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#1 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

Here we go, CaV time=)

In this corner, we have Aphrodite IX (Wyldsong):

And the challenger, Jean Paul Valley as Azrael (HigorM):

Conditions

  • In character
  • Random encounter
  • No knowledge of opponent
  • Standard equipment for Azrael
  • Aphrodite IX gets dual pistols as seen in v1, the rifle used in current Cyberforce and her Blade Kata from v2 (since she has a revolving door on equipment) and no drake for this fight
  • Aphrodite IX will be using feats from all prior Aphrodite models, and her synaptic connections are healed up
  • Standard elimination rules

Location

  • Both combatants start within 300 feet of each other
  • The location is unpopulated
  • Fight is at night
  • Neutral location unknown to both

#2 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright @higorm, here it is. Feel free to take the first shot, and I will get to it shortly=)

Let me know if anything needs to be changed.

#3 Posted by Wolverine08 (40732 posts) - - Show Bio

LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

#4 Edited by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: I was aiming for Jean Paul Valley Azrael, that one is Michael Lane. The scenario looks fine. That was a pretty damm kickass image though :P

#5 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@wyldsong: I was aiming for Jean Paul Valley Azrael, that one is Michael Lane. The scenario looks fine. That was a pretty damm kickass image though :P

No problem, want me to change the image? I had no clue we had two=P

#6 Edited by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@higorm said:

@wyldsong: I was aiming for Jean Paul Valley Azrael, that one is Michael Lane. The scenario looks fine. That was a pretty damm kickass image though :P

No problem, want me to change the image? I had no clue we had two=P

Yes there is two of them. I found some nice scans, check this out:

Last one looks dope.

#7 Posted by dondave (36007 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#8 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: There you go brother man. I'll be back in a bit to do my part, but you are free to fire away!

#9 Posted by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by Strider92 (16240 posts) - - Show Bio

Yay somone other than me is using Top Cow in CaV's @wyldsong you get a Strider point!!! spend it wisely! I'll be keeping an eye on this battle!

#11 Posted by IcePrince_X (4865 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting battle...do Aphrodite IX gets the Coin of Solomon Artifact? It was just recently found out that she has it on her forehead that makes her unique with the other Aphrodite models.

#12 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@iceprince_x: It is a built in part of the character, and if half the things I hear are true about Azrael (I took a peak at a thread and to be honest, I am a little nervous about this CaV now, though I still don't know Azrael's full capabilities), I might need it, though it is fairly ill defined, so I can only stick with known showings (which those can be replicated by various weapons and tech) and not the theoretical aspects, which there isn't even much on that=P

@strider92: I just dug through every appearance Aphrodite has had, and grabbed a ton of feats. Hopefully there is enough to use against Azrael in this fight. I am planning on giving Aphrodite the treatment I did for the Witchblade in the respect thread when done with this, but kind of do it as an overall for the Aphrodite models. Next two projects will be the Magdalena and the Angelus, and the Darkness after my CaV involving him starts (already have all of the feats gathered for that one). Top Cow doesn't get enough respect, so we will see if we can correct that=)

Though I may lose this CaV horribly...we'll see. I'll try and spend that point wisely though!

Anyhow, I'll be back to start my part in this either later tonight or tomorrow. @higorm has the floor whenever he is ready=)

#13 Posted by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: from what I've seen from you, it's highly unlikely for you to lose horribly, this should be fairly well played by both parts.

Also, I say you changed Aphrodite's image, nice and naughty! :P

#14 Posted by Wolverine08 (40732 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be awesome. Have at it guys. I must say though, Aphrodite is certainly...... provocative. She's already earning points from me indeed :)

#15 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Lol...she is my third favorite comic gal (Sara Pezzini comes first and Aspen Matthews second).

@higorm: I saw the picture and couldn't help myself=)

Nah, the only thing I am worried about are a few things that will be kind of, shall we say, difficult to prove in relation to a more established character. I have a plan of attack though, and we'll see how it pans out...

#16 Posted by Wolverine08 (40732 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: She's quickly becoming one of my favorites as well! :D

#17 Edited by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Certainly!

@wyldsong: are you ready?

"My name is Azrael, and I am probably the closest thing you’ll ever see to an avenging angel. At least in this life."

Azrael

[ Origin ]

Jean Paul Valley was a university graduate student of computer science in Gotham City, living unaware that he is the latest in a line of a legacy-type agent for the Order of Saint Dumas. For most of his life, he has been brainwashed with The System, a deep level of psychological conditioning. Valley only learns of this upon the death of his father, who was also his predecessor, at which time his conditioning is activated and he is called upon to take up the mantle of Azrael. So Jean Paul Valley was trained to become Azrael, the executor of a secret society, coached to believe he is the Biblical angel of vengeance as was his father before him.

[ Physical Stats ]

JPV is a test tube baby, whose genes were combined with animal ones, to ensure better skills. Moreover, his extraordinary abilities come from severe amounts of subconscious training and conditioning he was put through during his youth. So as a result of genetic engineering, he has greater physical stats than a normal peak level human.

Strength

Jean-Paul has enhanced physical strength, superior to that of a peak human as Batman, and comparable to Deathstroke. Jean-Paul has been seen training with a one-handed 600 pound bench press; additionally, he is known to hurl large stones, steel altars, and other heavy objects estimated to weigh one or two tons. Right at the end of his solo series, his strength, speed and reflexes went into meta human levels and he no longer needed his costume to access "The System." At this time, he is able to lift tree trunks and large boulders weighing an estimated 7-8 tons.

Durability

Using his suit, Azrael alrady manage to take and survive to bullets and explosions. Also survived 100 foot falls from cliffs into the water. Most of his adversaries in his series were regularly people packing super human strength, so he is a character who is used to take great amounts of punishment.

[ Skills ]

Speed, reflexes, dexterity, agility.

The skills granted to him by "The System" are considerable, giving him access to acrobatic and martial arts skill rare for the most seasoned athlete. This makes him a highly skilled combatant. In addition to these talents, his skills were honed by training with Bruce Wayne and thus possibly as skilled as Batman, although his lack of experience and finesse would make him technically the weaker of the two.

[ Gear / Equipment ]

Flaming sword, retractable flame daggers and armor.

Azrael owned a flaming sword, but his usual weapon of choice are the retractable flaming Bundi Daggers, which are housed in the forearms of his gauntlets. Independantly fueled and made from high tech alloys of the Orders invention, they are sharp and immune to ordinary wear.

The costume Azrael wears was designed by Nomoz after his failed first tussel with Batman. Incorporating the advanced Order technology that created the silent hovercraft, the universal solvent, and the Azraels themselves, Nomoz crafted a fireproof and bulletproof fabric that resembles a weave of Kevlar and Nomex materials.

.

[ Fighting Skill ]

As stated before, Azrael is a very capable fighter. His extensive training over the Order of Saint Dumas and Batman, along with his superior stats and gear makes him a very dangerous enemy. With this he was able to defeat the likes of Bane and Batman, and take on Deathstroke. The next scans proves it:

vs deathstroke

vs batman

vs bane

I believe JPV possess what it takes in physicals, skill and gear to not only stand up for his enemy but actually win this fight, considering everything I've just pointed above.

So in resume:

#18 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Good opener bro, let's see if I can can match you with a little something here=)

Aphrodite IX

The Origin Stuff:

The Aphrodite Protocol was created in 1971, and first initiated around 1980 with the creation of Aphrodite androids. They started out as fully synthetic, but around 2011 they created the first bio-synthetic model in Aphrodite V. In 2078 they finally had the first live natural birth of a techno-biological singularity with tri-helix DNA and three additional artificial chromosome pairs, Aphrodite IX. Aphrodite IX is known as the "Tracker Killer" model, and is a 225% improvement over the generation VII models (which puts her far above models VI and V). Our protagonist here is exceedingly unique in that she is regaining a sense of self above and beyond her programming, and for unknown reasons also has an artifact known as the Coin of Solomon implanted in her brain.

