@Cass has taken it to opponents that would put Laura down ie beating DS
Cassandra has never beaten Deathstroke and has admitted that he is faster and stronger than her, that she has problems reading his body language, and that he toys with her. Which is pretty consistent with both of their presentations and isn't a knock against her by any means.
Without the Muramasa blade Cassandra isn't winning this one. There's no way she's sneaking up on X-23 with X's enhanced senses, so forget about a sneak attack. In a fight, both are close enough in speed and skill that these won't be factors. But X-23 has the capacity to kill Cassandra with one hit; Cassandra doesn't have that going for her. X-23 also has a ridiculously potent healing factor, one that can heal grevious/fatal wounds in combat. X-23 also has a reach advantage with her claws. Pressure points won't be of much help to Cassandra since Wolverine has shown exceptional resistance to them in his Frank Miller mini (pressure points that would have killed a normal person just made him angry) and X-23 is his clone.
With Cassandra using the Muramasa blade it's really close and can go either way.
I disagree with that. Cass is just as skilled if not more skilled than Laura in h2h and the same goes for her speed, she also still has the ability to read body language so that makes it even more difficult for her to land a hit. And also there is no way that laura would kill her with one it, Cass is very durable. I think the muramasa blades just make this a sure win for her because if she can't heal she'll be much easier to put down and stay down for a wile.
Really? Because from what I've seen, she's not durable to withstand any sort of claw strike. Without the Muramasa blade she can't do any lasting damage before X manages to mangle her. With of course, it seems redundant. She needs the M-Blade to win either way.
Is X-23 really that durable? normal batarangs could slit x-23's throat.
Sure, it could. And Laura will heal. Cass unfortunately won't.
Losing lots of blood is bad for her, plus Cass knows this. I bet she takes her head off clean. Cass could probably fight with a slit throat. I've seen her shot 5 times (and through the heart) by a sniper (she took the bullets intentionally to protect a target behind her) and she still ran up to him and finished him. In terms of speed i think she could totally evade any claw attack. Fighting at her best she has moved faster than bullets. She took out a room of armed agents (30 or so) within...instantly. Her combat speed is amazing.
Really? Because from what I've seen, she's not durable to withstand any sort of claw strike. Without the Muramasa blade she can't do any lasting damage before X manages to mangle her. With of course, it seems redundant. She needs the M-Blade to win either way.
She's taken hits from superhumans before, she's survived being electrocuted and barley escaping an explosion, she's also been impaled and survived that too. Someone above mentioned something about her taking shots from a snipe but I haven't seen that for myself.
i also want to put out that she has dodged lightning before.
Before moving on to Cascade King, I'd like to note how ridiculous it is for anyone that's human, even with decent reflexes, to dodge lightning.
The only two that really seem applicable (since X-23 can't produce electricity or explosions) are the impalement and the snipers. Bullets, while powerful, are far different then say, claws that can eviscerate rather then passing through the body like a bullet. It's a raking motion. So it can and will cause large, open wounds.
Really? Because from what I've seen, she's not durable to withstand any sort of claw strike. Without the Muramasa blade she can't do any lasting damage before X manages to mangle her. With of course, it seems redundant. She needs the M-Blade to win either way.
She's taken hits from superhumans before, she's survived being electrocuted and barley escaping an explosion, she's also been impaled and survived that too. Someone above mentioned something about her taking shots from a snipe but I haven't seen that for myself.
i also want to put out that she has dodged lightning before.
Before moving on to Cascade King, I'd like to note how ridiculous it is for anyone that's human, even with decent reflexes, to dodge lightning. The only two that really seem applicable (since X-23 can't produce electricity or explosions) are the impalement and the snipers. Bullets, while powerful, are far different then say, claws that can eviscerate rather then passing through the body like a bullet. It's a raking motion. So it can and will cause large, open wounds.
Starting point She's already knocked the guy out before the bullet even passed the dude with glasses. Easily beyond human speed. She's Karate Kid level dude...that would be impressive for even spidey.
@Cass has taken it to opponents that would put Laura down ie beating DS
Cassandra has never beaten Deathstroke and has admitted that he is faster and stronger than her, that she has problems reading his body language, and that he toys with her. Which is pretty consistent with both of their presentations and isn't a knock against her by any means.
Without the Muramasa blade Cassandra isn't winning this one. There's no way she's sneaking up on X-23 with X's enhanced senses, so forget about a sneak attack. In a fight, both are close enough in speed and skill that these won't be factors. But X-23 has the capacity to kill Cassandra with one hit; Cassandra doesn't have that going for her. X-23 also has a ridiculously potent healing factor, one that can heal grevious/fatal wounds in combat. X-23 also has a reach advantage with her claws. Pressure points won't be of much help to Cassandra since Wolverine has shown exceptional resistance to them in his Frank Miller mini (pressure points that would have killed a normal person just made him angry) and X-23 is his clone.
With Cassandra using the Muramasa blade it's really close and can go either way.
I disagree with that. Cass is just as skilled if not more skilled than Laura in h2h and the same goes for her speed, she also still has the ability to read body language so that makes it even more difficult for her to land a hit. And also there is no way that laura would kill her with one it, Cass is very durable. I think the muramasa blades just make this a sure win for her because if she can't heal she'll be much easier to put down and stay down for a wile.
Really? Because from what I've seen, she's not durable to withstand any sort of claw strike. Without the Muramasa blade she can't do any lasting damage before X manages to mangle her. With of course, it seems redundant. She needs the M-Blade to win either way.
Is X-23 really that durable? normal batarangs could slit x-23's throat.
Sure, it could. And Laura will heal. Cass unfortunately won't.
Losing lots of blood is bad for her, plus Cass knows this. I bet she takes her head off clean. Cass could probably fight with a slit throat. I've seen her shot 5 times (and through the heart) by a sniper (she took the bullets intentionally to protect a target behind her) and she still ran up to him and finished him. In terms of speed i think she could totally evade any claw attack. Fighting at her best she has moved faster than bullets. She took out a room of armed agents (30 or so) within...instantly. Her combat speed is amazing.
