In the show, Cas seemed to take a dramatic turn in strength after his ressurection in the fifth season at the beginning so it got me wondering, could he have beaten alistair then?
In the show, Cas seemed to take a dramatic turn in strength after his ressurection in the fifth season at the beginning so it got me wondering, could he have beaten alistair then?
season 5 Castiel
Alistair
battle in abandoned warehouse
Nobody has really proved that Cas was any stronger outside of speculation. Alastair knew a spell that could separate an angle from their vessel. I'm going with Alastair still being able to do this considering Cas didn't seem to be any more powerful.
@LordOfAllHumans: he was fighting other angels with ease, having only been strong enough to fight one (uriel) in the first season. even his former superior, zachariah didnt dare challenge him, nor did Anna
@LordOfAllHumans: he was fighting other angels with ease, having only been strong enough to fight one (uriel) in the first season. even his former superior, zachariah didnt dare challenge him, nor did Anna
Zach didn't challenge him because he claimed that God brought him back that was no show of power Zach was afraid because he didn't know if God was involved or not. Anna was not afraid of him at all. He was fighting angels with ease right before he used the angel banishing sigil.
@LordOfAllHumans: if that was true, she would have fought him instead of standing idly, or running when he threatened to kill her
So now an angel that is fallen and not plugged into Heaven proves that he was more powerful? No angel from Heaven was afraid at all. He thought his resurrection meant he would be the next sheriff in town and Raphael showed us he was not that powerful. Angels can kill each other and he was back on the side of Heaven when he and Anna met again before his resurrection.
@LordOfAllHumans: technically it doesnt always have to be power, just the will. in the 4th season he was very held back because of his confusion throughout the season. in the 5th season he became more... outward so to speak or something like that, forgot the word :P lol anyway about raphael, what difference does that make? he was an archangel, as strong as alistair was, it wouldnt take an archangel to kill him, and Raphael was able to smite angels easily. if anything it should be noted that Cas actually took good shots from the archangel but whatever on that
What? Raphael used the same attack that Cas used to take out monsters and his ass was kicked. Before Anna was killed there was nothing to suggest Cas could beat her or it would not have taken Michael to kill to her. What didi he do post resurrection to show he was more powerful than any other angel?
@LordOfAllHumans: if she was powerful enough to kill Cas and the winchesters, she would have. she would not have backed down from him when he threatened to kill her, because he would. michael only intervined because cas was too weak to step into the fight because of the time travel.
@LordOfAllHumans: if she was powerful enough to kill Cas and the winchesters, she would have. she would not have backed down from him when he threatened to kill her, because he would. michael only intervined because cas was too weak to step into the fight because of the time travel.
How did she go back in time if she was not backed? Cas didn't even believe she escaped Heaven without help, and that was never answered. Like I said what did he do to prove he was more powerful after he came back?
@LordOfAllHumans: remember, she was in pain when time traveling too, she was found unconscious on a car. michael wouldnt have killed her if she was backed by heaven. he killed several angels alone, two at once
@LordOfAllHumans: remember, she was in pain when time traveling too, she was found unconscious on a car. michael wouldnt have killed her if she was backed by heaven. he killed several angels alone, two at once
she wasn't unconscious she had a nose bleed and was dazed, he however was not able to do anything.
@LordOfAllHumans: thats because he had two passengers, he even said that he could have gone alone to take care of her
then why risk it? you still have not proved he got more power from being resurrected. If God brought him back more powerful, why not bring him back with the power to deal with Rahpael? He was still afraid of the ring of holy fire and did not dare cross is until Crowely put the fire out. If God made him better and above all but archangels why did that which can bind angels keep him bound?
In the show, Cas seemed to take a dramatic turn in strength after his ressurection in the fifth season at the beginning so it got me wondering, could he have beaten alistair then?
season 5 Castiel
Alistair
battle in abandoned warehouse
Cas after his first resurrection was killing multiple angels and even had Zachariah back off. Anna was frightened to take him on directly at this point - and she vaporized Alistair's meat-suit simply getting her grace back.