The Physicals:

Aphrodite is a marvel of genetic engineering and cybernetics. She was built to be above a peak human in all respects (strength, speed, durability, etc), with a neural processing speed faster than any human, and has the ability to temporarily enhance these stats through an "adreno-glycaline surge", and with these increased stats comes increased neural processing speed as well. The downside to this is that doing such for too long, or going for huge increases in stats can exhaust her power levels, meaning she would need to rest to be able to "recharge". Most of the below feats (except maybe some of the strength feats) are possible for the baseline Aphrodite IX.

Strength:

Azrael honestly has Aphrodite beat here, but she is no slouch in that department herself. We can clock her average deadlift at 275.5 pounds (1510 pounds with moderate surge), bench press at 242.5 pounds (1323 pounds with moderate surge), striking pressure at about 1522 pounds per square inch (3626 pounds per square inch with moderate surge) and can probably increase her strength to roughly the 2-5 ton range depending on if she goes for more heavy surge usage.

She has lifted heavy machinery and punched through concrete floors and thrown full grown men around like ragdolls:

She has also ripped the cockpits off of flying ships and put the beatdown on robots bare handed:

Not to mention that Aphrodite models aren't unfamiliar with tangling with and dealing with far stronger foes. Aphrodite IV has a history with the Witchblade. I won't hazard to guess just how strong that little puppy is, but it has allowed Sara to drop giant monsters and one shot a speeding semi-truck, and Aphrodite proved strong and skilled enough to tangle with her:

Being able to increase her strength levels and even striking power allows her to hurt armored foes with her bare hands (though realize her hands are reinforced with tensile strength metal fibers and she has an increased torquing ability with her muscles, so her hits tend to hurt a bit more). Sara in her Witchblade armor can tank everything these two can tank damage wise (maybe even more), so that should show how effective her hits can be. I should also mention that IX has taken out quite a few armored foes with her punches.

Durability:

Aphrodite IX can tank some damage like a champ. She can handle multi-story falls (sounds familiar, I know):

She has the explosion angle covered as well as gunfire:

So, as we can see, she is pretty darn durable.

Agility, Speed and Reaction:

Aphrodite IX is pretty darn speedy when it comes down to it. On average, she can take the 100 meter in about 11 seconds with a sprint and not even be winded or breathing heavily. With moderate surge usage she can do it in about 7 seconds and can go even faster than that if she goes for a heavier surge usage. She once cleared 13 meters in 1.2 seconds and killed a foe before they could fully realize what was even going on, all the while dodging gunfire. Now, let's take a look at various other feats of speed, reaction, and acrobatics.

My girl here is definitely agile, and acrobatic:

She also took down three members of Cyberforce in no time flat, and of course as you will see, was able to react to the speedster, Velocity (surely nobody though DS was alone in the speedster tagging department?):

Not to mention the obligatory bullet timing and dodging:

Fighting Skill:

To start with, Aphrodite IX has never really trained. All Aphrodite models are "trained" aka programmed in nearly every worldly combat technique to be the most efficient killing machines they can be:

Unfortunately, I don't have any Batman or DS to bring to the table. We all know them, and it is hard to compete with them. That is not to say that I won't try. Let me start out by stating that Aphrodite models have competed with Sara Pezzini, wielder of the Witchblade. The Witchblade chooses only the best, and with some of Sara's showing of skill, we can see that she is most definitely one of the top combatants in the Top Cow U, with plenty of showings to back it up.

Sara was able to beat Celestine, who was like a borderline, non-jobber Taskmaster with her ability and was a combat prodigy. She was so good that the Witchblade nearly left Sara in favor of her, until Sara turned it around and proved who was top dog. Sara has also gone toe to toe with Ian Nottingham, who is pretty much superhuman and regularly catches bullets with his hands and has nearly cut a car in half with a katana. Ian is probably the number one martial artist in the Top Cow U, and a good debate could be made for him against the likes of even Batman and DS. Even without the Witchblade, Sara has given Ian a good fight.

In Aphrodite IV's first encounter with Sara, she was able to match Sara on a test run (for data collection and before some upgrades), and fights pretty evenly with Sara in other encounters:

Of course, in later encounters as seen above in the strength section, she was able to beat Sara outright (though later on Sara does put her down). Not to mention, she once took out Jackie Estacado, who is quite impressive himself (he gave a good fight to Tora No Shi, who can go toe to toe with Ian, and he did it without the Darkness), and is bona-fide bullet timer/dodger himself. Jackie was not fully Darkness empowered this fight, but still had killer durability and regen:

She has also shown proficiency in numerous weapons, and is also exceedingly skilled with her Blade Kata (these weapons are capable of slicing up armored robots):

And here are some various other showings of skill:

Alright, there are some other points that I will eventually bring to the table, but at the moment, I have to get to bed for a long morning. I'll wait to touch on some other stuff I have for Aphrodite, since my time is running short, but yes, there is more=)

In closing for now, she is an exceedingly dangerous and skilled combatant. While Azrael takes it in the strength department, I think Aphrodite IX can take him in the speed department, and the durability department is pretty darn close here. If an Aphrodite model can hurt Sara through the Witchblade armor, then I feel that IX can accomplish the same here with Azrael. Not to mention if he get's cut with her Blade Kata, it could hurt, seeing as how she can slice and dice armored robots with them...

She has the speed and skill to compete with and possibly beat Jean Paul here.

Aphrodite says: "Bring it on Jean Paul!"

That finger was not meant for you @higorm, just to be clear=)

Your move my friend.

#19 Edited by Sovereign91001 (4182 posts) - - Show Bio
#20 Posted by Strider92 (16240 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: If it helps you can take scans form the stuff I have in my images. I uploaded a ton of scans for my CaV with TheAcidSkull. Might save you some time :)

#21 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 said:

@wyldsong: If it helps you can take scans form the stuff I have in my images. I uploaded a ton of scans for my CaV with TheAcidSkull. Might save you some time :)

Nah, I think I am good brother man, as I am swimming in scans. There are some things I have yet to touch upon in this thread, but I just got tired and ran out of time last night. I am going to give HigorM a chance to respond before I get into the other stuff, as I think that first post is full enough. I also cleaned up the initial post a bit, and added some intel from a resource I found for Aphrodite, so it allowed me to lay out some baseline parameters better, and show how much she can improve her stats through the surge. Hopefully the post reads a bit better now, but I am about to take one more look at it to be sure.

#23 Posted by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: I've made an edition myself to add Azrael fight with Bane ok?

Now continuing..

I believe we can establish that Azrael possess the superior stats¹ in comparison to Aphrodite, as well as combat skill. Being able to defeat someone like Batman proves he is more than capable to best his current opposing in a close combat, considering the martal skill of both this scenario. I'm not saying Azrael automatically wins because of that, but I can say he possess a clear advantage that can't be ignored. The combination of superior stats (mostly strength) with superior fighting skill gives him a good edge in this fight.

*observation 1 - When I say superior stats I mean overall, and mostly strength, since both characters should be on pair with each other in terms of speed and agility. That's why strength and martial skill is important to function as a tiebreaker.

I saw you posted durability feats for her, but none of those feats would be much useful here considering Azrael doesn't use firearms as a weapon of choice. He is using melee weapons such as his flame sword and daggers. Yet, keep in mind that when talking about him, there's nothing preventing him from using the scenario against his enemies, since that's the way he fights, using the means necessary to accomplish his goal, so basically that means he can provide range to attack Aphrodite if necessary.

scan:

So my point is, how Aphrodite would deal with slashing damage? She doesn't have any armor to protect her body like Azrael possess, that's another advantage he possess over her, in terms of overall durability . I know she possess a healing factor but have she ever faced someone like him who can inflict said damage upon her body, a fatal injury, had she ever healed from something like this before?

