Cassandra Cain VS X-23

I'm sorry you feel I'm ignoring your points, but I don't think your argument is sound. No offense. 
 
-Are X-23's arms filled with poison? No, but each hand and foot is armed with claws that can cut through steel with a casual swipe. One hit from those and Cassandra's in big trouble: losing an arm or leg, sustaining massive internal trauma, losing blood... I'm not really sure how this can be ignored. Characters like Cap have a special defense against this (the shield), and people like Logan hacve high-end healing factors and unbreakable skeletons to minimize the damage, but Cassandra doesn't have any of this. Why will she just bounce back from a slash that cuts through her quadriceps, or biceps, or guts?
 
-Cassandra can be hit. I'm not sure how anyone can argue this either. You admit yourself that Nightwing has done so on at least two occasions. I'm not sure why that would be considered a "lucky shot." They've fought to a standstill. You yourself post a scan of her being tagged by Deathstroke. She was tagged by Batman during their fight in Gotham in #50 of her series. She was tagged by Joker during their only encounter. She was tagged by Robin (Drake) in his series. She was tagged by Shiva on multiple occasions. She was tagged by Mr. Fun during their fight.  She was tagged by Black Canary during a sparring session.
 
I'm sure for each of these events you have an explanation: She was drugged, she was angry, she was tired, they were sparring, it was that time of the month LOL etc. At the end of the day, it happens too often to write each one off due to circumstance. Note that I'm not arguing she's a bad fighter or lost these fights either!! Look at the opponents I've listed, most of them are great fighters. I'm just saying it isn't impossible to hit her... To say otherwise really begins to seem like favoritism.

So why would X-23 have problems tagging her? Why do you think there's this massive skill gap between Cassandra and X-23? I'm genuinely curious because I don't see it. Both are A-list martial artists.  Saying it's so because Cassandra beat Shiva doesn't cut it because X-23 can beat Shiva, along with plenty of other martial artists in the Marvel Universe.
 

 
@difficlus said:

i swear its like you ignore our points.  
 

• Move prediciton, she knows any move x-23 will make. 
• The fact that she can block her blows by directing her ARMs and LEGS away from herself. Is it so impossible to imagine? Just because the blades are there doesn't mean suddenly there is no way of even touching x-23's body. She has the combat speed to evade all her moves and attack (like she did with her fight with batman before they got drugged). 
• You seem to be factoring that just because what batman has tagged her once (while both were drugged with soul?) as with nightwing (once while fighting fairly. and fought to a standstill? The fight was broken up.) and lady shiva ( once while both were on even ground) seems to mean suddenly she is always going to get tagged if she tries to go up against x-23. if you want to argue that way x-23 has been hit by arrows and a pool stick from punisher ( -__- ) so if you want to discuss that cass can be tagged at least acknowledge that so can x-23 by the same amount of times. and x-23 has been tagged plenty times. 
• You know why i'm discounting all those feats? Battle forum rules. Fighting at the best of her ability. If batgirl is tagged because she was on drugs or was tried or manipulated by deathstroke by standards here all those showings are not accounted for because here we are assuming she is at full health and fighting at the best of her ability (aka) no fatigue or drugs inside her at the beginning of the the fight.
• At the beginning of her fight with batman she was dodging all his moves  and landed one BEFORE they got drugged. Then she started to get tagged.  This shows how the battle would have played if she was not drugged up. 
• All this while she has thousands of times of dodging her opponents and bullets. You want to bring up one or two time hits. Yeah i got a problem with that buddy...

@Cochise said:

-Are X-23's arms filled with poison? No, but each hand and foot is armed with claws that can cut through steel with a casual swipe. One hit from those and Cassandra's in big trouble: losing an arm or leg, sustaining massive internal trauma, losing blood... I'm not really sure how this can be ignored. Characters like Cap have a special defense against this (the shield), and people like Logan hacve high-end healing factors and unbreakable skeletons to minimize the damage, but Cassandra doesn't have any of this. Why will she just bounce back from a slash that cuts through her quadriceps, or biceps, or guts?

Let me ask you a question. I've read most of X-23's appearances in New X-men and X Force, I've read nearly all of the miniseries that she appeared in, and I've read every issue to date of her ongoing. I haven't seen her face a single fighter so far with abilities and skills like Cass. Here's my question, how many times have you seen Laura fight someone who was her equal in speed that lost a limb or was cut so bad that they nearly bled to death? And how many of those people could effectively predict her movements? I may have missed or just haven't read it yet but I haven't seen it happen yet and until she faces someone like Mister X and nearly kills him with just one slice then I don't see anything like that happening against Cassandra. We both know Mister X has similar reading abilities to Cass and possibly even greater speed and that Wolverine is superior to Laura in h2h, speed, and strength but even he wasn't able to kill someone who could read him with just one slice or stab. Getting tagged doesn't mean that it will be that easy.

Cassandra can be hit.

This has been the base of your debate so far, but it's an over simplification.

Nightwing has done so on at least two occasions.

He has only done so through extreme difficulty in one instance and the other was plot induced, it had nothing to do with her not being fast enough or skilled enough to avoid being hit.

