#1 Edited by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter (CitizenBane):

Vs

Backlash (Strider92):

Conditions:

  • Morals On
  • No Prep
  • Standard Gear
  • No BFR
  • Wildstorm Midnighter (No Nukes)
  • Backlash cannot Mist-kill
  • Win by KO, Death or Incap

Conditions:

#2 Edited by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to be epic.

2 character i know nothing about, being debated by 2 top dogs.

Small request: could you please put in issue numbers when you put the scan, that make my job of stealing those scans so much easier... huhhahaha :p

#3 Posted by thanobomb1124 (2014 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

I will gather my scans.....and wait for my prey to post.....

Moderator
#5 Edited by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Hah! Before we go any further is the OP/rules all ok with you?

#6 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#7 Posted by laflux (15888 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Posted by dondave (37377 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be Awesome

Online
#9 Edited by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Good luck! This'll be interesting!

My first thought is that Midnighter probably has a physical advantage in physicall speed and reactions (well much better reactions due to that pesky computer). His healing factor also means he has a durability advantage when blows actually land. Slayton however has and advantage in skill, agility and experience. It could even be argued he is also more versatile.

Inevitably this will make it to a close combat situation. Both of them favor that area however initially Backlash probably has the advantage due to his whips. Those things are very effective at a range and Midnighter will have trouble getting into combat without getting tagged. They can cover quite a large range as we saw when BL popped them for the first time (@killemall i'll add the issues where I can but some of these i've pre-uploaded so some of them I don't recall exactly what issue they are from):

Team 7 Vol 2 #3

Now Midnighter's Battle computer and speed are very very formidable however Midnighter has process the information that is sent to him by his computer and react on it. He is thus limited by his own physicals because information sent to him is processed faster than his stats can keep up with. I might be wrong here but i'm pretty sure his computer goes through possibilities and then Midnighter picks the one that lets him win however to do that he still has to make a conscious decision to choose said eventuality and react on on it.

Due to the fact that Backlash's whips are psionic constructs they attack as fast as he can think. We saw this stated out right when he fought Stormwatch:

Stormwatch Vol 1 #5 (the issue number might be wrong)

3rd panel is the statement.

This is further enforced when we see how Backlash can out-react Grifter consistently:

Team 7 Vol 3 #1
Team 7 Vol 3 #3

While i'm sure you know who Grifter is being a Wildstorm fan and all I don't need to tell you who he is but for everyone reading who doesn't, Grifter is a telekinetic so his attacks like Backlash's are based on the speed of his thoughts and yet Slayton was able to out pace him once straight off the bat and the second time he got the drop on him. Suffice to say the speed these coils can move is exceedingly fast. Midnighter's battle computer can keep up with them because it works at the speed of thought. Midnighter himself on the other hand cannot. He is physically limited by his stats. This means that dodging these coils is something Midnighter is no doubt going to have a little bit of trouble with.

They are also just as effective in close proximity:

Deathblow #12

In fact due to the speed they can move at they are even more dangerous the closer you are due to the fact it augments the reaction speed required to take these on at a range. In close proximity it will be far harder for Midnighter to avoid getting tagged or even caught up in them as Slayton does like using said whips as a means of constraint:

Wildcore #1 (I think)

If Midnighter does get caught up (which is a good possibility given how these coils move) then it could be very detrimental to him as Slayton has shown that he can increase the energy flowing through his whips:

Stormwatch Vol 1 #5 (I think)

So he could poor on the power if Midnighter did get caught up. Now Midnighter has a healing factor. A good one at that. Whats to say Backlash's coils can even deal any lasting damage? Very good question Backlash's purple coils (which is the version i'm debating with btw) aren't as strong as his yellow ones however they are still very powerful:

Stromwatch Vol 1 (No idea on the issue number)

Strong enough to smash up a military APC.

Ontop of that his whips have been shown to effect Warblade. Despite the fact that Warbalde has a very impressive healing factor:

Warblade healing

Warblade healing again

So despite his very efficient healing factor Backlash was still able hurt and temporarily incap WB:

Cyber Force Vol 1 #0

Given the strength they possess and their ability to hurt someone who has a very effective healing factor himself coupled with the fact the amount of energy flowing through them can be increased by Slaytons conscious command I would say they are capable of giving Midnigter a very nasty shock.

When it comes to a close combat situation Slayton is one of the best fighters (if not the best) in Wildstorm. Unarmed he has taken out established characters with little effort. Zealot has taken him on twice. Once ended with her being beaten quite convincingly and the other ended in a sort of stalemate:

Backlash Vol 1 (don't know the issue number around the 20's I think)

He even states in that fight that he isn't even at peak ability so those are some pretty impressive skills considering Zealot is over 10 thousand years old and has the fighting skills to match.

In their second fight which was a sparring match Slayton seemed to dominate her in hand to hand but went down-hill when he chose to take her one with a sword (which to be fair is how it should be. Slayton never uses sword and they are standard gear for Zealot. This did seem out of character for Marc though as he never uses any bladed weapons):

Wildcore #2 (I think)

Now before I post scans from the Zealot Vs Midnighter fight I want to clarify a few things!

  1. This is a VERY high end feat for Zealot. I'm not even sure it should be used to assess her abilities
  2. If Midnighter's battle computer hadn't been working I would say thats how a fight between the two would go however it was working so i'm pretty sure it was jobbing.

Suffice to say Zealot's combat skills were overplayed and Midnighters were downplayed.

Now as i've basically discredited this feat to a certain extent you may wonder why i've even posted it. Well this is why. As I said if Midnighter's battle computer hadn't been working this is how I can see a fight between him and Zealot going due to her severely outclassing him in skill but him making up for it in brutality, skill and playing nasty.

In this case he's fighting someone who is superior to Zealot in close combat but not only that he also has to deal with those coils that are going to be moving at the speed of thought during the entire confrontation suffice to say his computer is going to be working overdrive to compensate however due to the limitations set by Midnighters stats I see Slayton having a slight advantage.

I'll stop here for my opening argument :D

@laflux said:

@killemall: @citizenbane: @strider92:

Is it okay to say that seeing this CaV has given me the horn?

Do I want to know what that means?

#10 Posted by laflux (15888 posts) - - Show Bio
#11 Posted by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Posted by laflux (15888 posts) - - Show Bio
#13 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

WE HADZ A DEAL MAN! WE HADZ A DEAL!

#14 Edited by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

@theacidskull: lol this was ordained prior to that conversation but if neither Cadence or Jashro reply to the CaV by tonight then we'll kick it off either this evening or tomorrows :p

#15 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@theacidskull: lol this was ordained prior to that conversation but if neither Cadence or Jashro reply to the CaV by tonight then we'll kick it off either this evening or tomorrows :p

Nah man :P, just kidding, but this will be awesome.

I'm sorry bit this is a hard week for me so i might no be able to put my full effort into it so we better postpone for while :)

#16 Posted by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: I'd add that Midnighter also has a solid advantage in general strength, being able to hold open the jaws of a 200+ foot tall monster that was trying to eat him (for perspective's sake, a real world monster like the T-Rex can toss out something like 5 tons of weight into its bites while being a fraction of the size of the Godzilla-wannabe Midnighter's fighting).........

The Authority v2 #5

..............and a rather severe advantage in in terms of striking power, I'll get to this part later.

Agility? If you're arguing that Backlash strikes at the speed of thought, fine; the average time it takes for someone to process a thought is about 300 to 500 milliseconds, so unless you have something that says Backlash thinks radically faster than that, striking at the speed of thought isn't going to suffice against someone who can activate and move through multiple doors all around the world while never staying in the same place for more than an eighth (125 milliseconds) of a second. Doing the math, Midnighter can dodge attacks and position himself for strikes via doors faster than Backlash's speed of thought can keep up with.

The Authority v1 #22

Dodging psi-whips at close range is also probably not going to be tremendously difficult for a guy who's dodged a homing laser inches away from him.

Authority Annual 2000

Greater experience is going to benefit Slayton less than it did Zealot and Nemesis, in that they both had advantages in their bouts with Midnighter that Backlash doesn't possess. I also disagree with the idea that Slayton's whips are going to give him the edge in close quarters. Midnighter's modifications come with a lot of bells and whistles that make fighting him at close quarters a suicidal prospect ---- I'll highlight the biggest one, his ability to switch off his pain receptors and fight through damage and sensory overload that other superhumans can't. He's been riddled with bullets that left Apollo writhing in pain, except Midnighter can simply disconnect from how the damage feels and lay into Lobo:

Jingle Hell

And even assuming Backlash's whips are going to punch through him like wet paper, Midnighter's not really that bothered by gaping holes in his chest.

Midnighter #5

I'm going to set aside the factor of his striking power again and point out that the gear he's packing includes a range of potent explosives ---- some unlikely to feature in this scenario, like the mini-nuke ---- but others? The explosive darts like the ones below that he can comfortably deploy at close range against Slayton?

What happens when Backlash gets in close and Midnighter simply blows up the ground around and between them? He can take it. How's Backlash going to do, especially considering his agility won't mean much to a detonation at such close range? Midnighter can take serious hits, or he can ignore the pain and make the blood and broken bones something he only has to worry about after the fight's over. Backlash doesn't have that luxury. If his ribs break after Midnighter gives him a good, hard kick because Slayton decided to make this a close quarters fight, that injury will weigh him down for the rest of the bout. As will everything else that Midnighter does. In contrast, Backlash could literally perforate Midnighter's chest repeatedly and it would barely slow him down even though it's actually damaging him.

Midnighter has to process the information he receives from his battle computer, sure, but I fail to see how that's the disadvantage you're making it out to be. The very nature of Midnighter's battle computer requires him to perform mental gymnastics far beyond anyone else's capabilities; in one showing, he states that he's run through a trillion different versions of an entire day before his opponent has even opened her mouth to deliver her villainous speech, so clearly his mind works far faster than regular minds do. In others, he's predicted the outcomes of wars right down to the local and global political consequences for days and possibly even weeks ahead before the first bullet's fired. Hell, he's outright stated that his precognitive abilities work faster than his opponent can think up the plan he's predicted they're going to use.

Midnighter #7

Backlash attacking him at the speed of thought isn't going to stop him from knowing that Backlash is going to attack him at the speed of thought before Backlash thinks of attacking him at the speed of thought.

PS The scan of Backlash swinging Strafe around is from Stormwatch #4, not 5.

Your Grifter scans are all out of context. That issue depicted how Cole and the others in his unit got their powers in the first place. This was way back in the day when Grifter first acquired telekinesis. He'd never used it before, had no experience with it and struggled to make it work or lift anything major. That's the reason he has that constipated face on while he's trying to attack Backlash. There's a pretty substantial difference between outreacting the TK of a Grifter who doesn't know how to even make it work and outreacting the TK of a Grifter who does. As a comparison of speed, Grifter has called Midnighter "stronger than anything, meaner than anything, faster than anything", so that should serve as a decent indicator that he considers Midnighter faster than him --- although to be fair he also claimed Midnighter wasn't fast enough to react to a bullet from him but we've seen that's not true.

