Rules:
Morals off, but no bloodlust. That means no full power starheart.
Post-crisis pre-new 52
No prep
Each character has only basic knowledge of their opponents
Battlefield:
CAV: Alan Scott(highaccuser) vs Captain Marvel(Frozen)
@reaverlation said:
Hmmm...Cool
@frozen you using Batson?
Yes. I'll provide the pictures:
VS
Oh yeah I'm gonna enjoy this
@frozen: Alright let's start. Sorry if the scans are choppy, I'm not good at posting them.
Alan scott is the first and most powerful GL. His power originates from the starheart, which is a collection of magical energy gathered by the guardians. As his power is completely different, Alan is more powerful than all the other green lanterns. Kyle Rayner has been amazed by the things he could do.
Initally, Alan used a ring like all other GL's, but soon grew not to need it. After so many years of using it, he became made out of pure willpower. Here's Mr. terrific explaining how alan's powers work now:
Here are some feats:
Here he beats obsidian. Obsidian had just soloed and possessed the JSA, including doctor fate, hourman one million and jay garrick.
This is insanely impressive, as obsidian covered the entire planet in shadows and left the JSA helpless.
Here he goes toe-to-toe with mordru, a guy who regularly solos the JSA. Only NABU was able to do this good against mordru.
Here he schools Kyle rayner.
Basically, his power level is uber. My stratagy is fairly simple. First alan does this:
He can restrain black adam. Captain marvel shouldn't be hard to hold.
Then he ages him to death
I know captain marvel survived into DC one million, but he was clearly old. He ages, and alan can use that to kill him.
Your move.
@highaccuser: Okay. Good post. But Black Adam isn't Captain Marvel. Adam is more hot-headed while Marvel is faster, has greater endurance and is much smarter. In addition, their power-sets differ. My response is that Billy possesses the speed, strength and intelligence to take the win - with Starheart not being at full power, Billy will be able to counter it. He'll be more inclined to use his intellect against the likes of Alan as he is aware what Alan is capable of as Marvel was a member of the JSA (see JSA and JLA: Virture and Vice).
Billy's strength is equal to Superman's. They have always been characterized like that and it simply can not be ignored. His strength is not just confined to that of Hercules as over time, his strength has been written to be superior. Either he is genuinely written to be stronger or he is amplifying his strength with The Power of Zeus - you decide.
Billy arm-wrestles Superman and only loses because Mary and Freddy empower themselves; thus splitting their power by a 1/3. Prior to that they were evenly matched.
Gallery
Years later they had a rematch and were equal:
In Superman #102, Superman sees Billy as Cyborg Superman and Billy sees Superman as Black Adam. Hence they fight, neither of them hold back but they are matched and Superman's parents comment that it would take the entire JLA to break them up.
Gallery
However, his strength is not just restricted to 'matching Superman' (though they are good combatshowings) - he helped Superman and others move The Moon in JLA: The Titans. The Moon weighs 81 billion tonnes and has a density of 3.346 g/cm3. Billy's strength is equal to Superman's, and would be pushing a similar amount. Despite the other characters helping, he is still pushing in the excess of millions of tonnes and most likely into the billions.
Gallery
It should also be noted that he didn't stay at that strength level. Moving into the millennium, writers amplified the strength levels of all the characters seen moving The Moon. In JLA #74 - Superman, Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman move 1/3 of The Earth.
To which several years later, he matched Superman again in the Public Enemies story arc.
Gallery
In addition, in Superman #216 (Lightning Strikes) he somewhat shrugged off Superman's punch. Superman punched Billy to Hawaii. He was Eclipso possessed and Billy was unwilling to fight a possessed Superman.
In regards to DC One Million, an older Billy appeared in Flash 1,000,000 and he was not old and weak. It was heavily implied that he had become the Wizard or taken his power (though he did not resemble the Lord Marvel version seen in later years, Mark Waid the writer clearly did not have that in mind).
Here, the older Billy from the One Million storyline is seen speed-blitzing attackers alongside Wally West.
Initially, Wally can not even perceive him.
The next few panels show him in motion, clearly he is not weak.
This version of Captain Marvel was actually at the Rock of Eternity. Black Adam is genuinely just an ancient character. New-52 Shazam beat him by exposing his age, or something of the sort.
But moving on, in Flash #162 he races alongside Wally at lightspeed.
Gallery
In Flash #107, he zooms away from Wally (and Wally is astounded at his speed).