I'm not sure why that would be considered a "lucky shot." They've fought to a standstill

Because he himself admit that she's difficult for him to hit just not impossible. Their fight was very short and was interrupted, I don't think we could take that to mean he could beat her or even match her.

She was tagged by Joker during their only encounter.

The fact that you think Joker could actually tag her makes me not even know what to say. The joker has no h2h skills at all and when martial arts masters struggle to tag her that should let you know it's not plausible for him to be able to tag her at all.

She was tagged by Robin (Drake) in his series.

That would be in the poorly written story arc.

She was tagged by Shiva on multiple occasions.

Here's on of those that makes me question how much you know about each of these characters. Lady Shiva is the most skilled martial artist in the DCU aside from Richard Dragon, and aside from being that she's also been said to be able to read body language just like Cass can. Her speed is also comparable to Cassandra's.

She was tagged by Mr. Fun during their fight.

You can't be serious.

She was tagged by Black Canary during a sparring session.

There is a big difference between a spar and an actual fight. In a spar Cass is usually not even going all out and against Dinah she wasn't, and it was mostly used to show how much Dinah has grown in skill after training with Lady Shiva.

I'm sure for each of these events you have an explanation: She was drugged, she was angry, she was tired, they were sparring, it was that time of the month LOL etc. At the end of the day, it happens too often to write each one off due to circumstance. Note that I'm not arguing she's a bad fighter or lost these fights either!! Look at the opponents I've listed, most of them are great fighters. I'm just saying it isn't impossible to hit her... To say otherwise really begins to seem like favoritism.

Just as you can be sure that being tagged does not equate to being hit easily by any opponent. There's also the fact that Laura rarely eve shows her martial arts skills and that most of these fighters are at the very least near her skill set. Laura has never once killed someone by cutting them just once, so what makes you think the fight would end with Laura tagging Cass just once?

So why would X-23 have problems tagging her? Why do you think there's this massive skill gap between Cassandra and X-23? I'm genuinely curious because I don't see it. Both are A-list martial artists. Saying it's so because Cassandra beat Shiva doesn't cut it because X-23 can beat Shiva, along with plenty of other martial artists in the Marvel Universe.

For the exact same reason that every single person you named does, she can predict her movements. She won't just walk up and stab Cass through the chest then walk off and it will take more than just one hit to permanently put Cass down. It's like I've said many times, Laura doesn't even do severe damage to people who aren't able to read her so how could she tag someone just as fast as she is who can also read her moves?

@cascadeking09 said:

@difficlus: Actually to be fair he has tagged her while she could read him, but it was in a spar when she was about 8 years old. I'm assuming that is what Cochise is referring to the time that she was drugged because that's the only time I can think of that they actually fought and most people agree that that entire story arc was poorly written.

exactly. He ignored battle forum rules by counting drugged up battles. bringing up low showings and ignoring consistency while making it seem like cass can't even touch x-23 without getting cut. 

@difficlus said:

@cascadeking09 said:

@difficlus: Actually to be fair he has tagged her while she could read him, but it was in a spar when she was about 8 years old. I'm assuming that is what Cochise is referring to the time that she was drugged because that's the only time I can think of that they actually fought and most people agree that that entire story arc was poorly written.

exactly. He ignored battle forum rules by counting drugged up battles. bringing up low showings and ignoring consistency while making it seem like cass can't even touch x-23 without getting cut. 

I figure that he doesn't know that those are low showings or pis, but he does seem to think that Cass being tagged= Laura will cut her deep enough to cause severe damage.

@Cochise said:

-Are X-23's arms filled with poison? No, but each hand and foot is armed with claws that can cut through steel with a casual swipe. One hit from those and Cassandra's in big trouble: losing an arm or leg, sustaining massive internal trauma, losing blood... I'm not really sure how this can be ignored. Characters like Cap have a special defense against this (the shield), and people like Logan hacve high-end healing factors and unbreakable skeletons to minimize the damage, but Cassandra doesn't have any of this. Why will she just bounce back from a slash that cuts through her quadriceps, or biceps, or guts?

Let me ask you a question. I've read most of X-23's appearances in New X-men and X factor, I've read nearly all of the miniseries that she appeared in, and I've read every issue to date of her ongoing. I haven't seen her face a single fighter so far with abilities and skills like Cass. Here's my question, how many times have you seen Laura fight someone who was her equal in speed that lost a limb or was cut so bad that they nearly bled to death? And how many of those people could effectively predict her movements? I may have missed or just haven't read it yet but I haven't seen it happen yet and until she faces someone like Mister X and nearly kills him with just one slice then I don't see anything like that happening against Cassandra. We both know Mister X has similar reading abilities to Cass and possibly even greater speed and that Wolverine is superior to Laura in h2h, speed, and strength but even he wasn't able to kill someone who could read him with just one slice or stab. Getting tagged doesn't mean that it will be that easy.

 Cassandra can be hit.

This has been the base of your debate so far, but it's an over simplification. 

Nightwing has done so on at least two occasions.