PS That second set of scans is from Team 7 #4, not 3.

Hurting Warblade isn't an issue and is something Midnighter can pull off as well. Hurting him enough to do some substantial damage that won't fade away in seconds is a different matter entirely. It's like Wolverine; Harley Quinn can hurt him by whacking him in the face with her giant hammer, but considering Logan will be back on his feet in no time like nothing happened, Harley bothering him for a couple of seconds isn't really something impressive for her. In the scan you posted, Backlash causes Warblade some minor discomfort at best. We can see he's back on his feet a few panels later. Bullets have accomplished similar results against Warblade. Additionally I'd point out that your scan of Backlash hurting Warblade is from an era where all the WildC.A.T.S. were substantially less impressive than they eventually became, which is what your scans of Warblade healing from the 2000's show --- back then, Maul couldn't grow bigger than a house without losing his mind completely, Zealot was getting manhandled by people like Pike, etc. Unless you retroactively assume Warblade has always been as durable as he was in the final volumes of WildC.A.T.S, your argument that Backlash hurting early 90's Warblade is impressive because of Reno's eventually impressive healing factor is faulty.

Now as we get into contrasting Backlash's showings against Zealot with Midnighter's, let it be said that while Backlash might certainly edge out Zannah in skill, he's not packing the advantages Zealot brings to a fight against Midnighter. He doesn't have the kind of damage soak and endurance showings that Zealot and Nemesis do. Zealot went toe-to-toe with Midnighter for hours on end, and given that his very first blow broke some of her ribs, she almost certainly had more serious injuries after hours of that same kind of punishment. She was still capable of fighting through all that. Captain Atom has remarked on Zealot's amazingly robust constitution. Setting all that aside and taking one of her lowest showings where she barely beats Batman in that nonsensical crossover, she voluntarily impaled herself on a blade sharp enough to slice through practically anything, fell to the floor, and then got back up on her feet seconds later. Nemesis has soaked up blows up from a clone of the High, someone strong enough to shatter the moon in one hit, and retained consciousness long enough to snatch the advantage and behead him. That's how tough the Coda women can get; and Backlash doesn't have that same kind of stamina or endurance. There's also the matter of weaponry to consider; Midnighter has plenty of showings to suggest he's tougher than a random APC so plenty of doubt can be cast upon the notion that Backlash's psi-whips will plague him with enough injury for close combat to be a losing proposition. Zealot was stabbing Midnighter with a star-forged, electron-slicing, Captain Atom-intimidating kheran blade; Slayton's weaponry doesn't match up to that by any standard.

Going CQC against Midnighter would also totally suck for Backlash because putting it lightly, the guy hits like a speeding freight train. The incident where he hits Apollo hard enough to burst his eardrums is fairly well known but I'll post it here anyway:

The Authority: Revolution #11

Jack Hawksmoor: Without his powers, tough enough to shrug off shotgun blasts and hits from wrecking balls. With his powers? Tough enough that he's been dropped into a nuclear explosion and emerged unscathed. Didn't stop Midnighter from giving him the beating of a lifetime.

The Authority: Revolution #11

There are a lot of examples I can quote for Midnighter's ability to lay a hurting on beings immensely more durable than Backlash, but I'll save them for later and post one more: here's Midnighter taking out Winter by cutting off the blood supply to his brain.

The Authority: Prime #3

To get an idea of how much blunt force damage Winter could soak, here's Winter vs the High, a Superman analogue strong enough to shatter the moon with one hit.

Stormwatch #46, I think

Punching and kicking wouldn't take down Winter; Midnighter's not strong enough for that. So he picked a less conventional method to deal with an opponent too durable for him to harm by conventional methods.

The crux of my argument is that Midnighter's hits will affect Backlash a lot more than vice versa, and that that Midnighter can fight through absurd degrees of punishment that would most certainly put down Slayton. I'll think of something more substantive later.

Moderator
#18 Edited by laflux (15888 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Edited by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

@strider92: I'd add that Midnighter also has a solid advantage in general strength, being able to hold open the jaws of a 200+ foot tall monster that was trying to eat him (for perspective's sake, a real world monster like the T-Rex can toss out something like 5 tons of weight into its bites while being a fraction of the size of the Godzilla-wannabe Midnighter's fighting).........

..............and a rather severe advantage in in terms of striking power, I'll get to this part later.

True I will concede Midnighter has a strength advantage. Slayton can enhance his strength via using his psinoics:

Backlash 1 or 2

Its not on Midnighter's level but its worth including as despite the simple strength Backlash's blows have been known to burn their opponent due to the psionic nature so I wouldn't discount it entirely.

@citizenbane said:

Agility? If you're arguing that Backlash strikes at the speed of thought, fine; the average time it takes for someone to process a thought is about 300 to 500 milliseconds, so unless you have something that says Backlash thinks radically faster than that, striking at the speed of thought isn't going to suffice against someone who can activate and move through multiple doors all around the world while never staying in the same place for more than an eighth (125 milliseconds) of a second. Doing the math, Midnighter can dodge attacks and position himself for strikes via doors faster than Backlash's speed of thought can keep up with.

Dodging psi-whips at close range is also probably not going to be tremendously difficult for a guy who's dodged a homing laser inches away from him.


To clarify i'm not saying Slayton himself does i'm saying his whips can. Slayton can't punch that fast but his whips can move at that speed (it was stated in the last scan). The problem with the Midnighter scan is as good a feat as that is we don't know how Midnighter was doing it. Allow me to explain. If Midnighter was jumping around all over place running from door to door that would make him exceptionally fast however as we can't see how he was doing it he could have just as easily been falling through them as in opening a door directly beneath him every time he reappeared and using the momentum from the fall to carry him through the next door. Because of the fact we don't see how Midnighter is doing this the whole could just be him saying "door" everytime he ports and just falls through it meaning that no physical speed or stats were required to accomplish it just him mentally commanding a door to open. If that is the case what evidence do we have to support the claim you made?

With regards to the laser as you said it was a homing laser. That is going to be decidedly slower than a normal laser. For example in the news not long ago Scientists thought they had found Neutrino's that are faster than light. However when they actually sat down and looked it over very very closely they realized that when they did the test the light was having to travel through or make extremely small bends to get to the destination whereas the neutrino's didn't so in fact the light was having to travel far more distance than they were. If we apply the same logic here then a homing laser is going to be decidedly slower than a normal laser because it is making far bigger turns and having to travel far further than a straight shot from a normal laser would. Which Slayton has dodged before and not just a single one but a whole volley:

Backlash #1

Given the fact that these ones are being fired directly in a straight line then this seems a better feat as the projectiles are not slowed down.

@citizenbane said:

Greater experience is going to benefit Slayton less than it did Zealot and Nemesis, in that they both had advantages in their bouts with Midnighter that Backlash doesn't possess. I also disagree with the idea that Slayton's whips are going to give him the edge in close quarters. Midnighter's modifications come with a lot of bells and whistles that make fighting him at close quarters a suicidal prospect ---- I'll highlight the biggest one, his ability to switch off his pain receptors and fight through damage and sensory overload that other superhumans can't. He's been riddled with bullets that left Apollo writhing in pain, except Midnighter can simply disconnect from how the damage feels and lay into Lobo:

And even assuming Backlash's whips are going to punch through him like wet paper, Midnighter's not really that bothered by gaping holes in his chest.


It is arguable that Slayton is more durable than Zealot or Nemesis (without her shields ofc) in some respects due to his Kherubim physiology. Slayton was cast out into space at one point and given the amount of pressure that puts on someone's body its quite a feat:

Stormwatch Vol 1 #5

When you consider that Nemesis even with her shields had to be saved by Majestic from space or the pressure would have killed her this is a good feat on Slaytons behalf.

Heck even Midnighter himself could barely stay there a few seconds before coming back almost frozen:

Given that Slayton was out there for far longer without a lot of discomfort (granted he does say he doesn't know how long he can keep it up for) I would say that given the pressure in space and the vast temperature that he is infact more durable than Zealot, Nemesis and even Midnigther in this area given that the condition Midnighter was in when he returned and how he basically stated outright he never wanted to do that again. In comparison Slayton managed to get back onto the ship and continue killing demonites quite happily. Don't get me wrong Midnighter's healing makes him harder to put down but Slayton's Alien physiology makes him naturally more durable.

He even got incinerated once and was none the worse for the wear:

Backlash (no idea on the issue I think it was around 10)

@citizenbane said:

I'm going to set aside the factor of his striking power again and point out that the gear he's packing includes a range of potent explosives ---- some unlikely to feature in this scenario, like the mini-nuke ---- but others? The explosive darts like the ones below that he can comfortably deploy at close range against Slayton?

What happens when Backlash gets in close and Midnighter simply blows up the ground around and between them? He can take it. How's Backlash going to do, especially considering his agility won't mean much to a detonation at such close range? Midnighter can take serious hits, or he can ignore the pain and make the blood and broken bones something he only has to worry about after the fight's over. Backlash doesn't have that luxury. If his ribs break after Midnighter gives him a good, hard kick because Slayton decided to make this a close quarters fight, that injury will weigh him down for the rest of the bout. As will everything else that Midnighter does. In contrast, Backlash could literally perforate Midnighter's chest repeatedly and it would barely slow him down even though it's actually damaging him.


True Midnighter has better standard gear and an advantage with his healing factor but Slayton still has his misting to fall back on. Explosions,bullets, falls and other such things are something he can walk away from with his misting:

While Midnighter can take the blows and the pain but still take the damage Slayton can do that but also avoid damage completely. So while he can't hold this form indefinitely (or even attack in it) he can still use it to negate quite a bit of Midnigter's damage as well as avoid explosions and keep up with Midnighter's healing factor. Without his misting Backlash would be in big trouble as he wouldn't have the endurance or pain tolerance to match Midnighter however misting gives him that much needed boost.

@citizenbane said:

Midnighter has to process the information he receives from his battle computer, sure, but I fail to see how that's the disadvantage you're making it out to be. The very nature of Midnighter's battle computer requires him to perform mental gymnastics far beyond anyone else's capabilities; in one showing, he states that he's run through a trillion different versions of an entire day before his opponent has even opened her mouth to deliver her villainous speech, so clearly his mind works far faster than regular minds do. In others, he's predicted the outcomes of wars right down to the local and global political consequences for days and possibly even weeks ahead before the first bullet's fired. Hell, he's outright stated that his precognitive abilities work faster than his opponent can think up the plan he's predicted they're going to use.