What I'm trying to state is that Azrael have means to damage Aphrodite, but the opposite isn't quite clear. They will end up facing each other in a close combat situation where my character clearly have the upperhand. He is not only stronger but also more durable, being able to resist her strikes and inflict more damage on the other hand. Since he proved to be good enough to hang out and stalemate the likes of Deathstroke before, I can say he can do the same against her, since she isn't as skilled as Slade.

#24 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

I've made an edition myself to add Azrael fight with Bane ok?

Oh you...well, really, I can't say much of anything, because I edited the ever living heck out of my first post=)

So my point is, how Aphrodite would deal with slashing damage?

Let me repost one thing that may have been inadvertently looked over on the piercing/slashing damage angle:

She won that fight, and I feel fairly confident in saying that the Witchblade can put out much more damage than Azrael (even Aphrodite to be honest since we have seen the Witchblade one shot naval destroyers in one story with its energy output and pierce an invulnerable foes armor). The Aphrodite models are exceedingly durable. That is not to say that they can't be put down, but it takes a lot of damage to do so. Azrael may feasibly have the strength and damage output to eventually do it, but it won't be easy by any stretch of the imagination. Now of course that is the IV series model, but remember, IX is a 225% improvement over the VII models, and while I cannot really truly prove it, she should be more durable than IV, but I won't make any claims, since again, I can't truly prove it because she just doesn't really get damaged in the current series, but...this does lead me to some other points.

What I'm trying to state is that Azrael have means to damage Aphrodite, but the opposite isn't quite clear.

First, let's add some context to her being able to increase her strength to harm her foes. I have shown the scans of her taking out armored robots with her bare hands, which should speak volumes on her ability to increase her strength and her striking power. IV being able to take out a fully armored Sara is a big deal. Sara is exceedingly durable. Bullet proof, explosion proof, multi-story fall proof:

To be able to pull off such a focused strike (much like the ancient shotokan practitioners who reportedly were able to harm foes in armor with their fists) says a lot here for her skill and the ability to increase the all important striking power. Also remember that her blade kata is capable of slicing up armored robots, I think they might have a fair shot of damaging the armor, and to add to that, I have seen scans where the face mask at least is torn.

Since he proved to be good enough to hang out and stalemate the likes of Deathstroke before, I can say he can do the same against her, since she isn't as skilled as Slade.

So, let's get into the next set of points to try and close the skill gap angle. These are the scans and abilities that I just got too tired to get into the other night, but they fit nicely into my rebuttal post, and work exceedingly well into the idea of closing the skill gap issue=)

The CDI Model V.9:

Since the skill gap is still in question here and quite difficult to prove, allow me to now try and close this gap. While I feel her showings against Sara speak for themselves, I realize that I would have to turn this whole thread into one huge scan fest to prove the abilities of Sara, Ian, Jackie, Tora No Shi, the members of Cyberforce and so on. It'll be easier for everyone reading the thread if I attack the issue from another angle, and maybe come back to the actual skill point at a later time (depending on how long we decide to keep this bad boy running).

Aphrodite IX comes equipped with a little computer (the CDI Model V.9) that can lay out the best strategies for combat, as well as monitor her health, power usage and more. Bear in mind, the Aphrodite that kept up with Sara, Cyberforce, etc, did not even have this little bad boy. And note that in many of the previous scans I have shown with her hand to hand and blade kata skills, she also did not have use of this little piece of tech. This little computer ups the ante a bit, and adds to what she can accomplish and do in combat, and it is all integrated and fully functioning with her skills and so on:

Also note that in some of those scans, she was able to increase her striking power to one shot armored foes. This computer let's her pilot vehicles she hasn't piloted before, learn and speak an unknown language, monitors the environment so her body can adjust itself and so on. And these systems include enhanced long range sensors, so sneaking up on her will prove a difficult task at best. Not to mention it constantly scans for weak points and can give her detailed information on a foe and the best way to kill them:

Having seen the scan where Jean Paul's mask was torn, leads me to believe that while exceedingly durable, there are weak points that can be found in his armor and exploited. Jean Paul himself may be durable, but if he wears durable armor, that tells me he isn't invulnerable. The best feat I have seen for the mask/hood was tanking a handgun that is nowhere near the power of what Aphrodite packs...

Pheromones:

Another option we have to even the odds is pheremonal control. While her full on seduction programming may not be all that advantageous in combat, the pheromones are quite potent, and should be enough to make a man pause or stumble in combat, creating a fatal misstep (as seen with the guards she was approaching in the below scans):

Speed:

I have one thing to add on the speed bit, as I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe Azrael can match her here. I already stated that on average she can clear 100 meters in about 11 seconds, and with a moderate surge can do it in 7 seconds without even getting winded, and we have seen her react to a speedster. Well, she can clear 13 meters, clearing an additional 1 meter gap around some shielding, all the while dodging gunfire, and killing her target in the range of 1.2 seconds:

Granted, it was a drain, but if she sees a weak spot, she can tag it pretty quickly, but of course doesn't have to use all her power reserves at once.

Stealth:

Of course the Aphrodite models are all proficient in stealth and general sneakiness. Like being able to sneak past the high tech security systems of Cyberforce:

Or being able to turn off her scent and remain undetected from a whole slew of genetically altered trackers with enhanced senses:

Not to mention she can change her appearance, which is really neither here nor there for this fight, but she is exceedingly stealthy. Just to note, they were never able to find her until she decided to show herself.

Firearms:

Which all leads me to this right here. One thing I mentioned earlier was that I noticed a scan of Azrael and the mask was torn, which shows that there are weaknesses and chinks in the armor. With Aphrodite's sensors and computer, she can and will find those weak spots. What makes this exceedingly dangerous is that even if I can't truly close the hand to hand skill gap in the eyes of some, which I feel I have, this is one spot that is hard to argue against.

She most definitely has superhuman accuracy:

Let's really think about this series of scans. From 500 meters on full auto, she was able to write on a wall with bullets without missing a letter, and used better handwriting than most people would do with a pencil and paper. Not to mention that on full auto, she was full on sniping the oncoming foes with headshots without releasing the trigger at over 1500 meters (!?!?). And to point out, those were armored CDI troops, which speaks to the power of her rifle. I'd contend here that she has the speed to get out of sight, stealth, hide, and find the weak point in his armor to take him down with that killer aim.

Now, he does have feats of deflecting bullets with his sword, but I have two points for that:

Point 1: That was done with a foe he was directly facing.

Point 2: She can time her shots exceedingly well, and people with superhuman accuracy have been known to tag bullet timers/speedsters.

On timing her shots...well she spelled the word "run" on full auto without missing a beat. She has also spelled another word, and did it such exact timing that she was able to stop a speedster and her speedster dog dead in their tracks:

With that kind of timing and aim, and the power of her rifle...well, that could spell trouble for Azrael.

Self-Repairing Systems:

I guess I should also add, that all Aphrodite models have self-repairing systems. While not exactly on the level of Wolverine speed wise, it will do in a pinch, healing her organic and cybernetic bits:

This girl has what it takes to cover this battle from multiple angles, and should be more than capable of finding the chink in Jean Paul's armor to put him down for the count. With her combat computer, pheromones, speed, stealth capability, superhuman accuracy, and the ability to increase her striking power, I think it is pretty clear that the skill gap can be closed=)

And this time, instead of trying for witty repartee, I am going for straight hawtness...hey, sex sells, what can I say?

Jean Paul could never in his life hope to look that sexy in that pose and outfit=)

#25 Posted by IcePrince_X (4865 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh la la... love the way this debate is happening! Giving justice to this android babe.

#26 Edited by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: now this debate is getting really interesting!

I must say that Aphrodite girl is tough, but Azrael is tougher.

Azrael may feasibly have the strength and damage output to eventually do it, but it won't be easy by any stretch of the imagination

I agree, it won't be easy, I honestly believe that this would be a serious bloody fight. Two quite durable opponents, with healing factors (yes, he packs a minor healing factor as well), enhanced stats and all the other goodies they possess, I'm sure this fight won't end up quickly.

