#1 Edited by Saren (25125 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals off for Cass, off for X-23. Cass has the Black muramasa blade. Who wins?

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#2 Posted by Morgaine_Levesque (2073 posts) - - Show Bio

What's the set up of the fight? Where does it take place? How close together are they when starting? Do they have any prior knowledge of each other's powers and abilities?

#3 Posted by Saren (25125 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morgaine_de_Bourbon said:
What's the set up of the fight? Where does it take place? How close together are they when starting? Do they have any prior knowledge of each other's powers and abilities?
Setup: X-23 is prowling through Wayne Manor. Cass is in the Batcave, monitoring her every movement, preparing for an ambush. She could pop out at any time. Cass knows about X-23's powers. X-23 only knows that Cass is a martial artist of some sort, and that she possesses the muramasa blades.
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#4 Edited by God_Spawn (38396 posts) - - Show Bio

Cass, more skilled no morals and Laura might not  be looking to kill in the beginning but if she knows Cass has the M blade it's a possibility she will. She might end up trying to kill her eventually but with the M blade and a few hits already taken place she will be at a disadvantage and probably have a few limbs missing possibly too.

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#5 Posted by Duo_forbidden (1119 posts) - - Show Bio

Cass will destroy Laura if she has the Muramasa blades.

#6 Posted by Saren (25125 posts) - - Show Bio

It's very hard to ambush Laura though, on account of her superhuman senses and stuff.

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#7 Posted by Mercy_ (91887 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane There's only so much her senses can do abouts meta-speed, though.
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#8 Posted by Saren (25125 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:
@CitizenBane There's only so much her senses can do abouts meta-speed, though.
Hm. I forgot that the muramasa blades augment the user. What if Laura was bloodlusted as well?
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#9 Posted by Mercy_ (91887 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@The Dark Huntress said:
@CitizenBane There's only so much her senses can do abouts meta-speed, though.
Hm. I forgot that the muramasa blades augment the user. What if Laura was bloodlusted as well?

Wasn't referring to anything the muramasa blades could do ;) If Laura was bloodlusted...I honestly don't know. She's an entirely different machine while bloodlusted like she is when exposed to the trigger scent.

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#10 Posted by Saren (25125 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:

@CitizenBane said:

@The Dark Huntress said:
@CitizenBane There's only so much her senses can do abouts meta-speed, though.
Hm. I forgot that the muramasa blades augment the user. What if Laura was bloodlusted as well?

Wasn't referring to anything the muramasa blades could do ;) If Laura was bloodlusted...I honestly don't know. She's an entirely different machine while bloodlusted like she is when exposed to the trigger scent.

Cass isn't a metahuman, though it seems like that since she could keep up with Deathstroke. The blades make the user faster and stronger though.
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#11 Posted by Duo_forbidden (1119 posts) - - Show Bio

If Laura was bloodlusted, they might end up killing each other possibly. Other then that, Cassandra can read body movement. Not to mention, if Cassandra is going into this fight without morals, she knows a couple of one hit kill moves.

#12 Posted by Mercy_ (91887 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane It's been stated on-panel that she has meta-human speed and she has the feats to back it up. Add the boost from the Muramasa blades and she should win. Bloodlusted is an entirely different matter, though.
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#13 Posted by Baltoro (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

X-23 is just a Wolverine lite.  Cassandra can beat her with a pocket knife even but if you give her the Muramasa blade she's gonna decapitate this kid.

