Alright, the user CIS and I thought about doing a CaV together and we figured that since we have different views on how this fight would end up, this would be the perfect CaV for us.
Get ready @cis
@cis Alright, I'll keep this short for now.
As far as traveling speed goes, the two should be equal to each other.
Just a quick side to side comparison:
If you want another comparison, here's Grievous blitzing Clone Troopers:
And here is Anakin, while a padawan, killing multiple droids with similar levels of speed:
Anakin had his lightsaber out. He was a good three meters ahead of the fastest clone infantryman when a battle droid popped around a corner and fired its weapon. The bolt hit the trooper behind the Jedi. The trooper gasped and collapsed to the floor in a clatter. Anakin disposed of the droid with one sweep of his lightsaber, but other battle droids, six or eight of them, emerged and took up positions directly in front of the control room doors and immediately began firing.
Odie, the clone troopers, and two guards, hit the deck and the bolts lanced harmlessly over them, caroming of the walls and ceiling. None of them could fire back because Anakin was in the way. To Odie lying on the floor watching him, seemed at the center of a cyclone of blue light as his lightsaber whirled and slashed at the droids whose blaster bolts, aimed directly at him at point-blank range, bounced off the high-energy blade and tore into the walls and ceiling. In seconds, the droids were smoking piles of junk. Anakin leapt over the mess, brought his lightsaber down in one swift motion, burst open the doors to the control room, and stepped inside. The whole fight had taken only seconds, and to those watching he had merely strolled through the droids and pushed open the doors.
Source: Jedi Trial
While I am willing to give Grievous the edge here, Anakin is quite comparable in the area of strength.
Anakin, while still a padawan, used strikes so strong that it caused the rocks underneath Ventress to crumble:
And here's a hindered Anakin Skywalker pressuring Kenobi's defenses enough to bend Kenobi's bones and forearms:
Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into a wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am sick of your lectures!" Dark power bore down with his grip. Obi-Wan felt his bones and forearms bending.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
The two feats above will do for now. But just based on them alone, it's safe to say that General Grievous and Skywalker are comparable in strength.
The major point to consider here is how they both fought Dooku.
Grievous has fought and been outmatched by Dooku in spars, but has pressed the Count:
As for Anakin, he and Dooku had almost always been equals. The below is just one example of their duels in general:
I'll touch up a bit on Force powers later as the debate progresses. But for now:
@cis your move.
I think you'll need to organize your sections better so that users have an easier way to read them. Place categories under headings, use the quote option for quotes, and actually import the images rather than give the direct links. Makes it easier.
Armor and durability :
Sheathed in metal more suited to a starfighter
-Labyrinth of Evil
The ceramic armorplast plates protecting limbs and torso and face can stop a burst from a starfighter's laser cannon.
Those indestructible arms are ten times stronger than human, and move with the blurring speed of electronic reflexes.
-Revenge of the Sith
Most reports state that Grievous had no Force abilities,but rumors persist that he received a midi-chlorian-rich blood transfusion from the body of the late Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas.
-Star Wars Insider #86: Unknown Soldier: The Story of General Grievous
Duranium chest plating protected the pressurized gutsac containinc Grievous's organs.
-Star Wars Insider #86: Unknown Soldier: The Story of General Grievous
Duranium was a substance much stronger than either transparisteel or bronzium. It was extremely durable, light, and was capable of withstanding a glancing blow from a lightsaber; however, it also had a very high melting point, making it difficult to shape. It was often used to make prison cells and cages
Durasteel,Used to build everything from space vehicles to dwellings, this ultralightweight metal could withstand radical temperature extremes and severe mechanical stress.
-Wookiepeedia
Grievous's armor can stop several volleys from a Starfighter Laser Cannon, which is incredibly powerful for infantry.
The Power of Laser Cannon : http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228513-laser+cannon.png
I believe that Laser Cannon blast does more damage and is more effective than any lightsaber,which means that even if Anakin menages to break through Grievous's guard,he will barely be able to do anything.
-The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels
The above is irrelevant. Nothing here suggests Grievous could withstand a pierce to the heart or a decapitation.
I believe that Laser Cannon blast does more damage and is more effective than any lightsaber,which means that even if Anakin menages to break through Grievous's guard,he will barely be able to do anything.
So you're saying if Anakin pierces Grievous, destroys his vital organs and/or cuts his head off or even disarms him of his lightsaber it will barely do anything? That's ridiculous. Yes, an explosion does deal more heavy damage, but a lightsaber is more precise and, thus, more deadly for 1v1 combat.
So,Grievous withstanded Ventress stabbing her both lightsabers into his back with very strong jump-off,speed and strenght.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228563-vs+rogues10.png
He also withstanded being pushed right into face by Durge,hitting the massive,harsh piece of statue without any consequences and being electricified
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228562-vs+rogues9.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228564-vs+rogues11.png
He withstood a lightsaber glaze to the back. That does not equal dismemberment, decapitation, or a stab to the vital organs. When actually dealt with a heavy enough slash from a lightsaber(like that of Kenobi), Grievous has been subdued.