The thing is though, Azrael has consistently shown to be able to take on the best fighters of his universe. We are talking about the likes of Batman, Deathstroke, Nightwing, Tim Drake, Bane, Huntress etc.. Even Batman has asserted in the past that if not for the mental programming from The System, Azrael could become a better fighter than him.

We are talking about a character that received training from the Sacred Order of St. Dumas to prepare him for his role since before he was born. Remember that as a test-tube baby, from his conception Jean-Paul's genetic structure was altered by scientists with Animal DNA, engineering him to be capable of feats beyond those of a normal human The source of Azrael's abilities is a post-hypnotic training regimen known as The System. Basically, the end result is a human being who is inhumanly strong and fast.

Basically, he possess centuries worth of training, and although not the best martial artist of the DCU, Aphrodite is quite far from being able to outskills him. They both have dangerous ways to take on eachother using some good shot's but I can't see her being able to tag him more than he does in return, and even if that was the case he is far more likely to remain standing after each hit than she is. Not only is he more durable through his armor, you may take into consideration that she possess some limitations you can't find on him. Azrael's costume has bullet proof protection, and If they fight at close combat, which he is superior, he also has the strength advantage to easily rip her limbs off.

Now, when I said limitations, this is what I meant about her:

I can push my abilities with a focused adreno-glycaline surge, but it has its limits. Redlining grants me enough force to kill an armored man with only my hands, but I have to be fast...At that level I'll tire very quickly.

Would that mean she isn't on pair with Azrael from the beginning? Considering she must boost herself to achieve such a high level of performance, against a random fodder, which results in exhaustion, how would she behave herself against someone like him? Who is a real badass, using his superior stats all the way along with his viciuso weapons in this fight.

Since I mentioned his weapons, I believe now it's a good opportunity to show you his "Angel's wrath", which consists in a blast he projects from his gauntlets that are able to disrupt human's central nervous system through a magnetic mechanism. Check this out:

scan:

This also leads me to say that he also possess superior ranged attack. He can use this tactic to bring her to a close combat where he would put her down sooner or later.

So far these are the advantages I can clearly see Azrael having over Aphrodite:

  • Superior Strength
  • Superior Durability
  • Superior Martial Skill
  • Superior Ranged Attack

Aphrodite's Integrated Computer

The CDI Model V.9 is good and all, BUT, I don't think it allows her to predict enemy patterns. So I don't think she will be able to predict what exactly Azrael is going to do. I'm sure it doesn't work like precognition. It's seems to be a general scanning. Also, from the scans you posted, it seems like she had time to use said ability to get a general view of the enemy. Frankly, I don't see this thing working as a key factor in this fight, specially against someone like Azrael. The guy is not the type of character you can successfully know how to behave yourself against. Not to mention he is half animal (considering the genetic engineering he received), thus, I don't think her mecanism would work properly on him.

scan:

Pheromones

First, Aphrodite would have to pass through his helmet and mask to successfully use her pheromones against him, and even if she could. Azrael has been shown to have a resistance to mental manipulation thanks to the proccess he received from The System. For example, one of his foes, an enemy called Nicholas Scratch, who has the power of subtle mental manipulation often referred to as super human charisma which is not much different from pheromones. Not to mention that is highly unlikely for this tactic to work at this scenario where both combatants find themselves into a fight situation, I mean, Azrael is no slouch, he won't fall to such thing, this is more likely to work on cannon fodder and random characters.

Speed

I accept the fact that she is very fast, agile and etc but I don't see he being that much fast, not enough to put her above him. Even if she is, it's not by much, considering Azrael is guy who is often seen fighting quite fast and agile enemies as well, like Batman for example. Dealing with that kind of threats isn't new for him, it's something he is used to. As said before, he is a bullet-timer, being able to dodge gunfire, block and even catch projectiles from respected marksman characters such as Huntress. Next scans proves what I've just said:

Stealth

Honestly, this is another aspect they are both in equal conditions. I don't think either of them will be able to successfully use said skill over the other. So no advantages here. Azrael received training from Batman, so it's safe to say he is pretty much covered in this department. Not to mention he was The Batman himself back in the Knightfall story arc. He is more than capable of dealing with her 'stealthiness' prowess.

scan:

Vanishes in front of two ninjas!

Weapons

Well, if that is the only way Aphrodite she can use to take him out, if that's her best shot, then Azrael won't have that much of trouble I thought he would have. She will have to do a lot better than that. To start, he is a bullet-dodger. I've already posted the scans showing him dodging multiple shots at close range from a machine. He can close the gap while dodging the gunfire and strike the enemy off guard. Even if she manage to tag him, a couple of shots won't be enough to put him down. So it's highly unlikely for her to defeat him like that. Aphrodite won't have time for a proper aiming, 300 ft isn't enough to give her a safe distance to accomplish that move. Plus he can just block them all either with his gauntlets or flame sword.

scan:

Healing Factor

Yes, her self-repair system is quite impressive, but that means nothing if you consider that are other ways of winning. Since for this fight we are using standard elimination rules, Azrael is more than capable to incapacitate or knocked Aphordite out. The healing factor won't save her in this scenario. Just remember how many times Wolverine, (who possess a far more advanced healing factor and is far more durable as well), got himself KO'ed and incapactitated in the past, specially by other street level character with high martial skill. Azrael is stated to be a highly skilled martial artist even without the superhuman stats, imagine when using his armor.

The way I see it, Azrael is by a good margin the superior fighter. Add to that the superior overall skill, specially in terms of combat and you have a big advantage and a solid gap between them. After all, Azrael was able to take on Batman, Nightwing and Robin at the same time. We are not talking about random characters and cannon fodder, we are talking about 3 of the most skilled characters from DC Universe. Next scans also shows his stealth ability, being able to disappear in front of 3 masters of stealth.

In the end of the day, she will need much more than sex appeal to win this fight. Azrael is clearly Aphrodite's superior.

#27 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

"now this debate is getting really interesting!"

Well, I couldn't lay all my cards out at once, I had to see some of what you had up your sleeve (that and I had to go to bed). =)

"I must say that Aphrodite girl is tough, but Azrael is tougher."

Tough, but tougher? Not sure I fully agree on this point.

"I agree, it won't be easy, I honestly believe that this would be a serious bloody fight. Two quite durable opponents, with healing factors (yes, he packs a minor healing factor as well), enhanced stats and all the other goodies they possess, I'm sure this fight won't end up quickly."

On this, we most definitely agree.

"The thing is though, Azrael has consistently shown to be able to take on the best fighters of his universe."

I'll mention this again, but I am not going to get into scans, because that would take forever, and I am limited with what I have with me (at work currently, so this post is taking forever for me type out). For the DC side, these are all names everyone knows and is familiar with.

The names I have to throw out are a little less known, but are more than capable of giving the DC guys a good debatable fight. My girl tangles with the likes of Sara (who gives the top guy, Ian a run for his money), Jackie (who gives Tora No Shi a run for his money), three members of Cyberforce that were taken down in no time flat which includes a speedster in that number, and in the current run is so proficient, so bad arse, that she has not met her match as of yet.

IX is nothing if not consistent, and is a model that is far improved over her predecessors. She is above and beyond the other Aphrodite's.

"We are talking about a character that received training from the Sacred Order of St. Dumas to prepare him for his role since before he was born. Remember that as a test-tube baby, from his conception Jean-Paul's genetic structure was altered by scientists with Animal DNA, engineering him to be capable of feats beyond those of a normal human."

And with Aphrodite IX, remember, she is a test tube baby herself, the first being ever to be born with both cybernetic and genetic enhancements. Everything she knows was programmed into her, and basically she has the data and experience of all other previous models that have been tested against artifact bearer's and grade a bad arses. She as well possess a century or two worth of training, combat, weapon experience, and has a system that is constantly learning (like how she learned a new language and drove a vehicle she has never seen nor used before) and adapting. Not to mention, she has ripped limbs off foes herself without much power expenditure:

And with her durability being what it is, I am not so sure limb ripping would be all that easy=)

"Would that mean she isn't on pair with Azrael from the beginning? Considering she must boost herself to achieve such a high level of performance, against a random fodder, which results in exhaustion, how would she behave herself against someone like him? Who is a real badass, using his superior stats all the way along with his viciuso weapons in this fight."