Backlash attacking him at the speed of thought isn't going to stop him from knowing that Backlash is going to attack him at the speed of thought before Backlash thinks of attacking him at the speed of thought.


I don't think you'll argue with me when I say that computers process information faster than the human brain. There's even been a claim that someone has invented a computer that can process information faster than light. However the computer no matter how fast is still limited by its user. Midnighter himself didn't go through a trillion different versions of the situation his computer did. His mind doesn't need to work faster than a normal persons (although obviously it does i'm just posting this to show something) to get the information. For example I know quite a lot of information about Spider-man but if I was asked to explain information on Spider-man's origin (something i'm very familiar with) a computer could bring up that information and process it in the time it took me to decide to say my first word. Effectively Midnighter is being told what to do not processing it himself. I believe he even stated once that it was like seeing a book from the ending.

When we take into consideration that Slayton's whips being psionic in nature do really go as fast as he can think than that attack speed is going to be faster than Midnighter can react at because in the time it takes Midnighter to decide to move to the left because he knows thats where the best way to avoid the attack is the same speed Backlash's whips can move at.

@citizenbane said:


Your Grifter scans are all out of context. That issue depicted how Cole and the others in his unit got their powers in the first place. This was way back in the day when Grifter first acquired telekinesis. He'd never used it before, had no experience with it and struggled to make it work or lift anything major. That's the reason he has that constipated face on while he's trying to attack Backlash. There's a pretty substantial difference between outreacting the TK of a Grifter who doesn't know how to even make it work and outreacting the TK of a Grifter who does. As a comparison of speed, Grifter has called Midnighter "stronger than anything, meaner than anything, faster than anything", so that should serve as a decent indicator that he considers Midnighter faster than him --- although to be fair he also claimed Midnighter wasn't fast enough to react to a bullet from him but we've seen that's not true.

PS That second set of scans is from Team 7 #4, not 3.


Not true. Grifter was able to throw things around quite happily:

Team 7 Vol 1 #3

Not mention the entire Team were able to use their pisonics to tank a nuke:

Team 7 Vol 1 #4

Both these events occurred in Volume 1 where the team literally just got their powers in comparison to the scans I posted earlier which were from Volume 3 where I believe a year or so had passed since they gained their abilities. Even if that was the case and they had only just gained their powers (which they hadn't) then Backlash would have been in the exact same position of inexperience as Grifter and still showed the speed to out-react him.

@citizenbane said:

Hurting Warblade isn't an issue and is something Midnighter can pull off as well. Hurting him enough to do some substantial damage that won't fade away in seconds is a different matter entirely. It's like Wolverine; Harley Quinn can hurt him by whacking him in the face with her giant hammer, but considering Logan will be back on his feet in no time like nothing happened, Harley bothering him for a couple of seconds isn't really something impressive for her. In the scan you posted, Backlash causes Warblade some minor discomfort at best. We can see he's back on his feet a few panels later. Bullets have accomplished similar results against Warblade. Additionally I'd point out that your scan of Backlash hurting Warblade is from an era where all the WildC.A.T.S. were substantially less impressive than they eventually became, which is what your scans of Warblade healing from the 2000's show --- back then, Maul couldn't grow bigger than a house without losing his mind completely, Zealot was getting manhandled by people like Pike, etc. Unless you retroactively assume Warblade has always been as durable as he was in the final volumes of WildC.A.T.S, your argument that Backlash hurting early 90's Warblade is impressive because of Reno's eventually impressive healing factor is faulty.


Hurting Warblade should be quite a chore to do if you have nothing but blunt force damage. When part of his head got blown off he didn't even bat an eyelid. True Warblade has got more experience over the years as does any character but as Slayton's whips don't just use blunt force trauma but also deal pisonic damage (as seen when he hits demonites and forces them to leave their hosts) it seems quite likely that it should still have far more of an effect on Reno than a few bullets in the guts.

@citizenbane said:

Now as we get into contrasting Backlash's showings against Zealot with Midnighter's, let it be said that while Backlash might certainly edge out Zannah in skill, he's not packing the advantages Zealot brings to a fight against Midnighter. He doesn't have the kind of damage soak and endurance showings that Zealot and Nemesis do. Zealot went toe-to-toe with Midnighter for hours on end, and given that his very first blow broke some of her ribs, she almost certainly had more serious injuries after hours of that same kind of punishment. She was still capable of fighting through all that. Captain Atom has remarked on Zealot's amazingly robust constitution. Setting all that aside and taking one of her lowest showings where she barely beats Batman in that nonsensical crossover, she voluntarily impaled herself on a blade sharp enough to slice through practically anything, fell to the floor, and then got back up on her feet seconds later. Nemesis has soaked up blows up from a clone of the High, someone strong enough to shatter the moon in one hit, and retained consciousness long enough to snatch the advantage and behead him. That's how tough the Coda women can get; and Backlash doesn't have that same kind of stamina or endurance. There's also the matter of weaponry to consider; Midnighter has plenty of showings to suggest he's tougher than a random APC so plenty of doubt can be cast upon the notion that Backlash's psi-whips will plague him with enough injury for close combat to be a losing proposition. Zealot was stabbing Midnighter with a star-forged, electron-slicing, Captain Atom-intimidating kheran blade; Slayton's weaponry doesn't match up to that by any standard.

Going CQC against Midnighter would also totally suck for Backlash because putting it lightly, the guy hits like a speeding freight train. The incident where he hits Apollo hard enough to burst his eardrums is fairly well known but I'll post it here anyway:

Jack Hawksmoor: Without his powers, tough enough to shrug off shotgun blasts and hits from wrecking balls. With his powers? Tough enough that he's been dropped into a nuclear explosion and emerged unscathed. Didn't stop Midnighter from giving him the beating of a lifetime.


I touched slightly on Zealot earlier. The fight with her Vs Midnighter was a very high showing on her part as I said off the bat and the whole Batman thing was pure PIS Zealot should have gutted him before he knew what hit him. I don't recall the feat with Nemesis but i'm assuming she had her forcefields?

As I said earlier given that Marc was able to survive the pressure of space just as well as Nemesis with her forcefields to aid her I wouldn't be surprised if he was just as if not more durable than Zealot. Midnighter is certainly harder to destroy than an APC however tougher is debatable. Last I checked bullets can still penetrate Mindighters skin as can stabbing weapons. The same can't really be said for an APC. Can Midnighter outlast and APC? Yes by a lot. Is he actually more durable? Doesn't seem to be. So Backlash's whips should indeed be in a position where he can cause damage Midnighter effectively. Granted Middy can heal but the damage can still be dealt.

The incident with Apollo seems more of a feat of knowledge of weak points rather than actual strength. Anyway a lot of characters are able to hurt characters outside their league Backlash is no exception. A psionic out-burst from him was enough to give Helspont pause. Helspont even acknowledged that he was surprised at the abilities Slayton had:

Backlash (again no idea on the issue number sorry)

Of course Backlash isn't coming close to wining a fight with Helspont had he chose to Helspont could have stomped him easily. I'm just pointing out that all characters can hurt others that are above them and while impressive it isn't surprising Midnighter was able to do it.

He also took a blast from Helspont and didn't die! I know that probably sounds odd to people who don't follow Wildstrom but taking a blast from Helspont and not dying when you are Slayton's level is pretty impressive:

Backlash (again no idea of the issue sorry killemall)

He recovered from the blast in the next issue.

Stormwatch Vol 1 #4

In conjunction with his misting this should put him in a position to be overall more durable than Zealot and at least durable enough to give Midnighter a good tussle.

@citizenbane said:

Jack Hawksmoor: Without his powers, tough enough to shrug off shotgun blasts and hits from wrecking balls. With his powers? Tough enough that he's been dropped into a nuclear explosion and emerged unscathed. Didn't stop Midnighter from giving him the beating of a lifetime.

The Authority: Revolution #11

I wouldn't call that the beating of a life time infact Jack seemed to be doing pretty well. Everytime Midnighter landed a blow he was retaliating quite well. Given that Hawksmoor's powers increase when he's in a city (and correct me if i'm wrong but there is no city here) this seems quite a good showing on Jack's part.

@citizenbane said:

There are a lot of examples I can quote for Midnighter's ability to lay a hurting on beings immensely more durable than Backlash, but I'll save them for later and post one more: here's Midnighter taking out Winter by cutting off the blood supply to his brain.

The Authority: Prime #3

To get an idea of how much blunt force damage Winter could soak, here's Winter vs the High, a Superman analogue strong enough to shatter the moon with one hit.

Stormwatch #46, I thin

Punching and kicking wouldn't take down Winter; Midnighter's not strong enough for that. So he picked a less conventional method to deal with an opponent too durable for him to harm by conventional methods.

Unless i'm much mistaken Winter gets stronger by absorbing kinetic energy and redirecting it thus lowering the damage he takes a bit. Midnighter took him by surprise from behind and took him out tactically so while a good feat of tactical ability its not really a feat of being able to hurt someone more durable due to the fact to become stronger and more durable Winter has to recitative kinetic energy from from blows, blows Midnighter was smart enough not to engage him with. Without receiving any kind of kinetic energy to boost himself Winter could not have been all that durable at the time. Even if he was automatically that durable without a kinetic energy build up (seems unlikely) I said before taking down people more powerful than themselves is something that happens quite often in comics. If I had a nickel for everytime Spider-man or Captain America did it i'd be pretty well off right now.

@citizenbane said:

The crux of my argument is that Midnighter's hits will affect Backlash a lot more than vice versa, and that that Midnighter can fight through absurd degrees of punishment that would most certainly put down Slayton. I'll think of something more substantive later.

I respectfully disagree. Midinighter has the ability to take a lot more damage than Backlash however Slayton has the ability to negate taking damage altogether as long as he plays his cards right. So while Midnighter will take damage Slayton will avoid it which I see as far more of a game changing aspect.

#20 Edited by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: I don't like the sound of that!

#21 Edited by dondave (37377 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#22 Posted by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: You interested in picking this up again? or do you want to call it quits? :)

#23 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Might as well. Sorry to disappoint, but it's my final year of college, so the combination of exams, thesis preparations and getting ready to apply to grad school means I just about have enough time to scold/ban various people rather than get into extensive debates.

Moderator
#24 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

I just about have enough time to scold/ban various people rather than get into extensive debates.

Just be honestly, you enjoy that more than anything else here , hehe

#25 Edited by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Thats ok. Good luck with your thesis.

@citizenbane said:

I just about have enough time to scold/ban various people rather than get into extensive debates.

Just be honestly, you enjoy that more than anything else here , hehe

Of course he does :p

#26 Posted by Wyldsong (5552 posts) - - Show Bio

While short lived, I have to say, good debate you two=)

#27 Posted by BigCimmerian (8305 posts) - - Show Bio

Who won? :D

#28 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6356 posts) - - Show Bio

The only thing I was really thinking, was how much it would absolutely suck to have lost any one of their posts while throwing it together ... damn. I've put less effort into a thesis paper.

