Castiel vs Metatron vs Lucifer vs Michael

@justthatkid: *rubs forehead* Son, I don't think you have ever seen logic.

Michael is the one who cast Lucifer into hell. Michael defeated Lucifer already.

Too cryptic for you? Do you want a clip where Lucifer out right states that Michael beat him? Well, even if you don't want it, here you go:

Michael has beaten Lucifer before. There is nothing to suggest it is going to end differently. Hell, Lucifer never gives indication that it will end differently.

I was a son. A brother, like you, a younger brother, and I had an older brother who I loved. Idolized, in fact. And one day I went to him, and I begged him to stand with me. And Michael... Michael turned on me. Called me a freak, a monster. And then he beat me down, all because I was different. Because I had a mind of my own. Tell me something Sam, any of this sound familiar? Anyway, you'll have to excuse me, midnight is calling, and I have a ritual to finish. Don't go anywhere. Not that you could if you would.

@wut: Oh, well...never mind. ^^^

@justthatkid: What in the nine hells are you talking about now?

The first video is Dean and Lucifer. Not Michael and Lucifer. Lucifer was explaining to Deanwhat happened. This is when Dean went to the future. When Michael and Lucifer are about to face each other, Dean arrives last.

Dean has never been possessed by anything in the entire series.

In the second video, you couple him getting 'beaten down' with him being thrown out by the same person... and guess what you get? The stories in the bible, which Bobby pointed out in that season as well, are true. Michael defeated the rebelling Lucifer (I can get the Video of lucifer talking to Cas where he says he rebelled, thus fought) and cast him from heaven.

But you know what I want to see? All that evidence of yours that doesn't seem to exist. Next time you post, it better have evidence with it. The evidence had better be a clip from Supernatural which gives you reason to believe Lucifer could take Michael otherwise don't bother posting.

@justthatkid: Both have the same key element. God had Michael cast him out. Michael beat him down and threw him out. In both Michael defeats Lucifer. Michael has beaten Lucifer before. There is not a single instance in Season 5 that alludes to Lucifer defeating Michael.

You are simply refusing to see reason and refusing to listen.

What suggest Michael > Lucifer? The fact that he has already beaten lucifer before! The fact that everyone is waiting for Michael to kill Lucifer? The fact that Lucifer never talks about winning?

You are digging your heels into the ground and refusing to provide evidence for a stance that does not exist. I do not care if you want them to be equal, the fact is they are not which is made painfully clear.

The fact that both GodCas and Metatron did not want Michael (Never mentioned Lucifer) out of the box alludes to Michael being the strongest of the Angels.

Again, there is a lot of evidence pointing to Michael being the mightiest of the Archangels.

He is the oldest, the first of the Archangels. He defeated Lucifer before. Everyone, especially himself, knows he is going to win. GodCas and Metatron both did not want an angry Michael released from the prison in hell.

So again, provide evidence or consent.

What ?

@justthatkid: ... What? Do you have any proof that Michael and Lucifer's power has changed from then to now?

If not? Guess what. It is the same until proven otherwise. Which means.... give that drum rolllllll

Michael is still > Lucifer.

@justthatkid: Their fight was interrupted before it could even begin. Again. And for the final time. It is YOUR job to prove they are equal. It is YOUR job to find evidence to support your statements. It is YOUR job to prove that Lucifer got stronger after losing to Michael to make them equal.

It is NOT my job to do that for you. It is MY job to prove Michael is stronger. I have evidence proving it. You do not.

So, either find your evidence, or stop posting here and wasting my time.

@justthatkid: Ask you for evidence. You refuse to give evidence. You are now trolling at this point. I am done with you.

I haven't seen either for a couple seasons and what I did see of Lucifer didn't show him being above Michael since he was forced into a hole

@justthatkid: Find the clip that says they are fighting it out. The only time it talks about them together is that they are torturing Sam's soul... together. It never says they are fighting each other in the pit. Stop making stuff up.

Evidence. Provide it.

@justthatkid: All that... and no evidence.

Evidence... is such a lovely thing. Something I have been missing from you. Something I would love to see.

You claim they are fighting in the pit. You haven't provided evidence to support this.

Again. Evidence.

@justthatkid: Past statements? You mean statements referring to the only time they have fought when the character that lost admits to having lost in two difference cases?

You mean referencing the only time they have fought and using it as evidence especially considering there is nothing to suggest their powers have grown or lessened over the ages?

No. What I am doing is called, "Logical approach," What you are doing is, "Digging head in sand."

"We only take current characters."

Prove their powers have changed. Nothing suggest it has. Thus there is no reason not to look at their past encounters.

"They are still fighting it out in the pits."

No. That was never stated. Until you can find evidence to support this. I don't want to see you try and reference it.

