Cole can easily interrupt Alex the moment he pauses slightly.Then again its not too far range either. And lightning tether would be a good move to use, either heading up, or Ice launch.. And question, will that apply when someone is on top of a building? Like can Alex use it on a building?

First of all, I see what you're saying. No doubt the Ionic Vortex could cancel out the Devastator, but Alex would get back up afterwards and regain his health, acknowledging the fact that Cole has a counter for it.

Alex then uses Critical Pain, it moves too fast and it's sheer force is enough to bypass the Ionic Vortex. It would tear Cole apart once he gets him with it, which won't be nearly as difficult as you think.

Cole isn't Spider-Man, he is slow (compared to Alex). He cannot counter every one of Alex's attacks, sure maybe a few but he will be overwhelmed by Alex due to the fact that Alex is near unstoppable.

Cole needs his Ionic Powers in order to think about even hurting Alex, where as Alex's punch would be an instant death scenario once it connects.

That's if Cole doesn't counter. All the while Cole can still be attacking Alex while the vortex is out.Critical Pain? The ability where Alex shoots out chunks of him forward then drains it back? I won't say its too fast actually when it launches. Its possible to dodge. If Alex is too far, Cole can just roll away and attack this currently vulnerable Alex, or if Alex is too close Cole can interrupt him with rockets and bolts. Let me response on another way on the bottom of the page.Now don't think of that too like that. Cole can hurt Alex even without ionics. His arsenal and electricty would still hurt Alex, especially the homing rockets and shockwaves and bolts. Just that Cole is more of a DPS guy. Why bother with one hit kills when one can follow up with stun and nuke attacks that you can combo? Ehem, sorry, League of Legends mode was turned on briefly. Its not that Alex can't end Cole. Its that Cole can play keep away with the amount of abilities he have.Alex is still being knocked around by explosives and blunt force after all.

And what's wrong with that? I've shown that Alex moves to fast for Cole to tag, and that Cole lacks the sufficient force in order to do damage to Alex (electrical properties mean nothing if his attacks have no force behind them).

You haven't shown Cole's ability to tag fast opponents on Alex's caliber (and teleporters don't count), he has trouble with tagging opponents who have decent air mobility. Alex takes air mobility to an entirely different level:

I remember now. That's why I can't make you believe it.

Remember how guns are aimed at you then they fire bullets straight? That's how regular people dodges gunshots by taking cover first. You see where they're aiming, but then you can move away and take cover. That's how you think Alex will know where to move.

Anyway Cole points with his arms, but he can shift where he shoots. And he can shoot at a various amount of angles. Its not like a stick that you point. this isn't a gun that alex will see where it will shoot at. Basically a gun is like a line that you hold and move to point at something. Cole's hands, even without being raised can shoot electricity, and can shoot more in a cone like angle. He can shoot at any direction inside that cone with the same stance.

Where will Alex dodge? How will he know where Cole is aiming? He knows Cole is aiming TOWARDS him but how will he accurately deduce where EXACTLY Cole is going to shoot? Cole isn't just going to shoot where Alex is and let him dodge. He's also going to predict where Alex is going to run or end up and then shoot. And the closer Alex is, the easier it is for Cole to aim, while still making it hard for Alex to dodge since he needs to charge in straight.

If he moves away or to the side he can't attack yet and is only delaying the inevitable. He'll have to go straight at Cole, who could be backing away by then to a better position as he get close, or ice launching away. And that's not counting the rocket to the ground or shockwave's large area of effect. Melee is not a good action here.

As below, the electric bolts can rip through metal. I would say that has enough force to damage Mercer. That was my aim with the airship argument.

Cole tagged flying air drones that were bombing missiles from the sky. There's also the precision argument. And then there's also the regular reactions to rockets. Air mobility? You mean three air dashes and the glide? You realize how tempting it would be for Cole to just send a shockwave or a tornado? And then there's the Sticky Rockets, which I really adore using against pesky Vemaak Runners, especially the airborne ones.

Not most, all of Alex's attacks would end Cole.

Like i've said before, Cole can't keep Alex from getting close without using an Ionic Vortex (which he'd recover from). The fact is that Alex is getting close, and then the slaughtering commences.

Again you're underestimating Ionic Vortex combos. Again, underestimating the closer you get the dangerous it gets for both of them.

The closer Alex gets is the harder it is for Cole to keep him away. You're severely underestimating Alex's ability to tag Cole here. Cole does not have anything (bar Ionic Powers) in his arsenal to keep Alex off of him. Alex isn't getting tagged and Cole lacks the speed to prevent being tagged himself.

Bursting out of an aircraft carrier? Big deal, Alex can dent tank metal with his punches. This feat isn't even close to being enough to assume that Cole can hurt Alex. He has tanked far more and far worse at once.

And like i've said, Cole's electricity lacks the power output to damage Mercer's flesh. So no, Cole doesn't have any lead except (arguably) better signature moves. One of which Alex will recover from (like he has before), and the Storm's damage to Alex would be nullified greatly by use of the Armor and the Shield.

And you're severely underestimating Cole's ability to tag people who are close to him. Shockwaves, rockets to the ground, homing rockets. Bolts shot off at different points. Precision. Heck what about a tornado when your enemy is right in front of you? Alex will surely not expect that coming out of nowhere.

My goal with the bursting out of aircraft carrier is the lethality of Cole's bolts. If they can rip apart metal in short shots, then they can probab-no, they can damage Alex. As I said, the armor and shield are still made out of flesh. Flesh had never deflected electricity, and with electricity that can tear through metal... Well I'm just waiting for you to prove to me exactly how can Alex block electricity since electricity is pure energy. After all the lethality from it isn't really the volts/power, but the wattage. And I know a single bolt of electricity can cover all of Alex's body before it gets grounded. That's the problem. Alex's density will get him fried even more. that's the problem. And if taken to the air, the electricity would lock him up since it won't get grounded.But its time to take things up a notch. Or down depending on how you interpret temperature puns.

If hunters can bust out metal, and Cole can bust out metal, and the hunters can damage Alex, I'm certain Cole can damage Alex.

Cryokinesis - Somewhere on that video below, Cole has the ice attacksCole has shown good use of cryokinesis.Ice bolts/Shatter Blast - He is able to form a barrage of icicles in around a second. They are then set out in a large blast. The AoE effect of the shockwave and a chilling burst of icicles. It doesn't help that Alex is 'naked' in terms of clothing.

Ice Grenade/Ice Barrier - Cole is able to toss these out. Although small on blast radius, it still has the kinetic impact to detonate car. It also forms ice barriers that can be used to hamper or trip if not outright toss enemies. The way they can embed on the skin would be troublesome. With this I see Cole making a too close Alex trip. Or launch it at Alex's shield to well, cause some problems.

Freeze Rocket - Freezing enemies at sub-zero temperatures, described even by the game itself, these can 1 hit freeze enemies and encase them in ice. Fast and swift, it might be small radius, but a point blank hit at Alex would be a problem. Perfect time to use this? When interrupting a devastator, groundspike, or when he's far too close with hammerfists.

Ice Launch - Form an ice pillar beneath your feet and launch yourself. Or when in the air, form a block of ice and let it drop to your enemy. This would be a nice escape against Graveyard Spikes

Polarity Wall - Turns any sort of bullets and energy beams into energy. That's pretty much it.

Also, ice melts. It turns to water. Water can be electrified. If any of these ice attack hits Alex then melts, it might be a 'boosted' effect that Cole's lightnign will do more damage.Also, forgot a couple of moves.

Thunder Drop - drop down from the sky with a big blast. Electrified everything too and destroys cars. The higher, the larger the blast.

Overload Burst - This move is particularly fast. Slow on start up, but high damaging. Should probably freeze Mercer before using this Cole. This has enough energy to destroy a car in one hit.

Arc Lightning - Shoots off lightning towards a group of targets. But I'm betting you say this doesn't count, but still something I wanna say.

Kinetic Pulse - Allows him to turn cars or pizza boxes into weapons. The electric exploding type. The heavier the bigger the blow, the smaller the faster it goes. It can also work by redirecting rockets.

Can also be used for deflecting rocket and tank shells

The Ionic Freeze

9:38Fast and fatal, this ability freezes anything on a path in front of Cole. Far reaching, this would be a very good weapon to use if you need Alex to be encased even for a bit, then this is a good one to use. It freezes anything in a path, encasing human sized enemies with ice, or fatally damaging giant creatures with frost. People on a small area around Cole will even freeze. Cole can even control what his freezing attack effects, allowing him to prevent civilians from freezing. It even has ice spikes to use as cover or ammunition for Cole's kinetic pulse.

Alex too close? Freeze him.

Alex too far doing some sort of super attack? Specifically the Critical Pain one? Freeze him.

Alex having a hostage? Freeze em

This attack would leave Alex in a very vulnerable position for the lightning storm.I would take this time to say that this has been my favorite debate with Alex and Cole. Not really relevant but saying it now, its fun debating with people like you who actually know their stuff.

#34 Edited by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Oh, actually nice calcs. I would think you can bring that to OBD and tell them to improve his striking strength stats. Then again, they already say his max force is capable of busting buildings.

Anyway, that's fine and dandy. But when exactly will Alex have the time to pick up an object when he's constantly being shot at? The moment he slows down he'll get pelted by bolts and be stunned. That's enough time for Cole to follow up with a freeze rocket or more homing rockets then thunder storm.

If Alex picks one up too far and throws it out of Cole's range, it would be quite easy to just step away from wherever its coming from. For insurance even shot out a shockwave for it to dampen it when you're far.

For the rule I spoke of earlier, I meant why they voted for this character. No skipping the debate, they have to read it. They have to say at least a few moves they learnt from the other that they didn't know they had. Because I know when people skip over what is posted

Note- I posted too many messages in a row. Wait for any reply from me tomorrow

#35 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@undinehuntertitan:

Which is why i frown at the use of two ults at the same time. Then again you see a lot of OBDers do this in order to figure out how much force or speed someone can go. Regardless, I was aiming for a KO here. Once Alex becomes that puddle form again, even if he regenerates, which will take a long time, it will count as Cole's victory. That was the intent. That was the goal of the lightning storm. Of course once Alex is just a puddle, then its pretty easy to freeze him right?

The thing is, a lightning Storm still wouldn't put down Mercer when he is in armored form along with his shield. At best it would deplete both the armor and shield, but it wouldn't get through Alex's durability as well. And for the record, the time of the Storm is at best only six seconds.

I don't know where you're getting the ten second figure from. In Infamous 1, even when Cole was standing over an electricity generator it still only lasted six seconds.

As for dodging the Ionic Storm itself, Alex certainly has the reaction speed to do so. Even though bullets aren't nearly as fast as lightning, he was still able to outpace a sniper-rifle bullet that has pin-point accuracy onto Alex, yet he was still faster. Not to mention he was only running and wasn't necessarily trying to dodge it.

Alex can dodge the Ionic Storm, but I guess you won't be convinced unless I go into detail. Very well then..

Alex's Reaction Speed VS Cole's Attack Speed:

Now, i've shown that Alex could outpace a pin-point sniper-rifle bullet on the spot, while he wasn't solely trying to dodge it in the first place. He outpaced it just by running. (Just to refresh your memory):

A Barrett M82 bullet moves at a speed of 853 M/S. It's reasonable to assume that the sniper bullet shot at Alex was moving at roughly the same speed, so we'll go with that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82

Of course, you could easily say that i'm speculating the speed of the bullet that was fired at Alex. So i'll go with a slower AK47 bullet, in order not to overpower him. The speed of that bullet is 715 M/S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47

That goes to show that Alex possesses (minimally) X2 times Super-Sonic Reaction Speed.

Final Stats of Alex's Reaction Speed:

Supersonic+ Reaction Speed, (w/o build-up/acceleration).

This also means that he is fast enough to avoid the (slower) Ionic Vortex. Cole's Ionic Powers are both completely countered by Alex's reaction speed.

Also, my deduction is very reasonable. A single lightning bolt is around a terrawatt. Cole summons a bunch of them by changing atmospheric conditions (weather does that all the time. With the power of electricity... well you get my point.) A single lightning bolt lasts 30 microseconds. A constant stream of them will be enough to fry Alex.

Okay, then this one. Cole absorbs the substation of energy at the underground power grids. That's approximately 38 gigawatts. Cole survives being on 38 gigawatts, and since he's a conduit (something that transfers energy) Cole can dish out the same amount. Also the 20,000 volts are the one from his video. An actual comic cutscene describing one of his more 'simpler' attacks.

Since cole's feats aren't as obvious, one actually had to think deeper and a bit of outside the box to show his true powers. So one actually has to search up facts about electricity and lightning.

Like I said, the calculations are excellent. However, it is pure theory and conjecture nonetheless. You lack the feats and backup to hold the calculations in place. You haven't shown Cole's true power, you have merely speculated it. There's a big difference between to speculate something, and to show something.

Yes I agree that it will end Cole.

Then Alex runs into the risk of having to stay stationary even for half a second. That half a second Cole could exploit and interrupt the attack. It has good range I'll tell you that, but I doubt the validity of them immediately popping up since they'll need time travel. By placing concrete's hardness into the matter of how fast they're going, Alex would at least need a second for them after embedding his claws for them to pop up. Its not too far either, but I do agree it can severely maim Cole. But then again, Cole can easily interrupt Alex the moment he pauses slightly.Then again its not too far range either. And lightning tether would be a good move to use, either heading up, or Ice launch.. And question, will that apply when someone is on top of a building? Like can Alex use it on a building?

You're overestimating Cole's reaction speed. He cannot exploit half a second. And if you'd actually look at the scans, it clearly shows the second that Alex hits the ground all of the spikes emerge in that second. They don't need time to travel, they happen as soon as Alex makes contact with the ground.

The lightning tether isn't nearly as effective as it is versatile. It is good for travelling to a high building quickly, but it is practically useless against the Whip-Fist (if they were used against one another).

As for the question on if Alex can do it whilst on a building, he most certainly can:

If you mean can he do it whilst Alex is on the ground and Cole is on top of a building, then I don't think he can. However, it's not like he couldn't just run up the building to where Cole is anyway.

That's if Cole doesn't counter. All the while Cole can still be attacking Alex while the vortex is out.Critical Pain? The ability where Alex shoots out chunks of him forward then drains it back? I won't say its too fast actually when it launches. Its possible to dodge. If Alex is too far, Cole can just roll away and attack this currently vulnerable Alex, or if Alex is too close Cole can interrupt him with rockets and bolts. Let me response on another way on the bottom of the page.Now don't think of that too like that. Cole can hurt Alex even without ionics. His arsenal and electricty would still hurt Alex, especially the homing rockets and shockwaves and bolts. Just that Cole is more of a DPS guy. Why bother with one hit kills when one can follow up with stun and nuke attacks that you can combo? Ehem, sorry, League of Legends mode was turned on briefly. Its not that Alex can't end Cole. Its that Cole can play keep away with the amount of abilities he have.Alex is still being knocked around by explosives and blunt force after all.

That's the thing about Critical Pain. It isn't used as a ranged attack (that's a job for the Tendril Barrage Devastator), it is used to turn the target into blood and guts up close. Don't get me wrong, it can be used at a distance, but it is far more effective used up close.

Cole cannot hurt, let alone tag Alex with his basic attacks. They lack the sufficient force behind them to do damage, and i've already made calculations of how Alex's reaction speed is more than fast enough to dodge Cole's attacks too. Combos, etc that Cole uses against regular enemies are meaningless to use against Alex, because they won't work on him.

I know that Alex can get knocked around by blunt force, explosives and what not, but Cole is lacking in the force needed to knock Alex off of his feet (without an Ionic Vortex).