The next panel shows Wally wandering whether Billy has a connection to the speed force.
I have some more feats to use, but I shall wait for you response.
@frozen: I'm aware cap is supermans equal, but I doubt it matters against a foe of alans level. He was capable of sealing a multiversal rift.
He could also contain the god-like gog. I'm sure you know what gog can do as you're the go-to person for KC superman.
And Etrigan:
For the record I never said captain marvel one million was weak, just that he had clearly aged. Aging him to death isn't all I can do.
Alan can also use time manipulation to speed himself up. Considering he made millenia take minutes he could easily speedblitz marvel.
Here he easily keeps up with jay garrick, who is faster than billy. They talk while doing this, so he can clearly think at the speeds he was moving.
Alan has much more than enough offensive output to put down marvel as well.
Here he matches the team buster gog, who outmuscled KC superman.
He can harm the team buster extant who tanked everything the JSA threw at him.
Here he does serious damage to mordru. Mordru is an insanely powerful magician. He was able to beat an amped shazam while in a weak state as well as a fifth dimensional imp, and alan causes him serious harm. Not to mention he had the powers of nabu and arion here, and alan is STILL holding back.
Here he knocks around ultra humanite while he had the powers of a fifth dimesional imp.
Captian marvel is also definently not killing atom. Ultra humanite with the power of a fifth dimensional imp doubted he could be killed.
Understand, alan isn't physical. He's made of pure willpower. He easily made himself paralyzed and reversed the paralysis when he didn't need it. Alan survived Mordru ripping out his heart.
He can also blind billy like he did to etrigan.
So to summarize, Alan can restrain captain marvel, surpass him in speed, and has the offensive output to put him down.
@highaccuser: I don't think so. I've read comics with Alan to see that he isn't consistently at those levels, likewise sealing 'multiversal' rifts seems a stretch. Considering I firmly agreed not to use feats like this for Captain Marvel (against PC Superman and PC Alan Scott):
Or:
Considering PC Captain Marvel is technically the Post-Crisis version.
@highaccuser: My turn.
you're the go to person for KC Superman
Yes, I am. I know that KC Superman is exceptionally powerful as I am knowledgeable on the character. I also know that KC Superman struggled with KC Captain Marvel. While KC Captain Marvel is very powerful, he's still below pre-crisis Captain Marvel.
KC Captain Marvel (Earth 22 Captain Marvel) speed blitzes KC Superman.
Kingdom Come #3:
In the next issue, after a brief struggle - he knocks KC Superman off his feet.
And then proceeds to spam magical lightning (dodging his own lightning to hit KC Superman).
Though he musters up the strength to grab Billy so that his own lightning transforms him, the point still remains.
Scott's powers are more adept to combat the JSA-buster Gog than KC Superman's.
Taking on the JSA isn't something that KC Superman or WW3 Black Adam can't do, because in KC Superman's encounter with the JSA, that included Alan himself. He still fought them off with his gravity increased 100 fold.
WW3 Black Adam (who is less powerful than Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel) can do similar:
However, I'm probably more knowledgeable on Kal L (the Earth 2 Superman) than I am KC Superman. Kal L is more powerful than KC Superman if we take his pre-crisis showings and discard his Infinite Crisis appearance and his very early stories and (to which he was only capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound and moving faster than a bullet).
Kal L is the equal to the pre-crisis Earth One Superman in strength (the Silver Age/Bronze Age Superman). They fight in Justice League of America #74 (1969) and stalemate. They fight to the point where they literally collapse at the same time, due to exhaustion. Neither was holding back.
Gallery
They fight until they literally collapse. While fighting, Kal El admits that Kal L is his equal in strength.
This notion was re-enforced in Superman Family #187 (1978) - to which Kal El again admits Kal L is his equal.
As you know, the Earth One Superman's power is self-explanatory (as he has easily pulled chains of planets and tossed them). But it's not like Kal L does not have feats of his own.
Pushes a planet:
Easily at time tearing speeds:
Casually strolls through the time barrier:
Kal L and the All Star Squadron fought Captain Marvel (Hitler controlled) in All Star Squadron #36 - I would say his showing against the JSA (with Superman and Wonder Woman included) is more impressive.
He battles Kal L and then defeats him. No strings attached, he literally sends him tumbling with a punch.
^ Beaten down.
He knocks Alan back and Alan comments on his power, he then blitzes away (including Wonder Woman's plane).