I doubt she does anything of the sort. Getting shot through the heart any number of times should logically down anyone without a healing factor. Coupled simply with the act of running would cause sever blood loss that defies imagination. It's similar to X-23 still operating after she had been shot in the head. It's beyond belief. How far away was the sniper? X-23 has managed to take trained agents that had her in a line of sight down in a few pages in a much bigger space. Fighting in the room Cassandra was in creates a bit of a bottle effect. Less room to adeptly maneuver or raise weapons. One of the agents even had a good bit of distance, which X-23 closed in a single panel , where she then proceeded to pick up the agents sniper rifle, and then put a bullet in the head of a helicopter pilot.
@CitizenBane: wait, so the fight takes place in the Batcave? i gotta give it to Cass, she has home field advantage, knows of a potential attack, and not to add that she's better trained in the art of combat
@Cass has taken it to opponents that would put Laura down ie beating DS
Cassandra has never beaten Deathstroke and has admitted that he is faster and stronger than her, that she has problems reading his body language, and that he toys with her. Which is pretty consistent with both of their presentations and isn't a knock against her by any means.
Without the Muramasa blade Cassandra isn't winning this one. There's no way she's sneaking up on X-23 with X's enhanced senses, so forget about a sneak attack. In a fight, both are close enough in speed and skill that these won't be factors. But X-23 has the capacity to kill Cassandra with one hit; Cassandra doesn't have that going for her. X-23 also has a ridiculously potent healing factor, one that can heal grevious/fatal wounds in combat. X-23 also has a reach advantage with her claws. Pressure points won't be of much help to Cassandra since Wolverine has shown exceptional resistance to them in his Frank Miller mini (pressure points that would have killed a normal person just made him angry) and X-23 is his clone.
With Cassandra using the Muramasa blade it's really close and can go either way.
I disagree with that. Cass is just as skilled if not more skilled than Laura in h2h and the same goes for her speed, she also still has the ability to read body language so that makes it even more difficult for her to land a hit. And also there is no way that laura would kill her with one it, Cass is very durable. I think the muramasa blades just make this a sure win for her because if she can't heal she'll be much easier to put down and stay down for a wile.
Really? Because from what I've seen, she's not durable to withstand any sort of claw strike. Without the Muramasa blade she can't do any lasting damage before X manages to mangle her. With of course, it seems redundant. She needs the M-Blade to win either way.
Is X-23 really that durable? normal batarangs could slit x-23's throat.
Sure, it could. And Laura will heal. Cass unfortunately won't.
Losing lots of blood is bad for her, plus Cass knows this. I bet she takes her head off clean. Cass could probably fight with a slit throat. I've seen her shot 5 times (and through the heart) by a sniper (she took the bullets intentionally to protect a target behind her) and she still ran up to him and finished him. In terms of speed i think she could totally evade any claw attack. Fighting at her best she has moved faster than bullets. She took out a room of armed agents (30 or so) within...instantly. Her combat speed is amazing.
I doubt she does anything of the sort. Getting shot through the heart any number of times should logically down anyone without a healing factor. Coupled simply with the act of running would cause sever blood loss that defies imagination. It's similar to X-23 still operating after she had been shot in the head. It's beyond belief. How far away was the sniper? X-23 has managed to take trained agents that had her in a line of sight down in a few pages in a much bigger space. Fighting in the room Cassandra was in creates a bit of a bottle effect. Less room to adeptly maneuver or raise weapons. One of the agents even had a good bit of distance, which X-23 closed in a single panel , where she then proceeded to pick up the agents sniper rifle, and then put a bullet in the head of a helicopter pilot.
sniper was 10-20 feet away. Nice feats from x-23 too. However batgirl routinely dodges bullets AFTER they have been fired. I've seen x-23 tagged by arrows. once a bullet was less than a feet away and she moved out of the way with ease. She's peak human but IMO she's moving like karate kid with that tag. proof?: My mistake not the heart. But very impressive still.
@Cass has taken it to opponents that would put Laura down ie beating DS
Cassandra has never beaten Deathstroke and has admitted that he is faster and stronger than her, that she has problems reading his body language, and that he toys with her. Which is pretty consistent with both of their presentations and isn't a knock against her by any means.
Without the Muramasa blade Cassandra isn't winning this one. There's no way she's sneaking up on X-23 with X's enhanced senses, so forget about a sneak attack. In a fight, both are close enough in speed and skill that these won't be factors. But X-23 has the capacity to kill Cassandra with one hit; Cassandra doesn't have that going for her. X-23 also has a ridiculously potent healing factor, one that can heal grevious/fatal wounds in combat. X-23 also has a reach advantage with her claws. Pressure points won't be of much help to Cassandra since Wolverine has shown exceptional resistance to them in his Frank Miller mini (pressure points that would have killed a normal person just made him angry) and X-23 is his clone.
With Cassandra using the Muramasa blade it's really close and can go either way.
I disagree with that. Cass is just as skilled if not more skilled than Laura in h2h and the same goes for her speed, she also still has the ability to read body language so that makes it even more difficult for her to land a hit. And also there is no way that laura would kill her with one it, Cass is very durable. I think the muramasa blades just make this a sure win for her because if she can't heal she'll be much easier to put down and stay down for a wile.
Really? Because from what I've seen, she's not durable to withstand any sort of claw strike. Without the Muramasa blade she can't do any lasting damage before X manages to mangle her. With of course, it seems redundant. She needs the M-Blade to win either way.
Is X-23 really that durable? normal batarangs could slit x-23's throat.
Sure, it could. And Laura will heal. Cass unfortunately won't.
Losing lots of blood is bad for her, plus Cass knows this. I bet she takes her head off clean. Cass could probably fight with a slit throat. I've seen her shot 5 times (and through the heart) by a sniper (she took the bullets intentionally to protect a target behind her) and she still ran up to him and finished him. In terms of speed i think she could totally evade any claw attack. Fighting at her best she has moved faster than bullets. She took out a room of armed agents (30 or so) within...instantly. Her combat speed is amazing.