I remember now. That's why I can't make you believe it.

Remember how guns are aimed at you then they fire bullets straight? That's how regular people dodges gunshots by taking cover first. You see where they're aiming, but then you can move away and take cover. That's how you think Alex will know where to move.

Anyway Cole points with his arms, but he can shift where he shoots. And he can shoot at a various amount of angles. Its not like a stick that you point. this isn't a gun that alex will see where it will shoot at. Basically a gun is like a line that you hold and move to point at something. Cole's hands, even without being raised can shoot electricity, and can shoot more in a cone like angle. He can shoot at any direction inside that cone with the same stance.

Where will Alex dodge? How will he know where Cole is aiming? He knows Cole is aiming TOWARDS him but how will he accurately deduce where EXACTLY Cole is going to shoot? Cole isn't just going to shoot where Alex is and let him dodge. He's also going to predict where Alex is going to run or end up and then shoot. And the closer Alex is, the easier it is for Cole to aim, while still making it hard for Alex to dodge since he needs to charge in straight.

In that sniper-rifle dodging feat, Alex was running forward while the helicopter was behind him. There would have been no way for him to tell where the bullet was exactly coming from.

Alex doesn't have eyes on the back of his head now does he? Then how did he dodge the bullet when he couldn't see exactly where it was coming from? It's a simple answer, it was because he was FASTER, and that's all that matters. He was fast enough to outpace the bullet.

The same applies in this case. Where Cole is going to shoot, Alex is always going to outpace Cole's accuracy. Alex will be beyond the point where Cole fired at before the bolt, rocket, etc hits that exact place where he thought Alex was going to get hit.

If he moves away or to the side he can't attack yet and is only delaying the inevitable. He'll have to go straight at Cole, who could be backing away by then to a better position as he get close, or ice launching away. And that's not counting the rocket to the ground or shockwave's large area of effect. Melee is not a good action here.

As below, the electric bolts can rip through metal. I would say that has enough force to damage Mercer. That was my aim with the airship argument.

Cole tagged flying air drones that were bombing missiles from the sky. There's also the precision argument. And then there's also the regular reactions to rockets. Air mobility? You mean three air dashes and the glide? You realize how tempting it would be for Cole to just send a shockwave or a tornado? And then there's the Sticky Rockets, which I really adore using against pesky Vemaak Runners, especially the airborne ones.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Alex has to come directly towards Cole to attack. He can jump around Cole and then boost himself in for a kick when Cole doesn't expect it. Cole's Ice Launch is very slow and not nearly high enough to allow him to escape from Alex's air combat/mobility. Melee is a strong factor going for Alex, stop ignoring it.

Metal is only child's play to Alex. He has took countless attacks head on that far surpass "busting metal". Alex's air mobility is still numbers of times better than anything Cole has had trouble with in the past.His precision isn't fast enough to tag Alex if he's soaring through the air, as it has had trouble tagging beings of much lesser speed and air mobility.

A shockwave will do jack to Alex. An Ionic Vortex (if it hits him), will at best deplete a lot of Mercer's health, but that's it. Alex then takes it to the rooftops of buildings and gets out of Cole's sights, allowing time for consumption.

And you're severely underestimating Cole's ability to tag people who are close to him. Shockwaves, rockets to the ground, homing rockets. Bolts shot off at different points. Precision. Heck what about a tornado when your enemy is right in front of you? Alex will surely not expect that coming out of nowhere.

I'm not underestimating Cole's ability to handle opponents close to him. No doubt he is definitely great at fighting close combat fights, but not against Alex. You're acting like Cole can simultaneously spam out multiple bolts, rockets, shock-waves and tornadoes with a seemingly limitless amount of electricity. In actuality, Cole can toss out several grenades and be nearly half empty of power.

Cole is at a huge disadvantage needing to recharge here because he'll constantly need to absolutely spam the sh!t out of Alex in order to stand a chance, but Alex's speed allows him to easily handle avoiding Cole's attacks and his defensive abilities (along with his raw durability & regeneration) keeps him safe from severe damage too.

I think you're underestimating Alex's Speed, i'll go into slight detail on it:

Alex's Speed Calculations:

On the OBD, they provided a link explaining how fast Alex can go. He is invisible to the human-eye at top-speed:

Here is the quote taken from that link:

Actually, do you have any idea what the dimensions of the map are? I actually time how long it takes Mercer to run the entire length of the single longest piece of road in the game, which is basically the entire length of the map. Even getting bodychecked by a Hunter, and the streets littered with traffic and car wrecks and endless crowds of screaming civillians, I made the run in three minutes, ten seconds.

Given that the map is supposed to be a recreation of Manhattan, it should be 13.4 miles long and 2.3 miles wide.

That's rather impressive for a flat run. Alex can outrun helicopters, so it's to be expected.

4.6 Miles per minute, which is then multiplied by 60 = 276 MPH

If Cole is shooting at him with anything, he'll ( at best) get ONE shot before he reaches and guts him.

My goal with the bursting out of aircraft carrier is the lethality of Cole's bolts. If they can rip apart metal in short shots, then they can probab-no, they can damage Alex. As I said, the armor and shield are still made out of flesh. Flesh had never deflected electricity, and with electricity that can tear through metal... Well I'm just waiting for you to prove to me exactly how can Alex block electricity since electricity is pure energy. After all the lethality from it isn't really the volts/power, but the wattage. And I know a single bolt of electricity can cover all of Alex's body before it gets grounded. That's the problem. Alex's density will get him fried even more. that's the problem. And if taken to the air, the electricity would lock him up since it won't get grounded.But its time to take things up a notch. Or down depending on how you interpret temperature puns.

If hunters can bust out metal, and Cole can bust out metal, and the hunters can damage Alex, I'm certain Cole can damage Alex.

Flesh has never deflected tank shells or bullets either, yet Alex's armor and shield can do just that. They would have no problem handling Cole's attacks as it is. His busting out of metal feat is what Alex was doing in the primary stages of acquiring his full-power.

Like i've said, Cole lacks the sufficient power output (not properties) to harm Alex. Sure busting out of metal is nice, but it's still not sufficient.

And for the record, when Alex is completely upgraded he can casually tank hits from the Hunters and smack them around all the same. I know the Hunters can still harm Alex, but that's only if he lets them.

Cryokinesis - Somewhere on that video below, Cole has the ice attacksCole has shown good use of cryokinesis.Ice bolts/Shatter Blast - He is able to form a barrage of icicles in around a second. They are then set out in a large blast. The AoE effect of the shockwave and a chilling burst of icicles. It doesn't help that Alex is 'naked' in terms of clothing.

Ice Grenade/Ice Barrier - Cole is able to toss these out. Although small on blast radius, it still has the kinetic impact to detonate car. It also forms ice barriers that can be used to hamper or trip if not outright toss enemies. The way they can embed on the skin would be troublesome. With this I see Cole making a too close Alex trip. Or launch it at Alex's shield to well, cause some problems.

Freeze Rocket - Freezing enemies at sub-zero temperatures, described even by the game itself, these can 1 hit freeze enemies and encase them in ice. Fast and swift, it might be small radius, but a point blank hit at Alex would be a problem. Perfect time to use this? When interrupting a devastator, groundspike, or when he's far too close with hammerfists.

This is all nice, but it is basically all what Cole can already do except in the form of ice. Although these extra forms of powers for Cole are nifty, they still lack the same properties that his original powers do needed to harm, or tag Alex.

Polarity Wall - Turns any sort of bullets and energy beams into energy. That's pretty much it.

Actually it doesn't, it just cancels them out. It's still pretty nifty nonetheless, but the Polarity Wall is less defensive than Alex's Shield. Considering that it cannot cancel out or deflect grenades (IIRC).

Also, ice melts. It turns to water. Water can be electrified. If any of these ice attack hits Alex then melts, it might be a 'boosted' effect that Cole's lightnign will do more damage.Also, forgot a couple of moves.

Cole's Ice Attacks don't have any form of a water after-effect, stop making up things.

Thunder Drop - drop down from the sky with a big blast. Electrified everything too and destroys cars. The higher, the larger the blast.

While this is impressive, Cole would have to gain a very considerable height in order to think of this having an effect on Alex. This is assuming of course that Alex doesn't decide to run up the entire building in seconds whilst Cole is not even halfway up.

Even if Cole did manage to get high enough, his drop speed is easily avoidable.

Overload Burst - This move is particularly fast. Slow on start up, but high damaging. Should probably freeze Mercer before using this Cole. This has enough energy to destroy a car in one hit.

Impressive for Cole, Alex can slice through chopper armor once with his Blade and the chopper explodes. He'd be able to do that to Cole with his Claws (and the Claws are child's play compared to the Blade), hell even with his bare hands.

Kinetic Pulse - Allows him to turn cars or pizza boxes into weapons. The electric exploding type. The heavier the bigger the blow, the smaller the faster it goes. It can also work by redirecting rockets.

Can also be used for deflecting rocket and tank shells

Alex can throw objects at a much greater force, further distance, and higher height with his Base strength than Cole can with Kinetic Pulse. Regardless, the projectiles that Cole sends out at Alex would be countered by Alex's shield, or just simply dodged.

The Ionic Freeze

9:38Fast and fatal, this ability freezes anything on a path in front of Cole. Far reaching, this would be a very good weapon to use if you need Alex to be encased even for a bit, then this is a good one to use. It freezes anything in a path, encasing human sized enemies with ice, or fatally damaging giant creatures with frost. People on a small area around Cole will even freeze. Cole can even control what his freezing attack effects, allowing him to prevent civilians from freezing. It even has ice spikes to use as cover or ammunition for Cole's kinetic pulse.

Alex too close? Freeze him.

Alex too far doing some sort of super attack? Specifically the Critical Pain one? Freeze him.

Alex having a hostage? Freeze em

This attack would leave Alex in a very vulnerable position for the lightning storm.I would take this time to say that this has been my favorite debate with Alex and Cole. Not really relevant but saying it now, its fun debating with people like you who actually know their stuff.

Again, impressive but too slow. Alex has escaped from Elizabeth Greene's near death attack at even point blank ranges. All it takes is for him to see one icicle and he'd jump out of the way. His reactions are key here and more than enough to allow him to avoid it. Not to mention that Alex's Ground-Spikes emerge faster than the Icicles do.

I know it seems like i'm focusing too much on Alex's speed and reaction speed, but the two are big factors for him in a fight against Cole. And since Cole lacks both of these (compared to Alex), it just makes it a massive advantage that you cannot ignore.

Oh, actually nice calcs. I would think you can bring that to OBD and tell them to improve his striking strength stats. Then again, they already say his max force is capable of busting buildings.

Actually that's wrong, they said his minimal capability is building busting+.

Anyway, that's fine and dandy. But when exactly will Alex have the time to pick up an object when he's constantly being shot at? The moment he slows down he'll get pelted by bolts and be stunned. That's enough time for Cole to follow up with a freeze rocket or more homing rockets then thunder storm.

Alex casually picks up trucks while he's sprinting, while being shot at. Cole is no different, in fact he is less of a challenge than what Alex faces on a daily basis. Considering that there are countless soldiers/infected, several helicopters/tanks, and military equipment such as turrets, etc. Handling Cole's fire-rate is a piece of cake, such as sweet piece of cake that it's not even a challenge for Alex.

If Alex picks one up too far and throws it out of Cole's range, it would be quite easy to just step away from wherever its coming from. For insurance even shot out a shockwave for it to dampen it when you're far.

That wouldn't be the case, Alex would pick up a garbage truck, use it as a shield (if he even needed to) to get close, and then hurl it into Cole's face, killing him. Cole's blasts haven't faced up against 25+ tons, i'd say at max they can blast away 5 tons worth of metal. Cole would have to dodge it in order to stay alive. Blasting it would be a mistake.

#36 Edited by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I'm in high school right now. But let me respond to this first part for a bit.

The thing is, a lightning Storm still wouldn't put down Mercer when he is in armored form along with his shield. At best it would deplete both the armor and shield, but it wouldn't get through Alex's durability as well. And for the record, the time of the Storm is at best only six seconds.

I don't know where you're getting the ten second figure from. In Infamous 1, even when Cole was standing over an electricity generator it still only lasted six seconds.

As for dodging the Ionic Storm itself, Alex certainly has the reaction speed to do so. Even though bullets aren't nearly as fast as lightning, he was still able to outpace a sniper-rifle bullet that has pin-point accuracy onto Alex, yet he was still faster. Not to mention he was only running and wasn't necessarily trying to dodge it.

Alex can dodge the Ionic Storm, but I guess you won't be convinced unless I go into detail. Very well then..Sigh. Let me just clear this up. The shield and armor are part of Alex. They are attached to him as biomass. Biomass is conductive. You're using biomass to block a lightning storm. Biomass that is part of you. How in the world is it not going to course throughout your body constantly?

Six seconds? you're serious? I don't know if you're serious but using that while having full battery cores, unlocked every blast shard, gives me ten seconds. Maybe you were aiming for the ocean, which happens to end the lightning storm whenever you use it. Unlike in the comics...

And haven't you noticed already? the game limits everything. Cole requires energy, but he doesn't constantly absorb them in the comics. He has a larger battery than you think. If he didn't, he would have been panting after the takedown of two helicopters followed by lightning storm. And you can see he was using rockets too.

The problem is physical speed. Unless Alex is a blur (which only happens if he's on his peak running speed by running straight on and not going back a direction) he would be hit by the bolts. His reaction is fast, but hes not fast enough to dodge lightning. And Cole's comic lightning bolts are fast and struck as bursts. Then with that speed how would the sniper even aim?

He wasn't still on the first place? well there goes my belief. I doubt the sniper could even calculate the wind when he just shot a bullet at around give or take around 7 seconds. There's the counter. Alex was already running to begin with before it shot at him. He wasn't standing still, he was already running. There goes your speed and reaction feat. He wasn't still. Requirements of reacting to those things, is that you're standing still before you dodge. And noticeably the sniper was on the chopper. Take in the occasional sway, Alex's momentum. Goodbye speed feat. You're clearly boosting his speed too much. Otherwise he could've outrunned all those choppers chasing him.Alex's reaction is fast. But he had momentum that time. And ever recall sniper bullets missing? Regardless, let me show you a little something about the ionic storm.--

It shoots around Cole, and look at how accurate each bolt was? Add that to the actual lightning speed. Around area effect. Alex, ain't dodging that. Nor is he tanking that. A terawatt to the body is gonna hurt hard. A terawatt lasts 30 microseconds. I'll give you a generous 1 second instead of 5 or 10. That's still going to fry Alex through his shield and armor. Biomass won't be blocking this....

All of Alex's Reaction Speed VS Cole's Attack Speed:

Unless you're suddenly finding out someone pointed a gun at you and has already fired the moment you notice it, and then you calculate it if they dodge: that's the exact accurate reaction speed

If you calculate Alex already running full sprint from a swaying helicopter carrying a sniper who just started aiming at Alex and made a potshot at Alex in less than 7 seconds due to the pressure of Alex outrunning them (So that they won't lose him by stopping the helicopter and letting the sniper aim), then clearly small mistakes are made.

Cole's attack speed aren't bullet fast. They're faster. You're just downplaying Cole now

...

.... What?715.. by 62... Are you saying machine gun bullets can travel up to 715 miles in less than a second?I'm sorry I might be an idiot. I am. But I am sure as hell bullets don't travel faster than lightning.And its 62 miles per second. And odd, I'm also getting 3,700 miles per second on my own findings. I think people will have to disregard this speed feat of yours for now.