If she runs herself for too long or pushes herself too hard, then yes, she can drain herself. I listed in a post above the stats she would be at with no drain or moderate drain, which can run her for awhile. With little drain to no drain, she is still a bullet timer, and capable of taking out armored robots with her bare hands (because right after that, she took on multiple waves of foes using the blade kata without issue, both of which I have shown scans for previously).

In the scan you have shown, she still had plenty of juice to finish the mission, it's just the armor she was dealing with was really quite durable, so she had to work with some bit of urgency and power to take them down, and had to do it quickly due to everything that was going on, time was of the essence in that mission. She redlined in that scan against multiple durable foes, but didn't redline long enough to drop herself. This is something she can do in bursts if needed, and she didn't have the blade kata that fight either.

You can see plenty of scans in my earlier posts with her easily dealing with fodder with little to no power drain. Heck, even IX's first fight in the new series, she finished off her foes after she was first awakened in the new series with only 12% power and was still alright.

With her tech enhanced blade kata, I don't foresee a need for her to use all that much energy, but she can increase strength and striking power to hurt armored and durable foes. His strength may be greater, but Aphrodite's in the past have tangled with the Witchblade, which has the strength and power to oneshot a speeding semi:

So stronger foes aren't new to them.

"So far these are the advantages I can clearly see Azrael having over Aphrodite: Superior Strength, Superior Durability, Superior Martial Skill, Superior Ranged Attack"

Superior strength, yes, he definitely does, but Aphrodite's have tangled with stronger and come out on top. Durability? Don't agree. He has to wear armor for protection for one, and Aphrodite is capable of tanking falls, bullets, and explosions without the use of armor, as well has getting the Witchblade through the gut and managing to win the fight, and walk away. Superior Martial Skill? Still debatable. Azrael has known names to his track record, while Aphrodite has lesser known names to the populace at large, but these names could give most of DCs upper tier street levels a run for their money. Add in her other advantages, things begin to move more into her favor. Superior Ranged Atack? Still think that falls into Aphrodite's corner with the Coin of Solomon, but we will get to that.

"The CDI Model V.9 is good and all, BUT, I don't think it allows her to predict enemy patterns"

Actually it does. Recheck this scan:

Real time combat monitoring with predictions, predicting the moves, how to react and counter her foe, all in an instant, no extra time needed. Even breaking down the foe to his very fighting style. Not to mention it even points out weaknesses, can tell if someone is genetically or cybernetically enhanced and more, recheck this scan:

She processes information faster than a human, and this processing speed increases with her stats. The first box represents the neural processing speed of an average human male, the second box represents IX's baseline neural processing speed, and the final represents her processing speed with moderate surge use:

As well, the genetic faction in the series have spliced their genes with various animals and such for improvements. It has worked against genetically and cybernetically enhanced opponents, so the genetic engineering is not a problem.

"First, Aphrodite would have to pass through his helmet and mask to successfully use her pheromones against him, and even if she could. Azrael has been shown to have a resistance to mental manipulation thanks to the proccess he received from The System."

The mask has been torn before, and I would question if it has any feats such as filtering the air he breathes. Remember, this isn't a mental attack, so while mental resistance and his ability to resist an aura of charisma is great and all, this is purely chemical. Not to mention that it has been exceedingly potent everytime she has used it. This doesn't force him to do anything, it doesn't control him or make him a slave, it simply plays on natural human urges, and multiplies those urges to ridiculous degrees. It can and has caused distractions, and I see no reason why it wouldn't here, unless Azrael has resisted pheromones in the past.

"I accept the fact that she is very fast, agile and etc but I don't see he being that much fast, not enough to put her above him."

He does have good feats of speed and reaction, but I still haven't seen much that puts him on par with IX here. Remember, Aphrodite's have reacted to speedsters, and the instance of covering the 13 meters and killing a foe while dodging gunfire in around 1.2 seconds...I agree that he is fast, I am just not quite convinced he is on her level.

"Stealth: Honestly, this is another aspect they are both in equal conditions."

I am not at home, so I don't have the scan with me currently, but Aphrodite's are expert trackers, and not to mention her long range sensing capabilities which can be seen in previous scans. The scan I am talking about that I don't have here was from Cyberforce, and Aphrodite V proved capable of tracking her quarry even after the use of blinders, which is advanced tech capable of hiding/disguising/covering tracks, and generally requires more advanced tech to see through. Not to mention V's sensors are not on par with IX's, who can track and sense at longer ranges. With the ability to hide from even trackers with enhanced senses, and the ability to track foes with her sensors, I still see the advantage as being in her court.

"Well, if that is the only way Aphrodite she can use to take him out"

Not the only way, but it is a good option. She could still slice the armor with the blade kata, or increase her striking power like with the armored foes she has faced. And there is another option, but I will save that for last.

"To start, he is a bullet-dodger."

I am sure we both know that bullet timers/dodgers can and have gotten tagged by bullets before (I've even seen at least one scan of Azrael himself getting tagged in the head with a bullet). It's all a matter of timing, predicting your opponent (which IX has a leg up on), and utilizing that with a killer aim. I have shown you that Aphrodite's have all of that, and have never really missed a shot. She has everything she needs to hit a bullet timer, and I think she has a better than average chance here, if she were to choose that route.

"Aphrodite won't have time for a proper aiming"

She did head shots to multiple moving armored foes in multiple spots on full auto with that gun. I don't know or won't guess on your life experiences, but having shot a gun on full auto, maintaining your aim after the first shot on a fully automatic weapon is almost impossible. And that is against one, stationary target. Not to mention that she spells words with bullets on full auto. Add to all of this her enhanced neural processing speed, and I think she'll have plenty time to aim.

"300 ft isn't enough to give her a safe distance to accomplish that move"

She can close 13 meters and kill a foe while dodging gunfire in 1.2 seconds...I think she has a better than average chance to get to a safe distance. She also has an option to create a nice little explosion to give her some time as well, and I will discuss that last.

Honestly, she has more than enough to show that she can tag a bullet timer. Azrael being able to block, dodge, and such is all a matter of timing. So what happens when he faces someone with superhuman timing and accuracy with firearms? I'd contend he get's shot. Not to mention, I have only seen him block bullets on foes he is actively facing without the proven feats of Aphrodite here...and he is facing someone with the means to hide, track, and snipe him.

"Azrael is more than capable to incapacitate or knocked Aphordite out"

She has tanked explosions and concussive forces, and isn't exactly human, doesn't have a human's physiology. I'd contest he might have a difficult time doing either, considering she can predict moves and enhance her stats, and she isn't built like the humans Azrael is used to dealing with. Not to mention, she can feasibly take him down like she did the Witchblade, armored robots, and other armored foes.

"Add to that the superior overall skill, specially in terms of combat and you have a big advantage and a solid gap between them."

A gap that can be closed by a combat computer, pheromones, superhuman accuracy/timing, speed, stealth and so on as previously mentioned.

"We are not talking about random characters and cannon fodder, we are talking about 3 of the most skilled characters from DC Universe."

And Sara, Jackie, Cyberforce, Ian, Tora No Shi...none of those are fodder either, which that list includes some of the most skilled characters from the Top Cow U.

"Next scans also shows his stealth ability, being able to disappear in front of 3 masters of stealth."

All of which rely on purely human senses, all without built in long range scanning/sensing equipment that does it's thing automatically, and again, she remains undetectable by guys with genetically enhanced senses=)

"Since I mentioned his weapons, I believe now it's a good opportunity to show you his "Angel's wrath", which consists in a blast he projects from his gauntlets that are able to disrupt human's central nervous system through a magnetic mechanism."

