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#1 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

The world's greatest Super Solider vs the Dark Knight

This is a CaV match up, rules for this battle go as followed

  • New 52 and Pre 52 feats are allowed for Batman
  • All Metal Gear sources allowed for Snake
  • Morals on
  • Standard gear for Snake (OctoCamo, Solid Eye, SOCOM, Stun Knife, Frag Grenades, Chaff Grenades etc.)
  • Standard gear for Bruce
  • No allies, or external help
  • Both are fully rested and in good health
  • Battle is won by Death, KO, Incapacitation or Surrender

Battle takes place here

Rules regarding location go as followed

  • No BFR (lol)
  • No Bystanders, it is completely abandoned
  • All terrain seen in this photo is available to them
  • 50 meter starting distance
  • Sun is just beginning to set, a very long battle would probably result in darkness

This is CaV, you are welcome to comment but please don't provide your own personal opinions/arguments.

Good luck sir.

#2 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Edited by jashro44 (19640 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck to both of you.

#4 Posted by dondave (34442 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to be good

Online
#5 Posted by cooljammy18 (835 posts) - - Show Bio

Nick is going to use a plethora of gameplay mechanics as feats for Snake. Calling it right now lol. :p

Anyway, this is going to be good.

#6 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Posted by nickzambuto (12922 posts) - - Show Bio

Nick is going to use a plethora of gameplay mechanics as feats for Snake. Calling it right now lol. :p

Anyway, this is going to be good.

Snake has a bad case of Cutscene Power To The Max. Bringing up gameplay mechanics would actually hurt my argument considering it's a stealth game, and Snake can't do sh!t during gameplay.

@calebhara Looking great! I'm excited!

#8 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Perfect, i can have an argument up later tonight if you want me to start. I need to get some scans together.

#9 Posted by nickzambuto (12922 posts) - - Show Bio

Solid Snake; a soldier who can do anything, known as the man who makes the impossible possible. Fluent in six languages and possessing an IQ of 180, Solid Snake is the pinnacle of military combat capabilities. Genetically engineered by man to be the ultimate warrior, Solid Snake was endowed with an abundance of "soldier genes" and possessing heightened senses and instinctual combat capacity as a result. When in combat, Snake is described "as if possessed by a demon." He naturally adapts and learns on the spot, effectively making him unbeatable, even against foes with the same soldier genes.

0:00 - 1:15

(skip to) 2:35 - 3:20

Vulcan Raven, a mystical shaman monk and legendary warrior, remarks Snake as being "from another world" and praises his fighting ability.

Psycho Mantis, the greatest telepath and supernatural telekinetic on the planet, is outsmarted by Snake and swiftly defeated (you might argue the controller gimmick, but the actual canon of how this went down is in question since there's a variety of ways for the player to defeat him. I still think it is worth mentioning)

Defeats Liquid Snake, despite suffering already from severe fatigue and injury. Liquid was biologically crafted to be Solid's superior, yet David still beats him through pure heart and superior experience.

Old Snake's famous fight against Ocelot at the end of MGS4, even in his old age David maintains great agility and dexterity in combat, once again despite suffering from numerous injuries and absolute exhaustion. Most of what Snake does is through instinct and adaption, but you can see him display a great amount of technical knowledge in this fight as well. He doesn't know any fancy schmancy nerve strike techniques, but he can still parry hits from the greatest Spetsnaz operative in Soviet Russia and make use of a variety of advanced grapples and strikes to gain leverage on his physically superior opponent.

What each of these fights have in common: they are great examples of Snake's ability to overcome any foe. His soldier genes are what give him an edge over Batman, since he can adapt to whatever happens (Raven and Mantis are self explanatory; mystics with a variety of hax powers. Liquid was superior to Snake on the genetic level but defeated through experience; Ocelot stomped Snake previously, but the same trick doesn't work twice. At the end when it's all or nothing, Snake always finds a way to overcome)

Getting into hand to hand combat with the Goddamn Batman is sketchy. It'd probably be best for Snake to just shoot him in the head. That simple. Utilizing superior technology and stealth skill, Snake can elude the Dark Knight, and take him by surprise. It's the same way Snake beat Big Boss, a character who is both a better tracker than Batman, and has superior senses (Big Boss has superhuman senses, and is a world class hunter, so if Snake can sneak up on him, that's more than enough to say he can sneak up on Batman)

#10 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Old Snake's famous fight against Ocelot at the end of MGS4, even in his old age David maintains great agility and dexterity in combat, once again despite suffering from numerous injuries and absolute exhaustion. Most of what Snake does is through instinct and adaption, but you can see him display a great amount of technical knowledge in this fight as well. He doesn't know any fancy schmancy nerve strike techniques, but he can still parry hits from the greatest Spetsnaz operative in Soviet Russia and make use of a variety of advanced grapples and strikes to gain leverage on his physically superior opponent.

Of course he was able to maintain all of those things in his old age. He stated near the beginning of the game that "his armour acted as a muscle suit" and enhanced his physical stats. I'll admit, Liquid is a formidable opponent, but i do not beleive that either one of these people have fighty ability that can rival Bruce Wayne. Liquid is the greatest spetznas operatives in Soviet Russia, but Bruce is one of the greatest martial artists in all of DC history.

What each of these fights have in common: they are great examples of Snake's ability to overcome any foe. His soldier genes are what give him an edge over Batman, since he can adapt to whatever happens (Raven and Mantis are self explanatory; mystics with a variety of hax powers. Liquid was superior to Snake on the genetic level but defeated through experience; Ocelot stomped Snake previously, but the same trick doesn't work twice. At the end when it's all or nothing, Snake always finds a way to overcome)

I don't see how Bruce is any different, after all he is a member of the Justice League and has to deal with meta-human foes on a daily basis. And he is similar to Snake in the way that he defeats them. He has outwitted some of the greatest minds in the DC universe. He has beaten people based on his his adaptive ability and tactical mind alone. He has faces foes that would make the people in the metal gear universe piss their pants and surrender just after seeing what they can do, he is no minor when it comes to overcoming opponents at all.

Getting into hand to hand combat with the Goddamn Batman is sketchy. It'd probably be best for Snake to just shoot him in the head. That simple. Utilizing superior technology and stealth skill, Snake can elude the Dark Knight, and take him by surprise. It's the same way Snake beat Big Boss, a character who is both a better tracker than Batman, and has superior senses (Big Boss has superhuman senses, and is a world class hunter, so if Snake can sneak up on him, that's more than enough to say he can sneak up on Batman)

A formidable strategy, however, Bruce's gear and stealth abilities could allow him to spot Snake, potentially find him before he manages to take cover in the first place. I'll get into that later.

I guess i'll start with my preliminary post now.

I’ll start off by talking about fighting ability, because this is an area that I believe that Snake is completely outclassed in. I have never seen Snake’s skill as even comparable to Bruce. Snake is a soldier, he has advanced military training. Yet Bruce dispatch entire squadrons of military soldiers. He has master the military style of close quarters combat. Yet, Bruce has mastered over 120 styles of close quarters combat. Snake can take out small squadrons of soldiers and hold his own against skilled opponents like liquid ocelot. Yet Bruce laughs in the face of highly trained martial artists, his skill is only match by a few people on the earth.

Bruce can block/counter any attack that Snake can throw his way. It is unlikely that there is a single move in Snake’s arsenal that Batman doesn’t know. When it comes to martial knowledge, Snake is simply outclassed. I can provide you with pages of training/learning feats that Bruce has, proof that he has mastered a plethora of martial arts. I doubt that you could show me one video of Snake receiving any type of formal training.

Bruce can take him out with long distance strikes before Snake can get close and comfortable, he can dance around him with his superior agility, or take him out using nerve strikes/pressure points that Snake didn’t even know were on his body.

What can Snake do against a man that disable his body parts using nerve strikes? Snake has no answer to Bruce’s pressure point attacks.

And here, I’ll leave you with this feat for now. Batman beats Ras Al Ghul hand to hand, despite the fact that Ra’s has had decades of martial training. He has been alive for more than 100 years and has far more training that Snake has.

How about physicals? From what I have seen, Bruce and Snake are pretty much on par with each other, but there are a few exceptions I have noticed.

In terms of speed, they are near equals; both bullet dodgers (arguably bullet timers) and they have dodge/avoided gunfire through out their whole careers. But there is an area in which Batman’s speed is greater than Snake’s. In that area that matter the most in this fight, combat speed. Snake may have ridiculous speed feats, but his speed is not very applicable in the area of hand-to-hand combat. He has average combat speed, and when engaging large groups he has often had to engage them almost one by one. Bruce, on the other hand, has insane combat speed feats. And has often blitzed groups of people before they can react. Here rushes and disarms around half a dozen armed guard before any of them can react.

In terms of strength, they are also near equals. Snake’s lifting strength is pretty close with that of the Bruce, but once again, there is an area that Bruce has the upper hand. Striking power. Bruce’s striking power simply outclasses Snake’s. Snake may have some feats where he punches/ kicks through bricks. But that Is nothing that Bruce hasn’t done, and then one-upped. There have been a few occasions that Bruce has punched enemies through solid walls. Steel doors even. I don’t see how anyone could debate that these aren’t superior feats. As instead of just punching through a solid object, he has had to transfer the kinetic energy of his blow through a human body so that it still obtains the same amount of force needed to break through the solid wall.

Kicking bane straight through a steel door. (who is a larger opponent than Snake)

Punches an armored SWAT officer. This man suffered 5 broken ribs and internal bleeding from ONE strike. It is inevitable that this strike will do damage to Snake.

I’ll get into Stealth and tactical thinking later, but it is obvious that neither has an extremely significant advantage over the other in either field.

One of the fields in this battle that I strongly believe that batman has an advantage in is his gear. He has strong explosives, ranged attacks, tazers, pheromones, gasses, etc. He has stealth counters, such as contact lenses that have zooming lenses and thermal scanners. He is able to see through walls, and see enemies coming from afar. Snake will have to make his way to cover if wants a chance of sneaking up on Bruce, but chances are, Bruce will be able to see him coming no matter what. Almost all of Bruce’s gear is more advanced than Snake. Not only that, but he has a lot more of it. Through out Bruce’s career, I think that he has been able to utilize his gear in a more effective manner. He has taken out very powerful met human opponents using his gear alone.

Bruces thermal/zooming lenses.

His offensive game when it comes to gear is unstoppable. He has many ways of putting down snake using his standard gear. Here are some examples. How would Snake fair against 50,000 volts?

Or he could drop a convenient magnet. How does Snake’s gear hold up against something as powerful as this?

Snake has lots to worry about when he faces Batman, Bruce has hundreds of ways of putting down Snake, where as Snake is limited to a few options. Bruce is another one of those people who can overcome almost any opponent that he faces. He beats meta humans and super powered villains on a daily basis. He can overcome opponents using pure will power, gear, martial ability, or peak human physicals.

#11 Posted by nickzambuto (12922 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara

Of course he was able to maintain all of those things in his old age. He stated near the beginning of the game that "his armour acted as a muscle suit" and enhanced his physical stats.

OctoCamo isn't armor, its primary function is camouflage. It is stated to mildly help with Snake's age, but by David's own admittance it brings him no where near his prime, and Otacon even refers to it as nothing but a crutch. Not to mention it was totally wrecked by the microwave room beforehand.

I'll admit, Liquid is a formidable opponent, but i do not beleive that either one of these people have fighty ability that can rival Bruce Wayne. Liquid is the greatest spetznas operatives in Soviet Russia, but Bruce is one of the greatest martial artists in all of DC history.

Liquid Snake is not Revolver Ocelot. Ocelot was only pretending to be Liquid to fool the Patriots, everything he did in MGS4 was under his own skill and training, whereas everything Liquid did in MGS1 was as himself.

And Bruce Wayne being one of the greatest martial artists in DC is a moot point, as Ocelot is likewise one of the greatest soldiers in Metal Gear. Both Liquid and Ocelot would be considered top tier Batman villains if they were thrown into his universe, I actually consider them both more skilled than a good variety of his normal rogues. Liquid was smart enough to instigate a large-scale military uprising and manipulate an entire armed force into following him, and managed to hold off the U.S. Government long enough to make Shadow Moses his fortress. Additionally, he was a member of the British SAS, who are considered elite. Ocelot earned status of Major in GRU while still a teenager, and even headed his own unit (who were in turn considered the best in all of Spetsnaz). If guys like Riddler and Ra's al Ghul have done something that totally blows these few random facts out of the park, let me know. In fact, when it comes to marksmanship, Batman has only ever faced one opponent who I would call superior to any given member of FOXHOUND, and if Deadshot didn't subconsciously pull his shots, Batman wouldn't face him much longer anyway.

I don't think any Batman villain has the skill to shoot down two hypersonic fighter planes in the middle of a blizzard with just a Hind; a helicopter wouldn't be able to keep up with their speed, let alone firepower, targeting, etc. Nor can any Batman villain master a fighting style to the point of stalemating the creator, just by watching people do it. Solid Snake on the other hand, has faced such opponents. What's the greatest thing Two-Face or Penguin have ever done?

I don't see how Bruce is any different, after all he is a member of the Justice League and has to deal with meta-human foes on a daily basis. And he is similar to Snake in the way that he defeats them. He has outwitted some of the greatest minds in the DC universe. He has beaten people based on his his adaptive ability and tactical mind alone.

Snake's soldier genes are an edge over anybody, just like Cap's super soldier serum or Daredevil's radar sense. They allow him to counter whatever an enemy throws out through pure reflex. Batman is a great strategist, but I think of Snake as the smarter combatant when it comes to tactics and improvisation. Like I said, he was literally made to fight.

He has faces foes that would make the people in the metal gear universe piss their pants and surrender just after seeing what they can do, he is no minor when it comes to overcoming opponents at all.

Besides the once-in-a-blue-moon Darkseid or some such, exactly who are you referring to? Batman has faced a few galactic threats as a member of the JLA - but that's only as a member of the JLA. On his own, Batman's usual fair is gangsters. A far cry from a genetically enhanced super soldier army that Snake completely destroyed.