#14 Posted by Saren (25125 posts) - - Show Bio
@Baltoro said:
X-23 is just a Wolverine lite.  Cassandra can beat her with a pocket knife even but if you give her the Muramasa blade she's gonna decapitate this kid.
A bloodlusted Laura? With a pocket knife? Really?
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#15 Posted by Baltoro (1116 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane said:
@Baltoro said:
X-23 is just a Wolverine lite.  Cassandra can beat her with a pocket knife even but if you give her the Muramasa blade she's gonna decapitate this kid.
A bloodlusted Laura? With a pocket knife? Really?
She won't even be able to touch Cassandra Cain so the pocket knife isnt even necessary.  Its a difference in skill.
#16 Posted by Saren (25125 posts) - - Show Bio
@Baltoro said:
@CitizenBane said:
@Baltoro said:
X-23 is just a Wolverine lite.  Cassandra can beat her with a pocket knife even but if you give her the Muramasa blade she's gonna decapitate this kid.
A bloodlusted Laura? With a pocket knife? Really?
She won't even be able to touch Cassandra Cain so the pocket knife isnt even necessary.  Its a difference in skill.
I can't for the life of me see how someone who has tagged Wolverine and Deadpool has a problem touching Blackbat.
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#17 Posted by daak1212 (7866 posts) - - Show Bio
@Baltoro said:
@CitizenBane said:
@Baltoro said:
X-23 is just a Wolverine lite.  Cassandra can beat her with a pocket knife even but if you give her the Muramasa blade she's gonna decapitate this kid.
A bloodlusted Laura? With a pocket knife? Really?
She won't even be able to touch Cassandra Cain so the pocket knife isnt even necessary.  Its a difference in skill.
That just sounds stupid. 
#18 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6626 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baltoro said:


                    X-23 is just a Wolverine lite.  Cassandra can beat her with a pocket knife even but if you give her the Muramasa blade she's gonna decapitate this kid.

                   

               

This fight and set-up are a little unfair IMO. Of course, Cass wins. She is a master at predicting her opponent's moves and arguably the better fighter. But X-23 has shown a similar ability when she dismantled Lady Deathstrike. She can pinpoint opponent's weaknesses. However, give Cass the murumasa blade and she neutralizes X-23's greatest asset ... her healing factor. This is why she wins I believe.
 
Though you are definitely exagerrating here. Take away the Muramasa and Cass loses IMO. Pocket knife? I don't think so.
#19 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1641 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII
Agreed its very unfair if you ask me , Murumassa and morals off and an ambush scenario that's a spite in my opinion , Cass wins.
#20 Posted by Saren (25125 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers: I created the ambush scenario because I figured X-23's senses would help her provide a counter to it.
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#21 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1641 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane
What about the selective morals ? 
 
And puting X-23 in an ambush scenario purely because her sense would allow her to react to them better than if she didn't have them makes no sense , it's like giving batgirl 3 free punches just because X-23's healing factor  would allow her to take them.
#22 Posted by Saren (25125 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers: I changed that later down the thread, morals are off for both of them now.
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#23 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1641 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane
Should have edited the OP.

 

Whatever I just think it's a spite thread.

#24 Posted by Superskrull86 (1806 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm...I got to say X-23 for this one. Good thinking giving Cain the Murmasa blade.
#25 Posted by Saren (25125 posts) - - Show Bio
@Superskrull86 said:
Hmm...I got to say X-23 for this one. Good thinking giving Cain the Murmasa blade.
Yeah, I was trying to keep it even. I didn't think anyone could call it spite.
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#26 Posted by cascadeking09 (6698 posts) - - Show Bio

Cass with the muramasa blades is overkill.

#27 Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (84704 posts) - - Show Bio

Was done before Here. But the OP gives a little more detail so might as well leave it open. Just going off from Cass' latest performances and feats, I'd say she's not even half the badass she use to be.

#28 Posted by cascadeking09 (6698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler: There must be something going around lol.
#29 Posted by Saren (25125 posts) - - Show Bio