#29 Posted by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio
#30 Edited by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm considering picking up where Bane left off...

Would that even be allowed?

Moderator
#31 Edited by laflux (15888 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot said:

I'm considering picking up where Bane left off...

Would that even be allowed?

Why don't you ask them? If they are okay with it I'm sure the spectators are not going to mind.

#32 Posted by Wyldsong (5552 posts) - - Show Bio

The key to a successful summons of @buckshot is mentioning Midnighter=)

So...I'd be interested in seeing this debate go on. Sooo, what say @strider92 and @citizenbane

#33 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm ok with it.

Moderator
#34 Posted by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: I'm cool with that. Ah crap i'm gonna get stomped aren't I?

#35 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:

I’m going to come at this whip speed thing a little more directly than I normally would and I’m just going to use the pages you’ve already presented (since I haven’t read Team 7 stuff in forever and can’t recall details). You’re trying to support the speed of the whips using examples of Backlash using his whips on Grifter faster than he could react to, but he doesn’t, not really. In your first set of examples its not that he gets his whips going faster, its that Grifter simply cannot use his own psionic powers. The text clearly points this out, saying that his mojo (what they called their abilities early on and still occasionally) just wasn’t working anymore. Of course Backlash will get his whips out before Grifter can use his tk…when Grifter can’t use his tk. Even in the first panel we see Grifter trying and failing before Backlash attacks. In your second set of scans, despite the speed you want to credit the whips with, we see Grifter dodge them at first. He eventually gets caught, but that’s not a surprise. Midnighter is far faster than Grifter, because he’s physically much faster and because he can see every move coming. Grifter eventually getting caught suggests less about how MIdnighter will fare than Grifter being able to dodge in the first place. Additionally, that set of scans actually goes to show how Backlash does in a psionic speed contest. Unlike in the first set of scans, in this one he’s actually against an enemy with functioning psionic abilities, but who gets their shot off first? Not Backlash. Your examples do not show Backlash’s whips to be something Midnighter, with his superhuman senses, awareness, and speed, to be incapable of dodging easily and often. And as much as you’d like to discredit Midnighter’s display against Lamplighter, it’s the closest thing presented to Midnighter actually dealing with Backlash’s whips. It’s a light-based construct directed by thought. There is nothing limiting its movement but the speed it can be directed and Midnighter easily avoided the attack. So the whips, the best chance Backlash has for doing damage to Midnighter probably won’t even hit him with any consistency.

But the next point of discussion was about if they did, and Midnighter’s durability/damage soak. Bane’s position was that, in addition to Midnighter’s high durability and regeneration, he can simply turn off his pain receptors and function unhindered by ridiculous amounts of damage, so even if Backlash could land a hit, and even if he did damage, and beyond that, even if that damage wasn’t quickly repaired, Midnighter would still go on to beat him to death because none of it would bother him if he chose not to let it. Your response about space makes very little sense to me. You assert that Backlash has more durability than Nemesis or Zealot because of his Kherubim physiology, and this is supported by examples of Backlash and Nemesis being in space. This confuses me because if your thought is that Kherubim physiology grants greater durability, you should hold that Nemesis and Zealot have at least equal durability to Backlash since they are also Kherubim, and in fact Zealot is Backlash’s mother, so if he has great durability then he got it from her. (And I can’t remember right now if Backlash is even full Kherubim, but I can’t be bothered to check.) As for the space thing, Backlash himself isn’t sure how long he’d survive and counts that as the worst position he’s ever put himself in. He may be relatively calm about it, but he knows he’d die if left in that position for long, just like Nemesis without her force field. But even if that did show greater durability for Backlash, it wouldn’t actually impact the point Bane was making. Midnighter is still going to shrug of strikes better than Backlash will. The ability to survive in space briefly doesn’t have much to do with anything. Batman can do it too and that it won’t stop Midnighter from putting a fist through his brain. And I just want to get on this Midnighter thing real quick, Midnighter only being there for a few seconds doesn’t mean that he could only be there for a few seconds. He was there for as long as it took to complete his task and left. There was nothing, not even his reaction when getting back to earth, suggesting he would have died with a second more. And him being frozen has nothing to do with his personal durability (and really, the lack of pressure in space is nothing like brute force being applied to your body in a fight), its just the artist deciding to clearly show a temperature difference. Superman has frozen over in space as well, it has nothing to do with him, just the temperature around him. As for your example of Slayton getting burned up, Midnighter went hand to hand with the sun so I’ll just ignore it.

And there you bring up misting, which is really the only reason Backlash can be in this fight. But with mist-kills not allowed, the best he can hope for is a stalemate using it since it doesn’t provide a way to take Midnighter down, just avoid certain attacks. But I question how useful it is against explosions if they might possibly disperse his form. I remember an incident with him escaping a helicopter crash with his mist form but I don’t recall details about it. Could you look that up (I feel like It was in his solo series but I can’t say for sure) and post it for me? But either way, for Backlash to win he has to be solid, and with Midnighter knowing when he’ll become solid, its not like Backlash will get the drop on him and might very well get himself knocked out or killed right when he materializes. Misting is a stalling tactic in this fight, not much more.

You come back to the speed of thought thing, but I really think that should be dropped. With examples like Grifter dodging them, the whips are hardly unavoidable. Even if you think Midnighter can only move as fast as a whip, he’d still know to move before Backlash even attacked, so if, like you suggest, they move at the same time, but Midnighter knew the attack was coming and moved first, he’d never be hit. Backlash’s whips have also been said to move as fast as a bullet and Midnighter smacks those out of the air with sticks.

I also think you should drop the Warblade thing. Warblade was surprised by being strangled from behind but was unharmed and attacking back shortly after. No lasting damage was done. And you’re trying to say that because he doesn’t even react to being shot in the head that him reacting to damage from the whips is significant, but it isn’t. Warblade’s abilities developed HUGELY after that run in with Backlash. And as Bane said, that level of reaction that caused in Warblade was similar to getting shot. Not really impressive to Midnighter.

I think you missed Bane’s point on the comparison with Zealot. The legitimacy of the fights is irrelevant. The point was that Zealot has insane damage soak and Backlash doesn’t demonstrate that level of ability to eat damage. And Jack Hawksmoor was fighting on The Carrier, which has long been established as functioning as a city for him. Hawksmoor is a fighter with spider man level agility, precog, and probably at least Thing level strength and durability, and Midnighter beat him like he owed him money and left him bleeding on the floor. You also missed Bane’s point about Winter. It wasn’t about physically beating someone more durable, it was about approaching a fight from more than one direction.

You make the statement that Backlash will negate Midnighter’s damage and that’s a game changer, but that doesn’t lead to a win. To do any damage to Midnighter, Backlash can’t stay as mist, which is how he’d negate damage, and if he goes to mist he can’t do anything to Midnighter and Midnighter would just use any break to heal uninterrupted. So the only one accruing lasting damage during this fight is Backlash. Now, I’m pretty sure Backlash heals some damage while misting, but I don’t can’t say how much. It’d have to be a pretty significant amount though otherwise it would still build up on him much faster than it would on Midnighter. Way I see it, Backlash can delay things, but to actually have a chance at winning he has to give up his defense while Midnighter’s is always on.

Moderator
#36 Edited by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb1329GJvO1rzz3r3o1_500.gif

@buckshot said:

@strider92:

I’m going to come at this whip speed thing a little more directly than I normally would and I’m just going to use the pages you’ve already presented (since I haven’t read Team 7 stuff in forever and can’t recall details). You’re trying to support the speed of the whips using examples of Backlash using his whips on Grifter faster than he could react to, but he doesn’t, not really. In your first set of examples its not that he gets his whips going faster, its that Grifter simply cannot use his own psionic powers. The text clearly points this out, saying that his mojo (what they called their abilities early on and still occasionally) just wasn’t working anymore. Of course Backlash will get his whips out before Grifter can use his tk…when Grifter can’t use his tk. Even in the first panel we see Grifter trying and failing before Backlash attacks. In your second set of scans, despite the speed you want to credit the whips with, we see Grifter dodge them at first. He eventually gets caught, but that’s not a surprise.

I was actually expecting Bane to pull me up on this in the reply (which sadly never came). That was a fault on my part I hadn't read the scan properly and for some reason whcih I cannot fathom at the time I was under the impression Grifters powers were still working (maybe a heat of the moment thing and not keeping an eye on what i was posting). IIRC Backlash was able to out-perfom Grifter during one of the Kindred Arcs when both of them were vets compared to their Team 7 days. I'll try and find the scans as i'm not sure I have those arcs on my PC.

@buckshot said:

Midnighter is far faster than Grifter, because he’s physically much faster and because he can see every move coming. Grifter eventually getting caught suggests less about how MIdnighter will fare than Grifter being able to dodge in the first place. Additionally, that set of scans actually goes to show how Backlash does in a psionic speed contest. Unlike in the first set of scans, in this one he’s actually against an enemy with functioning psionic abilities, but who gets their shot off first? Not Backlash. Your examples do not show Backlash’s whips to be something Midnighter, with his superhuman senses, awareness, and speed, to be incapable of dodging easily and often. And as much as you’d like to discredit Midnighter’s display against Lamplighter, it’s the closest thing presented to Midnighter actually dealing with Backlash’s whips. It’s a light-based construct directed by thought. There is nothing limiting its movement but the speed it can be directed and Midnighter easily avoided the attack. So the whips, the best chance Backlash has for doing damage to Midnighter probably won’t even hit him with any consistency.

I don't recall Grifter retaliating in that fight. He lept aside tried to get his bearings before becoming snared. He obviously didn't have ample time to mount a TK attack or he would have done before Backlash caught him. Both Grifter and Backlash were novices in Team 7. I believe its quite unfair to compare Midnighter's physical speed to a newbie Grifter and a newbie Backlash catching him. This wasn't ment to be a showing of physical speed or avoidance and shouldn't count as such given how neither of them had a lot of experience back then (Backlash going through his amnesia thing at the time). The showing was ment to be a comparison of psionic speed and not a physical one.

I would highly doubt that Lamplighter was a skillfull with his whip constructs as Backlash not to mention Slayton has two and not one. Not to mention in the scan posted that was "zombie" Lamplighter one of the clones made be Bendix. The clones were nowhere near as impressive as their original counter parts. Heck Midnigther himself beat down his own clone with apparent ease IIRC. If they truly where equal to the real thing then it would have been a stalemate between Midnighter and "zombie" Midnighter but it wasn't in fact it was far from it. So comparing that showing of one of the Stormwatch copies who have been consistently inferior to their original counter-parts and whom even the original has demonstrated the speed and mastery of said constructs as Slayton has with his whips seems unjustified.