So my moneys on Castiel winning a fight with Alistair in season five; in the worse case scenario he could BFR his rear. He can't smite him, but a few pokes from that angel blade and Alistair won't have much of a meat suit to work with.
@LordOfAllHumans said:
Nobody has really proved that Cas was any stronger outside of speculation. Alastair knew a spell that could separate an angle from their vessel. I'm going with Alastair still being able to do this considering Cas didn't seem to be any more powerful.
The fact Anna was afraid to take him directly on after her 'escape' from heaven or him taking on multiple angels without that additional bump from Heaven throughout season 5 implies a bump in power. The only thing dampening is the lack of smiting power since he was cut off from Heaven for the entirety of the season.
@LordOfAllHumans said:
Zach didn't challenge him because he claimed that God brought him back that was no show of power Zach was afraid because he didn't know if God was involved or not. Anna was not afraid of him at all. He was fighting angels with ease right before he used the angel banishing sigil.
It had more so to do with the fact Castiel dropped two angels and was about to do the same to the Seraph.
"If you come near Sam Winchester and I'll kill you"
She proceeds to back off - quite literally jumping through time to avoid fighting Castiel in the present.
@LordOfAllHumans said:
@ghostrider fan1 said:
@LordOfAllHumans: if that was true, she would have fought him instead of standing idly, or running when he threatened to kill her
So now an angel that is fallen and not plugged into Heaven proves that he was more powerful? No angel from Heaven was afraid at all. He thought his resurrection meant he would be the next sheriff in town and Raphael showed us he was not that powerful. Angels can kill each other and he was back on the side of Heaven when he and Anna met again before his resurrection.
He was a Seraph at the time and didn't expect Raphael to kick start another Apocolypse. Considering Raphael blew Castiel apart right at the end of Season 4 - he had a big improvement after becoming a Seraph. Angels can only kill each other through their blades, Archangels on the other hand have shown they don't require those to blow apart lesser angels.
@LordOfAllHumans said:
What? Raphael used the same attack that Cas used to take out monsters and his ass was kicked. Before Anna was killed there was nothing to suggest Cas could beat her or it would not have taken Michael to kill to her. What didi he do post resurrection to show he was more powerful than any other angel?
He didn't use the same attack - Raphael simply kicked Cas' rear across heaven with his own power - not just smiting light.
Michael simply touched her to fry her, Cas would have very likely won a one on one with her. The fact time travel was such a tiresome experience for her (compared to Cas bringing back not only himself but two others) also didn't paint her in a flattering light by comparison.
@LordOfAllHumans: he risked it because they were his friends, and understood that they wanted to help their parents. obviously god didnt make him archangel level, thatd be too much. if that were the case, then he would be strong enough to challenge almost anyone, even lucifer (even though he'd lose) if he came back so strong. remember, its a plot device
In the show, Cas seemed to take a dramatic turn in strength after his ressurection in the fifth season at the beginning so it got me wondering, could he have beaten alistair then?
season 5 Castiel
Alistair
battle in abandoned warehouse
Cas after his first resurrection was killing multiple angels and even had Zachariah back off. Anna was frightened to take him on directly at this point - and she vaporized Alistair's meat-suit simply getting her grace back.
So my moneys on Castiel winning a fight with Alistair in season five; in the worse case scenario he could BFR his rear. He can't smite him, but a few pokes from that angel blade and Alistair won't have much of a meat suit to work with.
@LordOfAllHumans said:
Nobody has really proved that Cas was any stronger outside of speculation. Alastair knew a spell that could separate an angle from their vessel. I'm going with Alastair still being able to do this considering Cas didn't seem to be any more powerful.
The fact Anna was afraid to take him directly on after her 'escape' from heaven or him taking on multiple angels without that additional bump from Heaven throughout season 5 implies a bump in power. The only thing dampening is the lack of smiting power since he was cut off from Heaven for the entirety of the season.
@LordOfAllHumans said:
Zach didn't challenge him because he claimed that God brought him back that was no show of power Zach was afraid because he didn't know if God was involved or not. Anna was not afraid of him at all. He was fighting angels with ease right before he used the angel banishing sigil.