I doubt she does anything of the sort. Getting shot through the heart any number of times should logically down anyone without a healing factor. Coupled simply with the act of running would cause sever blood loss that defies imagination. It's similar to X-23 still operating after she had been shot in the head. It's beyond belief. How far away was the sniper? X-23 has managed to take trained agents that had her in a line of sight down in a few pages in a much bigger space. Fighting in the room Cassandra was in creates a bit of a bottle effect. Less room to adeptly maneuver or raise weapons. One of the agents even had a good bit of distance, which X-23 closed in a single panel , where she then proceeded to pick up the agents sniper rifle, and then put a bullet in the head of a helicopter pilot.
sniper was 10-20 feet away. Nice feats from x-23 too. However batgirl routinely dodges bullets AFTER they have been fired. I've seen x-23 tagged by arrows. once a bullet was less than a feet away and she moved out of the way with ease. She's peak human but IMO she's moving like karate kid with that tag. proof?: My mistake not the heart. But very impressive still.
One could argue that X-23 doesn't routinely dodge bullets because well, she doesn't really have to. That being said, she's been able to keep up with Wolverine and Gambit routinely. I've seen Cassandra's bullet dodging. I had a feeling that it wasn't the heart. Still, it seems like most of the shots were only really put in to her when she was incredibly close. One in her arm, and then in the next panel we see her in, three in assorted lower extremities. I don't actually see any exit wounds, and that's not really a sniper rifle, it looks like a machine gun with a scope. While cool, it doesn't seem like her suit would offer her much protection if she were to get hit.
@difficlus: I suppose she could try. However, pinning a common thug and pinning someone like X-23, who's liable to cut a limb off in the attempt seems unwise.
@Lance Uppercut: Machine gun? He fired a single shot. Can a machine gun do that? I'm pretty sure its a sniper. Anyway i posted a second scan showing how close he was. Never was an argument for her durability. I was pointing out her resilience, she took a bullet to the back from her dad without so much as flinching. In fact her training included been beaten if - after been shot- she showed any sign of discomfort. So that's all i was pointing out.
This level of combat speed (easily supersonic) and skill (stopping hearts like that and predicting an opponents moves and reading their mind) all while batman noted what she would be moving even faster if she wasn't been careful not to Kill her opponents (he commented that she is actually been gentle on those she is attacking and taking care not to harm them seriously). So i think she not only out-maneuvers x-23 but kills her extremely quickly. Morals are still on for x-23 (whatever that means). Heck all this makes me want to start a respect thread for Cassandra cain...lol.
my entire argument is being made with a case of her with only batarangs. With these muramasa blades i'm sure its nearly a stomp. a swipe to the neck and she keeps the head as paperweight.
@difficlus: From that staff thing? I don't really consider that as lightning dodging, but close to it.
people say ravager dodging statics bolts is lightning dodging so...this should be counted too right?
I don't agree with those people either, but I definitely wouldn't count one and not the other. @difficlus said:
sniper was 10-20 feet away. Nice feats from x-23 too. However batgirl routinely dodges bullets AFTER they have been fired. I've seen x-23 tagged by arrows. once a bullet was less than a feet away and she moved out of the way with ease. She's peak human but IMO she's moving like karate kid with that tag. proof?: My mistake not the heart. But very impressive still.
EDIT: HEre is the starting position of this scan.
Thanks. I forgot about that. That's in one of the really really early issues, right? Like issue 4 or 5 or something?
@Lance Uppercut: Machine gun? He fired a single shot. Can a machine gun do that? I'm pretty sure its a sniper. Anyway i posted a second scan showing how close he was. Never was an argument for her durability. I was pointing out her resilience, she took a bullet to the back from her dad without so much as flinching. In fact her training included been beaten if - after been shot- she showed any sign of discomfort. So that's all i was pointing out. This level of combat speed (easily supersonic) and skill (stopping hearts like that and predicting an opponents moves and reading their mind) all while batman noted what she would be moving even faster if she wasn't been careful not to Kill her opponents (he commented that she is actually been gentle on those she is attacking and taking care not to harm them seriously). So i think she not only out-maneuvers x-23 but kills her extremely quickly. Morals are still on for x-23 (whatever that means). Heck all this makes me want to start a respect thread for Cassandra cain...lol. my entire argument is being made with a case of her with only batarangs. With these muramasa blades i'm sure its nearly a stomp. a swipe to the neck and she keeps the head as paperweight.
One shot? Because in the next panel, he hits her with three. At once. And considering the look of the gun, it doesn't resemble any sort of sniper rifle. And yes, automatic rifles can switch between semi-automatic and full automatic selections. So it's more of a pain tolerance thing anyway. It's never been stated that she has any sort of super sonic speed. I would imagine that at least on person would have mentioned it if she had some kind of power. She's peak human, yes, but supersonic is way overplaying it. While simultaneously downplaying X-23. An entire case made on batarangs isn't doing much considering being hit with a batarang isn't going to kill X-23. On the other hand, being stabbed and clawed repeatedly by X-23 is going to devastate Cassandra whether she feels outward discomfort or not. Sh'e not as nice when it comes to going easy on opponents for any reason. Slicing open throats, stabbing people in the head, snapping necks. She can only keep up an assault for so long before she becomes fatigued. X-23 has the luxury of excellent healing as well as incredible training and a deadlier set of weapons. Without the muramasa blade, that healing factor is going to be the biggest game changer. Because most of Cassandra's killshots aren't going to be nearly as effective on Laura.
@Lance Uppercut: Her speed is superhuman, some mused that she might be a metahuman because she moves so fast. And I think you're underestimating Cass or overestimating Laura. She can try as hard as she wants to slice Cass, but she wont her more than a few times. Cass has great speed and she can also read her body language and tell what she will do before she does it.