Edit - I'm not done yet. So expect a full on reply from me later

#38 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@undinehuntertitan:

Six seconds? you're serious? I don't know if you're serious but using that while having full battery cores, unlocked every blast shard, gives me ten seconds. Maybe you were aiming for the ocean, which happens to end the lightning storm whenever you use it. Unlike in the comics...

The Blast Shards slipped my mind, apologies. However, since we're using Ionic Charges instead of basing it off of Cole's electricity storage, in Infamous 2 the Ionic Storm only lasts for six seconds (even a little less). I haven't played Infamous 1 in a while, so forgive me if i'm lacking some knowledge for that. But for Infamous 2, IIRC the Ionic Storm only lasts for about five/six seconds.

And haven't you noticed already? the game limits everything. Cole requires energy, but he doesn't constantly absorb them in the comics. He has a larger battery than you think. If he didn't, he would have been panting after the takedown of two helicopters followed by lightning storm. And you can see he was using rockets too.

I realize that Cole has a large storage of energy, however you're really boosting it beyond it's limit.

The problem is physical speed. Unless Alex is a blur (which only happens if he's on his peak running speed by running straight on and not going back a direction) he would be hit by the bolts. His reaction is fast, but hes not fast enough to dodge lightning. And Cole's comic lightning bolts are fast and struck as bursts. Then with that speed how would the sniper even aim?

Alex wasn't running top speed when the sniper was aiming, but he was running fast enough to outpace a pin-point accurate a (minimally) 715 M/S bullet. However, when actually running top-speed (which only takes five/six seconds of build up) he is a blur to human vision (considering he could scale Manhattan within three minutes).

I know that the Ionic Storm is accurate, but the opponents Cole tagged in that scan were standing still. Now, for Cole to hit Alex pin-point with a lightning bolt, that would have to be assuming Alex would be standing still.. but that wouldn't make any sense, would it?

Alex would be constantly moving at greater speeds for the entire fight, getting even faster as time goes on. Cole needs to be standing still and in a good position to get a good hit on a leaping Ice-Soldier.

Blame it on mechanics if you will, but he hasn't shown to tag anyone even remotely close to Alex's speed (teleporters don't count). Some of his attacks may be lightning fast, but they'll miss Alex most (if not all) the time as he is a constant moving target with faster speed than an aimed sniper-rifle bullet (without acceleration).

Cole's lightning has never tagged that speed on pin-point hit. Cole would literally NEED to be able to see a bullet moving in clear view, and then hit it with a lightning bolt to even think about hitting Alex. Even precision doesn't give him that kind of accuracy, it's literally impossible for him to tag Alex without him standing still, or moving slower than a bullet.

He wasn't still on the first place? well there goes my belief. I doubt the sniper could even calculate the wind when he just shot a bullet at around give or take around 7 seconds. There's the counter. Alex was already running to begin with before it shot at him. He wasn't standing still, he was already running. There goes your speed and reaction feat. He wasn't still. Requirements of reacting to those things, is that you're standing still before you dodge. And noticeably the sniper was on the chopper. Take in the occasional sway, Alex's momentum. Goodbye speed feat. You're clearly boosting his speed too much. Otherwise he could've outrunned all those choppers chasing him.Alex's reaction is fast. But he had momentum that time. And ever recall sniper bullets missing? Regardless, let me show you a little something about the ionic storm.--

It doesn't matter if Alex wasn't standing still, he was moving "slow" enough to be in a sniper-rifle's sights, and he still outpaced the bullet. Nonetheless, this speed feat is only the tip of the ice-berg.

Alex can casually dodge tank-shells, that alone requires super-sonic+ reaction speed. (Unless you want to argue with OBD).

It shoots around Cole, and look at how accurate each bolt was? Add that to the actual lightning speed. Around area effect. Alex, ain't dodging that. Nor is he tanking that. A terawatt to the body is gonna hurt hard. A terawatt lasts 30 microseconds. I'll give you a generous 1 second instead of 5 or 10. That's still going to fry Alex through his shield and armor. Biomass won't be blocking this....

Like I said, those were only soldiers who were standing still firing at Cole. Alex isn't an ordinary soldier, and he isn't going to be standing still. He moves fast enough to dodge pin-point bullets (w/o build-up), and becomes a blur to the human eye after a build-up. I'd need concrete evidence that Cole can tag something faster than a bullet, on the spot.

You can keep throwing out the "Cole's attacks are as fast lightning, so therefore he can tag anybody that speed or below" logic all you want, it doesn't prove he can utilize that attack speed on someone who can outpace bullets.

Spider-Man has dodged attacks from Electro, Spider-Man doesn't need to be faster than lightning. Same applies in this case.

Unless you're suddenly finding out someone pointed a gun at you and has already fired the moment you notice it, and then you calculate it if they dodge: that's the exact accurate reaction speed

If you calculate Alex already running full sprint from a swaying helicopter carrying a sniper who just started aiming at Alex and made a potshot at Alex in less than 7 seconds due to the pressure of Alex outrunning them (So that they won't lose him by stopping the helicopter and letting the sniper aim), then clearly small mistakes are made.

I've said this already in this post, Alex was not running his top speed otherwise the sniper wouldn't have been able to get him in his sights. Considering that it was able, Alex was running "slow" enough to be aimed at, but the bullet was still outpaced.

Cole's attack speed aren't bullet fast. They're faster. You're just downplaying Cole now

They're merely faster than bullets, i'm not downplaying Cole either. I know that his Lightning Storm is lightning speed, his other attacks aren't. The fact that you're not providing proper evidence of anything you claim, it makes me inclined not to believe your claims without evidence. That's not downplaying, that is requesting evidence of the truth. And until you do, we cannot consider it.

If Cole lacks the feats to backup the standards you're putting him on, you simply can't make assumptions of his top potential (when he hasn't demonstrated a remotely close feat to that standard).

I'll use an example of what i'm trying to get through to you to make things clearer:

Example:

John is given a regular M9 hand-gun, Elliot is given a newly invented "lightning-gun". It shoots electricity bolts that replicate the speed of an actual lighting bolt.

Both men are in a firing-range, they decided to settle a contest on which they think is faster, a bullet or a lightning bolt. They set up a camera that can play footage in super-slow motion, so they would be able to see who's was faster.

Elliot's came first by a long-shot, but then John decided to take a test. He would fire the bullet from his M9 and then Elliot would try to shoot the bullet down with his lightning gun.

They took the test, and Elliot failed. It puzzled him because he thought since lightning was faster than a bullet, it must be able to catch it, right? John explained to him that lighting may be faster, but once the bullet took off it was moving too fast to get a pin-point accurate shot, even with something as fast as lightning.

... What?715.. by 62... Are you saying machine gun bullets can travel up to 715 miles in less than a second?I'm sorry I might be an idiot. I am. But I am sure as hell bullets don't travel faster than lightning.And its 62 miles per second. And odd, I'm also getting 3,700 miles per second on my own findings. I think people will have to disregard this speed feat of yours for now.

Considering the fact that it has stated almost everywhere that AK-47 bullets travel up to 715 miles meters per second (did you even look at the Wiki link?) Then yes, that is what i'm saying. Machine-gun bullets are slower than sniper-bullets, which Alex outpaced.

I never said that bullets traveled faster than lightning either, i'm saying that Alex possesses fast enough reaction speed to avoid a Lightning Storm from Cole. That doesn't mean he's faster, but he can potentially avoid it.

#39 Posted by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052:

Considering the fact that it has stated almost everywhere that AK-47 bullets travel up to 715 miles per second (did you even look at the Wiki link?) Then yes, that is what i'm saying. Machine-gun bullets are slower than sniper-bullets, which Alex outpaced.

I never said that bullets traveled faster than lightning either, i'm saying that Alex possesses fast enough reaction speed to avoid a Lightning Storm from Cole. That doesn't mean he's faster, but he can potentially avoid it.

Before I get started on actually working on a reply, I think you mean meters per second. Not miles. Do you know how far a bullet can go if it travels that amount of miles, per second? Just imagine it. No seriously. I think you really mean meters. I'm just really surprised.

I'll start working on a reply now. Expect it from me today or tomorrow

#40 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@undinehuntertitan:

Before I get started on actually working on a reply, I think you mean meters per second. Not miles. Do you know how far a bullet can go if it travels that amount of miles, per second? Just imagine it. No seriously. I think you really mean meters. I'm just really surprised.

Okay wow, i've been terribly mistaken all along if that's true. (I'll find out the exact speed of a bullet in that case, I feel stupid -_-) but even still, Alex can outpace a speeding, pin-point accurate sniper-rifle bullet, and that's without accelerating to his top speed.

That is darn fast, it is still too fast for Cole to get a clear shot at Alex.

#41 Posted by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Yes it is fast. That's what got me so confused. O_o At least we cleared that up. Can you imagine a bullet going at that speed?

But I still think Cole could tag Alex with the assistance of precision. Maybe a shot or two only without it. Let me just prepare my counter.

#42 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Posted by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Okay I'm back. I had to change everything due to that lil error we had. Anyway here it is

Well you still can't deny Cole's 20,000 volt feat on that video. The lightning, when it split a mutant which was beating around other super strong mutants, then sunk an aircraft carrier, I think that would be enough. Let me respond below

Flesh has never deflected tank shells or bullets either, yet Alex's armor and shield can do just that. They would have no problem handling Cole's attacks as it is. His busting out of metal feat is what Alex was doing in the primary stages of acquiring his full-power.

Like i've said, Cole lacks the sufficient power output (not properties) to harm Alex. Sure busting out of metal is nice, but it's still not sufficient.

And for the record, when Alex is completely upgraded he can casually tank hits from the Hunters and smack them around all the same. I know the Hunters can still harm Alex, but that's only if he lets them.

It deflected tank shells? Well I agree with bullets, but tank shells often explode on contact. I'll believe you for it then. But still, this is electricity. I really can't imagine electricity being reflected by flesh, especially when Alex only manipulates biomass. The Ice Titans and Crushers were reasonable. And the Corrupted was a bit of an impossibility when a lightning storm or explosive orbs can pierce through while bolts can.

How about this for power. The one thing I recalled. The Beast. No, not Beast Cole. The other Beast. The one in inFamous 2. It took so much. It left a devastating path on its New Marais. It wasn't even fazed by bullets and rockets. And from that cutscene with the nuke

(All of it. Or just watch some parts where The Beast is on)

22:00 Well modern weapons didn't have effect on it. It needed a nuke to be put down. And even then it regenerated quickly. The actual poison to him is the RFI. And Cole's abilities.However Cole was beating it around at his second game. Pre-end Cole. Even before going overload, Cole was damaging the Beast. Hi storm was also capable of disintigrating half the body of The Beast. His attacks tore up half its face. And in the end, Cole turned The Beast into His Bitch. How's that voltage? That thing that needed a nuke to go down, was beaten around by Cole. The Beast that was ravaging the military throughout the map and wasn't even fazed by rockets. How's that? Enough voltage? And I still need to find out how much electricity is needed to harm a giant man made of lava.

Well I still recall him being knocked back from a lucky shot or combo. And the super soldiers are even moreso annoying. If one is an idiot then they would get hit a lot by the Hunters. It depends on the players usually. If you're bad at inFamous you might not be able to catch soaring enemies with a precision. If you're bad at Prototype you might get hit by rockets or Super Soldier combos. Anyway back to the debate.

This is all nice, but it is basically all what Cole can already do except in the form of ice. Although these extra forms of powers for Cole are nifty, they still lack the same properties that his original powers do needed to harm, or tag Alex.

Can I ask what's a normal reaction from someone when they're running to hit someone with a rocket launcher pointing at you. Then they point it right in front of them. What's the natural reaction?

Cole isn't just going to shoot towards Alex like those rpg users. He'll also use it point blank. Heck Cole using ice powers would surely surprise Alex. And precision would be enough to even the odds. The Ice Grenade used point blank can also provide as a defense.

Actually it doesn't, it just cancels them out. It's still pretty nifty nonetheless, but the Polarity Wall is less defensive than Alex's Shield. Considering that it cannot cancel out or deflect grenades (IIRC)

It does refill his energy. This was more placed if Alex does something like use a gun. Which he'll probably do with the range problemCole's Ice Attacks don't have any form of a water after-effect, stop making up things.I mean after effect. You see ice blocks melt all the time after. The water amount around the area would increase, and a puddle will become deadly if that continues.Think of it this way. Cole began constantly using ice grenades around him and they are now melting like in the game.

8:30. See how the ice shatters and melts? If the area has more puddles, it becomes more of a hazard to Alex, as an electric bolt to a puddle can lethality damage him. Then again one bolt would be enough, if those bolts can harm The Behemoth and The Beast

While this is impressive, Cole would have to gain a very considerable height in order to think of this having an effect on Alex. This is assuming of course that Alex doesn't decide to run up the entire building in seconds whilst Cole is not even halfway up.

Even if Cole did manage to get high enough, his drop speed is easily avoidable.

Or Cole could ice launch away from Mercer, and when he runs towards him, Cole suddenly lands an explosion on the ground, either stunning Alex or making him jump back due to the unexpectedness.It would still be a good move to use to drive off someone if Alex wasn't expecting it.

Impressive for Cole, Alex can slice through chopper armor once with his Blade and the chopper explodes. He'd be able to do that to Cole with his Claws (and the Claws are child's play compared to the Blade), hell even with his bare hands.

Why compare a blade to an electric burst? Its like comparing a lightsaber to a plasma cannon from Halo. Both of them can probably take out vehicles in one hit. But one has a farther range while the other is fast.I did say this was better used when Alex is stunned. Or running towards you. The fast speed and scattering of electricity would be fit

Alex can throw objects at a much greater force, further distance, and higher height with his Base strength than Cole can with Kinetic Pulse. Regardless, the projectiles that Cole sends out at Alex would be countered by Alex's shield, or just simply dodged.

I was aiming more at Cole catching what Alex throws. When you can manipulate magnetism, often times you can catch a lot of metal. Specifically thrown ones. I've seen enough games and anime

Again, impressive but too slow. Alex has escaped from Elizabeth Greene's near death attack at even point blank ranges. All it takes is for him to see one icicle and he'd jump out of the way. His reactions are key here and more than enough to allow him to avoid it. Not to mention that Alex's Ground-Spikes emerge faster than the Icicles do.

I know it seems like i'm focusing too much on Alex's speed and reaction speed, but the two are big factors for him in a fight against Cole. And since Cole lacks both of these (compared to Alex), it just makes it a massive advantage that you cannot ignore.

Sore wa chigau yo!

Cole's reaction speed is just as fast. His attack speed is also a portion above bullets. And when his precison allows him to see bullets move, I'm thinking you're avoiding the real attack speed. In fact Cole could just us a precision very shortly to predict where Alex is going to dodge, then shoot there. Also, fun fact. Bolt Streams if close enough, like half a meter, they home in on enemies.

Cole's shooting isn't as slow as bullets, you already claimed that. I agree that Alex is fast. I do. And he reacts fast. But Cole's reaction isn't bullet slow. You can actually see them hit the enemy the moment you press the trigger, the infamous 1 at least. And the guns in the game aren't exactly as fast. You see bullets in game whizz by. I'm not claiming everyone there bullet times, but I'm claiming that when you see bullets whizzing by in games, often times whatever's faster is faster than bullets. And really, its a lightning bolt. The lightning bolt in the first game where you can shoot out

And why shoot a bullet anyway when it travels too fast to the eye. Isn't reactions the natural response to when something is coming your way and moving away from it? Shooting a bullet in midair is like shooting an arrow with another arrow midflight.

I'm just claiming Alex is not faster than Cole's bolts. They probably have the same reaction too, since Cole had already avoided attacks from the behemoth.Where did I say groundspike there? I said Critical Pain. Anyway its not too slow. And if Alex isn't careful he will be caught by this attack.