Snake is a soldier, he has advanced military training. Yet Bruce dispatch entire squadrons of military soldiers.

Has he actually done this, or are you basing your assumption off a predetermined scale of Batman's skill formed from how good he is simply supposed to be?

He has master the military style of close quarters combat. Yet, Bruce has mastered over 120 styles of close quarters combat.

Mastering so-and-so styles of martial arts is just a way for writers to pass off a character as super skilled without really bothering to actually show it. Batman has numerous feats that are much more impressive. In any case, Solid Snake is the clone of a man who actually invented his own fighting style, which is a much superior showing of natural talent and understanding of fighting, then simply mastering a bunch of random styles (which, Snake has done just FTR. He didn't use CQC for nearly two decades, had to rely on a system of various other techniques, as mentioned by Master Miller)

Snake can take out small squadrons of soldiers and hold his own against skilled opponents like liquid ocelot. Yet Bruce laughs in the face of highly trained martial artists, his skill is only match by a few people on the earth.

What exactly sets Liquid Ocelot apart from these "few people on Earth" who can give Batman trouble? Either way, it's a lot more than "a few". Batman isn't even in the top 10 best DC fighters, whereas Solid Snake is literally the number one greatest warrior in his planet's entire history. When it comes to raw, hand to hand combat, the only people better than Snake are maybe the Boss and Big Boss.

I doubt that you could show me one video of Snake receiving any type of formal training.

Snake has been trained his entire life, joining the Green Berets while still a teenager, and having personal instruction from Zero and the Patriots even before that. He's served in the army, spent years as a CIA operative, and was recruited by FOXHOUND before hitting 20 (FOXHOUND training trumps everything Bruce has learned). Batman was trained by a bunch of no-name, supposed "legendary martial artists", but Solid Snake learned personally from Kazuhira Miller, Frank Jaeger, and Big Boss, each bringing several distinct specialties to the table. He continued to self train himself as a member of Philanthropy, and upon adopting CQC once again as he aged, Snake engaged in intense practice sessions. I can't show you any clips of this training because Snake is supposed to be the war torn experienced badass, so of course they skipped over his rookie years. What I CAN show you though, are numerous instances of Snake not being trained, but training others. The legend of Solid Snake, hero of Outer Heaven, Zanzibarland, Shadow Moses, and countless others, stretches far in the Black Ops world. Some of the most highly trained and elite operatives in the business look to Snake as a guide and superior. Meryl Silverburgh, Johnny Sasaki, Hal Emmerich, and more are all touched by Snake, and look to him as a leader and superior. Even Raiden, the child soldier/enhanced government operative, is left in awe of Snake's combat capabilities, and constantly seeks his advice and approval, even after his cyborg upgrades.

Bruce can take him out with long distance strikes before Snake can get close and comfortable, he can dance around him with his superior agility,

Snake is physically superior to Batman by a decent bit.

What can Snake do against a man that disable his body parts using nerve strikes? Snake has no answer to Bruce’s pressure point attacks.

Actually utilizing nerve strikes in active combat isn't as easy as it looks considering how precise you need to be. Regardless, Snake is skilled enough to parry most of these attempts. He's dealt with more dangerous attacks than nerve strikes (knives wielded by 10 tonners for one) and his pain tolerance and durability is enough to deal with whatever happens.

But there is an area in which Batman’s speed is greater than Snake’s. In that area that matter the most in this fight, combat speed. Snake may have ridiculous speed feats, but his speed is not very applicable in the area of hand-to-hand combat. He has average combat speed, and when engaging large groups he has often had to engage them almost one by one. Bruce, on the other hand, has insane combat speed feats. And has often blitzed groups of people before they can react. Here rushes and disarms around half a dozen armed guard before any of them can react.

That scan isn't so cut and dry, Batman himself deadpans that the soldiers weary to shoot because of the close quarters and fear of hitting Hyland. Snake is enhanced human, and his physicals mostly surpass Batman's. He has likewise blitzed groups soldiers before they could pull the trigger, such as on the elevator leading to REX's underground storage lab, but the difference is, Snake actually blitzed. There is no hesitance from a Genome Soldier, and everyone was widely spread out across the platform. Snake also did the same thing to four stealth camouflage equipped invisible soldiers in the second tower's elevator ambush, killing several enemies, before anyone could pull off a single shot, without the luxury of actually seeing what you're hitting.

Snake has blitzed bullet timers and defeated a whole enemy unit in the time it took Raiden to walk down a hall. He's cleared an entire room of guards before Stillman could finish his sentence, and matched guys like Gray Fox move for move. Add to that, Snake's reflexes and reaction time are much superior to Batman's as well, what with dodging railguns and jumping off missiles.

Striking power. Bruce’s striking power simply outclasses Snake’s. Snake may have some feats where he punches/ kicks through bricks. But that Is nothing that Bruce hasn’t done, and then one-upped. There have been a few occasions that Bruce has punched enemies through solid walls. Steel doors even. I don’t see how anyone could debate that these aren’t superior feats. As instead of just punching through a solid object, he has had to transfer the kinetic energy of his blow through a human body so that it still obtains the same amount of force needed to break through the solid wall.

They're not arm wrestling, comparing strength directly is pointless. What we should do, is compare strength to durability. In doing that, it becomes evident that Snake has an advantage hit-for-hit. Whereas Batman will struggle to injure Snake at all, every blow David deals will be crushing. His pain tolerance is off the charts, as I've mentioned before, as is his endurance.

Gets shot straight through the chest by a high caliber rifle round; just gets up like it's nothing.

5:05 endures severe electrical torture at the hands of the world's foremost interrogation expert. Snake bared through a total of six sessions with four shocks in each, getting longer and more powerful every time. He goes on to complete the rest of his mission despite admitting to being in incredible pain.

Throughout MGS4, Snake experienced numerous nanomachine induced seizures and kept fighting, whereas other soldiers simply died from them. From the MGS4 novel;

His chest felt like it was being crushed. Blinking, breathing, every act of simply staying alive brought an avalanche of pain cascading upon him. He felt like his thoughts and awareness, and everything that made up his consciousness, were completely shut off from himself. He had only made it a single step foward, and from there, he could no longer move.

Snake struggled to retain his consciousness. He fought against the crumbling world with everything he had. At the edges of his awareness, the other soldiers shared in the agony. They were all around him, some convulsing on the ground, others frothing at the mouth, a few shitting themselves uncontrollably, and on and on.

Snake looked for Meryl's squad. Ed, Jonathan, and Meryl had collapsed with their hands clutched at their heads. Only Akiba seemed unaffected, helplessly watching his comrades suffer.

Snake gritted his teeth. "It's not over yet. I can't fall here. Not yet." He told himself. "I cannot leave my fate, my curse, to Meryl and Sunny's generation. After I finish what I must, then I will happily die. But not now. I still must fight."

Naomi deadpanned that, in Snake's age, a normal man wouldn't even be standing anymore. Now pain tolerance is one thing, and it takes a helluva lot to continue your mission after being stabbed three times in the chest with a stun knife that oneshots normal soldiers, but durability is another. As I've said, Batman will struggle to injure Snake at all, nerve strikes might actually be a necessity here. Snake tanks hits from 100 tonners and survived getting punted across the room by an 80 foot tall robot. Revolver Ocelot dents reinforced steel with his bare hands, but as you can see in their fight, him continuously wailing on Snake's face over and over again didn't so much as draw blood.

0:50 takes a 300 foot vertical dive into water, outswims a giant robot, places a tracker on Ocelot, swims 20 miles back to shore, and sprints all the way to Federal Hall in time to catch Raiden fighting Solidus. The most an average man can fall into water from without breaking bone is 90 feet. Snake ended up fine.

8:10 Snake literally takes no damage from Liquid nuking the roof.

Goes through a microwave hall, which Mei Ling stated would begin to completely vaporize any living being in seconds, whilst having a seizure and getting struck by electric prods.

Meanwhile, in terms of striking power, Snake has what it takes to destroy Batman.

Liquid Snake, who survived falling hundreds of feet inside an exploding helicopter and tanked numerous RPGs to the face, succumbs to Snake's fists (Snake's punches pack more power than a rocket)

Beats down the Cyborg Ninja with his bare hands, who in turn survived getting stomped on by Metal Gear REX.

Summary: Batman has the strength to punch men through bricks and metal, but he'll find Snake's iron skin a little bit tougher to pierce. Conversely, Snake packs enough power to have a guy who withstands several pounds of C4 blowing up in his face, coughing up blood. Hit-for-hit, the soldier has the advantage.

As for gear, this isn't really clear cut, but simply put: Snake has guns. He can just shoot Batman in the face and be done with the fight. Yes, it's that easy, Snake is a marksman more than capable of hitting Batman. Bruce can try and pull out the magnet, but how is he going to feel when a chaff grenade disables everything he's carrying on him? This would definitely distract Wayne for a moment; giving Snake the edge he needs to put one between the playboy's eyes.

OctoCamo is immune to all forms of imaging and radar, so none of Batman's gadgets are going to help him track Snake.

Gekko are unable to find Snake after he vanishes from their sight.

The OctoCamo copies the exact color, pattern, and even texture of whatever it's pressed up against, and added with it's resistance technological detection, makes Snake all but completely invisible. Batman simply has no way of finding Snake; David already snuck up on a far superior tracker than Batman (Big Boss) and that was without the suit. With it, he's unbeatable.

My entire post focused on the prospect of a hand to hand showdown, and all my points still stand, but the fact remains that it should be all too easy for Snake to toss a grenade, cause some chaos, disappear, and pop Bruce in the head. Regardless of how sneaky Batman is, Snake can detect him with the Solid Eye, whereas Batman, can't.

#12 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: OctoCamo isn't armor, its primary function is camouflage. It is stated to mildly help with Snake's age, but by David's own admittance it brings him no where near his prime, and Otacon even refers to it as nothing but a crutch. Not to mention it was totally wrecked by the microwave room beforehand.

I recall Otacon saying this, but i also recall Snake seemingly referring to it as being more than just a crutch. When Meryl asked Snake if he was going to be "all right" while dealing with a group of enemies, she seemed to reference his physical condition in his old age. He says something like "I'm fine, this armour doubles as a muscle suit." He acted like it was because of his octocamo that he was able to get by.

This is rather irrelevant anyways, as they are both in their prime for this fight.

Liquid Snake is not Revolver Ocelot. Ocelot was only pretending to be Liquid to fool the Patriots, everything he did in MGS4 was under his own skill and training, whereas everything Liquid did in MGS1 was as himself.

Sorry about this, it was a brain-dead typo, i do know the difference.

And Bruce Wayne being one of the greatest martial artists in DC is a moot point, as Ocelot is likewise one of the greatest soldiers in Metal Gear. Both Liquid and Ocelot would be considered top tier Batman villains if they were thrown into his universe, I actually consider them both more skilled than a good variety of his normal rogues.

Sure, standard military training would normally beat out Batman's rouge gallery of villains. But that is because any of them have little to no formal training at all (enough to take out street thugs albeit). The reason that any of these people are able to actually challenge Bruce is because they spend, weeks, months sometimes years trying to trying to craft elaborate schemes and plans to stop Bruce. They almost always resort to using their nearly endless resources and criminal mastermind to take him down. They are all fully aware that it would be foolish to take him on in a real fight.

I don't think any Batman villain has the skill to shoot down two hypersonic fighter planes in the middle of a blizzard with just a Hind; a helicopter wouldn't be able to keep up with their speed, let alone firepower, targeting, etc. Nor can any Batman villain master a fighting style to the point of stalemating the creator, just by watching people do it. Solid Snake on the other hand, has faced such opponents. What's the greatest thing Two-Face or Penguin have ever done?

He fought the Bronze Tiger to a stalemate until he was KO'ed by a blowdart. This is not only one of DC's top 5, maybe 3 martial artists, but he trained Richard Dragon, who taught Bruce in his early years.

Besides the once-in-a-blue-moon Darkseid or some such, exactly who are you referring to? Batman has faced a few galactic threats as a member of the JLA - but that's only as a member of the JLA. On his own, Batman's usual fair is gangsters. A far cry from a genetically enhanced super soldier army that Snake completely destroyed.

Try Superman, Wonder Woman, Bizarro, Dr. Light, Morgaine La Fey (a sorceress, wonder woman villain). There have been many times where Batman has gone up against JLA villain single-handedly.

Has he actually done this, or are you basing your assumption off a predetermined scale of Batman's skill formed from how good he is simplysupposed to be?

He has actually done this. Here, he disbatches and entire squadron of highly-trained military commandos. They were all a part of the special forces.

Mastering so-and-so styles of martial arts is just a way for writers to pass off a character as super skilled without really bothering to actually show it. Batman has numerous feats that are much more impressive.

This can be truly said abut characters such as Captain America. But Bruce has actual feats that allow him to back up this claim as far as training goes.

In any case, Solid Snake is the clone of a man who actually invented his own fighting style, which is a much superior showing of natural talent and understanding of fighting, then simply mastering a bunch of random styles (which, Snake has done just FTR. He didn't use CQC for nearly two decades, had to rely on a system of various other techniques, as mentioned by Master Miller)

Bane has done the exact same thing, and Batman has shown time and time again to be Superior to him in close quarters combat.

Liquid was smart enough to instigate a large-scale military uprising and manipulate an entire armed force into following him, and managed to hold off the U.S. Government long enough to make Shadow Moses his fortress. Additionally, he was a member of the British SAS, who are considered elite. Ocelot earned status of Major in GRU while still a teenager, and even headed his own unit (who were in turn considered the best in all of Spetsnaz). If guys like Riddler and Ra's al Ghul have done something that totally blows these few random facts out of the park, let me know. In fact, when it comes to marksmanship, Batman has only ever faced one opponent who I would call superior to any given member of FOXHOUND, and if Deadshot didn't subconsciously pull his shots, Batman wouldn't face him much longer anyway.