Anakin is both more skilled a duelist than Kenobi and a more offensive one. So if Kenobi is could disarm Grievous in such a manner, why couldn't Anakin?
He withstands all of this in only few seconds without any significant consequences,against Ventress (the assassin that's stealmate to Anakin Skywalker(before ROTJ)) and Durge one of the most durable and hardest to kill beings in the Galaxy, in the same time.
Asajj has never stalemated Anakin Skywalker. Not even padawan Skywalker, whom disarmed her quickly during their first duel on Yavin 4.
Grievous withstands being thrown through the wall,out of the object with amazing amount of force by Darth Maul :
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228566-sod+durability.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228567-sod+durability2.png
He wasn't thrown through the wall, he was thrown off a cliff and then came back. Not exactly an unheard off feat.
Grievous also withstands being at the center of an explosion which engulfed and devastated an underground city :
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228570-tanks+explosionnn.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228571-tanks+explosionnn2.png
Yes that's quite impressive. But Anakin has tanked nearby explosions as well(albeit not of the same scale).
Grievous survives, with damage, having a vehicle thrown into him by Mace Windu telekinetically,additionaly using Force ability Shatterpoint with amazing force :
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228578-winducrush.png
Mace wasn't using Shatterpoint, just telekinesis. And Grievous was still harmed greatly by that, whereas Anakin(while a padawan) was slammed by a log, then slammed on a tree, then got back up as if it was nothing:
90% of these things Anakin couldn't possibly survive,or if he survives,consequences done to his body would be catastrophic ! Say what you want,there is no doubt that General Grievous stomps in terms of his Armor/tools and durability.
Anakin isn't as durable as Grievous, I agree, but that ultimately doesn't mean much. Neither is going to get back up after a lethal hit is scored on them. It would only take one fatal wound on either of them to kill one another really. Grievous is still volnurable to Anakin's lightsaber, as if Anakin to Grievous's. This is least relevant category, ultimately.
Please should i continue ? I doubt that Anakin could do any of these,except maybe kill clones and mandalorians in durasteel with his bare hands. Say what you want,there is no doubt that General Grievous gets significant advantage in terms of strenght.
I do not doubt Grievous has the edge here, but Anakin is hardly outclassed, if at all. How about Anakin preasuring Dooku with his strength, whereas Grievous failed?
Let's also not forget that Anakin has preasured Kenobi to a greater degree than Grievous. I've already posted the quote above that says how a hindered Anakin bent Kenobi's bones and forearms. So compare Kenobi responding and warding of Grievous's assault to this:
Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into a wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am sick of your lectures!" Dark power bore down with his grip. Obi-Wan felt his bones and forearms bending.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
Or how about when Grievous failed to physically overwhelm Ventress, whereas Anakin dominated her?
https://youtu.be/ZF97aJO7MuM?t=47
https://youtu.be/3VB_vjVxcic?t=307
All the evidence is right there. While Grievous is stronger than Anakin, Anakin uses his strength better in lightsaber combat.
Speed isn't really going to be hard to cover. Anakin is, based on feats, faster. Dooku had no problem dodging around Grievous's attacks and deflecting his 12 strikes per second:
Whereas when Dooku dueled Anakin, it was described that Anakin was all over him and that Dooku could barely keep up and block all the incoming attacks.
Skywalker was all over him. The shinning blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defenses with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserves of his reserves of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half,
Source: Revenge of the Sith
Yes Wollf,i agree that Anakin held his own better against Dooku,but we are talking about both prime Grievous ROTS and prime Anakin ROTS please,the footage that you provided us with shows Dooku training Grievous,which means that Grievous just got into his cybernetic body,he just started learning features and possibilities of his body. It's same thing as judging Darth Vader right after ROTS when he got into his new armor.Don't forget that please,he,just like Vader,just got into his armor.
This is false. This was Grievous a few days before he was tasked with kidnapping the Chancellor, therefore this was near the end of the war when Grievous did get use to his cybernetics. They even discuss this plan in the video:
Sidious: Now is the time to strike. Now is the time to launch our final operation. Is everything ready for your special mission?
Therefore, Anakin did perform better against Dooku in terms of both combat skill and combat speed. Therefore, he is faster than Grievous. As for the whole 12 strikes per second and dirty trick arguments, here's something to disprove them - Anakin's reflexes. Just a few examples:
Anakin reacts to lighting and dodges it while at the same time driving a speeder:
Anakin's speeder shrieked through the rain, dodging forked bolts of lightning that shot up from towers into the clouds, slicing across traffic lanes, screaming past spacescrapers so fast that his shock-wake cracked windows as he passed.
Revenge of the Sith
Anakin reacts to missiles in time to cut them down:
Anakin's reflexes would be quite enough to deflect anything Grievous throws at him, and his combat speed exceeds even that of Dooku, whom dodged Grievous's blows casually.
Comparing them side-by-side, Anakin has the clear advantage.