@difficlus: After seeing the starting position from the guy with the machine gun and Cass, I'd actually say that X-23 displayed greater speed. X-23 started in a similar position (I'd say about the same distance, actually) and he gunner never got off a shot, despite being behind her with plenty of time to raise his gun.
@Lance Uppercut: Her speed is superhuman, some mused that she might be a metahuman because she moves so fast. And I think you're underestimating Cass or overestimating Laura. She can try as hard as she wants to slice Cass, but she wont her more than a few times. Cass has great speed and she can also read her body language and tell what she will do before she does it.
I doubt she's metahuman, or she wouldn't get tagged by people like Monsieur Mallah or be unable to catch Deathstroke.
@Lance Uppercut: Lol, but that's abc logic. She's not metahuman but her speed is obviously above that of any normal human. Deathstroke also has enhanced perception and reaction on top of being able to control his body on a molecular level. She's also not used to reacting to people that she can't read. In the issue you're talking about she even says that he's "not even close" to being too fast for her to react to.
@cascadeking09: I'm not saying that because Mallah can hit her that X-23 can. She couldn't read him because his body was different from a humans. When he became angry, it was easier. But even then she was blindsided by Gemini and the numbers game got to her. If her reaction speeds couple with that kind of combat speed were real, she would have been able to dispatch them. She clearly had no issue hurting Mallah in the next issue after she studied him, so it's not like her hits didn't effect him. She simply didn't have the tools. Deathstrokes reaction time has nothing to do with movement speed. In a chase on foot, she simply couldn't catch him. And this was him toying with her. She's not metahuman in speed.
@Lance Uppercut: That same issue where she got electrocuted in. Gemini's powers don't help either, she got her tied up while Cass was preoccupied with Mallah and then she was electrocuted and left in the boat to die. I don't see what any of that has to do with her speed and I also don't see how this makes her not displaying that speed in ONE more important than how she's been shown in the 60 issues before and most of everything that came after. How can she dispatch someone when she's tied up and then electrocuted? Yes it does, you said she shouldn't be unable to catch Deathstroke, but Slade himself has enhanced speed and she has trouble tagging him because his enhanced perception and reaction allows him to react better than she could to him. She wasn't too slow, he had a head start BY LEAVING HER IN AN EXPLODING BUILDING and then still ended up getting passed by her. " I change the game. Take the lead." I don't see how any of that disproves her speed when she's been shown doing that much.
@Lance Uppercut: That same issue where she got electrocuted in. Gemini's powers don't help either, she got her tied up while Cass was preoccupied with Mallah and then she was electrocuted and left in the boat to die. I don't see what any of that has to do with her speed and I also don't see how this makes her not displaying that speed in ONE more important than how she's been shown in the 60 issues before and most of everything that came after. How can she dispatch someone when she's tied up and then electrocuted? Yes it does, you said she shouldn't be unable to catch Deathstroke, but Slade himself has enhanced speed and she has trouble tagging him because his enhanced perception and reaction allows him to react better than she could to him. She wasn't too slow, he had a head start BY LEAVING HER IN AN EXPLODING BUILDING and then still ended up getting passed by her. " I change the game. Take the lead." I don't see how any of that disproves her speed when she's been shown doing that much.
How does it not? If the argument is that her combat speed and reflexes are so superhumanly acute, then fighting Mallah (who isn't as fast) and being distracted by him, long enough to get blindsided from a completely separate opponent that isn't as fast (and had been previously set on fire) doesn't really speak well. And no, it still doesn't. Yes, Deathstroke has enhanced speed. Yes, Deathstroke was also toying with her. And once more, still couldn't catch up to him to take him down. She even noted that he could have been faster. It's not as though those are the only two incidents. They just happened to be the most prevalent (I was reading her fights with Deathstroke again and the fight against Mallah and Gemini happened to be in the same file.) And her taking the lead? Happened to be her turning in a different direction, and he STILL caught her with a net gun. The only reason he didn't do more was because he wanted Ravager to. Not that it went well.
-Cassandra certainly has impressive durability but it really isn't anything close to what X-23's is. For example, the scan above where she gets shot and still takes out the sniper, what was left out is that afterwards she collapsed and had to be revived in the Batcave. Taking out the shooter was the last act she accomplished before she passed out, she was not able to continue fighting. X-23, by comparison, would be good to go moments after being shot, something that is relatively minor for her.
-The scan of Cassandra dodging a bullet is cool but it really isn't something she CONSISTENTLY does, proof of that being the scan of... her getting shot, which was used as proof of her durability. In her fights with Nightwing, Deathstroke, Batman, Shiva, Joker, Robin, etc. she has not overwhelmed her opponents with superspeed in the way even a low-level superspeedster does on a CONSISTENT basis. Batman has moved faster than bullets on multiple occasions and while that looks cool I don't think he consistently is portrayed as someone who has that level of speed. Same goes for when he survives getting punched by Superman or Darkseid, etc. Comparatively, X-23 CONSISTENTLY has a very powerful healing factor, it's not something that hows up in one story and is gone in the next. So I don't see Cassandra overwhelming X-23 in speed, and claims that X-23 would be moving in slow motion to Cassandra don't make sense.
-Stopping someone's heart with a pressure point is cool but I don't see that happening to X-23 since again, Wolverine (and by extension X-23 his genetic clone) has shown superhuman resistance to pressure points. It was also done against a no-name mook who presumably doesn't have the skill to block such an attack but irregardless it shouldn't work on X-23.
-Again, with the Muramasa blade it's pretty much even. But without the blade, Cassandra simply doesn't have the durability to withstand X-23's claws and doesn't have the raw offensive power to overcome X-23's healing factor.
@Lance Uppercut: Because 1. this is one instance not several 2. she was surprised by Mallah not knowing that she wouldn't be able to read him and got hit once (mallah isn't just some regular person he's very strong) then while fighting him the opponent that she had already put down interferes. If this, I repeat, one instance is supposed to mean that she isn't superhuman then I guess this one writer knows more about Cass than all the others. Yes she did catch up to him and went passed him and did you forget to mention the part where he took off when the floor collapsed underneath her and she was left in a burning building? She said "He's faster than this. He's toying with me." then she runs jumps over him "I change the game. Take the lead." He shot at her she dodge then the net thing came HE MISSED and she ran into the wall trying to avoid it, then she took his sword away from him.