@buckshot said:

But the next point of discussion was about if they did, and Midnighter’s durability/damage soak. Bane’s position was that, in addition to Midnighter’s high durability and regeneration, he can simply turn off his pain receptors and function unhindered by ridiculous amounts of damage, so even if Backlash could land a hit, and even if he did damage, and beyond that, even if that damage wasn’t quickly repaired, Midnighter would still go on to beat him to death because none of it would bother him if he chose not to let it.

Physical damage yes. Midnighter recovers from really well and I even acknowledged that. My argument was that Slayton's whips also inflict psionic damage. We've seen demonites be hurt even killed by his whips and they are able to possess their hosts and push through a lot of physical trauma. I'm not arguing they are on the same level as Midnighter with regards to regen which of course they are not. I'm simply pointing out that beings that can resist physical pain have pain can and have been hurt by Backlash's whips due to their psionic out-put. I know Midnighter is immune to telepathy but has he ever shown any kind of resistance to psionic attacks?

@buckshot said:


Your response about space makes very little sense to me. You assert that Backlash has more durability than Nemesis or Zealot because of his Kherubim physiology, and this is supported by examples of Backlash and Nemesis being in space. This confuses me because if your thought is that Kherubim physiology grants greater durability, you should hold that Nemesis and Zealot have at least equal durability to Backlash since they are also Kherubim, and in fact Zealot is Backlash’s mother, so if he has great durability then he got it from her. (And I can’t remember right now if Backlash is even full Kherubim, but I can’t be bothered to check.) As for the space thing, Backlash himself isn’t sure how long he’d survive and counts that as the worst position he’s ever put himself in. He may be relatively calm about it, but he knows he’d die if left in that position for long, just like Nemesis without her force field. But even if that did show greater durability for Backlash, it wouldn’t actually impact the point Bane was making. Midnighter is still going to shrug of strikes better than Backlash will. The ability to survive in space briefly doesn’t have much to do with anything. Batman can do it too and that it won’t stop Midnighter from putting a fist through his brain. And I just want to get on this Midnighter thing real quick, Midnighter only being there for a few seconds doesn’t mean that he could only be there for a few seconds. He was there for as long as it took to complete his task and left. There was nothing, not even his reaction when getting back to earth, suggesting he would have died with a second more. And him being frozen has nothing to do with his personal durability (and really, the lack of pressure in space is nothing like brute force being applied to your body in a fight), its just the artist deciding to clearly show a temperature difference. Superman has frozen over in space as well, it has nothing to do with him, just the temperature around him. As for your example of Slayton getting burned up, Midnighter went hand to hand with the sun so I’ll just ignore it.

True I elaborated poorly on that part something i'll rectify here. Nemesis even with her force-fields acknowledged she would die if they went down (thankfully Majestic showed up to prevent that). She unlike Backlash is a full Kherubim the very physiology Backlash is crediting his resistance to the crushing pressure of in said scan. By all accounts Nemesis should be equal but what you have to account for is naturally higher durability (for example Kaine has shown to be more durable than Peter Parker despite the fact he's Peter's genetic double) and the fact that Backlash is an unknown half-breed. He was the son of Lord S'lyton and an unknown mother (Zealot has never been even suspected as his mother IIRC) so the extra durability could be attributed to his unknown other half. As S'lyton lived on the Khera colony Atlantis its very unlikely that she was human given that humans have never been shown Khera maybe an Adrastea given Slayton's latent pisonic abilities? Anyway i'm diverging.

I don't see how that scan has nothing to do with durability as even in modern times if you get sucked out of an airlock it can input upward of 2000psi of force and thats if you're roughly the same size as the opening you're getting dragged through. That kind of pressure takes superhuman durability to take and Backlash seemed quite casual about it.

I never said Midnighter could only be there for a few seconds. He could probably survive longer the point is that when he came back he was coughing up blood and bleeding out of his nose after as you said "barely a few seconds" Backlash on the other hand was out there for far longer practically floating through space with no real signs of discomfort. Yes he acknowledged he couldn't take it forever but he was still in much better condition than Midnighter was after a longer period in space's vaccum.

You'll have to refresh my memory on the hand to hand with the Sun feat. Got any scans?

@buckshot said:

And there you bring up misting, which is really the only reason Backlash can be in this fight. But with mist-kills not allowed, the best he can hope for is a stalemate using it since it doesn’t provide a way to take Midnighter down, just avoid certain attacks. But I question how useful it is against explosions if they might possibly disperse his form. I remember an incident with him escaping a helicopter crash with his mist form but I don’t recall details about it. Could you look that up (I feel like It was in his solo series but I can’t say for sure) and post it for me? But either way, for Backlash to win he has to be solid, and with Midnighter knowing when he’ll become solid, its not like Backlash will get the drop on him and might very well get himself knocked out or killed right when he materializes. Misting is a stalling tactic in this fight, not much more.

I think this is the one you're referring to:

He dematerialized during the fall and pulled himself back together at the end. True Backlash generally uses this defensively as a way to negate damage. He uses this ability to what I can only assume is breaking himself down on a molecular-level (I don't think it was ever elaborated on how it works exactly all we really know for sure is that it renders him intangible) and he uses his psionics to pull himself back together.

The thing is this power isn't limited to just himself. He has down it to people and objects in the past like here:

This stunt was pulled after his powers were purged so if a weakened Backlash one who could only mist once a day can do this while reacting to someone movign at superspeed then one who could mist himself on command without any discomfort should be more than capable fo this. This could be applied to Midnighter's weapons should Slayton get his hands on them or even a part of Midnigther himself and if Slayton decided it would be better if Midnighters arm didn't re-materialize I would call that some extensive damage.

@buckshot said:

You come back to the speed of thought thing, but I really think that should be dropped. With examples like Grifter dodging them, the whips are hardly unavoidable. Even if you think Midnighter can only move as fast as a whip, he’d still know to move before Backlash even attacked, so if, like you suggest, they move at the same time, but Midnighter knew the attack was coming and moved first, he’d never be hit. Backlash’s whips have also been said to move as fast as a bullet and Midnighter smacks those out of the air with sticks.

Not saying you're wrong as its a comparison that could have been made but do you have a scan of someone saying that they move at the same speed as bullets? I don't see why the speed of thought thing should be dropped as its not like a character in the story is saying "His whips are moving so fast they're like the speed of thought" that could easily be misconstrued as hyperbole or just over-exaggeration by the character (such as Spider-man saying Morlun hit him harder than Thor or Hulk) this was a direct narration from the writer not a characters opinion but a direct statement it seems strange to disregard it as the writer has gone out of his way to give a measurement of speed. As I touched on earlier Backlash was inexperienced with his whips at the time compared to how he was in Stormwatch ontop of that he was conflicted about what he was doing to Grifter.

@buckshot said:

I also think you should drop the Warblade thing. Warblade was surprised by being strangled from behind but was unharmed and attacking back shortly after. No lasting damage was done. And you’re trying to say that because he doesn’t even react to being shot in the head that him reacting to damage from the whips is significant, but it isn’t. Warblade’s abilities developed HUGELY after that run in with Backlash. And as Bane said, that level of reaction that caused in Warblade was similar to getting shot. Not really impressive to Midnighter.

Again I agree Warblade has been developed since then and has incredible healing feats but even back in the old Image/Wildstorm days I don't recall him ever having much trouble shrugging off a bullet let alone screaming in pain at one. This was just another scan to show how characters with good resistance to physical trauma have caused harm to them due to the psionic nature of the whips themselves.

@buckshot said:

I think you missed Bane’s point on the comparison with Zealot. The legitimacy of the fights is irrelevant. The point was that Zealot has insane damage soak and Backlash doesn’t demonstrate that level of ability to eat damage. And Jack Hawksmoor was fighting on The Carrier, which has long been established as functioning as a city for him. Hawksmoor is a fighter with spider man level agility, precog, and probably at least Thing level strength and durability, and Midnighter beat him like he owed him money and left him bleeding on the floor. You also missed Bane’s point about Winter. It wasn’t about physically beating someone more durable, it was about approaching a fight from more than one direction.

The difference is Backlash doesn't need to demonstrate damage soak because he can avoid it altogether. Despite that Backlash has matched and even defeated Zealot in hand to hand with her landing a good few blows (due to him having his once a day restriction during their fight) and with her superhuman strength this is no small feat so to say he cannot damage soak seems unjustified as he can but just chooses not to because he can. Its a logical decision to make. Would you rather tank the pain or avoid it altogether? I know which one i'd go for:

I will concede the point about Hawksmoor I don't remember that fight and just went by what I saw. Ie: Midnighter and Hawksmoor fighting with no context.

Actually you are wrong about Bane's point he states multiple times he is talking about Midnighter's ability to inflict physical damage. First he leads off with this:

"There are a lot of examples I can quote for Midnighter's ability to lay a hurting on beings immensely more durable than Backlash, but I'll save them for later and post one more: here's Midnighter taking out Winter by cutting off the blood supply to his brain."

Then he goes on to say this:

"To get an idea of how much blunt force damage Winter could soak, here's Winter vs the High, a Superman analogue strong enough to shatter the moon with one hit."

Clearly creating a comparative between Midnighter's ability to inflict enough blunt-force trauma to cut off the blood to his brain to the amount of physical trauma Winter was able to soak from High. Which is irrelevant as Winter soaks up kinetic energy making him stronger hitting a weak spot when he had no kinetic charge from previous blows could be accomplished by anyone with the knowledge on Winter.

@buckshot said:

You make the statement that Backlash will negate Midnighter’s damage and that’s a game changer, but that doesn’t lead to a win. To do any damage to Midnighter, Backlash can’t stay as mist, which is how he’d negate damage, and if he goes to mist he can’t do anything to Midnighter and Midnighter would just use any break to heal uninterrupted. So the only one accruing lasting damage during this fight is Backlash. Now, I’m pretty sure Backlash heals some damage while misting, but I don’t can’t say how much. It’d have to be a pretty significant amount though otherwise it would still build up on him much faster than it would on Midnighter. Way I see it, Backlash can delay things, but to actually have a chance at winning he has to give up his defense while Midnighter’s is always on.

True he can't inflict damage on Midnighter in his mist form (if we over look the his ability to mist objects other than himself) and yes it would be very very hard for him to put Midnighter out of commission permanently here. However death is only one of the win options. KO and Incapacitation still count as a win. Breaking Midnighter's neck KO'd him (granted it was brief but still worked):

Backlash's morals would not prevent him doing this (he's misted his arms around someones neck to do just that) not to mention Incapacitation that Slayton has done to enemies in the past:

The point is that I believe given the range of his whips and the speed and agility they have demonstrated in both ranged and close combat, coupled with his misting allowing him to avoid the worst of what Backlash can throw at him should give him the opportunity to inflict a temporary kill/KO or an incapacitation.