He has only done so through extreme difficulty in one instance and the other was plot induced, it had nothing to do with her not being fast enough or skilled enough to avoid being hit.

I'm not sure why that would be considered a "lucky shot." They've fought to a standstill

Because he himself admit that she's difficult for him to hit just not impossible. Their fight was very short and was interrupted, I don't think we could take that to mean he could beat her or even match her.

She was tagged by Joker during their only encounter.

The fact that you think Joker could actually tag her makes me not even know what to say. The joker has no h2h skills at all and when martial arts masters struggle to tag her that should let you know it's not plausible for him to be able to tag her at all.

She was tagged by Robin (Drake) in his series.

That would be in the poorly written story arc.

She was tagged by Shiva on multiple occasions.

Here's on of those that makes me question how much you know about each of these characters. Lady Shiva is the most skilled martial artist in the DCU aside from Richard Dragon, and aside from being that she's also been said to be able to read body language just like Cass can. Her speed is also comparable to Cassandra's.

She was tagged by Mr. Fun during their fight.

You can't be serious.

She was tagged by Black Canary during a sparring session.

There is a big difference between a spar and an actual fight. In a spar Cass is usually not even going all out and against Dinah she wasn't, and it was mostly used to show how much Dinah has grown in skill after training with Lady Shiva.

I'm sure for each of these events you have an explanation: She was drugged, she was angry, she was tired, they were sparring, it was that time of the month LOL etc. At the end of the day, it happens too often to write each one off due to circumstance. Note that I'm not arguing she's a bad fighter or lost these fights either!! Look at the opponents I've listed, most of them are great fighters. I'm just saying it isn't impossible to hit her... To say otherwise really begins to seem like favoritism.

Just as you can be sure that being tagged does not equate to being hit easily by any opponent. There's also the fact that Laura rarely eve shows her martial arts skills and that most of these fighters are at the very least near her skill set. Laura has never once killed someone by cutting them just once, so what makes you think the fight would end with Laura tagging Cass just once?

So why would X-23 have problems tagging her? Why do you think there's this massive skill gap between Cassandra and X-23? I'm genuinely curious because I don't see it. Both are A-list martial artists.  Saying it's so because Cassandra beat Shiva doesn't cut it because X-23 can beat Shiva, along with plenty of other martial artists in the Marvel Universe.

For the exact same reason that every single person you named does, she can predict her movements. She won't just walk up and stab Cass through the chest then walk off and it will take more than just one hit to permanently put Cass down. It's like I've said many times, Laura doesn't even do severe damage to people who aren't able to read her so how could she tag someone just as fast as she is who can also read her moves?

@cascadeking09 said:

@difficlus said:

@cascadeking09 said:

@difficlus: Actually to be fair he has tagged her while she could read him, but it was in a spar when she was about 8 years old. I'm assuming that is what Cochise is referring to the time that she was drugged because that's the only time I can think of that they actually fought and most people agree that that entire story arc was poorly written.

exactly. He ignored battle forum rules by counting drugged up battles. bringing up low showings and ignoring consistency while making it seem like cass can't even touch x-23 without getting cut. 

I figure that he doesn't know that those are low showings or pis, but he does seem to think that Cass being tagged= Laura will cut her deep enough to cause severe damage.

Its not like she is impossible to tag, but based on showing its far more likely cass will be tagging x-23 more and with more kill shot opportunity than x-23 tagging cass more in this battle

thank you!!

Its not like she is impossible to tag, but based on showing its far more likely cass will be tagging x-23 more and with more kill shot opportunity than x-23 tagging cass more in this battle

Want to clear up something about x-23's durability.   
People look at the scans below and assume x-23 suddenly has the durability to take shots from WWH. I suppose if she does then so does surge as she also gets a hit along with beast. The fact that x-23 was KOed along with everyone else shows how troubling their logic is. The only reason she survived that attack was due to healing (as stated by hulk himself) not some insane durability. In fact she's had her skin punctured and has been hurt by farr less. 

Gallery

 

@difficlus

said:

Its not like she is impossible to tag, but based on showing its far more likely cass will be tagging x-23 more and with more kill shot opportunity than x-23 tagging cass more in this battle

At least we agree that X-23 can tag Cassandra. Now, I never said that Cassandra couldn't tag X-23 right back - far from it. That's why I believe the Muramasa fight is a draw. But while X-23 can instill grevious harm to Cassandra with a hit, Cassandra is much less likely to do so because of X-23's resistance to pressure point attacks and insanely high-level healing factor that can heal major wounds mid-fight.  So we get a war of attrition: Cassandra hitting X-23, X-23 hitting Cassandra... But only one of these fighters will be healing from her wounds mid-fight. That's X-23, and that's why she wins. Will X-23 cut Cassandra every time she tags her? No. Is it easy to tag Cassandra? No, I never said it was "easy." Will it happen eventually? With a fighter of X-23's caliber it doesn't make sense to assume it won't. As for X-23 not delivering fatal wounds to her opponents: are you kidding me? Throughout her appearances one of the more shocking elements was the trail of bodies she would tend to leave behind her (shocking to me because I find it amazing that an Xavier-sanctioned team would allow that sort of thing.)   As for ignoring board rules, maybe you can point me to the rule you think I'm violating because I'm not deliberately spreading falsehoods about either character.