So, you were hiding something up your proverbial sleeve...well, so was I=)

Coin of Solomon

Now, it's full power is kind of vague, but here is some intel on it:

Two Aphrodite models have been implanted with the coin that we know of, originally IV and currently IX. The use of the insight bit, well, I can't really tell you about, since it is never really touched upon, so I won't bother using that. What it does have though is some pretty decent destructive power to it:

Now, Azrael can probably tank an explosion/blast, so I won't try and argue a blast or explosion taking him down, though I would argue with it's power, it could sting quite a bit (it took out the Cyberforce ship for one), but the coin has another type of attack. Bear in mind, this attack affected Sara in full Witchblade armor, and she has been shown to be energy resistant (even had a guy capable of assuming an electric type form that was unable to harm her), and I know I have heard that Azrael has tanked a lightning bolt before in his armor, but this attack isn't electricity (it is mystic/magic/supernatural) and is able to hurt someone with durability and energy resistance/immunity:

I would argue that for superior ranged attacks, this little puppy might take the cake, and depending on how it is used, could make for a bad day for Azrael. While Azrael's attack may work well for a human, Aphrodite IX is a bit beyond human, and her computer will let her know about his tech. Not to mention she can create explosive distractions if needed to get away for some stealth/sniping, and the aforementioned attack for close range.

"In the end of the day, she will need much more than sex appeal to win this fight."

Sure, she most definitely will, but the sex appeal doesn't hurt=)

Like I said, Aphrodite IX has what it takes to put Azrael down here, and she most definitely has more than sex appeal going for her=)

#28 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Alright, not sure how many more posts you want to go with this my friend, but I don't want this to turn into both of us repeating the same thing over and over, just using different wording like a few CaVs I have seen (not that we are fully into that, both of our last posts have provided new items and points of view). To keep from the monotony, I am thinking maybe one or two more posts each for rebuttal to close this out, then move to voting?

#29 Edited by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: I agree, two more posts each should be enough if there isn't any new info to be added to the debate.

Great debate so far!

#30 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Sounds good then, and I agree, been going well so far=)

#31 Edited by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong:

IX is nothing if not consistent, and is a model that is far improved over her predecessors. She is above and beyond the other Aphrodite's.

That sounds great on the paper but still not enough to put her on pair with Azrael in terms of martial skill. You can't compare computer programming with actual combat experience. He constantly proved to be more than a formidable fighter, and his training combined with his stats led him to victories over characters that clearly had more training and combat experience than him. Taking Batman for example, someone who has mastered more than a hundred martial arts, fought and defeated other top martial artists like himself, even having prior knowledge about JPV, Bruce couldn't help being defeated by him, he even says he gave him his bests shots. Batman is far more skilled than Aphrodite, and considering Azrael stats are superior, I say she can't compete with him in the skill department.

If she runs herself for too long or pushes herself too hard, then yes, she can drain herself.

You can see plenty of scans in my earlier posts with her easily dealing with fodder with little to no power drain. Heck, even IX's first fight in the new series, she finished off her foes after she was first awakened in the new series with only 12% power and was still alright.

So there is a possibility. That was my point. She has a weakness, and Azrael can and will explore it. Not to mention this is not her regular every day fight, she's not dealing with fodder. JPV is more than capable of dealing with a extensive fight, operating in a high level, but the same can't be said for her. If she try to keep that level of fighting prowess, she will fall eventually. So there is no escape in this scenario. If she didn't use her boosting abilities to keep up with him, she will lose quickly, but in return, by using it for too long will exaust her and she will fall eventually. Azrael is the guy for this job. Take his fights as example, he put his enemies down without much effort or showing any sign of fatigue, so at worst, considering he can't outright defeat her, further considering his capabilities, Azrael will maintain the fight going until she can no longer fight on the same level.

Real time combat monitoring with predictions, predicting the moves, how to react and counter her foe, all in an instant, no extra time needed. Even breaking down the foe to his very fighting style. Not to mention it even points out weaknesses, can tell if someone is genetically or cybernetically enhanced and more, recheck this scan:

The scan doesn't indicates predictions, you can't predict something without a specific power such a danger/radar sense. She doesn't have that. That ability of hers isn't working like that, she actually need to spend some time (even if minimum) to analize her enemy, process information and than act accordingly to the result. It gives the best option through a preliminary scan, it's far from being a precog ability.

The mask has been torn before, and I would question if it has any feats such as filtering the air he breathes. Remember, this isn't a mental attack, so while mental resistance and his ability to resist an aura of charisma is great and all, this is purely chemical. Not to mention that it has been exceedingly potent everytime she has used it. This doesn't force him to do anything, it doesn't control him or make him a slave, it simply plays on natural human urges, and multiplies those urges to ridiculous degrees. It can and has caused distractions, and I see no reason why it wouldn't here, unless Azrael has resisted pheromones in the past.

Well, he has never shown any sign of discomfort walking through fire, surviving explosions, which involves lack of air, smoke, etc. Not to mention that he was able to survive to a dump truck of toxic sludge that was dumped on him, by simply crawling away from it. That feat alone is more than enough to prove how high is the resistance of his body. I don't think Aphrodite can provide anything close to that in terms of chemicals. If she try to do this move, Azrael will have a good oportunity to strike her off guard, considering the attempt will fail and his enemy will be vulnerable even for a brief moment.

He does have good feats of speed and reaction, but I still haven't seen much that puts him on par with IX here. Remember, Aphrodite's have reacted to speedsters, and the instance of covering the 13 meters and killing a foe while dodging gunfire in around 1.2 seconds...I agree that he is fast, I am just not quite convinced he is on her level.

I don't see that speedster feat being that much great, It's a good feat but nothing another street level character such as Punisher wouldn't be able to replicate. It's like dodging the aim of the shooter, not the bullet. I mean, that speedster was running straight forward, so it facilitates a little bit. Not to mention that she doesn't pack enough speed advantage over Azrael to say that will be the key factor of the match. He is more than capable to deal with her speed-wise. Check out this jump feats:

I am not at home, so I don't have the scan with me currently, but Aphrodite's are expert trackers, and not to mention her long range sensing capabilities which can be seen in previous scans. The scan I am talking about that I don't have here was from Cyberforce, and Aphrodite V proved capable of tracking her quarry even after the use of blinders, which is advanced tech capable of hiding/disguising/covering tracks, and generally requires more advanced tech to see through. Not to mention V's sensors are not on par with IX's, who can track and sense at longer ranges. With the ability to hide from even trackers with enhanced senses, and the ability to track foes with her sensors, I still see the advantage as being in her court.

There is no advantage in stealth here. I could argue Azrael being the superior between the two but I will concede both are fairly even in this area. I mean, Azrael was fighting Batman, Nightwing and Robin at the same time. They were all looking at him and still he was able to disappear from them inside the batcave! Come on?! How can you top that? If this doesn't count as a major stealth feat, then I don't know what can. We are talking about Batman here, the master of stealth, the one who disappears, inside his home. Note how surprised they were. Aphrodite is far from being on their level of stealth skill.

I am sure we both know that bullet timers/dodgers can and have gotten tagged by bullets before (I've even seen at least one scan of Azrael himself getting tagged in the head with a bullet). It's all a matter of timing, predicting your opponent (which IX has a leg up on), and utilizing that with a killer aim. I have shown you that Aphrodite's have all of that, and have never really missed a shot. She has everything she needs to hit a bullet timer, and I think she has a better than average chance here, if she were to choose that route.

Azrael was shot in the head while he was taking a conversation so that doesn't really count, considering he possess several dodging feats, even catching projectiles in mid air. Not to mention that all her skill with a gun is useless here since she tries to defeat him with firearms. There's too much durability going on him to prevent him from being killed by bullets.

She has tanked explosions and concussive forces, and isn't exactly human, doesn't have a human's physiology. I'd contest he might have a difficult time doing either, considering she can predict moves and enhance her stats, and she isn't built like the humans Azrael is used to dealing with. Not to mention, she can feasibly take him down like she did the Witchblade, armored robots, and other armored foes.