#37 Edited by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:

Look at your own scans. I wasn’t saying Grifter took him down. The guy with the long white hair and glasses brings Backlash down with a psionic attack. So to summarize, your examples do not show Backlash’s whips to consistently operate faster on the draw in comparison to other psionics, and also show them to be avoidable by a human level combatant. Nothing of what you showed displays speed that Midnigher would have to worry about. Heh, you think it’s unfair to compare a “newbie” (in quotes because even at that point he was extremely well-trained soldier) Grifter to Midnighter for speed, but even Grifter at his best isn’t really a match for Midnighter’s speed. So if Grifter can avoid the whips at ANY level, Midnighter can easily duplicate such a feat. That’s why even if you can find Backlash outperforming Grifter, it really won’t matter much since Grifter isn’t on Midnighter’s level. I also think its funny that you think you can make the example only be used one way. You wanted to use it to say that it’s faster than psionic attack (by showing it against someone not using a psionic attack) but in your example we see it being slower than physical movement. You may have wanted to use it for one purpose but the image supports Midnighter, not Backlash. You can’t really tell me NOT to see whats put on the panel. The whips, while incredibly fast, can be avoided by human combatants, and can certainly be avoided by Midnighter, who is superhumanly fast and able to predict where the whips will go before Backlash even decides to use them.

Now for this Lamplighter thing, you can’t really tear it down. Even if Lamplighter isn’t as skillful as Backlash, it doesn’t really matter since him trying to hit a target that close doesn’t seem like a skill intensive thing. He’s just trying to hit something really close to him with a weapon (the light) that obeys his thoughts and doesn’t have mass to slow it down. Would you say Flashpoint or Darkseid require great levels of skill to hit things with their laser vision? It’s following a target. Anyway, now you’re trying to discredit Lamplighter’s abilities further by calling him a zombie. First off I just want to say that’s kind of insensitive. Please don’t use the “Z” word while we’re in conversation, it’s pretty rude. Some of my best friends are members of the Post-Life community. Second, you’re conflating two instances. That wasn’t one of the zombies brought back by Bendix, and I should mention anyway, you recall incorrectly. Midnighter was indeed locked in a stalemate with his double. He was only able to beat it after Jackson King cut off its connection to its implants. But that wasn’t the instance this comes from anyway. These were beings brought back in another instance and displayed all the intelligence and personality of the originals (more actually in some cases). The Amaze that came back fought Apollo and Midnighter together and would have killed Midnighter (by throwing him in the Bleed) if Apollo didn’t save him. So there’s really no reason to doubt that Lamplighter and his attack were the legitimate threats they were originally created to be. So again, Midnighter faced off against something incredibly similar to Backlash’s whips and he responded to it as Bane and I have suggested he might, avoiding the attacks with little difficulty. The only thing you’ve thus far presented to suggest that Backlash will tag him is examples that include someone significantly slower than Midnighter avoiding the whips.

Now to the psionic damage. Can you show him doing significant damage to someone other than a daemonite? I only ask because the daemonites are beings that possess others. They’re usually inhabiting the minds (and bodies) of their hosts. Their link is a psionic one so that could be why a psionic attack is more effective against them. I’ve seen Backlash use his whips on others without complaints of psionic damage. If they were so psionically potent, I feel like it would be a bigger deal in more cases. In fact, quickly looking through your examples, I don’t really see the psionic component. Even with the Daemonite it says that its because of the intense pain (something that won’t necessarily bother Midnighter) that the Daemonite breaks from the host. Show me something where he’s clearly inflicting psionic damage through his whips and we’ll see where we go from there.

Yes, Nemesis would have died without the force field…but so would Backlash. I don’t see how this is a discussion. She would die without forcefields and he knew he could die at any minute in space. They both knew space would kill them. Backlash isn’t more durable than Nemesis just because he can do something Batman, a normal human, can. You’re inventing greater durability that isn’t displayed in that example. And I was thinking of Winter for some reason when talking about Zealot being the mother.

Backlash being able to do this is not that impressive and won’t stop Midnighter from ripping him limb from limb. Midnighter coughing up blood after being in space doesn’t mean he couldn’t easily pop Backlash’s head off his shoulders. Midnighter can walk around on Mars unprotected, he’s survived floating around in the bleed, and as I just mentioned, he’s gone hand to hand with the sun (Authority: Scorched Earth). Doing better or worse in extreme environments matters not at all in this fight. What are you even having this back and forth about durability for? Do you actually doubt that Midnighter could put his fist through Backlash’s body if he landed a hit?

I thought the explosion of the chopper might have affected his misting, but I wasn’t sure, which is why I asked for it. As I said though, either way, it’s still just a stalling tactic. You’re theorizing now that he could mist parts of Midnighter or his weapons and leave them misted, but unless he’s done so, it’s just theory. As you said, we don’t know how his misting works. He may not be able to differentiate what parts of the mist are him and what is others and may be forced to de-mist everything at once. Stick to what he’s shown. And I see you trying to hype up his once a day misting example by saying “if a weak backlash could…” His misting wasn’t weaker when it was lessened, he just couldn’t do it as often. He’s not a weaker backlash in the sense that his misting was actually lowered in quality, it was just reduced in number of uses.

What is the speed of thought? Is it the time it takes a neuron to fire? Is it as fast as you think? How fast can you think of your phone number? How fast can you think of your ex-girlfriends? How fast can you name an animal that’s red? How fast can you multiply 234 by 2? How fast can you work out where a flying ball will end up? The speed of thought is not a set thing depending on the circumstance. You can stick to that wording If you’d like, but the whips are still avoidable as shown by Grifter and others. Anyway, Backlash says “the gloves are off” and how fast are his whips when he’s not holding back? The velocity of a bullet.

http://s436.photobucket.com/user/KherubimBacklash/media/10.jpg.html

Due or to psionic nature of the whips….or maybe just because completely caught off guard and strangled from behind. If Warblade’s screaming in pain it still doesn’t translate to Midnighter especially since Midnighter can choose not to feel pain.

Hahaha, taking a hit from Zealot isn’t the level of damage soak that Midnighter lives on. You can get away with saying “he doesn’t because he doesn’t need to”, but you’ll need to a lot more to say “but he could too”.

Far be it for me to guess at someone else’s point, and if I’m wrong, whatever, it doesn’t actually change anything since Backlash isn’t above Midnighters ability to hurt, but after what you quoted Bane saying, he writes “Punching and kicking wouldn't take down Winter; Midnighter's not strong enough for that. So he picked a less conventional method to deal with an opponent too durable for him to harm by conventional methods.” Looks like he’s clearly saying that Midnighter found another way to beat an enemy that was “too durable for him to harm” and that the examples of the durability posted before were just to support the idea that Winter is potentially above Midnighter’s striking level.

I wasn’t saying that Backlash has no way to win, so I’m not sure why you’re restating the win conditions, but since you are lemme respond to the neck breaking. I’m pretty sure its after that fight that Seth is surprised that Midnighter is alive and he says something to the sound of “you should see my morning work out”. Breaking Midnighter’s neck isn’t a big deal to him, and even if he doesn’t make that statement in that instance, I still think he was playing dead there just to let Seth run off so he’d have the freedom to do what he needed to since he knew he couldn’t actually kill Seth himself. Backlash might be able to break Midnighter’s neck, but if he tries it, he wont be in his damage negation mode so Midnighter will be free to kill him too, and once misting is off the table, Midnighter takes this fight.

Moderator
#38 Edited by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot said:

Look at your own scans. I wasn’t saying Grifter took him down. The guy with the long white hair and glasses brings Backlash down with a psionic attack. So to summarize, your examples do not show Backlash’s whips to consistently operate faster on the draw in comparison to other psionics, and also show them to be avoidable by a human level combatant. Nothing of what you showed displays speed that Midnigher would have to worry about. Heh, you think it’s unfair to compare a “newbie” (in quotes because even at that point he was extremely well-trained soldier) Grifter to Midnighter for speed, but even Grifter at his best isn’t really a match for Midnighter’s speed. So if Grifter can avoid the whips at ANY level, Midnighter can easily duplicate such a feat. That’s why even if you can find Backlash outperforming Grifter, it really won’t matter much since Grifter isn’t on Midnighter’s level. I also think its funny that you think you can make the example only be used one way. You wanted to use it to say that it’s faster than psionic attack (by showing it against someone not using a psionic attack) but in your example we see it being slower than physical movement. You may have wanted to use it for one purpose but the image supports Midnighter, not Backlash. You can’t really tell me NOT to see whats put on the panel. The whips, while incredibly fast, can be avoided by human combatants, and can certainly be avoided by Midnighter, who is superhumanly fast and able to predict where the whips will go before Backlash even decides to use them.

I wasn't saying that Midnighter cannot avoid the whips. What I was saying that given their speed, the fact that Slayton (during his time as Backlash) grew very competent with them should be able to tag Midnighter. Midnighter can and has been tagged by opponents despite his speed and battle computer. There is no reason why Backlash should be an exception to this and visa versa the only difference is that Midnighter can heal and Slayton can dematerialize.

@buckshot said:

Now for this Lamplighter thing, you can’t really tear it down. Even if Lamplighter isn’t as skillful as Backlash, it doesn’t really matter since him trying to hit a target that close doesn’t seem like a skill intensive thing. He’s just trying to hit something really close to him with a weapon (the light) that obeys his thoughts and doesn’t have mass to slow it down. Would you say Flashpoint or Darkseid require great levels of skill to hit things with their laser vision? It’s following a target. Anyway, now you’re trying to discredit Lamplighter’s abilities further by calling him a zombie. First off I just want to say that’s kind of insensitive. Please don’t use the “Z” word while we’re in conversation, it’s pretty rude. Some of my best friends are members of the Post-Life community. Second, you’re conflating two instances. That wasn’t one of the zombies brought back by Bendix, and I should mention anyway, you recall incorrectly. Midnighter was indeed locked in a stalemate with his double. He was only able to beat it after Jackson King cut off its connection to its implants. But that wasn’t the instance this comes from anyway. These were beings brought back in another instance and displayed all the intelligence and personality of the originals (more actually in some cases). The Amaze that came back fought Apollo and Midnighter together and would have killed Midnighter (by throwing him in the Bleed) if Apollo didn’t save him. So there’s really no reason to doubt that Lamplighter and his attack were the legitimate threats they were originally created to be. So again, Midnighter faced off against something incredibly similar to Backlash’s whips and he responded to it as Bane and I have suggested he might, avoiding the attacks with little difficulty. The only thing you’ve thus far presented to suggest that Backlash will tag him is examples that include someone significantly slower than Midnighter avoiding the whips.