Try Deathstroke, who is faster and stronger than most of the people from the MGS series and can dodge bullets from a dozen shooters at the same time. He americas most wanted assassin yet, the US government has never been able to take him down. Bane, who can toss cars several feet and literally rip his foes limb from limb with pure physical strength. Azreal, who could lift 5 ton trees and do a one-handed kinetic benchpress of 600 pounds, for reps. Or better yet, Prometheus. A man who has outsmarted, and beaten one of the most powerful JLA lineups of all time. Bruce, has beaten him on two occasions.

Deadshot may try to pull his shots, that much is true. But so is the fact that on multiple occasions Bruce has moved too fast for the worlds greatest marksman to hit in the first place.

The evidence speaks for itself. Bruce has shown time and time again that he can move too fast for Deadshot to hit.

Snake has been trained his entire life, joining the Green Berets while still a teenager, and having personal instruction from Zero and the Patriots even before that. He's served in the army, spent years as a CIA operative, and was recruited by FOXHOUND before hitting 20 (FOXHOUND training trumps everything Bruce has learned).

Can you prove this statement? Show me some evidence that would suggest that FOX HOUND training is superior to the plethora of martial art's techniques that Bruce has learned?

Batman was trained by a bunch of no-name, supposed "legendary martial artists", but Solid Snake learned personally from Kazuhira Miller, Frank Jaeger, and Big Boss, each bringing several distinct specialties to the table. He continued to self train himself as a member of Philanthropy, and upon adopting CQC once again as he aged, Snake engaged in intense practice sessions.

No names like Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon? There is ted grant, the world's greatest Boxer. David Cain, a man knows literally every pressure point on the human body. Tsunemoto, who is considered to be the most deadly martial assassin that has ever been in the Yakuza. You claim that these people are "no names" yet i can provide actual feats for most of them. I can show you what they can do, and i can who you how good these people are when it comes to martial arts and close quarters combat. You can't do the same thing for the people that have taught Snake.

I can't show you any clips of this training because Snake is supposed to be the war torn experienced badass, so of course they skipped over his rookie years. What I CAN show you though, are numerous instances of Snake not being trained, but training others. The legend of Solid Snake, hero of Outer Heaven, Zanzibarland, Shadow Moses, and countless others, stretches far in the Black Ops world. Some of the most highly trained and elite operatives in the business look to Snake as a guide and superior.

And i can show you the same thing for Bruce. How he trained Nightwing, who is now considered to be one of the top martial artists in all of DC, Tim Drake, Damian Wayne, Cassandra Cain (who is considered by some to be up with the Karate Kid in terms of puer martial skill). He taught the entire lauge of Assasins combat techniques that they didn't know. Every single one of those mean have trained in hand to hand combat techniques their whole lives.

Even Raiden, the child soldier/enhanced government operative, is left in awe of Snake's combat capabilities, and constantly seeks his advice and approval, even after his cyborg upgrades.

Lol, i love Raiden, he is too sick, and i am aware that he has been greatly influenced by Snake. But how about Superman? The most powerful being on the planet, and he marvels at Bruce's combat skill. He has been taught by Bruce himself, and this training has helped him through out decades of fighting enemies that miles beyond anyone in MG.

He was taught by "earths greatest proponent." The Goddam Batman.

Actually utilizing nerve strikes in active combat isn't as easy as it looks considering how precise you need to be. Regardless, Snake is skilled enough to parry most of these attempts. He's dealt with more dangerous attacks than nerve strikes (knives wielded by 10 tonners for one) and his pain tolerance and durability is enough to deal with whatever happens.

As much as i don't agree with this statement, i'll say this. He only needs one hit, and then Snake can't use an arm, or a leg, or he drops to the ground paralyzed. Bruce has been able to use nerves strikes and pressure point attacks on meta humans.

Snake has blitzed bullet timers and defeated a whole enemy unit in the time it took Raiden to walk down a hall. He's cleared an entire room of guards before Stillman could finish his sentence, and matched guys like Gray Fox move for move. Add to that, Snake's reflexes and reaction time are much superior to Batman's as well, what with dodging railguns and jumping off missiles.

Can i see these feats?

They're not arm wrestling, comparing strength directly is pointless. What we should do, is compare strength to durability. In doing that, it becomes evident that Snake has an advantage hit-for-hit. Whereas Batman will struggle to injure Snake at all, every blow David deals will be crushing. His pain tolerance is off the charts, as I've mentioned before, as is his endurance.

I think that you are seriously underestimating Bruce's durability. He is not greatly outclassed in this field at all. Bruce has taken hits that are much harder than anything that Snake could do. He has on several occasions been struck by meta humans with a high degree of superhuman strength., got back up, and kept fighting. I have serious issues believing that "every strike snake lands will be crushing", when Bruce has taken hits much harder than anything Snake will ever produce.

Prometheus is a man that can download fighting styles directly into his brain. He has single handedly taken on the JLA. He uses a Baton that is capable of delivering superhuman blows that are far superior to Snake's strikes.

He let Retro use it, a man who isn't even peak human, and he was able to split an anvil in half with one strike. When has Snake ever shown striking power sufficient enough to do this?

Then, Bruce beats him in a close quarters fight. Taking a direct hit from the baton right to the stomach. Prometheus has physicals equal, if not superior to Bruce. If an average man like Retro is able to split an anvil in half with a mediocre blow, you can only begin to imagine what kind of power would be delivered by a peak human with no morals like Prometheus.

He took a MASSIVE beating from Ultimate Clayface. Who is far beyond class 100, and has exchanged blows with Supergirl, Wonder Woman and Powergirl. Bruce got up, pulled himself out of debris that had fallen on top of him, and took both Clayface and Mr. Freeze out despite being so badly just before that.

He takes a beating from someone that is far superior to Snake in terms of strength. Bruce gets back up, and keeps fighting. I'm still not seeing any way for Snake to land a blow that will be "crushing to Bruce"

Beats down the Cyborg Ninja with his bare hands, who in turn survived getting stomped on by Metal Gear REX.

Summary: Batman has the strength to punch men through bricks and metal, but he'll find Snake's iron skin a little bit tougher to pierce. Conversely, Snake packs enough power to have a guy who withstands several pounds of C4 blowing up in his face, coughing up blood. Hit-for-hit, the soldier has the advantage.

Not at all. Batman has KO'ed Bane, who withstood being stoned alive by more than 100 Bricks (not passing out, not falling into unconsciousness He actually broke free and killed his torturers shortly after.) He has KO'ed Deathstroke in one kick, who has taken blows from class 100's like Aquaman and Green Lantern. He has kicked through a reinforced steel door that was built to withstand missiles. He is not greatly outclassed by Snake in terms of strength or durability, not at all.

As for gear, this isn't really clear cut, but simply put: Snake has guns. He can just shoot Batman in the face and be done with the fight. Yes, it's that easy, Snake is a marksman more than capable of hitting Batman. Bruce can try and pull out the magnet, but how is he going to feel when a chaff grenade disables everything he's carrying on him? This would definitely distract Wayne for a moment; giving Snake the edge he needs to put one between the playboy's eyes.

Not a very likely scenario. He has been too fast for Deadshot to hit, who has better marksmanship feats than Snake. Not to mention the fact that Bruce is a bullet timer, who can dodge bullets after they have been shot from the gun. It really doesn't matter how good your marksmanship skills are when someone is fast enough to dodge your bullets, after they have been fired.

The OctoCamo copies the exact color, pattern, and even texture of whatever it's pressed up against, and added with it's resistance technological detection, makes Snake all but completely invisible. Batman simply has no way of finding Snake; David already snuck up on a far superior tracker than Batman (Big Boss) and that was without the suit. With it, he's unbeatable.

It not like Snake can just run around invisible with OctoCamo turned on. It clearly shows that in order to blend in with his surroundings he has to be still, and very still at that. When the watermelon touches him, the suit takes time to transform, and that means that he wont be "invisible" if he makes any rapid movements.

That being said, they being in an open alleyway, so Snake has more then enough time to get to cover and pop OctoCamo, but by the time that happens, Bruce will already be after him, knowing exactly where he is.

My entire post focused on the prospect of a hand to hand showdown, and all my points still stand, but the fact remains that it should be all too easy for Snake to toss a grenade, cause some chaos, disappear, and pop Bruce in the head.Regardless of how sneaky Batman is, Snake can detect him with the Solid Eye, whereas Batman, can't.

It won't be easy. Bruce laughs in the face of Grenades, can see Snake before he gets to cover, and dodge whatever Snake can throw at him. On the other hand, it would be all too easy for Bruce to put him down using pressure points, or dropping him using Toxins and Non-lethal gasses. He he can take higher ground within an instant, and move around the battle field much faster than Snake can.

Your move sir, good job so far.

#13 Edited by nickzambuto (12922 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara

I recall Otacon saying this, but i also recall Snake seemingly referring to it as being more than just a crutch. When Meryl asked Snake if he was going to be "all right" while dealing with a group of enemies, she seemed to reference his physical condition in his old age. He says something like "I'm fine, this armour doubles as a muscle suit." He acted like it was because of his octocamo that he was able to get by.

That is not correct.

3:40 Meryl was incredibly worried about Snake (she just found out about his accelerated aging moments ago) and Snake was just trying to end the conversation as quickly as possible (he doesn't like talking about his age). It's pretty clear that he is just brushing it off and the suit doesn't actually do much for him. As Otacon explains, all it does is help his circulation.

Hardly much help. Snake still had an enlarged heart, inflamed lungs, arthritis, hardened arteries, and a bunch of other symptoms I can't remember off the top of my head.

This is rather irrelevant anyways, as they are both in their prime for this fight.

The fact that he did certain things as Old Snake that a young Batman couldn't, or would at least struggle with (dodging railguns, going through a microwave hall, defeating the B&B Corps, getting catapulted five stories into the air and landing like it's nothing) should give context to how superior a young Snake would be.

Sure, standard military training would normally beat out Batman's rouge gallery of villains. But that is because any of them have little to no formal training at all (enough to take out street thugs albeit). The reason that any of these people are able to actually challenge Bruce is because they spend, weeks, months sometimes years trying to trying to craft elaborate schemes and plans to stop Bruce. They almost always resort to using their nearly endless resources and criminal mastermind to take him down. They are all fully aware that it would be foolish to take him on in a real fight.

Are you saying Batman's villains are smarter than Metal Gear ones? The antagonists in Metal Gear routinely make attempts at complete global domination with practical, real-life obstacles overcome through pure strategic manipulation. Revolver Ocelot earned high ranking statuses in each major Cold War organization, at the same time (triple crossed an entire country). Colonel Volgin raised an army through large scale manipulation, then gained control of the most powerful weapon in the world and planned to overthrow all of Russia, planting his own puppets in power so that he could control everything. Solidus Snake organized the hostile takeover of Big Shell, kidnapping of the president, hijacking of Arsenal Gear and newly developed purified hydrogen bomb, manipulation of an infamous mercenary company and super powered special forces unit, and holding all of America hostage, all while staying underground and below the Patriot's radar, despite the fact that they were actively searching for him. Most of Batman's antagonists are crooks and gangsters. Joker and Ra's are the only Batman rogues who's goals and status can match the main villain of any Metal Gear game.

He fought the Bronze Tiger to a stalemate until he was KO'ed by a blowdart. This is not only one of DC's top 5, maybe 3 martial artists, but he trained Richard Dragon, who taught Bruce in his early years.

Batman was on the losing end of that fight, he even admitted it. Even with prep, Batman once failed to beat Bronze Tiger.

Either way, that is a moot point. Bronze Tiger isn't in the top 5 best DC martial artists, but even if he was, it doesn't matter since Solid Snake is THE best fighter in his world. Snake has the edge in terms of titles and legend, and I also believe he does when it comes to actual martial arts feats.

"Skill" is a broad term, people on CV think it's so simple for someone to just be "more skilled" then another, but that is not the case. There are a lot of things that go into skill; Batman knows more actual techniques then Snake, but the soldier has other advantages. The vigilante might be more directly agile than Snake, but that doesn't matter in a fist fight. Reaction time and flexibility matter, which despite being 5 years out of practice and admitting his arctic suit made it hard to move, Snake displays plenty of in this altercation (ducking under the ninja's slash, avoiding the ninja's kick without switching his stance, dodging the debris then quickly recovering and using the momentum to further his next attack, and each of the ninja's attacks were beyond bullet speed).

The first fight ended in a stalemate, but Snake defeated Gray Fox in their second encounter.

Besting Ra's al Ghul is good, but Ra's isn't a 100 tonner who can cut bullets midair. Additionally, Gray Fox was the best FOXHOUND agent in the unit's entire history aside from Snake, so by equivalent, he is just as skilled as Ra's too.

Snake also beat Vamp in CQC and nullified his powers. Vamp is an opponent who is most likely superior to Batman in every way.

This single clip has so many goodies for Vamp! His skill is tremendous!

  • Dislocates his own neck to avoid the thrown sword, then instantly pops it back in place
  • Unmatched pain tolerance and damage soak
  • Holds the advantage over Raiden despite the cyborg's immense strength, power, and "mastery of combat"
  • Raiden's sword goes red hot from all the friction against it (that's some speed!)
  • Senses Raiden's approach from behind and deftly leaps over his head, tossing a volley of throwing knives in his wake
  • Basically dances around Raiden and outmaneuvers him at every turn

Batman rarely if ever faces enemies in direct combat as deadly as Vamp and Gray Fox.

He has actually done this. Here, he disbatches and entire squadron of highly-trained military commandos. They were all a part of the special forces.

Batman only beat a few of them, then he was just like "f*ck it" and threw down some sleep gas.

Those were brilliant scans though.

This can be truly said abut characters such as Captain America. But Bruce has actual feats that allow him to back up this claim as far as training goes.

Boy you better not be dissin' Cap or it's about to get heavy in here... :P jk

Try Deathstroke, who is faster and stronger than most of the people from the MGS series and can dodge bullets from a dozen shooters at the same time. He americas most wanted assassin yet, the US government has never been able to take him down. Bane, who can toss cars several feet and literally rip his foes limb from limb with pure physical strength. Azreal, who could lift 5 ton trees and do a one-handed kinetic benchpress of 600 pounds, for reps. Or better yet, Prometheus. A man who has outsmarted, and beaten one of the most powerful JLA lineups of all time. Bruce, has beaten him on two occasions.