@Gremlin From Kremlin said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Gremlin From Kremlin said:

Cassandra wins without the muramasa blade.

Unlikely, to say the least.

 It's not unlikely, Laura lacks the skill to contend with Cassie.

That's just crazy talk. Cassandra has been tagged by people at or below X-23's skill level, Cassandra can't overcome X-23's healing factor, and as noted pressure points will be far less effective on X-23 than they would be on a normal human. Without the Muramasa blade Cassandra winds up cut to ribbons.  With the blade it's a draw, since each fighter can one-hot kill the other and X-23's healing factor is negated. But seeing as how the Muramasa blade isn't standard equipment for Cassandra, and doesn't even exist in her universe, that's a pretty hollow way to pull a draw.

@difficlus said:

Its not like she is impossible to tag, but based on showing its far more likely cass will be tagging x-23 more and with more kill shot opportunity than x-23 tagging cass more in this battle

At least we agree that X-23 can tag Cassandra. Now, I never said that Cassandra couldn't tag X-23 right back - far from it. That's why I believe the Muramasa fight is a draw. But while X-23 can instill grevious harm to Cassandra with a hit, Cassandra is much less likely to do so because of X-23's resistance to pressure point attacks and insanely high-level healing factor that can heal major wounds mid-fight.

Will X-23 cut Cassandra every time she tags her? No. Is it easy to tag Cassandra? No, I never said it was "easy." Will it happen eventually? With a fighter of X-23's caliber it doesn't make sense to assume it won't.

As for ignoring board rules, maybe you can point me to the rule you think I'm violating because I'm not deliberately spreading falsehoods about either character.

*sigh*

@cascadeking09 said: 
 
"There's the flaw. How is it a draw, I've asked you this twice now but you haven't directly answered. You're saying X-23 wins without it because she can do more harm with her claws that Cass won't heal from. Well if Laura can't heal from being sliced with a blade, how is it a draw? It is far more easy for Cass to slice her than it is for Laura to slice her, putting a muramasa blade in her hand just makes her chances of doing anything to Cass slim to none. "
 
I'm sorry but I feel like I've answered this three times already... How is it a draw? With her claws, X-23 can give Cassandra fatal wounds from which Cassandra cannot heal from. With the blade, Cassandra can give X-23 fatal wounds from which X-23 cannot heal from. Will every hit from X-23 be fatal? No. Will every hit from Cassandra be fatal? No.  I don't see it as being "far more easy" for Cassandra to slice X-23 but this is probably where we disagree.

Due to the somewhat cheesy nature of giving Cassandra a weapon that doesn't exist in her own universe in order to give her a better chance, that's probably all I have to say on the Muramasa fight.

I'm sorry but I NEVER said that EVERY time X-23 hits Cassandra it will be a fatal blow.

a cut to the leg, a cut to the back, the blood loss adds up.

And with her healing factor, X-23 can outlast Cassandra: Cassandra damage will pile up, while X-23's damage will heal.

Fair enough, as long as this rule gets consistently applied to all fighters. Even without including Joker or Mr. Fun, the number of people who have tagged Cassandra in fights is not limited to Shiva.

@cascadeking09 said: 
 
So because you don't like the scenario you would prefer to call it a draw? It doesn't make believable since to say that X-23 wins because she "has a ridiculously potent healing factor" and "also has a reach advantage" and then when those two advantages are taken away it is now a draw? 
 
No, i call it a draw because that's how I see it playing out, for the reasons I've stated several times at this point. I consider it cheesy because the Muramasa blade isn't standard equipment for Cassandra. X-23's claws and healing factor are standard for her. Those are the characters. Why not give X-23 a green lantern ring and Cassandra the quantum bands? I'm a big Spider-Man fan, but I can accept when he loses and I don't get much of a kick of having him win by giving him things he doesn't normally have in the comics. 

Um, it IS that simple. X-23 DOES have the capacity to kill Cassandra with one hit if she gets a good enough shot in. And without the Muramasa blade, Cassandra isn't doing the same to X-23.

My point is these will have a culmulative effect on Cassandra because she doesn't have a healing factor.

I'm sorry but if anyone is reaching it's you. WHY is Laura not likely to land that many hits on Cassandra, when other characters have done so and when Laura's healing factor means Cassandra will have a hard time putting Laura down? Is it your opinion that EVERY TIME Cassandra gets hit, it's due to a slip? 

OK, one more time: with X-23's healing factor, the damage inflicted by Cassandra with each hit will heal. Meanwhile, the damage inflicted by X-23 on Cassandra will accumulate, and each hit will reduce her combat ability. And Cassandra simply doesn't have the durability to shrug off a solid hit form the claws. 

In other words Cassandra's speed is arguably greater than Laura's, Cass can read body language, Cass is strong enough to ko her, Cass is more experienced, and Cass is a better martial artist. Those are her advantages.
 
Laura has a healing factor, Laura can reach farther with her claws those are her advanatages.
 