How is in not a skill intensive? Green Lantern's create constructs but if they aren't skilled they cannot maintain or even control said constructs effectively. Granted they aren't the same thing as a psionic construct but the point still stands. It still has to be guided, created and sustained by the characters ability.

Ah snap another member of the pro-post-life community. You won't be pro-biters when they rise and try to chow down on ya! Are you sure about that scan? It was from Authority Annual 2000 right? I'm pretty sure that had the Authority attacking one of Bendix's bases years after his death that was guarded by clones of Stormwatch. Do you have scans of that encounter to show otherwise. Its perfectly possible that i'm wrong but it would be nice to know for sure.

Do you have the scans of Midnighter Vs his clone? I remember the real Midnighter's implants being shut off due to Battalion but not the clone's.

@buckshot said:

Now to the psionic damage. Can you show him doing significant damage to someone other than a daemonite? I only ask because the daemonites are beings that possess others. They’re usually inhabiting the minds (and bodies) of their hosts. Their link is a psionic one so that could be why a psionic attack is more effective against them. I’ve seen Backlash use his whips on others without complaints of psionic damage. If they were so psionically potent, I feel like it would be a bigger deal in more cases. In fact, quickly looking through your examples, I don’t really see the psionic component. Even with the Daemonite it says that its because of the intense pain (something that won’t necessarily bother Midnighter) that the Daemonite breaks from the host. Show me something where he’s clearly inflicting psionic damage through his whips and we’ll see where we go from there.

It also says "Backlash focus's the totality of his energy down his psi-whip". What energy other than psionic can that possibly be? Backlash doesn't have the ability to manipulate anything other than his psionic constructs. It seems VERY unlikely it can be anything but psionic as thats all he's been shown to use. You even said it yourself that Daemonites latch on via psionic link which is probably the reason it was kicked out. Which I agree with but his ability has been just as effective against non-psionically based enemies. Bearing in mind this is team 7 Slayton who isn't as experienced or in as good a control of his powers a Backlash Slayton:

@buckshot said:

Yes, Nemesis would have died without the force field…but so would Backlash. I don’t see how this is a discussion. She would die without forcefields and he knew he could die at any minute in space. They both knew space would kill them. Backlash isn’t more durable than Nemesis just because he can do something Batman, a normal human, can. You’re inventing greater durability that isn’t displayed in that example. And I was thinking of Winter for some reason when talking about Zealot being the mother.

Backlash being able to do this is not that impressive and won’t stop Midnighter from ripping him limb from limb. Midnighter coughing up blood after being in space doesn’t mean he couldn’t easily pop Backlash’s head off his shoulders. Midnighter can walk around on Mars unprotected, he’s survived floating around in the bleed, and as I just mentioned, he’s gone hand to hand with the sun (Authority: Scorched Earth). Doing better or worse in extreme environments matters not at all in this fight. What are you even having this back and forth about durability for? Do you actually doubt that Midnighter could put his fist through Backlash’s body if he landed a hit?

After reviewing my post I see where the confusion arose I was under the impression the scan that I will post below had been previously posted when it hadn't. True the environment in space can kill you but my argument was about the pressure applied to Slayton as he was sucked into space:

As I previously stated depending on the size of the area and the object going through it the vacuum can apply tremendous amounts of physical pressure to the body. Its for this reason that Space-ships have extra hull's and containment areas so the pressure can be stabilized and the poor astronauts aren't mushed up by the vacuum as they exit.

@buckshot said:

I thought the explosion of the chopper might have affected his misting, but I wasn’t sure, which is why I asked for it. As I said though, either way, it’s still just a stalling tactic. You’re theorizing now that he could mist parts of Midnighter or his weapons and leave them misted, but unless he’s done so, it’s just theory. As you said, we don’t know how his misting works. He may not be able to differentiate what parts of the mist are him and what is others and may be forced to de-mist everything at once. Stick to what he’s shown. And I see you trying to hype up his once a day misting example by saying “if a weak backlash could…” His misting wasn’t weaker when it was lessened, he just couldn’t do it as often. He’s not a weaker backlash in the sense that his misting was actually lowered in quality, it was just reduced in number of uses.

True it is just a theory but he has done it to other objects and even entire people. I'm just thinking outside the box. Kind of like you did when you said that Midnighter might be able to place Nukes inside Iron Man's armor based on his ability to use doors and how they can be applied. Yes its just a theory but it is possible but I will concede that it is far easier to debate with feats we have actually seen the character to be capable of accomplishing rather than just theorizing what the character should be able to do based on other showings. Just thought i'd throw it out there.

With regards to Backlash's misting after the purge the ability itself wasn't weakened but Backlash's ability to maintain and control it arguably was as it seemed to put a lot of stress on his body and he always stated how drained he felt after pulling himself back together so it isn't really baseless that the power was far more efficient pre-purge not just how often he could accomplish it.

@buckshot said:

What is the speed of thought? Is it the time it takes a neuron to fire? Is it as fast as you think? How fast can you think of your phone number? How fast can you think of your ex-girlfriends? How fast can you name an animal that’s red? How fast can you multiply 234 by 2? How fast can you work out where a flying ball will end up? The speed of thought is not a set thing depending on the circumstance. You can stick to that wording If you’d like, but the whips are still avoidable as shown by Grifter and others. Anyway, Backlash says “the gloves are off” and how fast are his whips when he’s not holding back? The velocity of a bullet.

http://s436.photobucket.com/user/KherubimBacklash/media/10.jpg.html

So we have two scans that basically contradict each other. I would tend to lean towards the original scan (not only because it conveniently supports my arguments lol) but because of how his whips function Ie: psionic constucts. Even if they really are only the speed of a bullet just because Midnighter can avoid a bullet doesn't mean he always will. Not to mention whips have far more coverage than a bullet due to their length. Even in the fight with Lamplight posted above its visible that Midnighter is putting more effort into avoiding that beam than simply side-stepping to avoid a bullet as he has in the past.

@buckshot said:

Due or to psionic nature of the whips….or maybe just because completely caught off guard and strangled from behind. If Warblade’s screaming in pain it still doesn’t translate to Midnighter especially since Midnighter can choose not to feel pain.

Given Warblade's physiology and the nature of Backlash's powers I think it is possible it could be pain however it could be shock from a surprise attack that I will concede too. You keep saying that Midnighter can choose not to feel pain which is true in some circumstances. However has he ever done this consistently in a fight?

In the example Bane showed he was lying down letting people operate on him so the only thing he had to do was consciously decide not to feel the pain. Not contend with anyone attacking him or any other variable. Do you have any scans of Midnighter explicitly saying he's turned of his ability to feel pain in a fight and maintained it? Because if not then this argument is in the same category as my Backlash dematerializing people and objects theory. Yes Midnighter and Backlash should be able to do it given that we've seen them use said abilities in different circumstances but is there any evidence to make this anymore than just a theory outside the specific set of circumstances the feats in question were performed?

@buckshot said:

Hahaha, taking a hit from Zealot isn’t the level of damage soak that Midnighter lives on. You can get away with saying “he doesn’t because he doesn’t need to”, but you’ll need to a lot more to say “but he could too”.

Zealot has super-human strength we've seen that so shrugging off a blow is no small feat but yes it is far from the kind of damage soak Midnighter has shown. Having said that Slayton also has the damage soak feats against Helspont:

Would he win a fight against Helspont. Never not unless he had the Loeb force on his side but the fact remains that Slayton took a point-blank energy blast from Helspont that he then recovered from only to almost get choked out followed by yet another energy blast and managed to survive. Given that Helspont is pretty much a Majestic + level character this a very good feat of damage soak and durability. Was Helspont going all out with those attacks? No but just because Helspont wasn't going all out doesn't make the feat any less impressive.

@buckshot said:

Far be it for me to guess at someone else’s point, and if I’m wrong, whatever, it doesn’t actually change anything since Backlash isn’t above Midnighters ability to hurt, but after what you quoted Bane saying, he writes “Punching and kicking wouldn't take down Winter; Midnighter's not strong enough for that. So he picked a less conventional method to deal with an opponent too durable for him to harm by conventional methods.” Looks like he’s clearly saying that Midnighter found another way to beat an enemy that was “too durable for him to harm” and that the examples of the durability posted before were just to support the idea that Winter is potentially above Midnighter’s striking level.

True but I don't recall bringing Midnighters ability to think outside the box or adapt to a situation into question. Do I think Midnighter could beat Backlash? Yes I believe he could but I also believe that Backlash could beat Midnighter hence the reason for the debate!

@buckshot said:

I wasn’t saying that Backlash has no way to win, so I’m not sure why you’re restating the win conditions, but since you are lemme respond to the neck breaking. I’m pretty sure its after that fight that Seth is surprised that Midnighter is alive and he says something to the sound of “you should see my morning work out”. Breaking Midnighter’s neck isn’t a big deal to him, and even if he doesn’t make that statement in that instance, I still think he was playing dead there just to let Seth run off so he’d have the freedom to do what he needed to since he knew he couldn’t actually kill Seth himself. Backlash might be able to break Midnighter’s neck, but if he tries it, he wont be in his damage negation mode so Midnighter will be free to kill him too, and once misting is off the table, Midnighter takes this fight.

Just reminding myself more than anyone of the win conditions. If the fight was of infinite length and to the death Midnighter would win because Backlash would be unable to inflict the damage required to actually kill him utterly and completely. Its like if you put Deadpool in a fight to the death with Deathstroke. Deathstroke can't actually kill Deadpool so he'll just keep coming back and given that this can be done infinitely then law of averages is that Deadpool will eventually land a fatal hit because he'll never stop coming. I was just giving myself a kick to remember that I should also be arguing that it is possible for Slayton to incapacitate Midnighter with the whips for a win.

The problem is Midnighter doesn't say he's playing dead. Could he be? Sure but it could just as easily and albeit more likely that breaking his neck KO'd him until his healing factor kicked in and had him back up again. Fatal blows have a habit of KOing healers even if it is temporarily. Wolverine has been KO'd twice by having his heart destroyed. Yes he healed and came back but it still KO'd him.

#39 Edited by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Yay, you're back.

I wasn't saying that Midnighter cannot avoid the whips. What I was saying that given their speed, the fact that Slayton (during his time as Backlash) grew very competent with them should be able to tag Midnighter. Midnighter can and has been tagged by opponents despite his speed and battle computer. There is no reason why Backlash should be an exception to this and visa versa the only difference is that Midnighter can heal and Slayton can dematerialize.