Captain Marvel is an easy planet mover - without using star moving feats, he is planetary. Even Captain Marvel Jr (whom shares power with Captain Marvel) has moved The Earth.
Here he easily keeps up with jay garrick, who is faster than billy. They talk while doing this, so he can clearly think at the speeds he was moving.
Post-Crisis Captain Marvel did the same with the much faster Wally West. Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel has done the same in flight speed (which is faster).
Captian marvel is also definently not killing atom. Ultra humanite with the power of a fifth dimensional imp doubted he could be killed.
Post-Crisis Captain Marvel ran through a firestorm which was generated by 5th dimensional magic...
Alan can also use time manipulation to speed himself up. Considering he made millenia take minutes he could easily speedblitz marvel.
I just do not see that as practical or realistic. That's very far-fetched and despite having morals off, it's unlikely he'll attempt such. But just to let you know - Pre Crisis Captain Marvel has flown to the end of his Universe.
I'll wait until your response to post PC Captain Marvel speed feats.
@frozen: Not sure I want to go against someone primes level, but I might as well try.
Yes, I am. I know that KC Superman is exceptionally powerful as I am knowledgeable on the character. I also know that KC Superman struggled with KC Captain Marvel. While KC Captain Marvel is very powerful, he's still below pre-crisis Captain Marvel.
Why exactly do you think KC Cap is weaker than SA cap?
Scott's powers are more adept to combat the JSA-buster Gog than KC Superman's.
Explain. I read the whole storyline and saw nothing to indicate this. It seemed to me like they faired equally well.
Only infinity man had matched Gog before alan did.
This is how a recall the KC superman VS Gog fight ending.
Taking on the JSA isn't something that KC Superman or WW3 Black Adam can't do, because in KC Superman's encounter with the JSA, that included Alan himself. He still fought them off with his gravity increased 100 fold.
The JSA wanted to restrain him, not hurt him. Alan has hurt FAR more powerful enemies than KC superman.
WW3 Black Adam (who is less powerful than Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel) can do similar:
Thank you for posting the part where he one-shots a kryptonian. There are three factors to that whole incident.
1. BA was bloodlusted, the JSA was not.
2. Alan wasn't nearly as determined as he was when he pulled off his high end feats.
3. Geoff Johns wrote that, and whenever bloodlusted Black Adam is written by him he's much more powerful than he should be. WWIII anyone?
^ Beaten down.
Thank you for showing the bit with Alan.
Alan was far less powerful during the silver age, and his constructs could breifly hold off cap and he could clearly hurt him. Not to mention his weaker silver age form could beat the more powerful SA Hal Jordon easily. That shows how big the gap between Hal and Alan is.
He knocks Alan back and Alan comments on his power, he then blitzes away (including Wonder Woman's plane).
Captain Marvel is an easy planet mover - without using star moving feats, he is planetary. Even Captain Marvel Jr (whom shares power with Captain Marvel) has moved The Earth.
That's all good and well, but alan restrained Gog who was FAR more powerful than Billy is with simple planet moving.
Post-Crisis Captain Marvel did the same with the much faster Wally West. Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel has done the same in flight speed (which is faster).
1. Did they actually speak while doing so? Because Superman has kept up with flash but couldn't match his perceptions with his speed. Unless they were talking then it's just a travel feat.
Post-Crisis Captain Marvel ran through a firestorm which was generated by 5th dimensional magic...
He still can't kill someone made of pure energy like Alan.
Running through an indirect fiestorm is all good, but Alan has seriously harmed skyfather+ level foes while holding back. I still think alan can put down billy hard.
I just do not see that as practical or realistic. That's very far-fetched and despite having morals off, it's unlikely he'll attempt such. But just to let you know - Pre Crisis Captain Marvel has flown to the end of his Universe.
Maybe, but it's an option. He certainly won't be aging.
Alan is rarely out of character so it's hard to judge what he would do. The only time he's been out of character is during brightest day, but...you know.
I'll wait until your response to post PC Captain Marvel speed feats.
Not sure I want to go against someone primes level, but I might as well try
Why not? That's the benchmark you're seemingly putting Scott at. Prime is around KC Superman's level.
Why exactly do you think KC Cap is weaker than SA cap?
While KC Captain Marvel is undoubtedly formidable and certainly above Post-Crisis Captain Marvel or Superman, he isn't at Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel's level. Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel has better showings against the Pre-Crisis Kal El and Pre-Crisis Kal L (both of which are more powerful than the standard Post-Crisis Superman) and his feats are more concrete.