  1. Deathstroke always beats Batman
  2. I think Big Boss is stronger than Bane off venom. He is, after all, the strongest human in the world (or at least that which was shown). And Snake beat him. By comparison, most of Bane and Batman's fights end in stalemates (I think Bruce beat him once).
  3. Azreal is strong, but he lacks in skill.
  4. Prometheus has beaten Batman at least a few times.

Bruce has shown time and time again that he can move too fast for Deadshot to hit.

By comparison, Snake has shown time and time again that he can move too fast for both Fortune and Crying Wolf to hit, both of whom used railguns as their primary weapon. Old Snake even dodged a mach 20+ projectile from Crying Wolf, despite being caught off guard. I think moving too fast for hypersonic attacks is better than bullets (which Snake has done plenty of anyway)

Show me some evidence that would suggest that FOX HOUND training is superior to the plethora of martial art's techniques that Bruce has learned?

Just the fact that FOXHOUND as a unit was far more elite than any of the random martial artists Bruce learned from.

"FOXHOUND specialized in covert, solo infiltrations, to cope with local revolutions, regional complications, and global terrorist activities in "unauthorized" combat zones too politically-sensitive to intervene through conventional means. Its agents are also trained to complete various missions that are assigned in secret, to the extent that they are considered the modern versions of the ninja. All its members were battlefield hardened veterans, with many coming from a mercenary background. Because of its status as a hi-tech special forces infiltration unit, any and all members of FOXHOUND are heavily trained and rigorously taught a wide field of survival, martial, and operational skills; from a plethora of insertion and maneuvering methods, from skydiving techniques and underwater infiltrations, in order to cover all possible routes of infiltration into an enemy nation; advanced outdoor survival skills, including scenarios regarding long period wilderness survival and a wide range of harsh environments; acute stalking, detonation operations, wireless communication, procuring and reusing enemy weapons, gathering information, varying martial arts, emergency medical operations, languages, and hi-tech devices." -Metal Gear Solid Official Database (by Konami itself)

Under leadership from Big Boss and his assortment of lieutenants, the average MSF soldier can destroy a tank unit singlehandedly. FOXHOUND>MSF. This is the basic FOXHOUND entrance exam.

Physical

  • Physical fitness test
  • Short-distance running
  • Uninterrupted performance of 80 push-ups
  • Uninterrupted performance of 100 sit-ups
  • FOXHOUND recruits doing sit-ups.
  • 50 meter freestyle-stroke swim
  • Combat diving skill
  • Cross-country march (travelling 64 km [40 miles] in under 15 hours, carrying a 30 kg [67 pounds] backpack)

Psychological

  • Mental recovery, concentration, endurance, self-control and the fortitude to overcome difficult situations
  • ESP expectancy score
  • Marksmanship
  • Recognizing and making decisions in emergency situations

Intelligence

  • Foreign languages
  • Foreign geography
  • Knowledge of world events
  • Advanced technology
  • Medical procedures
  • Detonation operations
  • Stealth communication
  • Foreign weaponry

Drills

  • Battlefield survival (14 weeks)
  • Shooting practice (must score at least 95% for a target at 914 m [3,000 ft], and 100% for a target at 548 m [1,800 ft])
  • Guard patrol
  • Mountaineering
  • FOXHOUND recruits climbing a mountain.
  • Hand-to-hand combat
  • Border infiltration
  • Guerrilla warfare
  • Land navigation
  • Map-reading
  • Escape and evasion
  • Combat medical skills
  • Rebelling and Ranger practice
  • Weapons familiarization
  • Nautical vehicle control and navigation
  • Diving and underwater infiltration
  • Canoeing
  • Basic military parachute skills (4 weeks)
  • Special operations freefall practice (High-Altitude, Low-Opening [HALO] and High-Altitude, High-Opening [HAHO])
  • 11 jumps carrying little to no combat equipment ("Hollywood")
  • 15 jumps with full combat equipment
  • 2 nighttime jumps
  • 2 mass-tactical strategic jumps
  • Intelligence gathering
  • Language and customs of the destination country (4 weeks)
  • Stealth techniques
  • Improvised explosive devices
  • Utilization of high-tech equipment
  • Communications (16 weeks)
  • Medical exam (10 weeks)
  • Torture endurance

After all this crap is accomplished, THEN actual training starts.

No names like Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon? There is ted grant, the world's greatest Boxer. David Cain, a man knows literally every pressure point on the human body. Tsunemoto, who is considered to be the most deadly martial assassin that has ever been in the Yakuza. You claim that these people are "no names" yet i can provide actual feats for most of them. I can show you what they can do, and i can who you how good these people are when it comes to martial arts and close quarters combat. You can't do the same thing for the people that have taught Snake.

Fair enough, though the last statement is false. Big friggin Boss has quite a few number of feats.

But how about Superman? The most powerful being on the planet, and he marvels at Bruce's combat skill.

That's because Superman has no idea how to fight. The people I mentioned, despite already incredible combat skill, still have something to learn from Snake.

Can i see these feats?

I'm sorry. I meant to post those clips.

I already showed most of that already above in my post, here's Snake clearing the soldier unit very quickly:

7:05 Raiden heard Snake beating on a guard and caught a glimpse of him sprinting away. Raiden immediately ran after him down the hall, and only managed to catch this. Raiden even complimented the mysterious assailant on his skills.

I think that you are seriously underestimating Bruce's durability. He is not greatly outclassed in this field at all. Bruce has taken hits that are much harder than anything that Snake could do. He has on several occasions been struck by meta humans with a high degree of superhuman strength., got back up, and kept fighting.

I'm not underestimating Batman's durability, I'm just saying Snake's is higher. Has Batman ever gotten kicked in the face by a 500 ton robot? Snake tanked getting slammed against a wall and strangled by Vamp, a character strong enough to parry hits from Raiden, and despite losing several pints of blood from a cut induced by the Romanian, Snake was up and about again in a few minutes.

He took a MASSIVE beating from Ultimate Clayface. Who is far beyond class 100,

I don't think he's that strong if a falling billboard was all it took to defeat him.

I'm still not seeing any way for Snake to land a blow that will be "crushing to Bruce"

Snake's fists do more damage than missiles. Hit-for-hit, factoring in both combatants strength and durability, Snake still has the edge.

Not a very likely scenario. He has been too fast for Deadshot to hit, who has better marksmanship feats than Snake. Not to mention the fact that Bruce is a bullet timer, who can dodge bullets after they have been shot from the gun. It really doesn't matter how good your marksmanship skills are when someone is fast enough to dodge your bullets, after they have been fired.

As we've been over, Deadshot pulls his shots. Most of the time, Batman needs to sneak his way up close, as both of the scans you provided prove.

Batman does not move faster than bullets, nor can he actively perceive them. He can dodge them after they're fired on reflex, but if Snake strategically lets out a volley of perfectly aimed bullets, he can successfully trap Wayne. Solid Snake has shot down an attack chopper in the middle of a snowstorm; that itself is an endurance feat as well as accuracy. He sprints across a water walkway so unstable Emma Emmerich was nearly reduced to crawling just to get across, all the while sniping out Cyphers dozens of feet away with a handgun. Snake also defeated Sniper Wolf, a character who's sniping skill was literally deemed superhuman enough to join an elite soldier unit reserved for superhumans. Snake defeated her on a whim after being ambushed, showing his adaptability and resourcefulness where his opponent is perfectly camouflaged during a complete whiteout.

Snake's marksmanship therefore is literally superhuman. He's already tagged other bullet timers who are much faster than Batman. Vamp, who was Spider-Man-fast (for comparison, human Raiden was perceiving bullets midair and deflecting them with his sword, even against the high speed chain guns of Metal Gear RAY. He had hypersonic reflexes, and was an enhanced human on account of his child soldier experiences. As I've already shown, Vamp was outmaneuvering cyborg enhanced Raiden! More directly, Vamp himself can run across water and vanish from thin air faster than the human eye can see).

There's also Olga Gurlukovich, whom he defeated in a shootout with merely a tranquilizer gun, despite her vast speed and dexterity.

8:10

Olga was also highly agile (not so important in a fist fight, but vital for bullet dodging)

5:50

If Snake can tag them, why can't he tag Batman?

It not like Snake can just run around invisible with OctoCamo turned on. It clearly shows that in order to blend in with his surroundings he has to be still, and very still at that. When the watermelon touches him, the suit takes time to transform, and that means that he wont be "invisible" if he makes any rapid movements.

The OctoCamo works better the closer you are to the ground for obvious reasons, but it's not like Snake suddenly becomes a giant target if he so much as moves. He's a master of stealth; Batman is too, but the simple fact of the matter is, Snake has better technology.

And the suit copied the watermelon near instantly.

It won't be easy. Bruce laughs in the face of Grenades,

Batman isn't tanking a grenade.

can see Snake before he gets to cover,

but how's he going to track Snake once David does make it?

and dodge whatever Snake can throw at him.

Vamp couldn't and he's much faster than Batman.

On the other hand, it would be all too easy for Bruce to put him down using pressure points,

Not easy at all. And Batman would need to catch Snake first; like I said, h2h combat is always Snake's last resort.

or dropping him using Toxins and Non-lethal gasses.

If it's so easy, Snake can just throw a grenade too.

He he can take higher ground within an instant, and move around the battle field much faster than Snake can.

Batman will just be easier to spot if he's not in the shadows.

#14 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Are you saying Batman's villains are smarter than Metal Gear ones? The antagonists in Metal Gear routinely make attempts at complete global domination with practical, real-life obstacles overcome through pure strategic manipulation. Revolver Ocelot earned high ranking statuses in each major Cold War organization, at the same time (triple crossed an entire country). Colonel Volgin raised an army through large scale manipulation, then gained control of the most powerful weapon in the world and planned to overthrow all of Russia, planting his own puppets in power so that he could control everything. Solidus Snake organized the hostile takeover of Big Shell, kidnapping of the president, hijacking of Arsenal Gear and newly developed purified hydrogen bomb, manipulation of an infamous mercenary company and super powered special forces unit, and holding all of America hostage, all while staying underground and below the Patriot's radar, despite the fact that they were actively searching for him. Most of Batman's antagonists are crooks and gangsters. Joker and Ra's are the only Batman rogues who's goals and status can match the main villain of any Metal Gear game.

I never said that they were smarter, I was stating that they literally never try to go hand-to-hand with Bruce, as it would be foolish to do so. However, in your direct comparisons of bruce's villains and Snak'es villains you are using high-end examples for Snake, and low-balling Batman's enemies.

Take Deathstroke, someone you failed to mention, whom Bruce has beaten on one (arguably two) of their encounters. Slade was able to single-handedly take down and specific roster of JLA. Some of the meta-humans he took out could solo (or hold their own against) the entire MG universe.

Ra's Al Ghul used Batman's own contingency plans to take down the JLA (Batman's plans in order to take down a rouge JLA). Bruce has outsmarted and beaten Ra's on numerous occasions.

To top it all off, Prometheus single-handedly took down one of the most powerful JLA lineups of all time, breaking into the watch tower , a building with the most advanced security system in the solar system. In Cry For Justice, he single-handedly took out more than two dozen meta-human hero's without prep. Prior to this he had setup teleportation devices and explosives in every major city in America, so that upon his capture, he would be immediately let go. Bruce has not only beaten Prometheus, he has proved that he is able to outsmart him.

Either way, that is a moot point. Bronze Tiger isn't in the top 5 best DC martial artists, but even if he was, it doesn't matter since Solid Snake is THE best fighter in his world. Snake has the edge in terms of titles and legend, and I also believe he does when it comes to actual martial arts feats.

He is in the top 5, he is right up there with Cassandra Cain in terms of martial skill. Snake may be the best fighter in the MG world, but the skill difference between the two universes is immense. Like you said, top-teir MG fighters are people like Snake and Liquid. Top teir DC fighters are people like Karate Kid (whom Batman has held his own against). Huge difference.

"Skill" is a broad term, people on CV think it's so simple for someone to just be "more skilled" then another, but that is not the case. There are a lot of things that go into skill; Batman knows more actual techniques then Snake, but the soldier has other advantages.The vigilante might be more directly agile than Snake, but that doesn't matter in a fist fight.

It really does, Characters like Dare Devil and Nightwing win fights solely because their agility gives them an advantage.

Reaction time and flexibility matter, which despite being 5 years out of practice and admitting his arctic suit made it hard to move, Snake displays plenty of in this altercation (ducking under the ninja's slash, avoiding the ninja's kick without switching his stance, dodging the debris then quickly recovering and using the momentum to further his next attack, and each of the ninja's attacks were beyond bullet speed).

What are you basing this off of? You cant prove that Cyborg Ninja was attacking him at the speed of a bullet, it is speculation. If you want to speculate feats, i can bring up how Bruce has dodged strikes from the Karate Kid, who has already proved that he can react faster than light.

Besting Ra's al Ghul is good, but Ra's isn't a 100 tonner who can cut bullets midair. Additionally, Gray Fox was the best FOXHOUND agent in the unit's entire history aside from Snake, so by equivalent, he is just as skilled as Ra's too.

What makes you think that Gray Fox was class 100?

This single clip has so many goodies for Vamp! His skill is tremendous!

I agree, Vamp is a badass. Creepy, but a bad ass.

  • Dislocates his own neck to avoid the thrown sword, then instantly pops it back in place

I have already stated how Batman has faced Deathstroke on a few occasions. He has a similar healing factor, he was shot through the head and healed from it in a very short period of time.

  • Unmatched pain tolerance and damage soak

It is actually similar to Bruce's pain tolerance. In Court of Owls, he is starved and dehydrated for 48 hours as he wandered through a maze, the only water source contained an toxin and a hallucinogen drug. He was beaten to a pulp by a Talon while weakened, stabbed in the back, and left for dead as dozens of of the court started to beat him to death. He got up, fought of ever one of the court members, and then beat the tar out of the Talon that had stabbed him (punched him through a wall too). There is a difference however, Bruce did it without a healing factor.