It had more so to do with the fact Castiel dropped two angels and was about to do the same to the Seraph.
"If you come near Sam Winchester and I'll kill you"
She proceeds to back off - quite literally jumping through time to avoid fighting Castiel in the present.
@LordOfAllHumans said:
@ghostrider fan1 said:
@LordOfAllHumans: if that was true, she would have fought him instead of standing idly, or running when he threatened to kill her
So now an angel that is fallen and not plugged into Heaven proves that he was more powerful? No angel from Heaven was afraid at all. He thought his resurrection meant he would be the next sheriff in town and Raphael showed us he was not that powerful. Angels can kill each other and he was back on the side of Heaven when he and Anna met again before his resurrection.
He was a Seraph at the time and didn't expect Raphael to kick start another Apocolypse. Considering Raphael blew Castiel apart right at the end of Season 4 - he had a big improvement after becoming a Seraph. Angels can only kill each other through their blades, Archangels on the other hand have shown they don't require those to blow apart lesser angels.
@LordOfAllHumans said:
What? Raphael used the same attack that Cas used to take out monsters and his ass was kicked. Before Anna was killed there was nothing to suggest Cas could beat her or it would not have taken Michael to kill to her. What didi he do post resurrection to show he was more powerful than any other angel?
He didn't use the same attack - Raphael simply kicked Cas' rear across heaven with his own power - not just smiting light.
Michael simply touched her to fry her, Cas would have very likely won a one on one with her. The fact time travel was such a tiresome experience for her (compared to Cas bringing back not only himself but two others) also didn't paint her in a flattering light by comparison.
Zach only backed off because Cas mentioned God, he killed two angles, and with the right weapon Dean killed Zach. Anna was not backed by anything she was fallen, she was being smart.@ghostrider fan1 said:
@LordOfAllHumans: he risked it because they were his friends, and understood that they wanted to help their parents. obviously god didnt make him archangel level, thatd be too much. if that were the case, then he would be strong enough to challenge almost anyone, even lucifer (even though he'd lose) if he came back so strong. remember, its a plot device
So Cas threatens one with the name of God even though he doesn't even know how he came back and he threatens an angel that has no backing. What made him so much more powerful? Where was it even stated that this was true? What did he do? What display of power leads to us knowing her was so much more powerful? He was killed by Raphael brought back and still ended up near human after, then God brought him back again.
@LordOfAllHumans: your arguments havent really pin pointed how he loses still either
yes they have, even after his first resurrection he was cut off and couldn't fix Bobby and was so depowered that he couldn't teleport and needed medicine and his vessels desires overcame him, then Lucifer killed him, he came back and showed nothing to suggest he was greater than before, because he needed 50000 souls from hell just to make a point.
Zach only backed off because Cas mentioned God, he killed two angles, and with the right weapon Dean killed Zach. Anna was not backed by anything she was fallen, she was being smart.
"Now put these boys back together and go. I won't ask twice."
The implication of God bringing back Castiel might have been a shock to Zachariah, but he restored them because Cas was threatening to put him down. Dean stabbed Zachariah with a surprise angel blade to the jaw - under normal circumstances Dean wouldn't have been able to do that. Anna quite literally ran back in time to avoid fighting Castiel.
There is no doubt Cas was a lot more potent in his Season 5 post his first resurrection.
@ghostrider fan1 said:
@LordOfAllHumans: he risked it because they were his friends, and understood that they wanted to help their parents. obviously god didnt make him archangel level, thatd be too much. if that were the case, then he would be strong enough to challenge almost anyone, even lucifer (even though he'd lose) if he came back so strong. remember, its a plot device
Given season 5 was supposed to be the last season, the original intent might have been to turn Castiel into the new Micheal. Regardless as an archangel he quite literally would have been too powerful to even appear on the show when he could probably blink away any threat Leviathans are with a snap of the fingers.
Zach only backed off because Cas mentioned God, he killed two angles, and with the right weapon Dean killed Zach. Anna was not backed by anything she was fallen, she was being smart.