You were attempting to show speed, and in your examples, the speed presented was at times insufficient to land a hit on a human level combatant. If you want to show "Backlash can tag Midnighter" I suggest you show Backlash tagging someone of Midnighter's speed and precog. All I'm doing is looking at your argument and seeing that the points don't add up as cleanly as you initially presented them. Of course Midnighter has been tagged, but your examples don't show that Backlash can do it, and even if we take as truth that he can, it doesn't mean he will. Midnighter lets a lot of things happen to him because he enjoys a fight (and sometimes he goes head to head with dozens of superhumans and doesn't get touched once) but if the whips were capable of downing him easily, he'd likely avoid the most dangerous attacks so he could keep fighting and take the ones that wouldn't slow him much and then just heal them. The second part of Bane's argument was that even if Midnighter is hit, his insane durability, damage soak, pain negation, and healing would mean that even if Backlash hits him, it's not even close to a battle ending attack.

How is in not a skill intensive? Green Lantern's create constructs but if they aren't skilled they cannot maintain or even control said constructs effectively. Granted they aren't the same thing as a psionic construct but the point still stands. It still has to be guided, created and sustained by the characters ability.

Ok, taking your example (even though we both know its an entirely different thing), if the skill isn't there, the construct can't be maintained or controlled. But Lamplighter not only maintained his attack on Midnighter, but he also made another construct, a true to life projection of Jenny Sparks. So if he was able to maintain these constructs, he has the skill by your logic flow. Case closed.

Are you sure about that scan? It was from Authority Annual 2000 right? I'm pretty sure that had the Authority attacking one of Bendix's bases years after his death that was guarded by clones of Stormwatch. Do you have scans of that encounter to show otherwise. Its perfectly possible that i'm wrong but it would be nice to know for sure.

Do you have the scans of Midnighter Vs his clone? I remember the real Midnighter's implants being shut off due to Battalion but not the clone's.

I really don't go for putting up scans, it's simply more effort than I like to put into these things (walls of texts I could do for days because these words flow freely but finding files is tedious and that slight amount of effort is too much) but if it will put your mind at ease... Yes I'm sure about the scans. Midnighter fighting Lamplighter was in the 2000 annual. Here's the full page.

Midnighter against his clone was in Authority Prime where the Authority and Stormwatch went after Bendix's base. Below is Lamplighter in that mini for comparison. Next to that is Midnighter against himself and him asking Battalion to disconnect his mind from his implants because the fight is too even.

So again, Lamplighter's abilities can't be assumed to be diminished just because he was a corpse and even if he were the corpse you thought he was, he'd still be just as dangerous, as shown by Midnighter stating he and his clone would be evenly matched. And with that, Midnighter is showing he can, if he choses, avoid an attack incredibly similar to what Backlash will be using. This is the best comparison you can make and Midnighter does well.

It also says "Backlash focus's the totality of his energy down his psi-whip". What energy other than psionic can that possibly be? Backlash doesn't have the ability to manipulate anything other than his psionic constructs. It seems VERY unlikely it can be anything but psionic as thats all he's been shown to use. You even said it yourself that Daemonites latch on via psionic link which is probably the reason it was kicked out. Which I agree with but his ability has been just as effective against non-psionically based enemies. Bearing in mind this is team 7 Slayton who isn't as experienced or in as good a control of his powers a Backlash Slayton:

I see what it says. The whip is psionic energy so him making it more powerful would require him focusing his psionic energy. But what is the effect? It says intense pain. He inputs more psionic energy, but the output isn't stated to be psionic damage. In fact, in the scan you go on to show next, we see him talking about volts. That's the kind of damage I've always thought of Backlash doing, electrical damage, in which case, Midnighter's psychic defenses aren't a factor.

After reviewing my post I see where the confusion arose I was under the impression the scan that I will post below had been previously posted when it hadn't. True the environment in space can kill you but my argument was about the pressure applied to Slayton as he was sucked into space:

The problem with this is that IIRC (don't feel like scrolling, laziness is apparently one of the signatures of my debating style) you were presenting this space feat as a comparison with Midnighter and Nemesis' space experiences. And if you're doing that you can't really make a comparison between how they handled the pressure of being sucked into space because Midnighter wasn't sucked out a window like that (so there's no comparison) and Nemesis is having a flashback when the window near her is broken (so nothing there for us to compare). If you want to say Backlash handled space better than Midnighter, you can, but you can't really say he handled the pressure of getting sucked out any better because we don't see that for the other two. So if its space itself, sure Backlash is better than Midnighter, but that doesn't matter. If it's pressure, there's nothing you can really say since they weren't in the same situation. Either way, the feat impacts this battle not at all.

True it is just a theory but he has done it to other objects and even entire people. I'm just thinking outside the box. Kind of like you did when you said that Midnighter might be able to place Nukes inside Iron Man's armor based on his ability to use doors and how they can be applied. Yes its just a theory but it is possible but I will concede that it is far easier to debate with feats we have actually seen the character to be capable of accomplishing rather than just theorizing what the character should be able to do based on other showings. Just thought i'd throw it out there.

Kind of like I did, but not really. Even if you don't think a Door can open into a body, it can open into a relatively empty space. There are empty spaces within the armor for Midnighter to use. Him dropping a pocket nuke into Iron Man's mouth or stomach isn't a stretch. But that's not what we're talking about anyway.

So we have two scans that basically contradict each other. I would tend to lean towards the original scan (not only because it conveniently supports my arguments lol) but because of how his whips function Ie: psionic constucts. Even if they really are only the speed of a bullet just because Midnighter can avoid a bullet doesn't mean he always will. Not to mention whips have far more coverage than a bullet due to their length. Even in the fight with Lamplight posted above its visible that Midnighter is putting more effort into avoiding that beam than simply side-stepping to avoid a bullet as he has in the past.

They don't contradict (unless you have some number for the speed of thought that you can say was being referenced). That's why I asked you those questions about thinking. If someone shot at you, are you sure a full thought would go through your brain before the bullet did? The speed of thought is not a set speed. Its a good description for a weapon that moves as fast Backlash can think of moving it a certain way, but I don't know what the measurement is. And with the Lamplighter example I've already shown that Midnighter can avoid something like those whips.

Given Warblade's physiology and the nature of Backlash's powers I think it is possible it could be pain however it could be shock from a surprise attack that I will concede too. You keep saying that Midnighter can choose not to feel pain which is true in some circumstances. However has he ever done this consistently in a fight? In the example Bane showed he was lying down letting people operate on him so the only thing he had to do was consciously decide not to feel the pain. Not contend with anyone attacking him or any other variable. Do you have any scans of Midnighter explicitly saying he's turned of his ability to feel pain in a fight and maintained it? Because if not then this argument is in the same category as my Backlash dematerializing people and objects theory. Yes Midnighter and Backlash should be able to do it given that we've seen them use said abilities in different circumstances but is there any evidence to make this anymore than just a theory outside the specific set of circumstances the feats in question were performed?

Diminished pain seems more likely to be the norm than the other way around. When he fights Jukko and gets stomped Jukko says "Oh yes, I also turned back on your pain receptors. How many years has it been since you truly felt pain?" Midnighter doesn't talk about his pain so there's no way to know where his pain level is all the time, but the indication from various responses to attacks is that he either doesn't feel much pain or the massive amounts of pain he does feel he just ignores. Also, this is not like Backlash dematerializing people. (lol, you keep coming back to that) Midnighter can turn his pain on and off. Backlash can dematerialize himself and others. These are things they can and should be able to do. What you were talking about was Backlash dematerializing someone with himself and leaving them separate. You haven't shown any evidence that this can be done, so until you do, don't act like its something he should be able to do.

Would he win a fight against Helspont. Never not unless he had the Loeb force on his side but the fact remains that Slayton took a point-blank energy blast from Helspont that he then recovered from only to almost get choked out followed by yet another energy blast and managed to survive. Given that Helspont is pretty much a Majestic + level character this a very good feat of damage soak and durability. Was Helspont going all out with those attacks? No but just because Helspont wasn't going all out doesn't make the feat any less impressive.

Yes, it does make it less impressive. You bring up how he's a Majestic level character to show his power, but then admit that Helspont couldn't have been going all out. If Backlash had taken Majestic level blasts and survived that would be more impressive. In any case, Backlash "soaking" damage by being laid out on the floor after both blasts is also less impressive than if he could keep fighting. After that last scan I'm pretty sure he's just laying in the water for the entirety of the next page. Just panels and panels of him being laid out. Midnighter getting walking through an explosive gauntlet standing next to Apollo and coming out just as damaged but standing is more impressive. Him taking a kick that sent him flying into a mountain and turning that into a acrobatic flip and landing is more impressive. Him getting impaled through the chest and continuing his fight is more impressive. Him getting an electric baton to the nuts then beating the sh!t out of the three people that were holding him is more impressive. Him going shot for shot with an angry Jack Hawksmoor then winning is more impressive. Him fighting in acid that was eating through the Carrier is more impressive. These things are more impressive because Midnighter is still able to go on after these damaging attacks. Backlash being laid out after hits from Helspont doesn't put his damage soak anywhere near Midnighter's.

True but I don't recall bringing Midnighters ability to think outside the box or adapt to a situation into question. Do I think Midnighter could beat Backlash? Yes I believe he could but I also believe that Backlash could beat Midnighter hence the reason for the debate!

I was just making sure you understood Bane's point since you were taking it to be saying that Midnighter could out damage Winter directly, which wasn't the point.

The problem is Midnighter doesn't say he's playing dead. Could he be? Sure but it could just as easily and albeit more likely that breaking his neck KO'd him until his healing factor kicked in and had him back up again. Fatal blows have a habit of KOing healers even if it is temporarily. Wolverine has been KO'd twice by having his heart destroyed. Yes he healed and came back but it still KO'd him.

Even if Midnighter wasn't playing dead, this wouldn't really help Backlash since I don't see him breaking Midnighter's neck. The problem of Backlash landing a hit still exists. And if Midnighter is allowing some hits (for fun or tactical advantage), he's not likely to allow Backlash to snap his neck even if he'd allow him some more minor hits. If Backlash somehow got into a position to break Midnighter's neck and Midnigher wasn't close enough to just kill him right back, he could always bring his tech into play. Dropping an explosive on both of them would either hurt Backlash more or force him to mist, either way the neck breaking attempt would be ended. And that's not even mentioning Doors.

Backlash's ability to land significant hits on Midnighter hasn't been established, and without a way to do actual damage to Midnighter, there's nothing for him to do but get dusted. Midnighter's precog, speed, agility, and multiple forms of damage and pain negation mean he can avoid or eat the majority of damage the whips can put out and with his fists, weapons, or explosives he can dictate the flow of battle with Backlash's being option being to mist, which will never get him a win and can still end with him dying or getting knocked out if Midnighter strikes him when he rematerializes, which his precog will allow him to do.

Moderator
#40 Edited by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#41 Posted by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: I was a lazy a$$ and forgot this was going on. Consider my interest in this reinstated.

#42 Posted by Night4345 (4131 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Posted by MonsterStomp (17887 posts) - - Show Bio

Man, I gotta get into some Backlash and Warblade.