If we say Laura wins without being more skilled in h2h, without greater speed, without greater strength, and without out a way of predicting her movements then how does she draw with all that being the same and the only difference being that she can't heal from her attacks and she can't reach farther than Cassandra can with the blade? 
 
Cass can now reach farther than Laura and now she can do lasting damage, this is the same reason you say Laura wins despite all of those disadvantages, on top of those two things Cass can predict her every move and is a better fighter? So now Laura has 0 advantages and Cass has every advantage, it can't possibly be a draw.

We've been over that. The damage will heal that doesn't mean she can't be knocked out or even hurt for that matter. For her to accumulate damage she would have to be able to land SEVERAL powerful blows or several deep cuts. And Cass is very highly durable, if Laura stabbed her through a vital organ maybe that would put her down, but Cass being prepped and knowing fully what Laura is capable of I doubt she would let something like that happen  

Doesn't Muramasa F with the wielder's soul?  Acting like mind control?  I don't think Cassandra is going to be at the best of her abilities.  Also Cassandra being shot in the head is just pure lunacy!  I cant believe it's even being considered a legitimate feat. 

Want to clear up something about x-23's durability.   
People look at the scans below and assume x-23 suddenly has the durability to take shots from WWH. I suppose if she does then so does surge as she also gets a hit along with beast. The fact that x-23 was KOed along with everyone else shows how troubling their logic is. The only reason she survived that attack was due to healing (as stated by hulk himself) not some insane durability. In fact she's had her skin punctured and has been hurt by farr less. 

Gallery

Doesn't Muramasa F with the wielder's soul?  Acting like mind control?  I don't think Cassandra is going to be at the best of her abilities.  Also Cassandra being shot in the head is just pure lunacy!  I cant believe it's even being considered a legitimate feat. 

Off topic, but I just wanted to say something about healing factors. When Kid Flash was shot in the knee by Deathstroke, Cyborg took him to the hospital, where Beast Boy told him not to worry because he heals fast. Cyborg correctly said that just because you heal quickly doesn't mean you heal correctly. Wolverine might be exempt from that rule because his adamantium skeleton provides a general framework for his healing factor, but Laura doesn't have one. After all that regeneration, she should logically look like a deformed freak.

Muramasa doesn't nullify the healing, it just creates a detriment IIRC.

Muramasa doesn't nullify the healing, it just creates a detriment IIRC.

Off topic, but I just wanted to say something about healing factors. When Kid Flash was shot in the knee by Deathstroke, Cyborg took him to the hospital, where Beast Boy told him not to worry because he heals fast. Cyborg correctly said that just because you heal quickly doesn't mean you heal correctly. Wolverine might be exempt from that rule because his adamantium skeleton provides a general framework for his healing factor, but Laura doesn't have one. After all that regeneration, she should logically look like a deformed freak.

@CitizenBane said:

Off topic, but I just wanted to say something about healing factors. When Kid Flash was shot in the knee by Deathstroke, Cyborg took him to the hospital, where Beast Boy told him not to worry because he heals fast. Cyborg correctly said that just because you heal quickly doesn't mean you heal correctly.

That could be the only isolated instance as far as healing factors go. This was never stated for other characters with healing factors, however.

Off topic, but I just wanted to say something about healing factors. When Kid Flash was shot in the knee by Deathstroke, Cyborg took him to the hospital, where Beast Boy told him not to worry because he heals fast. Cyborg correctly said that just because you heal quickly doesn't mean you heal correctly.

That could be the only isolated instance as far as healing factors go. This was never stated for other characters with healing factors, however.

@Lance Uppercut said:

@cascadeking09 said:

@Lance Uppercut: Because 1. this is one instance not several 2. she was surprised by Mallah not knowing that she wouldn't be able to read him and got hit once (mallah isn't just some regular person he's very strong) then while fighting him the opponent that she had already put down interferes. If this, I repeat, one instance is supposed to mean that she isn't superhuman then I guess this one writer knows more about Cass than all the others. Yes she did catch up to him and went passed him and did you forget to mention the part where he took off when the floor collapsed underneath her and she was left in a burning building? She said "He's faster than this. He's toying with me." then she runs jumps over him "I change the game. Take the lead."  He shot at her she dodge then the net thing came HE MISSED and she ran into the wall trying to avoid it, then she took his sword away from him. 
 
None of this says anything about her not being superhuman, the first is her in a one on one fight getting caught from behind and the other his her fighting someone else who has superhuman speed.
 
Here's the whole thing so that you can see.
 

Gallery

 
Notice in the first scan he's already taken off while she's buried under a pile of rubble and in the second she's already caught up, which you said she still could not do, then avoids his attack and runs ahead of him.

But it hasn't been just one instance. You act as though she's never been hit by an opponent before, or simply shot. Which, well, she has. She couldn't read Mallah at the beginning, but once he became angry she even stated it was easier at that point. Notice that when he draws his sword and misses, he has to turn. She went in a different direction. If she'd just jumped over him, they would have continued in a linear path. He didn't miss her with the net either. It's clearly wrapped around the lower body in the fourth page, and then again he uses it to pull her in the fifth. She wasn't running trying to avoid it, she hit the wall because it caught her. And once again, she even states he's faster then that. It implies (to me at least) that he wanted her to chase him and had to slow down to do so. She took his sword from his waist and even had to use it to cut off the net. 