None of this says anything about her not being superhuman, the first is her in a one on one fight getting caught from behind and the other his her fighting someone else who has superhuman speed.
Here's the whole thing so that you can see.
Gallery
Notice in the first scan he's already taken off while she's buried under a pile of rubble and in the second she's already caught up, which you said she still could not do, then avoids his attack and runs ahead of him.
@Lance Uppercut: Because 1. this is one instance not several 2. she was surprised by Mallah not knowing that she wouldn't be able to read him and got hit once (mallah isn't just some regular person he's very strong) then while fighting him the opponent that she had already put down interferes. If this, I repeat, one instance is supposed to mean that she isn't superhuman then I guess this one writer knows more about Cass than all the others. Yes she did catch up to him and went passed him and did you forget to mention the part where he took off when the floor collapsed underneath her and she was left in a burning building? She said "He's faster than this. He's toying with me." then she runs jumps over him "I change the game. Take the lead." He shot at her she dodge then the net thing came HE MISSED and she ran into the wall trying to avoid it, then she took his sword away from him.
None of this says anything about her not being superhuman, the first is her in a one on one fight getting caught from behind and the other his her fighting someone else who has superhuman speed.
Here's the whole thing so that you can see.
Gallery
Notice in the first scan he's already taken off while she's buried under a pile of rubble and in the second she's already caught up, which you said she still could not do, then avoids his attack and runs ahead of him.
But it hasn't been just one instance. You act as though she's never been hit by an opponent before, or simply shot. Which, well, she has. She couldn't read Mallah at the beginning, but once he became angry she even stated it was easier at that point. Notice that when he draws his sword and misses, he has to turn. She went in a different direction. If she'd just jumped over him, they would have continued in a linear path. He didn't miss her with the net either. It's clearly wrapped around the lower body in the fourth page, and then again he uses it to pull her in the fifth. She wasn't running trying to avoid it, she hit the wall because it caught her. And once again, she even states he's faster then that. It implies (to me at least) that he wanted her to chase him and had to slow down to do so. She took his sword from his waist and even had to use it to cut off the net.
Couple of points: -Cassandra certainly has impressive durability but it really isn't anything close to what X-23's is. For example, the scan above where she gets shot and still takes out the sniper, what was left out is that afterwards she collapsed and had to be revived in the Batcave. Taking out the shooter was the last act she accomplished before she passed out, she was not able to continue fighting. X-23, by comparison, would be good to go moments after being shot, something that is relatively minor for her. -The scan of Cassandra dodging a bullet is cool but it really isn't something she CONSISTENTLY does, proof of that being the scan of... her getting shot, which was used as proof of her durability. In her fights with Nightwing, Deathstroke, Batman, Shiva, Joker, Robin, etc. she has not overwhelmed her opponents with superspeed in the way even a low-level superspeedster does on a CONSISTENT basis. Batman has moved faster than bullets on multiple occasions and while that looks cool I don't think he consistently is portrayed as someone who has that level of speed. Same goes for when he survives getting punched by Superman or Darkseid, etc. Comparatively, X-23 CONSISTENTLY has a very powerful healing factor, it's not something that hows up in one story and is gone in the next. So I don't see Cassandra overwhelming X-23 in speed, and claims that X-23 would be moving in slow motion to Cassandra don't make sense. -Stopping someone's heart with a pressure point is cool but I don't see that happening to X-23 since again, Wolverine (and by extension X-23 his genetic clone) has shown superhuman resistance to pressure points. It was also done against a no-name mook who presumably doesn't have the skill to block such an attack but irregardless it shouldn't work on X-23. -Again, with the Muramasa blade it's pretty much even. But without the blade, Cassandra simply doesn't have the durability to withstand X-23's claws and doesn't have the raw offensive power to overcome X-23's healing factor.
Wrong, she wasn't worried about dodging the bullet and this was after she had her ability to read movements taken away so she wasn't sure of what she could do, she was rushing to save Batman. This was in the very early issues in issue 6 as a matter of fact, she was never once hit by a bullet again. Her speed has been shown that way consistently throught most of her career as Batgirl.
@Lance Uppercut: Because 1. this is one instance not several 2. she was surprised by Mallah not knowing that she wouldn't be able to read him and got hit once (mallah isn't just some regular person he's very strong) then while fighting him the opponent that she had already put down interferes. If this, I repeat, one instance is supposed to mean that she isn't superhuman then I guess this one writer knows more about Cass than all the others. Yes she did catch up to him and went passed him and did you forget to mention the part where he took off when the floor collapsed underneath her and she was left in a burning building? She said "He's faster than this. He's toying with me." then she runs jumps over him "I change the game. Take the lead." He shot at her she dodge then the net thing came HE MISSED and she ran into the wall trying to avoid it, then she took his sword away from him.
None of this says anything about her not being superhuman, the first is her in a one on one fight getting caught from behind and the other his her fighting someone else who has superhuman speed.
Here's the whole thing so that you can see.
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Notice in the first scan he's already taken off while she's buried under a pile of rubble and in the second she's already caught up, which you said she still could not do, then avoids his attack and runs ahead of him.
But it hasn't been just one instance. You act as though she's never been hit by an opponent before, or simply shot. Which, well, she has. She couldn't read Mallah at the beginning, but once he became angry she even stated it was easier at that point. Notice that when he draws his sword and misses, he has to turn. She went in a different direction. If she'd just jumped over him, they would have continued in a linear path. He didn't miss her with the net either. It's clearly wrapped around the lower body in the fourth page, and then again he uses it to pull her in the fifth. She wasn't running trying to avoid it, she hit the wall because it caught her. And once again, she even states he's faster then that. It implies (to me at least) that he wanted her to chase him and had to slow down to do so. She took his sword from his waist and even had to use it to cut off the net.