Bruce has endured pain far worse than anything that Vamp went through in that fight.

  • Holds the advantage over Raiden despite the cyborg's immense strength, power, and "mastery of combat"

Raiden is simply outclassed in terms of combat skill. You can visibly see that Raiden is moving faster than Vamp constently through out this whole fight, yet his skill allows him to dance around Raiden.

  • Raiden's sword goes red hot from all the friction against it (that's some speed!)

Fast, but i have explained why i believe that Vamp is able to dodge his strikes. He is obviously very fast, but i still don't believe that he is on Raiden's level in terms of speed.

  • Senses Raiden's approach from behind and deftly leaps over his head, tossing a volley of throwing knives in his wake

A rather predictable attack, but Vamp's superior skill allows him to dodge it rather effortlessly.

  • Basically dances around Raiden and outmaneuvers him at every turn

SKILLLS

Batman rarely if ever faces enemies in direct combat as deadly as Vamp and Gray Fox.

I know i keep on bringing up similar people, but i think that they are being seriously underestimated here. he beat Prometheus in a straight up, hand-to-banton/hand fight. Prometheus has been able to, without prep take down Supergirl using his gear and strategy.

Deathstroke can dodge bullets from over a dozen gunmen at the same time, and blitz more than 10 soldiers before any of them can get a shot off. He single handedly lugged a wire that took 100 men to carry, and can dismember foes with his beare hands. Yet Batman has beaten him.

He fought Karate kid to a stalemate. Who has proven that he can move faster than light, and dodge blitzing kryptonians. He has mastered every single style in the 30th century, and he describes Bruce's fighting ability as "magnificent". He fights him without gravity, in conditions that he isn't used to, and he fought KK to a stalemate.

Batman only beat a few of them, then he was just like "f*ck it" and threw down some sleep gas.

Those were brilliant scans though.

He takes out more than a few, he dominated almost all of them, until the end, when he dropped a smoke bomb in order to single out the one man he needed to talk to. But for reference sake, Bruce has taken on superior teams with no prep and has come out on top. For example.

He took out a Hungarian special forces unit before any of them could pull the trigger on him.

Single handily taking out 4 of the JLA powerhouses. With no prep at all.

Beating his entire rouge gallery at the same time. Take into consideration that Scarecrow, Riddler and the Joker have taken down military siolders on several occasions.

It's getting late, ill finish this tomorrow. Please don't respond until i finish off this post another day.

#15 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Boy you better not be dissin' Cap or it's about to get heavy in here... :P jk

I went there :)

Deathstroke always beats Batman

Actually, in a straight up fight, Deathstroke has only beaten Batman once. Even then, he came away from the fight so badly beaten that "his wounds would take around a day to heal" despite his phenomenal healing factor. Took emphasize how badly he was beaten, it was worht to mention that he lost in a fight to a man who wasn't even peak human just after that.

Besides that, Batman KO'ed Slade in one kick. This was the result of their other fight.

I think Big Boss is stronger than Bane off venom. He is, after all, the strongest human in the world (or at least that which was shown). And Snake beat him. By comparison, most of Bane and Batman's fights end in stalemates (I think Bruce beat him once).

It's actually like, the opposite of that. I'm almost certain that the only time that Bane has beaten Batman, is when he broke his back in the Knightfall arc. That was after fighting off every single Arkham criminal that had escaped from prison, he was at the point where he could harldy move due to exhaustion, and on top of that, he was ill.

Here, he gets the better of Bane until Bane has to resort to making Bruce choose between continuing the fight, and saving the area in which he had panted explosives.

Dominates him the entire fight here.

Azreal is strong, but he lacks in skill.

he is a very skilled martial artist. Not on the level of Bruce Wayne, but he is very talented.

Prometheus has beaten Batman at least a few times.

Prometheus beat Batman once, and the advantages he had in that fight were insane. he was constantly running hypnotizing and disorienting strobe effects that completely tampered with his brain. Prior to the fight, he downloaded the physical prowess of the 30 greatest martial artists in all of the DC universe. On top of ALL that. The fight was off-panel.

Bruce has beaten him, on panel.

Gives him a whopping in hand-to-hand combat. ( Yes, the man who beat Lady freaking Shiva in 3 moves.)

I can't find the other scans of their other fight. Bruce uses a device to replace the prowess of the 30 greatest martial artists with the prowess of Stephen Hawkins. Then he hits him, hits him batman-style.

By comparison, Snake has shown time and time again that he can move too fast for both Fortune and Crying Wolf to hit, both of whom used railguns as their primary weapon. Old Snake even dodged a mach 20+ projectile from Crying Wolf, despite being caught off guard. I think moving too fast for hypersonic attacks is better than bullets (which Snake has done plenty of anyway)

I am very curiously wondering why you would ever think that Crying Wolf's rail gun traveled at speeds that are mach 20 +. Watch the clip again, and you will notice that when the railgun is fired, the sound of the projectile, moves with the projectile. Also, the camera moves with the projectile, at a speed that is definitely not mach 20 +. Not even close. If it really was mach 20 + the sound would be miles behind that actual projectile, not seeming to follow it.

Just the fact that FOXHOUND as a unit was far more elite than any of the random martial artists Bruce learned from.

"FOXHOUND specialized in covert, solo infiltrations, to cope with local revolutions, regional complications, and global terrorist activities in "unauthorized" combat zones too politically-sensitive to intervene through conventional means. Its agents are also trained to complete various missions that are assigned in secret, to the extent that they are considered the modern versions of the ninja. All its members were battlefield hardened veterans, with many coming from a mercenary background. Because of its status as a hi-tech special forces infiltration unit, any and all members of FOXHOUND are heavily trained and rigorously taught a wide field of survival, martial, and operational skills; from a plethora of insertion and maneuvering methods, from skydiving techniques and underwater infiltrations, in order to cover all possible routes of infiltration into an enemy nation; advanced outdoor survival skills, including scenarios regarding long period wilderness survival and a wide range of harsh environments; acute stalking, detonation operations, wireless communication, procuring and reusing enemy weapons, gathering information, varying martial arts, emergency medical operations, languages, and hi-tech devices." -Metal Gear Solid Official Database (by Konami itself)

Under leadership from Big Boss and his assortment of lieutenants, the average MSF soldier can destroy a tank unit singlehandedly. FOXHOUND>MSF. This is the basic FOXHOUND entrance exam.

After all this crap is accomplished, THEN actual training starts.

This is all very cool, i have to admit. But my point still stands, that FOXHOUND training does not grant the trainee the pure fighting skill that Bruce's training has. There is alot of stuff there, but in terms of hand-to-hand combat, I dont see how that smaller portion of military training within a large regime compares to training with someone like Richard Dragon.

There is a lot more that they hav to learn in comparison to just the fighting. However, bruce has learned almost all of those things aswell. He was trained by the best tracker in the world, learn extreme focus to the point where he could melt ice by simply concentrating the heat of his body. His pain tolerance outclasses FOXHOUND trainees, he is far greater in the areas of stealth, deduction and adaptation. Almost everything you listed here is something that Bruce has mastered, to the point that he probably outclasses most of the FOXHOUND trainee's.

Fair enough, though the last statement is false. Big friggin Boss has quite a few number of feats.

True. I can't believe i forgot about him :/ The rest are basically featless, however.

That's because Superman has no idea how to fight. The people I mentioned, despite already incredible combat skill, still have something to learn from Snake.

Actually, he was quite the expert before he had ever trained with Bruce. He had nearly a decade of combat experience, he had mastered two Kryptonian martial arts, and had learned boxing from Wildcat. Yet, he still marvels at Bruce's fighting ability.

Raiden is nothing skill wise in comparison with the Karate Kid. he clearly stated that "i could learn much from you" to Batman, while they fought.

7:05 Raiden heard Snake beating on a guard and caught a glimpse of him sprinting away. Raiden immediately ran after him down the hall, and only managed to catch this. Raiden even complimented the mysterious assailant on his skills.

There is no evidence that he blitzed any of these soldiers. Sure it was fast, but you cannot prove that he blitzed them. He could have taken some out stealthily and then taken on the others, he could have used the silent tranq gun to take out one or two. It is likely that he simply out fought them, like he did to the group of soldiers in MGS4 when he went to see Big Mama, he has done stuff similar to that on more than one occasion. So was it fast? yes. Was it a blitz? you can't prove that it was. Batman's on panel feats of taking out many soldier/police mean before they can shoot is a better example of blitzing.

I'm not underestimating Batman's durability, I'm just saying Snake's is higher. Has Batman ever gotten kicked in the face by a 500 ton robot?

I still think that you are, and if we went feat-for-feat, they would be near equals. No he hasn't gotten kicked by a 500 ton robot. However, he has taken multiple hits from people that are beyond class 100. Characters that are much stronger than anyone in the MG universe.

Snake tanked getting slammed against a wall and strangled by Vamp, a character strong enough to parry hits from Raiden, and despite losing several pints of blood from a cut induced by the Romanian, Snake was up and about again in a few minutes.

Getting slammed into a wall and chocked by Vamp is nothing, in comparison to be being slammed through a wall and chocked by Superman. Sure Vamp can Parry hits from Raiden, but can he bench the weight of the earth for 5 days straight?

I don't think he's that strong if a falling billboard was all it took to defeat him.

The billboard was PIS, anyone who can exchange blows with Power Girl, Super Girl and Wonder Woman is beyond class 100. My point was, that Batman took a beating from somebody that strong, got back up, and kept fighting.

Snake's fists do more damage than missiles. Hit-for-hit, factoring in both combatants strength and durability, Snake still has the edge.

So do Bruce's strikes. Once again with this comparison, Bruce has hit someone hard enough to put them through a reinforced door that could withstand a cruise missile.

I'm still not seeing a huge difference here.

I have to take a break, i'll have my final arguments up tonight, so please dont reign hell down on me until then :) thanks.

#16 Edited by AllStarSuperman (20045 posts) - - Show Bio

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#17 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

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#19 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Batman does not move faster than bullets, nor can he actively perceive them. He can dodge them after they're fired on reflex, but if Snake strategically lets out a volley of perfectly aimed bullets, he can successfully trap Wayne.

You are one of the first people that i have come across that is actually aware of the fact that Batman can dodge a bullet after it is fired from a gun. However, there are a few instances where Batman has shown that he can perceive bullets.

Here he dives to save a man from a train, and then dodges three bullets after they are fired from his gun. Fast, and it could very well be perception, however this isn't concrete.

He dodges a hail of bullets here, after they have been fired, another demo of speed, and being able to dodge a bullet after it has left the gun, but once again, not concrete perception.

Final showing of pure speed, he is caught with his back turned, caught completely off guard, and dodges a sniper round after it is fired. Now... perception.

Here, he dodges a volley of bullets. This can be deemed bullet perception because of how many different moves he makes in order to dodge each individual shot. He may be able to dodge shots off of reflex yes, but a volley of shots, placed in multiple spots, requiring a different postion to dodge each bullet cannot be accomplished simply by reflex alone.

Here, he ducks and dodges shots, coming from two different locations, a common reflex feat. However, he then gets up, disarms one of the men, and as he turns to face the other, shots are fired. He actively perceives the shots, and dodges underneath them showing bullet-time reaction speed. If this looks familiar, it's because this feat is an almost replica to the bullet-timing scene in "The Matrix"

Solid Snake has shot down an attack chopper in the middle of a snowstorm; that itself is an endurance feat as well as accuracy. He sprints across a water walkway so unstable Emma Emmerich was nearly reduced to crawling just to get across, all the while sniping out Cyphers dozens of feet away with a handgun. Snake also defeated Sniper Wolf, a character who's sniping skill was literally deemed superhuman enough to join an elite soldier unit reserved for superhumans. Snake defeated her on a whim after being ambushed, showing his adaptability and resourcefulness where his opponent is perfectly camouflaged during a complete whiteout.

I'm aware of how good Snakes accuracy is, but, Bruce is fast enough to dodge and evade almsot all of his shots.

Snake's marksmanship therefore is literally superhuman. He's already tagged other bullet timers who are much faster than Batman. Vamp, who was Spider-Man-fast (for comparison, human Raiden was perceiving bullets midair and deflecting them with his sword, even against the high speed chain guns of Metal Gear RAY. He had hypersonic reflexes, and was an enhanced human on account of his child soldier experiences. As I've already shown, Vamp was outmaneuvering cyborg enhanced Raiden! More directly, Vamp himself can run across water and vanish from thin air faster than the human eye can see).

Vamp wasn't even paying attention, he was focused on his task at hand, which was getting Naomi out of the area. He was standing stationary in a non-moving helicopter staring out into the distance. If Vamp was paying attention and accurately perceived the shot, it was PIS. When someone is fast enough to accurately perceive bullets and dodge them as effortlessly as Vamp can, you need a well placed, volley of bullets in order to tag him. Snake only took one shot.

Vamp was either not paying attention, or it was PIS [and if you want to bring up PIS feats, i can always mention how Batman made Darkseid bleed with a kick :) ]

The OctoCamo works better the closer you are to the ground for obvious reasons, but it's not like Snake suddenly becomes a giant target if he so much as moves. He's a master of stealth; Batman is too, but the simple fact of the matter is, Snake has better technology.

Well, from what we have seen, we have learned that Octocamo doesn't give the user a full "chameleon" effect. He can't just run through the battle field and be effectively invisible. He needs to be close to cover, touching it. It would take time for Snake to actually run to the cover and pop OctoCamo. They begin visible, so by the time Snake does reach his cover, i don't see how bruce won't already know his location.

Last thing about OctoCamo, Bruce has vision lenes that can detect heat signatures through walls. Snakes facial area isn't covered, so what's stopping Bruce from seeing him?

Batman isn't tanking a grenade.

Wrong! He is! or better yet, he has. His suit has tanked much bigger explosions.

Blows up the room he is in, the suit easily shields him.

Does the same thing, but with an explosion that levels a building.