She hasn't, she's been tagged and it's not easy to just tag her. She's also only been shot maybe once and that's about it. Being hit does not mean you lack superhuman speed.You have it wrong, she caught up to him then he turns around to slice her and she jumps over him and keeps going. He's the one who turned around not her.  He did miss her with the net, it was meant to catch her, but only got her legs. Moving faster than  someone with enhanced speed who isn't moving at their fastest is very vague and doesn't at all say she doesn't have superhuman speed.

@Lance Uppercut said:

@difficlus: After seeing the starting position from the guy with the machine gun and Cass, I'd actually say that X-23 displayed greater speed. X-23 started in a similar position (I'd say about the same distance, actually) and he gunner never got off a shot, despite being behind her with plenty of time to raise his gun. 

I never said she has superhuman running speed here. That scan was posted to display her resilience.  
All throughout her series she has been stopping people with guns whose hands were already on the trigger finger and about to fire while a distance away. What x-23 has done so has cassandra. So again that scan was not posted to display her speed. I can post speed if i want.  It has been stated in the series that her speed (running) is borderline human. Its her aggregate speed (combat speed) that is superhuman. Much like Midnighter in wildstorm. Running speed is about twice as fast as a human. But his combat speed...he has been shown to bltizes speedsters and even tagged a blitzing apollo.  Also in that scan Cassandra had her speed (running and aggregate) cut down by half due to not even having her power.  Running/travel speed and combat ( moving ) speed are different. 
 

@Lance Uppercut

said:

@cascadeking09 said:

@Lance Uppercut: Her speed is superhuman, some mused that she might be a metahuman because she moves so fast. And I think you're underestimating Cass or overestimating Laura. She can try as hard as she wants to slice Cass, but she wont her more than a few times. Cass has great speed and she can also read her body language and tell what she will do before she does it.

I doubt she's metahuman, or she wouldn't get tagged by people like Monsieur Mallah or be unable to catch Deathstroke. 

Both who are superhuman also... 
-___- 
 So what does that point trying to prove. She was tagged by superhumans and hence she MUST be just a human?   
 

@cascadeking09

: 
Yes early in her series

@Lance Uppercut

said:

One shot? Because in the next panel, he hits her with three. At once. And considering the look of the gun, it doesn't resemble any sort of sniper rifle. And yes, automatic rifles can switch between semi-automatic and full automatic selections. So it's more of a pain tolerance thing anyway.  It's never been stated that she has any sort of super sonic speed. I would imagine that at least on person would have mentioned it if she had some kind of power. She's peak human, yes, but supersonic is way overplaying it. While simultaneously downplaying X-23. An entire case made on batarangs isn't doing much considering being hit with a batarang isn't going to kill X-23. On the other hand, being stabbed and clawed repeatedly by X-23 is going to devastate Cassandra whether she feels outward discomfort or not. Sh'e not as nice when it comes to going easy on opponents for any reason. Slicing open throats, stabbing people in the head, snapping necks. She can only keep up an assault for so long before she becomes fatigued. X-23 has the luxury of excellent healing as well as incredible training and a deadlier set of weapons. Without the muramasa blade, that healing factor is going to be the biggest game changer. Because most of Cassandra's killshots aren't going to be nearly as effective on Laura. 

He fired one shot first. Then the sound of the other three shots coming off sounds like they are been fired individually. "snikt..snikt...snikt". If it was an automatic rifle it would be "bllaaaaam" to imply rapid fire as was done for the majority of the time in the series. Whether sniper or automatic that feat is just to display her amazing resilience.  
Also its a comicbook, comic art doesn't always resemble real life objects.  

And since you chose to ignore it or something i'm posting this again: 
 
      

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Look at the scan above carefully.  
In the upper scan where she punches the shooter the bullet has not passed the half way mark (you can see it as a cyclinder shape object moving nearing the man with glasses's head from the back. In the lower scan it finally passes the guy with glasses. it still has not reached her starting position. She is moving faster than the bullet or she wouldn't be able to cross the distance faster than the damn bullet did. So answer me this: Karate Kid and Batman are classed as peak human. Yet both have dodged bullets (batman not nearly as often as cassandra) . Does that mean the feat is thrown out? Karate Kid has shattered a 50 000 ton ice sheet with a punch. Redirected a bltizing mon-el to another solar system and dodged lighting (real lightning from the sky) and toyed with silver age superboy. He does things like this consistently. So every appearance is PIS? Because "no way a human can do that". This is a comic book so i don't see why that matters here. Just because she is not classed as superhuman doesn't mean she cannot perform superhuman feats. Captain America does it all the time. Half the things batman does in one night should land him in a coma by morning and with the amount of sleep he gets its a wonder how he's not a vegetable yet. 
 