Actually that's wrong, they said his minimal capability is building busting+.

What are you talking about? Minimum is frag grenade damage. Maximum on that was building busting. Then again I was referring more to his basic attacks. Not things such as devastators since its 'striking strength'.

Alex casually picks up trucks while he's sprinting, while being shot at. Cole is no different, in fact he is less of a challenge than what Alex faces on a daily basis. Considering that there are countless soldiers/infected, several helicopters/tanks, and military equipment such as turrets, etc. Handling Cole's fire-rate is a piece of cake, such as sweet piece of cake that it's not even a challenge for Alex.

If he can move around as fast as his regular running speed while picking up a truck, then I don't agree. Also, redirect rockets can lock in on the truck faster due to its size. Cole might not hit Alex but he can hit the truck instead. Cole shoots faster than you think.Also, doesn't Alex need the time to speed up to his maximum speed? And that needed straight, or a direct path running. Not dodging around and turning around or jumping in the air. I'm saying Alex would never get to his top speed unless he runs a direct path at Cole without dodging.

That wouldn't be the case, Alex would pick up a garbage truck, use it as a shield (if he even needed to) to get close, and then hurl it into Cole's face, killing him. Cole's blasts haven't faced up against 25+ tons, i'd say at max they can blast away 5 tons worth of metal. Cole would have to dodge it in order to stay alive. Blasting it would be a mistake.

The Blast Shards slipped my mind, apologies. However, since we're using Ionic Charges instead of basing it off of Cole's electricity storage, in Infamous 2 the Ionic Storm only lasts for six seconds (even a little less). I haven't played Infamous 1 in a while, so forgive me if i'm lacking some knowledge for that. But for Infamous 2, IIRC the Ionic Storm only lasts for about five/six seconds.

Alex picking up a truck makes him a bigger target. Heck Cole can probably conduct the electricity to Alex by hitting the truck or make it explode. His rockets/grenades regularly bust vehicles in comics. Regardless, Alex picking up a large and potentially explosive object is not a good idea, since the electricity will hit that instead and spread to him.I thought it was "All feats from the game infamuos 1 and 2".

So, no picking up for Alex. That's a bad idea.

John is given a regular M9 hand-gun, Elliot is given a newly invented "lightning-gun". It shoots electricity bolts that replicate the speed of an actual lighting bolt.

Both men are in a firing-range, they decided to settle a contest on which they think is faster, a bullet or a lightning bolt. They set up a camera that can play footage in super-slow motion, so they would be able to see who's was faster.

Elliot's came first by a long-shot, but then John decided to take a test. He would fire the bullet from his M9 and then Elliot would try to shoot the bullet down with his lightning gun.

They took the test, and Elliot failed. It puzzled him because he thought since lightning was faster than a bullet, it must be able to catch it, right? John explained to him that lighting may be faster, but once the bullet took off it was moving too fast to get a pin-point accurate shot, even with something as fast as lightning.

Where's the part where Eliot can slow down time? I kid. I get what you mean. Elliot has the attack speed, but not the reaction speed to trace the bullet. Its possible to get it, but one has to predict where it goes and have high reaction feat, or can at least slow down time to hit that.Cole happens to have two of thoseAnyway with Alex's movement speed being lowered from the whopping 715 miles per second (Lol, Alex clears countries in less than a day), then the lightning storm will hit due to long range, speed, and damage if he's not at his top speed. But then you showed that last part.And then there' the choice of of stunning Alex to beat him up.

I realize that Cole has a large storage of energy, however you're really boosting it beyond it's limit.

And you're underestimating it. Look at any comic or non scripted battle in the game. The fight with the first Beast. Cole clearly evolved to the point of needing no draining. Until he was weakened.

It doesn't matter if Alex wasn't standing still, he was moving "slow" enough to be in a sniper-rifle's sights, and he still outpaced the bullet. Nonetheless, this speed feat is only the tip of the ice-berg.

Alex can casually dodge tank-shells, that alone requires super-sonic+ reaction speed. (Unless you want to argue with OBD).

Slow? You mean running away under the night while the sniper shoots in a few seconds upon seeing him and not calculating how the trajectory will go? Okay. Heck when he shot the bullet

That's why I brought up OBD. Its outdated. The feats on it are old and needed to be updated. Anyway I think seeing a tank point at you is enough for you to react before it even shoots.

Like I said, those were only soldiers who were standing still firing at Cole. Alex isn't an ordinary soldier, and he isn't going to be standing still. He moves fast enough to dodge pin-point bullets (w/o build-up), and becomes a blur to the human eye after a build-up. I'd need concrete evidence that Cole can tag something faster than a bullet, on the spot.

You can keep throwing out the "Cole's attacks are as fast lightning, so therefore he can tag anybody that speed or below" logic all you want, it doesn't prove he can utilize that attack speed on someone who can outpace bullets.

Spider-Man has dodged attacks from Electro, Spider-Man doesn't need to be faster than lightning. Same applies in this case.

You can see that the ones on the right were running towards him shooting him. Not a bright move but hey, so is Blackwatch. AFTER buildup. That's the aim. Cole will be 'making him dodge' as you say. Alex is not as fast as a bullet, otherwise you'd see him running with bullets. Even then, he still needs that build up and not be focused on dodging. Okay how about this

1:28 Cole's bolts fire around 6-7 per secondWhen they're going that fast they're impossible to dodge for normal people. Alex can outrun most of them, I slightly agree. But then there's always that error one makes. There's that time when an enemy predicts where you go and shoots there. A bolt or two will tag Alex. And it will be enough voltage (as shown above with The Beast) to zap him, make him stop, and spasm, due to him having a conductive body. His whole body will be fried by that voltage. And one hit will halt, or make him trip, and let him be in a shower of bolts and grenades or freezing

You still haven't proven why can't Cole just use precision for a short burst of time. Then let it go and spam wherever Alex is going to end up. You're really avoiding precision here. Cole also predicts where enemies are going you know.You mean with his Spider Sense. Too bad alex doesn't have that. And Cole's attacks are focused on locking on enemies.

Anyway writing a debate reply on the morning isn't fun. Even if its half finished. I still had to reedit it due to some changes. Here it is. I'm not putting it on quotes this time. I like bold better. Ja ne

#44 Edited by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

One more thing.

We already cleared up the fact that Alex is fast and can dodge most of Cole's attacks if he's too far.

But things I want to point out for emphasis

  • Alex will never reach his top speed unless he charges straight at Cole, which is suicide. Dodging to the sides will prevent this. I have my experience with Prototype.
  • Alex picking up vehicles to throw is a bad idea since Cole can destroy them with four hits from his bolts and makes Alex an easier target due to electricity conducting onto him
  • Cole can tag Mercer. He might have fast movement speed, but Cole still has the reaction and capability to predict where Alex is going to end up. Precision, stalker grenades, detonation blasts and sticky homing rockets would also help. Without precision, he'll probably land on 25-55% of his attacks, while with precision, well 95% if he cancels it and then barrages Alex with bolts
  • Cole cannot tag Alex lightning storm if he's on dodge mode. He can only tag Alex with it if he's stationary or stunned
  • Cole's voltage has now been shown to be enough to damage giants unaffected by modern weaponry. That should be enough voltage to lock up Alex with a single bolt.

Now that I think about it. I'm not really as organized in this format. So hard to keep track of all information.

Edit - Also, Pope are we going to allow votes from guys like the one below me? You know, the one who are, oh I don't know, biased and probably didn't read the argument at all?

#45 Posted by OfficialRikudouSennin (631 posts) - - Show Bio

Alex Mercer Wins he has immortality!

#46 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@undinehuntertitan:

Edit - Also, Pope are we going to allow votes from guys like the one below me? You know, the one who are, oh I don't know, biased and probably didn't read the argument at all?

No, that's the point. Whoever gives a vote which isn't based off of the debating quality, doesn't get counted. They vote on who they think debated better for their character, and only that.

I'm sorta busy at the moment, i'll have my post up either some time later on, or tomorrow night (as i'll be busy almost all day tomorrow).

#47 Posted by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Take your time. The sudden change of the time I post kinda messed up our usual schedule, so sorry in advance. And glad to hear that. I can go off with no regrets then.

#48 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@undinehuntertitan:

Alright, ready:

Well you still can't deny Cole's 20,000 volt feat on that video. The lightning, when it split a mutant which was beating around other super strong mutants, then sunk an aircraft carrier, I think that would be enough. Let me respond below

I never denied the 20,000 volt feat in the first place (if I did, I wasn't intended). It is very impressive, but nonetheless it just broke metal chains. While I realize that Cole's power is much greater than breaking chains, it's not very impressive compared to denting 30+ tonne metal with punches.

As for busting out of the airship. That is great and all, but is it really enough to allow him to hurt someone who can take tank shells head on? Tank shells would have no trouble busting through air-craft metal either, so Alex is beyond more than capable of handling air-ship metal busting damage.

It deflected tank shells? Well I agree with bullets, but tank shells often explode on contact. I'll believe you for it then. But still, this is electricity. I really can't imagine electricity being reflected by flesh, especially when Alex only manipulates biomass. The Ice Titans and Crushers were reasonable. And the Corrupted was a bit of an impossibility when a lightning storm or explosive orbs can pierce through while bolts can.

I know the armor is formed out of flesh, but it is NOT regular flesh like you seem to make it out to be. It is flesh that is tough enough to nullify the damage of tank shells almost completely. I'm aware that it is going up against electricity, but the electrical properties inside of Cole's attacks mean nothing if they don't have the power behind them.

Like I said, it's like Wolverine trying to cut through Superman. Adamantium itself could do it, but if there's no force behind Wolverine's strike, it won't accomplish anything.

How about this for power. The one thing I recalled. The Beast. No, not Beast Cole. The other Beast. The one in inFamous 2. It took so much. It left a devastating path on its New Marais. It wasn't even fazed by bullets and rockets. And from that cutscene with the nuke

Well modern weapons didn't have effect on it. It needed a nuke to be put down. And even then it regenerated quickly. The actual poison to him is the RFI. And Cole's abilities.However Cole was beating it around at his second game. Pre-end Cole. Even before going overload, Cole was damaging the Beast. Hi storm was also capable of disintigrating half the body of The Beast. His attacks tore up half its face. And in the end, Cole turned The Beast into His Bitch. How's that voltage? That thing that needed a nuke to go down, was beaten around by Cole. The Beast that was ravaging the military throughout the map and wasn't even fazed by rockets. How's that? Enough voltage? And I still need to find out how much electricity is needed to harm a giant man made of lava.

If you honestly believe that Cole was actually holding his own against the Beast, you're mistaken. John never really wanted to kill Cole, he underestimated Cole so therefore he held back, ALLOWING Cole to whale on him. If he wanted to, John could have hurled a city-leveler at Cole, and that would be it.

Nevertheless, the reason why Cole's attacks were actually damaging the Beast (considering he held back), it is due to Cole having the specific power-set to harm John. Cole's powers comes from Ray Sphere energy. You know, the energy that literally atomized John beforehand?:

(Quote from John himself):

"The Ray Sphere exploding, tearing me apart, atom by atom. But somehow, part of me lingered on. I had to pull myself back together, do you have any idea how hard that is?"

It wouldn't surprise me how Cole was able to damage John, considering that the energy behind Cole's attacks are powered not just by electricity, but mainly from the conduit gene that was activated by the Ray Sphere (the very energy that atomized John). That very gene allows Cole to manipulate electricity, so his power technically revolves around the Ray Sphere. There's no wonder how Cole was able to hurt John.

So just because Cole's attacks were able to hurt the Beast, doesn't mean they'll be able to hurt Alex. Specific attacks will harm the beings that those attacks are designed to hurt.

Cole's attacks aren't designed to hurt Alex, nor does he have what is specifically required to put Alex down. A KO on Mercer is not possible, so Cole can't take that route (not that he'd even know any better).

Well I still recall him being knocked back from a lucky shot or combo. And the super soldiers are even more so annoying. If one is an idiot then they would get hit a lot by the Hunters. It depends on the players usually. If you're bad at inFamous you might not be able to catch soaring enemies with a precision. If you're bad at Prototype you might get hit by rockets or Super Soldier combos. Anyway back to the debate.#

Alex can get knocked back, no doubt about it. However, Hunters are able to knock him back because they have ridiculous striking power and strength (able to knock back cars, and destroy them with a swipe). Super-Soldiers are able to knock him back because they were genetically created with super-strength (slightly below or on par with Hunters).

Cole's regular attacks cannot pack as much force as Hunters, Super-Soldiers, nor Tank Shells. Force is what is needed to send Alex back, not electrical properties.

Can I ask what's a normal reaction from someone when they're running to hit someone with a rocket launcher pointing at you. Then they point it right in front of them. What's the natural reaction?

I don't know what you mean by this.

Cole isn't just going to shoot towards Alex like those rpg users. He'll also use it point blank. Heck Cole using ice powers would surely surprise Alex. And precision would be enough to even the odds. The Ice Grenade used point blank can also provide as a defense.

Alex would have no trouble handling Cole point blank, I don't know why you think he would. Ice-Powers may surprise Alex, but they wouldn't effect nor even worry him. Precision is not allowing Cole to tag Alex, because like i've said even with precision he has trouble tagging opponents who are moving. Alex will be always moving, and at a much greater caliber than anything Cole has tagged.

I'm still waiting for you to show me something that suggests that Cole can tag someone who can move as fast as Alex.

It does refill his energy. This was more placed if Alex does something like use a gun. Which he'll probably do with the range problemCole's Ice Attacks don't have any form of a water after-effect, stop making up things.I mean after effect. You see ice blocks melt all the time after. The water amount around the area would increase, and a puddle will become deadly if that continues.Think of it this way. Cole began constantly using ice grenades around him and they are now melting like in the game.

8:30. See how the ice shatters and melts? If the area has more puddles, it becomes more of a hazard to Alex, as an electric bolt to a puddle can lethality damage him. Then again one bolt would be enough, if those bolts can harm The Behemoth and The Beast

Why would Alex need to use a gun? He doesn't need to worry about the range problem because he can get to Cole in a matter of seconds, and Cole isn't keeping him away if Alex goes straight for him. A lightning storm could be outpaced considering how fast Alex would be running (and he'd reach his top speed in five seconds).

The Ionic Freeze's didn't produce any water at all, they merely melted but they didn't produce water, they faded away. Cole's Ice attacks don't produce any water after-effect.

An electric bolt to a puddle may be lethal to regular opponents, but that doesn't mean they'll apply to Alex.

By the way, where are you getting the idea that Alex would just stand in a puddle, giving Cole time to shoot it? Alex would be moving for most (if not all) of the fight.

Or Cole could ice launch away from Mercer, and when he runs towards him, Cole suddenly lands an explosion on the ground, either stunning Alex or making him jump back due to the unexpectedness.It would still be a good move to use to drive off someone if Alex wasn't expecting it.

Ice-Launch? Alex can jump higher than that without even trying. The Ice-Launch doesn't give Cole enough height to make an explosion, only if he is building height. If he tried to reach a building to do that, Alex would be up there before Cole knew it and then cut him to shreds.

Why compare a blade to an electric burst? Its like comparing a lightsaber to a plasma cannon from Halo. Both of them can probably take out vehicles in one hit. But one has a farther range while the other is fast.I did say this was better used when Alex is stunned. Or running towards you. The fast speed and scattering of electricity would be fit

I'm comparing the effectiveness. Alex's Blade is far more impressive, as he can use it to slice through cars in one hit and he can do it much faster than Cole can.