Two pounds of semtex didn't even rip the suit.

But to be honest, i wasn't even referring to the fact that his suit can tank grenades, and other large explosions. I was referring to the fact that on several occasions he has proven to be too fast to be hit by grenades.

In the second one, it isn't even thrown at him. H also uses his suit, yet again, to shield him self from the blast.

but how's he going to track Snake once David does make it?

He would have probably already found him, as i stated earlier, there are holes in the OctoCamo that can be found using Bruce's gear.

Vamp couldn't and he's much faster than Batman.

Already explained.

Batman will just be easier to spot if he's not in the shadows.

Maybe, but it will be very easy to spot Snake from a birds eye view.

Thank you for waiting patiently, it is hard for me to get this all done on weeknights. Your move sir.

#20 Edited by Saren (25287 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool debate.

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#21 Posted by NeonGameWave (7701 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate is awesome.

#22 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio
#24 Edited by nickzambuto (12922 posts) - - Show Bio

I never said that they were smarter, I was stating that they literally never try to go hand-to-hand with Bruce, as it would be foolish to do so. However, in your direct comparisons of bruce's villains and Snak'es villains you are using high-end examples for Snake, and low-balling Batman's enemies.

My original point was that, if Snake defeats superior foes, logically wouldn't he be the superior combatant with superior feats? I admit it might seem like I was lowballing Batman's rogues, but all I'm trying to say is Batman hasn't done anything Snake can't repeat.

Otacon knows.

He is in the top 5, he is right up there with Cassandra Cain in terms of martial skill. Snake may be the best fighter in the MG world, but the skill difference between the two universes is immense. Like you said, top-teir MG fighters are people like Snake and Liquid. Top teir DC fighters are people like Karate Kid (whom Batman has held his own against). Huge difference.

I completely disagree. What proof is there of that? What has Cassandra Cain done that Frank Jaeger can't? They're both highly proficient move readers and masters of various types of combat. Frank was a child soldier and only surviving member of the "Perfect Soldier" project while still a teenager, which indoctrinated him with perfect fighting mentality, absolute emotionlessness, and daily mind wipes so that the only thing taking up space in his brain was fighting techniques. No memories of anything else to detract from his mastery of combat. I think that sounds PRETTY similar to Cassandra Cain. In fact, Frank singlehandedly wiped out an entire enemy unit armed to the teeth, with nothing but a single knife before he was old enough to go through puberty.

Jetstream Sam came from a long line of legendary samurai, dating all the way back to the 16th century Japan. Sam was trained by the masters for decades across the entire planet, and uses his own custom made, specialized sword style dubbed the "Rodrigues New Shadow School" technique, which was passed down through the generations and enhanced by each subsequent member of Sam's family, himself included. Sam can read his opponent's style, and is skilled enough to challenge a cyborg ninja with nothing but his bare hands. In his youth he was said to of taken down 10 armed mafiosos without any cyborg enhancements, and can deflect chain gun fire with his sword from a very vast distance (this would require him to actually see the bullet's trajectory midair and intercept it; that takes skill!)

Big Boss has not only received extensive training from every major military organization in America, but has gone on to actually invent his own hand to hand combat style, which is infinitely more advanced then Batman simply learning a bunch of random ones. He has destroyed several advanced adaptive AI mechs which learn and counter every combat situation in real time, having been stated to of memorized the Pupa's battle tactics "in seconds". By the end of Peace Walker, Big Boss is literally considered a nuclear deterrent.

Revolver Ocelot at the age of 18 was considered one of the most skilled operatives on the planet, despite being in direct comparison to various supernatural and transcendental combatants. He learned CQC just by watching people do it, and mastered the style to the point of stalemating it's creator. He also has complete control over a bullet's trajectory, having literally mastered gunplay to the point where certain tricks he pulls off in-game are stated by real life gun experts to by physically impossible (his specialized Russian Roulette for one)

I don't see any DC martial artists who grossly outweigh any of these guys. Most martial arts feats in comics are just this guy mastered a bunch of styles (Batman), then this guy beat him (Lady Shiva), then someone else beat him (Cassandra Cain), and now this person becomes unbelievably hyped as unbeatable and sets the bar for all future martial artists in his/her world. Really, if Raiden was put into DC, he would probably be known as the single greatest swordsmen in that universe. So saying that the skill difference between the two universes is big, I believe is simply a false statement.

It really does, Characters like Dare Devil and Nightwing win fights solely because their agility gives them an advantage.

Coincidentally, Daredevil and Nightwing are also incredibly flexible and have far superior reaction time to their fellow peak humans, which is exactly what I was getting at. The literal definition of agility is "the power of moving quickly and easily:". When people on CV say agility, what they're actually referring to is acrobatic skill, which isn't as useful in a fight as nimbleness and dexterity is. Just ask Vamp, Gray Fox and Olga Gurlukovich; they are all much better acrobats then both Snake and Batman, yet Snake still beat them. If acrobatics made such a difference in fights then Batroc would rule Marvel.

What are you basing this off of? You cant prove that Cyborg Ninja was attacking him at the speed of a bullet, it is speculation. If you want to speculate feats, i can bring up how Bruce has dodged strikes from the Karate Kid, who has already proved that he can react faster than light.

I don't think post-crisis KK can react to light, and even if he can, reaction time has no bearing on how fast he can move his arm to punch.

The Cyborg Ninja was attacking him at bullet speed because that's how fast he moves, simple as that.

What makes you think that Gray Fox was class 100?

The fact that he could catch REX's leg with one arm easily and withstand repeated stomps from the 500 ton mech before dying.

Fast, but i have explained why i believe that Vamp is able to dodge his strikes. He is obviously very fast, but i still don't believe that he is on Raiden's level in terms of speed.

That's exactly what I was saying. Old Snake beat Vamp through pure technique, as if Vamp being infinitely more powerful then Snake in every aspect wasn't enough, Vamp is also an extremely skilled fighter himself.

Deathstroke can dodge bullets from over a dozen gunmen at the same time, and blitz more than 10 soldiers before any of them can get a shot off. He single handedly lugged a wire that took 100 men to carry, and can dismember foes with his beare hands. Yet Batman has beaten him.

Deathstroke always beats Batman. Batman beat him once by blindsiding him with a gun.

He fought Karate kid to a stalemate. Who has proven that he can move faster than light, and dodge blitzing kryptonians.

Post Crisis Karate Kid isn't that impressive IIRC. And in each of their two fights, Batman was still clearly getting his ass whooped. In their second fight he was even deadpanning that Karate Kid is more than twice as skilled as him.

He took out a Hungarian special forces unit before any of them could pull the trigger on him.

Special Forces aren't anything Solid Snake would be impressed with, the Gurlukovich mercenaries were about equal caliber to that and Snake found them so pathetic he couldn't even be bothered to fight them, just let Raiden handle it. Compared to Genome Soldiers (stated to be more dangerous in a group then the entire nuclear stockpile on Shadow Moses Island) Tengu Ninja (bullet timers) PMCs (genetically enhanced) and FROGs (advanced power suits), Hungarian Special Forces don't really prove anything.

Single handily taking out 4 of the JLA powerhouses. With no prep at all.

Ehh these scans have been called out as PIS before, I dunno.

Beating his entire rouge gallery at the same time. Take into consideration that Scarecrow, Riddler and the Joker have taken down military siolders on several occasions.

I really don't think Scarecrow, Riddler, and Joker are skilled enough to make that impressive. The textboxes even state that "He's a trained athlete. All they have going for them is psychosis."

Besides that, Batman KO'ed Slade in one kick. This was the result of their other fight.

?

Batman got the drop on Slade, delivered a full power kick by surprise, got in his best combo before Slade could recover, and was STILL beaten. He only survived because Slade was clumsy and figured Bruce was out for the count prematurely.

Here, he gets the better of Bane until Bane has to resort to making Bruce choose between continuing the fight, and saving the area in which he had panted explosives.

They seemed pretty even in that fight if you ask me, Bane didn't want to fight, he just wanted to leave.

Dominates him the entire fight here.

What happened afterwards? Falling down stairs can't be the end of the fight.

I am very curiously wondering why you would ever think that Crying Wolf's rail gun traveled at speeds that are mach 20 +. Watch the clip again, and you will notice that when the railgun is fired, the sound of the projectile, moves with the projectile. Also, the camera moves with the projectile, at a speed that is definitely not mach 20 +. Not even close. If it really was mach 20 + the sound would be miles behind that actual projectile, not seeming to follow it.

The camera following the blast is a weak argument, if we saw that scene as quickly as it actually happened, no player would know wtf just happened. That's basically the same as me saying every comic character fights in slow motion because they can get out entire paragraphs between punches.

1871051-1870991_993757_deathstrokewins_super_super.gif

Slade has an entire rant in the time it took him to let out 4 punches. Pretty much every scan you posted in this thread is the same.

That's a very shallow argument though, isn't it.

Real life rail guns can fire up to mach 20, and Fortune's rail gun was decades ahead of it's time. I doubt the Patriots would purposely outfit their agent with the weakest weapon they could find. Crying Wolf used the same rail gun.

This is all very cool, i have to admit. But my point still stands, that FOXHOUND training does not grant the trainee the pure fighting skill that Bruce's training has. There is alot of stuff there, but in terms of hand-to-hand combat, I dont see how that smaller portion of military training within a large regime compares to training with someone like Richard Dragon.

There is a lot more that they hav to learn in comparison to just the fighting. However, bruce has learned almost all of those things aswell. He was trained by the best tracker in the world, learn extreme focus to the point where he could melt ice by simply concentrating the heat of his body. His pain tolerance outclasses FOXHOUND trainees, he is far greater in the areas of stealth, deduction and adaptation. Almost everything you listed here is something that Bruce has mastered, to the point that he probably outclasses most of the FOXHOUND trainee's.

Well of course, I'm not saying Batman is only equal to the average FOXHOUND operative. But that is NOT the training Snake had, that was the entrance exam for the lowest level agents in the organization. Snake was the highest ranking member in the entire unit, and received PERSONAL lessons from Big Boss, Kazuhira Miller, and Frank Jaeger.

There is no evidence that he blitzed any of these soldiers. Sure it was fast, but you cannot prove that he blitzed them. He could have taken some out stealthily and then taken on the others, he could have used the silent tranq gun to take out one or two. It is likely that he simply out fought them, like he did to the group of soldiers in MGS4 when he went to see Big Mama, he has done stuff similar to that on more than one occasion. So was it fast? yes. Was it a blitz? you can't prove that it was. Batman's on panel feats of taking out many soldier/police mean before they can shoot is a better example of blitzing.

Snake was unarmed, and it took Raiden about 3 seconds to clear that hallway, so obviously Snake didn't use stealth.

in comparison to be being slammed through a wall and chocked by Superman.

Street levelers taking hits from guys like Thor and Superman can't really be quantified because we know they aren't even using a fraction of their power. The fact that he was put through a wall is the most we have to go on, which itself isn't a big deal.

The billboard was PIS, anyone who can exchange blows with Power Girl, Super Girl and Wonder Woman is beyond class 100.

Can I see scans of Clayface fighting Supergirl and Wonder Woman? Because I've never heard that before.

So do Bruce's strikes. Once again with this comparison, Bruce has hit someone hard enough to put them through a reinforced door that could withstand a cruise missile.

The fact that the doctor actually went through the door instead of exploding should tell us that it wasn't as durable as he said. He even states that he was probably wrong.

You are one of the first people that i have come across that is actually aware of the fact that Batman can dodge a bullet after it is fired from a gun.

Yeah, you can't really call yourself peak human if you're not a bullet timer. Just so we're clear, Snake is a bullet timer as well.

Olga seemingly surrenders, but then surprises Snake with a ballistics knife. She even says that no one else has ever dodged that shot.

0:35

3:00 (Not only dodges a tank shell, but manages to clear the blast radius)

Additionally, Snake took on an entire platoon of suicide Gekko at once armed with mounted machine guns and snare wires, and could repel down a large tower by rope whilst getting shot at by a helicopter chain gun, each time avoiding every bullet. (I don't think Batman could dodge machine gun fire from a dozen sources at once like Old Snake did)

And as I've already went into, Snake has also dodged mach speed rail gun blasts from Fortune and Crying Wolf.

15:20

And if that's not enough, Snake was fast enough to beat Revolver Ocelot's quickdraw just from hearing him cock his gun. Revolver Ocelot's quickdraw of course being fast enough to shoot down lightning. So Snake>lightning.

(Hears Ocelot cock his gun and is already out of the way by the time the bullet is fired)

Here, he dodges a volley of bullets. This can be deemed bullet perception because of how many different moves he makes in order to dodge each individual shot. He may be able to dodge shots off of reflex yes, but a volley of shots, placed in multiple spots, requiring a different postion to dodge each bullet cannot be accomplished simply by reflex alone.

That's aim dodging, Batman is just avoiding the gun's path. Most street levelers can do that (Punisher for example) but it doesn't have much to do with reaction time so much as skill ("Captain America is so skilled he can dodge bullets just from seeing which way the gun is pointed!" for example)

Here, he ducks and dodges shots, coming from two different locations, a common reflex feat. However, he then gets up, disarms one of the men, and as he turns to face the other, shots are fired. He actively perceives the shots, and dodges underneath them showing bullet-time reaction speed.

I don't see it, it looks like Batman is just avoiding the bullet's paths again.

I'm aware of how good Snakes accuracy is, but, Bruce is fast enough to dodge and evade almsot all of his shots.

I disagree, especially if Snake uses stealth. But even if he's not, David has already tagged bullet timers much faster then Batman. Snake can sprint across an unstable water bridge so shaky Emma Emmerich had to nearly crawl just to maintain balance, whilst sniping Cyphers from tens of meters away with a handgun, and Old Snake could track a bullet's trajectory midair, then headshot the shooter without looking (MGS4 Novel states Snake as perceiving a bullet in it's path, which Batman cannot do)

Vamp wasn't even paying attention, he was focused on his task at hand, which was getting Naomi out of the area. He was standing stationary in a non-moving helicopter staring out into the distance. If Vamp was paying attention and accurately perceived the shot, it was PIS. When someone is fast enough to accurately perceive bullets and dodge them as effortlessly as Vamp can, you need a well placed, volley of bullets in order to tag him. Snake only took one shot.