Azrael didn't dealt with only humans. Bane with venom isn't a regular human. How about Deathstroke? He is more than used to deal with metahumans constantly. The thing is, he is not a mere armored robot or other random character. I don't see her being able to take him down, he is too skilled and durable for her to deal with, not to mention his weapons, the flame sword and daggers she must deal with first.

Coin of Solomon

Couple of questions:

  • Is it standard for her to use it in character?
  • How many time she used it before?

But I feel it's not enough power to pass through his armor and reach his body, which he can still regenerate.

I see Azrael raising engulfed in flames as the winner of this epic battle.

#32 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

Amazing!!!

#33 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Glad to see two characters who never get attention all that much being used.

#34 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Alright, let's get to closing this bad boy out!

"That sounds great on the paper but still not enough to put her on pair with Azrael in terms of martial skill. You can't compare computer programming with actual combat experience."

When the computer programming in question has been proven to match actual combat skill, and she has a computer capable of predicting a foes moves and pegs them down to their very combat style, laying out weak points, genetic enhancements, cybernetics and equipment, well I wholeheartedly disagree. Not to mention the Aphrodite's are about more than just a predicting computer. Many of the fights I have shown you are Aprhodite without the predicting computer. IV's fights against Sara? No combat computer. IX's fights against the waves of enemies with the blade kata and the robots? No combat computer. That was her skill alone. She has been programmed to know the majority of mankind's killing arts, and it shows. Her "training" was a matter of computer programming, but it is just as effective as actual training, and she has been shown to adapt and improvise, so she isn't set to just a strict program. She is skilled, and we have seen that plenty of times over.

The predicting combat computer is just icing on the cake that puts her a little over Azrael here.

"So there is a possibility. That was my point. She has a weakness, and Azrael can and will explore it. Not to mention this is not her regular every day fight, she's not dealing with fodder. JPV is more than capable of dealing with a extensive fight, operating in a high level, but the same can't be said for her. If she try to keep that level of fighting prowess, she will fall eventually. So there is no escape in this scenario. If she didn't use her boosting abilities to keep up with him, she will lose quickly, but in return, by using it for too long will exaust her and she will fall eventually. Azrael is the guy for this job. Take his fights as example, he put his enemies down without much effort or showing any sign of fatigue, so at worst, considering he can't outright defeat her, further considering his capabilities, Azrael will maintain the fight going until she can no longer fight on the same level."

It's not really much of a weakness when she doesn't have to redline here. Azrael may not be fodder, but neither is the Witchblade, the Darkness, and the other Artifact bearers. If she can fight and overcome those odds without fatigue, then I don't see where Azrael brings anything all that special or new to the table. Not to mention that again, she thought about redlining, but never showed any signs of fatigue in those fights, and won't have to increase her striking power thanks to the blade kata, which can cut through armored robots, or she can take the stealth route, and snipe him to death after finding the existing weakness in his armor (see the torn mask reference again, and her gun is capable of putting down armored foes).

There is no escape, that much is true, but it's just that there is no escape for Azrael here. IX will be just fine=)

"The scan doesn't indicates predictions, you can't predict something without a specific power such a danger/radar sense. She doesn't have that. That ability of hers isn't working like that, she actually need to spend some time (even if minimum) to analize her enemy, process information and than act accordingly to the result. It gives the best option through a preliminary scan, it's far from being a precog ability."

Actually, that's exactly what that scan indicates. It laid out the opponent's fighting style, and it laid out three moves: Feint, dodge, incapacitating strike.

What do we see in the following panels? He goes to attack, and she feints. He attacks again, she dodges. He leaves an opening, she goes for the incapcitating strike, and takes him down.

Now, I don't know anyone else's definition of predictions, but it laid out the fight before it happened, she followed the predictions, and the moves countered the foe exactly as it was laid out. The first two moves in that fight were counters to specific attacks that were made.

She doesn't need a danger or radar sense. What we have here is an exceedingly advanced piece of technology. We don't argue that Midnighter's computer doesn't work because he doesn't have some sort of danger or radar sense. We accept what it does, because that is what it is shown to do. Just like her tech has been explicitly shown to do what I have stated. She has technology that is far beyond our capability to really know or understand how it functions.

But if it helps to clear the air:

Right there in the print: Predictive combat analysis. So there really is no arguing or denying it, especially by the very telling word: predictive. Considering she process information faster than a human, which I have laid out and can prove, the computer laid out the entirety of the fight and fighting style breakdown all in one panel as she grips a knife and isn't even looking at the foe...that is not what I consider any considerable amount of time to analyze. Her hand touches a knife and she is shown to instantaneously have everything she needs for the fight, as I have stated.

She isn't sitting there, staring at him as he comes at her while talking. This isn't happening over several panels, carefully laying out plans and options. She touches a knife and instantly has her intel for fighting Marcus with the fight laid out fully to the finest detail. The computer is fully proven to be what I said it was: A predictive combat computer.

"Well, he has never shown any sign of discomfort walking through fire, surviving explosions, which involves lack of air, smoke, etc. Not to mention that he was able to survive to a dump truck of toxic sludge that was dumped on him, by simply crawling away from it. That feat alone is more than enough to prove how high is the resistance of his body. I don't think Aphrodite can provide anything close to that in terms of chemicals. If she try to do this move, Azrael will have a good oportunity to strike her off guard, considering the attempt will fail and his enemy will be vulnerable even for a brief moment."

Considering her body is self adjusting to various environments (shown in a scan in a previous post when she first awakens in the future and the air quality is not found to be compatible, her systems adjust for her and she shows no noticeable discomfort nor gasping for air), is upwards of 175% resistant to radiation with moderate surge, and can withstand up to 9gs of force (all intel found in the recently released Aphrodite files)...I think she can more than compare, considering she as well has also tanked explosions which include fire and smoke without showing any sign of discomfort (which I have already shown).

The pheromones are not a move for her to try. She releases the pheromones, which has no tell tale sign or button to press, and they do their work. Pheromones are something completely different than toxic fumes, and smoke. Back in the day, firefighters used to call themselves smoke eaters before the days of airpacks, and were quite proficient at going through burning structures with heat and smoke to do their job. They did it without a mask, and did it without looking like they were in any discomfort. So Azrael having the durability to make it through such does nothing to prove much of anything about his mask, and all of this does even less to prove anything against chemicals that play on specific human instincts, functions and such. You can't equate toxic fumes and smoke to pheromones, it just doesn't work.

She'll release the pheromones, and unless Azrael has resisted as such, it can and will create a distraction.

"I don't see that speedster feat being that much great, It's a good feat but nothing another street level character such as Punisher wouldn't be able to replicate. It's like dodging the aim of the shooter, not the bullet. I mean, that speedster was running straight forward, so it facilitates a little bit. Not to mention that she doesn't pack enough speed advantage over Azrael to say that will be the key factor of the match. He is more than capable to deal with her speed-wise."

I really, very highly doubt that the Punisher (and probably not Azrael) is going to replicate that feat. That is a feat that is beyond human, she was dodging a tech enhanced opponent that was actively firing long before she moved (and had their position and had them pinned down), so she was in fact dodging bullets, not the aim, and I have seen nothing that would make me believe Azrael can keep up with her speed.

The jump feats, while impressive, doesn't lead me to believe he can match her speed.

"There is no advantage in stealth here. I could argue Azrael being the superior between the two but I will concede both are fairly even in this area. I mean, Azrael was fighting Batman, Nightwing and Robin at the same time. They were all looking at him and still he was able to disappear from them inside the batcave! Come on?! How can you top that? If this doesn't count as a major stealth feat, then I don't know what can. We are talking about Batman here, the master of stealth, the one who disappears, inside his home. Note how surprised they were. Aphrodite is far from being on their level of stealth skill."

She avoided genetically enhanced trackers, with genetically enhanced beasties, all with genetically enhanced senses, and was not discovered until she showed herself. Not to mention the long range sensors capable of sensing opponents before she sees them...which I have already shown scans of each.