I was aiming more at Cole catching what Alex throws. When you can manipulate magnetism, often times you can catch a lot of metal. Specifically thrown ones. I've seen enough games and anime

Alright, but even still Alex would be throwing cars as easily as you or me can throw pebble-stones. He could pick up two cars, use one as a shield (if he needed to), allowing him to get close. Once he is, he can throw the shield-car into Cole's face, Cole would need to deflect this giving Alex enough time to hurl the other car into Cole's face while he is distracted, killing him.

Sore wa chigau yo! Cole's reaction speed is just as fast. His attack speed is also a portion above bullets. And when his precison allows him to see bullets move, I'm thinking you're avoiding the real attack speed. In fact Cole could just us a precision very shortly to predict where Alex is going to dodge, then shoot there. Also, fun fact. Bolt Streams if close enough, like half a meter, they home in on enemies.

Cole's shooting isn't as slow as bullets, you already claimed that. I agree that Alex is fast. I do. And he reacts fast. But Cole's reaction isn't bullet slow. You can actually see them hit the enemy the moment you press the trigger, the infamous 1 at least. And the guns in the game aren't exactly as fast. You see bullets in game whizz by. I'm not claiming everyone there bullet times, but I'm claiming that when you see bullets whizzing by in games, often times whatever's faster is faster than bullets. And really, its a lightning bolt. The lightning bolt in the first game where you can shoot out

And why shoot a bullet anyway when it travels too fast to the eye. Isn't reactions the natural response to when something is coming your way and moving away from it? Shooting a bullet in midair is like shooting an arrow with another arrow midflight.

I'm just claiming Alex is not faster than Cole's bolts. They probably have the same reaction too, since Cole had already avoided attacks from the behemoth.Where did I say groundspike there? I said Critical Pain. Anyway its not too slow. And if Alex isn't careful he will be caught by this attack.

Alex has double supersonic reaction speed, since when does Cole have the same? That's wrong. His attack speed is slightly above bullets (they haven't shown to be any faster) I'd need you to prove that his precision allows him to see bullets before I believe it.

The thing is, Cole can't predict where Alex is going to dodge. Alex can instantly shift the direction in which he is jumping, which would be very unexpected:

I know Cole's attacks aren't as slow as bullets, but they haven't shown to be more than only slightly faster. Alex is faster than bullets, and you have yet to prove Cole capable of tagging someone of that caliber.

What are you talking about? Minimum is frag grenade damage. Maximum on that was building busting. Then again I was referring more to his basic attacks. Not things such as devastators since its 'striking strength'.

Did you read the character profile for Alex Mercer on the OBD? What it says exactly in the Destructive Capacity aspect is "at least building busting+". At least, that means minimally.

If he can move around as fast as his regular running speed while picking up a truck, then I don't agree. Also, redirect rockets can lock in on the truck faster due to its size. Cole might not hit Alex but he can hit the truck instead. Cole shoots faster than you think.Also, doesn't Alex need the time to speed up to his maximum speed? And that needed straight, or a direct path running. Not dodging around and turning around or jumping in the air. I'm saying Alex would never get to his top speed unless he runs a direct path at Cole without dodging.

Alex is still very fast while carrying a truck. Granted not as fast, but still fast enough to outpace speeding cars. Speed isn't really the main factor I was aiming for here, it was his mobility whilst carrying 20+ tonnes on his shoulders is the more impressive part.

Alex does need time reach his top speed, but only five seconds. I've counted from videos of Alex running, he reaches his top speed in about five seconds.

Alex picking up a truck makes him a bigger target. Heck Cole can probably conduct the electricity to Alex by hitting the truck or make it explode. His rockets/grenades regularly bust vehicles in comics. Regardless, Alex picking up a large and potentially explosive object is not a good idea, since the electricity will hit that instead and spread to him.I thought it was "All feats from the game infamuos 1 and 2".

So, no picking up for Alex. That's a bad idea.

It doesn't make Alex a bigger target, only the truck. The truck exploding won't affect Alex much at all, so it isn't as bad of an idea as you think. If Cole sees Alex running towards him with a 20+ tonne truck on his shoulders, he isn't going to just stand there and try to blast him, he's going to get the f!ck out of there.

Where's the part where Eliot can slow down time? I kid. I get what you mean. Elliot has the attack speed, but not the reaction speed to trace the bullet. Its possible to get it, but one has to predict where it goes and have high reaction feat, or can at least slow down time to hit that.Cole happens to have two of thoseAnyway with Alex's movement speed being lowered from the whopping 715 miles per second (Lol, Alex clears countries in less than a day), then the lightning storm will hit due to long range, speed, and damage if he's not at his top speed. But then you showed that last part.And then there' the choice of of stunning Alex to beat him up.

Cole doesn't have bullet reaction speed either. His precision doesn't even grant him that unless you can prove it. Even so, I still need something that proves Cole can tag speed of Alex's caliber. Because until then, you can't assume he can.

And you're underestimating it. Look at any comic or non scripted battle in the game. The fight with the first Beast. Cole clearly evolved to the point of needing no draining. Until he was weakened.

When did Cole ever evolve to the point of not needing to recharge? He didn't. He fed off of the Beast's unlimited power supply, that wasn't his own power.

Slow? You mean running away under the night while the sniper shoots in a few seconds upon seeing him and not calculating how the trajectory will go? Okay. Heck when he shot the bullet

That's why I brought up OBD. Its outdated. The feats on it are old and needed to be updated. Anyway I think seeing a tank point at you is enough for you to react before it even shoots.

Alex was running at a speed that allowed a sniper scope to get him in it's sights. Yet he still outpaced the pin-point accuracy of the sniper bullet. He was fast enough to outpace a bullet, and there's nothing that suggests he wasn't.

You can see that the ones on the right were running towards him shooting him. Not a bright move but hey, so is Blackwatch. AFTER buildup. That's the aim. Cole will be 'making him dodge' as you say. Alex is not as fast as a bullet, otherwise you'd see him running with bullets. Even then, he still needs that build up and not be focused on dodging. Okay how about this

Yes but they obviously weren't as fast as Alex. If they were, there would have been a major difference. Alex is fast enough to outpace bullets, which is more than enough to put him above Cole's bolt speed. Considering that Cole hasn't tagged anyone as fast, or faster than Alex.

1:28 Cole's bolts fire around 6-7 per secondWhen they're going that fast they're impossible to dodge for normal people. Alex can outrun most of them, I slightly agree. But then there's always that error one makes. There's that time when an enemy predicts where you go and shoots there. A bolt or two will tag Alex. And it will be enough voltage (as shown above with The Beast) to zap him, make him stop, and spasm, due to him having a conductive body. His whole body will be fried by that voltage. And one hit will halt, or make him trip, and let him be in a shower of bolts and grenades or freezing

Even if a bolt or two tags Alex, they still lack the force behind them to harm him. They won't stop Alex from coming at Cole, not even close. Like I said, the Wolverine's Claws VS Superman example. It's the same case here.

You still haven't proven why can't Cole just use precision for a short burst of time. Then let it go and spam wherever Alex is going to end up. You're really avoiding precision here. Cole also predicts where enemies are going you know.You mean with his Spider Sense. Too bad alex doesn't have that. And Cole's attacks are focused on locking on enemies.

Why would I prove something for the character i'm debating against? That's called the burden of proof fallacy, you're asking me to prove that Cole wouldn't be able to do something, but you need to prove that Cole CAN do that something. The proof rests on you to prove that Cole's precision can tag someone as fast as Alex.

But things I want to point out for emphasis

  • Alex will never reach his top speed unless he charges straight at Cole, which is suicide. Dodging to the sides will prevent this. I have my experience with Prototype.
  • Alex picking up vehicles to throw is a bad idea since Cole can destroy them with four hits from his bolts and makes Alex an easier target due to electricity conducting onto him
  • Cole can tag Mercer. He might have fast movement speed, but Cole still has the reaction and capability to predict where Alex is going to end up. Precision, stalker grenades, detonation blasts and sticky homing rockets would also help. Without precision, he'll probably land on 25-55% of his attacks, while with precision, well 95% if he cancels it and then barrages Alex with bolts
  • Cole cannot tag Alex lightning storm if he's on dodge mode. He can only tag Alex with it if he's stationary or stunned
  • Cole's voltage has now been shown to be enough to damage giants unaffected by modern weaponry. That should be enough voltage to lock up Alex with a single bolt.

  • It only takes him five seconds to reach his top speed. Also, what's stopping Alex from running somewhere else in NYC and then run back to Cole, at his top speed? It isn't suicide considering that Cole won't be able to knock him back without using a Vortex, or a Storm. And yes, Alex can dodge to the sides, lunge towards Cole, and then kick him, killing him.
  • Alex running towards Cole with a vehicle would make him want to dodge Alex rather than confront him. It would be a bad idea as Alex could simply hurl the truck into Cole's face after he got close enough. I know Cole can destroy the truck, but it won't hurt Alex. He has been inside tanks while they blow up, and come out fine.
  • You're lacking the feats to support this claim. All Alex has to do is get close, and then the fight is his. He is too much for Cole to take on up close, and I feel you're creating loopholes around this. It seems that you try to make it seem as though the effects that Cole's attacks have on regular enemies would apply exactly the same to Alex.
  • Um, so you're saying that Cole can't tag Alex if Alex is dodging? If that's the case, I obviously agree with you. But I don't think i'm getting what you mean by this exactly.
  • That's because Cole's energy had the properties to hurt the Beast. As for Bertrand, Cole had to attack his weak spots, he couldn't hurt him regularly. Which gives Alex the advantage here, he has no weak spots.

#49 Edited by UndinehunterTitan (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052

I never denied the 20,000 volt feat in the first place (if I did, I wasn't intended). It is very impressive, but nonetheless it just broke metal chains. While I realize that Cole's power is much greater than breaking chains, it's not very impressive compared to denting 30+ tonne metal with punches.

You didn't. I just affirmed that you won't be able to deny it in the future. And its not fair comparing pure energy to physical attacks either isn't it? Which seems more powerful, a rasenshuriken or a thermobaric bomb? It wasn't exactly chains either, metal bracings actually. And its simple really. Cole's basic attacks can shatter metal too just like Alex. Simple as that.

As for busting out of the airship. That is great and all, but is it really enough to allow him to hurt someone who can take tank shells head on? Tank shells would have no trouble busting through air-craft metal either, so Alex is beyond more than capable of handling air-ship metal busting damage.

It was pure energy. It could at least damage Alex if it can do that, since most mutants can do that much damage. Alex is knocked away and damaged quite significantly by tank shells. What are you saying?

I know the armor is formed out of flesh, but it is NOT regular flesh like you seem to make it out to be. It is flesh that is tough enough to nullify the damage of tank shells almost completely. I'm aware that it is going up against electricity, but the electrical properties inside of Cole's attacks mean nothing if they don't have the power behind them.

Under no circumstances have I ever seen a creature nullify electricity unless its an electric eel or jellyfish. And Alex isn't them. Alex is still mostly biomass inside. His outer layer is a fast regenerating body that quickly uses up his biomass inside if he takes too much damage. He has enough density, or hard enough outer layer to lower the effectiveness of explosion but he still takes damage from it. It doesn't nullify the damage of tank shells, and one shot is damaging.

Like I said, it's like Wolverine trying to cut through Superman. Adamantium itself could do it, but if there's no force behind Wolverine's strike, it won't accomplish anything.

Its the current that counts. Don't you know that's what kills people when they electrify? Not the voltage. Well usually the voltage is an important factor but if the wattage is large enough it can kill people even with low energy. And if you can control the path of where electricity goes, Cole's lightning never gets attracted to metal, then I'm sure there is FORCE inside that.

I won't stick too much to that paragraph. Regardless, you continuously deny Cole's voltage which have enough power to power up black out areas. There's a video of that somewhere in this reply.

If you honestly believe that Cole was actually holding his own against the Beast, you're mistaken. John never really wanted to kill Cole, he underestimated Cole so therefore he held back, ALLOWING Cole to whale on him. If he wanted to, John could have hurled a city-leveler at Cole, and that would be it.

Nevertheless, the reason why Cole's attacks were actually damaging the Beast (considering he held back), it is due to Cole having the specific power-set to harm John. Cole's powers comes from Ray Sphere energy. You know, the energy that literally atomized John beforehand?:

You are in the wrong there actually. Even if John used the city buster attack, all it would've done is power up Cole due to its effects on conduits. Even with its attacks it was unable to beat Cole. Not the gravity hole, not the giant meteoric fireballs, none. John was going all out because he was about to be killed again, and from his belief, the rest of mankind will also die. Who wouldn't go out against a guy with the weapon to kill you? The moment you went with Zeke and Nix, John considered Cole an enemy to be killed since he's the only one who can.

John specifically stated that he was berserk in the first fight with him, and Cole at the end > Cole at the beginning. The Beast was quite clearly stated to be trying to eliminate threats. Do you really think that an agonized, insane being that is trying to eliminate threats to itself would hold back? And in the good ending, Cole was trying to kill him, there’s no way that he’d be holding back.

Ehem... To the second part.

And specific energy only supposed to harm John? Sounds like a loophole. Well, that's quite god and all but that would mean Alex will have to interact with attacks from a different level. A different source of energy that he has no idea of. That would mean he's even more vulnerable to Cole's attacks.

So you either have:

John was weak to Ray Sphere Energy. But in turn this foreign energy is something that isn't normal, thus Alex is more suspectible to it. Its not just electricity anymore, its Ray Sphere Energy that Alex never interacted with

Or

John wasn't weak to Cole's attacks but still beaten. And Alex would be electrocuted just like him due to the fact that Cole has high voltage. Personally this one is more sensible

Either way you placed yourself on quite a situation. How will Alex handle Ray Sphere energy that he never interacted before when he's mostly biomass? If you're going to say he'll shrug it off due to it not having enough power, I advise you to rethink what Ray Sphere energy really is. Its not tailored to deal damage to conduits, otherwise you wouldn't be beating enemy soldiers.

Don't say Ray Sphere Energy is only effective against conduits either. Either way this will affect Alex. One bolt will still be enough to send him into a combo of zappity zap zap in whichever scenario you go.

(Quote from John himself):

"The Ray Sphere exploding, tearing me apart, atom by atom. But somehow, part of me lingered on. I had to pull myself back together, do you have any idea how hard that is?"

It wouldn't surprise me how Cole was able to damage John, considering that the energy behind Cole's attacks are powered not just by electricity, but mainly from the conduit gene that was activated by the Ray Sphere (the very energy that atomized John). That very gene allows Cole to manipulate electricity, so his power technically revolves around the Ray Sphere. There's no wonder how Cole was able to hurt John.

So just because Cole's attacks were able to hurt the Beast, doesn't mean they'll be able to hurt Alex. Specific attacks will harm the beings that those attacks are designed to hurt.

Cole's attacks aren't designed to hurt Alex, nor does he have what is specifically required to put Alex down. A KO on Mercer is not possible, so Cole can't take that route (not that he'd even know any better).

So, it killed him... And he regenerated atom from atom. Then he became the apparition of Ray Sphere itself. I don't know where exactly where you're coming on with this but this looks like a theory. Either way, Cole's powers do not revolve entirely on the Ray Sphere. His story revolved around it, but not his powers which he further developed. He only used the Ray Sphere once, and when he destroyed it, it tore up everything in the dock. And John became the Ray Sphere (if you look at it the certain way). And besides, if Ray Sphere energy was his weakness then why isn't he killing himself everytime he city busts or even shows any signs of struggle with the energy? Either way this is a theory you thought up just like me on my earlier posts. We can't exactly prove this is true. The same as you say with my terawatt lightning bolts feat when its reasonable.

So will you be using that excuse for when I powerscale Cole's level? Thus turning him into a 'they are only strong against each other' scenario?