*snikt*

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#30 Posted by cascadeking09 (6698 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane: what is snikt?
#31 Posted by The_Mayhem_Theory (1057 posts) - - Show Bio
Two of my most favored characters. However for the fight, I'm leaning toward X-23.
#32 Posted by Morgaine_Levesque (2073 posts) - - Show Bio
@The_Mayhem_Theory said:
Two of my most favored characters. However for the fight, I'm leaning toward X-23.
What makes you say X-23?
#33 Posted by God_Spawn (38396 posts) - - Show Bio
@cascadeking09 said:
@CitizenBane: what is snikt?
The sound of Wolverine and relative's claws coming out.
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#34 Posted by The_Mayhem_Theory (1057 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morgaine_de_Bourbon said:
@The_Mayhem_Theory said:
Two of my most favored characters. However for the fight, I'm leaning toward X-23.
What makes you say X-23?
I don't think Cassandra's skills outweigh Laura's own skills, superhuman abilities and adamantium claws.
#35 Posted by God_Spawn (38396 posts) - - Show Bio
@The_Mayhem_Theory said:
@Morgaine_de_Bourbon said:
@The_Mayhem_Theory said:
Two of my most favored characters. However for the fight, I'm leaning toward X-23.
What makes you say X-23?
I don't think Cassandra's skills outweigh Laura's own skills, superhuman abilities and adamantium claws.
The only thing Laura has on Cass is durability and healing all which are nullified due to the M blade, Cass's speed is on par or above Laura's and Cass has taken it to opponents that would put Laura down ie beating DS who can compared to Wolverine in skill level something Laura only does when Logan holds back. I don't like using ABC logic but I feel it is appropriate here.
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#36 Posted by Baltoro (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

Just for the record Cassandra is in a different speed tier.   Laura is gonna look like she is fighting in slow motion.  With Muramasa negating the healing factor Cassandra can be flashy and one shot x-23 with the leopard blow.
 

#37 Posted by Cochise (682 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn said:
@Cass has taken it to opponents that would put Laura down ie beating DS 
  
Cassandra has never beaten Deathstroke and has admitted that he is faster and stronger than her, that she has problems reading his body language, and that he toys with her. Which is pretty consistent with both of their presentations and isn't a knock against her by any means. 
 
Without the Muramasa blade Cassandra isn't winning this one. There's no way she's sneaking up on X-23 with X's enhanced senses, so forget about a sneak attack. In a fight, both are close enough in speed and skill that these won't be factors. But X-23 has the capacity to kill Cassandra with one hit; Cassandra doesn't have that going for her. X-23 also has a ridiculously potent healing factor, one that can heal grevious/fatal wounds in combat. X-23 also has a reach advantage with her claws. Pressure points won't be of much help to Cassandra since Wolverine has shown exceptional resistance to them in his Frank Miller mini (pressure points that would have killed a normal person just made him angry) and X-23 is his clone. 

With Cassandra using the Muramasa blade it's really close and can go either way.
 

#38 Posted by Mercy_ (91887 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise I agree with a lot of what you're saying, buy I will say this. Cass has consistent speed feats that put her on a completely different level of reaction than Laura. So that's gonna be a factor here. Laura's senses are extremely well-honed, but there's only so much that can do against somebody who can move that much faster. They both have similar skill levels, albeit they're trained in different ways. Cass is more of a martial artist, Laura is more of a brawler, but I don't see that playing a huge part here. Agreed on Laura's healing factor, but Cass is fast enough to land serious hits on her and with the Muramasa blades, that can most definitely be fatal. As for the pressure point resistance, does it state whether that's due to anatomy/healing factor or to training?
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#39 Edited by God_Spawn (38396 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise: My bad but I really don't care if Slade stated he is faster or stronger, he also stated he can't beat Cass in h2h and has to be in her head, it's been stated somewhere else he can't beat Cass and had to drug her, and in a Teen Titans 46 Nightwing had to pull Cass back so she wouldn't kill him. Deathstroke also stated Cass could beat Batman so I'm likely to believe with out strategic intervention by DS, he can't beat Cassandra in h2h.
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#40 Posted by God_Spawn (38396 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:

As for the pressure point resistance, does it state whether that's due to anatomy/healing factor or to training?

More of a healing factor thing.
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#41 Posted by Mercy_ (91887 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn Thanks :)
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#42 Posted by cascadeking09 (6698 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn said:
@cascadeking09 said:
@CitizenBane: what is snikt?
The sound of Wolverine and relative's claws coming out.
Lol. 
@Cochise said:
@god_spawn said:
@Cass has taken it to opponents that would put Laura down ie beating DS 
  
Cassandra has never beaten Deathstroke and has admitted that he is faster and stronger than her, that she has problems reading his body language, and that he toys with her. Which is pretty consistent with both of their presentations and isn't a knock against her by any means. 
 