She hasn't, she's been tagged and it's not easy to just tag her. She's also only been shot maybe once and that's about it. Being hit does not mean you lack superhuman speed.You have it wrong, she caught up to him then he turns around to slice her and she jumps over him and keeps going. He's the one who turned around not her. He did miss her with the net, it was meant to catch her, but only got her legs. Moving faster than someone with enhanced speed who isn't moving at their fastest is very vague and doesn't at all say she doesn't have superhuman speed.
I think the gun in the scan was a SMG. Regardless Cass dodges bullets but not after they're fired, she anticipates the shooter so she's probably not superhuman or above human in terms of speed, she's PEAK HUMAN. Having it in the Batcave is kinda weird too. I'm gonna say X-23 wins in the majority of cases unless Cass has a Muramasa.
Cass with Muramasa 10/10. Cass without Muramasa - Laura wins 8/10 unless Cass can knock her unconscious or incapacitate her any other way.
Wrong, she wasn't worried about dodging the bullet and this was after she had her ability to read movements taken away so she wasn't sure of what she could do, she was rushing to save Batman. This was in the very early issues in issue 6 as a matter of fact, she was never once hit by a bullet again. Her speed has been shown that way consistently throught most of her career as Batgirl.
The way I remember it, she was standing between a shooter and another attacker. The shooter decided to shoot at her, not caring if the attacker was behind her was hit by stray bullets. So she charged the attacker, getting shot in the process before taking him out. This displays courage but not superspeed. If she had superspeed, she'd have been able to take out the attacker before he fired...
Also, why would her losing her body reading affect her speed at all? The writers made a point of her having problems without the body reading - getting casually smacked around by batman in a training bout, the above incident - none of which would have been a problem if she had superspeed.
And again, she never showed superspeed in any of her fights against Shiva, Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Joker, Deathstroke, etc. So I don't consider her to consistently show the level of speed implied in the bullet-dodging scan above - just the opposite, in fact. Which is pretty standard for comics, since again Batman has literally blocked bullets after they've been fired on occasion and he's not attributed with superspeed either, not with superhuman durability despite on occasion surviving blows from Kryptonians or Darkseid.
And it's not like X-23 is a slouch in the speed department. She has overwhelmed multiple opponents at once on more than one occasion. So I don't see speed being such a factor in this. However, X-23's superior offensive output and ability to heal mortal wounds during combat are.
And again, she never showed superspeed in any of her fights against Shiva, Batman, Robin, Knightwing, Joker, Deathstroke, etc. So I don't consider her to consistently show the level of speed implied in the bullet-dodging scan above - just the opposite, in fact. Which is pretty standard for comics, since again Batman has literally blocked bullets after they've been fired on occasion and he's not attributed with superspeed either, not with superhuman durability despite on occasion surviving blows from Kryptonians or Darkseid. And it's not like X-23 is a slouch in the speed department. She has overwhelmed multiple opponents at once on more than one occasion. So I don't see speed being such a factor in this. However, X-23's superior offensive output and ability to heal mortal wounds during combat are.
Wrong, she wasn't worried about dodging the bullet and this was after she had her ability to read movements taken away so she wasn't sure of what she could do, she was rushing to save Batman. This was in the very early issues in issue 6 as a matter of fact, she was never once hit by a bullet again. Her speed has been shown that way consistently throught most of her career as Batgirl.
The way I remember it, she was standing between a shooter and another attacker. The shooter decided to shoot at her, not caring if the attacker was behind her was hit by stray bullets. So she charged the attacker, getting shot in the process before taking him out. This displays courage but not superspeed. If she had superspeed, she'd have been able to take out the attacker before he fired... Also, why would her losing her body reading affect her speed at all? The writers made a point of her having problems without the body reading - getting casually smacked around by batman in a training bout, the above incident - none of which would have been a problem if she had superspeed. And again, she never showed superspeed in any of her fights against Shiva, Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Joker, Deathstroke, etc. So I don't consider her to consistently show the level of speed implied in the bullet-dodging scan above - just the opposite, in fact. Which is pretty standard for comics, since again Batman has literally blocked bullets after they've been fired on occasion and he's not attributed with superspeed either, not with superhuman durability despite on occasion surviving blows from Kryptonians or Darkseid. And it's not like X-23 is a slouch in the speed department. She has overwhelmed multiple opponents at once on more than one occasion. So I don't see speed being such a factor in this. However, X-23's superior offensive output and ability to heal mortal wounds during combat are.
No she ran at him not sure of what she could do without being able to read her opponent. She charged at him because she didn't have enough time to keep thinking about it. She also mentioned that she was afraid to use nerve strikes and things like that because she my kill them. She's never been shown as too slow to dodge a bullet again.
I didn't say it effected her speed, but she wasn't sure of what she could do without it just like with the nerve strikes so instead thinking anymore on whether or not she could do it she just charged through. She's not use to reacting to anything without being able to read, she doesn't just use her speed. That's why she got hit because she was still learning to react like normal people do.
Deathstroke, Shiva, and Batman are all faster than normal people she never went all out with Robin or Nightwing and I'm not sure if she's ever even been hit by the joker I don't remember anything like that. Deathstroke has enhanced speed too, why bring him up at all? Shiva is pretty much the same, they both have speed that regular people don't have. Batman does that but not all the time, Cass does this regularly.
Never said she was but Cassandra's speed is more than comparable to hers and her ability to read body language.
@difficlus: After seeing the starting position from the guy with the machine gun and Cass, I'd actually say that X-23 displayed greater speed. X-23 started in a similar position (I'd say about the same distance, actually) and he gunner never got off a shot, despite being behind her with plenty of time to raise his gun.
