Cassandra Cain vs Kenichi Shirahama

Morals Off. Morals On he wouldn't even fight her. Stats are Equalized. Strictly H2H.

Who wins? And why?

I don't know a thing about Kenichi Shirahama...can you show me some feats?...scans?...

But just letting you know, unless Kenichi has some type of special abillitie..."stats equalized", means, massive stomp in Cassie's favor.

@bat_girl_cc: On my phone atm so I will try to do it later. What do you mean if stats are equalized he gets stomped? Or are you talking about the body reading?

Exactly...no-body makes Batman vs Cassie, or Lady Shiva vs Cassie, or Richard Dragon vs Cassie...anymore, because, Cassie's Body Reading, would give Cassie the win, even despite, those characters being more skilled than her...that's why, from time to time, people makes threads like, spider-man vs cassandra cain...wolverine vs cassandra cain...deathstroke vs cassandra cain...because winning or losing, it's worth the debate, because meta-human stats vs special abillitie's (Body Reading)...if you bring a very good fighter to the table, that depends on the use of his super-human stats, and you put him against Cassie, and you take away his "powers"...you make it unfair...it's like Wonder Woman (depowered to peak-human level) vs cassandra cain...see?...but, like i said, i don't know that character, first let me see some feats/scans of him, but "judging" by the set up...i smell a stomp coming...lol, anyway, i'll give this one a try, and i'll do some research on Kenichi Shirahama.

@bat_girl_cc: He has the exact same ability execpt i do believe his ability takes it about a bit higher though.

With stats equal, Kenichi is going to have to rely hard on his Seikuken. Which is pretty much a field around him that lets him be instantly aware of whatever penetrates the field around him, allowing him to instantly block and evade.

And that isn't even going into Ryusei Seikuken.

With equal stats there is no way I can discern who would win.

Body reading is great and all but I don't think it is the reason no one makes those threads anymore, I think its cause like a dozen of them have been made and we aren't allowed by the rules to make repeat threads. Most of those fights are debatable which is why they have been made and not locked, but that is a discussion for another thread, this is about Kenichi vs Cassandra. In character Kenichi will lose because he A. Doesn't fight girls outside of using only locks and holds because he doesn't feel comfortable hitting , especially in a real fight. and B. He is a slow starter unless he is fighting for a cause he truly believes in or to protect a friend. So in character kenichi will lose to Cassandra everytime , maily because of A. because kenichi has insane damage soak.

In terms of raw abilities and skill, Kenichi has Ryuusui Seikuken which is Body Reading +, it not only reads the opponents movement by reading their flow but allows the user to perfectly react to that person's movements and then counterattack before their attack even beings. It has three steps/levels , all of which Kenichi has exhibited in real combat multiple times.

1. First Level: Read the opponent's flow.
2. Second Level: Combining the opponent's movements with your own.
3. Third Level: Overpower the opponent by anticipating his moves and use his flow against him before he even thinks of it.

Where as body Reading relies on reading the movement and subtle body language to predict Ryuusui Seikuken takes it a step further and reads a persons emotions and practically their mind, its almost Spider sense level and perfectly integrated into his martial arts making it honestly the perfect counter to body reading. In addition he has exhibited the "Inner Eye' which from a combination of experience and training allows him to follow movements of beings FAR above his reaction speed which only adds to the effectiveness of Ryuusui Seikuken. So at that point it would come down to Martial Skill and stats. Stats (for the record though, Martial Artists in HSDK are far above peak human and quite easily meta-human and super-human) are equalized so then we have martial skill. Cass has been practicing martial arts for much longer of a period than Kenichi who only has a about a year and a half under his belt, but Kenichi has been training with 6 Masters from HDSK, each arguably much stronger than any normal DC martial artist bar some "Martial Artists" like Karate Kid and Batman One Million who both have extremely superhuman feats like kicking asteroids apart and stealing souls and this training has allowed him to keep up and defeat numerous other opponents who have been training in Martial Arts all their lives, if I had to pick who was more skilled based off of feats i would say Kenichi.

But as it stands the fight is stacked against him since he A. Doesn't fight girls and B. Stats are equalized so one of his greatest strength's is sealed so Cass would win.

@cerberus369616: Took Morals off, I even mentioned it in the OP. Also when I said stats equalized I meant physical strength really didn't mean skill.

@justsomerandomkid: My bad, lol I should have read the OP more carefully. and I know you didn't mean skills for stats equalized, i said it was the only deciding factor. Kenichi probably wins morals off, Ryuusui Seikuken seems to be a perfect counter to Body Reading as long as he performs it correctly which he should be able too. His problem with starting fights slow could still be a problem so in a few rounds Cass could take him out quick but I think he takes a good 6/10, most of the disciples in HDSK could easily be on par with a DC martial artist in terms of skill and Kenichi is pretty much expert level now so I think he has the skill edge a bit and Cass' training with Bruce improved her abilities with out Body Reading so she won't get stomped but but Ryuusui Seikuken is the better skill imho and will give Kenichi the majority.