Without the Muramasa blade Cassandra isn't winning this one. There's no way she's sneaking up on X-23 with X's enhanced senses, so forget about a sneak attack. In a fight, both are close enough in speed and skill that these won't be factors. But X-23 has the capacity to kill Cassandra with one hit; Cassandra doesn't have that going for her. X-23 also has a ridiculously potent healing factor, one that can heal grevious/fatal wounds in combat. X-23 also has a reach advantage with her claws. Pressure points won't be of much help to Cassandra since Wolverine has shown exceptional resistance to them in his Frank Miller mini (pressure points that would have killed a normal person just made him angry) and X-23 is his clone. 

With Cassandra using the Muramasa blade it's really close and can go either way.
I disagree with that. Cass is just as skilled if not more skilled than Laura in h2h and the same goes for her speed, she also still has the ability to read body language so that makes it even more difficult for her to land a hit. And also there is no way that laura would kill her with one it, Cass is very durable. I think the muramasa blades just make this a sure win for her because if she can't heal she'll be much easier to put down and stay down for a wile.
#43 Edited by difficlus (10632 posts) - - Show Bio

Cass takes this one going by several points made about her speed, skill and overall badass-ness. Also cassandra has taken numerous shots from a sniper rifle without relenting her attack. Any clw stabs will be ignored. 

#44 Posted by Lance Uppercut (22979 posts) - - Show Bio
@cascadeking09 said:
@god_spawn said:
@cascadeking09 said:
@CitizenBane: what is snikt?
The sound of Wolverine and relative's claws coming out.
Lol. 
@Cochise said:
@god_spawn said:
@Cass has taken it to opponents that would put Laura down ie beating DS 
  
Cassandra has never beaten Deathstroke and has admitted that he is faster and stronger than her, that she has problems reading his body language, and that he toys with her. Which is pretty consistent with both of their presentations and isn't a knock against her by any means. 
 
Without the Muramasa blade Cassandra isn't winning this one. There's no way she's sneaking up on X-23 with X's enhanced senses, so forget about a sneak attack. In a fight, both are close enough in speed and skill that these won't be factors. But X-23 has the capacity to kill Cassandra with one hit; Cassandra doesn't have that going for her. X-23 also has a ridiculously potent healing factor, one that can heal grevious/fatal wounds in combat. X-23 also has a reach advantage with her claws. Pressure points won't be of much help to Cassandra since Wolverine has shown exceptional resistance to them in his Frank Miller mini (pressure points that would have killed a normal person just made him angry) and X-23 is his clone. 

With Cassandra using the Muramasa blade it's really close and can go either way.
I disagree with that. Cass is just as skilled if not more skilled than Laura in h2h and the same goes for her speed, she also still has the ability to read body language so that makes it even more difficult for her to land a hit. And also there is no way that laura would kill her with one it, Cass is very durable. I think the muramasa blades just make this a sure win for her because if she can't heal she'll be much easier to put down and stay down for a wile.
Really? Because from what I've seen, she's not durable to withstand any sort of claw strike. Without the Muramasa blade she can't do any lasting damage before X manages to mangle her. With of course, it seems redundant. She needs the M-Blade to win either way. 
#45 Posted by God_Spawn (38396 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress: Np
 
@cascadeking09: What's with the lol? I'm serious whenever their claws come out, it makes a snikt sound right there on the panel.
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#46 Posted by difficlus (10632 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lance Uppercut said:
@cascadeking09 said:

@Cochise said:
@god_spawn said:
@Cass has taken it to opponents that would put Laura down ie beating DS 
  
Cassandra has never beaten Deathstroke and has admitted that he is faster and stronger than her, that she has problems reading his body language, and that he toys with her. Which is pretty consistent with both of their presentations and isn't a knock against her by any means. 
 
Without the Muramasa blade Cassandra isn't winning this one. There's no way she's sneaking up on X-23 with X's enhanced senses, so forget about a sneak attack. In a fight, both are close enough in speed and skill that these won't be factors. But X-23 has the capacity to kill Cassandra with one hit; Cassandra doesn't have that going for her. X-23 also has a ridiculously potent healing factor, one that can heal grevious/fatal wounds in combat. X-23 also has a reach advantage with her claws. Pressure points won't be of much help to Cassandra since Wolverine has shown exceptional resistance to them in his Frank Miller mini (pressure points that would have killed a normal person just made him angry) and X-23 is his clone. 