I'm actually referring to the boss fight.

Old Snake successfully shoots Vamp in the head, much to Otacon's delight. The Romanian ends up regenerating though, which is why Snake has to use CQC in the end.

Well, from what we have seen, we have learned that Octocamo doesn't give the user a full "chameleon" effect. He can't just run through the battle field and be effectively invisible. He needs to be close to cover, touching it. It would take time for Snake to actually run to the cover and pop OctoCamo. They begin visible, so by the time Snake does reach his cover, i don't see how bruce won't already know his location.

Snake can elude Batman through an alley, or by entering one of the building's in the OP. Hell, the most likely scenario is Batman throwing down a smoke bomb and instigating stealth himself, thus giving Snake the advantage since he can track Batman whereas Bruce's sensors can't track Snake. In-universe, OctoCamo is considered superior to stealth camouflage in every single way (stealth camouflage bends light to literally make the wearer invisible)

Last thing about OctoCamo, Bruce has vision lenes that can detect heat signatures through walls. Snakes facial area isn't covered, so what's stopping Bruce from seeing him?

OctoCamo has a mask Snake can equip.

FaceCamo is even more advanced then the suit, allowing Snake to assume the identity of basically anyone.

@calebhara This will be my final post. I had so much fun doing this, and it is easily one of the best debates I've had thus far. For my final argument, I am going to recap all possible scenarios of this battle, and state why Snake should win more often then not.

Now, there are a variety of ways this battle can go down. Most likely, when faced with a super commando equipped with an entire armory inside his pants, Batman will probably throw down a smoke bomb and quickly grapple to a vantage point. Snake will react in kind, most likely storming into one of the buildings and securing himself. Neither fighter knows where the other is at this moment. However, I have the advantage because Snake's solid eye should pick up Bruce's whereabouts easily, whereas Batman will have no way of tracking Snake through the octocamo. Once Snake has Batman in his line of sight, he'll toss a chaff grenade or two into the open, and effectively disable all of Batman's electronic gear. The detective will be disoriented for a moment, with his cowl vision immediately going to static, which will give Snake the opportunity he needs to pepper the dark knight with a volley of gunshots.

Alternately, each of our guys just say f*ck it and decide to have a fist fight. Again, I believe I have the advantage, simply thanks to the nature of CQC.

The point of CQC as a style, is that it allows quick transition between hand to hand combat, and weapons handling.

6:10 Big Boss briefly explains the concept behind his motivation to create CQC (he goes more in depth with SIGINT during a radio call, but I unfortunately can't find a clip of that)

Basically, the idea is while Batman is unleashing his super kung-fu and ninja flips, Snake's tactics are a lot more direct and simple: get Bruce into a CQC hold, and shoot him in the head at point blank.

#25 Posted by nickzambuto (12922 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: My original point was that, if Snake defeats superior foes, logically wouldn't he be the superior combatant with superior feats? I admit it might seem like I was lowballing Batman's rogues, but all I'm trying to say is Batman hasn't done anything Snake can't repeat.

The same can be said for both. They have both beaten foes that are seemingly superior to each other. I highly doubt that Snake can really do anything that Bruce can't repeat either. (Besides marksmanship feats of course, as Bruce has vowed to go against using guns.)

I completely disagree. What proof is there of that? What has Cassandra Cain done that Frank Jaeger can't? They're both highly proficient move readers and masters of various types of combat. Frank was a child soldier and only surviving member of the "Perfect Soldier" project while still a teenager, which indoctrinated him with perfect fighting mentality, absolute emotionlessness, and daily mind wipes so that the only thing taking up space in his brain was fighting techniques. No memories of anything else to detract from his mastery of combat. I think that sounds PRETTY similar to Cassandra Cain. In fact, Frank singlehandedly wiped out an entire enemy unit armed to the teeth, with nothing but a single knife before he was old enough to go through puberty.

Still, not as impressive as Cassandra Cain. Her training has given her bullet-timing reflexes, and she has dodged bullets, while mid-flight. She was able to take out an entire building of men armed with machine guns and burtal melee weapons with nothing but hand-to-hand combat. The bodies of the men she took out, stacked up to form large piles through out the building.

Jetstream Sam came from a long line of legendary samurai, dating all the way back to the 16th century Japan. Sam was trained by the masters for decades across the entire planet, and uses his own custom made, specialized sword style dubbed the "Rodrigues New Shadow School" technique, which was passed down through the generations and enhanced by each subsequent member of Sam's family, himself included. Sam can read his opponent's style, and is skilled enough to challenge a cyborg ninja with nothing but his bare hands. In his youth he was said to of taken down 10 armed mafiosos without any cyborg enhancements, and can deflect chain gun fire with his sword from a very vast distance (this would require him to actually see the bullet's trajectory midair and intercept it; that takes skill!)

Karate Kid was born in the 30th century, and by the time that he was a teenager, he had mastered not only every single fighting style created on the Earth, but has also mastered most forms of extra-terrestrial fighting styles. he can predict the moves his opponents will make before they ever happen, and point out weak spots & pressure points on every opponent he comes across, including extra-terrestrial beings. His training has taken him to a level of control that allows him to duck lighting bolts, and dodge light speed attacks and heat vision from blitzing Kryptonians. He is much faster than Sam, simply as a result of his training.

Sam has few cyborg enhancements, and is nearly on par with Raiden's strength, Karate Kid has had no enhancements, and can deliver blows that hurt Kryptonians. He once cleared a mega dome of about 80,000 tons of snow by simply punching it.

Big Boss has not only received extensive training from every major military organization in America, but has gone on to actually invent his own hand to hand combat style, which is infinitely more advanced then Batman simply learning a bunch of random ones. He has destroyed several advanced adaptive AI mechs which learn and counter every combat situation in real time, having been stated to of memorized the Pupa's battle tactics "in seconds". By the end of Peace Walker, Big Boss is literally considered a nuclear deterrent.

We have been through this already, Bane has invented his own styles as well. Has he ever proved to be "infinitely more advanced that Bruce"? no, never. In Bane's major plot to take out Bruce, he knew not to engage him in a straight up fight. So he broke every criminal in Arkham free st the same time, waited until Bruce was exhausted from fighting all of them, and sick. Only the was he able to best him.

Revolver Ocelot at the age of 18 was considered one of the most skilled operatives on the planet, despite being in direct comparison to various supernatural and transcendental combatants. He learned CQC just by watching people do it, and mastered the style to the point of stalemating it's creator. He also has complete control over a bullet's trajectory, having literally mastered gunplay to the point where certain tricks he pulls off in-game are stated by real life gun experts to by physically impossible (his specialized Russian Roulette for one)

This is still, nothing we havent seen in DC.

I don't see any DC martial artists who grossly outweigh any of these guys. Most martial arts feats in comics are just this guy mastered a bunch of styles (Batman), then this guy beat him (Lady Shiva), then someone else beat him (Cassandra Cain), and now this person becomes unbelievably hyped as unbeatable and sets the bar for all future martial artists in his/her world. Really, if Raiden was put into DC, he would probably be known as the single greatest swordsmen in that universe. So saying that the skill difference between the two universes is big, I believe is simply a false statement.

I completely disagree with that statement. If Raiden was put into DC, he would be on a level similar to that of the Midnighter, baecause of his enhnsments. But, still no where near Harriet Tanner in terms of swordsmanship.

When people on CV say agility, what they're actually referring to is acrobatic skill, which isn't as useful in a fight as nimbleness and dexterity is. Just ask Vamp, Gray Fox and Olga Gurlukovich; they are all much better acrobats then both Snake and Batman, yet Snake still beat them. If acrobatics made such a difference in fights then Batroc would rule Marvel.

When combatants such as Snake and Batman have similar levels of nimbleness and dexterity, it is acrobatics that can determine a fight. Snake and Batman could very well be equally as fast as each other, but because of Bruce's acrobatic abilities he will be able to hit Snake from angles that Snake can't hit Bruce from.

I don't think post-crisis KK can react to light, and even if he can, reaction time has no bearing on how fast he can move his arm to punch.

When asked how he didn't die from a fatal shock later on, he simply says "I ducked." Something that is normally slower than one punch.

That's exactly what I was saying. Old Snake beat Vamp through pure technique, as if Vamp being infinitely more powerful then Snake in every aspect wasn't enough, Vamp is also an extremely skilled fighter himself.

It was not by puer technique, not at all. It was a result of Vamp not showing bullet timing speed through out that entire boss battle, and Snake openly spraying with fully automatic weapons. If Vamp fought Snake the same way that he had fought Raiden, Old Snake would be a dead man.

Deathstroke always beats Batman. Batman beat him once by blindsiding him with a gun.

Count the number of hits on both sides in my scans. Not counting surprise attacks, Bruce gets 3 hits in, Slade gets two. Bruce has him wincing in pain, and brought him to his knees with punches before he attacked him with the gun.

Post Crisis Karate Kid isn't that impressive IIRC. And in each of their two fights, Batman was still clearly getting his ass whooped.

No, he wasn't. In the fight I showed you, he was taken by surprise, and then had to fight Karate Kid in an anti-gravity setting, something that he has absolutely no experience in. He got in quite a few hits against Val, just as Val did to him, however, the result of the fight was inconclusive.

And not impressive? You are talking about the same guy that could do this.

Or, as mentioned before, this.

Pretty impressive if you ask me.

In their second fight he was even deadpanning that Karate Kid is more than twice as skilled as him.

Thats completely out of context. Bruce stated that Clark had given Val a combat rating of 15, where as he had given Bruce a 12. In that fight, bruce drew blood from Val, twice. Karate Kid himself stated that "he could learn much from bruce" in one of their fights.

I really don't think Scarecrow, Riddler, and Joker are skilled enough to make that impressive. The textboxes even state that "He's a trained athlete. All they have going for them is psychosis."

Feats would suggest other wise. Most of Arkham's inmates are well verse, hand-to-hand combatants who have taken out several police units and special forces units over the years. The Joker himself has single-handedly slaughtered the entire royal flush gang.

Batman got the drop on Slade, delivered a full power kick by surprise, got in his best combo before Slade could recover, and was STILL beaten. He only survived because Slade was clumsy and figured Bruce was out for the count prematurely.

As i stated before, it was fairly even. He KO'ed Slade in a different instance.

Real life rail guns can fire up to mach 20, and Fortune's rail gun was decades ahead of it's time. I doubt the Patriots would purposely outfit their agent with the weakest weapon they could find. Crying Wolf used the same rail gun.

This doesn't change that fact that the sound of the projectile did not match mach 20. In fact, it wasn't even close. If the rail gun did fire mach 20 shots, the projectile would have already hit its target by the time the sound was made. The sound of the projectile, basically followed the shot. It couldn't have been mach 20.

Snake was unarmed, and it took Raiden about 3 seconds to clear that hallway, so obviously Snake didn't use stealth.

This is the problem with off panel feats. We don't know if Snake ran up behind the first guy stealthily, behind the guards. We don't know if he took them all on at the same time. We can't tell.

Street levelers taking hits from guys like Thor and Superman can't really be quantified because we know they aren't even using a fraction of their power. The fact that he was put through a wall is the most we have to go on, which itself isn't a big deal.

A similar argument can be brought up about Snake and Vamp. We don't know how much power he was using while he did this.

As for straight up endurance, Bruce has proven time and time again that he can take hits from meta-humans stronger than most people in the Metal Gear universe. Stronger than most people that Snake has encountered, and much stronger than Snake himself.

Like taking more than one hit from Kid Amazo, who has most of Superman's strength. This is someone who has no reason to hold back against Bruce at all.

Or taking a massive hit from a mind-controlled superman. Who has once again, no reason to hold back (In this particular instance, he was ordered to kill Bruce.)

Or taking hits from Mongul, who was openly trying to kill Bruce.

All of these people are exponentially stronger than Snake, and most of Snakes opponents that he has come across through out the metal gear saga.

Can I see scans of Clayface fighting Supergirl and Wonder Woman? Because I've never heard that before.

It's not clayface, he would get obliterated by Wonder Woman. It's Ultimate Clayface, who was a powerhouse.

(They are out of order) But after UCF, absorbs Wonderwoman during their fight, she breaks out, and he hits her with enough force to knock her down. This happened long before his fight with Bruce, and he still had immense amounts of power.

Olga seemingly surrenders, but then surprises Snake with a ballistics knife. She even says that no one else has ever dodged that shot.

Ballistic knives don't move anywhere near the speed of a bullet.

In the second scan you show me, that isn't bullet timing. That is aim-dodging. Something that Bruce does with absolute ease. He doesn't dodge any of the shots, he simply rolls out of the way.

3:00 (Not only dodges a tank shell, but manages to clear the blast radius)

Impressive, although the shell exploded in front of him, before he made his leap out of the way. This could mean two things. 1. Snake was moving before the shot was fired, or 2. The shot was actually aimed at him, it was aimed at the ground before him.

Additionally, Snake took on an entire platoon of suicide Gekko at once armed with mounted machine guns and snare wires, and could repel down a large tower by rope whilst getting shot at by a helicopter chain gun, each time avoiding every bullet. (I don't think Batman could dodge machine gun fire from a dozen sources at once like Old Snake did)

That scene where Snake holds off waves of suicide Gekko is a strength feat at best. The way that he is able to shoulder fire a Rail Gun is impressive, but this is not a speed feat, not at all. Snake never dodges the bullets, at all. If a Gekko shoots at you, you cant simply dodge the shot on reflex, Snake never does this. A skilled player can move out of the line of fire and behind cover to avoid some of the oncoming fire, but he didn't dodge one bullet in that entire shootout.

And as I've already went into, Snake has also dodged mach speed rail gun blasts from Fortune and Crying Wolf.

Already explained.

And if that's not enough, Snake was fast enough to beat Revolver Ocelot's quickdraw just from hearing him cock his gun. Revolver Ocelot's quickdraw of course being fast enough to shoot down lightning. So Snake>lightning.