Sure, Azrael was able to hide from opponents with human senses, human level processing skills and so on. Aphrodite still processes information far faster than humans, has the long range sensing equipment which is above human senses, and hid from genetically enhanced trackers.

Azrael has a good stealth feat against human opponents. Against IX, not so much=)

Stealth Advantage: Aphrodite IX

"Azrael was shot in the head while he was taking a conversation so that doesn't really count, considering he possess several dodging feats, even catching projectiles in mid air. Not to mention that all her skill with a gun is useless here since she tries to defeat him with firearms. There's too much durability going on him to prevent him from being killed by bullets."

And again, her skill with a firearm, aim, and timing are beyond human. She has the timing to stop a speedster dead in her tracks, writes words with bullets on full auto, and does head shots to multiple and armored moving foes while firing on full auto. She has the timing to tag a bullet timer, and for someone so easily distracted with simple discussion, makes me think it counts. Bullet timers get tagged by exceptional shots in the world of comics, and those with the timing. From what I have seen, if she wants to shoot him, she will, and he will get hit. She has bullets capable of piercing armor (beyond the handgun he was shot with), he has a mask that can be torn, and a computer capable of laying out the weak spots.

I see no real argument against this happening.

"Azrael didn't dealt with only humans. Bane with venom isn't a regular human. How about Deathstroke? He is more than used to deal with metahumans constantly. The thing is, he is not a mere armored robot or other random character. I don't see her being able to take him down, he is too skilled and durable for her to deal with, not to mention his weapons, the flame sword and daggers she must deal with first."

I never said he "only" dealt with humans. I said she isn't built like the humans he has dealt with, and while Bane and DS aren't regular humans, they are still human, enhanced as they may be. The point being that she doesn't have their human physiology, without all of the human weaknesses, pressure points, organs and so on. She has tri-helix DNA and three additional chromosome pairs, with cybernetics and systems capable of adjusting to alien environments. Compared to her, yeah, DS and Bane are way human.

Bane may not be a robot or random fodder, but again, neither are the Darkness, the Witchblade, the artifact bearers and so on. She has faced characters that would give Azrael the fight of his life, and those that Azrael would have no chance in Hades against.

To match his skill, flame sword/daggers, durability...we have what I have been bringing up: a predicting and foe analyzing combat computer, pheromones, tech enhanced blade kata, stealth, armor piercing sniper rifle, superhuman aim/accuracy/timing, durability and regenerating/repairing systems, long range sensors, increased neural processing and the ability to increase her stats. She has more than enough to match his skill here and take this fight for the majority.

"Couple of questions: Is it standard for her to use it in character? How many time she used it before?"

Utilizing the stipulation that I get all feats from all previous Aphrodite models, then yes, it is most definitely in character from the IV model feats. It was given to her at the start of the storyline which led to the rewriting of the Top Cow U, and was used when needed in the major battles. I'd have to go back through the issues to find the exact number of times it was used, but as an estimation, it was probably used in at least half of her battles since being received. Enough to say she can and will use it when needed.

"But I feel it's not enough power to pass through his armor and reach his body, which he can still regenerate."

It bypassed the Witchblade, which I am sorry, but that is far above and beyond Azrael's armor. Not to mention again, but it is a mystic/supernatural/magic attack. Show me Azrael shrugging off and overcoming an attack that can bypass the Witchblade (which has proven to be able to resist such attacks) and take down a flying ship, then maybe we have something to discuss on that front.

Regardless, after doing this final post, and revisiting a lot of points, I honestly and truly feel it isn't even needed in this fight. I brought it up initially as a fun little counterpoint, but she should take this fight pretty handily without, and Azrael will go down forgotten, just like all the rest:

Seriously though, good debate my friend, and you proved a worthy sparring partner. As discussed in the pm, we'll open this votes for now.

#35 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING:

Remember everyone, you aren't here to vote on your favorite character. You are voting on and basically judging the debate between HigorM and myself. Vote for who you felt put up the best argument for their character. Votes without some sort of reasoning will not be counted, so even if it is just a simple sentence, please give us something to work with. It doesn't have to be a detailed analysis, but something to help us better gauge what we did well and didn't do so well would be appreciative. Any vote that is made purely on the basis of a character being your favorite will not be recognized.

So we don't have to drag this out, whoever gets the most votes in 2 days will be declared the winner.

That good with you @higorm? Oh, and drop some call outs if you think of some people. I'll drop some now, and I'll try and think of a few more peeps.

@neongamewave @cadencev2 @strider92 @jashro44 @god_spawn @wolverine08 @granitesoldier @iceprince_x @sovereign91001 @dondave @laflux @oy_the_billy_bumbler @pope052 @homicidalmaniac

#36 Posted by Wolverine08 (40732 posts) - - Show Bio

Am I allowed to vote for Aphrodite X because she's hot?

#37 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

Am I allowed to vote for Aphrodite X because she's hot?

No, just look at her and drool like everyone else=)

#38 Edited by Wolverine08 (40732 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@wolverine08 said:

Am I allowed to vote for Aphrodite X because she's hot?

No, just look at her and drool like everyone else=)

#39 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Edited by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio
#41 Posted by Wolverine08 (40732 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: I am, I am. I'll vote based on solid arguments mate :D

#42 Edited by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Posted by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: I am, I am. I'll vote based on solid arguments mate :D

I knew it! :P

#44 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio
#45 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm @wyldsong let me say off the bat I'm a huge fan of both of these characters and this made for an interesting and enjoyable debate so good job there gentlemen.

Let's get into it: I'm giving my vote to @wyldsong, you made a solid case, I didn't see to many wholes, you stayed on point, played up Aphrodite's strengths when necessary without making it look like you were wanking. I also must compliment you for your well placed usage of scans, they strengthened your case and I appreciated the efficiency in what you were trying to convey.

@higorm What can I say? You know your stuff and did a commendable job (as usual), this isn't your first debate I've read and it won't be the last. But in a race of feet, every inch counts and Wyldsong edged you out with what I felt was just the stronger case in this debate.

Strong work guys.

#46 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8792 posts) - - Show Bio

Aphrodite would win that is all.

#47 Edited by HigorM (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: oh, we should add that only votes with reasoned opinions would count, like the one our friend @sovereign91001 properly gave, what do you think?

#48 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: @higorm: Great match. Again its rare for me to read through full matches, and I did one not to long ago with Vash the Stameped. So when I saw these never used in tourneys or battles characters, I hope for scans and feats. Glad to learn alot about both.

Close match, I give the edge to Wyldsong however. While stat wise they are comparable, and Azrael has the weapons to do in the Cyborg Chick, I felt the whole paying of "Azrael fought Batman, Bane, DS, ect so he is far more skilled," as a crutch. I love independent comics, and popularity should not play a role here. Which it comes down to. more people know of DC's skilled characters, however who is to say they are better than Top Cow's?

Example. Judge Dredd in his comics never strike me as a skilled fighter, he rarely fought other skilled looking fighters in his comics like ever. Yet in his canon crossover with Batman, he more than keeps ups. If this cross over never happen, people would assume Batman >>>> Dredd instead of the truth of the two being pretty close.

Same scenario here, guys like Ian, Sarah, ect are top tier of their verse, and in every way comparable to Batman or such as well. I was also convinced the advantages of the Midnighter mini Battle CPU she has going on.

Good match.

#49 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (4300 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong @higorm: very nice debate guys. I had a hard time deciding this and was swayed back and forth so I had to re-read a few times and do some research to double check info presented. That being said, I give my vote to higor here, barely. I feel that he backed up his statements marginally better and countered his opponents claims effectively. I appreciate the usage of scans being not too heavy and when used in correct context. bravo.

#50 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@wyldsong: oh, we should add that only votes with reasoned opinions would count, like the one our friend @sovereign91001 properly gave, what do you think?

I almost did that, but wasn't sure if it went too far or not. I'll update it, but allowing for at least a sentence or two of reasoning with an appreciation for detail=)