I have already compared their duels with Dooku. Grievous could, at best, just press Dooku in spars:
Grievous had been a delight to train, as well. No need to coax him to release his anger and rage, as Dooku had been forced to do during the training of his so-called Dark Jedi disciples. The Geonosians had arranged for Grievous to be nothing but anger and rage. And as to the general's combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.
Source: Labyrinth of Evil
But ultimately, that's all he could do. He can just press Dooku. Anakin has, however, fought as an equal or near-equal to Dooku multiple times already. During their final duel, the two have fought evenly until Anakin got enraged and killed him:
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. He lifted his blade, and beckoned.
Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.
He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long. Skywalker was a natural.
There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it. This boy had the gift of fury.
And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.
This is the death of Count Dooku:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.
The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.
Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.
Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.
It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero.
But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.
Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.
When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.
When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.
His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win.
He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.
He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.
And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.
Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat.
Source: Revenge of the Sith novel
And now a comparison between their duels with Kenobi.
When Grievous duels Kenobi, the two fight evenly in the beginning, but Kenobi soon seizes the advantage:
By 01:40 seconds, Grievous was missing two arms and forced to flee.
Now here's a mentally and emotionally hindered Anakin fighting Kenobi:
Kenobi ends up winning. But the fight was much longer, more brutal, more even, and this wasn't even Anakin at full power. Anakin when capable of going all out is enough to defeat Kenobi, let alone General Grievous.
Once again, through power scaling and logical inference, Anakin is the superior duelist.
Grievous is so FAST he menaged to dodge and avoid not only missiles and blasters as you've shown up above,but telekinesis such as force blast by jedi MASTERS Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shak Ti ! Which even makes me think if Anakin is faster than Grievous in terms of,well,anything ?
Once again, false. And writing it in all caps doesn't help, either. Mundi was exhausted and thus couldn't move as fast as he used to, and Shaak Ti has one-shotted Grievous with telekinesis once already:
Shaak Ti is neither as fast or powerful in the Force as Anakin. So if she can subdue Grievous with the Force, so could Anakin.
For another comparison, here's Dooku one-shotting Grievous:
And here's what Anakin can do to Dooku when he goes all out:
General Grievous also stealmated and/or bested the following force users :
-Obi Wan Kenobi (stealmated only because of his usage of Soresu form)
-Ki-ADI-Mundi (bested)
-Ahsoka Tano (bested)
-Shak Ti (bested)
-Darth Maul (stealmated)
-Adi Galia (bested)
-Foul Moudama (bested)
-Rorn Corrob (bested)
-Count Dooku (friendly stealmated)
-Asajj Ventres (bested)
And many,many more.
He never stalemated Count Dooku. And him besting fodder Jedi or combatants inferior to Anakin solidly doesn't mean he can best Anakin.
Now,you may say to me : ''But Grievous got killed by Kenobi,but Grievous got fooled and stealmated by Maul,while Anakin was much more powerful and had much more potential than either Kenobi or Maul''
And i will answer to you '' Yes,but everything depends of the characters,as i said before,if you attack Grievous,you will do nothing but a favour to him,Grievous is not an duelst who you can win by attacking him,and outmanuvering him with your strenght or speed,as he already has all of that in nearly perfect level (of course except if we are talking about Yoda,Sidious or GM Luke Skywalker who're faster than Grievous,but we are not,we are talking about Anakin Skywalker who's leagues below them),Grievous is a character who you're supposed to outsmart,play defensive and then outsmart,just like Kenobi did.But Anakin Skywalker isn't that type knowing him and his combat style,he would simply try to outmaneuver Grievous with his attacks (which would mostly focuse on strenght),when he sees that his ways are not working or when/if Grievous provocates him somehow,Anakin would just simply rush on Grievous like a mad kid,but i highly doubt that he'd be able to hold his own against Grievous's offenses,or even if Anakin menages to break his defenses,he won't really be able to do much,as Grievous's armor is incredibly powerful and his organs well protected as i stated up above,and that's how Anakin will get himself killed.
The majority of this was a baseless claim and is contradictory. First you say Maul stalemated Grievous, then you say you need to outsmart and play defensive to beat Grievous. But Maul, while smart, is not a defensive fighter. He rushed towards Grievous with his attack and still stalemated him. Kenobi deflected all of Grievous's attacks and stalemated/bested him. Anakin's tactics(those of Djem So) are tactics based entirely on combining attack and defense. Therefore, Anakin's tactics are a combination of Kenobi's and Maul's(whom have stalemated Grievous). And like I said, one swoop that cuts Grievous in half or decapitates him is enough, therefore is Anakin breaks his defenses it's all over. And you've also completely disregarded Force powers, with which Anakin can one-shot Grievous.
Now then, for my personal verdict, it's obvious who'd win. Anakin had more success against the same enemies, has telekinesis powerful enough to one-shot Grievous, has greater combat speed and applies strength better in combat. And that's all he really needs.
I said everything what i had to say,now Wollf,make your last post,say what you have to say in your defense,and defense of your character and then call for proffesionals to state their opinions and decided the winner.
Only after one post? OK then. I'll call in the experts to judge and vote this contest. It was fun, though. I wish you luck.
Log in to comment