I never said she has superhuman running speed here. That scan was posted to display her resilience. All throughout her series she has been stopping people with guns whose hands were already on the trigger finger and about to fire while a distance away. What x-23 has done so has cassandra. So again that scan was not posted to display her speed. I can post speed if i want. It has been stated in the series that her speed (running) is borderline human. Its her aggregate speed (combat speed) that is superhuman. Much like Midnighter in wildstorm. Running speed is about twice as fast as a human. But his combat speed...he has been shown to bltizes speedsters and even tagged a blitzing apollo. Also in that scan Cassandra had her speed (running and aggregate) cut down by half due to not even having her power. Running/travel speed and combat ( moving ) speed are different.
@Lance Uppercut
said:
@cascadeking09 said:
@Lance Uppercut: Her speed is superhuman, some mused that she might be a metahuman because she moves so fast. And I think you're underestimating Cass or overestimating Laura. She can try as hard as she wants to slice Cass, but she wont her more than a few times. Cass has great speed and she can also read her body language and tell what she will do before she does it.
I doubt she's metahuman, or she wouldn't get tagged by people like Monsieur Mallah or be unable to catch Deathstroke.
Both who are superhuman also... -___- So what does that point trying to prove. She was tagged by superhumans and hence she MUST be just a human?
@cascadeking09
: Yes early in her series
@Lance Uppercut
said:
One shot? Because in the next panel, he hits her with three. At once. And considering the look of the gun, it doesn't resemble any sort of sniper rifle. And yes, automatic rifles can switch between semi-automatic and full automatic selections. So it's more of a pain tolerance thing anyway. It's never been stated that she has any sort of super sonic speed. I would imagine that at least on person would have mentioned it if she had some kind of power. She's peak human, yes, but supersonic is way overplaying it. While simultaneously downplaying X-23. An entire case made on batarangs isn't doing much considering being hit with a batarang isn't going to kill X-23. On the other hand, being stabbed and clawed repeatedly by X-23 is going to devastate Cassandra whether she feels outward discomfort or not. Sh'e not as nice when it comes to going easy on opponents for any reason. Slicing open throats, stabbing people in the head, snapping necks. She can only keep up an assault for so long before she becomes fatigued. X-23 has the luxury of excellent healing as well as incredible training and a deadlier set of weapons. Without the muramasa blade, that healing factor is going to be the biggest game changer. Because most of Cassandra's killshots aren't going to be nearly as effective on Laura.
He fired one shot first. Then the sound of the other three shots coming off sounds like they are been fired individually. "snikt..snikt...snikt". If it was an automatic rifle it would be "bllaaaaam" to imply rapid fire as was done for the majority of the time in the series. Whether sniper or automatic that feat is just to display her amazing resilience. Also its a comicbook, comic art doesn't always resemble real life objects.
And since you chose to ignore it or something i'm posting this again:
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Look at the scan above carefully. In the upper scan where she punches the shooter the bullet has not passed the half way mark (you can see it as a cyclinder shape object moving nearing the man with glasses's head from the back. In the lower scan it finally passes the guy with glasses. it still has not reached her starting position. She is moving faster than the bullet or she wouldn't be able to cross the distance faster than the damn bullet did. So answer me this: Karate Kid and Batman are classed as peak human. Yet both have dodged bullets (batman not nearly as often as cassandra) . Does that mean the feat is thrown out? Karate Kid has shattered a 50 000 ton ice sheet with a punch. Redirected a bltizing mon-el to another solar system and dodged lighting (real lightning from the sky) and toyed with silver age superboy. He does things like this consistently. So every appearance is PIS? Because "no way a human can do that". This is a comic book so i don't see why that matters here. Just because she is not classed as superhuman doesn't mean she cannot perform superhuman feats. Captain America does it all the time. Half the things batman does in one night should land him in a coma by morning and with the amount of sleep he gets its a wonder how he's not a vegetable yet.
Yes it has been mentioned she has superhuman powers:
But even if it hasn't does that mean she all those feats are uncounted? Karate Kid is classed as peak human but he dodged Mon-els heat vision by simply evading the ways and was toying with him (mon el was mind controlled at the time). As for the rest of your argument it looks like you've completely ignored that Batgirl can read the movements of people. She knows any move x-23 will make and what she is thinking before x-23 does. And no matter how you try to downplay her speed, she has the speed to outright avoid any of her moves if needed. x-23 is more of a brawler, Cassandra is more refined and skilled. At the age of 9 she ripped a man's throat out of his body (something i know x-23 can't heal from) with her bare hands. This was her first kill. Also i posted that scan of her stopping the man's heart because yes, i doubt x-23 can heal form an injury like that. dead is dead. This argument of 'x-23 has this or that killing move' while ignoring all of Cassandra's training in learning how to kill humans as quickly as possible. Both are the same set of offensive. WHile x-23 can claw out cassandra's neck (which i doubt she's fast enough to do that and seeing how Cassandra already knows what moves she is about to make before she even makes them), or rake her heart out of stab her head or slit her throat out. Cassandra has the same amount of offensive power on her side. With her batarangs yes she can cause massive head trauma to x-23 (which is the hardest to heal from). With her fists alone she took down a superhuman (who was was completely bullet proof aka he doesn't feet a bullet shot to the head and the bullet bounces off) and when she punched him on the head he said that was hurting him. With her skill she can stop her heart or rip out her throat. x-23 has no superhuman durability feat to speak to avoid this. Also it is mentioned cain has information on everything about x-23. ergo she knows about her healing factor/enhanced durability and claws and would have come up with ways to get past them. She has experience with dealing with durable/ fast healing metahumans before as well as prolific assassin training
Both have great offensive skills. But x-23's consistent combat speed is not matching up to cain's. Using move prediction alone she has evaded all of batman's attacks during training (both were going all out) and proceeded to completely own and outclass him. Cassandra's defensive has an edge to x-23 who allows herself to get hit due to the presence of a healing factor. Cassandra knows the moves to be made and the tactic x-23 wants to use and can avoid it. She's not going to allow herself to get clawed if she saw it coming and has the ability to evade it. Her consistent combat speed is faster than anything i've seen from x-23. At the very least she is on par with her.