With Cassandra using the Muramasa blade it's really close and can go either way.
I disagree with that. Cass is just as skilled if not more skilled than Laura in h2h and the same goes for her speed, she also still has the ability to read body language so that makes it even more difficult for her to land a hit. And also there is no way that laura would kill her with one it, Cass is very durable. I think the muramasa blades just make this a sure win for her because if she can't heal she'll be much easier to put down and stay down for a wile.
Really? Because from what I've seen, she's not durable to withstand any sort of claw strike. Without the Muramasa blade she can't do any lasting damage before X manages to mangle her. With of course, it seems redundant. She needs the M-Blade to win either way. 
Is X-23 really that durable? normal batarangs could slit x-23's throat. 
#47 Posted by cascadeking09 (6698 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn: O, I wasn't loling at your post I was loling because now I know what CitizenBane did that for.
 
@Lance Uppercut said:
Really? Because from what I've seen, she's not durable to withstand any sort of claw strike. Without the Muramasa blade she can't do any lasting damage before X manages to mangle her. With of course, it seems redundant. She needs the M-Blade to win either way. 
She's taken hits from superhumans before, she's survived being electrocuted and barley escaping an explosion, she's also been impaled and survived that too. Someone above mentioned something about her taking shots from a snipe but I haven't seen that for myself.
#48 Posted by Lance Uppercut (22979 posts) - - Show Bio
@difficlus said:
@Lance Uppercut said:
@cascadeking09 said:

@Cochise said:
@god_spawn said:
@Cass has taken it to opponents that would put Laura down ie beating DS 
  
Cassandra has never beaten Deathstroke and has admitted that he is faster and stronger than her, that she has problems reading his body language, and that he toys with her. Which is pretty consistent with both of their presentations and isn't a knock against her by any means. 
 
Without the Muramasa blade Cassandra isn't winning this one. There's no way she's sneaking up on X-23 with X's enhanced senses, so forget about a sneak attack. In a fight, both are close enough in speed and skill that these won't be factors. But X-23 has the capacity to kill Cassandra with one hit; Cassandra doesn't have that going for her. X-23 also has a ridiculously potent healing factor, one that can heal grevious/fatal wounds in combat. X-23 also has a reach advantage with her claws. Pressure points won't be of much help to Cassandra since Wolverine has shown exceptional resistance to them in his Frank Miller mini (pressure points that would have killed a normal person just made him angry) and X-23 is his clone. 

With Cassandra using the Muramasa blade it's really close and can go either way.
I disagree with that. Cass is just as skilled if not more skilled than Laura in h2h and the same goes for her speed, she also still has the ability to read body language so that makes it even more difficult for her to land a hit. And also there is no way that laura would kill her with one it, Cass is very durable. I think the muramasa blades just make this a sure win for her because if she can't heal she'll be much easier to put down and stay down for a wile.
Really? Because from what I've seen, she's not durable to withstand any sort of claw strike. Without the Muramasa blade she can't do any lasting damage before X manages to mangle her. With of course, it seems redundant. She needs the M-Blade to win either way. 
Is X-23 really that durable? normal batarangs could slit x-23's throat. 
Sure, it could. And Laura will heal. Cass unfortunately won't. 
#49 Posted by difficlus (10632 posts) - - Show Bio
@cascadeking09 said:   
@Lance Uppercut said:
Really? Because from what I've seen, she's not durable to withstand any sort of claw strike. Without the Muramasa blade she can't do any lasting damage before X manages to mangle her. With of course, it seems redundant. She needs the M-Blade to win either way. 
She's taken hits from superhumans before, she's survived being electrocuted and barley escaping an explosion, she's also been impaled and survived that too. Someone above mentioned something about her taking shots from a snipe but I haven't seen that for myself.
i also want to put out that she has dodged lightning before. 
#50 Posted by cascadeking09 (6698 posts) - - Show Bio
@difficlus: From that  staff thing? I don't really consider that as lightning dodging, but close to it.