@cerberus369616: Kenichi has already gotten rid of his problem of starting slowly when he fought with Ethan.

As a matter of fact he went into a right full of confidence against Saiga's disciple and genuinely wanted to fight him and he didn't even know why. Kenichi honestly is likely stronger than Miu right now. But yeah. Kenichi's Seikuken combos can deal with most street martial artists.

@blackwind: He definitely hasn't gotten over it because it's been mentioned in every fight since Ethan including his current match against Kajima Satomi. Miu even confirms it.

So his slow starting will definitely give Cass a few at least. And i'll also have to disagree that he is as strong as Miu. She has better physicals than him still in pretty much everything except endurance and durability and while he has Ryuusui Seikuken he's shown having trouble using it on her because his crush on her breaks his concentration and on top of that she unlocked her Dou Ki which amps her blows and ferocity significantly. She still has to hold back a little bit in sparring even if he is much closer than he ever was before.

Cass is the best martial artist ever.

unless kenichi activates his protect miu BS power up he loses.

Bu the thing is, amost every TOP fighter as "a degree" of Body Reading...but Cassie's Body Reading is one a complete different level...she was trainned to be a killer, since she was born, Body Language, was her first language, that's why she can read a person, easier than she can speak a word...she doesn't even have to really focus on her opponent...it only takes a mere glance for her to know almost everything there's to know about her opponent, from Reading his muscles to know what move will he do next, to what is he thinking/feeling...

Here, read what is stated on this scan:

pretty much what i said before...

And here:

Cassandra Cain, can recognise a person just by the way they move...she can also know about what someone is thinking or feeling, with one look.

Actually, from what i gather from Kenichi, they're speciall abillities are quite similar, Kenichi's 3 stages are very similar to Cassie's Body Reading, but like i said before, Cassie has been trainned practicaly since she was born, to read Body Language, she is more confortable with it, than reading, or even speaking...and i belive, she is also more confortable with it, than Kenichi is with his special abillity.

As for Kenichi's stats being higher than Cassie's that doesn't matter here, since the OP stated that they're stats are equalized here.

Cassandra Cain is only peak-human by assumption and by logic...because she has alot of feats, (agillity, speed, stricking power, endurance, etc) that are pretty much meta-human)...i can post some of them, if you want proof, or if you just wish to see them.

And after making a quick research on Kenichi, this is a very good fight, and could go either way, but i'm leaning more towards Cassie, for the reasons i stated above.

To me, Cassie wins here 6/10

@cerberus369616: It still isn't really to the point where it could be a hinderence though, IMO. Sure he is at his best when he is protecting someone but he doesn't necessarily need it anymore.

Also I don't see how Cass' body reading is better than Ryusei Seikuken.

@blackwind: you certainly entitled to your opinion but how is not fighting to your full potential right away not a hindrance? That would be like saying Flash not using his full speed in a fight against another Flash who does use his full speed isn't a hindrance. He consistently get's outpaced in the start of every fight and his crazy endurance is what allows him to tank blows until he is ready to fight. If Cass takes advantage of that and uses a nerve strike or something similar he'll lose because of it, just like his 1st fight against Tirawit Kokin where he DIED because of his inability to start his fights at full capacity. If it wasn't for Ryusuui Seikuken being superior imho to Cass's body reading once utilized I would give the majority to Cass because of this being a serious weakness in most battles, especially against people with nerve strikes who can end the fight in one move despite his durability.

@bat_girl_cc : I'm aware that Cass is more used to Body reading than Kenichi but kenichi has shown the same degree of mastery as cass once he activates the technique. he has read people's actions before they even being to initiate them like in his most recent fight where he predicts Kajima is about to go after one of his friends before Kajima even begins to move. The difference here is in how they use them. Cass tends to use her body reading defensively to avoid attacks (on account of batman saying her defense is what suffered the most when she lost her Body reading) where as the essence of Ryuusui Seikuken is to counter attack before the person can even really attack , reacting the instant a person attacks to strike them at their most vulnerable, even the best of the best can't perfectly attack and perfectly defend at the same time, its simply more integrated into his combat style. But yea I agree the fight would be very close regardless witha series fo counterattacks and evasive maneuvers.

@cerberus369616:

" I'm aware that Cass is more used to Body reading than Kenichi but kenichi has shown the same degree of mastery as cass once he activates the technique. he has read people's actions before they even being to initiate them like in his most recent fight where he predicts Kajima is about to go after one of his friends before Kajima even begins to move. The difference here is in how they use them. Cass tends to use her body reading defensively to avoid attacks (on account of batman saying her defense is what suffered the most when she lost her Body reading) where as the essence of Ryuusui Seikuken is to counter attack before the person can even really attack , reacting the instant a person attacks to strike them at their most vulnerable, even the best of the best can't perfectly attack and perfectly defend at the same time, its simply more integrated into his combat style. But yea I agree the fight would be very close regardless witha series fo counterattacks and evasive maneuvers. "

Cassie's Body Reading, tells her, her opponents weaknesses, what their are going to do next, and even what thei're thinking/feeling.