Without the blade with only batarangs (or her fists) she is capable of holding her own with x-23 but could eventually win. With the blade its a definite win 10/10.
How many fight has Cass shown that bullet dodging speed in?
Nearly every one.
@Cochise
said:
@cascadeking09 said:
Wrong, she wasn't worried about dodging the bullet and this was after she had her ability to read movements taken away so she wasn't sure of what she could do, she was rushing to save Batman. This was in the very early issues in issue 6 as a matter of fact, she was never once hit by a bullet again. Her speed has been shown that way consistently throught most of her career as Batgirl.
The way I remember it, she was standing between a shooter and another attacker. The shooter decided to shoot at her, not caring if the attacker was behind her was hit by stray bullets. So she charged the attacker, getting shot in the process before taking him out. This displays courage but not superspeed. If she had superspeed, she'd have been able to take out the attacker before he fired... Also, why would her losing her body reading affect her speed at all? The writers made a point of her having problems without the body reading - getting casually smacked around by batman in a training bout, the above incident - none of which would have been a problem if she had superspeed. And again, she never showed superspeed in any of her fights against Shiva, Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Joker, Deathstroke, etc. So I don't consider her to consistently show the level of speed implied in the bullet-dodging scan above - just the opposite, in fact. Which is pretty standard for comics, since again Batman has literally blocked bullets after they've been fired on occasion and he's not attributed with superspeed either, not with superhuman durability despite on occasion surviving blows from Kryptonians or Darkseid. And it's not like X-23 is a slouch in the speed department. She has overwhelmed multiple opponents at once on more than one occasion. So I don't see speed being such a factor in this. However, X-23's superior offensive output and ability to heal mortal wounds during combat are.
No a man she was trying to protect was behind her. The bullet would fly through the wall and possibly kill him. In terms of combat speed all those you mentioned have feats of super human speed to speak of too. I posted a scan of cain taking out a room of armed agent and trying a hose around her body.
Both have the same level of offensive. cain has ripped a man's throat out of his body with her hand when she was 9. Punched a bulelt proof superhuman ( bullets bounce of his head and he doesn't feel a thing) on the head and caused him enough pain to make him collapse. I posted the heart stopping feat with a punch which x-23 has no way of healing from.
Cain has move prediction. Her defensive trumps x-23's. She knows any move x-23 is going to make and what she is thinking. She has the combat speed to avoid them (look at my previous post above to see her moving faster than a bullet). Here is here flooring a room of people, she does this is basically every battle she's in...
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batman noted what she would be moving even faster if she wasn't been careful not to Kill her opponents (he commented that she is actually been gentle on those she is attacking and taking care not to harm them seriously). Here is more floor wiping:
X-23's advantage in durability and weaponry would be somewhat offset by the speed, skill and agility of Cassandra, but it's not like Batgirl is impossible to tag. Robin managed to land multiple solid blows, and he's not a bullet-timer as far as I know.
As for Batgirl and Deathstroke, Green Arrow once beat Stroke in a swordfight.
And it's been kinda consistent that Cass is a better fighter in h2h than Stroke. I don't like using ABC logic cause it has it's fallacies but here I feel it's important. Laura and Cass can be considered equals in speed but really all Cass needs is one shot at Laura too, her entire skeleton isn't laced with adamantium and with no morals can lose limbs. Cass can also lose limbs but I hardly see her losing this fight. Cass has the reach with the blade and is a superior h2h fighter. Durability and healing are not advantages due to the M blade and this comes down to who hits first. I'll expand on this more when I get back from the gym later.
X-23's advantage in durability and weaponry would be somewhat offset by the speed, skill and agility of Cassandra, but it's not like Batgirl is impossible to tag. Robin managed to land multiple solid blows, and he's not a bullet-timer as far as I know. As for Batgirl and Deathstroke, Green Arrow once beat Stroke in a swordfight. If Cass gets tagged by Laura, she's dead.
I don't know how robin can land blows when his master bruce couldn't land them against cain...But ABC logic..blah...id never bring it in.
@difficlus: Exactly she's displayed that type of speed throught most of her on going and was never shown as too slow to dodge a bullet.
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I know some of those have already been posted I just wanted to show that she has tons of speed feats in just her on going and this doesn't even cover half. Some of those might be out of order too. @CitizenBane: Out of those there should be at least two of her leaving after images. Robin has only ever hit her through pis and when they were acting. Nightwing has hit her a few times but it's not an every day thing either and he himself admit that it's not easy to hit her. Green Arrow beating DS is probably pis, but I haven't read it so I can't be sure, he's fought Deathstroke after training with Natas and had help from Dinah and still couldn't beat him.
X-23's advantage in durability and weaponry would be somewhat offset by the speed, skill and agility of Cassandra, but it's not like Batgirl is impossible to tag. Robin managed to land multiple solid blows, and he's not a bullet-timer as far as I know. As for Batgirl and Deathstroke, Green Arrow once beat Stroke in a swordfight. If Cass gets tagged by Laura, she's dead.
I don't know how robin can land blows when his master bruce couldn't land them against cain...But ABC logic..blah...id never bring it in.
Actually Nightwing did, I have the scans. He landed a couple hits on her before Alfred broke them up
X-23's advantage in durability and weaponry would be somewhat offset by the speed, skill and agility of Cassandra, but it's not like Batgirl is impossible to tag. Robin managed to land multiple solid blows, and he's not a bullet-timer as far as I know. As for Batgirl and Deathstroke, Green Arrow once beat Stroke in a swordfight. If Cass gets tagged by Laura, she's dead.
I don't know how robin can land blows when his master bruce couldn't land them against cain...But ABC logic..blah...id never bring it in.
Actually Nightwing did, I have the scans. He landed a couple hits on her before Alfred broke them up
And he said its very hard to hit her. Bruce couldn't even land one when she used move prediction.
@difficlus: When you post them instead of stacking them go for the other option and it will allow people to click on them like above.. Hope that helps.
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