Either way, didn't you know that lightning bolts kill people in one hit if it strikes them on the head due to the current passing throughout their body? Anyway, your theory here isn't really perfect. Besides, John is made out of those energy and like any other conduit evolved. Saying Cole can only damage John because his powers can, doesn't really make sense when he's taking down behemoths and military

A perfect freeze route would be good, followed by a lightning storm. Ehem, I'm getting off topic.

Alex can get knocked back, no doubt about it. However, Hunters are able to knock him back because they have ridiculous striking power and strength (able to knock back cars, and destroy them with a swipe). Super-Soldiers are able to knock him back because they were genetically created with super-strength (slightly below or on par with Hunters).

Cole's regular attacks cannot pack as much force as Hunters, Super-Soldiers, nor Tank Shells. Force is what is needed to send Alex back, not electrical properties.

Yes, but the jolt is what he needs. He has enough energy to power up a train by standing on it and cook off gasoline and gunpowder while standing still.

4:50. I'm not saying his melee attacks is a good idea. But at least the Gigawatt blades even moreso due to its cutting properties and how it electrifies people

I don't know what you mean by this.

I mean, would you run away from someone about to shoot an rpg right in front of them? Or try to rush and hit them at the very high risk of getting hit? An electric one too.

Alex would have no trouble handling Cole point blank, I don't know why you think he would. Ice-Powers may surprise Alex, but they wouldn't effect nor even worry him. Precision is not allowing Cole to tag Alex, because like i've said even with precision he has trouble tagging opponents who are moving. Alex will be always moving, and at a much greater caliber than anything Cole has tagged.

I'm still waiting for you to show me something that suggests that Cole can tag someone who can move as fast as Alex.

I grow tired of this.

4:47. In half a second a burst of that shot out. Bolt Stream shot out around 5-6 bolts, at a fast speed and a good range.

Look, why are you making a scenario where I have to show that? The fastest enemy in Cole is Kessler, and he moves nigh high faster than Alex can ever. The Ice Men jumping around, even without precision I can effectively hit them midair with bolts. Though they refuse to follow logic and fall when that happens.

What I'm saying is you're making me prove something that is near impossible with your need for evidence. All of Cole's enemies are either too slow, or pure on teleporters which you disregard. There is no middle ground, and Alex's speed is in the middle. Until the arrival of this

Precision. Alex isn't hypersonic speed. He's fast, but really precision is the perfect ability to hit him. It slows down everything around you and shoots out a hypersonic++ bolt which hits the enemy in a quarter of a second, which is from your perspective meaning its even faster.

0:30 . I can tell the precision wasn't well handled by the player. But if you seriously think that the bolt of precision won't target Alex, then I recommend you watch it again. There is no visible changes that could indicate Cole is using precision to the enemies, so Alex won't know when to expect it either. If Alex keeps on moving, he'll get hit if Cole suddenly starts shooting at the path he's heading to then towards him.

8:06 Alex does not move as fast as those bolts and he can dodge some of them, but Cole can quickly adjust where he's shooting out. That allows him to shoot them in bursts that can strike Alex if he's heading to a predictable path. Keeping on moving around? Yeah he's gonna get predictable. And if he dodges, rolls or jumps up, his speed slows down unless he air dashes. Which can leave him helpless to some shockwaves that electrocute enemies

Why do you insist with that? Cole's attack speed outpaces everyone in the game until they start jumping. And that mainly stems from the player control problem.

Cole isn't pointing straight and shooting straight like a gun. He can point at different spots and launch out different attacks at different angles at what he's pointing. Alex can't just sidestep them (not that he will, he's probably gonna try to dodge them) since they attack in various positions. Seriously, Cole has enough voltage to electrify cars and destroy them in a few hits and power up power grids. If there's any loophole here its you with the not enough voltage to harm Alex one.

Why would Alex need to use a gun? He doesn't need to worry about the range problem because he can get to Cole in a matter of seconds, and Cole isn't keeping him away if Alex goes straight for him. A lightning storm could be outpaced considering how fast Alex would be running (and he'd reach his top speed in five seconds).

The Ionic Freeze's didn't produce any water at all, they merely melted but they didn't produce water, they faded away. Cole's Ice attacks don't produce any water after-effect.

An electric bolt to a puddle may be lethal to regular opponents, but that doesn't mean they'll apply to Alex.

By the way, where are you getting the idea that Alex would just stand in a puddle, giving Cole time to shoot it? Alex would be moving for most (if not all) of the fight.

At first he might think of using a gun. I already said rushing in straight at Cole is going to get him a shockwave, a vortex, a point blank rocket, or a rain of bolt streams. Either of those. Not going to be good. And Alex needs to be running straight towards the same direction for five seconds before he can become faster. And what's stopping Cole from summoning the storm at where he thinks Alex is going to happen?

You know, why won't you prevent me from using logic in this? Ice melts so its natural to produce water. Are you really going to say that he just creates ice and then they vanish from thin air despite looking like they're melting? Logic please.

It kinda does. Especially when you're technically naked without leather clothing to protect you like the Vemaak and the First Sons.

I'm aiming for the scenario he accidentally steps on it due to dodging, and Cole using precision to hit the puddle. That would be quite shocking.

Ice-Launch? Alex can jump higher than that without even trying. The Ice-Launch doesn't give Cole enough height to make an explosion, only if he is building height. If he tried to reach a building to do that, Alex would be up there before Cole knew it and then cut him to shreds.

No, he has to try at least. Even in the battle against Heller

Sure he casually jumps high. But he has to have a short charge up in order to do so. And doing that can leave him vulnerable to a stream of bolts. No matter how short the delay, the spam of bolt streams aimed at him will stun him. No need for Precison. Heck a shockwave would do.

I'm comparing the effectiveness. Alex's Blade is far more impressive, as he can use it to slice through cars in one hit and he can do it much faster than Cole can.

Yes and its melee. While Cole is far ranged and scatters electricity.

Alright, but even still Alex would be throwing cars as easily as you or me can throw pebble-stones. He could pick up two cars, use one as a shield (if he needed to), allowing him to get close. Once he is, he can throw the shield-car into Cole's face, Cole would need to deflect this giving Alex enough time to hurl the other car into Cole's face while he is distracted, killing him.

And why would Cole catch that instead of throwing a shockwave or an electric tornado at Alex's face? Why would Cole be dumb enough to NOT shoot that car and turn it into a bomb that will hurt Alex.

Alex has double supersonic reaction speed, since when does Cole have the same? That's wrong. His attack speed is slightly above bullets (they haven't shown to be any faster) I'd need you to prove that his precision allows him to see bullets before I believe it.

The thing is, Cole can't predict where Alex is going to dodge. Alex can instantly shift the direction in which he is jumping, which would be very unexpected:

I know Cole's attacks aren't as slow as bullets, but they haven't shown to be more than only slightly faster. Alex is faster than bullets, and you have yet to prove Cole capable of tagging someone of that caliber.

That's wrong. (Btw, double supersonic reaction is around hypersonic. And I'm sure its a natural reaction for people to run away when they see a tank or move to a position where they won't get hit by a tank shell if its hunting them down before running away)

And what's saying that Alex is faster than Cole's attacks. Maybe they're the same in speed. Have you thought of that? There's also the fact that Cole's attacks can be shot off one after another at different directions, and the bolt streams home in on enemies if close enough.

2:00 They don't fire in one direction. You're clinging with the fact that Cole will continuously shoot in one direction when each shot, he gets closer on hitting Alex. Its not like guns where you fire at a direction then move the barell, which in turn the bullets hit where you're pointing. Its where bolts can be shot off at different points, left to right, then up and down. Kinda like a gun, but faster in terms of aiming. You still haven't told me how Alex is going to accurately figure out where Cole is pointing with his arm

Yes. But with a quick slow down of precision, Cole will figure out what direction Alex is heading. Then he can cancel precision and spam attacks there. Alex won't be expecting that either.

Again with that situation. Look up.

Did you read the character profile for Alex Mercer on the OBD? What it says exactly in the Destructive Capacity aspect is "at least building busting+". At least, that means minimally.

Oh *facepalm* We're talking about two different things. I was pointing at striking strength. You're pointing at destructive capacity, which will include devastators and others. Misunderstanding. My apologies for not being clear

Alex is still very fast while carrying a truck. Granted not as fast, but still fast enough to outpace speeding cars. Speed isn't really the main factor I was aiming for here, it was his mobility whilst carrying 20+ tonnes on his shoulders is the more impressive part.

Alex does need time reach his top speed, but only five seconds. I've counted from videos of Alex running, he reaches his top speed in about five seconds.

While heading towards a linear path.

That's the requirement for his 'acceleration'. Not as in straight in one direction, but at least a linear path. Sure he has mobility, but I don't see him backflipping over rockets while carrying a truck. I respect his speed, but if he keeps running on One Direction, then he's about to be hit with much more accuracy

You can't see him twisting around and moving at the same speed. Of course running like that would leave him open to Cole's rockets, specifically the homing type, or the shockwaves and vortexes. Which will then, he's either hit, or you make him dodge which in turn slows him down and leaves Cole still able to attack. It is not advisable for him to pick up vehicles due to the fact that they can be turned to explosives by Cole due to their large size.

It doesn't make Alex a bigger target, only the truck. The truck exploding won't affect Alex much at all, so it isn't as bad of an idea as you think. If Cole sees Alex running towards him with a 20+ tonne truck on his shoulders, he isn't going to just stand there and try to blast him, he's going to get the f!ck out of there.

Alex can be knocked down by explosions and blunt fists. Sure he gets back up fast, but by then he's being shot by a constant stream of bolts that will overload his nervous system since he still has a brain.

Why exactly? The first thing that will come to his mind is "Holy shit how can he do-wait, that's a perfectly explosive big target right there". The closest to get the fuck out of there is moving to a better position. And even then he can still spam bolts now and then while running

Cole doesn't have bullet reaction speed either. His precision doesn't even grant him that unless you can prove it. Even so, I still need something that proves Cole can tag speed of Alex's caliber. Because until then, you can't assume he can.

Precision isn't an ability that allows him to stop time and see where bullets are in midair. It slows down time to the point that you can see bullets travelling, allowing you to roll away from them.

Do you want me to show you a picture of him with bullets frozen in midair? That I can't grant you. A video of him using it, yes. But not a video where you see bullets. Look since you have infamous why don't you just pop in any of the disc and see what happens if you aim precision at the enemies shooting at you. Never mind that. I read what you said below. If you won't do that though, that would be like if I didn't watch all the videos you showed me. At least give it a try...

I'm still searching for a video online..

When did Cole ever evolve to the point of not needing to recharge? He didn't. He fed off of the Beast's unlimited power supply, that wasn't his own power.

Oh why I have no clue. Maybe at the first part of the game? You know, before he was weakened? And since this is technically pre-end Cole, he was flying around shooting off energy after just getting overloaded. Oh yeah and the Karmic overload

If you mean he fed off The Beast's energy source on the beginning of the game, that is clearly wrong. Then why wasn't that happening in the later game? The Beast had control of its own power and can amplify those who he wish. Not passively everyone around.

Alex was running at a speed that allowed a sniper scope to get him in it's sights. Yet he still outpaced the pin-point accuracy of the sniper bullet. He was fast enough to outpace a bullet, and there's nothing that suggests he wasn't.

Lack of wind calculation, sway of helicopter. But that's not the point anymore, I won't even argue against it. Cole's attacks are faster than bullets anyway.

Even if a bolt or two tags Alex, they still lack the force behind them to harm him. They won't stop Alex from coming at Cole, not even close. Like I said, the Wolverine's Claws VS Superman example. It's the same case here.

They have enough energy to power up substations. One bolt will lock up Alex due to him having a brain, and nervous tissues. He'd still have his organs otherwise how in the world is he talking?

13:35

Clearly Cole has control over how much energy he puts into his shots. Since there are variation of his bolts. That would apply to the amount of volts too.

Stop saying that. Cole's bolts are enough to set a whole car filled with electricity and have enough voltage to kill everyone on a small area in the water.

Why would I prove something for the character i'm debating against? That's called the burden of proof fallacy, you're asking me to prove that Cole wouldn't be able to do something, but you need to prove that Cole CAN do that something. The proof rests on you to prove that Cole's precision can tag someone as fast as Alex.'

Ah sorry then. Still don't know the debating styles

  • It only takes him five seconds to reach his top speed. Also, what's stopping Alex from running somewhere else in NYC and then run back to Cole, at his top speed? It isn't suicide considering that Cole won't be able to knock him back without using a Vortex, or a Storm. And yes, Alex can dodge to the sides, lunge towards Cole, and then kick him, killing him.

Running at a linear path. He can be either predictable for a moment and become fast, but one bolt will be enough to cancel that. As I said, if the bolt has enough energy to shatter metal of aircraft carrier ships, then it should have enough voltage to do that to human skin. Biomass will never be able to block electricity, only hamper it.

Now that is smarter, running from a distance. But that's also stupid. Why would Alex, a close combat fighter run away from a ranged fighter? He could get tagged on his way and leave Cole to recharge, and the only reasons I see him doing it is to consume. Cole can still knock Alex back with shockwaves and rockets. The moment Alex dodges, he slows down. The moment he lunges at cole, his point blank shockwaves become more accurate and direct. Enemies are clearly caught in some sort of graviational field whenever they're hit by the shockwave, so Alex won't be air dashing at all.

Also, once Alex is on a vortex, what exactly is stopping Cole from raining sticky rockets on him, especially with him being knocked around by the electric tornado?

  • Alex running towards Cole with a vehicle would make him want to dodge Alex rather than confront him. It would be a bad idea as Alex could simply hurl the truck into Cole's face after he got close enough. I know Cole can destroy the truck, but it won't hurt Alex. He has been inside tanks while they blow up, and come out fine.

Explosions knock around Alex. And vehicles conduct electricity. No he does not come out of them fine. He takes damage. I had enough experience trying to fly my way out of the city when that happens. He does not come out unharmed. Besides, its almost a natural thing for Cole to stun an enemy when they try to get close with either bolts, sticky grenades, or shockwaves. What you're saying is not how Cole thinks.

  • You're lacking the feats to support this claim. All Alex has to do is get close, and then the fight is his. He is too much for Cole to take on up close, and I feel you're creating loopholes around this. It seems that you try to make it seem as though the effects that Cole's attacks have on regular enemies would apply exactly the same to Alex.

Point blank shockwaves. I already said it was enough to counter Alex due to its large range and fast speed. Alex isn't heavy as a tank, otherwise he would never had the ability to airdash and glide. And you're denying those effects when Alex is closer to a natural human than you think. You're also creating loopholes with the Ray Sphere energy harming John and such.

I already said Cole can alter with what attacks he use. Surprising Alex with suddenly a long distance bolt instead of those three pincer bolts. Precision will slow down Alex enough. He's still fast as in running speed, but he can't just cancel out his momentum to turn a different direction, he'll be hit by a precision bolt mid dodge. And FYI, when you can just slow down your mind's perspection of time, I really doubt shooting electric bolts need energy

  • Um, so you're saying that Cole can't tag Alex if Alex is dodging? If that's the case, I obviously agree with you. But I don't think i'm getting what you mean by this exactly.

He can only tag Alex with the storm is he's heading towards him at a predictable path, or stunned or frozen. That's all really. With its fast calldown. Its a given unless Alex is jumping around, and then the sticky rockets would be the goal here. By the way, tried out the redirect rockets, they move a bit slower than regular rockets, but the moment you redirect them, they go four times as fast.

  • That's because Cole's energy had the properties to hurt the Beast. As for Bertrand, Cole had to attack his weak spots, he couldn't hurt him regularly. Which gives Alex the advantage here, he has no weak spots.