"Now put these boys back together and go. I won't ask twice."
The implication of God bringing back Castiel might have been a shock to Zachariah, but he restored them because Cas was threatening to put him down. Dean stabbed Zachariah with a surprise angel blade to the jaw - under normal circumstances Dean wouldn't have been able to do that. Anna quite literally ran back in time to avoid fighting Castiel.
There is no doubt Cas was a lot more potent in his Season 5 post his first resurrection.
@ghostrider fan1 said:
@LordOfAllHumans: he risked it because they were his friends, and understood that they wanted to help their parents. obviously god didnt make him archangel level, thatd be too much. if that were the case, then he would be strong enough to challenge almost anyone, even lucifer (even though he'd lose) if he came back so strong. remember, its a plot device
Given season 5 was supposed to be the last season, the original intent might have been to turn Castiel into the new Micheal. Regardless as an archangel he quite literally would have been too powerful to even appear on the show when he could probably blink away any threat Leviathans are with a snap of the fingers.
That implication was all that was needed because Zach thought that only God could have done it, and he would not dare go against God. None of them knows God so they can't be certain about anything but they did know from Joshua that God was around and not making himself known. Zach created an alternate reality twice, Cas had no such power in seasons 4 or 5. Zach talked cancer into existence while Cas couldn't heal Bobby.
That implication was all that was needed because Zach thought that only God could have done it, and he would not dare go against God. None of them knows God so they can't be certain about anything but they did know from Joshua that God was around and not making himself known. Zach created an alternate reality twice, Cas had no such power in seasons 4 or 5. Zach talked cancer into existence while Cas couldn't heal Bobby.
It's implied Lucifer and Michael could have also revived him, but regardless the simple thought that God did it threw Zachariah off his feet. The problem is, it's the threat that Castiel delivers and Zachariah's complete compliance that implies he left because of said threat and returned Dean and Sam to normal because of said threat.
Zachariah never created an alternate reality at all in the series, Seraphs have never been that powerful. I've already pointed out Castiel was fairly limited being severed from Heaven in terms of healing and smiting - that doesn't make him any less capable of killing his brothers and sisters - including Zachariah.
That implication was all that was needed because Zach thought that only God could have done it, and he would not dare go against God. None of them knows God so they can't be certain about anything but they did know from Joshua that God was around and not making himself known. Zach created an alternate reality twice, Cas had no such power in seasons 4 or 5. Zach talked cancer into existence while Cas couldn't heal Bobby.
It's implied Lucifer and Michael could have also revived him, but regardless the simple thought that God did it threw Zachariah off his feet. The problem is, it's the threat that Castiel delivers and Zachariah's complete compliance that implies he left because of said threat and returned Dean and Sam to normal because of said threat.
Zachariah never created an alternate reality at all in the series, Seraphs have never been that powerful. I've already pointed out Castiel was fairly limited being severed from Heaven in terms of healing and smiting - that doesn't make him any less capable of killing his brothers and sisters - including Zachariah.
So as I said Zachariah did not do anything because he was afraid of Castiel, he complies because he thinks God brought Casitel back and nothing more.
He warped reality to make Sam, Dean and anybody that knew them and those that didn't believe they worked at a company and were never hunters. He sent Dean to that alternate future that he must have created because it never happened. I've pointed out how limited Castiel was as well, but you still maintain that he was more powerful after being resurrected even though the first time he was rendered so powerless than he was almost human, and the second time he didn't do anything to prove this boost. It's said he is a seraph, but his rank in the angelic order was never mentioned before so for all we know he was always a seraph. As shown with Zach when he was demoted the choir you belonged to does not determine how powerful you are because there were seraph higher, Gabriel and Lucifer are also seraph according to lore and in some lore so is Michael.
So as I said Zachariah did not do anything because he was afraid of Castiel, he complies because he thinks God brought Casitel back and nothing more.