Yes it has been mentioned she has superhuman powers:  
 

    But even if it hasn't does that mean she all those feats are uncounted? Karate Kid is classed as peak human but he dodged Mon-els heat vision by simply evading the ways and was toying with him (mon el was mind controlled at the time).  As for the rest of your argument it looks like you've completely ignored that Batgirl can read the movements of people. She knows any move x-23 will make and what she is thinking before x-23 does. And no matter how you try to downplay her speed, she has the speed to outright avoid any of her moves if needed. x-23 is more of a brawler, Cassandra is more refined and skilled. At the age of 9 she ripped a man's throat out of his body (something i know x-23 can't heal from) with her bare hands. This was her first kill. Also i posted that scan of her stopping the man's heart because yes, i doubt x-23 can heal form an injury like that. dead is dead. This argument of 'x-23 has this or that killing move' while ignoring all of Cassandra's training in learning how to kill humans as quickly as possible. Both are the same set of offensive. WHile x-23 can claw out cassandra's neck (which i doubt she's fast enough to do that and seeing how Cassandra already knows what moves she is about to make before she even makes them), or rake her heart out of stab her head or slit her throat out. Cassandra has the same amount of offensive power on her side. With her batarangs yes she can cause massive head trauma to x-23 (which is the hardest to heal from). With her fists alone she took down a superhuman (who was was completely bullet proof aka he doesn't feet a bullet shot to the head and the bullet bounces off) and when she punched him on the head he said that was hurting him. With her skill she can stop her heart or rip out her throat.  x-23 has no superhuman durability feat to speak to avoid this. Also it is mentioned cain has information on everything about x-23. ergo she knows about her healing factor/enhanced durability and claws and would have come up with ways to get past them. She has experience with dealing with durable/ fast healing metahumans before as well as prolific assassin training Both have great offensive skills. But x-23's consistent combat speed is not matching up to cain's. Using move prediction alone she has evaded all of batman's attacks during training (both were going all out) and proceeded to completely own and outclass him. Cassandra's defensive has an edge to x-23 who allows herself to get hit due to the presence of a healing factor.  Cassandra knows the moves to be made and the tactic x-23 wants to use and can avoid it. She's not going to allow herself to get clawed if she saw it coming and has the ability to evade it.Her consistent combat speed is faster than anything i've seen from x-23. At the very least she is on par with her.   Without the blade with only batarangs (or her fists) she is capable of holding her own with x-23 but could eventually win. With the blade its a definite win 10/10. 

@Lance Uppercut: Iron Fist is Super human technically.  He's called "Iron Fist" for a reason....not literally though.

@cascadeking09 said:
No, Superhuman would imply she outperforms people who are regularly incredibly fast. Daredevil can dodge bullets too. So can Iron Fist, etc. Sure, they're fast, but not superhuman. He didn't turn to slice her, otherwise he would have been facing her cape when he slashed at her. Notice how he has to turn his head to see her going, once again, in a completely different direction. "My ground." So no, they weren't going in the same direction, she just went a different way to quote "Bring the fight to my terms." Sure, he was still trapping her, but he was trying to lead her in a completely different direction. How did he miss her if he caught her legs... in the net? So no, he didn't miss anything. 

@cascadeking09: Actually Muramasa doesnt really technically get rid of your healing factor.  It stops the healing factor from affecting the area of the injury.  If Laura had a brick thrown at her head by Cass and then a lil nick on her foot or ear or w/e by Cass with Muramasa. The brick injury will heal first and then the nick.

@cascadeking09 said:

We've been over that. The damage will heal that doesn't mean she can't be knocked out or even hurt for that matter. For her to accumulate damage she would have to be able to land SEVERAL powerful blows or several deep cuts. And Cass is very highly durable, if Laura stabbed her through a vital organ maybe that would put her down, but Cass being prepped and knowing fully what Laura is capable of I doubt she would let something like that happen  

  Does she have a choice? If she's been tagged by people like Nightwing and Batman who are slower than Laura?

@daak1212 said:

@Lance Uppercut: Iron Fist is Super human technically.  He's called "Iron Fist" for a reason....not literally though.

In striking power, absolutely. 

@Lance Uppercut said:

@cascadeking09 said:
No, Superhuman would imply she outperforms people who are regularly incredibly fast. Daredevil can dodge bullets too. So can Iron Fist, etc. Sure, they're fast, but not superhuman. He didn't turn to slice her, otherwise he would have been facing her cape when he slashed at her. Notice how he has to turn his head to see her going, once again, in a completely different direction. "My ground." So no, they weren't going in the same direction, she just went a different way to quote "Bring the fight to my terms." Sure, he was still trapping her, but he was trying to lead her in a completely different direction. How did he miss her if he caught her legs... in the net? So no, he didn't miss anything. 

Lol she does. The thing about them is Cass doesn't just dodge bullets. He did turn and it's clear, she was behind him then he turned around to cut her but she was already on the other side of him, then he turned back around. Why is that so hard to understand.