Ray Sphere Energy is a foreign energy. If you say its only supposed to be effective against conduits then something is wrong. Alex isn't exactly out of weak spots when his entire body is naked to the skin. The only things that should be nullifuying the electric bolts are either the shield or armor. And with shield you can just get around it via pincer bolt and sticky rockets or shockwaves. With the armor, Alex still gets knocked around by rockets and without his dodging manuevers he's much more predictable.

You say I'm creating loopholes, when you are also doing the same. Recently with The Beast. Then again you can also describe creating loopholes as figuring out the logic behind something. Its a natural thing really. For us to feel threatened when we are losing. I know we both have that feeling right now on this debate.

...

In advance if I began to get offensive then I apologize. Passion can do that to a gamer.. But I still stand with Cole.

I already submitted to Alex being as fast as bullets. But my argument of Cole shooting bolts at where he thinks Alex is there. Counter it if you will.

Your Beast only harmed by Ray Sphere Energy will not exactly be a good idea since that makes Cole deadlier to non-humans due to his strange energy, and his voltage is still there. Please don't deny Cole of his rightful voltage which was enough to power up generators. They are bound to affect Alex due to the wattage and volts.

Once you remove gameplay mechanics, then every enemy that Cole hits in the head will be fried simply due to its current travelling through their everything. Alex won't be an exception and Cole will have enough volts and bolts to get through his body

Also, I realized debating in this style is not my thing. I rather prefer the quick swift replies in threads. That at least leaves me time to write up fics

#50 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@undinehuntertitan:

You didn't. I just affirmed that you won't be able to deny it in the future. And its not fair comparing pure energy to physical attacks either isn't it? Which seems more powerful, a rasenshuriken or a thermobaric bomb? It wasn't exactly chains either, metal bracings actually. And its simple really. Cole's basic attacks can shatter metal too just like Alex. Simple as that.

I'm not necessarily comparing the forms of attacks, i'm comparing who has demonstrated more with their attacks, which goes to Alex. I know Cole's attacks can shatter metal, but doing so would use up even a small portion of his energy, where as Alex can simply punch and it doesn't affect anything. In other words, it's more efficient for Alex.

It was pure energy. It could at least damage Alex if it can do that, since most mutants can do that much damage. Alex is knocked away and damaged quite significantly by tank shells. What are you saying?

I'm saying that since Alex can take tank shells, he can take Cole's "air-ship metal busting" attacks too. If armored Alex can nullify the damage of a tank shell almost completely, then what good is knocking him back going to do? For example, I can shove someone over, but that doesn't mean they'll be hurt? No.

nder no circumstances have I ever seen a creature nullify electricity unless its an electric eel or jellyfish. And Alex isn't them. Alex is still mostly biomass inside. His outer layer is a fast regenerating body that quickly uses up his biomass inside if he takes too much damage. He has enough density, or hard enough outer layer to lower the effectiveness of explosion but he still takes damage from it. It doesn't nullify the damage of tank shells, and one shot is damaging.

Why are you comparing fictional characters to real life creatures? They obviously won't possess the same attributes, considering it's fiction and doesn't always make sense. You're trying to factor science into fictional battles too much.

Alex's armor does nullify the damage of tank shells, it nullifies the damage of everything in fact. That's what the armor's sole purpose is, to reduce the damage that Alex would normally take. You know, like actual armor.

(Wiki Descriptions):

The Armor is the second defensive power of Alex Mercer. While in this form, he takes less damage, but the added density results in loss of movement speed and overall agility.

The Armor provides an alternative to the Shield. Unlike the Shield, which completely negates minor frontal damage at the cost of having a temporarily finite ability to absorb punishment, the Armor significantly reduces all-round damage taken by Alex without losing effectiveness.

Even though it cannot deflect stray bullets like the shield, it is still ideal for close combat, allowing Alex to go toe to toe with the strongest foes without quickly succumbing to large amounts of damage. Conversely, running from a fight is somewhat more difficult, and Alex's ability to dodge attacks is hampered.

The only weaknesses of the armor is the reduced mobility, but that's it. All in all it reduces damage altogether.

Its the current that counts. Don't you know that's what kills people when they electrify? Not the voltage. Well usually the voltage is an important factor but if the wattage is large enough it can kill people even with low energy. And if you can control the path of where electricity goes, Cole's lightning never gets attracted to metal, then I'm sure there is FORCE inside that.

The thing is, Alex isn't a regular person, he doesn't have the same vulnerabilities. In fact, the only thing human about him is his physical appearance, but that's only because the virus consumed his body. So the effect that electricity has on people doesn't apply to him at all.

You need to prove that Cole has force behind his basic attacks that equate to hurting Alex. You've just been going by the scientific conjecture and assumptions that Cole's electrical properties can harm Alex, without actually proving anything.

I have proven that Alex can kill Cole with a single punch, because in terms of Cole's durability. This is the losing factor going for him here, he lacks the ability to tank any of Mercer's attacks as well as dealing the damage to truly harm Alex either. All that Alex has to do is get close, and that is end-game for Cole there.

I won't stick too much to that paragraph. Regardless, you continuously deny Cole's voltage which have enough power to power up black out areas. There's a video of that somewhere in this reply.

There's a difference between Cole powering up areas with no electricity, and actually damaging opponents. He is able to power up substations because well, he is electrokinetic.

That doesn't apply to damaging opponents, because he needs force behind the attacks in order to harm them. He doesn't need to have force in order to power something up, because that would most likely destroy the substation.

You are in the wrong there actually. Even if John used the city buster attack, all it would've done is power up Cole due to its effects on conduits. Even with its attacks it was unable to beat Cole. Not the gravity hole, not the giant meteoric fireballs, none. John was going all out because he was about to be killed again, and from his belief, the rest of mankind will also die. Who wouldn't go out against a guy with the weapon to kill you? The moment you went with Zeke and Nix, John considered Cole an enemy to be killed since he's the only one who can.

John specifically stated that he was berserk in the first fight with him, and Cole at the end > Cole at the beginning. The Beast was quite clearly stated to be trying to eliminate threats. Do you really think that an agonized, insane being that is trying to eliminate threats to itself would hold back? And in the good ending, Cole was trying to kill him, there’s no way that he’d be holding back.

Wow, okay. There's so many flaws in this statement I don't know where exactly to begin:

  • Cole isn't taking a city-buster from John at all. In the first encounter with the Beast, Cole was near-death after John hit him with two small Ray Field Blasts that leveled nothing more than a fraction of a dock:

(2:46 - 3:06)

  • John never used a Gravity Vortex on Cole, he only manipulated the Gravity around him in order to keep him up in the air.
  • Cole was near-death after the small Ray Field Blasts from John (the meteoric fire-balls), so I don't know why you're assuming he wasn't hurt.
  • John wasn't going all-out at all, Cole wouldn't have the power to kill him either.
  • Cole could never kill John by himself, he needed the RFI to do that.
  • John was berserk yes, but that doesn't mean he was going all out. If he was berserk he wouldn't know how to think straight. When Cole fell into the water and then left Empire City. John leveled the city in a second with one attack. He clearly didn't go all out against Cole, because Cole would have never won if he did.

Ehem... To the second part.

And specific energy only supposed to harm John? Sounds like a loophole. Well, that's quite god and all but that would mean Alex will have to interact with attacks from a different level. A different source of energy that he has no idea of. That would mean he's even more vulnerable to Cole's attacks.

How is it a loophole? The Ray Sphere is what atomized John from the start, and that's where Cole's energy comes from. It's not a different level of energy, it's just different. It was specifically designed to hurt John, not Alex. It doesn't mean he's vulnerable to Cole's attacks at all. You can't go by the "Cole's attacks can hurt the Beast so that means that they can hurt Alex" logic, because those attacks were coming from the energy that atomized John from the start.

So you either have:

John was weak to Ray Sphere Energy. But in turn this foreign energy is something that isn't normal, thus Alex is more suspectible to it. Its not just electricity anymore, its Ray Sphere Energy that Alex never interacted with

Or

John wasn't weak to Cole's attacks but still beaten. And Alex would be electrocuted just like him due to the fact that Cole has high voltage. Personally this one is more sensible

Either way you placed yourself on quite a situation. How will Alex handle Ray Sphere energy that he never interacted before when he's mostly biomass? If you're going to say he'll shrug it off due to it not having enough power, I advise you to rethink what Ray Sphere energy really is. Its not tailored to deal damage to conduits, otherwise you wouldn't be beating enemy soldiers.

Don't say Ray Sphere Energy is only effective against conduits either. Either way this will affect Alex. One bolt will still be enough to send him into a combo of zappity zap zap in whichever scenario you go.

The Ray Sphere energy is only really effective against Conduits though. It's where their powers come from, they can hurt one another with the energy. Alex is not a conduit, so they won't have the same effect at all. It's like trying to kill Cole with the Blood-Tox Gas, it's useless against him because he is not virus like Alex, the same applies to my case.

Cole's attacks still don't possess enough power to harm Alex, only his Ionic Storm & Vortex will be the main effect here. Even then Alex would just kill, consume, and then come for Cole fully restored. Cole cannot put him down for good, and that's what is required to win the fight against Alex. If he had a nuke's radius and destructive force, then he could win, but only then.

So, it killed him... And he regenerated atom from atom. Then he became the apparition of Ray Sphere itself. I don't know where exactly where you're coming on with this but this looks like a theory. Either way, Cole's powers do not revolve entirely on the Ray Sphere. His story revolved around it, but not his powers which he further developed. He only used the Ray Sphere once, and when he destroyed it, it tore up everything in the dock. And John became the Ray Sphere (if you look at it the certain way). And besides, if Ray Sphere energy was his weakness then why isn't he killing himself everytime he city busts or even shows any signs of struggle with the energy? Either way this is a theory you thought up just like me on my earlier posts. We can't exactly prove this is true. The same as you say with my terawatt lightning bolts feat when its reasonable.

So will you be using that excuse for when I powerscale Cole's level? Thus turning him into a 'they are only strong against each other' scenario?

Either way, didn't you know that lightning bolts kill people in one hit if it strikes them on the head due to the current passing throughout their body? Anyway, your theory here isn't really perfect. Besides, John is made out of those energy and like any other conduit evolved. Saying Cole can only damage John because his powers can, doesn't really make sense when he's taking down behemoths and military

A perfect freeze route would be good, followed by a lightning storm. Ehem, I'm getting off topic.

Cole can damage John was his power-set can. His attacks still harm military and other beings, but not to the same effect. Also, he could only hurt Bertrand by attacking his weak spots. He couldn't even kill him on his own, he needed a lot of prep time, the entire rebel force, Nix and Kuo.

Alex took down Elizabeth Greene by himself, in a random encounter. So that goes to show a lot.

Yes, but the jolt is what he needs. He has enough energy to power up a train by standing on it and cook off gasoline and gunpowder while standing still

Like I said, powering something is different than damaging it.

4:50. I'm not saying his melee attacks is a good idea. But at least the Gigawatt blades even moreso due to its cutting properties and how it electrifies people

"How it electrifies people". That doesn't apply to Alex.

I mean, would you run away from someone about to shoot an rpg right in front of them? Or try to rush and hit them at the very high risk of getting hit? An electric one too.

Ah, okay. Alex would rush towards Cole, then Cole would fire the rocket at him. Alex would jump out of the way, lunge for Cole, and then kick him.

I grow tired of this.

4:47. In half a second a burst of that shot out. Bolt Stream shot out around 5-6 bolts, at a fast speed and a good range.

Look, why are you making a scenario where I have to show that? The fastest enemy in Cole is Kessler, and he moves nigh high faster than Alex can ever. The Ice Men jumping around, even without precision I can effectively hit them midair with bolts. Though they refuse to follow logic and fall when that happens.

What I'm saying is you're making me prove something that is near impossible with your need for evidence. All of Cole's enemies are either too slow, or pure on teleporters which you disregard. There is no middle ground, and Alex's speed is in the middle. Until the arrival of this

Precision. Alex isn't hypersonic speed. He's fast, but really precision is the perfect ability to hit him. It slows down everything around you and shoots out a hypersonic++ bolt which hits the enemy in a quarter of a second, which is from your perspective meaning its even faster.

In that video his bolts looked a lot slower than bullets. Like I said, tagging teleporters doesn't mean anything because teleportation has nothing to do with your speed.

Precision still isn't enough to allow Cole to tag Alex. I know you can't provide the proof, but since you can't, we can't assume things. Cole needs to have a mere scrape of evidence that suggests he can tag someone of Alex's caliber. Since he hasn't demonstrated to contend with that speed, one cannot assume he can.

0:30 . I can tell the precision wasn't well handled by the player. But if you seriously think that the bolt of precision won't target Alex, then I recommend you watch it again. There is no visible changes that could indicate Cole is using precision to the enemies, so Alex won't know when to expect it either. If Alex keeps on moving, he'll get hit if Cole suddenly starts shooting at the path he's heading to then towards him.

I see your point on Cole shooting ahead of where Alex is going to run to. Even if it hits him, he isn't getting a pinpoint head shot and if he did it wouldn't harm Alex the way it does humans.

8:06 Alex does not move as fast as those bolts and he can dodge some of them, but Cole can quickly adjust where he's shooting out. That allows him to shoot them in bursts that can strike Alex if he's heading to a predictable path. Keeping on moving around? Yeah he's gonna get predictable. And if he dodges, rolls or jumps up, his speed slows down unless he air dashes. Which can leave him helpless to some shockwaves that electrocute enemies

Why do you insist with that? Cole's attack speed outpaces everyone in the game until they start jumping. And that mainly stems from the player control problem.

Cole isn't pointing straight and shooting straight like a gun. He can point at different spots and launch out different attacks at different angles at what he's pointing. Alex can't just sidestep them (not that he will, he's probably gonna try to dodge them) since they attack in various positions. Seriously, Cole has enough voltage to electrify cars and destroy them in a few hits and power up power grids. If there's any loophole here its you with the not enough voltage to harm Alex one.

Those bolts weren't fast at all, not even proper bullet speed. Alex would have no trouble avoiding those. I can't believe you think that Alex would have trouble outpacing them, when he can run as fast as this:

Cole has nowhere near the accuracy to tag Alex when he is running, even with precision. He cannot pinpoint a target moving that fast. Alex isn't going to be running around pointlessly in circles either, he has enough distance from the starting point (Opposite ends of that street is more than enough to achieve a five second acceleration) to reach his top speed.

Once he does, he'll be going so fast Cole won't be able to stop him, Alex would bumrush Cole, grab him and Cole wouldn't be able to get out of his grip. Or just use him as a rag-doll, caving Cole's skull into the road and what not.

Cole is not fast enough to adjust where he is aiming to either before Alex gets to him. Alex's movement is unpredictable to Cole, and Cole isn't going cop his movements in mid-fight either.

This argument can go on forever, but you're lacking in the feats and back up for your claims of how Cole is going to tag Alex, where as I have the feats and backup as to why Alex is too fast for Cole to tag. Since it's impossible for you to provide feats for your case, it's nothing more than speculation.

At first he might think of using a gun. I already said rushing in straight at Cole is going to get him a shockwave, a vortex, a point blank rocket, or a rain of bolt streams. Either of those. Not going to be good. And Alex needs to be running straight towards the same direction for five seconds before he can become faster. And what's stopping Cole from summoning the storm at where he thinks Alex is going to happen?

Running into Cole isn't a problem unless he uses a Vortex, but that's it.

A Shockwave? Alex is too heavy to knock off his feet (especially when sprinting) seeming how Cole's shockwaves fail to knock over even remotely large opponents (The Ice-Soldiers who can create Ice-Towers beneath themselves.