He warped reality to make Sam, Dean and anybody that knew them and those that didn't believe they worked at a company and were never hunters. He sent Dean to that alternate future that he must have created because it never happened. I've pointed out how limited Castiel was as well, but you still maintain that he was more powerful after being resurrected even though the first time he was rendered so powerless than he was almost human, and the second time he didn't do anything to prove this boost. It's said he is a seraph, but his rank in the angelic order was never mentioned before so for all we know he was always a seraph. As shown with Zach when he was demoted the choir you belonged to does not determine how powerful you are because there were seraph higher, Gabriel and Lucifer are also seraph according to lore and in some lore so is Michael.
The only time Zachariah backs off in fear of God was when Joshua on God's behalf told him the big man upstairs wanted to relay a message to Sam and Dean. He backed off when Castiel threatened to kill him and returned the Winchesters to normal because of Cas' threat to him.
That wasn't reality warping, that was scrubbing their minds and putting new memories there; Cas does the same thing in season six to Lisa and Ben. The alternate future was the future as it was going to be if Dean had stuck to the decision of not teaming back up with Sam.
He tells Dean in the second episode of Season Four that he is a soldier and is repeated mentioning his previous position in the garrison that watched over Earth. Seraphim in Supernatural are seemingly part of Heaven's management - and very very few in number. Namely why there have only been two in the series thus far.
We're talking angel lore in the Supernatural universe, not actual lore. Namely why Zachariah and Castiel aren't constantly in Chuck's presence praising him.
So as I said Zachariah did not do anything because he was afraid of Castiel, he complies because he thinks God brought Casitel back and nothing more.
He warped reality to make Sam, Dean and anybody that knew them and those that didn't believe they worked at a company and were never hunters. He sent Dean to that alternate future that he must have created because it never happened. I've pointed out how limited Castiel was as well, but you still maintain that he was more powerful after being resurrected even though the first time he was rendered so powerless than he was almost human, and the second time he didn't do anything to prove this boost. It's said he is a seraph, but his rank in the angelic order was never mentioned before so for all we know he was always a seraph. As shown with Zach when he was demoted the choir you belonged to does not determine how powerful you are because there were seraph higher, Gabriel and Lucifer are also seraph according to lore and in some lore so is Michael.
The only time Zachariah backs off in fear of God was when Joshua on God's behalf told him the big man upstairs wanted to relay a message to Sam and Dean. He backed off when Castiel threatened to kill him and returned the Winchesters to normal because of Cas' threat to him.
That wasn't reality warping, that was scrubbing their minds and putting new memories there; Cas does the same thing in season six to Lisa and Ben. The alternate future was the future as it was going to be if Dean had stuck to the decision of not teaming back up with Sam.
He tells Dean in the second episode of Season Four that he is a soldier and is repeated mentioning his previous position in the garrison that watched over Earth. Seraphim in Supernatural are seemingly part of Heaven's management - and very very few in number. Namely why there have only been two in the series thus far.
We're talking angel lore in the Supernatural universe, not actual lore. Namely why Zachariah and Castiel aren't constantly in Chuck's presence praising him.
So Castiel scared him way because he was more powerful I copied and am pasting the script from there encounter since you seem to believe it wasn't Cas implying that God was involved that got Zach to listen to him
ZACHARIAH
How are you...
CASTIEL
Alive? That's a good question. How did these two end up on that airplane? Another good question. 'Cause the angels didn't do it. I think we both know the answer, don't we?
ZACHARIAH
No. That's not possible.
CASTIEL
It scares you. Well, it should. Now, put these boys back together and go. I won't ask twice.
ZACHARIAH vanishes. SAM looks up and around, surprised. DEAN and SAM stand up.
Cas only scrubbed Ben and Lisa, Zach scrubbed Dean and Sam, and implanted new lives in the minds of everybody (including them) at the company and even gave them new lives to mirror what he did to there minds.
Seraph is just shot for Seraphim and Castiel was not in management (Micael was though) he was a solider even after resurrection he was not ranked hire than Zach, so like I said there is nothing to prove he was not always that kind of angel, and just not as powerful as his brothers. Supernatural lore is based off of actual lore, they stuck to Michael beating Lucifer and Lucifer being the favorite so why now are we denying the angelic hierarchy the only thing they got wrong was Uriel not being an archangel.