Look at her cape behind him in the first and second panel, then look at the next one. If she was already in front of him why would her cape be shown behind him and why is he facing backward instead of foward. If he was already facing foward then he would've been shown slashing to on his right side not his let. Even if you're saying that cape is in front of him then she still caught up to him and even passed him. Even so, it's a moot point, arguing she's not that fast because she was chasing after someone with superhuman speed who wasn't goiging his fastest, and still passed him doesn't mean she's not superhuman.  How did he miss her if he caught her legs? How did you miss someone when you're aiming for their entire body and only hit part of it? She was supposed to get caught in the net, that's what nets are for, nets are meant to just rap your legs up. Yes he did miss, lol your still missing the part where Slade has enhanced speed.

@difficlus said:

You can't have movement speed without some of traveling speed. It's not like she's fighting people while standing still and just blindly flailing her arms quickly. She actually has to be able to move and duck and dodge and in some cases, actually clear a distance in an speedy manner. So yes, you have in fact been making a claim that she does in fact have super human movement speed. Hell, half the scans you've posted are you trying to prove that point. You bring up Karate Kid as though it's supposed to mean something. He's damaged Kryptonians with his fists, among other ludicrous feats. If you really care to make a case that he's only peak human, then I would strongly disagree. Once again, automatic rifles can switch between automatic and -semi automatic functions. And he still hit his mark.   X-23 isn't a brawler whatsoever. Don't mistake having claws with her being exactly like Wolverine. She's tactical, smart, and knows how to play her opponents. Yes, she can and does dodge things like gunfire, strikes, etc contrary to what others might think. She doesn't have the luxury of a full skeleton made of adamantium, thus she has to be able to move. It's not as though she just sits around and soaks up damage Cass can hit her with as many batarangs as she'd like, she can try to rip her throat out (which if you'd like to argue the effectiveness of it, go ahead, but there's no reason she couldn't heal from it despite the claim), and once again, if you want to go for the angle that she can stop her heart, please, feel free to prove that some attack like that would be effective against X. Jumping past bullets is great. Or it would be if we knew whether or not she was already in motion when it occurred. All it shows his him firing a gun and her having already leaped towards and punched the guy. It's your assumption that she's moving faster then the bullet.  X-23 assassinated some invisible bloke and had already been jumping towards him right when he fired the bullet and clawed him as the bullet passed her position. She didn't move faster then the bullet, and without context, I don't see why people are claiming Cain did either.   Why would either of them dodging a bullet be thrown out? Nearly every street leveler is quick enough to dodge bullets, from daredevil to batman to nightwing and back. Obviously both of them are fast enough to dodge bullets. But neither of them have to be faster than a bullet to do so. What are you basing X-23's combat speed off of? She's not faster than Cain, but she's more then fast enough to tag her. And sure, being able to read an opponents moves helps, but  Laura has a knack for studying and adapting to her opponents as well. Being able to read peoples body language doesn't mean she isn't going to be hit, and considering Laura doesn't go for glancing blows or soft slashes, and instead moves to targets that cripple or kill (tendons, arteries be it femoral, jugular, brachial, entire limbs, etc.) it only takes a few of those to be severed or damaged before Cass simply can't operate. Barring strikes from the Muramasa blade, her normal hand to hand techniques that she uses on thugs aren't going to be effective if Laura is dodging or ducking from them and coming with quick strikes of her own. Once again, stopping her heart or hitting her in that fashion remotely requires X-23 to do absolutely nothing to defend herself or do nothing to assault Cass at the same time. Unless she can do it and avoid a reach advantage provided by claws then she's going to get diced. 

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@cascadeking09: Because the Iron Fist's ability is super human.  Knocking out Collosus, Taking out a 100 foot tall monster, Barreling through a train by letting his chi get sucked up.  It's superhuman so lets no play that power vs speed thing.  Also what Muramasa blade is being used here?  The insane, but stat boosting thing or healing factor blade?

@daak1212 said:

@cascadeking09: Because the Iron Fist's ability is super human.  Knocking out Collosus, Taking out a 100 foot tall monster, Barreling through a train by letting his chi get sucked up.  It's superhuman so lets no play that power vs speed thing.  Also what Muramasa blade is being used here?  The insane, but stat boosting thing or healing factor blade?

We're not playing the strength vs speed thing, we're playing the superhuman is superhuman thing. I assumed that it was the healing factor blade,l but judging by the op's other posts it looks like it's that stat boosting one, I honestly didn't know there was a difference.

@difficlus: Being able to hit hard enough to crack a skull isnt super human by any means.  It's actually a reality for humans who have gone under extensive combat training.  Boxers, martial artist, and wrestlers all can do that.  Rampage Jackson has thrown hard enough that he actually had a higher force output than a carcrash.  Boxer's hit for 1400-1600 pounds which I think might be 200-400 more pounds than a human skull can withstand.  Ive seen a martial artist break a coconut with a strike which takes 200 more pounds than a skull, and then there's your people who smash cinder blocks for sport and then there's the people who smash ice with there hands and the list goes on and on.  It's not hard to accomplish some of these strength feats as it takes no only muscle strength but bone strength.  I have seen a video on Youtube of a small asian martial artist slapping someone with just a messily slap but you saw his bone indents on the guys skin.