Explain. I read the whole storyline and saw nothing to indicate this. It seemed to me like they faired equally well.
Because it's clear from KC Superman's showing against the JSA with Alan included? Alan struggled to contain KC Superman and struggled against WW3 Black Adam, both of which operate on the standard powers of strength, speed and flight - they just differ to the degree of power in those areas.
KC Superman already tanked a blast from Gog unscathed.
This is how a recall the KC superman VS Gog fight ending
See the scan above.
The JSA wanted to restrain him, not hurt him. Alan has hurt FAR more powerful enemies than KC superman.
They still couldn't restrain him with KC Superman being at the disadvantage of his gravity being made stronger. All Alan had to do was use the necessary amount of force required to restrain him but he couldn't. Neither could the rest of the JSA which indicates his power-levels.
BA was bloodlusted, the JSA was not.
Irrelevant. Power Girl holds back less than other kryptonians do - so does Kal L (the Earth Two Superman). The story Superman: Infinite Crisis demonstrates how the characters from Earth Two hold back less.
2. Alan wasn't nearly as determined as he was when he pulled off his high end feats.
We could use that logic for nearly every comicbook character.
3. Geoff Johns wrote that, and whenever bloodlusted Black Adam is written by him he's much more powerful than he should be. WWIII anyone?
Johns also wrote Ultraman to one-shot him Forever Evil. He doesn't have any clear bias for the character.
Thank you for showing the bit with Alan.
Alan was far less powerful during the silver age, and his constructs could breifly hold off cap and he could clearly hurt him. Not to mention his weaker silver age form could beat the more powerful SA Hal Jordon easily. That shows how big the gap between Hal and Alan is.
Except the fact that Captain Marvel had no problem in blitzing away. You have to factor in that he had just fought the Pre-Crisis Kal L (who is much more powerful in the Bronze Age). While Captain Marvel did knock Kal L out, he also endured several hard placed punches from a kryptonian at planetary + level. Factoring that in and the fact that he blitzed away rather easily (including from Wonder Woman's plane), I'd say he made an exceptionally impressive account for himself.
That's all good and well, but alan restrained Gog who was FAR more powerful than Billy is with simple planet moving.
Gog is not more powerful than Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel. At all. That contrast is more in tune with the Post-Crisis Captain Marvel, not the Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel. Aside from the showing that beat Kal L (a planetary being), he has also matched Kal El. Kal El is beyond 'simple' planet moving (and so is Kal L to be fair). Also, Captain Marvel Jr didn't just move The Earth, he practically threw it - The Sun's gravitational force didn't even slow it down.
A severely weakened Captain Marvel (revealed to be in that story) went toe-to-toe with the Pre-Crisis Superman in All New Collector's Edition #58
1. Did they actually speak while doing so? Because Superman has kept up with flash but couldn't match his perceptions with his speed. Unless they were talking then it's just a travel feat.
To which instance are you referring to? Pre-Crisis or Post-Crisis? The Post-Crisis Captain Marvel was talking to Flash, who was moving at light-speed.
My point above is re-enforced by a statement made by Swamp Thing in Swamp Thing #79:
Running through an indirect fiestorm is all good, but Alan has seriously harmed skyfather+ level foes while holding back. I still think alan can put down billy hard.
He doesn't need to kill him, only knock him out. It also depends on what you mean by ''skyfather'' - different versions of Doomsday can take on skyfathers and those skyfathers would actually fall below the Pre-Crisis Superman or Captain Marvel. I thought you also stated that full power Starheart was a 'skyfather'?
Maybe, but it's an option. He certainly won't be aging.
Alan is rarely out of character so it's hard to judge what he would do.
An unlikely one. We already know that Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel not holding back can tap into the upper limits of his strength and speed, we are given clear indication of how he operates.
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This is actually a travelspeed feat - but it should be noted because it signifies one's power level.
The Marvel Family #61
If he is really going to use time manipulation Zoom style then Cap's speed above should be noted.
Captain Marvel has the tendency to use flight-speed to fight airborn or blitz into people with his speed, as seen in his fight against Kal L, he fights airborn. He also blitzes away from the JSA using his flightspeed, to which he is extremely effective at. Most Pre-Crisis characters did not vibrate their limbs as the Post-Crisis versions do, however they still utilized speed.
PC Captain Marvel's speed allowed him to blitz through planets, to which is also a durability feat - largely similar to Superman Prime's feat, alebit faster.
And of course, blitzing away from the JSA.
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