So Castiel scared him way because he was more powerful I copied and am pasting the script from there encounter since you seem to believe it wasn't Cas implying that God was involved that got Zach to listen to him
ZACHARIAH: How are you...
CASTIEL: Alive? That's a good question. How did these two end up on that airplane? Another good question. 'Cause the angels didn't do it. I think we both know the answer, don't we?
ZACHARIAH: No. That's not possible.
CASTIEL: It scares you. Well, it should. Now, put these boys back together and go. I won't ask twice.
ZACHARIAH vanishes. SAM looks up and around, surprised. DEAN and SAM stand up.
I posted the video, the dialogue isn't new to me since I've seen that scene at least several times by now. I honestly don't know why it's hard to believe Zachariah didn't run from Cas - who was dropping multiple angels in-front of him and sporting a blade that could kill him just as easily as it did those angels.
Cas only scrubbed Ben and Lisa, Zach scrubbed Dean and Sam, and implanted new lives in the minds of everybody (including them) at the company and even gave them new lives to mirror what he did to there minds.
In everyone at the company? Why would Zach need to do anything close to that? All he did was change the memories of maybe less than a dozen people to make Sam and Dean fit into their roles. It's not even clear if he personally did it and it wasn't entirely effective on either of them to boot. They didn't have entirely new lives, their continuity and universe remained the same - namely the Ghost Chasers and their hating on Sam and Dean.
Seraph is just shot for Seraphim and Castiel was not in management (Micael was though) he was a solider even after resurrection he was not ranked hire than Zach, so like I said there is nothing to prove he was not always that kind of angel, and just not as powerful as his brothers. Supernatural lore is based off of actual lore, they stuck to Michael beating Lucifer and Lucifer being the favorite so why now are we denying the angelic hierarchy the only thing they got wrong was Uriel not being an archangel.
Michael was the CEO / Chairman of the board, Zachariah was just upper level management; there is a reason Joshua was calling him "sir" and he was ranting about how he was employee of the month, every month, for eternity / people averted their gaze when he would pass by. Castiel on the other hand spent his much of his time watching Earth for millions of years (in line with his name-sake, Cassiel), he wasn't managing anything and he had direct superiors in his Garrison. He calls himself a soldier and that's what he did - carrying out whatever orders handed out to him by Heaven - which in this case was likely Zachariah himself given he seems to have been Cas' superior.
Trying to lump all angels into the Seraphim category doesn't quite fit well IMO. Season 5-6 Cas is simply sporting a lot more power than his previous iterations had close to, namely why he can bring Bobby back without breaking a sweat from hell, pull Sam out of the cage or the other random neat tricks.
Lucifer was bumped up to Archangel, Seraphs in Supernatural seem to be a mix of Cherubs / Seraphim in terms of appearance and Cherubs themselves are cupids looking for hugs. Not exactly sticking entirely to lore.
What does Chuck have to do with anything?
Chucks God and Seraphim, as far as lore is concerned, spend every moment in God's presence praising him.
Season 4 Cas - This fight happened. Didn't end well for Cas. Alastair 6/10 (Although, without that Angel Expelling Spell, I don't think there's anything Alastair could do.)
Season 5 Cas - Basically just season 4 Cas but weaker because he's cut off from Heaven. Alastair wins 8/10 (Again, only because of the spell and Cas' inability to smite him as a common angel)
Season 6-8 Cas - Major power boost. Smites Alastair with effortless ease. Seraph Cas 10/10
Season 9-10/"Foreign Grace" Cas - He was so pathetic in this state he might take himself out of the fight. Alastair 10/10
Season 11-15 Cas - Who knows? Dude could turn Belphegor to ashes with a touch or single-handedly fight off a diner-full of mind controlled people in one episode and then get beat up by a one-off human side character with enochian brass knuckles in the next. Power scaling really went to shit at this point in the show unfortunately. Either way 5/10
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