A PB Rocket? May knock Alex off his feet, but he'd get back up the second after he was hit, then grab Cole.

A Rain of Bolt Streams? Blocked by his shield, or simply avoided.

Nothing is stopping Cole from unleashing a lightning storm to where he thinks Alex is going to be, but then what's stopping Alex from running somewhere else to reach his top speed, and then run back around to Cole, while he's at his top speed? He doesn't always need to be close to him. Alex could gain a distance where Cole can't sense him, run up a building and then use the Blade to air-slice Cole from afar.

You know, why won't you prevent me from using logic in this? Ice melts so its natural to produce water. Are you really going to say that he just creates ice and then they vanish from thin air despite looking like they're melting? Logic please.

Too bad, fiction defies logic by definition. Cole's Ice Attacks produce absolutely no water, so why are you making false assumptions? They never happened. It's like me saying why can't Alex form giant wings out of his biomass?

It kinda does. Especially when you're technically naked without leather clothing to protect you like the Vemaak and the First Sons.

No it doesn't. But nonetheless, you act as if Alex is going to stand in a puddle for some reason.

I'm aiming for the scenario he accidentally steps on it due to dodging, and Cole using precision to hit the puddle. That would be quite shocking.

Cole isn't nearly fast enough to use precision, hit the puddle before Alex leaves the puddle in no longer than a second.

No, he has to try at least. Even in the battle against Heller

Sure he casually jumps high. But he has to have a short charge up in order to do so. And doing that can leave him vulnerable to a stream of bolts. No matter how short the delay, the spam of bolt streams aimed at him will stun him. No need for Precison. Heck a shockwave would do.

Heller exceeded Mercer in every way, of course he had to try against him.

He doesn't have to charge to make a high jump either, he can casually jump higher than Cole's Ice Launch. In the following video, he jumps many times and all except maybe his first jump (it would be just as high) are higher than the Ice Launch.

(0:12 - 0:24)

Yes and its melee. While Cole is far ranged and scatters electricity.

True, but it is still more effective than his burst. Alex cannot shoot any raw projectiles, so I have to compare the effectiveness of their abilities.

And why would Cole catch that instead of throwing a shockwave or an electric tornado at Alex's face? Why would Cole be dumb enough to NOT shoot that car and turn it into a bomb that will hurt Alex.

Cole can't catch it for one thing, he can only deflect it. Which would give Alex time to use the second car to kill Cole. He could only keep Alex away if he launched an Ionic Vortex, but that's it.

Actually no, it won't hurt Alex if Cole explodes the car. Alex has been inside tanks while they explode, and it came out unscathed:

(1:31 - 1:36)

(Before you say his health was affected, check before he was in the tank. His health was already affected before hand, and it wasn't affected at all when the tank blew up).

That's wrong. (Btw, double supersonic reaction is around hypersonic. And I'm sure its a natural reaction for people to run away when they see a tank or move to a position where they won't get hit by a tank shell if its hunting them down before running away)

Your reactions only have to be 344 m/s (less than half as fast as a sniper-bullet) to be considered super-sonic. Alex is at least double this. Even if he wasn't double super-sonic, he is at least super-sonic+.

http://outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.com/supersonic

And what's saying that Alex is faster than Cole's attacks. Maybe they're the same in speed. Have you thought of that? There's also the fact that Cole's attacks can be shot off one after another at different directions, and the bolt streams home in on enemies if close enough.

2:00 They don't fire in one direction. You're clinging with the fact that Cole will continuously shoot in one direction when each shot, he gets closer on hitting Alex. Its not like guns where you fire at a direction then move the barell, which in turn the bullets hit where you're pointing. Its where bolts can be shot off at different points, left to right, then up and down. Kinda like a gun, but faster in terms of aiming. You still haven't told me how Alex is going to accurately figure out where Cole is pointing with his arm

Yes. But with a quick slow down of precision, Cole will figure out what direction Alex is heading. Then he can cancel precision and spam attacks there. Alex won't be expecting that either.

Alex doesn't need to be faster than Cole's attacks, but he is fast enough to be too fast for Cole to get a pin-point shot at, even with precision.

I know that Cole can switch directions but it's a very slim chance that he will get a shot on Alex if he switches, as it would be a speculative aim. He can't pin-point a decent shot, and randomly spamming bolts is going to do nothing to Alex.

Oh *facepalm* We're talking about two different things. I was pointing at striking strength. You're pointing at destructive capacity, which will include devastators and others. Misunderstanding. My apologies for not being clear

No worries. At least we cleared that up.

While heading towards a linear path.

That's the requirement for his 'acceleration'. Not as in straight in one direction, but at least a linear path. Sure he has mobility, but I don't see him backflipping over rockets while carrying a truck. I respect his speed, but if he keeps running on One Direction, then he's about to be hit with much more accuracy

I know that, but like I said he can simply run off to somewhere Cole can't get him. And then run back, at his top speed. While at his fastest Cole isn't handling him at all, he'll be missing every shot and Alex could blitz him if he isn't careful. It only takes him five seconds to reach his top speed anyway, so it's really nothing to worry about.

You can't see him twisting around and moving at the same speed. Of course running like that would leave him open to Cole's rockets, specifically the homing type, or the shockwaves and vortexes. Which will then, he's either hit, or you make him dodge which in turn slows him down and leaves Cole still able to attack. It is not advisable for him to pick up vehicles due to the fact that they can be turned to explosives by Cole due to their large size.

I explained most of this in my previous statements. As for the vehicles, I countered this as well. Alex wouldn't be hurt as he has been inside exploding tanks, and received no damage.

Alex can be knocked down by explosions and blunt fists. Sure he gets back up fast, but by then he's being shot by a constant stream of bolts that will overload his nervous system since he still has a brain.

His brain regenerates just like any other part of him. He is shot in the head by bullets and his brain has never malfunctioned or anything.The only time it was, is when he was reminded of Penn Station (where the virus consumed him):

(4:51 - 4:56) You can clearly see Alex getting shot rapidly in the head, to no avail:

Why exactly? The first thing that will come to his mind is "Holy shit how can he do-wait, that's a perfectly explosive big target right there". The closest to get the fuck out of there is moving to a better position. And even then he can still spam bolts now and then while running

Countered above.

Precision isn't an ability that allows him to stop time and see where bullets are in midair. It slows down time to the point that you can see bullets travelling, allowing you to roll away from them.

Do you want me to show you a picture of him with bullets frozen in midair? That I can't grant you. A video of him using it, yes. But not a video where you see bullets.

Well if you can't see the bullets then how can you assume he can see them moving? If you can, moving to the point where he could shoot them while they're moving?

Look since you have infamous why don't you just pop in any of the disc and see what happens if you aim precision at the enemies shooting at you. Never mind that. I read what you said below. If you won't do that though, that would be like if I didn't watch all the videos you showed me. At least give it a try...

I'm still searching for a video online..

Give what a try? I've watched every video you've presented me, and I have my own knowledge of Cole from playing both Infamous 1, and 2, on both Karma settings. I've debated for Cole on other CAVs twice before, so I know how fast he can tag. And from my knowledge, his attacks have never been fast enough to tag anyone even slightly below Alex's speed.

I need evidence before I can consider something.

Oh why I have no clue. Maybe at the first part of the game? You know, before he was weakened? And since this is technically pre-end Cole, he was flying around shooting off energy after just getting overloaded. Oh yeah and the Karmic overload

If you mean he fed off The Beast's energy source on the beginning of the game, that is clearly wrong. Then why wasn't that happening in the later game? The Beast had control of its own power and can amplify those who he wish. Not passively everyone around.

He fed off of John's power because Ray Sphere energy is drawn to a Conduit. Since John is an unlimited source of RF energy, there's no wonder how Cole didn't need to recharge. John had no control over himself at the first battle, so he wasn't aware who he was supplying energy to.

Even if Cole did evolve to not needing to drain electricity anymore, that isn't the case here.

Lack of wind calculation, sway of helicopter. But that's not the point anymore, I won't even argue against it. Cole's attacks are faster than bullets anyway.

None of that was stated or implied so that is mere speculation. Alex is faster than bullets too, and has proven himself fast enough to dodge attacks at Cole's attack speed.

They have enough energy to power up substations. One bolt will lock up Alex due to him having a brain, and nervous tissues. He'd still have his organs otherwise how in the world is he talking?

Both of these points were countered. Powering something is different to damaging it. Alex may have a brain but it regenerates itself like every other part of his body that receives damage.

13:35

Clearly Cole has control over how much energy he puts into his shots. Since there are variation of his bolts. That would apply to the amount of volts too.

Stop saying that. Cole's bolts are enough to set a whole car filled with electricity and have enough voltage to kill everyone on a small area in the water.

Sure it can destroy a car, something that Alex can take like nothing. It kills people in water because water is a conductor of electricity, it has nothing to do with the power of Cole's attacks. Throw a television set into a bathtub while you're in it, and you'll be fried.

Running at a linear path. He can be either predictable for a moment and become fast, but one bolt will be enough to cancel that. As I said, if the bolt has enough energy to shatter metal of aircraft carrier ships, then it should have enough voltage to do that to human skin. Biomass will never be able to block electricity, only hamper it.

Now that is smarter, running from a distance. But that's also stupid. Why would Alex, a close combat fighter run away from a ranged fighter? He could get tagged on his way and leave Cole to recharge, and the only reasons I see him doing it is to consume. Cole can still knock Alex back with shockwaves and rockets. The moment Alex dodges, he slows down. The moment he lunges at cole, his point blank shockwaves become more accurate and direct. Enemies are clearly caught in some sort of graviational field whenever they're hit by the shockwave, so Alex won't be air dashing at all.

If Alex needed to consume, then that gives him a reasons to run off and back again. Alex won't be affected by a shockwave as he is too heavy, a rocket would blow him back but they wouldn't harm him.

Also, once Alex is on a vortex, what exactly is stopping Cole from raining sticky rockets on him, especially with him being knocked around by the electric tornado?

  • Alex running towards Cole with a vehicle would make him want to dodge Alex rather than confront him. It would be a bad idea as Alex could simply hurl the truck into Cole's face after he got close enough. I know Cole can destroy the truck, but it won't hurt Alex. He has been inside tanks while they blow up, and come out fine.

Explosions knock around Alex. And vehicles conduct electricity. No he does not come out of them fine. He takes damage. I had enough experience trying to fly my way out of the city when that happens. He does not come out unharmed. Besides, its almost a natural thing for Cole to stun an enemy when they try to get close with either bolts, sticky grenades, or shockwaves. What you're saying is not how Cole thinks.

IIRC, Cole cannot cause any further damage to an enemy whilst they're caught in the Vortex. Even so, he does not the accuracy to hit Alex whilst he's in a tornado, considering the speed that he'd be going at. Not to mention, the Vortex only lasts six seconds and is enough for Alex to recover from.

I've countered the second point already.

Point blank shockwaves. I already said it was enough to counter Alex due to its large range and fast speed. Alex isn't heavy as a tank, otherwise he would never had the ability to airdash and glide. And you're denying those effects when Alex is closer to a natural human than you think. You're also creating loopholes with the Ray Sphere energy harming John and such.

I already said Cole can alter with what attacks he use. Surprising Alex with suddenly a long distance bolt instead of those three pincer bolts. Precision will slow down Alex enough. He's still fast as in running speed, but he can't just cancel out his momentum to turn a different direction, he'll be hit by a precision bolt mid dodge. And FYI, when you can just slow down your mind's perspection of time, I really doubt shooting electric bolts need energy

The Shockwaves are still too light to be able to push back Alex. It's fiction, it doesn't make sense. Hulk is heavier than a tank yet he is able to leap at incredible speeds. Same applies to Alex. I'm not denying anything, Alex isn't human apart from his appearance, and his ability to think and talk, but that's it. The Ray Sphere energy hurting John isn't a loophole, it is the very source of energy that almost destroyed John in the first place. It allows Conduits to affect each other greatly, because their power comes from the same source.

Sure he can surprise him but it won't affect him. I keep hearing the same "precision will allow Cole to tag Alex" argument, but it's lacking in evidence for considerations, which is needed for the argument to be valid. That last sentence is pure conjecture.

He can only tag Alex with the storm is he's heading towards him at a predictable path, or stunned or frozen. That's all really. With its fast calldown. Its a given unless Alex is jumping around, and then the sticky rockets would be the goal here. By the way, tried out the redirect rockets, they move a bit slower than regular rockets, but the moment you redirect them, they go four times as fast.

Ah, I see now. Even if the Redirect rockets manage to tag Alex, they'll only knock him flying.

Ray Sphere Energy is a foreign energy. If you say its only supposed to be effective against conduits then something is wrong. Alex isn't exactly out of weak spots when his entire body is naked to the skin. The only things that should be nullifuying the electric bolts are either the shield or armor. And with shield you can just get around it via pincer bolt and sticky rockets or shockwaves. With the armor, Alex still gets knocked around by rockets and without his dodging manuevers he's much more predictable.

I've explained why the effect of the Ray Sphere energy that it had on John only applies to Conduits. Alex's body isn't naked either, it is insanely durable. It's enough to prevent the electricity from harming him, and especially considering that the attacks are lacking force. The Shield isn't getting blown off, it's attatched to Alex's biomass. It would take several rockets to break it, Pincer Bolts won't cut it.

As for the reduced mobility while in the armor, it doesn't matter if he's knocked around or not. What is that meant to prove when the armor nullified most of the damage?

He can still strafe-jump and what not, the only abilities that are nerfed are his dodge-roll, his gliding and a portion of his speed, but that's it. It's not nearly as nerfed as it sounds.

You say I'm creating loopholes, when you are also doing the same. Recently with The Beast. Then again you can also describe creating loopholes as figuring out the logic behind something. Its a natural thing really. For us to feel threatened when we are losing. I know we both have that feeling right now on this debate.

Fair enough, but I guess you can see where i'm coming from with the Beast argument.

In advance if I began to get offensive then I apologize. Passion can do that to a gamer.. But I still stand with Cole.

No worries, I took no offence at all. I also apologize if you felt I was being unreasonable at any point.

I already submitted to Alex being as fast as bullets. But my argument of Cole shooting bolts at where he thinks Alex is there. Counter it if you will.

I concede to this, but Cole will have to get a pin-point shot at Alex in order for it to have an effect. He can't do that though.

Your Beast only harmed by Ray Sphere Energy will not exactly be a good idea since that makes Cole deadlier to non-humans due to his strange energy, and his voltage is still there. Please don't deny Cole of his rightful voltage which was enough to power up generators. They are bound to affect Alex due to the wattage and volts.

  • It's just different energy, nothing more. It would be like the Blood-Tox gas trying to poison Cole, it was specifically made to hurt Alex and other beings that are infected with the Blacklight virus. It would be useless against Cole, as it doesn't have the properties to hurt him.
  • I never denied the ability to power up sub-stations, but there's a difference between powering something up and destroying/damaging it.

Once you remove gameplay mechanics, then every enemy that Cole hits in the head will be fried simply due to its current travelling through their everything. Alex won't be an exception and Cole will have enough volts and bolts to get through his body

That's because Cole's enemies are mostly just genetically modified humans, or regular soldiers. Alex's brain functions the same, but it doesn't have the same vulnerabilities. So he will be an exception.

Also, I realized debating in this style is not my thing. I rather prefer the quick swift replies in threads. That at least leaves me time to write up fics

I understand.

Anyway, I feel at this rate we're just repeating ourselves with really nothing interesting left to debate. I feel it may be best to end the debate, and get onto the voting. But first I need clarification from you on whether we should end it or not.