You have no evidence. I have evidence. You are trying to make that evidence invalid. You are failing and have not brought up a single reasonable reason in which we can discard past evidence besides what breaks down to 'you not liking it'.

Again. Provide evidence or go away. If you reply again without evidence. I will report you for trolling.

Lucifer - "We're going to kill each other, and for what? One of Dad's tests."

Michael - "I have to kill you"
Lucifer - "If that's the way it has to be. Then I'd like to see you try."


All your evidence was based on the assumption Lucifer was saying Michael was stronger. Here he specifically states they'd kill each other; and implies he can stop Michael from killing him. So your evidence is null and void.

@rpottage: 'We are going to kill each other'. One line before a fight. You are trying to cast aside all other evidence for that?

When two brothers are about to fight to the death, yes, saying 'we are going to kill each other' is something that fits the scenario as Lucifer never wanted to fight Michael and tried to get him to join.

This does not make them equal since Michael has emerged victorious in the only engagement they have fought.

Dean says things along the lines of 'I'd like to see you try' to beings far more powerful then he all the time. It does not, nor has it ever, made him their equal.

I am glad that someone provided some kind of evidence for the other side.

@justthatkid: ... If you could see the difference, you wouldn't be here right now.

Your side, which amusingly, you claim as the evidence side has yet to provide evidence. Your entire idea of Michael = Lucifer is an assumption without a single strap of evidence unless you take Lucifer's line, but funny enough, taken into context... no.

"We are going to kill each other... for what? Dad?" Yea. That does not sound like a mutual KO. That sounds like an attempt to reason with his brother so they don't have to fight.

You, yourself, have not provided a single scrap of evidence. Your entire debate boils down to saying, "Na Uh!" Over and over again.

@justthatkid: When did I ever say Lucifer was afraid of fighting Michael? He doesn't want to fight Michael. Michael does not want to fight Lucifer. Michael talks about that when he speaks to dean in the past that he wants to kill Lucifer no more then Dean would want to kill Sam.

Again, 'come and try' is not a 'I can't be beaten by you'. It is a defiant 'come at me bro'. It in no way states equality or superiority. The statements I took into evidence are those of Lucifer admitting he was defeated by Michael. If you cannot see the difference it is because you refuse to.

One sentence is being warped to try and fit your purpose. One is referencing a past fight in which Lucifer was defeated and stands on its own.

Once again, winner in the pit? It has NEVER said they were fighting inside the pit. The fact that numerous other characters have said they are using Sam's soul for fun implies they are not fighting each other.

Cas or Michael

@justthatkid: I will wait for your clip once you get to your pc.

@justthatkid: If it directly states they were/are fighting then I would agree that the final decision should be halted until/if it ever says who came out on the top, but I would still give Michael the edge in any debate thread.

nothing says bonding time betwen brothers as tourturing a poor innocent soul in hell

@shadowpro: I thought it was odd that Michael would do that too. Not that he is a 'compassionate' being, but he never struck me as a sadist. More of a 'Doesn't kill/harm humans for fun but doesn't go out of his way to avoid hurting them' kind of person. But that is what they said they were doing to Sam and Adam.

@wut: Why is Adam there and why torture him too ?

@kgb725: Because Michael was in control of Adam's body when he fell into the pit. Both Sam and Adam's souls were in there with Michael and Lucifer. Death makes Dean choose which one he saves. He picks Sam.

As for torturing him? No idea. I am not even sure they did torture him. They did to Sam though.

@wut: Dang I just realized I thought of the wrong adam

how about that evidence lol

michael>lucifer it has been implied so blatantly in the show, and since we will never actually be shown a victor between them, we go with what has been stated by the characters

With the tablets power, Metatron stomps!...without them, Michael stomps!...either Michael or Metatron could beat the other 3 together at the same time.

@justthatkid: It is no problem. Thanks for looking. A lot of people wouldn't have bothered to put the effort in as I know how much of a pain it is to search google/youtube to try and find the clips or even a site to find pages of dialogue.

I don't think it is that strange that Sam was being tortured. Michael has never shown to be a compassionate person. He has a strong sense of duty and honor, but I don't think he would stop Lucifer from torturing Sam's soul, but I agree in that it makes no sense for Michael to torture Sam as he has never been shown to be a sadist.

Michael protecting Adam does seem to make sense. I hope he is otherwise Sam and Dean have chosen to forget that their little brother is... well... not in great shape.

Michael > Castiel > Lucifer > Metatron.

Jmarshmallow

@bat_girl_cc:

I actually see cas stomping on mike, he was capale of breaking the binding spell not even death could break

that puts him somewhere near death which is more powerfull than the brothers

yeah those bastards, looks like lucy finaly got him to see the fun in that like "See what this fucking humans do? Now is not one, but the two of us who are caged."

@shadowpro: As it was a spell to bind death... I don't think that is really fair. What would be the point in a binding spell if the thing it was designed to bind could break it?