That's ABC logic that i don't think applies here. But hey, if you want to do that, i can say this.

  • Karate Kid can dodge lighting bolts, but Bruce got multiple hits on him, so Bruce's speed > Lighting bolts
  • A Daxamite attempted to blitz Karate Kid, but he dodged every single blast of heat vision, so Bruce's standard strikes > Blitzing Daxamites

That's aim dodging, Batman is just avoiding the gun's path. Most street levelers can do that (Punisher for example) but it doesn't have much to do with reaction time so much as skill ("Captain America is so skilled he can dodge bullets just from seeing which way the gun is pointed!" for example)

I would argue strongly against this being aim dodging. There is a visual difference. When a person aim dodges, they are using a simple, fast motions to get out of the way of the barrel of the gun. Such as a combat roll, a dive or a sprint. The second bullet dodging clip of Snake's that you showed me is aim-dodging, he simply rolls out of the way of the shots.

Batman's aim dodging looks like this.

Runs and dives out of the way of the shooters aim.

Dives and slides out of the way of machine gun fire.

Dives and rolls out of the way of machine gun fire from multiple gunmen.

Now, look at Bruce's actually bullet dodging. Actively perceiving the shots.

I see a distinct pattern. While he is trying to evade the aim of the gunmen, he uses simply maneuvers, such as dives, slides, and rolls. When he dodged each individual shot, he has a different position for each individual shot that he is perceiving. He is actually dodging the shots.

If Bruce was aim-dodging, why would he not just dive, slide, roll or run out of the way of the gunman's fire? He has shown the speed to be able to do that over the years. It's because he was actually bullet dodging, not just aim dodging.

I don't see it, it looks like Batman is just avoiding the bullet's paths again.

C'MON MAN, IT LOOKS JUST LIKE THE MATRIX, IT HAS TO BE BULLET TIMING.

All jokes aside though. He clearly aim dodges the two shots in beginning of the scans. And how does he do it? He dives, like usual. So why would he go all neo-in-the-matrix dodging these bullets if he could just aim dodge them? He couldn't they were already shot. He actively perceived them and dodged the bullet.

Even if he can't dodge Snake's shots, his suit is completely bulletproof.

Multiple gunshots and tranquilizer darts didn't even come close to phasing the Dark Knight.

Multiple gunshots, Gas, and multiple grenades didn't even put a slight pause in the beatdown he gave Vigilante.

So even if Snake can tag him (i still don't believe he can) he is completely bullet-proof.

I disagree, especially if Snake uses stealth. But even if he's not, David has already tagged bullet timers much faster then Batman. Snake can sprint across an unstable water bridge so shaky Emma Emmerich had to nearly crawl just to maintain balance, whilst sniping Cyphers from tens of meters away with a handgun, and Old Snake could track a bullet's trajectory midair, then headshot the shooter without looking (MGS4 Novel states Snake as perceiving a bullet in it's path, which Batman cannot do)

If you are talking about how Snake sits in the middle of the battlefield and repeatedly shoots Vamp as he run forward at you, hardly even trying to avoid the shots, he isn't tagging Vamp whilst he is using bullet timing reflexes. He doesn't show signifigant speed through out that entire fight. Honestly, at the speed that Vamp was running at Snake, i wouldn't be suprised if Bruce could hit him with multiple batarangs.

OctoCamo has a mask Snake can equip.

Fair enough, i wasn't aware of the fact that you were using the mask.

Since this is also my closing post, i will sum up everything i have said thus far.

Bruce is a much more talented fighter, he has immensely skilled in most forms of hand-to-hand combat where as Snake is limited to Military training. He has been able to hold his own, and beat opponents that are far more skilled than Snake in terms of fighting ability, strength, and speed. He can eliminate entire squadrons of soldiers, Snake is only one.

He can dodge, parry and block every single one of Snake's attacks. Bruce will gets hit hits in, and lots of them. All i takes is one pressure point/ nerve strike and it's a completely unbalanced fight.

Pressure points capable of putting down meta-humans as powerful as Solomon Grundy.

HIs physicals are practically equal to that of Snake, perhaps even greater. They can both dodge bullets, a produce strikes as powerful as missiles. Both have immense pain tolerance, and durability. They are near equals in terms of physical abilites. but once again, Bruce's skill and combat superiority will give him more opportunities to get after Snake.

Powerful enough to K.O. Meta humans like Deathstroke (who's durability is superior to Snake's) In one kick.

His gear is a direct counter to Sanke's stealth, he can no sell every weapon in his arsenal. Grenades will do nothing, Guns will do nothing, Knives won't even puncture his suit. Every weapon in Snake's arsenal is rendered rather useless because of Bruce's skill and armour.

Finally, he has gear that can do damage to Snake, lots of it.

He can reverse the charge from Snake's main close quarters weapon, his combat knife. Now not only will it not puncture Bruce's armour, but the lethal shock goes straight back into Snake.

Batarangs that are powerful enough to drop Doomsday Clones.

He has batarangs that can put Snake down in a few hits, large explosives, powerful tasers, grappling guns, heat weapons, liquid nitrogen pellets. The list goes on and on. He is armed to the freaking teeth.

He is the Goddam Batman.

And that concludes my arguments.

#27 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto I want to thank you personally for making this such a great debate. This was my first ever CaV match, thanks for making it a good one. I had fun.

Voting is open i guess?

#28 Posted by nickzambuto (12922 posts) - - Show Bio

(Just a few final notes about things I think are wrong)

Still, not as impressive as Cassandra Cain. Her training has given her bullet-timing reflexes, and she has dodged bullets, while mid-flight. She was able to take out an entire building of men armed with machine guns and burtal melee weapons with nothing but hand-to-hand combat. The bodies of the men she took out, stacked up to form large piles through out the building.

Alright, are you saying that is something Frank hasn't done? Better yet, are you saying that dodging bullets and maiming several dozen armed enemies at a time isn't what Gray Fox is KNOWN FOR? He was dodging bullets while still a kid before receiving any training. Later on in his teens, he was capable of deflecting bullets, and in his battle against REX he deflected from a high powered chain gun while midair. During his time as Null, he went on an emotional rampage and slaughtered countless of his own allies just to reach Big Boss, despite suffering from severe wounds inflicted by Gene just previously. I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between Frank Jaeger and Cassandra Cain, other then the fact that the Cyborg Ninja is much faster and stronger compared to her.

Karate Kid was born in the 30th century, and by the time that he was a teenager, he had mastered not only every single fighting style created on the Earth, but has also mastered most forms of extra-terrestrial fighting styles. he can predict the moves his opponents will make before they ever happen, and point out weak spots & pressure points on every opponent he comes across, including extra-terrestrial beings. His training has taken him to a level of control that allows him to duck lighting bolts, and dodge light speed attacks and heat vision from blitzing Kryptonians. He is much faster than Sam, simply as a result of his training.

Sam has few cyborg enhancements, and is nearly on par with Raiden's strength, Karate Kid has had no enhancements, and can deliver blows that hurt Kryptonians. He once cleared a mega dome of about 80,000 tons of snow by simply punching it.

I think Karate Kid is a pretty high end feat, he is hardly a recurring Batman foe, nor one who Bruce has even come close to defeating. (Snake hasn't beaten Sam either but I was just using him as an example because you said the Metal Gear universe is unskilled)

Superman had Karate Kid ranked at 15 and Bruce 12. After they're fight, Batman comments Karate Kid is "more like class 25". That's what I meant when I said Batman admitted Kal is more then twice his superior. (On the same note, this fight ended with Batman a bloody mess with a paralyzed leg)

We have been through this already, Bane has invented his own styles as well. Has he ever proved to be "infinitely more advanced that Bruce"? no, never. In Bane's major plot to take out Bruce, he knew not to engage him in a straight up fight. So he broke every criminal in Arkham free st the same time, waited until Bruce was exhausted from fighting all of them, and sick. Only the was he able to best him.

But Bane is nearly Batman's equal; that is because despite not having any training or guidance, his innate understanding of fighting has allowed him to figure these things out for himself. So compared to Big Boss, who received training from every major military organization in the United States and was the personal disciple of the woman who won World War II, AND created his own style after mastering at least several others, by power scaling Big Boss is definitely around Batman's level. Meanwhile Solid Snake was the clone of Big Boss and later surpassed him.

This is still, nothing we havent seen in DC.

I think that is just blatantly disregarding Revolver Ocelot's accomplishments.

It was not by puer technique, not at all. It was a result of Vamp not showing bullet timing speed through out that entire boss battle, and Snake openly spraying with fully automatic weapons. If Vamp fought Snake the same way that he had fought Raiden, Old Snake would be a dead man.

The boss fight was in gameplay so obviously Vamp isn't going to move at his normal speeds. If you wanna use game mechanics then Batman isn't going to do squat to Snake's bullet proof skin. Just because there was no cutscene doesn't mean it's non canon.

And weapons don't help against someone with a healing factor like Vamp, which Snake found out early in the fight, which is the reason he ended up using CQC in the first place.

This doesn't change that fact that the sound of the projectile did not match mach 20. In fact, it wasn't even close. If the rail gun did fire mach 20 shots, the projectile would have already hit its target by the time the sound was made. The sound of the projectile, basically followed the shot. It couldn't have been mach 20.

I think you're being a bit too literal with the way the cutscene was presented.

(They are out of order) But after UCF, absorbs Wonderwoman during their fight, she breaks out, and he hits her with enough force to knock her down. This happened long before his fight with Bruce, and he still had immense amounts of power.

That's not trading hits with Wonder Woman at all. That's BFRing her by surprise. No matter how powerful she is, she only weighs like, 130 pounds. She probably wasn't hurt at all, just couldn't stop herself from the momentum of the hit.

Ballistic knives don't move anywhere near the speed of a bullet.

What gives you that idea? It was fired the exact same way as a pistol, gunpowder and everything. The knife hilt is the same as the gun barrel, it just lacks the handle of a gun, which doesn't make a difference.

In the second scan you show me, that isn't bullet timing. That is aim-dodging. Something that Bruce does with absolute ease. He doesn't dodge any of the shots, he simply rolls out of the way.

He had no warning that he was about to be shot. Meryl turned around and surprised him. He moved after the trigger was pulled.

That scene where Snake holds off waves of suicide Gekko is a strength feat at best. The way that he is able to shoulder fire a Rail Gun is impressive, but this is not a speed feat, not at all. Snake never dodges the bullets, at all. If a Gekko shoots at you, you cant simply dodge the shot on reflex, Snake never does this. A skilled player can move out of the line of fire and behind cover to avoid some of the oncoming fire, but he didn't dodge one bullet in that entire shootout.

I hate when people use game mechanics when it serves they're own argument, yet immediately disregard them when a character does so much as throw a punch outside of cutscenes.

If you are talking about how Snake sits in the middle of the battlefield and repeatedly shoots Vamp as he run forward at you, hardly even trying to avoid the shots, he isn't tagging Vamp whilst he is using bullet timing reflexes. He doesn't show signifigant speed through out that entire fight. Honestly, at the speed that Vamp was running at Snake, i wouldn't be suprised if Bruce could hit him with multiple batarangs.

I hate when people use game mechanics when it serves they're own argument, yet immediately disregard them when a character does so much as throw a punch outside of cutscenes.

#29 Edited by nickzambuto (12922 posts) - - Show Bio
#30 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: has my vote.

also we did a Snake vs Batman before. Old Snake vs Old Batman I won it too :)

#31 Posted by nickzambuto (12922 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: has my vote.

also we did a Snake vs Batman before. Old Snake vs Old Batman I won it too :)

Ehh, that was a very bad, unmotivated debate on my part. I firmly believe that, in this thread, I debated for Snake as well as I possibly could, and that's what makes me happy. Even if I lose, I'll be satisfied with finally getting my word out there (not saying winning wouldn't be the most awesome thing ever. Thanks for the vote ;D)

#32 Edited by NeonGameWave (7701 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate was really good and it was very close. Both of you did a phenomenal as well as spectacular job in the defending of your character, Its hard to choose, I see it mostly as a stalemate but if I have to choose then I would go with @nickzambuto.

#33 Posted by Fetts (4412 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy crap this is long. I'll have to cast my vote later. Looking good though!

#34 Posted by Saren (25287 posts) - - Show Bio

CalebHara. Handily, in my opinion, though as is usually the case with CaV battles I retain reservations about both sides using out of context showings and what not, but that's not relevant here.

Moderator
#35 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

2-1 to Nick so far, but we need more voters!

Anyone else?

#36 Edited by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

CalebHara showed way more and better capabilities of this character.

I side with him.

#37 Posted by jashro44 (19640 posts) - - Show Bio

I will come back to this.

#38 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

2-2, we need more voters.

#40 Posted by nickzambuto (12922 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts said:

Holy crap this is long. I'll have to cast my vote later. Looking good though!

@jashro44 said:

I will come back to this.

It's a good one, don't forget about it!

#41 Posted by ImmortalOne (3295 posts) - - Show Bio

Both debates were great, although my vote goes to @calebhara. I feel like he showed better feats on Batman's parts.

Online
#42 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

This is getting repetitive now, but we need more voters!

3-2.

#43 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

Really nice debate, but overall @calebhara had more versatility and overall better feats, moreover y'know the Dark Knight thing.

#44 Posted by jashro44 (19640 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really have the time to read it all right now but I'm just saying I haven't forgot about this yet. I will try and read it later this week.

#45 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio
#46 Posted by dondave (34442 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#47 Edited by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara gets the vote.

Also, ZAMBUTO YOU NEED TO REPLY TO OUR DEBATE DAMN IT.

#48 Edited by Sovereign91001 (3990 posts) - - Show Bio
#49 Edited by Sovereign91001 (3990 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to give the win to @calebhara

@nickzambuto you did a great job but I felt calebhara's rebuttals were a bit stronger and that's what tipped the scales for me.

Great job both of you.

#50 Posted by nickzambuto (12922 posts) - - Show Bio