As you can see in the scan above, Cassie's Body Reading also tells her, her opponents weaknesses...just for you to know, that it's not all about defense...it's also about offense!...what Batman said, is that her attacks are fine (even without her Body Reading) but obviously, with it, it's better for her.

Just take a look, at my last 2 post's.

this ends in sex.

I actually see kenichi winning. Kenichi is a "slow starter" because of his morals and that he doesnt want to hurt anyone in a fight, but a no moral kenichi will start strong right off the back. Also, ryusei seikuken is on the same level as cass' body reading, especially if he were to combine it with korui nuki, which is when kenichi finds the weakest part of someones defense and pools all of his strength into one attack, which breacks their defense.

Also, I believe kenichi is better physically except maybe reaction time.

Oh someone revived this thread? I'm pretty sure Kenichi wins. His body reading is better for fighting where as Cassandra's body reading is better for practical use.

@bat_girl_cc: It's the same for Kenichi too. His reading allows him to see the openings no matter how small they are and effectively hit them.

Jeez!...i barely even remembered this thread :P

Anyway, after re-rading the post's on this thread, i gotta say, i stand by my first thoughts...to me, with stats equalized Kenichi loses, simply because, judging by what i gathered about Kenichi's "Reading", i think that Cassie's Body Reading goes deeper, and it's overall better, so i think that she should win here.

#

The stats are equalized here...apart from that, they are both very skilled...so it really just comes down to, who has the best "special abillity"?...and after gathering some intel on Kenichi's "reading" i belive that Cassie's is better, so i vote on her.

I didnt see that the stats were equalized in the op. my bad : P

But on topic, i have to disagree. Ryusei seikuken, to me, is better tailored to combat than Cassie's reading. the two special techniques the elder tought to kenichi (ryusei seikuken and korui nuki) are borderline hax, and i just dont see cass being able to keep up, even with equalized stats.

Cass got this

By stats equalized does that mean you are taking away Kenichi's crazy high durability?

Cain

KENICHI!!!

Kenichi. More skilled.

Love cass but she isnt beating kenichi.

#

But the thing is, in the way i see this scenario happening, this is basically a depowered Kenichi vs Cassandra Cain...no-matter what crazy feats has Kenichi performed with his special abillities...he's not going to to be able to do them, here...Kenichi is a mid-tier...but here, his agillity, durabillity, strengh, speed, and stamina, are the same as Cassandra's, since stats are equalized...so, Kenichi's personal abillities, are not going to be as effective in this scenario, as they are/were normally...you know what i meant?...like "nerfed"...either that, or Cassie's stats get amped to the point that thei're at the same level, so we can have, the "stats equalized" rule.

Either Kenichi won't perform as good as he usually does, due to being kinda of "nerfed" here, in order to have equal stats to Cassandra's...or he will be just like he is...and Cassie's stats get amped, in order to make them equal...either way, it really just comes down, to, who's speciall technique is better...for me, it's Cassandra's, and i have explained way, in some of the post's above, you can take a look if you want, this is a small thread so far, anyway...(just one page) :p

If you think that Kenichi's technique is better, then, it's cool, i mean...it's really flipping a coin, here...either way, it would be a good match to see.

I guess that he is...either that, or he's putting Cassandra's at the same level as Kenichi's...so there's no advantage for Kenichi there.

You make a good point here. both techniques are very similar, we just see each of the characters we're backing's technique as a shade better.

either way, equalizing the stats doesnt really affect kenichi too much, as he started the series as being physically weaker and slower than cassie for the first few volumes and is always portrayed as fighting people stronger than him (especially in sho kano's case).

but i guess it doesnt really matter. i dont think our debate will change either of our minds...

" You make a good point here. both techniques are very similar, we just see each of the characters we're backing's technique as a shade better. "

This.

In my opinion, in the end, it all comes to that.

Post #37

Bump.

Kenichi

Kenichi. Especially after the ending where in the epilogue.

Bump

@justsomerandomkid: kenichi wins.

@bat_girl_cc: Honestly, looking into it in depth, I take back my "almost the same" comment from earlier. I believe ryusui seikuken is simply better than cassie'so body reading simply because it almost allows him to possess his opponents through their ki

Kenichi

@bat_girl_cc: I'd be willing to debate with you on this one

shouldn't Kenichi still have the advantage due to Ki usage? I'm a bit hazy on Kenichi's series but doesn't Ki increase their damage output? i might be wrong.

Hm... tough deicision. Cass 6/10

Kenichi.